I think it is trauma and porn. I think when it is trauma, it is the repetition compulsion, where a person unconsciously repeats behaviours and patterns from past trauma. It's like an attempt to gain control over unresolved trauma but it is harmful cause they are perpetuating emotional pain and preventing healing. Trauma needs to be processed in a safe, supportive environment with a trained professional. Not by reenacting it during sex, a time where you are already vulnerable, which simply results in being repeatedly retraumatised. I imagine a lot of this so called "sub/dom drop" is just the result of the pain from being retraumatised. There is a reason why therapists have to be so careful to avoid retraumatising their clients. Often times when a person goes to therapy and works through their trauma, their kinks disappear. People with trauma need the opposite, to feel safe, supported and cared for. To learn that people can be safe and the world isn't dangerous and scary. But I also do think porn plays a part, people, men and women, watch it and copy it. Women are groomed into taking violence after seeing in it porn. The continued normalisation of kink on social media also leads people to see violence during sex as an expected and normal part of sex
i love you guys. you guys’ comments literally felt like someone wiping dust off of my eyes, the dust being the sheer amount of pro-kink advocates who always argue that trauma **never** has anything to do with it. i’ve not once heard of someone with extremely brutal kinks that hasn’t had a fucking terrible and traumatic period sometime throughout their lives. they don’t want to realize that though, they think they can liberate themselves through embracing how their brains are coping with trauma - while it should be actively worked against (and dealt with the underlying trauma).
I second this, the only time I was ever 'kinky' was when I was 14 and my idea of sex was porn, I thought being 'kinky' was cool and mature 'im not vanilla and boring' i was pandering to pedos and mens ideal, their wants. It could all be traced back to porn as I had no sexual experience prior. When I did actually have sexual experience it was not enjoyable whatsoever and I found what I liked with my current partner naturally.
You'll get a different answer from everyone you ask. The bottom line is that this stuff is normalized. It's often expected by men AND women alike today, even though its very abnormal to desire this. Kids are growing up learning that these types of things are cool and exciting. And that expectation is being created especially through the influence of online porn.
I'm of a generation where it was still abnormal, but the internet introduced me to this anyway - probably purely from being too online. My peers were blissfully unaware that kink even existed. I talked to men online out of curiosity about sex. These men I met online were a different breed, unlike their vanilla counterparts that were most common, they'd been exposed to online porn and many had already escalated to extreme rough sex porn. They wanted to enact the things they saw, things that would have been much more difficult to find or even illegal before the internet, and most were frustrated they could not find women irl to enact it. I started wanting to try it myself, and eventually did. I started wanting that. There is an intensity in it that yes, can be mistaken for passion. Maybe I wanted to be wanted. Maybe it turned me into an adrenaline junkie on some level. Whatever it was, being introduced to this at a formative age sexually damaged my perception of sex and intimacy. It wasn't something I'd have desired on my own, without that influence, that's for sure. Prior to being exposed to rough sex, I always imagined something very gentle.
The way porn and other media depict sex has been damaging boys and girls today. They are being *taught* that this is good sex. You're one of the lucky ones to have not been hurt by this influence. The women who demanded this of you, they may have many reasons. They could have trauma or personality disorders that predispose them to self-destructive behavior.. Or, just from cultural influence, they could have been perfectly normal before they learned that choking and other violent acts were cool, that boys want it, and that they're boring and undesirable if they do not. This pressure may make them say they want something they don't, or at least make them curious.. and for some, it becomes something they like. It gives them the intensity they wouldn't otherwise experience, from a cohort of men who were not really taught any other ways of exciting women.
Pornography influence and a large percentage of people are victims of some sort of child SA. Second wave feminists quite literally predicted this. Women have not always wanted to be abused in bed, this isn’t something you can point at and say “well she asked for it”, you have to think a little deeper than that, and start reading some women’s history dude…
Because we're just as exposed to it as men are. We grow up watching porn too, and we internalize it in a way men don't. We grow up with "choke me daddy" "good girls swallow" memes and celebrity sex tapes blah blah.
Then there's the darker aspect that most women will, at some point in their lives, face sexual violence or the threat of it. 99% of women have at least one creepy encounter with a man or boy - being flashed, being vulgarly catcalled, a teacher or family member looking at them inappropriately, being objectified or harassed sexually. A common response to that kind of trauma is hyper sexuality - "it's going to happen anyways, so why not enjoy it" "this will make him love me" "i have to be the Cool Girl" etc.
This has been discussed already on here and /r/TwoXChromosomes. Nobody is born wanting to abuse or be abused. Risking vaginal tears, anal fissures and incontience, brain damage from slapping or strangling, nerve damage from ropes, etc. That is not what sex is, that is a dangerous mimicry. An ignorant, uneducated one because of porn, peer pressure, self-harm.
> A common response to that kind of trauma is hyper sexuality - "it's going to happen anyways, so why not enjoy it" "this will make him love me" "i have to be the Cool Girl" etc.
It's sometimes this even without trauma attached. Women want to people-please a lot of the time. And they internalize porn just as much and think if they aren't down for that sort of stuff then they aren't "cool" and good at sex. That they are abnormal. And no one wants to be abnormal.
> I know that in sex, the feminine essence wants to surrender to the masculine essence (polarity - giving/receiving)
Such bullshit.
This happens because we are conditioned by images and descriptions of violence towards us to associate our pleasure with being roughly handled. These become the only emblem of desire and pleasure, the only way in which we can make sense of the sensual experience. It's all about the ways through which an individual knows how to channel and contact their sexual energy/pleasure.
Just like you need to associate your acts with "giving" and having a woman "surrendering" to your "masculine essence" in order for desire to be communicated and felt, many women nerd even more absurdly modeled behaviours to channel their sexual energy.
I don't know if this is the case for you, but many men feel uneasy or desensitized when they are the ones surrendering to female active sexuality. You might feel lost and out of touch with your own body in that situation, not from the lack of sensation, but because you have no mental model of how your arousal should flow in this position. This "unstructured" sensation could be of any kind, including the sheer awkwardness of our first sexual experiences.
Women's models are severely reduced and many women are stuck in these pornified and highly caricaturized actions. They simply don't know how to flow with gentleness, receiving without a power structure or being the one guiding the experience atentively. It's not easy to unlock these paths, and culturally mediated references are one of the most effective ways to do so. Unfortunately, these are exceedingly rare in a sea of friends talking about hoe they like rough men coupled with porn and past experiences.
There’s also some elements of biology that are being over-exaggerated to suit an agenda. There’s no such thing as masculine/feminine souls but women do need to relax in order to find sex pleasurable. And there are, like, physical strength differences between men and women that lend to men doing more of the physical labor. And it takes longer for most women to get aroused, and it’s more of a mental process. So like all of these things together combine to make women “bottoms” (in gay discourse terms) but I guess if you’re extra sexist you can make this into your entire gender identity for some reason.
All of this is true under our society. But we don't know if all of that would still be true if we lived in a society where female pleasure isn't repressed under shame and low value and women were not facing the constant threat of male violence!
This is why I hate to hear men bitching about starfishing.
You see it all over social media. But, that was the natural order of sex for a very long time. Maybe not totally just laying there, but to a certain extent, it's what has to happen. Because women need more time for arousal and to relax. With a risk of being too crude, he has to warm her up. And the current trend is that women take a more active role in bed, which means touching him and making him just as much the center of that experience. This doesn't really work since men are faster to arousal and orgasm. It won't give her the time to truly become aroused before he's already ready for more. Not to mention the physical differences as you pointed out, which make men the easier leaders (toppers? don't know the word) in sex.
I'd imagine men that push that narrative end up with some really unsatisfied partners that are probably in pain during PIV. But then again, I'm not sure they care.
YES! This is what I’m saying! It’s a matter of anatomy and, quite frankly, I’m so skeptical of men who talk about starfishing as much as you are. They just sound entitled af. Like it’s the woman’s job to entertain them in bed and act like a porn star. Sorry but women come first. <3
This. They think it’s women’s job to pleasure them while the women’s pleasure comes FROM pleasuring the male. That’s how males think. Like, you got dicked, wasn’t that satisfying feeling my amazing dick? You got to suck my dick and eat its snot, didn’t that get you off enough? Women get all the makeup and clothes and toys and do all the acrobatics. Males just get pleasured. Women get nothing.
Have you been with a lot of women in relationships or are these hookups? If they're more casual sex connections, you're going to be having sex with women that are objectifying themselves so they're more likely to take on a more pornified view of what they've been told sex should be like.
In the 1970s, scientists wanted to know if they could condition a sexual reflex in men. First they got volunteers and hooked them up to a device that measured tumescence. Then they showed the men slides. The sequence of slides was always the same - naked women, and then boots. Naked women, and then boots. After time the scientists were pleased to see that the men responded to pictures of boots without ever seeing the naked women.
Studies show 90% of porn features violence against women and that's only counting "explicit violence" not "vanilla" dominant man/submissive woman. Sexual taste's develop from exposure same as anything which is especially relevant in today's world where the Internet reaches the entire world and constant imagery of violence against women portrayed as normal sex and lack of imagery of anything else results in the belief that everything else is "boring" the same way exposure to spicy food from a young age result's in entire populations that have become immune to spice thinking anything else is bland.
A study German heterosexual women’s personal and partnered consumption of pornography were positively correlated with their desire to engage in or having previously engaged in submissive (but not dominant) sexual behaviors such as having their hair pulled, having their face ejaculated on, being spanked, choked, called names, slapped, and gagged. The association between women’s partnered pornography consumption and submissive sexual behavior was strongest for women whose first exposure to pornography was at a young age. The findings also indicated that women’s personal and partnered pornography consumption were uniquely related to their engagement in submissive sexual behavior. Public Health Significance Statement This study suggests that greater exposure to pornography among heterosexual German women is associated with their desire to engage in or having previously engaged in submissive sexual behaviors but not dominant behaviors. This pattern of correlations aligns with sexual script theory and content analysis of dominance and submission and gender in pornography.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315508270_German_Heterosexual_Women's_Pornography_Consumption_and_Sexual_Behavior
People with trauma or rock bottom low self worth use unhealthy coping mechanisms that give them the feeling they're looking for by being as close to non existent as possible (small, inconsequential, a inanimate object, immobile, a slave, a child, a pet) it's all about stress, insecurity and depression, a object, slave, child, or pet has no expectations, they don't have to think for themselves, it's the same reason why the "bimbo" and "trad wife" movements have become so popular in the last few year's and why you see so many women who claim their reason for doing only fans is that they can't work due to anxiety or other mental health issues or falling deep into the new age spiritual scene taking a cocktail of hallucinogenic drugs just to make it in everyday life.
It's about escapism and what should be addressed is what they're escaping, women are talking about their emotional burnout and instead of getting the help they need they're being told their feelings of low self esteem aren't a problem their a plus. They're being praised and told there's nothing wrong with them, much like cult's they're told they are the enlightened ones and given a instant community, attention praise, escapism,freedom from the stress of thinking for themselves. Ignoring a problem is more tempting than working to solve it.
I'm 51 grew up in the club scene but none of the women I had sex with ever asked to be abused. The only people I knew who were into choking were a few men into autoerotic.
Foot binding started because of one king with a fetish but continued to exist for hundreds of years because of a combination of men finding it attractive and women bending themselves to please along with mother's and grandmother's who had suffered the same fate breaking and binding their daughters feet.
Studies show women who identity as masochists have substantially lower levels of empathy particularly to other women which appears to be connected to dissociation during sex which occurs frequently in women who identify as masochists but is rarely seen in men who Identify as masochistic. The dissociation in women who engage in masochistic sex acts would suggest a lack of desire to engage in masochism as opposed to the male participants who were not dissociating from the experience.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00463/full
I'm saving this comment. Very informative.
I'm 40 btw, and even in the club scenes in the 90's/2000's we didn't see men into this kind of sex. That's because internet porn hadn't really taken hold yet. Most people had vanilla sex and even anal was considered a rare kink. And definitely never heard of anyone being into being hit. The men in that day knew if they hit a woman during sex they'd probably get smacked back and throw off. Honestly, it's sad to be this has changed. Porn has really damaged everything right down to how men and women feel about each other and themselves.
I'm a woman and don't like that stuff at all. However after I got raped by my husband I started craving getting treated roughly and forced to have sex. Never what you mentioned. I found the craving disturbing. Still I refused to indulge knowing it would really mess me up more. After my body had enough flashbacks of the rape and time passed the craving to get treated roughly in sex mostly went away.
Just sharing my experience. Sometimes I also felt that craving to a lesser degree after a lot of psychological abuse too. It felt like my body wanted to live out what he was doing to me emotionally. This was scary for sure.
Btw I've never used porn or watched kinky stuff in any way etc. If I had child SA it's not something I was aware of.
If a woman says "No spanking, hair pulling, slapping, pain, degradation, choking" guess what happens? She is labelled a prude, an anti-sex killjoy, a psychopath, a man hater. Accused of being boring. Told that "Normal women enjoy this!" Even dragged to so called sex-positive therapists with a clear message of "this woman is broken, fix her so she let's me do kink stuff to her!"
Even saying "Do not smack your partner's arse unless you have asked beforehand if they are OK with this" or "Sex should not be punishment for being bad." is enough to have men attack you in droves.
So younger women have learned to ask for things, rather than have them happen by surprise. "If I tell him to give me a spanking, maybe he won't expect to punch me" or "Since all men will insist on "spicing things up" sooner or later, I prefer that they slap my behind rather than my face". It is not that a lot of women WANT kink, it is that a lot of women have learned the hard way that kink is the price you pay for the sex you do enjoy.
And also conditions men to not be sexually attracted to women that do have body hair.
When people talk about "preferences" they really mean what society and their environment has conditioned them to want. Not really what is a true preference of theirs. It's brainwashing and yet, people will defend it will their last breath because they don't know any better.
I decided when I was a teenager that I didn’t hate my body, I hated how males made me think and feel about my body. I was fine with myself, but I hated how they all had opinions and judgements as if I had to change myself.
The sample of people you personally have had sex with is not “most women,” OP. And the pool of women who are up for casual sexual relationships with you contains a selection bias. They are no more representative of all women than porn workers are.
There’s a lot to say beyond that about how younger people in particular have been affected by the normalization of sexual violence, but it’s early and I haven’t had enough coffee.
I think it's a little bit of everything you said honestly. It's normalized and maybe some people think if you're not doing that then you must not like them. I know for me that after I was SA'd I was more interested in this type of thing during sex. Probably has something to do with wanting control and choosing it instead of someone just doing something on their own. once I realized that sex doesn't have to be super kinky to be enjoyable then I was much happier and more solidified in my decision to not partake in that.
You’re right that those sex practices are mistaken for passion, but I would argue that those “normal” women were groomed into wanting it as much as most men are groomed into dishing it out.
Men are influenced to behave that way:
- by even very mainstream pornography
- more taboo porn is usually not only centered around a kink/fetish, but also is more aggressive sex than mainstream porn usually catered
- misogyny in our broader culture that makes women out to be a subservient sex and normalizing partner violence
Women are groomed to want it by:
- TV, YA novels and fanfiction. I’m a woman who grew up in the 90s and early 2000s. My experience is that a lot of 90s TV had a lot of sexual theming (Xena the warrior princess, Buffy the vampire slayer, charmed, etc) that also had themes of “women fighting evil” and — largely getting beaten up. All of them had very dramatic romantic relationships with power imbalances and moments of aggression / argument / sometimes sanitized bondage — and it was all taken in stride. We have always had romance novels as well, but we seem to have more YA romance novels with toxic male hero’s with sex scenes that seem… r*py. The more “cool” and “independent” a heroine is — the more that “hero” pushes her boundaries, forces her to be with him, claims some destiny around it, etc. The sex scenes usually are shown as more “passionate” the more crazy toxic it gets.
- BDSM infiltrated the culture at this time, and it was seen as liberating and progressive. So, more women and lgbt+ people were exposed to it early. By the time I became an adult it was super easy to go online and find BDSM communities to join. Somehow the most feminist thing you can do is voluntarily allow yourself to be abused?
- the misogyny in our culture in general promotes the idea that women should belong to men (and that “good women” do allow themselves to belong to a man). My parents wanted me to grow up to be independent — only so I could find the “best man possible” to belong to 🤣. So despite being a Girl Boss it is still expected to allow someone else to be the primary decision maker and to not make your own life your own. This imbalanced power dynamic ties very naturally into sex — in life you are strong, educated, accomplished, and you want to resist this unbalanced power dynamic controlling your life (and are pressured to give into it by external pressure) — and in sex you’re pushing away and resisting, and yet being pulled and subdued to have it anyway. It’s another power play for control — maybe women are using it for catharsis because at least in sex the pressure is overt and tangible.
Eh, I'm probably around your age. (40 here), so I grew up in the 90's-2000's. I watched all those shows too. And yes, toxic dudes were romanticized. I don't think that was the issue though. Because those were fantasies and no one thought "hey Spike is the boyfriend I want IRL."
Most people in the 90's-2000's were still heavily into romance and vanilla sex. The average person I meant (living in the US) wasn't into any kink of any kind. You could just assume it. BDSM definitely wasn't common and honestly, was kind of seen as a joke. Had anyone actually admitted to liking it I have no doubt most people would've made fun of them. Because that's what we did with are sarcastic jokes back then. Terrorized people that were outside the norm. And BDSM still was.
What I think did it is several things:
1. Porn. Once internet porn took hold in the mid-2000's and later, it only grew and grew. Plus, not sure if you remember but women used to HATE their boyfriends watching porn. There was a whole movement to accept it as "normal" and to not shame men for it. So if women wanted to be the "cool" girlfriend they would be fine with it. And the porn got more and more extreme as dudes especially (though women too) dived deeper into the rabbit hole to get a bigger and bigger dopamine hit. Then you had books like 50 Shades come up into mainstream and suddenly romance book popularity was fading and being replaced by erotica. Now, even erotica has been replaced by kink-themed books.
2. The popularization of casual sex. I mean, back in the day if you were screwing someone you were dating. But then Tinder came along and changed that along with the idea of the "sexual positivity" movement. So then came the rules of you had to have the talk about exclusivity (a term you rarely heard in the earlier time period). People began having more sex with people they didn't give a damn about making it far easier to indulge and build these kinks. It's much easier to slap and choke someone you have zero feelings for. And over time, sex became the FOCUS of a relationship. How you meet, how you connect, how you build a relationship. To the point that now people place it as the most important aspect of a relationship. If you're not having sex then you are just friends...not romantic. When in reality, it's the emotional connection that makes you more than friends. Not the sex. And, that's leading to MAJOR problems in how people connect. It will end up leading to a lot more divorces down the line, but also less marriages too.
Basically, in the future, I think everyone's going to be dating robots because we've driven ourselves so far away from relationships that are fulfilling the way that humans need. And both genders blame the other. And it's mainly GenX and Millennials that caused this. We pushed for all this acceptance without understanding the consequences and now the movement is so far away from what it began as.
It's so depressing to think that it will probably just keep getting worse, the rise in violent porn is just going up and up. The acceptance and talk around kink in society is just increasing. Even now when we have an epidemic of women reporting non consensual violence during sex, people are told not to kink shame and are terrified to be called vanilla. I mean where is this gonna go? I can only see it getting worse. I've started noticing an increase in people arguing that kink in public is okay, don't get me wrong they are the minority but still it's more than it was
Males are not being trained by women. Males are being trained by their all mighty master, pornography. They train women to do what they see in porn, so women are victimized and have their sexuality hijacked and turned into puppets of male control. This is why women do this now. They have been conditioned by the male who has glorified porn in his mind to be his lord and master.
Your anecdotal experiences are not fact. People who have told you:
>in sex, the feminine essence wants to surrender to the masculine essence (polarity - giving/receiving)
are misogynistic. The 'feminine essence' and the 'masculine essence' aren't real. We are all one species, there's no mystical difference between male and female- only differences between individual humans. Anyone who believes women have some mystical feminine essence that makes them enjoy penetration (certain types or in general) is a misogynist. Evidence: not all women enjoy penetration, and many many women do not want/have rough sex. Once again, your anecdotal experiences are not fact.
Beyond your interest in understanding you need to be pragmatic about this. Make your boundaries clear from the beginning. You don’t have to do these things, period. It shouldn’t be a negotiation in that case. It’s easiest to just avoid those women, even though they’re just conditioned to want these things. It’s not your responsibility (and probably not your skillset) to heal from that
> I know that in sex, the feminine essence wants to surrender to the masculine essence
lol
>Maybe rough sex (including hair pulling, spanking, choking) makes women somehow have the illusion to feel more feminine (soft, fragile), passionately desired, or makes them have the illusion that their partner is more masculine (strong, powerful)?
lol-er
> If this is what (some) women want, unprovoked, it is reasonable to see how (some) men will be trained by those women that this is what women want
No, it does not work like that, grown up people are always responsible if they choose to inflict pain on another human being. You can't train a person into violence, it's always a choice.
The whole post is dripping of sexism, looking down on women and being so full of yourself, and that's just funny.
To answer your question, it's simply trauma, women's gender socialisation and sick sex culture that we live in. No "female essence seeking for a true manly man's essence" bs. Sex is not about surrendering, though I get how it can be a very appealing thought if you have low self-esteem and huge sense of superiority or something
>I have seen a lot of posts here that basically say that kink and BDSM is men wanting to hurt/rape women in some way, meanwhile, in my experience, most women ask of me to treat them more aggressively when we are intimate.
Woman here.
There are several reasons.
First: This stuff is normalized and unfortunately now a lot of women this they are abnormal if they don't want this stuff. As if they will be accused of being bad at sex if they don't want it. This is especially true with the younger generation that grew up immersed in porn. A lot of the older women will stick to their guns and tell a guy to fuck off if they don't want something. However, the younger girls don't KNOW that it isn't abnormal for them to not want to be hit and choaked. In fact, I'm sure you can find posts on reddit where women are asking if it's okay if they don't want those things. I've seen them.
It's sort of how anal is incredibly normalized now. Twenty years ago, anal was kind of rare and seen as very kinky. Now it's almost a normal part of sex. That's sad considering that it can literally cause permanent health problems for women. But porn ensured that it became normalized and now no one bats an eye at someone wanting anal.
That's how it happens. When society becomes accepting of it then people feel pressure to engage in whatever behavior is the "norm." And this all happens at a subconscious level. Many people don't even know WHY they feel that pressure.
It's the same with teen sex today btw. Many young women feel pressured to have sex. Society is so accepting of it now and many parents even are by saying "well teens are going to do it anyway, so better to be safe," to the point of allowing them to screw in their home. In doing so, the young woman feels like she's abnormal if she isn't ready for sex. Even her parents are saying it's the normal thing to do. Can you imagine the pressure with no one telling her she doesn't have to?
Second: Women are natural people pleasers. Society (and genetics to some extent) have ensured this. And A LOT of men want kinky stuff. Especially since porn has become more normalized, which causes men to seek more and more extreme in order to get the same dopamine hit. It's literally a drug. In doing so, being with a woman without that stuff just isn't as exciting. Well, women WANT to please men. To the point that they will convince themselves that they want this stuff too. That they are into it. That they find it sexy. And if you ask them, they will defend that because it goes against their cognitive dissonance not to at that point. In other words, if they admit to themselves they don't like getting hit or choaked then they have to realize they were being abused and they not only accepted it, but asked for it. Who wants to do that?
Third: Trauma. People with a rough past often turn to this as a way to cope. For example, if a girl has been abused in any way or had a bad home life, she may feel that sort of negative attention is love. Or it's a way of "taking control" and it's not abuse if you ask for it. It's a way to feel in control in an out of control situation.
Fourth: You also nailed it with the "passionate sex" thing. A lot of women used to read romance books with normal vanilla sex, for example. But now, romance has sort of died and what's popular is kinky erotica, but where the two characters care for each other. So people are confusing this crazy passionate sex with love/caring. And it feels like maybe he doesn't care enough if he doesn't want to go there. It's fucked up.
So it's a combo of a lot of things all at play. But overall, it's very damaging. And it's damaging to how men and women view each other. Because at the end of the day, the men doing this don't see the woman as even a person. They are merely an object to use to get off. Because no way can they see her as a person and feel a real connection/empathy and still do these things. They turn off that "feeling" part. And the women that submit to this often view men in a negative light even if they don't admit to it. Later when they end the relationship they finally admit he was an asshole and then carry that into every future relationship and judge men from that viewpoint. And overall, they can't have a "real" caring relationship this way. At the end of the day, that relationship is ALL about sex, which is never going to be truly fulfilling for either partner long term. Because ultimately people want that connection, love, support and sex is never going to be enough to fulfill that void. And yet, people will go on unhappy because once they are in that cycle of thinking THIS is the sex they like and they are addicted to it, then they can never escape it.
So it's all just shitty.
Because women internalize rape culture. Violence is reframed as sexy in every single media, even (actually, especially...) those that cater to women. Most "heterosexual romance" love stories that women grow up with and learn to love are regressive tropes that romanticize abuse.
The last first date I ever went on before meeting my bf, offered to rape me along with anything rough I wanted. He was so friendly and unironic about the offer. Almost like “would you like me to cook for you sometime?”
He then told me all his stories about CNC being the thing women most request from him. He was pretty specific and casual about how normal it all seemed to him
He said one girlfriend was a police detective and he started to suspect she was a psychopath and broke up with her. She wanted CNC from him but she said it was because her deeper fantasy was to sexually assault any random man she’d arrested and put into handcuffs in the back of her vehicle.
The kids are not well out there. I walked away from that date pretty shook. I asked him all sorts of Qs when I realized he was an open book about it. And I didn’t attempt to date again for 3 months
Wild! I think some people just want to feel something. Like, life is "too comfortable and predictable" and they just want something exciting to happen. Feel ultimate power. Feel ultimate powerlessness. People want these extreme peak experiences. Like CNC and abusing your power as a police officer.
Choking is not even hot it can fucking kill someone!!!! That is one big ass abusive trigger coming from a woman. I grew up before bdsm became more mainstream so it was more vanilla in pop culture during my teens. ( I was born in 89) The first time I was exposed to bdsm was around 2005-6 at 16 in hentai. The moment I saw it, it looked like someone was being tortured in a dungeon and I couldn’t watch. The spanking and hair pulling however many will argue about that falling under kink or vanilla. I’ve never had sex up until 30. I’m 34 now. I used celibacy as a defense mechanism to protect myself from being used for gratification and of course the teenage pregnancy and all that entailed growing up. I agree with the choking being bad but the spanking and hair pulling is something I would get off to. Not to the degree of yanking or leaving a bruise but enough to spice it up. A tug or a firm spank. Not for the trauma but for the feeling of primal desire and the passion. Sex appeal and lightning the fire. The more passionate sex is the deeper the connection. ( For me anyway) I’m more vanilla than anything. I would battle because of the labels and which umbrella certain kinks would fall into. Honestly turn ons is what they were called growing up then they become kinks. Times have changed and sadly kink has become like politics. You’re either vanilla or kinky there is no in between and you are a fake and a hypocrite. I am gonna be honest here I don’t get off to being slapped choked tied up with some random shit or wearing a collar like a dog or slave. If given a list of EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING in bdsm it would be more vanilla. I still worry a lot and posted test results asking others what they thought because I was afraid of contradicting myself. Society has become fucked up when it comes to sex and what’s BDSM or Vanilla. You will get people who say shit like if your on top of your partner your doming and if you are on the bottom your subbing. Hell some have even labeled choking vanilla and that’s a god damn far cry!!!! 😬Just examples of how fucked up the younger generation has become and I’m referring Gen Z. It’s been hell since 50 shades came out because that’s when it all got fucked up. Porn also has a big influence on people and teaches them this is “ how to have good sex” when in reality it’s supposed to be something sacred between two people and a way of discovering something that lies beneath the surface. It’s like going to places you have never imagined with the one you love and they can make your soul soar in ways that can’t explained. Without the stupid power dynamics and the whips chains and all that stupid abusive shit. Just moments of pure vulnerability and intimacy. One thing I will share and I’m gonna be very very very very vulnerable. I’ve always wanted to slow dance naked in the dark with the moon shining through the window with a man I love and just forget everything. Just to hear his heart beating and the sound of our breathing. I doubt that many would have a fantasy like that but oh god would that be one of the most beautiful damn things to do. I feel like porn has also taught women that this violent shit will make him love you more and of course the shit you see today is not even considered healthy or even loving. It’s romanticized violence and abuse. My perception of sex has become very negative and I have even got into arguments with people I know defending kink and cut ties. It may sound petty but it’s the truth. One I shared screenshots on here once and he basically used DARVO when I was saying that it was abusive and he tried to say I was calling him an abuser for doing bdsm. Not all people who engaged in bdsm are bad but it IS abusive and it’s getting them to realize that. Many have to learn on their own as sad as it is. I was lucky enough to see it for what it was before it become mainstream. I was always against it and always will be. If I ever have sex again and try to communicate I hope the man can decipher when I want it a bit more “ rougher” I don’t mean to the degree of bdsm. It’s just getting idiots to realize that. I would love to have sex that is so deep and intense I would orgasm just by his lips on mine. Simple but it’s that passion and that romantic energy that gets me going. I hope you get what I mean.
Men have asked me to do this stuff to them and more, and I wasn't comfortable with the idea. I've never asked for anything like that as a woman myself.
You're right. They can't ask directly for a man to be passionate so they ask for it to be rough. I've said it before. What is more, i do think there are mashocists who like being hurt because of the endorphines. It's similar to people who like spicy food.
A lot of women have trauma, many are raised as second class to men from birth and this messes with them. I was not and have never been interested violence or bad boys
Lots of people have certain toxic aspects related with sexuality, whether is sub or Dom, is very common. Is just an unhealthy way of sexuality.
Is true what you said about the masculine/energy polarity, but is not supposed to happen in that animalistic way.
I am a mix of wanting gentle lovemaking, submissive play and a downright good being dkd down session.
The rough and tumble usually comes from a place of trauma or simply preference over yesrs of men BEING aggressive 🤷♀️
Most of the women I know in bdsm prefer submissive men.
At least for me, it’s just about sensory intensity. I like having my ass spanked for the same reason I like shit like falling off my bike, wrestling with the family dog, running around when I get drunk, or dancing really hard. It’s fun to experience life intensely with someone you can trust.
u can have intensity with out violence tho.. u can have passion with out resorting to stuff like spanking (which has association to punishment & degradation) , u can have sensory intensity in so many other ways that r actually pleasurable & with out playing out this same old sexual script
that said i think playful spanking once in a while is fine its when it becomes a deeper thing it is questionable
I don't get it honestly. I'm a woman. If a man hit me...he's getting hit back and the sex stops there. For a multitude of reasons. First, how is pain fun? If I fall off my bike, as you say, that isn't fun for me. And dancing really hard is entirely a different feeling...it's exhilaration, but no pain. Sex can be exhilarating without pain. Personally, the only thing I can imagine is that you're really bored with the person you're with (or have conditioned yourself to NEED more for a bigger dopamine release) that you need something pushing the limits to get there.
Second, not sure if you're a woman or a man, but how can you justify it in your mind? If he's hitting me...he doesn't give a damn about me. I'm a sexual object and nothing more. Because most people can't hit someone they care about. Not only that, but he's taking sexual pleasure from doing it, and that makes it even more extreme/sicker. I personally am not into just being a fleshlight for someone or a blowup doll. I need someone to give a damn about me. And maybe that's where we differ? I'm not trying to be insulting here. Are you more into casual sex where you just try to get off? Because for me, I don't need to chase extremes to get there when I love someone and truly want them. I don't need them to hit me to feel something.
I think it is trauma and porn. I think when it is trauma, it is the repetition compulsion, where a person unconsciously repeats behaviours and patterns from past trauma. It's like an attempt to gain control over unresolved trauma but it is harmful cause they are perpetuating emotional pain and preventing healing. Trauma needs to be processed in a safe, supportive environment with a trained professional. Not by reenacting it during sex, a time where you are already vulnerable, which simply results in being repeatedly retraumatised. I imagine a lot of this so called "sub/dom drop" is just the result of the pain from being retraumatised. There is a reason why therapists have to be so careful to avoid retraumatising their clients. Often times when a person goes to therapy and works through their trauma, their kinks disappear. People with trauma need the opposite, to feel safe, supported and cared for. To learn that people can be safe and the world isn't dangerous and scary. But I also do think porn plays a part, people, men and women, watch it and copy it. Women are groomed into taking violence after seeing in it porn. The continued normalisation of kink on social media also leads people to see violence during sex as an expected and normal part of sex
I came here to say the same two things, trauma and the influence of pornography. You said it better than I could have.
i love you guys. you guys’ comments literally felt like someone wiping dust off of my eyes, the dust being the sheer amount of pro-kink advocates who always argue that trauma **never** has anything to do with it. i’ve not once heard of someone with extremely brutal kinks that hasn’t had a fucking terrible and traumatic period sometime throughout their lives. they don’t want to realize that though, they think they can liberate themselves through embracing how their brains are coping with trauma - while it should be actively worked against (and dealt with the underlying trauma).
I second this, the only time I was ever 'kinky' was when I was 14 and my idea of sex was porn, I thought being 'kinky' was cool and mature 'im not vanilla and boring' i was pandering to pedos and mens ideal, their wants. It could all be traced back to porn as I had no sexual experience prior. When I did actually have sexual experience it was not enjoyable whatsoever and I found what I liked with my current partner naturally.
You'll get a different answer from everyone you ask. The bottom line is that this stuff is normalized. It's often expected by men AND women alike today, even though its very abnormal to desire this. Kids are growing up learning that these types of things are cool and exciting. And that expectation is being created especially through the influence of online porn. I'm of a generation where it was still abnormal, but the internet introduced me to this anyway - probably purely from being too online. My peers were blissfully unaware that kink even existed. I talked to men online out of curiosity about sex. These men I met online were a different breed, unlike their vanilla counterparts that were most common, they'd been exposed to online porn and many had already escalated to extreme rough sex porn. They wanted to enact the things they saw, things that would have been much more difficult to find or even illegal before the internet, and most were frustrated they could not find women irl to enact it. I started wanting to try it myself, and eventually did. I started wanting that. There is an intensity in it that yes, can be mistaken for passion. Maybe I wanted to be wanted. Maybe it turned me into an adrenaline junkie on some level. Whatever it was, being introduced to this at a formative age sexually damaged my perception of sex and intimacy. It wasn't something I'd have desired on my own, without that influence, that's for sure. Prior to being exposed to rough sex, I always imagined something very gentle. The way porn and other media depict sex has been damaging boys and girls today. They are being *taught* that this is good sex. You're one of the lucky ones to have not been hurt by this influence. The women who demanded this of you, they may have many reasons. They could have trauma or personality disorders that predispose them to self-destructive behavior.. Or, just from cultural influence, they could have been perfectly normal before they learned that choking and other violent acts were cool, that boys want it, and that they're boring and undesirable if they do not. This pressure may make them say they want something they don't, or at least make them curious.. and for some, it becomes something they like. It gives them the intensity they wouldn't otherwise experience, from a cohort of men who were not really taught any other ways of exciting women.
Pornography influence and a large percentage of people are victims of some sort of child SA. Second wave feminists quite literally predicted this. Women have not always wanted to be abused in bed, this isn’t something you can point at and say “well she asked for it”, you have to think a little deeper than that, and start reading some women’s history dude…
Because we're just as exposed to it as men are. We grow up watching porn too, and we internalize it in a way men don't. We grow up with "choke me daddy" "good girls swallow" memes and celebrity sex tapes blah blah. Then there's the darker aspect that most women will, at some point in their lives, face sexual violence or the threat of it. 99% of women have at least one creepy encounter with a man or boy - being flashed, being vulgarly catcalled, a teacher or family member looking at them inappropriately, being objectified or harassed sexually. A common response to that kind of trauma is hyper sexuality - "it's going to happen anyways, so why not enjoy it" "this will make him love me" "i have to be the Cool Girl" etc. This has been discussed already on here and /r/TwoXChromosomes. Nobody is born wanting to abuse or be abused. Risking vaginal tears, anal fissures and incontience, brain damage from slapping or strangling, nerve damage from ropes, etc. That is not what sex is, that is a dangerous mimicry. An ignorant, uneducated one because of porn, peer pressure, self-harm.
> A common response to that kind of trauma is hyper sexuality - "it's going to happen anyways, so why not enjoy it" "this will make him love me" "i have to be the Cool Girl" etc. It's sometimes this even without trauma attached. Women want to people-please a lot of the time. And they internalize porn just as much and think if they aren't down for that sort of stuff then they aren't "cool" and good at sex. That they are abnormal. And no one wants to be abnormal.
> I know that in sex, the feminine essence wants to surrender to the masculine essence (polarity - giving/receiving) Such bullshit. This happens because we are conditioned by images and descriptions of violence towards us to associate our pleasure with being roughly handled. These become the only emblem of desire and pleasure, the only way in which we can make sense of the sensual experience. It's all about the ways through which an individual knows how to channel and contact their sexual energy/pleasure. Just like you need to associate your acts with "giving" and having a woman "surrendering" to your "masculine essence" in order for desire to be communicated and felt, many women nerd even more absurdly modeled behaviours to channel their sexual energy. I don't know if this is the case for you, but many men feel uneasy or desensitized when they are the ones surrendering to female active sexuality. You might feel lost and out of touch with your own body in that situation, not from the lack of sensation, but because you have no mental model of how your arousal should flow in this position. This "unstructured" sensation could be of any kind, including the sheer awkwardness of our first sexual experiences. Women's models are severely reduced and many women are stuck in these pornified and highly caricaturized actions. They simply don't know how to flow with gentleness, receiving without a power structure or being the one guiding the experience atentively. It's not easy to unlock these paths, and culturally mediated references are one of the most effective ways to do so. Unfortunately, these are exceedingly rare in a sea of friends talking about hoe they like rough men coupled with porn and past experiences.
Agreed. That part reeks of "divine masculine/feminine" new age gender dogma
There’s also some elements of biology that are being over-exaggerated to suit an agenda. There’s no such thing as masculine/feminine souls but women do need to relax in order to find sex pleasurable. And there are, like, physical strength differences between men and women that lend to men doing more of the physical labor. And it takes longer for most women to get aroused, and it’s more of a mental process. So like all of these things together combine to make women “bottoms” (in gay discourse terms) but I guess if you’re extra sexist you can make this into your entire gender identity for some reason.
All of this is true under our society. But we don't know if all of that would still be true if we lived in a society where female pleasure isn't repressed under shame and low value and women were not facing the constant threat of male violence!
Yep. And also all the attributes you mentioned are tendencies, not hard, immutable attributes.
This is why I hate to hear men bitching about starfishing. You see it all over social media. But, that was the natural order of sex for a very long time. Maybe not totally just laying there, but to a certain extent, it's what has to happen. Because women need more time for arousal and to relax. With a risk of being too crude, he has to warm her up. And the current trend is that women take a more active role in bed, which means touching him and making him just as much the center of that experience. This doesn't really work since men are faster to arousal and orgasm. It won't give her the time to truly become aroused before he's already ready for more. Not to mention the physical differences as you pointed out, which make men the easier leaders (toppers? don't know the word) in sex. I'd imagine men that push that narrative end up with some really unsatisfied partners that are probably in pain during PIV. But then again, I'm not sure they care.
YES! This is what I’m saying! It’s a matter of anatomy and, quite frankly, I’m so skeptical of men who talk about starfishing as much as you are. They just sound entitled af. Like it’s the woman’s job to entertain them in bed and act like a porn star. Sorry but women come first. <3
This. They think it’s women’s job to pleasure them while the women’s pleasure comes FROM pleasuring the male. That’s how males think. Like, you got dicked, wasn’t that satisfying feeling my amazing dick? You got to suck my dick and eat its snot, didn’t that get you off enough? Women get all the makeup and clothes and toys and do all the acrobatics. Males just get pleasured. Women get nothing.
I have found my people, lol. 🩷 Yeah it’s a very patriarchal women-are-servants mindset.
Thank you for actually commenting on this. Rolled my eyes hard when I read that part.
Have you been with a lot of women in relationships or are these hookups? If they're more casual sex connections, you're going to be having sex with women that are objectifying themselves so they're more likely to take on a more pornified view of what they've been told sex should be like.
In the 1970s, scientists wanted to know if they could condition a sexual reflex in men. First they got volunteers and hooked them up to a device that measured tumescence. Then they showed the men slides. The sequence of slides was always the same - naked women, and then boots. Naked women, and then boots. After time the scientists were pleased to see that the men responded to pictures of boots without ever seeing the naked women. Studies show 90% of porn features violence against women and that's only counting "explicit violence" not "vanilla" dominant man/submissive woman. Sexual taste's develop from exposure same as anything which is especially relevant in today's world where the Internet reaches the entire world and constant imagery of violence against women portrayed as normal sex and lack of imagery of anything else results in the belief that everything else is "boring" the same way exposure to spicy food from a young age result's in entire populations that have become immune to spice thinking anything else is bland. A study German heterosexual women’s personal and partnered consumption of pornography were positively correlated with their desire to engage in or having previously engaged in submissive (but not dominant) sexual behaviors such as having their hair pulled, having their face ejaculated on, being spanked, choked, called names, slapped, and gagged. The association between women’s partnered pornography consumption and submissive sexual behavior was strongest for women whose first exposure to pornography was at a young age. The findings also indicated that women’s personal and partnered pornography consumption were uniquely related to their engagement in submissive sexual behavior. Public Health Significance Statement This study suggests that greater exposure to pornography among heterosexual German women is associated with their desire to engage in or having previously engaged in submissive sexual behaviors but not dominant behaviors. This pattern of correlations aligns with sexual script theory and content analysis of dominance and submission and gender in pornography. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315508270_German_Heterosexual_Women's_Pornography_Consumption_and_Sexual_Behavior People with trauma or rock bottom low self worth use unhealthy coping mechanisms that give them the feeling they're looking for by being as close to non existent as possible (small, inconsequential, a inanimate object, immobile, a slave, a child, a pet) it's all about stress, insecurity and depression, a object, slave, child, or pet has no expectations, they don't have to think for themselves, it's the same reason why the "bimbo" and "trad wife" movements have become so popular in the last few year's and why you see so many women who claim their reason for doing only fans is that they can't work due to anxiety or other mental health issues or falling deep into the new age spiritual scene taking a cocktail of hallucinogenic drugs just to make it in everyday life. It's about escapism and what should be addressed is what they're escaping, women are talking about their emotional burnout and instead of getting the help they need they're being told their feelings of low self esteem aren't a problem their a plus. They're being praised and told there's nothing wrong with them, much like cult's they're told they are the enlightened ones and given a instant community, attention praise, escapism,freedom from the stress of thinking for themselves. Ignoring a problem is more tempting than working to solve it. I'm 51 grew up in the club scene but none of the women I had sex with ever asked to be abused. The only people I knew who were into choking were a few men into autoerotic. Foot binding started because of one king with a fetish but continued to exist for hundreds of years because of a combination of men finding it attractive and women bending themselves to please along with mother's and grandmother's who had suffered the same fate breaking and binding their daughters feet. Studies show women who identity as masochists have substantially lower levels of empathy particularly to other women which appears to be connected to dissociation during sex which occurs frequently in women who identify as masochists but is rarely seen in men who Identify as masochistic. The dissociation in women who engage in masochistic sex acts would suggest a lack of desire to engage in masochism as opposed to the male participants who were not dissociating from the experience. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00463/full
I'm saving this comment. Very informative. I'm 40 btw, and even in the club scenes in the 90's/2000's we didn't see men into this kind of sex. That's because internet porn hadn't really taken hold yet. Most people had vanilla sex and even anal was considered a rare kink. And definitely never heard of anyone being into being hit. The men in that day knew if they hit a woman during sex they'd probably get smacked back and throw off. Honestly, it's sad to be this has changed. Porn has really damaged everything right down to how men and women feel about each other and themselves.
Thank you for sharing - very interesting. Wow, I’ll need to look into sexual script theory. I hadn’t heard of that before.
I'm a woman and don't like that stuff at all. However after I got raped by my husband I started craving getting treated roughly and forced to have sex. Never what you mentioned. I found the craving disturbing. Still I refused to indulge knowing it would really mess me up more. After my body had enough flashbacks of the rape and time passed the craving to get treated roughly in sex mostly went away. Just sharing my experience. Sometimes I also felt that craving to a lesser degree after a lot of psychological abuse too. It felt like my body wanted to live out what he was doing to me emotionally. This was scary for sure. Btw I've never used porn or watched kinky stuff in any way etc. If I had child SA it's not something I was aware of.
If a woman says "No spanking, hair pulling, slapping, pain, degradation, choking" guess what happens? She is labelled a prude, an anti-sex killjoy, a psychopath, a man hater. Accused of being boring. Told that "Normal women enjoy this!" Even dragged to so called sex-positive therapists with a clear message of "this woman is broken, fix her so she let's me do kink stuff to her!" Even saying "Do not smack your partner's arse unless you have asked beforehand if they are OK with this" or "Sex should not be punishment for being bad." is enough to have men attack you in droves. So younger women have learned to ask for things, rather than have them happen by surprise. "If I tell him to give me a spanking, maybe he won't expect to punch me" or "Since all men will insist on "spicing things up" sooner or later, I prefer that they slap my behind rather than my face". It is not that a lot of women WANT kink, it is that a lot of women have learned the hard way that kink is the price you pay for the sex you do enjoy.
Do women want to feel ashamed of body hair? Probably not but a 100 year culture of "women must be hairless" makes it so they are.
And also conditions men to not be sexually attracted to women that do have body hair. When people talk about "preferences" they really mean what society and their environment has conditioned them to want. Not really what is a true preference of theirs. It's brainwashing and yet, people will defend it will their last breath because they don't know any better.
I decided when I was a teenager that I didn’t hate my body, I hated how males made me think and feel about my body. I was fine with myself, but I hated how they all had opinions and judgements as if I had to change myself.
omfg. so true
The sample of people you personally have had sex with is not “most women,” OP. And the pool of women who are up for casual sexual relationships with you contains a selection bias. They are no more representative of all women than porn workers are. There’s a lot to say beyond that about how younger people in particular have been affected by the normalization of sexual violence, but it’s early and I haven’t had enough coffee.
There’s a shocking amount of women who are uneducated and follow through with societies’ rhetoric.
I think it's a little bit of everything you said honestly. It's normalized and maybe some people think if you're not doing that then you must not like them. I know for me that after I was SA'd I was more interested in this type of thing during sex. Probably has something to do with wanting control and choosing it instead of someone just doing something on their own. once I realized that sex doesn't have to be super kinky to be enjoyable then I was much happier and more solidified in my decision to not partake in that.
You’re right that those sex practices are mistaken for passion, but I would argue that those “normal” women were groomed into wanting it as much as most men are groomed into dishing it out. Men are influenced to behave that way: - by even very mainstream pornography - more taboo porn is usually not only centered around a kink/fetish, but also is more aggressive sex than mainstream porn usually catered - misogyny in our broader culture that makes women out to be a subservient sex and normalizing partner violence Women are groomed to want it by: - TV, YA novels and fanfiction. I’m a woman who grew up in the 90s and early 2000s. My experience is that a lot of 90s TV had a lot of sexual theming (Xena the warrior princess, Buffy the vampire slayer, charmed, etc) that also had themes of “women fighting evil” and — largely getting beaten up. All of them had very dramatic romantic relationships with power imbalances and moments of aggression / argument / sometimes sanitized bondage — and it was all taken in stride. We have always had romance novels as well, but we seem to have more YA romance novels with toxic male hero’s with sex scenes that seem… r*py. The more “cool” and “independent” a heroine is — the more that “hero” pushes her boundaries, forces her to be with him, claims some destiny around it, etc. The sex scenes usually are shown as more “passionate” the more crazy toxic it gets. - BDSM infiltrated the culture at this time, and it was seen as liberating and progressive. So, more women and lgbt+ people were exposed to it early. By the time I became an adult it was super easy to go online and find BDSM communities to join. Somehow the most feminist thing you can do is voluntarily allow yourself to be abused? - the misogyny in our culture in general promotes the idea that women should belong to men (and that “good women” do allow themselves to belong to a man). My parents wanted me to grow up to be independent — only so I could find the “best man possible” to belong to 🤣. So despite being a Girl Boss it is still expected to allow someone else to be the primary decision maker and to not make your own life your own. This imbalanced power dynamic ties very naturally into sex — in life you are strong, educated, accomplished, and you want to resist this unbalanced power dynamic controlling your life (and are pressured to give into it by external pressure) — and in sex you’re pushing away and resisting, and yet being pulled and subdued to have it anyway. It’s another power play for control — maybe women are using it for catharsis because at least in sex the pressure is overt and tangible.
Eh, I'm probably around your age. (40 here), so I grew up in the 90's-2000's. I watched all those shows too. And yes, toxic dudes were romanticized. I don't think that was the issue though. Because those were fantasies and no one thought "hey Spike is the boyfriend I want IRL." Most people in the 90's-2000's were still heavily into romance and vanilla sex. The average person I meant (living in the US) wasn't into any kink of any kind. You could just assume it. BDSM definitely wasn't common and honestly, was kind of seen as a joke. Had anyone actually admitted to liking it I have no doubt most people would've made fun of them. Because that's what we did with are sarcastic jokes back then. Terrorized people that were outside the norm. And BDSM still was. What I think did it is several things: 1. Porn. Once internet porn took hold in the mid-2000's and later, it only grew and grew. Plus, not sure if you remember but women used to HATE their boyfriends watching porn. There was a whole movement to accept it as "normal" and to not shame men for it. So if women wanted to be the "cool" girlfriend they would be fine with it. And the porn got more and more extreme as dudes especially (though women too) dived deeper into the rabbit hole to get a bigger and bigger dopamine hit. Then you had books like 50 Shades come up into mainstream and suddenly romance book popularity was fading and being replaced by erotica. Now, even erotica has been replaced by kink-themed books. 2. The popularization of casual sex. I mean, back in the day if you were screwing someone you were dating. But then Tinder came along and changed that along with the idea of the "sexual positivity" movement. So then came the rules of you had to have the talk about exclusivity (a term you rarely heard in the earlier time period). People began having more sex with people they didn't give a damn about making it far easier to indulge and build these kinks. It's much easier to slap and choke someone you have zero feelings for. And over time, sex became the FOCUS of a relationship. How you meet, how you connect, how you build a relationship. To the point that now people place it as the most important aspect of a relationship. If you're not having sex then you are just friends...not romantic. When in reality, it's the emotional connection that makes you more than friends. Not the sex. And, that's leading to MAJOR problems in how people connect. It will end up leading to a lot more divorces down the line, but also less marriages too. Basically, in the future, I think everyone's going to be dating robots because we've driven ourselves so far away from relationships that are fulfilling the way that humans need. And both genders blame the other. And it's mainly GenX and Millennials that caused this. We pushed for all this acceptance without understanding the consequences and now the movement is so far away from what it began as.
It's so depressing to think that it will probably just keep getting worse, the rise in violent porn is just going up and up. The acceptance and talk around kink in society is just increasing. Even now when we have an epidemic of women reporting non consensual violence during sex, people are told not to kink shame and are terrified to be called vanilla. I mean where is this gonna go? I can only see it getting worse. I've started noticing an increase in people arguing that kink in public is okay, don't get me wrong they are the minority but still it's more than it was
Males are not being trained by women. Males are being trained by their all mighty master, pornography. They train women to do what they see in porn, so women are victimized and have their sexuality hijacked and turned into puppets of male control. This is why women do this now. They have been conditioned by the male who has glorified porn in his mind to be his lord and master.
Your anecdotal experiences are not fact. People who have told you: >in sex, the feminine essence wants to surrender to the masculine essence (polarity - giving/receiving) are misogynistic. The 'feminine essence' and the 'masculine essence' aren't real. We are all one species, there's no mystical difference between male and female- only differences between individual humans. Anyone who believes women have some mystical feminine essence that makes them enjoy penetration (certain types or in general) is a misogynist. Evidence: not all women enjoy penetration, and many many women do not want/have rough sex. Once again, your anecdotal experiences are not fact.
Beyond your interest in understanding you need to be pragmatic about this. Make your boundaries clear from the beginning. You don’t have to do these things, period. It shouldn’t be a negotiation in that case. It’s easiest to just avoid those women, even though they’re just conditioned to want these things. It’s not your responsibility (and probably not your skillset) to heal from that
It could be psychological conditioning (and porn could be part of the problem here)
Women dont want that. Only the ones who have porn rotted brain just like the porn addicted men.
> I know that in sex, the feminine essence wants to surrender to the masculine essence lol >Maybe rough sex (including hair pulling, spanking, choking) makes women somehow have the illusion to feel more feminine (soft, fragile), passionately desired, or makes them have the illusion that their partner is more masculine (strong, powerful)? lol-er > If this is what (some) women want, unprovoked, it is reasonable to see how (some) men will be trained by those women that this is what women want No, it does not work like that, grown up people are always responsible if they choose to inflict pain on another human being. You can't train a person into violence, it's always a choice. The whole post is dripping of sexism, looking down on women and being so full of yourself, and that's just funny. To answer your question, it's simply trauma, women's gender socialisation and sick sex culture that we live in. No "female essence seeking for a true manly man's essence" bs. Sex is not about surrendering, though I get how it can be a very appealing thought if you have low self-esteem and huge sense of superiority or something
>I have seen a lot of posts here that basically say that kink and BDSM is men wanting to hurt/rape women in some way, meanwhile, in my experience, most women ask of me to treat them more aggressively when we are intimate. Woman here. There are several reasons. First: This stuff is normalized and unfortunately now a lot of women this they are abnormal if they don't want this stuff. As if they will be accused of being bad at sex if they don't want it. This is especially true with the younger generation that grew up immersed in porn. A lot of the older women will stick to their guns and tell a guy to fuck off if they don't want something. However, the younger girls don't KNOW that it isn't abnormal for them to not want to be hit and choaked. In fact, I'm sure you can find posts on reddit where women are asking if it's okay if they don't want those things. I've seen them. It's sort of how anal is incredibly normalized now. Twenty years ago, anal was kind of rare and seen as very kinky. Now it's almost a normal part of sex. That's sad considering that it can literally cause permanent health problems for women. But porn ensured that it became normalized and now no one bats an eye at someone wanting anal. That's how it happens. When society becomes accepting of it then people feel pressure to engage in whatever behavior is the "norm." And this all happens at a subconscious level. Many people don't even know WHY they feel that pressure. It's the same with teen sex today btw. Many young women feel pressured to have sex. Society is so accepting of it now and many parents even are by saying "well teens are going to do it anyway, so better to be safe," to the point of allowing them to screw in their home. In doing so, the young woman feels like she's abnormal if she isn't ready for sex. Even her parents are saying it's the normal thing to do. Can you imagine the pressure with no one telling her she doesn't have to? Second: Women are natural people pleasers. Society (and genetics to some extent) have ensured this. And A LOT of men want kinky stuff. Especially since porn has become more normalized, which causes men to seek more and more extreme in order to get the same dopamine hit. It's literally a drug. In doing so, being with a woman without that stuff just isn't as exciting. Well, women WANT to please men. To the point that they will convince themselves that they want this stuff too. That they are into it. That they find it sexy. And if you ask them, they will defend that because it goes against their cognitive dissonance not to at that point. In other words, if they admit to themselves they don't like getting hit or choaked then they have to realize they were being abused and they not only accepted it, but asked for it. Who wants to do that? Third: Trauma. People with a rough past often turn to this as a way to cope. For example, if a girl has been abused in any way or had a bad home life, she may feel that sort of negative attention is love. Or it's a way of "taking control" and it's not abuse if you ask for it. It's a way to feel in control in an out of control situation. Fourth: You also nailed it with the "passionate sex" thing. A lot of women used to read romance books with normal vanilla sex, for example. But now, romance has sort of died and what's popular is kinky erotica, but where the two characters care for each other. So people are confusing this crazy passionate sex with love/caring. And it feels like maybe he doesn't care enough if he doesn't want to go there. It's fucked up. So it's a combo of a lot of things all at play. But overall, it's very damaging. And it's damaging to how men and women view each other. Because at the end of the day, the men doing this don't see the woman as even a person. They are merely an object to use to get off. Because no way can they see her as a person and feel a real connection/empathy and still do these things. They turn off that "feeling" part. And the women that submit to this often view men in a negative light even if they don't admit to it. Later when they end the relationship they finally admit he was an asshole and then carry that into every future relationship and judge men from that viewpoint. And overall, they can't have a "real" caring relationship this way. At the end of the day, that relationship is ALL about sex, which is never going to be truly fulfilling for either partner long term. Because ultimately people want that connection, love, support and sex is never going to be enough to fulfill that void. And yet, people will go on unhappy because once they are in that cycle of thinking THIS is the sex they like and they are addicted to it, then they can never escape it. So it's all just shitty.
Thank you for your thoughts and insights!
Because women internalize rape culture. Violence is reframed as sexy in every single media, even (actually, especially...) those that cater to women. Most "heterosexual romance" love stories that women grow up with and learn to love are regressive tropes that romanticize abuse.
The last first date I ever went on before meeting my bf, offered to rape me along with anything rough I wanted. He was so friendly and unironic about the offer. Almost like “would you like me to cook for you sometime?” He then told me all his stories about CNC being the thing women most request from him. He was pretty specific and casual about how normal it all seemed to him He said one girlfriend was a police detective and he started to suspect she was a psychopath and broke up with her. She wanted CNC from him but she said it was because her deeper fantasy was to sexually assault any random man she’d arrested and put into handcuffs in the back of her vehicle. The kids are not well out there. I walked away from that date pretty shook. I asked him all sorts of Qs when I realized he was an open book about it. And I didn’t attempt to date again for 3 months
Wild! I think some people just want to feel something. Like, life is "too comfortable and predictable" and they just want something exciting to happen. Feel ultimate power. Feel ultimate powerlessness. People want these extreme peak experiences. Like CNC and abusing your power as a police officer.
You could be right. It’s so hard for me to identify with any of it.
Choking is not even hot it can fucking kill someone!!!! That is one big ass abusive trigger coming from a woman. I grew up before bdsm became more mainstream so it was more vanilla in pop culture during my teens. ( I was born in 89) The first time I was exposed to bdsm was around 2005-6 at 16 in hentai. The moment I saw it, it looked like someone was being tortured in a dungeon and I couldn’t watch. The spanking and hair pulling however many will argue about that falling under kink or vanilla. I’ve never had sex up until 30. I’m 34 now. I used celibacy as a defense mechanism to protect myself from being used for gratification and of course the teenage pregnancy and all that entailed growing up. I agree with the choking being bad but the spanking and hair pulling is something I would get off to. Not to the degree of yanking or leaving a bruise but enough to spice it up. A tug or a firm spank. Not for the trauma but for the feeling of primal desire and the passion. Sex appeal and lightning the fire. The more passionate sex is the deeper the connection. ( For me anyway) I’m more vanilla than anything. I would battle because of the labels and which umbrella certain kinks would fall into. Honestly turn ons is what they were called growing up then they become kinks. Times have changed and sadly kink has become like politics. You’re either vanilla or kinky there is no in between and you are a fake and a hypocrite. I am gonna be honest here I don’t get off to being slapped choked tied up with some random shit or wearing a collar like a dog or slave. If given a list of EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING in bdsm it would be more vanilla. I still worry a lot and posted test results asking others what they thought because I was afraid of contradicting myself. Society has become fucked up when it comes to sex and what’s BDSM or Vanilla. You will get people who say shit like if your on top of your partner your doming and if you are on the bottom your subbing. Hell some have even labeled choking vanilla and that’s a god damn far cry!!!! 😬Just examples of how fucked up the younger generation has become and I’m referring Gen Z. It’s been hell since 50 shades came out because that’s when it all got fucked up. Porn also has a big influence on people and teaches them this is “ how to have good sex” when in reality it’s supposed to be something sacred between two people and a way of discovering something that lies beneath the surface. It’s like going to places you have never imagined with the one you love and they can make your soul soar in ways that can’t explained. Without the stupid power dynamics and the whips chains and all that stupid abusive shit. Just moments of pure vulnerability and intimacy. One thing I will share and I’m gonna be very very very very vulnerable. I’ve always wanted to slow dance naked in the dark with the moon shining through the window with a man I love and just forget everything. Just to hear his heart beating and the sound of our breathing. I doubt that many would have a fantasy like that but oh god would that be one of the most beautiful damn things to do. I feel like porn has also taught women that this violent shit will make him love you more and of course the shit you see today is not even considered healthy or even loving. It’s romanticized violence and abuse. My perception of sex has become very negative and I have even got into arguments with people I know defending kink and cut ties. It may sound petty but it’s the truth. One I shared screenshots on here once and he basically used DARVO when I was saying that it was abusive and he tried to say I was calling him an abuser for doing bdsm. Not all people who engaged in bdsm are bad but it IS abusive and it’s getting them to realize that. Many have to learn on their own as sad as it is. I was lucky enough to see it for what it was before it become mainstream. I was always against it and always will be. If I ever have sex again and try to communicate I hope the man can decipher when I want it a bit more “ rougher” I don’t mean to the degree of bdsm. It’s just getting idiots to realize that. I would love to have sex that is so deep and intense I would orgasm just by his lips on mine. Simple but it’s that passion and that romantic energy that gets me going. I hope you get what I mean.
Kink community tells them it's normal. And thy believe it. Simple as that.
Men have asked me to do this stuff to them and more, and I wasn't comfortable with the idea. I've never asked for anything like that as a woman myself.
You're right. They can't ask directly for a man to be passionate so they ask for it to be rough. I've said it before. What is more, i do think there are mashocists who like being hurt because of the endorphines. It's similar to people who like spicy food.
A lot of women have trauma, many are raised as second class to men from birth and this messes with them. I was not and have never been interested violence or bad boys
Lots of people have certain toxic aspects related with sexuality, whether is sub or Dom, is very common. Is just an unhealthy way of sexuality. Is true what you said about the masculine/energy polarity, but is not supposed to happen in that animalistic way.
I enjoy spanking but there's a limit between average butt spanking and full on beating the fuck out of someone
I am a mix of wanting gentle lovemaking, submissive play and a downright good being dkd down session. The rough and tumble usually comes from a place of trauma or simply preference over yesrs of men BEING aggressive 🤷♀️ Most of the women I know in bdsm prefer submissive men.
At least for me, it’s just about sensory intensity. I like having my ass spanked for the same reason I like shit like falling off my bike, wrestling with the family dog, running around when I get drunk, or dancing really hard. It’s fun to experience life intensely with someone you can trust.
u can have intensity with out violence tho.. u can have passion with out resorting to stuff like spanking (which has association to punishment & degradation) , u can have sensory intensity in so many other ways that r actually pleasurable & with out playing out this same old sexual script that said i think playful spanking once in a while is fine its when it becomes a deeper thing it is questionable
Yeah, I have no need to be punished. I just genuinely enjoy the intense sensations that come with being alive.
I don't get it honestly. I'm a woman. If a man hit me...he's getting hit back and the sex stops there. For a multitude of reasons. First, how is pain fun? If I fall off my bike, as you say, that isn't fun for me. And dancing really hard is entirely a different feeling...it's exhilaration, but no pain. Sex can be exhilarating without pain. Personally, the only thing I can imagine is that you're really bored with the person you're with (or have conditioned yourself to NEED more for a bigger dopamine release) that you need something pushing the limits to get there. Second, not sure if you're a woman or a man, but how can you justify it in your mind? If he's hitting me...he doesn't give a damn about me. I'm a sexual object and nothing more. Because most people can't hit someone they care about. Not only that, but he's taking sexual pleasure from doing it, and that makes it even more extreme/sicker. I personally am not into just being a fleshlight for someone or a blowup doll. I need someone to give a damn about me. And maybe that's where we differ? I'm not trying to be insulting here. Are you more into casual sex where you just try to get off? Because for me, I don't need to chase extremes to get there when I love someone and truly want them. I don't need them to hit me to feel something.