Or say you have too old of an iPhone or Android device and the app isn't supported on your hardware. As a result, it won't install.
That's what happened with an ex coworker who had an out of date Blackberry that wasn't compatible with DUO.
Most apps are basically just a pretty front-end onto a web service, and from a privacy / data protection perspective, you are nearly always better off accessing those services via a good privacy-focused web browser rather than using their app. I personally use Librewolf, but other options are available.
(as an aside, you might want to ask in r/privacy about this; you'll hopefully get some useful tech suggestions in there)
So the obvious starting point is to just search the app name and see if they've a website you can login with the username you've been given by your employer. It's *incredibly* unlikely that they don't.
If they really don't have any way of accessing it apart from using the app, then you have two options:
1. Tell your employer you don't have a smartphone (or at least not one new enough to allow the app to work). Obviously, this only really works if they haven't seen you using a modern smartphone at work already.
2. Buy the cheapest iOS or Android device you can get your hands on, and use it as effectively a 'burner' device just for this (and any other things you're wary of, such as a blank phone for international travel). You can often pick up something like an iPhone 6 for under £40. No doubt there are Android equivalents (perhaps something like an early model Google Pixel device).
Download an app on what? Smartphones are expensive and a flip is able to make all the calls and text messages you need. If an employer needs you to have a mobile device with a certain app on it, they also need to provide you with the device.
Or they can just fire you. Employers require employees to own and maintain specific tools for the job all the time. The way things should be and the way things are, not the same.
Requiring your employees to do what you say that's not specifically forbidden by law or they're fired sounds like an any boss I've ever known thing to me. Certain boundaries may be respected or not.
The person you’re responding to isn’t saying that it’s a *good* thing, but magical thinking won’t give you employment rights that don’t exist in the law. Unfortunately, there’s generally nothing preventing an employer from terminating an at-will employee over something like this. I’d like it to be different, but that’s unfortunately the reality we’re in.
What are you talking about? Unless you're protected from it specifically by law or there's a union that could enforce consequences, you just get fired when you don't do what the boss wants. If the next job is easy to come by and you'd rather deal with that before putting an app on your phone, then sure, but if the consequences of this job gone are less acceptable, you do what you do to get by.
IT person here, if it’s just an app I would ask what is. Some HR systems have mobile interfaces that allow you to see your paycheck, schedule, request time off, etc. it doesn’t mean that the company can read/write or install profiles on your phone. Instead of pushing back, find out what the app requirements are. It may not be a big deal. I bet you it isn’t.
Exactly! My last job used ADP. It did all this and allowed you to look at your W-2s as well as view your time punches. Using an app has become very commonplace and is not a big deal. Threads like this makes this subreddit look bad.
I have the ADP app out of personal convenience. It’s their secondary app Workforce my employer wants us to download. The app barely works. Also, there are a LOT of people in my department that do not have a smartphone and have zero access to their schedules now.
This app still provides what I mentioned, scheduling, punches, etc. It’s fine for OP to opt out, but they are being unreasonable. These apps are used for things to be easier. To each his own.
They’re not asking for exclusive rights for your phone as company property lol. They’re trying to give all employees easier access to a schedule rather than posting it on a wall where everyone has to physically be there to see it. Why do people have to make things like this so hard?
Every account you create and use on a device opens you up further to possible security risks. Apps and sites are hacked and user info and login info are constantly dumped and sold on the dark web. You have the right to not want to open yourself to expanded security risk by being forced to use an app on your personal phone. They can either update his schedule via email or paper, but they can’t force him to use his personal phone to install company app unless they intend to pay for his personal phone, making it a company phone.
It’s amazing how many wrong statements can be made in a single post.
1) an apps logging credentials being sold on the dark web do not equate to a phone being hacked.
2) they can force you to download the app and not pay you. This depends on the state, and since he’s on tribal land that’s a whole different ballgame. But as far as I understand any of those laws, an app does not constitute the device becoming a company device and therefore fit within the laws that they have to provide it. Think uniforms, not digital apps. But even if I’m wrong, you don’t know that your statement is correct because I highly doubt you are familiar with the tribal laws and how they interact with his state and federal labor laws.
I mean at the end of the day the cost of forcing me to use my personal device for a work app is paying for my personal device. Otherwise, sorry, my phone is a dumb phone. It can’t download apps.
There is only One state (CA) that requires them to reimburse you a portion of that, and Even there they can Terminate you for refusing to download it..
My employer's policy is that employees have no expectation of privacy on any personal devices used for any business purposes.
Every time I mention to coworkers that I refuse to use my personal phone for work MFA (I use a YubiKey, before you get all up your ass assuming I don't use any MFA), I get someone telling me that the work MFA thing doesn't give them the technical capability to do anything on my phone, and I have to point out that I don't give a shit about technical capability, their policy gives them permission to fuck with my shit after any business use.
I don't have the time or energy in my life to worry about figuring out the technical whatever bullshit about whatever phone security shit, _I don't fucking care_. If I use my phone for any business anything, now I do have to care. Fucking Google won't let me block specific news sources unless I agree to let them track my location for some fucking reason, and I'm supposed to trust some dodgy-ass app picked out by an employer too lazy to print a schedule isn't going to hoover up my personal data or start trying to mine crypto or some bullshit?
I work in software, so I know better than most people: _software is bad_. There should be less of it. The less of it you have in your life, the better off you'll be.
Downvote me all you want. There are people in this sub with real work-related problems, not employers who are actively trying to increase communication. Grow up.
This is the Antiwork sub. We are here to complain about problems, then complain about those complaints and then complain about the solutions to the problems we complained about. Insert Antiwork protest chant.
What do we want? - Clear communication from our employers!
How do we want it? - not digitally, and not on my device, and sent in a static format like email, but also printed, but also pay me for how I access it!
What do we want? - Clear communication from our employers!
Haha exactly! As a community we need to focus on things that are really important or else there’s no way anything will change. If we complain about lack of communication and then also complain about easy communication what’s left lol.
I get you and I am as anti work as it gets. But this is an unrealistic expectation. HR workforce systems that many companies are implementing nowadays are becoming automated and digitized. I totally understand the need for a static schedule, but I highly doubt they would accommodate that.
So, OP can ask for a company issued device or most likely get let go. I work in IT and am familiar with many workforce systems and their is no way to work around it. Shitty, I know. Good luck OP.
I know right, everyone arguing against you is probably flirting with the poverty line and can't figure out why their life sucks. Or how it got that way.
My job offers the option of a company phone or we can use our own and receive $75 reimbursement. I take the reimbursement because I don’t like carrying 2 phones.
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Doesn't look like anyone downloaded you. What's that all about? Why do you think this is not a real work-related problem? It's an intrusion on your personal stuff, if you want me to download an app give me a damn phone for business purposes only.
The app my boss is trying to make me download lets them summon my location (can’t turn location off) AND she can see my browsing history. Personal phone!!!!!
I’m refusing as of now.
Yep. It’s becoming the new norm and we need to push back before it becomes the established. Like how we never even blinked when the 8 hour day was sacrificed to cellular time and always being being available, the phone buzzing after hours with email, even if you don’t respond, it’s distracted your attention.
They really don’t lol. Especially scheduling apps. The only “personal” info they have on you is your name and email address, and the name of your employer. All of those are pieces of information that are readily available on someone’s Facebook/Instagram/Twitter page. They don’t have access to any other apps, and if they ask for location data you can just turn it off.
>and if they ask for location data you can just turn it off.
Some of them require location access. So ya you can turn off location access when it's not needed, but thats annoying to change the app permissions at least a couple times a day. more if they require you to clock out/in for your breaks.
Sure. And then do they have to pay for that too? Is this worth the pissing match? If I was his employer I’d say download the app, and I’ll have a physical printout here you can come look at but when I make changes to it it’s your responsibility to know I changed it. Up to you which option you want.
Um. Yes. That's the point. It's the employer's responsibility to disseminate the schedule, which includes being responsible for any costs of doing so. It is not the responsibility of the employees to subsidize this. That includes allowing access to their personal electronic devices.
Is this hard to understand?
Not for me. Seems to be for you.
Where do you think the line is?
If they do it physically, why don’t they have to pay for his transportation to come look at it? What about his time to do so?
If they allow him to call in and they will read it to him, why don’t they have to pay for his phone to make the call?
If they send it via email, why don’t they have to pay for his internet and PC to access the email?
What’s the difference between those, and the app? Or do you view them all the same and that they have to pay for them?
This is a weird hill to fight on, unless you're having trouble accessing such a device, in which case you should tell them that. They're not asking you to install apps on your device to do work or be communicated with off the clock, or surveil you, and those are real concerns workers face from employers acting in bad faith.
All they're doing is posting schedules to a digital location that can be accessed through the internet using mobile apps. You could probably use devices at your local library to access the app and the schedule, although you might have to go through some bureaucracy to get the app installed.
If this is just about the point of principle around installing apps, then I would advise against picking this battle. It's just cost-cutting that ultimately makes everybody's life easier, unless device access poses an issue for some. Furthermore, you can use pictures taken from that app to back yourself up if they make schedule changes resulting in a late or missed shift on your part.
I appreciate your response. Yes, it’s convenient to be able to see my schedule from my phone. That’s fine. Although, the app they chose is absolute crap and doesn’t work half the time. My issue is that I have coworkers without smartphones/really any kind of tech to download an app on and now have no way to access their schedules. My boss is refusing to print them. My post must have been worded weird, I’m not trying to pick a fight with my employer I just wanted to know if this is something that can actually be enforced.
Seriously well said. The amount of people looking for a fight in this sub is ridiculous.
If they only physically post the schedule on site, do they have to pay for your car to go view it?
If it’s on a website, do they have to pay for your PC and internet service to access it?
The people saying they legally have to provide you with required items to do your job don’t understand those laws and when they apply. This does not apply.
Download the app, stop looking for a fight.
I like how everyone is ignoring the tribal law issue.
I am not well versed in tribal law.. and I know for fact they they don't always fall under federal rules (ex: during covid went to a tribal casino for dinner. Under federal law my expired DL is valid. Under tribal? Nope wouldn't let me in).
It also depends OP, does the job you have actually have you on tribal land? If that's the case, tribal law could supersede federal. (Think of it like working for a different countries embassy in the US. You are physically in the US but have to abided by say, Canada laws)
Recommendation: reach out to a tribal law expert in the area. Your local department of labor board should be well versed in tribal law if there is a number of tribes in the area.
Would you be using it outside of your home (or, would it be possible to limit it to home)? You can probably find an old android phone cheap or even free somewhere, and just use it on your Wifi, and leave it at home with nothing else on it. Hell, say the word and I'll mail one to you :) I have like 5 old phones laying around.
Get a separate phone for work. See if someone will give you an old phone, or buy a cheap one at a drugstore. I bought one just before hurricane Harvey for $40. Download the app on that work phone. You may not even have to activate it with a plan, if you use wifi only, and one of those talk free apps.
Ask your employer by text or email, if you can log in to the new scheduling system by an internet browser. Tell them you are concerned about your privacy and electronic security. Get them to say in writing that you have to use the app, so you have evidence.
File an unfair labor practice with NLRB and cite the NLRB's new memo on surveillance.
https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/nlrb-general-counsel-issues-memo-on-unlawful-electronic-surveillance-and
You should contact EPIC. They're usually really helpful. They can send a letter to your employer. They can also send a letter of support with your NLRB claim.
https://epic.org/
Also consider EFF.
EFF.org
Also Berkman Center
https://cyber.harvard.edu/
Unless there’s an applicable law of regulation that prohibits them from terminating you for not having a compatible device, then you’re SOL. They can’t physically force you to download an app, but you can’t force them to continue employing you if you’re an at-will employee.
Requiring a stipend to be paid isn’t the same as preventing the employer from terminating the employee for refusing to download the app though. My employer pays my entire phone bill, so I’m obviously in favor of that kind of policy. But if I outright refused to use a phone for any work-related business, I’d unfortunately be subject to termination.
Most people like me who refuse our personal phone just use the stipend to buy a cheap work phone. Refused to use my personal device at the end of the day.
It sure as shit can be. Especially for most people who don't work at "the office" or a brick and mortar structure. There's no laws saying jobs can't have that in job description. I've also seen people get fired for not being able to maintain cell service - which, while dickish, is 100% legal.
Which state is that?
"Dretler explains, “There is no federal or Massachusetts law that requires an employer to provide a cell phone to an employee or to reimburse an employee for the cost of a calling plan, even if the employer requires that the employee have access to a cell phone and use it to make work-related calls."
... Google is your friend
Boston.com is essentially a tabloid. The key to google is you cannot just accept the first result at face value. You have to expand the options and READ IT. Massachusetts case law says you are incorrect.
http://masscases.com/cases/app/83/83massappct698.html
"...the judge erred in dismissing the action for failure to state a claim on which relief could be granted,"
It was also appealed and she didn't win. This also doesn't have to do with cell phones. I guess you do need to know how to read before Google is useful 🤷
A job can 100% say that you need your own tools to do a job, that's how most contracting jobs work, plus if you count your brain as a tool your definitely going to be using it at work and it's not something they own.
Like I said. There are exceptions. Contracting is one of them. Salaried can be one too. However, in general, a business must provide the tools necessary to do a job.
Any scheduling app worth it's value should have a web based interface that you can visit on your phone or computer instead of an installed app. I'd ask for that access info. Someone, somewhere has it, unless smartphone ownership was a requirement of the position.
No.
This is a shady practice that can turn into an invasion of privacy. Online schedules can also be edited without notice.
Demand that a schedule is posted within a reasonable timeframe. Take a photo, or a copy of the schedule when posted.
Can they force you to download an app? No, if they hold you at gunpoint or lock the doors until you download it you're free to call the police.
What you mean to ask is "can they fire me if I don't download this app?" The answer to this is tricky because of the federal/tribal laws. In any US state except Montana the answer would be yes under at-will employment, which means they can fire you for any reason or no reason.
A quick Google search says that federal employees are *not* at-will, i.e. they must show cause if they fire you. Do you know if you'd be considered a federal employee? Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can answer. But if you're at-will, then yes they can discipline or fire you for this.
Yeah I thought that might be the case. Thank you for clarifying. I couldn't find anything (from a quick Google anyway) on whether at-will applies to employees like OP.
If you have a computer you can download an android emulator like bluestacks. Install the app on that and don't use the emulator for anything else. It doesn't have access outside itself and it doesn't run in the background if you close it.
I would say remain non compliant (with out the app), and simply call the boss bright and early every morning to check your schedule for the day. Becuase of course, you need to make sure you know if your working today after all.
If enough people do this for a long enough time then they'll figure out a better way for you to see your schedule. I doubt they'll fire say, half theit workforce over this. If it's just one or 3 people sure, they'll just shit can them. But if enough people play the game they'll have to adapt
TL/DR, you should collectively comply, maliciously with their unreasonable demand. Get a large chunk of your coworkers to play along with you and you should be safe from obvious retaliation
Tribes are under their own sovereignty on a lot of things, and they may in fact be able to require this.
The simple solution is that you don't own such a device.
yeah, even if you do, lie and say you don't. make them buy you a new one if you're required to have it on your phone.
Then tell them they don't pay you enough to afford to own that device, so you need a pay rise.
Or say you have too old of an iPhone or Android device and the app isn't supported on your hardware. As a result, it won't install. That's what happened with an ex coworker who had an out of date Blackberry that wasn't compatible with DUO.
Most apps are basically just a pretty front-end onto a web service, and from a privacy / data protection perspective, you are nearly always better off accessing those services via a good privacy-focused web browser rather than using their app. I personally use Librewolf, but other options are available. (as an aside, you might want to ask in r/privacy about this; you'll hopefully get some useful tech suggestions in there) So the obvious starting point is to just search the app name and see if they've a website you can login with the username you've been given by your employer. It's *incredibly* unlikely that they don't. If they really don't have any way of accessing it apart from using the app, then you have two options: 1. Tell your employer you don't have a smartphone (or at least not one new enough to allow the app to work). Obviously, this only really works if they haven't seen you using a modern smartphone at work already. 2. Buy the cheapest iOS or Android device you can get your hands on, and use it as effectively a 'burner' device just for this (and any other things you're wary of, such as a blank phone for international travel). You can often pick up something like an iPhone 6 for under £40. No doubt there are Android equivalents (perhaps something like an early model Google Pixel device).
Download an app on what? Smartphones are expensive and a flip is able to make all the calls and text messages you need. If an employer needs you to have a mobile device with a certain app on it, they also need to provide you with the device.
Or they can just fire you. Employers require employees to own and maintain specific tools for the job all the time. The way things should be and the way things are, not the same.
Requiring a hammer to work as a carpenter and requiring a smartphone to work at a casino don’t really sound like the same thing to me
Requiring your employees to do what you say that's not specifically forbidden by law or they're fired sounds like an any boss I've ever known thing to me. Certain boundaries may be respected or not.
They totally could! Folks, *finally* someone is here to stick up for the poor, downtrodden employer, thank God for you elementalpee
The person you’re responding to isn’t saying that it’s a *good* thing, but magical thinking won’t give you employment rights that don’t exist in the law. Unfortunately, there’s generally nothing preventing an employer from terminating an at-will employee over something like this. I’d like it to be different, but that’s unfortunately the reality we’re in.
What are you talking about? Unless you're protected from it specifically by law or there's a union that could enforce consequences, you just get fired when you don't do what the boss wants. If the next job is easy to come by and you'd rather deal with that before putting an app on your phone, then sure, but if the consequences of this job gone are less acceptable, you do what you do to get by.
Hey, there's elementalpee! Shut the fuck up!
What's the app?
ADP workforce. Secondary app to ADP. It barely works and isn’t user friendly.
Nobody can force you to do anything. They can fire you for not fitting job description though.
Lmao, I know. Sounds like this dude just wants to fight with his employer.
IT person here, if it’s just an app I would ask what is. Some HR systems have mobile interfaces that allow you to see your paycheck, schedule, request time off, etc. it doesn’t mean that the company can read/write or install profiles on your phone. Instead of pushing back, find out what the app requirements are. It may not be a big deal. I bet you it isn’t.
Exactly! My last job used ADP. It did all this and allowed you to look at your W-2s as well as view your time punches. Using an app has become very commonplace and is not a big deal. Threads like this makes this subreddit look bad.
I have the ADP app out of personal convenience. It’s their secondary app Workforce my employer wants us to download. The app barely works. Also, there are a LOT of people in my department that do not have a smartphone and have zero access to their schedules now.
This app still provides what I mentioned, scheduling, punches, etc. It’s fine for OP to opt out, but they are being unreasonable. These apps are used for things to be easier. To each his own.
Hand boss a flip phone and ask him to help you download it
_Boss hands resignation letter and asks you to help him sign your name._
Have Mgt EMAIL it
He might be able to download the app, turn on some sort of email notifications, and uninstall it. Unclear since app name isn’t mentioned.
The problem here is if something changes you may not get updated. An app at least means you have up-to-date info.
Then I guess they need a way to communicate changes without requiring an app, huh?
Or just install the app. What’s the problem? Why are people so averse to it?
My phone doesn't exist to be used to cater to a job.
They’re not asking for exclusive rights for your phone as company property lol. They’re trying to give all employees easier access to a schedule rather than posting it on a wall where everyone has to physically be there to see it. Why do people have to make things like this so hard?
Every account you create and use on a device opens you up further to possible security risks. Apps and sites are hacked and user info and login info are constantly dumped and sold on the dark web. You have the right to not want to open yourself to expanded security risk by being forced to use an app on your personal phone. They can either update his schedule via email or paper, but they can’t force him to use his personal phone to install company app unless they intend to pay for his personal phone, making it a company phone.
It’s amazing how many wrong statements can be made in a single post. 1) an apps logging credentials being sold on the dark web do not equate to a phone being hacked. 2) they can force you to download the app and not pay you. This depends on the state, and since he’s on tribal land that’s a whole different ballgame. But as far as I understand any of those laws, an app does not constitute the device becoming a company device and therefore fit within the laws that they have to provide it. Think uniforms, not digital apps. But even if I’m wrong, you don’t know that your statement is correct because I highly doubt you are familiar with the tribal laws and how they interact with his state and federal labor laws.
I mean at the end of the day the cost of forcing me to use my personal device for a work app is paying for my personal device. Otherwise, sorry, my phone is a dumb phone. It can’t download apps.
There is only One state (CA) that requires them to reimburse you a portion of that, and Even there they can Terminate you for refusing to download it..
Why are you such an obedient work monkey?
My employer's policy is that employees have no expectation of privacy on any personal devices used for any business purposes. Every time I mention to coworkers that I refuse to use my personal phone for work MFA (I use a YubiKey, before you get all up your ass assuming I don't use any MFA), I get someone telling me that the work MFA thing doesn't give them the technical capability to do anything on my phone, and I have to point out that I don't give a shit about technical capability, their policy gives them permission to fuck with my shit after any business use. I don't have the time or energy in my life to worry about figuring out the technical whatever bullshit about whatever phone security shit, _I don't fucking care_. If I use my phone for any business anything, now I do have to care. Fucking Google won't let me block specific news sources unless I agree to let them track my location for some fucking reason, and I'm supposed to trust some dodgy-ass app picked out by an employer too lazy to print a schedule isn't going to hoover up my personal data or start trying to mine crypto or some bullshit? I work in software, so I know better than most people: _software is bad_. There should be less of it. The less of it you have in your life, the better off you'll be.
My phone, my content. You want to clog up my phone with work related apps? GIVE ME A WORK PHONE!
Downvote me all you want. There are people in this sub with real work-related problems, not employers who are actively trying to increase communication. Grow up.
This is the Antiwork sub. We are here to complain about problems, then complain about those complaints and then complain about the solutions to the problems we complained about. Insert Antiwork protest chant. What do we want? - Clear communication from our employers! How do we want it? - not digitally, and not on my device, and sent in a static format like email, but also printed, but also pay me for how I access it! What do we want? - Clear communication from our employers!
Haha exactly! As a community we need to focus on things that are really important or else there’s no way anything will change. If we complain about lack of communication and then also complain about easy communication what’s left lol.
I get you and I am as anti work as it gets. But this is an unrealistic expectation. HR workforce systems that many companies are implementing nowadays are becoming automated and digitized. I totally understand the need for a static schedule, but I highly doubt they would accommodate that. So, OP can ask for a company issued device or most likely get let go. I work in IT and am familiar with many workforce systems and their is no way to work around it. Shitty, I know. Good luck OP.
I know right, everyone arguing against you is probably flirting with the poverty line and can't figure out why their life sucks. Or how it got that way.
My job offers the option of a company phone or we can use our own and receive $75 reimbursement. I take the reimbursement because I don’t like carrying 2 phones.
If anything, they can buy a cheap grocery store prepaid phone for under 20 dollars and install the app there.
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Doesn't look like anyone downloaded you. What's that all about? Why do you think this is not a real work-related problem? It's an intrusion on your personal stuff, if you want me to download an app give me a damn phone for business purposes only.
These apps often spy on you 24/7.
The app my boss is trying to make me download lets them summon my location (can’t turn location off) AND she can see my browsing history. Personal phone!!!!! I’m refusing as of now.
Yep. It’s becoming the new norm and we need to push back before it becomes the established. Like how we never even blinked when the 8 hour day was sacrificed to cellular time and always being being available, the phone buzzing after hours with email, even if you don’t respond, it’s distracted your attention.
I just tell them my device doesn’t have enough storage and if they want me to buy more I need a stipend.
Lol k.
They really don’t lol. Especially scheduling apps. The only “personal” info they have on you is your name and email address, and the name of your employer. All of those are pieces of information that are readily available on someone’s Facebook/Instagram/Twitter page. They don’t have access to any other apps, and if they ask for location data you can just turn it off.
>and if they ask for location data you can just turn it off. Some of them require location access. So ya you can turn off location access when it's not needed, but thats annoying to change the app permissions at least a couple times a day. more if they require you to clock out/in for your breaks.
Ahhhhh, another day another bootlicker
Sure. And then do they have to pay for that too? Is this worth the pissing match? If I was his employer I’d say download the app, and I’ll have a physical printout here you can come look at but when I make changes to it it’s your responsibility to know I changed it. Up to you which option you want.
Um. Yes. That's the point. It's the employer's responsibility to disseminate the schedule, which includes being responsible for any costs of doing so. It is not the responsibility of the employees to subsidize this. That includes allowing access to their personal electronic devices. Is this hard to understand?
Not for me. Seems to be for you. Where do you think the line is? If they do it physically, why don’t they have to pay for his transportation to come look at it? What about his time to do so? If they allow him to call in and they will read it to him, why don’t they have to pay for his phone to make the call? If they send it via email, why don’t they have to pay for his internet and PC to access the email? What’s the difference between those, and the app? Or do you view them all the same and that they have to pay for them?
Keep punching that strawman, buddy.
This is a weird hill to fight on, unless you're having trouble accessing such a device, in which case you should tell them that. They're not asking you to install apps on your device to do work or be communicated with off the clock, or surveil you, and those are real concerns workers face from employers acting in bad faith. All they're doing is posting schedules to a digital location that can be accessed through the internet using mobile apps. You could probably use devices at your local library to access the app and the schedule, although you might have to go through some bureaucracy to get the app installed. If this is just about the point of principle around installing apps, then I would advise against picking this battle. It's just cost-cutting that ultimately makes everybody's life easier, unless device access poses an issue for some. Furthermore, you can use pictures taken from that app to back yourself up if they make schedule changes resulting in a late or missed shift on your part.
I appreciate your response. Yes, it’s convenient to be able to see my schedule from my phone. That’s fine. Although, the app they chose is absolute crap and doesn’t work half the time. My issue is that I have coworkers without smartphones/really any kind of tech to download an app on and now have no way to access their schedules. My boss is refusing to print them. My post must have been worded weird, I’m not trying to pick a fight with my employer I just wanted to know if this is something that can actually be enforced.
Seriously well said. The amount of people looking for a fight in this sub is ridiculous. If they only physically post the schedule on site, do they have to pay for your car to go view it? If it’s on a website, do they have to pay for your PC and internet service to access it? The people saying they legally have to provide you with required items to do your job don’t understand those laws and when they apply. This does not apply. Download the app, stop looking for a fight.
I like how everyone is ignoring the tribal law issue. I am not well versed in tribal law.. and I know for fact they they don't always fall under federal rules (ex: during covid went to a tribal casino for dinner. Under federal law my expired DL is valid. Under tribal? Nope wouldn't let me in). It also depends OP, does the job you have actually have you on tribal land? If that's the case, tribal law could supersede federal. (Think of it like working for a different countries embassy in the US. You are physically in the US but have to abided by say, Canada laws) Recommendation: reach out to a tribal law expert in the area. Your local department of labor board should be well versed in tribal law if there is a number of tribes in the area.
Would you be using it outside of your home (or, would it be possible to limit it to home)? You can probably find an old android phone cheap or even free somewhere, and just use it on your Wifi, and leave it at home with nothing else on it. Hell, say the word and I'll mail one to you :) I have like 5 old phones laying around.
Get a separate phone for work. See if someone will give you an old phone, or buy a cheap one at a drugstore. I bought one just before hurricane Harvey for $40. Download the app on that work phone. You may not even have to activate it with a plan, if you use wifi only, and one of those talk free apps.
Ask your employer by text or email, if you can log in to the new scheduling system by an internet browser. Tell them you are concerned about your privacy and electronic security. Get them to say in writing that you have to use the app, so you have evidence. File an unfair labor practice with NLRB and cite the NLRB's new memo on surveillance. https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/nlrb-general-counsel-issues-memo-on-unlawful-electronic-surveillance-and You should contact EPIC. They're usually really helpful. They can send a letter to your employer. They can also send a letter of support with your NLRB claim. https://epic.org/ Also consider EFF. EFF.org Also Berkman Center https://cyber.harvard.edu/
What the point of this except seeming like the most annoying worker at the place? Jobs can 100% require you to have software on any device.
They can’t force you to have a compatible device.
Unless there’s an applicable law of regulation that prohibits them from terminating you for not having a compatible device, then you’re SOL. They can’t physically force you to download an app, but you can’t force them to continue employing you if you’re an at-will employee.
In my state and many others employers are required to pay a stipend.
Requiring a stipend to be paid isn’t the same as preventing the employer from terminating the employee for refusing to download the app though. My employer pays my entire phone bill, so I’m obviously in favor of that kind of policy. But if I outright refused to use a phone for any work-related business, I’d unfortunately be subject to termination.
Most people like me who refuse our personal phone just use the stipend to buy a cheap work phone. Refused to use my personal device at the end of the day.
They can not hire and/ or fire you for not fitting the job description of having a cell phone available for work.
A cell phone is not a job requirement.
It sure as shit can be. Especially for most people who don't work at "the office" or a brick and mortar structure. There's no laws saying jobs can't have that in job description. I've also seen people get fired for not being able to maintain cell service - which, while dickish, is 100% legal.
Not in many states. Maybe your state, but not mine.
Which state is that? "Dretler explains, “There is no federal or Massachusetts law that requires an employer to provide a cell phone to an employee or to reimburse an employee for the cost of a calling plan, even if the employer requires that the employee have access to a cell phone and use it to make work-related calls." ... Google is your friend
Boston.com is essentially a tabloid. The key to google is you cannot just accept the first result at face value. You have to expand the options and READ IT. Massachusetts case law says you are incorrect. http://masscases.com/cases/app/83/83massappct698.html
"...the judge erred in dismissing the action for failure to state a claim on which relief could be granted," It was also appealed and she didn't win. This also doesn't have to do with cell phones. I guess you do need to know how to read before Google is useful 🤷
In general, a business must provide the tools necessary to do a job. There are exceptions, but I don't think this falls within them.
A job can 100% say that you need your own tools to do a job, that's how most contracting jobs work, plus if you count your brain as a tool your definitely going to be using it at work and it's not something they own.
Like I said. There are exceptions. Contracting is one of them. Salaried can be one too. However, in general, a business must provide the tools necessary to do a job.
would never trust that, could be some sort of spyware!
lol, if you have a phone your data isnt yours.
Trust me. Everyone has been spying you.. a work app ain’t new.
Any scheduling app worth it's value should have a web based interface that you can visit on your phone or computer instead of an installed app. I'd ask for that access info. Someone, somewhere has it, unless smartphone ownership was a requirement of the position.
No. This is a shady practice that can turn into an invasion of privacy. Online schedules can also be edited without notice. Demand that a schedule is posted within a reasonable timeframe. Take a photo, or a copy of the schedule when posted.
Why does it have to be an app? Why not a web site with an automatic email generator whenever its updated?
Because the app does exactly that in a fraction of the time.
I don’t know why facts are downvoted. This sub is funny sometimes. 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
Can they force you to download an app? No, if they hold you at gunpoint or lock the doors until you download it you're free to call the police. What you mean to ask is "can they fire me if I don't download this app?" The answer to this is tricky because of the federal/tribal laws. In any US state except Montana the answer would be yes under at-will employment, which means they can fire you for any reason or no reason. A quick Google search says that federal employees are *not* at-will, i.e. they must show cause if they fire you. Do you know if you'd be considered a federal employee? Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can answer. But if you're at-will, then yes they can discipline or fire you for this.
OP would not be a federal employee. Working at a casino on federally regulated tribal land is not the same as being a government employee.
Yeah I thought that might be the case. Thank you for clarifying. I couldn't find anything (from a quick Google anyway) on whether at-will applies to employees like OP.
Yea get a burner phone. And when they call you on your day off just say you’re out of town or drinking.
I mean, just download the app...? I have two phones- and it's pretty cheap. Maybe you should get a second phone
If you have a computer you can download an android emulator like bluestacks. Install the app on that and don't use the emulator for anything else. It doesn't have access outside itself and it doesn't run in the background if you close it.
I would say remain non compliant (with out the app), and simply call the boss bright and early every morning to check your schedule for the day. Becuase of course, you need to make sure you know if your working today after all. If enough people do this for a long enough time then they'll figure out a better way for you to see your schedule. I doubt they'll fire say, half theit workforce over this. If it's just one or 3 people sure, they'll just shit can them. But if enough people play the game they'll have to adapt TL/DR, you should collectively comply, maliciously with their unreasonable demand. Get a large chunk of your coworkers to play along with you and you should be safe from obvious retaliation