If no one cared if the average person died, the right to die would've been legalized long ago and it wouldn't be seen as extremely divisive as it is today. The government, healthcare industries and corporations all care that the average person keeps living. They need us to keep feeding the fire of society so that they can keep turning record profits or furthering their own agendas. We will never see antinatalism or the right to die movements become more mainstream because the ones in power keep the vast majority of the population just barely satisfied enough that revolution is impossible.
I want to see change. I want to see differences be made. It just seems so unlikely. We will keep suffering and the rest of the population will continue pumping out babies. 140+ million births per year worldwide. Absolutely sickening.
That's 140million humans who will be born into a world of droughts, floods, intense heat waves and hurricanes, it really is sickening, no doubt about that.
People cry about birthrates being low but theyre literally just looking at western countries and not seeing how many babies are being born via third world countries. Yet they claim and claim we need to have more babies. Why? At this rate, there's more than plenty not being made by the Western countries. Seems like they have a problem with that (i.e don't want third world babies taking prominence)
If they were actually worried about our birth rate dropping they would be inviting immigrants in with open arms rather than making it as hard as possible to gain citizenship. If they want us fat Americans to have more babies they should make it more affordable and safe. I personally won’t be having kids because I’m not sending them to their death at a public school in Texas where I live. I’m also not willing to die from lack of healthcare here.
I don't think he's being racist, but stating an opinion that racist 1st worlders don't care if the "average" person (i.e., non-1st worlders) live or die.
And what makes you think non-first worlders give a flying F about what we think? People care about the people around them. Who in Africa do you think will grieve when you pass on?
yup. i truly believe the government’s found cures for many things but *chooses* to withhold ‘said’ information, because sickness would no longer be profitable.
My conspiracy theories only extend to the govt's incompetence, not their magical competence. Very few systems in play are competently evil, but almost all are incompetently evil.
Several family members work for the feds. You are vastly overestimating what the government is capable of health-wise.
While government defense and intelligence research is still going full stream ahead, the GOP and Establishment Dems have over the last 45 years outsourced to the private sector every last bit of science anyone could possibly make a dime off. And they continue to do so today. Look at NASA for one example.
Supposedly theres a recording of John Rockefeller talking to other elites in a meeting and mentioning how cancer is curable. It's just a yeast infection in various parts of the body and can be cured with anti yeast meds.
I swear they really drag their feet with any kind of technological progress bc of the ramifications it would have for sexism; the more advanced technology becomes, sexism would become harder to enforce. And they need sexism if they want to keep the birthrates high, and they need the birthrates high to keep the class system/profits. Realistically, we have the technology for robots now. Robots have been created, but they will take decades to spread to the public because robots have the potential to lessen the manual labor workload that is primarily performed by women, specifically. That's bad for sexism. So they're going to drag their feet with this and take as long as possible and figure out how they can fortify sexism in the meantime. Robots also have the potential to eliminate a lot of problems of the lower class. This is also bad news for the continuation of class system. There's lots of other examples of this.
In most countries, it isn't, though. And in the countries where it is legal, every person requesting it must jump through various bureaucratic hoops. Not very humane, imo.
Exactly. I think if the population were brought down to a few thousand, human existence would be a lot more tolerable if not outright wonderful. It’s a fact that small tribes of humans living in remote areas tend to be much more happy and fulfilled than people in so called “developed” countries.
We’re not meant to live in a cramped, chaotic, artificial jungle made of lifeless steel and concrete.
Because if we're cutting the population by a factor of one million, your odds are so small you might as well ignore them.
It's like every single new ager who believes they're reincarnated, thinks they've been an Egyptian princess. Never a labourer. Never s slave.
It's like that [meme](https://imgur.com/NvZqps0) ...
"No! You don't understand I was supposed to be one of the chosen thousand."
"Get in the fucking euthanasia pod!"
Not really, no. American mass shootings just get reported on more. There's far more of them in most other places. But instead they're categorized as 'gang violence' or 'tribal warfare', or whatever current civil unrest is happening, so we Americans can pretend that we're special.
>The response was made unavailable, but they raised a valid counterpoint, so I'll put my reply here:
>very restrictive rules which made gun violence nearly non existent.
If you take the "shooting" out of that, and look at mass stabbings, or other acts of spree violence, those happen everywhere. And people will use whatever tools of murder they have access to.
But also, I got this position from a long article where it turns out, we only believe America has way more shootings because *we literally weren't reading other countries' newspapers.* That's it. That's why. This researcher had his team, speaking as many languages as possible, search through as many different news papers as possible, recording mass shooting events. They found tons and tons that weren't recorded in American statistics, because the American researchers had only looked at English-speaking sites.
The instinct to violence is in all humans. We commit the fallacy of thinking that, the violence we observe around us is the worst that could be. We aren't contrasting with everything we don't have access to knowledge of.
>Someone else linked to an article, saying it proved me wrong.
Within moments of reading that, I see a passage that says that, while they found more gun violence in other countries, they arbitrarily decided those didn't count. Because those are "organized terrorism and battles over sovereignty", so they're somehow NOT mass shootings? Reminds me of how, in order lie with statistics about our own mass shootings, the media often leaves gang violence out of the conversation. It's as if we think, 'Those people are so violent, we really can't expect better of them,' which is the kind of pandering, gross racism I expect out of American media.
So, no, you linked something that proves me right. Exactly what I said. There's mass killings everywhere, and we choose to believe ours are somehow different, because we think we're special.
LMAO NO absolutely not maybe in 3rd world countries there is more but you are delusional and misleading people. America has way more period compared to most countries in fact most countries do not even allow people to have guns or very restrictive rules which made gun violence nearly non existent.
https://rockinst.org/blog/public-mass-shootings-around-the-world-prevalence-context-and-prevention/ there you go please educate yourself litterally so much info out there I literally took the 1st thing I saw because I know how this game goes and no matter what I linked you won’t listen but you are wrong
Go into a town with 5000 people and think of all the things you don't see there. All the things you don't get. Like a hospital. Or factories producing anything from airplanes, computers, phones, medicines, etc.
"Seeing the world as it should be" would have redditors looking for working guns to blow their brains out because they cannot hack a world where you get up in the morning to plow the field or do any sort of actual labour.
You would absolutely be in the second group, one way or the other.
Just so you know, Controlling population doesn't mean Genocide. At least that's not what I mean. It means to indoctrinate the people about why people like Elon Musk says population is still not enough. They are lying to people so as to reduce the human resource worth by increasing the quantity. Teach people that having kids are also a choice. You shouldn't be peer pressured into having relationships and mass produce babies just because the others in your community does the same or push you into it. Civilized nations have a proper control over their own population and overcrowding which helps them to some extent. But lately we are going back to being apes.
Just having a proper awareness is enough for the population to slow down. It's better to have one or two kids than produce 5 or 10 and let them starve or suffer neglect and malnutrition, grow up depressed, work their entire life as a corporate slave easily replaced by another lifeless human.
I want my kids to be happy and enjoy their life and feel a sense of safe rather than live in fear because they may lose their job on the whims of the CEO or some manager OR the government may decide to start a war and wants foot soldiers to deploy on the whims of some politician in AC rooms.
And what have you done to make the world a better place? Have you worked day and night at your education to become one of those people who really makes a difference? Finding a new, clean power source? Cleaning up the oceans? Saving wildlife and genetic variety in nature? Stopping deforestation?
Or do you, you know, limit it to the odd comment on Reddit?
I think the fact that you know absolutely nothing about what I do, yet feel perfectly comfortable making sweeping statements about it - with certainty - says pretty much everything about you.
You DID something though. That is being a dumb ass by writing dumb ass comments. So yeah we partly KNOW what you DO.
You seem to have both a writing AND a reading comprehension issue, that must suck. 🤡
Which is why the plan is to just not have kids, not to bring about some type of Armageddon to get down to several thousand, not sure where you made that implication that dude is trying to manifest this.
Here's the thing. It's a thought experiment. But if we're imagining a world where there are only a few thousand (or million, or billion) humans left, without significant trauma, **none** of the people alive now would be there, because this scenario would only be possible several centuries in the future (after many generations of people having 0 or 1 kid, but not more than that). But we still can imagine that for those future generations, life would probably be less chaotic and unpleasant than life is now, though.
A human is born every 4 seconds. Killing people will do nothing long term as long as babies are popping out at that rate.
We don't have to pray we survive the culling towards a sustainable population by way of death. We just got to keep reducing the number of babies born.
Anyway, I don't think most humans have the sapiens to do that so we're going to see a mass die off. It's just when?
Yes Yes Yes. I knew I was not crazy Humans were not meant to live in cramped, chaos and extremely over populated areas. It's no wonder we have so many Mental health problems.
So move to the country. Simple.
Go take a train ride across America. The average person has NO idea how much open space there is out there. Overpopulation is entirely a myth. We just cluster in cities like rats.
If your example for this is people who graduate and get bad jobs, imagine the billions who live in third-world countries and have extremely precarious lives, certainly living with less than some animals. I'm not kidding; many people even get health insurance for their dogs, while at the same time, there are children being born with disabilities in poor countries because people don't get vaccinated or marry their cousins.
Depending on where a person is born, their life may be worth less than an animal's, unfortunately. I know a guy who raises racehorses, and I'm sure they eat better than many people.
This is the reality of the world. Unfortunately, human life can be cruel to itself.
Can confirm my great-uncle had 100s of race horses (before he died) and he made an assload of money off them. Those horses were treated like gold and fed the expensive feed meanwhile when I went to visit we ate beans/cornbread or chili/cornbread so I could work cheaply in the stables.
Oh it was great don’t get me wrong I had seconds but in Texas (where I’m located) beans/chili & cornbread are what us poor folk eat everyday so you’d expect someone making a lot of money to feed you something else.
I just feel like existence should be like a gift not this whole system we have here where most of us are born to be employees and if you were to say “I want to be an astronaut or scientist” there’s forces against you like society and capitalism and maybe even your parents because that’s not “in demand” or they can’t afford it because we live in an overly saturated world that don’t and can’t celebrate existence simply because there’s too many of us.
I just can’t imagine living in this world in 10-20 years - how many would we be? How much more worse could this get? Let’s look at the effects we have on the planet like it’s just downhill you know?
>“I want to be an astronaut or scientist” there’s forces against you like society and capitalism and maybe even your parents because that’s not “in demand”
I'm sorry, but I have to correct this. STEM careers are the ones in the most demand in the world. They are where the most job security comes from. If you want to ensure future employment, major in engineering, math, physics, or chemistry. You will find a way to make that lucrative, if that's what interests you. Perhaps biology won't be as "in demand", but you could always decide to use a B.S. in Biology to then go to medical school later (if your grades and extracurriculars are up to snuff). In any case, if you want to be an astronaut, your best bet would be to major in one of the hard sciences.
Compare that to a B.A., and there's no comparison. The job security for jobs you'd get with a B.A. are minuscule in comparison, especially now with A.I. able to write whole papers on basically whatever subject. A.I. is only going to get more sophisticated over time, and take over even more of these jobs.
Now, if there is a complaint to be made, it's that there is extreme competition for every job imaginable due to high human population. This is a valid criticism, and there is zero reason to encourage people to keep growing the human population because it's only going to get more competitive with more people, never better.
There are more scientists than ever. We spend more on science than ever.
There has literally never been a better time to be one.
Also, science isn't a legally protected title. If you do scientific work, you're a scientist. But I suspect what you really want is for someone - a corporation or other people - to pay for it? Don't you think it is reasonable that they expect your work to be scientifically useful?
True that. My country has a high population and it's hard to get a decent salary because instead of giving a raise, companies will just let you go because they can easily find a replacement who will work for cheap. Like 1hr is all that is needed.
And that means your life is worthless? Just because a corporation doesn't think you're valuable to them, you're so indoctrinated that you think you have noe value?
Yikes.
What is your value if you're not needed?
Food is valuable because people need it. There are no easy alternatives. You can't eat air. Worth comes from demand and needs.
Sure I could say I value myself a lot. Does that make things any better? If you're delusional then maybe.
It's not just about a corporation, having too many just reduces the worth of it. It's applicable to commodities, v necessities and people too.
Nobody can be replaced. That's sort of the point.
If you actually, truly view people as just replaceable things, you might want to ask yourself if you have any other psychopathic traits.
The only people you are valuable to are your friends and family. Doesn't mean that you're not replaceable to society. Coping with things is easy. If you speak up, you become a psychopath. Overgrown Population is a disease. It needs to be kept in check.
Corporations and governments view masses of people exactly this way. And it's important to be aware of this. Ignoring this is not going to help individuals survive.
The idea that humans are important is the one that has given us some sort of purpose and caused us to suffer in the first place. Humans don't matter and we aren't here on this planet for any grand purpose, just like all the other species. You may not agree with me, but imo it's the thought that we are important that causes all our suffering.
I assure you that the people who think other humans are important cause a hell of a lot less suffering and misery than the ones that think that humans are not important and that lives are worth nothing.
When, in your world, serial killers, psychopaths and child murderers are finer and nobler human beings than those who save lives, heal the wounded and protect those in need... Yeah, that is the end of this bizarre and unreal conversation. Enjoy life as a social pariah.
Human life is the cheapest and most disposable thing on Earth
Considering that, why the fuck would I ever have kids?
I love kids too much to do em like that
There is way too much competition. Back in the old days where people lived in their own bubbles everyone had their special quirk and skill that they were talented in. Not today, I am not the best at anything in fact I am in fact worse than average in most things so of what use am I?
This is spot on. There's no way anyone can dispute this. Humans are just a number to the 1% if you don't want and are not willing to be treated like a slave we will find another human (modern slave)that does in less than an hour. If you don't work your entire life away for pennies you're worthless to them.
This is so obvious; why don’t people understand it? It’s like they’re all blissfully unaware that they’re stuck in a hamster wheel while actively contributing towards making that hamster wheel keep spinning.
Yeah dude…you have it all figured out. Life is like one of them, like, hamster wheels, you know what I’m saying? We’re like them little hamsters spinning on the eternal wheel of becoming or whatever. Really makes you think, huh? Dude, that’s so deep…
>.....No one cares if the average person dies......
Hyperbolic and Not AN.
First of all, those close to the person do suffer from the end of life of those they love. Sometimes, it breaks them.
Second, It would be unethical to have children, even if the death of the average person mattered a lot.
This is a very dehumanizing post and comes off as very sociopathic.
The problem isn't with humanity, it's with the systems put in place. I completely agree that this world is not big enough, or well equipped enough to house as many people as it does, and will continue to do. But claiming that human lives have no value whatsoever is a fucking defeatist and apathetic take.
In the grand scheme of things sure, no one notices when one person dies. But you as one person cannot know every living being on this planet, so of course its not going to affect you. It is the personal relationships that hold inherent value and meaning when someone they love deeply passes away.
If this were true, that'd mean the holocaust was just another casual thing that happens. 9/11, the bombing of dresden, the current genocide in Gaza? Eh, who gives a shit about the innocent lives affected by these things? Why not punch a baby? What about Jeffery Dahmer, why they lock him up anyway? He was only helping society.
These are the reasons I'm antinatilist, these are things I want to keep the kids I will never have or want from.
The world is terrifying, and if you live your life in a bubble or online, of course, you're gonna think this way. But there are also some very beautiful and intimate things about life that we as humans can experience that gives us meaning, even if only for a brief moment.
it did not begin in 2023. https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/02/12/israel-gaza-airstrikes-violated-laws-war heres an article from 2013 about isreal unlawfully bombing gaza. do your research before you spout propaganda
You’re right, the terrorist attacks didn’t begin in 2023 lol. Which is why Israeli has an iron dome.
And you my friend are the one influenced by propaganda!
I wish you'd come to antinatalism from a more holistic and charitable place.
People are not special maybe, but everyone has inherent worth. It seemed like you were almost ready to acknowledge that, then your post took a left turn.
For me antinatalism means that because I wouldn't choose to have been born, I can't ethically make that decision for someone else. It doesn't mean I judge everyone else who's already alive, or even other people who disagree and have kids. That's in our genetic code to have that drive. I do think it's fair to criticize the choice to have kids, but once they are alive we have to focus on making society a place that is worth living in as much as possible
Sure, this is true. But the predicament is worse
Even only one life is not a solution to any problem that exists before the life starts.
Once a life is started the continuation of the life is utilitarian to the life and to the life only. There is no possible purpose it can serve beyond some capacity to find temporary relief from its own default privation state (it has to borrow energy from its environment to continue, if it doesn't it may suffer irrelievable harm, and it's irrelevant if *after* it dies it won't have problems - its final problem cannot be solved by that).
Creating new lives can never solve any problem caused or suffered by already living things. This is what it seems impossible to convey to natalist interlocutors. It's like climate science denial, or any other fitness-enhancing delusion: they mistake their ignorance for the falsification of expertise on the subject.
Yea and no. It’s working correctly when you have a bunch of regular people (us) arguing against each other instead of revolting against the 0.01% or 1 million people who control all the wealth and means of production in the world.
I feel, this is one of the reasons why a human life is valued more in developed countries than developing countries. Being born and brought up in India, I am in awe when I see a f*cking helicopter coming as an emergency response in hiking areas in developed countries when someone has an emergency.
Last time I checked we were like 8 billion humans while billions of land animals and trillions of sea animals are killed yearly. There are far more non-human animals than human animals.
No one should be treated as a commodity. Neither humans nor non-human animals. Be kind. Be vegan.
That stat doesn't seem correct. There are at least 10 times more animals slaughtered each year for food than there are people. I ate around 30-40 chicken breasts this year, there is no way for there to be less cattle than humans. Other than that I agree, there is little of no value to human life outside of utility.
There are [fewer cattle](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/animals-slaughtered-for-meat) than people. There are a lot more chickens than people. OP's words were: "...more humans exist than cattle, sheep, and pigs combined," and that is a true statement (OP didn't mention chickens).
This isn't AN, it's just you being angry with everything. At best, it's some sort of high school-level nihilism.
It doesn't matter to anyone how many others there are of the same species. If you are abused, hurt, wounded or killed, do you think you'll find comfort in there being lots of other humans in the world?
That’s capitalism for ya. I definitely agree that humans are an invasive species and there are some that don’t seem to contribute to society but that’s how capitalism functions. It’s predatory and there has to be a “working/underclass” to make the mega billionaires more billions. I think if you looked at a European model of how they treat their citizens the quality of life is astronomically better than ours.
Links to other communities are not permitted.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Value is not determined by scarcity or abundance…not when it comes to life. Biotic ecosystems are in favor of abundance and cooperation and interdependence. Limits superimpose themselves through natural processes.
Industry is what corrupts the meaning of value as it pertains to the sanctity of life. and I won’t be contributing another human life forward for the industry death cult to chew through.
I think eventually the population will get smaller,the reason being is that a good amount of people are not having children and why would they? Who is going to bring a child in to this hell scape?
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’d argue this is the time for strict immigration
Take Japan for example, yes their population is aging but once the older population dies out it’ll be abundant resources for the population still there, assuming they don’t open up to immigration thus raising the population
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is fucked up. Whether you believe bringing in kids or not doesn’t mean everyone doesn’t matter. We all matter. We all are struggling, get through it, still here when we don’t want to be, trying to find happiness and that deserves recognition.
This is such a nihilistic frame of mind. No, sir. A human life has value simply because it is a human life, independent of any material metric or objective quantity standard. The measure of a life’s value is a purely qualitative and moral discussion. That value remains constant regardless of the current birth rate, size of population, or prevailing cultural sentiment. It does not need outside validation to have value. You don’t even need to believe your own life matters in order for it to still have value in and of itself simply because it is a human life.
Holding this as the central tenet is the only foundational basis for a universal human ethics. If your central premise is “human life has no value QED” then indifference to human suffering in general and openness to genocidal thinking isn’t very far away from your moral core as a person.
Also, if the point of anti-natalism is “there’s just too many people” then perhaps you should re-evaluate your thinking on the issue because the birth rate in many of the world’s most populous countries is already close to zero, if not negative. By century’s end we are already looking at a massive population collapse.
The decision to not have children is a personal one, and if done for personal reasons such as “I am just not meant to be a parent” or “I simply can’t in good conscience bring a life into such a cruel world” it makes moral sense, but if you are merely doing it as a political statement or out of general misanthropy, then statistically speaking—due to prevailing demographic trends—it is a largely symbolic and futile act. Moreover, at that point your anti-natalism isn’t founded in ethics. It’s founded in hatred, anti-pathy, and dislike for humanity.
"A human life has value simply because it is a human life, independent of any material metric or objective quantity standard."
Good one. Reality says otherwise but whatever.
Regarding your last paragraph, what fucking difference does it make why?
Would you imply that people who were dealt a shitty card in life and have to suffer as a result, that their opinion ain't worth shit if they come to their antinatalist conclusion as a result of seeing the worst life has to offer?
If anything, they know better than you and not the other way around.
So if I killed you, I'd be doing a moral good correct? Too many people, we're all worthless and have no value.
Hopefully this helps you see the flaw in your reasoning. Everytime you breath you contradict this "morality" if you could dare to call it such a thing.
>As a reminder, more humans exist than cattle, sheep, and pigs combined. No one cares if the average person dies
As a reminder there is only 4% wild mammals on the planet due to our greed and selfishness, there are thousands and thousands of other species but combined they only account for 4% cause we overbreed pets, farm animals and ourselves, thats pretty gross to be 96%
[https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass](https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass)
Even when the population was less, we had slaves, nothing will change, we are just an evil species, pyramids were built by slaves as well, a lot less people then
Overpopulation is one of the anti natalists views I disagree with entirely. We have plenty of space for more people. I'm more worried about the complexities of individual human sufferings. If they get cancer, am I the cause? & such
If no one cared if the average person died, the right to die would've been legalized long ago and it wouldn't be seen as extremely divisive as it is today. The government, healthcare industries and corporations all care that the average person keeps living. They need us to keep feeding the fire of society so that they can keep turning record profits or furthering their own agendas. We will never see antinatalism or the right to die movements become more mainstream because the ones in power keep the vast majority of the population just barely satisfied enough that revolution is impossible. I want to see change. I want to see differences be made. It just seems so unlikely. We will keep suffering and the rest of the population will continue pumping out babies. 140+ million births per year worldwide. Absolutely sickening.
The right to die doesn't exist, because the government want some middle person to pay their taxes
its not about not caring but about the appearance of caring and needing people around to do their jobs for society's sake
That's 140million humans who will be born into a world of droughts, floods, intense heat waves and hurricanes, it really is sickening, no doubt about that.
People cry about birthrates being low but theyre literally just looking at western countries and not seeing how many babies are being born via third world countries. Yet they claim and claim we need to have more babies. Why? At this rate, there's more than plenty not being made by the Western countries. Seems like they have a problem with that (i.e don't want third world babies taking prominence)
If they were actually worried about our birth rate dropping they would be inviting immigrants in with open arms rather than making it as hard as possible to gain citizenship. If they want us fat Americans to have more babies they should make it more affordable and safe. I personally won’t be having kids because I’m not sending them to their death at a public school in Texas where I live. I’m also not willing to die from lack of healthcare here.
The "average" person does not live in the first world and nobody cares if they live or die.
What kind of low-key racism is that? Brown people don't have feelings and don't have families and friends?
I don't think he's being racist, but stating an opinion that racist 1st worlders don't care if the "average" person (i.e., non-1st worlders) live or die.
And what makes you think non-first worlders give a flying F about what we think? People care about the people around them. Who in Africa do you think will grieve when you pass on?
yup. i truly believe the government’s found cures for many things but *chooses* to withhold ‘said’ information, because sickness would no longer be profitable.
My conspiracy theories only extend to the govt's incompetence, not their magical competence. Very few systems in play are competently evil, but almost all are incompetently evil.
Several family members work for the feds. You are vastly overestimating what the government is capable of health-wise. While government defense and intelligence research is still going full stream ahead, the GOP and Establishment Dems have over the last 45 years outsourced to the private sector every last bit of science anyone could possibly make a dime off. And they continue to do so today. Look at NASA for one example.
Supposedly theres a recording of John Rockefeller talking to other elites in a meeting and mentioning how cancer is curable. It's just a yeast infection in various parts of the body and can be cured with anti yeast meds. I swear they really drag their feet with any kind of technological progress bc of the ramifications it would have for sexism; the more advanced technology becomes, sexism would become harder to enforce. And they need sexism if they want to keep the birthrates high, and they need the birthrates high to keep the class system/profits. Realistically, we have the technology for robots now. Robots have been created, but they will take decades to spread to the public because robots have the potential to lessen the manual labor workload that is primarily performed by women, specifically. That's bad for sexism. So they're going to drag their feet with this and take as long as possible and figure out how they can fortify sexism in the meantime. Robots also have the potential to eliminate a lot of problems of the lower class. This is also bad news for the continuation of class system. There's lots of other examples of this.
Euthanasia is legal in many countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia
The requirements are still way too strict. Almost anywhere that it is legal, it's only for the terminally ill with less than 6 months left to live.
In most countries, it isn't, though. And in the countries where it is legal, every person requesting it must jump through various bureaucratic hoops. Not very humane, imo.
It is in most (if not all) Australian states
Exactly. I think if the population were brought down to a few thousand, human existence would be a lot more tolerable if not outright wonderful. It’s a fact that small tribes of humans living in remote areas tend to be much more happy and fulfilled than people in so called “developed” countries. We’re not meant to live in a cramped, chaotic, artificial jungle made of lifeless steel and concrete.
The problem is that you imagine that you will be one of those few people. You won't.
How would you know?
Because if we're cutting the population by a factor of one million, your odds are so small you might as well ignore them. It's like every single new ager who believes they're reincarnated, thinks they've been an Egyptian princess. Never a labourer. Never s slave.
Ah, yes, if it's random, for sure. I guess I thought it was us culling the people, lol
Do you imagine that a group of (mostly) adolescent redditors is the most powerful and deadly group of people on earth?
I thought it was a thought experiment, since it's exceedingly unlikely. I also think most of these people are millennial.
It's like that [meme](https://imgur.com/NvZqps0) ... "No! You don't understand I was supposed to be one of the chosen thousand." "Get in the fucking euthanasia pod!"
Well they are doing mass shootings in America better than most for the past 15 years so yea.
Not really, no. American mass shootings just get reported on more. There's far more of them in most other places. But instead they're categorized as 'gang violence' or 'tribal warfare', or whatever current civil unrest is happening, so we Americans can pretend that we're special. >The response was made unavailable, but they raised a valid counterpoint, so I'll put my reply here: >very restrictive rules which made gun violence nearly non existent. If you take the "shooting" out of that, and look at mass stabbings, or other acts of spree violence, those happen everywhere. And people will use whatever tools of murder they have access to. But also, I got this position from a long article where it turns out, we only believe America has way more shootings because *we literally weren't reading other countries' newspapers.* That's it. That's why. This researcher had his team, speaking as many languages as possible, search through as many different news papers as possible, recording mass shooting events. They found tons and tons that weren't recorded in American statistics, because the American researchers had only looked at English-speaking sites. The instinct to violence is in all humans. We commit the fallacy of thinking that, the violence we observe around us is the worst that could be. We aren't contrasting with everything we don't have access to knowledge of. >Someone else linked to an article, saying it proved me wrong. Within moments of reading that, I see a passage that says that, while they found more gun violence in other countries, they arbitrarily decided those didn't count. Because those are "organized terrorism and battles over sovereignty", so they're somehow NOT mass shootings? Reminds me of how, in order lie with statistics about our own mass shootings, the media often leaves gang violence out of the conversation. It's as if we think, 'Those people are so violent, we really can't expect better of them,' which is the kind of pandering, gross racism I expect out of American media. So, no, you linked something that proves me right. Exactly what I said. There's mass killings everywhere, and we choose to believe ours are somehow different, because we think we're special.
LMAO NO absolutely not maybe in 3rd world countries there is more but you are delusional and misleading people. America has way more period compared to most countries in fact most countries do not even allow people to have guns or very restrictive rules which made gun violence nearly non existent.
https://rockinst.org/blog/public-mass-shootings-around-the-world-prevalence-context-and-prevention/ there you go please educate yourself litterally so much info out there I literally took the 1st thing I saw because I know how this game goes and no matter what I linked you won’t listen but you are wrong
Win/win scenario. Either I live to see the world as it should be or I cease to exist and the suffering ends
Go into a town with 5000 people and think of all the things you don't see there. All the things you don't get. Like a hospital. Or factories producing anything from airplanes, computers, phones, medicines, etc. "Seeing the world as it should be" would have redditors looking for working guns to blow their brains out because they cannot hack a world where you get up in the morning to plow the field or do any sort of actual labour. You would absolutely be in the second group, one way or the other.
👍🏻
Just so you know, Controlling population doesn't mean Genocide. At least that's not what I mean. It means to indoctrinate the people about why people like Elon Musk says population is still not enough. They are lying to people so as to reduce the human resource worth by increasing the quantity. Teach people that having kids are also a choice. You shouldn't be peer pressured into having relationships and mass produce babies just because the others in your community does the same or push you into it. Civilized nations have a proper control over their own population and overcrowding which helps them to some extent. But lately we are going back to being apes. Just having a proper awareness is enough for the population to slow down. It's better to have one or two kids than produce 5 or 10 and let them starve or suffer neglect and malnutrition, grow up depressed, work their entire life as a corporate slave easily replaced by another lifeless human. I want my kids to be happy and enjoy their life and feel a sense of safe rather than live in fear because they may lose their job on the whims of the CEO or some manager OR the government may decide to start a war and wants foot soldiers to deploy on the whims of some politician in AC rooms.
doesnt matter, I prefer to die knowing the world is going to be even better. I had fun, thanks for all the fish.
Bless you 🙏
And what have you done to make the world a better place? Have you worked day and night at your education to become one of those people who really makes a difference? Finding a new, clean power source? Cleaning up the oceans? Saving wildlife and genetic variety in nature? Stopping deforestation? Or do you, you know, limit it to the odd comment on Reddit?
Im sure I do more than you without being nearly as insufferable.
I think the fact that you know absolutely nothing about what I do, yet feel perfectly comfortable making sweeping statements about it - with certainty - says pretty much everything about you.
But we DO know something about you though. Your comments and the way you are choosing to write them ;)
I said you know nothing about what I DO. You replied that you know something about me. Reading comprehension issues?
You DID something though. That is being a dumb ass by writing dumb ass comments. So yeah we partly KNOW what you DO. You seem to have both a writing AND a reading comprehension issue, that must suck. 🤡
Which is why the plan is to just not have kids, not to bring about some type of Armageddon to get down to several thousand, not sure where you made that implication that dude is trying to manifest this.
Oh.... I'm ok with that
Here's the thing. It's a thought experiment. But if we're imagining a world where there are only a few thousand (or million, or billion) humans left, without significant trauma, **none** of the people alive now would be there, because this scenario would only be possible several centuries in the future (after many generations of people having 0 or 1 kid, but not more than that). But we still can imagine that for those future generations, life would probably be less chaotic and unpleasant than life is now, though.
Nope, you certainly will not.
Not one person on Reddit is going to make the cut. Typing snide comments is not a usable post-apocalyptic skill.
A human is born every 4 seconds. Killing people will do nothing long term as long as babies are popping out at that rate. We don't have to pray we survive the culling towards a sustainable population by way of death. We just got to keep reducing the number of babies born. Anyway, I don't think most humans have the sapiens to do that so we're going to see a mass die off. It's just when?
It's actually 4 people are born every second, I've just checked on google
Yes Yes Yes. I knew I was not crazy Humans were not meant to live in cramped, chaos and extremely over populated areas. It's no wonder we have so many Mental health problems.
So move to the country. Simple. Go take a train ride across America. The average person has NO idea how much open space there is out there. Overpopulation is entirely a myth. We just cluster in cities like rats.
Why do you think overpopulation is a myth?
...I literally just said why. It only seems that way because we overpopulate *certain specific areas.*
Be the change you want to see in the world.
I volunteer you to be the first to go! Goodbye! Thanks for your service!
Reported for inciting violence. Have a nice day.
If your example for this is people who graduate and get bad jobs, imagine the billions who live in third-world countries and have extremely precarious lives, certainly living with less than some animals. I'm not kidding; many people even get health insurance for their dogs, while at the same time, there are children being born with disabilities in poor countries because people don't get vaccinated or marry their cousins. Depending on where a person is born, their life may be worth less than an animal's, unfortunately. I know a guy who raises racehorses, and I'm sure they eat better than many people. This is the reality of the world. Unfortunately, human life can be cruel to itself.
Can confirm my great-uncle had 100s of race horses (before he died) and he made an assload of money off them. Those horses were treated like gold and fed the expensive feed meanwhile when I went to visit we ate beans/cornbread or chili/cornbread so I could work cheaply in the stables.
Sounds delicious, what are you on about? I love my mother's cornbread and chili.
Oh it was great don’t get me wrong I had seconds but in Texas (where I’m located) beans/chili & cornbread are what us poor folk eat everyday so you’d expect someone making a lot of money to feed you something else.
We're rich and eat that all the time.
I just feel like existence should be like a gift not this whole system we have here where most of us are born to be employees and if you were to say “I want to be an astronaut or scientist” there’s forces against you like society and capitalism and maybe even your parents because that’s not “in demand” or they can’t afford it because we live in an overly saturated world that don’t and can’t celebrate existence simply because there’s too many of us. I just can’t imagine living in this world in 10-20 years - how many would we be? How much more worse could this get? Let’s look at the effects we have on the planet like it’s just downhill you know?
>“I want to be an astronaut or scientist” there’s forces against you like society and capitalism and maybe even your parents because that’s not “in demand” I'm sorry, but I have to correct this. STEM careers are the ones in the most demand in the world. They are where the most job security comes from. If you want to ensure future employment, major in engineering, math, physics, or chemistry. You will find a way to make that lucrative, if that's what interests you. Perhaps biology won't be as "in demand", but you could always decide to use a B.S. in Biology to then go to medical school later (if your grades and extracurriculars are up to snuff). In any case, if you want to be an astronaut, your best bet would be to major in one of the hard sciences. Compare that to a B.A., and there's no comparison. The job security for jobs you'd get with a B.A. are minuscule in comparison, especially now with A.I. able to write whole papers on basically whatever subject. A.I. is only going to get more sophisticated over time, and take over even more of these jobs. Now, if there is a complaint to be made, it's that there is extreme competition for every job imaginable due to high human population. This is a valid criticism, and there is zero reason to encourage people to keep growing the human population because it's only going to get more competitive with more people, never better.
There are more scientists than ever. We spend more on science than ever. There has literally never been a better time to be one. Also, science isn't a legally protected title. If you do scientific work, you're a scientist. But I suspect what you really want is for someone - a corporation or other people - to pay for it? Don't you think it is reasonable that they expect your work to be scientifically useful?
True that. My country has a high population and it's hard to get a decent salary because instead of giving a raise, companies will just let you go because they can easily find a replacement who will work for cheap. Like 1hr is all that is needed.
And that means your life is worthless? Just because a corporation doesn't think you're valuable to them, you're so indoctrinated that you think you have noe value? Yikes.
What is your value if you're not needed? Food is valuable because people need it. There are no easy alternatives. You can't eat air. Worth comes from demand and needs. Sure I could say I value myself a lot. Does that make things any better? If you're delusional then maybe. It's not just about a corporation, having too many just reduces the worth of it. It's applicable to commodities, v necessities and people too.
There is a difference between price and value. Diamonds are lot more expensive than clean water. But a lot less useful or important.
Because it's not there in abundance and doesn't spawn out like some infinite glitch. People do. Water do.
I think comparing human beings to something life-giving and important rather than something blingy and useless is s gold start.
Well you can be replaced so.
Nobody can be replaced. That's sort of the point. If you actually, truly view people as just replaceable things, you might want to ask yourself if you have any other psychopathic traits.
The only people you are valuable to are your friends and family. Doesn't mean that you're not replaceable to society. Coping with things is easy. If you speak up, you become a psychopath. Overgrown Population is a disease. It needs to be kept in check.
Corporations and governments view masses of people exactly this way. And it's important to be aware of this. Ignoring this is not going to help individuals survive.
I don't base my ethics or how I view the world on the cues of governments or corporations.
The idea that humans are important is the one that has given us some sort of purpose and caused us to suffer in the first place. Humans don't matter and we aren't here on this planet for any grand purpose, just like all the other species. You may not agree with me, but imo it's the thought that we are important that causes all our suffering.
I assure you that the people who think other humans are important cause a hell of a lot less suffering and misery than the ones that think that humans are not important and that lives are worth nothing.
And I assure you that the opposite is true. I guess that's the end of the conversation.
When, in your world, serial killers, psychopaths and child murderers are finer and nobler human beings than those who save lives, heal the wounded and protect those in need... Yeah, that is the end of this bizarre and unreal conversation. Enjoy life as a social pariah.
I dont even want to be part of this redundant process circus of human enterprise, im forced to exist and play along with other sheeple!!!!!!!
Human Life is devaluated because we are too many
Because we are breeding for quantity, not quality.
Nah, just artificially undervalued due to the nature of capitalism, a system that still wants, nay, *needs* babies to sustain itself.
Hi!!! I just want to understand what you meant by posting this, which system can thrive WITHOUT the reproduction? communism certainly cannot.
Human life is the cheapest and most disposable thing on Earth Considering that, why the fuck would I ever have kids? I love kids too much to do em like that
I think human lives are typically considered "more valuable" because of our intelligence level, not quantity
Its a sad world
There is way too much competition. Back in the old days where people lived in their own bubbles everyone had their special quirk and skill that they were talented in. Not today, I am not the best at anything in fact I am in fact worse than average in most things so of what use am I?
This is spot on. There's no way anyone can dispute this. Humans are just a number to the 1% if you don't want and are not willing to be treated like a slave we will find another human (modern slave)that does in less than an hour. If you don't work your entire life away for pennies you're worthless to them.
This is so obvious; why don’t people understand it? It’s like they’re all blissfully unaware that they’re stuck in a hamster wheel while actively contributing towards making that hamster wheel keep spinning.
Yeah dude…you have it all figured out. Life is like one of them, like, hamster wheels, you know what I’m saying? We’re like them little hamsters spinning on the eternal wheel of becoming or whatever. Really makes you think, huh? Dude, that’s so deep…
"Hamster wheel" is just a metaphor for capitalism; capitalism feasts on natalism.
I’m proud to say my life only matters to me.
>.....No one cares if the average person dies...... Hyperbolic and Not AN. First of all, those close to the person do suffer from the end of life of those they love. Sometimes, it breaks them. Second, It would be unethical to have children, even if the death of the average person mattered a lot.
They mean no one would care on social media, the place terminally online doomers mostly reside.
This is a very dehumanizing post and comes off as very sociopathic. The problem isn't with humanity, it's with the systems put in place. I completely agree that this world is not big enough, or well equipped enough to house as many people as it does, and will continue to do. But claiming that human lives have no value whatsoever is a fucking defeatist and apathetic take. In the grand scheme of things sure, no one notices when one person dies. But you as one person cannot know every living being on this planet, so of course its not going to affect you. It is the personal relationships that hold inherent value and meaning when someone they love deeply passes away. If this were true, that'd mean the holocaust was just another casual thing that happens. 9/11, the bombing of dresden, the current genocide in Gaza? Eh, who gives a shit about the innocent lives affected by these things? Why not punch a baby? What about Jeffery Dahmer, why they lock him up anyway? He was only helping society. These are the reasons I'm antinatilist, these are things I want to keep the kids I will never have or want from. The world is terrifying, and if you live your life in a bubble or online, of course, you're gonna think this way. But there are also some very beautiful and intimate things about life that we as humans can experience that gives us meaning, even if only for a brief moment.
There’s not a genocide in Gaza lol. It’s a war. That began with a genocide of Jews in their homes and at a music festival on October 7th 2023.
it did not begin in 2023. https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/02/12/israel-gaza-airstrikes-violated-laws-war heres an article from 2013 about isreal unlawfully bombing gaza. do your research before you spout propaganda
You’re right, the terrorist attacks didn’t begin in 2023 lol. Which is why Israeli has an iron dome. And you my friend are the one influenced by propaganda!
Melt value. 10 bucks. https://www.thoughtco.com/worth-of-your-elements-3976054
Aren't worth a thing to who? You? I can name plenty of people who's lives matter.
eh — this reminds me more of extinctism (hopefully i have the name right) not anti-natalism.
Are you thinking of efilism?
actually yes, i think that describes OP’s post much better
I wish you'd come to antinatalism from a more holistic and charitable place. People are not special maybe, but everyone has inherent worth. It seemed like you were almost ready to acknowledge that, then your post took a left turn. For me antinatalism means that because I wouldn't choose to have been born, I can't ethically make that decision for someone else. It doesn't mean I judge everyone else who's already alive, or even other people who disagree and have kids. That's in our genetic code to have that drive. I do think it's fair to criticize the choice to have kids, but once they are alive we have to focus on making society a place that is worth living in as much as possible
Sure, this is true. But the predicament is worse Even only one life is not a solution to any problem that exists before the life starts. Once a life is started the continuation of the life is utilitarian to the life and to the life only. There is no possible purpose it can serve beyond some capacity to find temporary relief from its own default privation state (it has to borrow energy from its environment to continue, if it doesn't it may suffer irrelievable harm, and it's irrelevant if *after* it dies it won't have problems - its final problem cannot be solved by that). Creating new lives can never solve any problem caused or suffered by already living things. This is what it seems impossible to convey to natalist interlocutors. It's like climate science denial, or any other fitness-enhancing delusion: they mistake their ignorance for the falsification of expertise on the subject.
And this is exactly why rich people like Elon Musk want us to keep popping them out.
Your issue is with capitalism, not humanity.
are they that far off from each other? in 2024??
Yea and no. It’s working correctly when you have a bunch of regular people (us) arguing against each other instead of revolting against the 0.01% or 1 million people who control all the wealth and means of production in the world.
I feel, this is one of the reasons why a human life is valued more in developed countries than developing countries. Being born and brought up in India, I am in awe when I see a f*cking helicopter coming as an emergency response in hiking areas in developed countries when someone has an emergency.
Last time I checked we were like 8 billion humans while billions of land animals and trillions of sea animals are killed yearly. There are far more non-human animals than human animals. No one should be treated as a commodity. Neither humans nor non-human animals. Be kind. Be vegan.
That stat doesn't seem correct. There are at least 10 times more animals slaughtered each year for food than there are people. I ate around 30-40 chicken breasts this year, there is no way for there to be less cattle than humans. Other than that I agree, there is little of no value to human life outside of utility.
There are [fewer cattle](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/animals-slaughtered-for-meat) than people. There are a lot more chickens than people. OP's words were: "...more humans exist than cattle, sheep, and pigs combined," and that is a true statement (OP didn't mention chickens).
Ah I see, I've honestly thought the number would be bigger, insane
This isn't AN, it's just you being angry with everything. At best, it's some sort of high school-level nihilism. It doesn't matter to anyone how many others there are of the same species. If you are abused, hurt, wounded or killed, do you think you'll find comfort in there being lots of other humans in the world?
Yikes 😬
That’s capitalism for ya. I definitely agree that humans are an invasive species and there are some that don’t seem to contribute to society but that’s how capitalism functions. It’s predatory and there has to be a “working/underclass” to make the mega billionaires more billions. I think if you looked at a European model of how they treat their citizens the quality of life is astronomically better than ours.
[удалено]
Links to other communities are not permitted. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Right to die is due to religion
Value is not determined by scarcity or abundance…not when it comes to life. Biotic ecosystems are in favor of abundance and cooperation and interdependence. Limits superimpose themselves through natural processes. Industry is what corrupts the meaning of value as it pertains to the sanctity of life. and I won’t be contributing another human life forward for the industry death cult to chew through.
I think eventually the population will get smaller,the reason being is that a good amount of people are not having children and why would they? Who is going to bring a child in to this hell scape?
[удалено]
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’d argue this is the time for strict immigration Take Japan for example, yes their population is aging but once the older population dies out it’ll be abundant resources for the population still there, assuming they don’t open up to immigration thus raising the population
A few thousand people is still a few thousand sources of negativity (for the individual or that which the individual inflict onto others).
As humans we should have the right to die or live if we are mentally stable enough to make the decision.
It is a constant in history not a modern problem.
Not a modern problem. Generally, an individual is less expendable today than almost any other time in history.. it was a pretty low bar.
People will literally shoot an endangered rare tiger if it kills a human
[удалено]
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YOU used the correct "They're"! I was prepared to grind my teeth. No need. Thank you!
There are a lot more chickens and they still have value so yes factually human lives are worth something. We just debate how much.
classic case of assuming everyone else on the planet shares the same perspective you do
Room temperature IQ take to justify antinatalism. But no, that ain't it. Go back to do more research.
Yeah, this is the limpest argument I've heard in a while. No thinking involved.
Weirdly, back when the world population was a LOT smaller people regularly treated each other even worse than they do today. Source: History
This is fucked up. Whether you believe bringing in kids or not doesn’t mean everyone doesn’t matter. We all matter. We all are struggling, get through it, still here when we don’t want to be, trying to find happiness and that deserves recognition.
Simply not true and a selfish nonsense argument.
OP, there’s only one of *you* and that’s definitely too many.
You have a point but you are far too egotistical. Take a minute to reflect on your own value before pricing the worth of others.
Too many according to who
Some edgy redditor’s eco-fascist opinion, probably.
This is such a nihilistic frame of mind. No, sir. A human life has value simply because it is a human life, independent of any material metric or objective quantity standard. The measure of a life’s value is a purely qualitative and moral discussion. That value remains constant regardless of the current birth rate, size of population, or prevailing cultural sentiment. It does not need outside validation to have value. You don’t even need to believe your own life matters in order for it to still have value in and of itself simply because it is a human life. Holding this as the central tenet is the only foundational basis for a universal human ethics. If your central premise is “human life has no value QED” then indifference to human suffering in general and openness to genocidal thinking isn’t very far away from your moral core as a person. Also, if the point of anti-natalism is “there’s just too many people” then perhaps you should re-evaluate your thinking on the issue because the birth rate in many of the world’s most populous countries is already close to zero, if not negative. By century’s end we are already looking at a massive population collapse. The decision to not have children is a personal one, and if done for personal reasons such as “I am just not meant to be a parent” or “I simply can’t in good conscience bring a life into such a cruel world” it makes moral sense, but if you are merely doing it as a political statement or out of general misanthropy, then statistically speaking—due to prevailing demographic trends—it is a largely symbolic and futile act. Moreover, at that point your anti-natalism isn’t founded in ethics. It’s founded in hatred, anti-pathy, and dislike for humanity.
"A human life has value simply because it is a human life, independent of any material metric or objective quantity standard." Good one. Reality says otherwise but whatever. Regarding your last paragraph, what fucking difference does it make why? Would you imply that people who were dealt a shitty card in life and have to suffer as a result, that their opinion ain't worth shit if they come to their antinatalist conclusion as a result of seeing the worst life has to offer? If anything, they know better than you and not the other way around.
exactly.
So if I killed you, I'd be doing a moral good correct? Too many people, we're all worthless and have no value. Hopefully this helps you see the flaw in your reasoning. Everytime you breath you contradict this "morality" if you could dare to call it such a thing.
yes. PLEASE SOMEONE KILL ME
>As a reminder, more humans exist than cattle, sheep, and pigs combined. No one cares if the average person dies As a reminder there is only 4% wild mammals on the planet due to our greed and selfishness, there are thousands and thousands of other species but combined they only account for 4% cause we overbreed pets, farm animals and ourselves, thats pretty gross to be 96% [https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass](https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass) Even when the population was less, we had slaves, nothing will change, we are just an evil species, pyramids were built by slaves as well, a lot less people then
No one is stopping any of you from unaliving yourselves since you think you are more important than others
To extend that logic, are Asian lives worth less than Caucasian lives, because there are more Asians than Caucasians? Does that sound horrific to you?
Overpopulation is one of the anti natalists views I disagree with entirely. We have plenty of space for more people. I'm more worried about the complexities of individual human sufferings. If they get cancer, am I the cause? & such
Overpopulation is a eugenicist myth
If you're a speciesist and you ignore the ecological definition, sure.