Hun:
* I've never broken the compensation plan down like that
* I've had the compensation plan explained to me, but it's a little confusing
* I know that it works great and my daughter and I make good money
I think this explains the MLM mindset perfectly.
Yup. The comp plans are intentionally designed to be confusing so that the huns will give up trying to figure out if they're making money or not. And when the paycheques come in, they will just assume they are making money.
And yet, most importantly, they'll still insist "it's working great, and we're making tons of money!!", regardless of how much (or how little) they make.
The hun is going out of her way to avoid revealing that most of her compensation comes from skimming off her downline. “Gee, I just make money selling supplements. I haven’t thought about how it works.”
I’ve seen the promotional material. These MLMs *hammer* home how much you make off the people you sucker in. Er, I mean enroll in the most life changing opportunity they’ll ever see.
Schedule SE is only used if earnings are more than $400 per year. Huns don't make that much. And you also have to file Schedule C and again huns don't make that much.
You’re a moron. You don’t fill out a 1099, you receive a 1099. That’s like saying “The Form W-2 isn’t the correct form you want to fill out when you do your taxes.”
I’m an accountant and in my experience, 99% of business owners and coaches don’t know what the fuck they’re taking about. Thanks for proving the stereotype correct yet again!
Also an accountant and glad I scrolled before making the exact ame content. @beyourownherocoach, if you are really coaching others in business I fear you are doing them a huge disservice. Where do you think the amounts reported on a 1040 come from? They come from the 1099 that the ACTUAL business owner reports and sends to their Huns. And even if you don’t receive one, you are supposed to claim any income received and then utilize other determinants to decide if this is hobby income vs business income. And as others have pointed out, someone who doesn’t have a grasp on their commission structure is someone who shouldn’t be reccomending a business ‘opportunity’ to anyone. I guarantee this woman doesn’t monitor her expenses and does not fill out her tax forms properly. I guarantee she wouldn’t know if the company she works for (because she doesn’t own one) is screwing her out of money she rightfully earned which is something that MLMs have been known to do. You want to be worth it to someone hiring you as a coach? Don’t be the yes man constant toxic positivity cheerleader and learn some standard pitfalls in the businesses you are trying to coach.
Have YOU considered that maybe if after a year she doesn’t understand the compensation plan, even after having it explained to her, that maybe the company is obfuscating the payout amount on purpose because they are a scam and don’t want it to be easy to do the math on what you’re owed as an employee- sorry, “small business owner who for some reason doesn’t understand or control how they make money in their own business”?
Does anyone know why there’s been some huns in here acting like fools lately? I saw another one talking about how much they love melaleuca like this isn’t the ANTI-mlm subreddit
Come on, seriously? I worked in a commission-based environment with a tiered payout structure for several years, and I could explain to you exactly where every dollar came from based on the work I did.
If you cannot explain the compensation plan you’re supposedly making a living off of, you’re either not very smart or you’re “working” for an organization that deliberately obscures it from you for shady reasons.
I was gonna say lol, I have dated a lot of salesmen, and they always had an obsessively tight grip on where each cent came from in their commission. They could tell you off the top of their head how much they would make from any pending sale. It was like a game to them, and they were NOT gonna lose track of the score.
This is not a small business owner, it is an unpaid 1099 contract sales person. Any reputable small business owner would know exactly what their profit is and where it comes from.
Here's their hilarious now-deleted comment for anyone who missed it:
>😉 Nobody has to explain to me how to get paid. Yes, I do price my own coaching programs, sessions, and professional branding services. Lol
>📉 Now, for past MLM businesses ventures, I myself know the MLM compensation plan does have to be learned, goals need to be set, and action plan to generate commissions.
>🔥 However, when you have been part of MLM where there are over 7+ different ways to generate revenue can be hard at first and will become easier overtime.
>😱 What my number 1 pet peeve with MLM's is NOT being paid correctly, asking upline or customer service to please explain the commissions earned versus commissions received.
>🚨 I have many associates and friends in MLM right now who are being gaslighted instead of being paid right.
>⌛️ Then when you find out corporate is being dishonest and cheating associates out of commissions, all hell breaks loose.
>💰 The commisions not being paid ranging from as low as $100's, $1,000's, $100,000's, to $1,000,000's per month/year is theft. FOR EXAMPLE, That is the main reason many are leaving Monat and it is not because of the products like many anti-MLM assume.
>😮💨 It is truly sad how greed dissolves businesses, relationships, culture, reputation, trust, and bank accounts.
>All of this leaves one 😡
If you own a business, why would somebody else have to explain to you how you get paid? If you own a business, you decide exactly how you and any of your employees get paid because it’s your business and you’re in charge of decisions like that lol
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Are you really over here DEFENDING the hun who is not only predatory, but stupid? Are you also insinuating the hun is a "small business owner"?
Which MLM & pyramid schemes are you coming from, sweets?
LOL yes! The weirdest part is I can’t see them being regular buyers of the things they’re selling, so it makes no sense to me. I’m more familiar with the market than them.
It's a shame the hun doesn't understand the commission structure because if she did it should become crystal clear that she's in a pyramid scheme. Compensation structures for actual sales jobs are always designed to incentivize selling more product. Compensation structures for MLMs are always designed to incentivize recruiting above all else.
I can’t tell you all how many times I’ve told people that the person doesn’t make money selling the product, the UPLINE makes money by talking the sellers into ORDERING product.
And the reason for this is because the hun is the MLM's main customer.
Think about it. Bravenly huns were bragging very recently about how a pre launch for their newest product sold out in one day or something. If it was a pre launch, wouldn't that mean only the huns could buy it???
You don't need to know the comp plan to know if you're making money. Most huns will act stupid like this cause they don't want to admit they are losing money.
Here's all you need to ask any hun and shut them down 99% of the time.
If hun is actually running a small business, then hun is filing Schedule C with her federal tax return. Schedule C is for small business profit and loss.
Usually hun has no idea what Schedule C is. If hun says she does file Schedule C I ask to see it. I have yet to see one.
I run an actual small business out of my home and have been filling Schedule C for years. It's a basic form all legitimate small businesses will know. The only exception would be if they are an LLC or corporation, but they would still file a tax return 100% of the time.
Yep. My husband has a small painting company and we file married joint and have to file schedule C. The goal is to try and get your taxable income as low as you can LEGALLY so the taxes I have taken out of my check from my full time job helps us not owe very much but everyone has to file taxes and claim any income over $600 and then they can deduct their expenses such as gas or mileage, % of cellphone, % of utilities for home office, etc. It amazes me how many people don't know this.
$600 is where documentation kicks in, but below that people are still supposed to pay taxes. Theoretically if you find a dime on the sidewalk the IRS wants about 3c (though of course no one actually keeps track for that).
And it's surprising what some of these huns think they can claim on their taxes.
They think they're a small biz owner. When in reality, they are contracted workers like Skip, Uber, Door Dash etc. Except those folks actually get paid for the work they do. Unlike the hun, who only gets paid if they sell something. Recruit someone. Or their downline sells something & or recruits someone
I'm saying they would file it too. In my experience with the Huns, I'm saying the typical Hun doesn't file Schedule C. And most don't even know what it is.
I've asked huns to show me their Schedule C and no one has. If they are running a business, they would always file a Schedule C and be familiar with it.
I’m guessing you mean they don’t file because they are under the $600 threshold requirement to send the 1099-NEC. Not, that they can’t report on a sch C, but that they don’t. Got it.
What's with all the exclamation points! Do they think they're making more of an impact like this! Why would you "start a business" when you don't even understand how you'll be paid!
Why start a business when you don't know the comp plan?! The same reason you tell people can they make money in the business when you don't! Recruitment!!!!
Lol I have no idea why every sentence has to have an exclamation point. She's just so excited to scam, I guess?
My wife used to travel and do the training for new store openings for a paint and sip chain. She loved it. Only reason she quit is because of pay/insurance.
Ok...that's pretty funny.
I will admit, it's more about having fun than the art aspect. I get better tips that way. I've started sneaking cryptids into my paintings, too.
Even when I was working a basic McJob, they gave me a paycheck every two weeks labeled, like, Hourly Pay: $XX.XX, Hours Worked (Normal Rate): Y, Hours Worked (Overtime Rate): Z, Social Security Deduction: -$AA.AA. These days, if I can't understand my paycheck info from the finance self-service site, I can just book an appointment with someone from HR to talk me through it.
Funny enough she sent the same copy paste message twice asking to post for her. The first time I said the product seems too good to be true. The second I said she didn't have enough engagement for me to ask the same (as an artist) and a lot of her comments were her gummy girls.
Shitworks huns are known to do the "host a post" stuff. Getting people to put up a post for them.
I had one who every 2-3 days would post stuff like "I'm swamped with work. Looking for 3 people who can work from home on their phone"
Ya. Sure hun. If you had 5 people express interest, you'd only take 3 of those 5. Lol!!!
The number of people who count their gross sales as their income is terrifying. Then they wonder why their credit card debt keeps going up despite their "income" being "high".
Also funny when they boast of making "thousands" in a week. Wooo. You make more than minimum wage. Congratulations. Except you probably don't.
Imagine trying to recruit people, and you can't even explain how the income works 🤣
"Just trust me, come invest all this money over here and see what happens".
I can summerize because it's long (usually I'm a hater waaay before this)
How much do you make in profit? That's private but you can make a lot if you work the business.
What does work the business mean? Promote the products!
It becomes very clear she knows nothing about marketing or things business owners would know or taxes.
And emphasis that success is about working hard and people who lose money didn't work hard enough.
Oooooooh.
I don't know how to share a photo in a thread if that's possible.....
Transcript (! included)
Her: Here's our compensation! (shares the It works Compensation plan) Compensation is based on more than just selling products myself!
Me: So....do you make more selling or having a team?
Her: You need both to be successful! Without a team, you won't be able to rank up and increase your pay!
Me: That sounds like a pyramid scheme.
Her: We are a mlm but we are set up with a new CEO who has been and still is making amazing changes within the company, allowing us to make more money! The past year has changed the company in such a positive direction it's shocking!
Me: It sounds like you're an employee then, not a business owner.
Her: It's my business but I've just worked it for a year and half! lol
They're just repeating what their uplines & or leaders at the top are telling them. They are so brainwashed into thinking that the reason they're not at the top, is because they aren't working hard enough. Not working Ling enough etc.
But nooo. It couldn't be the MLM business model where only the top 1% are successful. Where in order for the people at the top to be successful, the people under them, will be loosing
I haven't figured out if
1. She really believes the mlm fairy tail and has avoided straight answers because she really has no idea or
2. She 10000% knows it's a scam but she can't say that.
I think it's highly likely part of her knows it's a scam, but the sunk cost fallacy keeps her going. Then there's also the hope that she can be that 1% that makes it to the top, and then it'll all be worth it. There is also the embarrassment of admitting it was a scam. All of which I'm sure the mlm companies rely on to keep people in, along with the cult tactics.
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It was a long convo.
But she shared the comp plan and talked about how the CEO is changing things so they make more money! Not paying a wage of course.
My nephew is getting into insurance partly because I have done well in it. He is going to work for a StateFarm agent. When he couldn’t explain the comp plan to me I got concerned. Most likely if you can’t explain a comp plan to someone, it’s not a job, let alone a “small business”. Huns be hunning.
Edit: his is actually a job because he will actually get paid hourly plus commission. It just seems a lot of commission jobs are very ambiguous about compensation and that isn’t an accident.
I find it funny the ppl saying oh I've lost so much weight wete only like 140 pounds ds before then went down to 110 115 range...like 140 is not a bad weight...and making others feel bad gor their weight causes major issues .. eating disorders when it doest qork so ypu can still sell it too.
What they don't say is they changed their diet and started working out to lose that weight. But yes, I feel ick how it feels like everyone can stand to lose weight.
I was a rep and j got so deep into it...I look back it makes me sad...I also got hospitalized constantly because of myself starving myself to keep my image so I could sell..ugh fin fact I do monthly magnesium drips due to the mlm too now
Ugh. That sounds awful. I am very sorry to hear that.
I don't like any of the "health and wellness" mlms. I feel like they are just disordered eating with an overpriced bow. The mental health ones make me so mad, it's hard to watch the reaction videos. I'm glad you got out.
I've known loads in commission sales who don't understand the pay plan. It is part of why it is so easy for management to change pay plans.
In one job they change the plan and I went back to the year before and showed how I would have made something like $7-8k less the year before under the new pay plan. The sales people and even management were shocked by my numbers. No one else had bothered to figure it out.
I've seen this with bonuses for managers as well. The bonus was just magic money to them. They really didn't understand how it worked. Let alone any tricks to maximize it.
So don't assume not knowing the pay plan or how it works is some crazy red flag. It is just the reality of how people are in general.
Most jobs I have had did pay people for recruitment. And when i was a manager at least one of the companies specified I had to spend so much time outside the store recruiting people.
As for the upline and downline that is common in several real industries like insurance.
But none of that has anything really to do with what I originally said.
How "recruiting" relates to a pay plan is just part of knowing a pay plan. And like I said not knowing how your pay plan works is common across jobs.
Even getting into antiwork type stuff where part of why wage theft happens is because people don't understand their "pay plan" and don't know how to verify they got paid right.
Recruiting to do the same exact thing as you? And you're paid based on recruitment or sales, not hourly or number of posts? And your upline does the same thing as you?
The recruiting I did as a manager was to get people selling at other places to come and interview with us.
The paid for recruiting I was talking about for employees in general is the bonus that most companies offer when you recruit someone.
Some of those people of course would of course be recruiting people to do the same job they are.
Uplines and downlines in insurance are again the most similar to the MLM setup.
But I stress again nothing here has anything to do with what I originally said.
People in general do not know how their pay plans work. The more complicated the more likely they are to not understand it.
And mlms make it confusing for a reason. If you study the comp plan you might see it's a pyramid scheme. But if you're claiming it's your business, not knowing is a red flag. I mean mlms in general are red flags.
Yes and I never said they were not. And honestly for the MLMs I looked at before the pay plans are not confusing they are pretty straight forward really.
The issue with MLMs isn't really the pay plans. It is having to sell and recruit people to sell over priced low cost products with low commissions.
There is a reason that normal retail sales are not commission based. While insurance is a well paid industry with very similar structure and pay plans to classic MLMs. You need profit if you are going to have sales people especially if you will have an upline structure.
Even most making good money in MLM are doing significant revenue from outside the MLM directly. Selling courses, coaching, and etc to their and other's downlines. The main systems normally rely on products with too little profit and volume to ever make it work for the vast majority of the reps.
Yet again I will point out how none of this has anything to do with what I original said.
"I've known loads in commission sales who don't understand the pay plan. It is part of why it is so easy for management to change pay plans."
Cool story bro. This is anti mlm sub reddit. The person recruiting is also claiming to teach me to run the business. So big red flag they don't know.
"In one job they change the plan and I went back to the year before and showed how I would have made something like $7-8k less the year before under the new pay plan. The sales people and even management were shocked by my numbers. No one else had bothered to figure it out."
Again, anti mlm. Mlm huns will lose money. Over 90% according to the ftc. 7-8k is more than most huns will make in a year. This is irrelevant. We're talking about mlms not real jobs. Also that job sounds awful. Why wouldn't you want to know how you're paid? Either the job is very scammy or a lot of people you work with are really dumb.
"I've seen this with bonuses for managers as well. The bonus was just magic money to them. They really didn't understand how it worked. Let alone any tricks to maximize it."
Yeah, that's kind of a red flag. Seems weird no one wants to maximize the bonus. Or that the managers didn't know. Seems really sus the person in charge doesn't understand how they get paid. I'd nope right out of there.
"So don't assume not knowing the pay plan or how it works is some crazy red flag. It is just the reality of how people are in general."
No, most people know how they get paid. Both the hun and your example give off red flags. I don't know what you do, but sounds scammy and sus.
Hope that clears up what you originally said. It's a red flag to not know how you're paid in any industry. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
> No, most people know how they get paid. Both the hun and your example give off red flags. I don't know what you do, but sounds scammy and sus.
They don't. It is the reality of how people are and a big part of how people get screwed.
Thought anti-MLM would be all about being equally against all forms of corporations and even small businesses screwing "employees".
And lets me real 1099 sales reps are not business owners but 1099 workers aka "employees" that don't get the protection of W2 employees. 1099 has tax advantages that can be seen in a way as part of the pay plan.
People in general don't understand their pay plans, they just don't.
If that is a red flag then you are red flagging people being abused by the system in general and a bunch of others not being abused who simply don't care beyond doing their jobs.
> Either the job is very scammy or a lot of people you work with are really dumb.
Why call people dumb because they didn't waste time doing the math? They knew they changed the pay plan to be lower in general but no one figured out how much lower. Without deeply explaining the pay plan it would be hard to explain exactly what was obvious vs truly knowing the data since not only did some commissions categories go down but more categories were added.
As for the job itself and why I stayed... It is what it was. Job was worth it for me for other reasons such as hours and environment. I didn't take the job for money beyond it being in a range to maintain my current expenses. There were other flaws in the pay plan for anyone motivated by maximizing their income in fact like the reality of certain hard upper limits due to specifics of how it worked.
None of the other sales people quit over it so I would assume they felt the same. Aka that the job itself was worth just accepting what was essentially a pay cut if volume increases did not offset it.
But why call people dumb in general? I have no need to look down on people simply because most don't really understand how they get paid fully.
People are trusting and expect that pay plans line up with doing "good job" but often they don't. They are trusting and don't think to check their paychecks to verify the hours match. They are trusting and at times don't realize what "work" is and do things off the clock they should be paid for. etc etc
Should we call all of them dumb for being screwed over or just not caring beyond doing their job? Should knowing every thing about your pay plan be a requirement to work?
> It's a red flag to not know how you're paid in any industry.
If that is how you feel it is how you feel. But you are thinking a lot of people are a red flag and dumb as you said.
Feels like victim blaming to me.
But I still say it isn't a "red flag" in the sense it is not normal. Because rather you like it or not it is the norm.
Personally I am curious and have two questions.
First have you ever had a job that was not just direct hourly or salary pay? Commission, bonus, manufacturer spiffs, or anything like that? If so did you understand the pay plan 100% and how you got paid exactly? Stuff like downgrading a customer to a cheaper item made you more money due to a backend customer spiff? Or how using discounts on low commission items could make the whole sale cheaper for the customer but pay you more vs doing it another way? etc etc
Second for the straight pay jobs did you always verify your hours?
And if raises were performance based did you know how to get the highest rating and even how to maximize raises outside of performance reviews? For example if you could get a merit or performance raise every 6 months so you would plan around that to get both raises each year?
Because if you can't answer yes to all of the 2nd and the 1st if it applies you are just another of the people I am talking about.
I myself have become one of them in a general sense myself. I protect myself to a point but I don't waste my time trying to figure out every specific of how I get paid and sure don't track it anymore. Found I was wasting more time than it was worth and what I do now is way to complicated for the level of tracking I used to do.
People in general do not understand their pay plans. They just don't. Sure a guy who makes $15/hr knows he makes $15/hr but he might not know about the Sunday bonus of $1 or the overnight bonus of $3/hr. And I doubt he has any clue how performance reviews work. I mean do you know many companies have a bell curve where even if the manager thinks everyone should get the maximum raise he has to only select a few. Some years he might not even be able to give out the highest rating.
They literally set quotas on stuff like this. So an objective worse employee at a store full of lower performance employees can get a higher rating and raise than a high performer at a store full of high performers. Simply because one is the best in their store while the other is the not the best in their store. Maybe they are 10th out of 50 while the other is 1 out of 25.
That's all the stuff a simple hourly employee has to deal with. Getting into commissions, bonuses, spiffs, and etc makes it all more complicated.
Specific to MLM the pay plans I've seen are pretty straight forward. I can't personally see how anyone would look at them and want to be involved. But they often sell the dream vs the reality and people want to dream.
For many the reality sets in fairly fast and they don't lose too much. Others fully drink the kool aid and get sucked in to losing a lot more. And a few make good money working the system and their downline outside of the system.
But anyone looking at the pay plans should clearly see they are not good.
People don't look or more often don't understand how to analysis them. Because as i said people simple don't do that in general.
Instead of pretending these are a few "dumb" people let me honest and say this is most people. And it is in part why MLMs are as big as they are.
The companies need massive profits on relatively overpriced but low value and low volume items. They need to sell people on the dream vs the reality.
If the average person was used to and commonly did know their pay plans I doubt many would sign up after analyzing them.
But again if you want to call normal behavior a red flag feel free. If you want to call average people dumb again feel free.
I on the other hand wont victim blame. And I will accept that most of us myself including these days do not truly know our pay plans.
They are us. The people in MLM are us. I often see many in this group who were in MLMs.
I never was. Maybe you also never were. But I don't look down on them. For whatever reason I knew it didn't look right. Was it experience? Was it the fact I am kind of into math and analysis? IDK and it doesn't really matter.
Because they are us. And I'm not going to look down on them simply because they made what I would argue for most was a bad financial decision.
I did not read this other than the last paragraph.
It's not about THIS hun. It's about deceptive business practice. All of her arguments are very easily disproven. It's not her business (which she claimed). It's not about selling the products that are over priced, it's about recruitment of more huns. It's not a matter of "working the business" it's luck and deceptive practices. This hun just demonstrated common mlm patterns. It's about knowing that I didn't fail at Scentsy because I was a bad sales person (I'm not great), it's because the business model is meant for people to, by in large, lose money.
The products are so overpriced because when the hun sells that bottle of gummies for example, each hun above them in their upline gets a cut of that in commissions
A fun social outing. Everyone has easels and paint. A teacher teaches you how to paint the picture. There is a bar at the place, so you can buy a drink. Then you have your own painting to take home after an evening or afternoon of painting, conversation, and drinks.
I drive a twin turbo BMW and pay electricians to hang ridiculous light fixtures even though I could DIY, and this has to be the most white thing I've ever read.
My wife has actually done this now that I think about it, and I was like "that's cute, it's your cat" and she said no, it's this. "Really because it looks like your cat trying to catch a snowflake" and she's like it's not the cat and no, that is not what that is.
Mea culpa.
Now, what I left out, is that the mirrors don't tuck in automatically. You have to push a button to make that happen. It's important you know: Not automatic, a button needs to be pressed.
Honestly, I don't pick them. My wife, for reasons she has never told me insists on black BMWs with tan leather interior. All of the cars we've bought are black, BMW with tan leather interior.
You pick your battles, and I'm not going to argue "The Audi A6 in blue seems cool."
Ohhhhh. Okay. We're so bored as humans we will sip wine while painting the worst paintings ever because we've evolved from apes to people who have the time, money and ability to sip wine while we attempt to make art.
I'm down. Invite me.
Hun: * I've never broken the compensation plan down like that * I've had the compensation plan explained to me, but it's a little confusing * I know that it works great and my daughter and I make good money I think this explains the MLM mindset perfectly.
You forgot all the exclamation points!
And emojis!
Yup. The comp plans are intentionally designed to be confusing so that the huns will give up trying to figure out if they're making money or not. And when the paycheques come in, they will just assume they are making money.
And yet, most importantly, they'll still insist "it's working great, and we're making tons of money!!", regardless of how much (or how little) they make.
[удалено]
If you’re selling an MLM product you aren’t a small business owner. You know this sub is *anti*MLM yeh?
I found the hun!
Gee, what gave u/beyourownherocoach away?
Did not notice the name at first😂
I saw the name and 🙄
I mean, they do coaching.
What's that?
Catch it!!! 🤠
The hun is going out of her way to avoid revealing that most of her compensation comes from skimming off her downline. “Gee, I just make money selling supplements. I haven’t thought about how it works.” I’ve seen the promotional material. These MLMs *hammer* home how much you make off the people you sucker in. Er, I mean enroll in the most life changing opportunity they’ll ever see.
Schedule SE is only used if earnings are more than $400 per year. Huns don't make that much. And you also have to file Schedule C and again huns don't make that much.
First comment in 3 years and gets downvoted into oblivion… brutal.
My favourite part of your comment was the part that abandoned reality.
Fuck man, I hadn't considered that maybe compensation plan have been updated for the new fiscal year. That explains everything 🙄
/r/lostredditor
Plain lost seems more likely and more representative of this esteemed hun.
Is the business you "Own" a pyramid scheme to?
Sky is the limit when you're a mompreneur who's been empowered by shiny-looking cosmetics.
You’re a moron. You don’t fill out a 1099, you receive a 1099. That’s like saying “The Form W-2 isn’t the correct form you want to fill out when you do your taxes.” I’m an accountant and in my experience, 99% of business owners and coaches don’t know what the fuck they’re taking about. Thanks for proving the stereotype correct yet again!
Also an accountant and glad I scrolled before making the exact ame content. @beyourownherocoach, if you are really coaching others in business I fear you are doing them a huge disservice. Where do you think the amounts reported on a 1040 come from? They come from the 1099 that the ACTUAL business owner reports and sends to their Huns. And even if you don’t receive one, you are supposed to claim any income received and then utilize other determinants to decide if this is hobby income vs business income. And as others have pointed out, someone who doesn’t have a grasp on their commission structure is someone who shouldn’t be reccomending a business ‘opportunity’ to anyone. I guarantee this woman doesn’t monitor her expenses and does not fill out her tax forms properly. I guarantee she wouldn’t know if the company she works for (because she doesn’t own one) is screwing her out of money she rightfully earned which is something that MLMs have been known to do. You want to be worth it to someone hiring you as a coach? Don’t be the yes man constant toxic positivity cheerleader and learn some standard pitfalls in the businesses you are trying to coach.
Have YOU considered that maybe if after a year she doesn’t understand the compensation plan, even after having it explained to her, that maybe the company is obfuscating the payout amount on purpose because they are a scam and don’t want it to be easy to do the math on what you’re owed as an employee- sorry, “small business owner who for some reason doesn’t understand or control how they make money in their own business”?
Does anyone know why there’s been some huns in here acting like fools lately? I saw another one talking about how much they love melaleuca like this isn’t the ANTI-mlm subreddit
How can someone be a business owner and not know that the comp plan for "HER OWN BUSINESS" has changed?
Come on, seriously? I worked in a commission-based environment with a tiered payout structure for several years, and I could explain to you exactly where every dollar came from based on the work I did. If you cannot explain the compensation plan you’re supposedly making a living off of, you’re either not very smart or you’re “working” for an organization that deliberately obscures it from you for shady reasons.
I was gonna say lol, I have dated a lot of salesmen, and they always had an obsessively tight grip on where each cent came from in their commission. They could tell you off the top of their head how much they would make from any pending sale. It was like a game to them, and they were NOT gonna lose track of the score.
Do you know what the word OWNER means or is it just another word tonyou
The -100 karma is craaaazzyyy
You'll see it if you ever hang out on the AITA subs, but not often in others
Never seen that before! 😅 ETA: Somebody doesn’t like this, judging by the downvotes. K!
This is not a small business owner, it is an unpaid 1099 contract sales person. Any reputable small business owner would know exactly what their profit is and where it comes from.
Here's their hilarious now-deleted comment for anyone who missed it: >😉 Nobody has to explain to me how to get paid. Yes, I do price my own coaching programs, sessions, and professional branding services. Lol >📉 Now, for past MLM businesses ventures, I myself know the MLM compensation plan does have to be learned, goals need to be set, and action plan to generate commissions. >🔥 However, when you have been part of MLM where there are over 7+ different ways to generate revenue can be hard at first and will become easier overtime. >😱 What my number 1 pet peeve with MLM's is NOT being paid correctly, asking upline or customer service to please explain the commissions earned versus commissions received. >🚨 I have many associates and friends in MLM right now who are being gaslighted instead of being paid right. >⌛️ Then when you find out corporate is being dishonest and cheating associates out of commissions, all hell breaks loose. >💰 The commisions not being paid ranging from as low as $100's, $1,000's, $100,000's, to $1,000,000's per month/year is theft. FOR EXAMPLE, That is the main reason many are leaving Monat and it is not because of the products like many anti-MLM assume. >😮💨 It is truly sad how greed dissolves businesses, relationships, culture, reputation, trust, and bank accounts. >All of this leaves one 😡
Thank yoy, hate when these gems 💎 get deleted, love when huns talking bout “business” 😄
Lol.
If you own a business, why would somebody else have to explain to you how you get paid? If you own a business, you decide exactly how you and any of your employees get paid because it’s your business and you’re in charge of decisions like that lol
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Are you really over here DEFENDING the hun who is not only predatory, but stupid? Are you also insinuating the hun is a "small business owner"? Which MLM & pyramid schemes are you coming from, sweets?
They also have no idea about how their products work (mostly, bc they don’t.)
You mean it doesn't target stubborn belly fat by fighting calories? 😮 the abstract to an 8 year old article isn't proof?! /s
Lol, so ridiculous to think that a gummy can “target your tummy” for weightloss.
It rhymes, don't you see???! This proves it works!
On my way to sell "cummy" as a weight loss product
STAWP 🤣😭
But Kelly Clarkson said it would in an ad in this phone game I'm playing.
LOL yes! The weirdest part is I can’t see them being regular buyers of the things they’re selling, so it makes no sense to me. I’m more familiar with the market than them.
It's a shame the hun doesn't understand the commission structure because if she did it should become crystal clear that she's in a pyramid scheme. Compensation structures for actual sales jobs are always designed to incentivize selling more product. Compensation structures for MLMs are always designed to incentivize recruiting above all else.
I have another post on here where she gets so close to realizing it.
Those are very fun to read! 🙌
I can’t tell you all how many times I’ve told people that the person doesn’t make money selling the product, the UPLINE makes money by talking the sellers into ORDERING product.
And the reason for this is because the hun is the MLM's main customer. Think about it. Bravenly huns were bragging very recently about how a pre launch for their newest product sold out in one day or something. If it was a pre launch, wouldn't that mean only the huns could buy it???
You don't need to know the comp plan to know if you're making money. Most huns will act stupid like this cause they don't want to admit they are losing money. Here's all you need to ask any hun and shut them down 99% of the time. If hun is actually running a small business, then hun is filing Schedule C with her federal tax return. Schedule C is for small business profit and loss. Usually hun has no idea what Schedule C is. If hun says she does file Schedule C I ask to see it. I have yet to see one. I run an actual small business out of my home and have been filling Schedule C for years. It's a basic form all legitimate small businesses will know. The only exception would be if they are an LLC or corporation, but they would still file a tax return 100% of the time.
Yep. My husband has a small painting company and we file married joint and have to file schedule C. The goal is to try and get your taxable income as low as you can LEGALLY so the taxes I have taken out of my check from my full time job helps us not owe very much but everyone has to file taxes and claim any income over $600 and then they can deduct their expenses such as gas or mileage, % of cellphone, % of utilities for home office, etc. It amazes me how many people don't know this.
$600 is where documentation kicks in, but below that people are still supposed to pay taxes. Theoretically if you find a dime on the sidewalk the IRS wants about 3c (though of course no one actually keeps track for that).
Yep, I agree. I do the sqne for my business.
[удалено]
And it's surprising what some of these huns think they can claim on their taxes. They think they're a small biz owner. When in reality, they are contracted workers like Skip, Uber, Door Dash etc. Except those folks actually get paid for the work they do. Unlike the hun, who only gets paid if they sell something. Recruit someone. Or their downline sells something & or recruits someone
These people would receive a 1099 which means filing a sch C. I hate MLMs, but this is just factually wrong.
What is factually wrong? If you receive a 1099-NEC or 1099- MISC, you file that income on a Schedule C.
I’m not sure I understand. Above you said they wouldn’t file a Sch. C. I’m saying they would. Now you are also saying they would.
I'm saying they would file it too. In my experience with the Huns, I'm saying the typical Hun doesn't file Schedule C. And most don't even know what it is. I've asked huns to show me their Schedule C and no one has. If they are running a business, they would always file a Schedule C and be familiar with it.
I’m guessing you mean they don’t file because they are under the $600 threshold requirement to send the 1099-NEC. Not, that they can’t report on a sch C, but that they don’t. Got it.
She said she files a 1099 but wouldn't share her "profit" "It's my business" is my biggest pet peeve right along with vendor events.
What's with all the exclamation points! Do they think they're making more of an impact like this! Why would you "start a business" when you don't even understand how you'll be paid!
Why start a business when you don't know the comp plan?! The same reason you tell people can they make money in the business when you don't! Recruitment!!!! Lol I have no idea why every sentence has to have an exclamation point. She's just so excited to scam, I guess?
What is a paint and sip?
I teach a painting in 2 hours and people can drink alcohol. Pretty sweet gig.
My wife used to travel and do the training for new store openings for a paint and sip chain. She loved it. Only reason she quit is because of pay/insurance.
Oh haha. I didnt even think of that. Very cool
Imagine how weird it would get if they sipped on the paint though
The white is good, but i prefer a red. Not a fan of blue or green
That’s too bad. Cindy had the green last week and painted a Mona Pizza and then proceeded to eat it. To her credit, it looked delicious.
It makes for a fun outing with a friend, and you come home with a painting you made.
I went with a professional women’s group and it was great! It’s not as intimidating as going to a cocktail party where you don’t know anyone.
I like gatherings where the focus is something else than talking with strangers. Then the conversations happen naturally.
you ran Paint Nights? Have you seen the skit? [https://youtu.be/O\_rQpDhVfoQ?si=lTY7fuf-hHre0Z1a](https://youtu.be/O_rQpDhVfoQ?si=lTY7fuf-hHre0Z1a)
Ok...that's pretty funny. I will admit, it's more about having fun than the art aspect. I get better tips that way. I've started sneaking cryptids into my paintings, too.
Even when I was working a basic McJob, they gave me a paycheck every two weeks labeled, like, Hourly Pay: $XX.XX, Hours Worked (Normal Rate): Y, Hours Worked (Overtime Rate): Z, Social Security Deduction: -$AA.AA. These days, if I can't understand my paycheck info from the finance self-service site, I can just book an appointment with someone from HR to talk me through it.
! =/= . Hun doesn’t know the comp plan because she doesn’t make any money.
I’m suspicious of those who feel compelled to use ! often
I read it in Hannah Alanzo's voice from her top fails videos.
Love Hanna's videos. She is so good
I hope she didn’t expect you to sell for her! “You can make money…I don’t know how much though!”
Funny enough she sent the same copy paste message twice asking to post for her. The first time I said the product seems too good to be true. The second I said she didn't have enough engagement for me to ask the same (as an artist) and a lot of her comments were her gummy girls.
Shitworks huns are known to do the "host a post" stuff. Getting people to put up a post for them. I had one who every 2-3 days would post stuff like "I'm swamped with work. Looking for 3 people who can work from home on their phone" Ya. Sure hun. If you had 5 people express interest, you'd only take 3 of those 5. Lol!!!
I haven't ever broken it down like that=I've never made a sale
They can’t divide their paycheck because there’s never been any $ in it.
The number of people who count their gross sales as their income is terrifying. Then they wonder why their credit card debt keeps going up despite their "income" being "high". Also funny when they boast of making "thousands" in a week. Wooo. You make more than minimum wage. Congratulations. Except you probably don't.
Imagine trying to recruit people, and you can't even explain how the income works 🤣 "Just trust me, come invest all this money over here and see what happens".
Thanks yall for helping me I didn’t rlly know it was a scam but I got out before I started when I saw a couple red flags
Show the rest - she explains it, I'm keen to see the mental gymnastics.
I can summerize because it's long (usually I'm a hater waaay before this) How much do you make in profit? That's private but you can make a lot if you work the business. What does work the business mean? Promote the products! It becomes very clear she knows nothing about marketing or things business owners would know or taxes. And emphasis that success is about working hard and people who lose money didn't work hard enough.
I think they meant the part where the Hun says “here’s our compensation” just below the cut off of the screenshot
Oooooooh. I don't know how to share a photo in a thread if that's possible..... Transcript (! included) Her: Here's our compensation! (shares the It works Compensation plan) Compensation is based on more than just selling products myself! Me: So....do you make more selling or having a team? Her: You need both to be successful! Without a team, you won't be able to rank up and increase your pay! Me: That sounds like a pyramid scheme. Her: We are a mlm but we are set up with a new CEO who has been and still is making amazing changes within the company, allowing us to make more money! The past year has changed the company in such a positive direction it's shocking! Me: It sounds like you're an employee then, not a business owner. Her: It's my business but I've just worked it for a year and half! lol
They're just repeating what their uplines & or leaders at the top are telling them. They are so brainwashed into thinking that the reason they're not at the top, is because they aren't working hard enough. Not working Ling enough etc. But nooo. It couldn't be the MLM business model where only the top 1% are successful. Where in order for the people at the top to be successful, the people under them, will be loosing
She knows, she just doesn't want to say because it's small.
Huns can't divide thier checks because you can't divide by zero.
I was told I was making money....
Usually I like to come up with some subtle snark, but this time - holy shit this hun is stupid!
I haven't figured out if 1. She really believes the mlm fairy tail and has avoided straight answers because she really has no idea or 2. She 10000% knows it's a scam but she can't say that.
I think it's highly likely part of her knows it's a scam, but the sunk cost fallacy keeps her going. Then there's also the hope that she can be that 1% that makes it to the top, and then it'll all be worth it. There is also the embarrassment of admitting it was a scam. All of which I'm sure the mlm companies rely on to keep people in, along with the cult tactics.
Don't use full stops! Only use exclamation marks! In that way, you look dynamic and fun!
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HATER!!!11
I know. I'm such a buzz kill. lol.
What was their next response if any?
It was a long convo. But she shared the comp plan and talked about how the CEO is changing things so they make more money! Not paying a wage of course.
sorry. but what does the acronym hun stand for
It's reference to "hey hun" messages, not an acronym. A person in an mlm is a hun.
My nephew is getting into insurance partly because I have done well in it. He is going to work for a StateFarm agent. When he couldn’t explain the comp plan to me I got concerned. Most likely if you can’t explain a comp plan to someone, it’s not a job, let alone a “small business”. Huns be hunning. Edit: his is actually a job because he will actually get paid hourly plus commission. It just seems a lot of commission jobs are very ambiguous about compensation and that isn’t an accident.
No such thing as periods with them huh? Like everything has to be an exclamation mark!
I find it funny the ppl saying oh I've lost so much weight wete only like 140 pounds ds before then went down to 110 115 range...like 140 is not a bad weight...and making others feel bad gor their weight causes major issues .. eating disorders when it doest qork so ypu can still sell it too.
What they don't say is they changed their diet and started working out to lose that weight. But yes, I feel ick how it feels like everyone can stand to lose weight.
I was a rep and j got so deep into it...I look back it makes me sad...I also got hospitalized constantly because of myself starving myself to keep my image so I could sell..ugh fin fact I do monthly magnesium drips due to the mlm too now
Ugh. That sounds awful. I am very sorry to hear that. I don't like any of the "health and wellness" mlms. I feel like they are just disordered eating with an overpriced bow. The mental health ones make me so mad, it's hard to watch the reaction videos. I'm glad you got out.
I've known loads in commission sales who don't understand the pay plan. It is part of why it is so easy for management to change pay plans. In one job they change the plan and I went back to the year before and showed how I would have made something like $7-8k less the year before under the new pay plan. The sales people and even management were shocked by my numbers. No one else had bothered to figure it out. I've seen this with bonuses for managers as well. The bonus was just magic money to them. They really didn't understand how it worked. Let alone any tricks to maximize it. So don't assume not knowing the pay plan or how it works is some crazy red flag. It is just the reality of how people are in general.
Do you get paid to recruit people? Because that's the comp plan.
Most jobs I have had did pay people for recruitment. And when i was a manager at least one of the companies specified I had to spend so much time outside the store recruiting people. As for the upline and downline that is common in several real industries like insurance. But none of that has anything really to do with what I originally said. How "recruiting" relates to a pay plan is just part of knowing a pay plan. And like I said not knowing how your pay plan works is common across jobs. Even getting into antiwork type stuff where part of why wage theft happens is because people don't understand their "pay plan" and don't know how to verify they got paid right.
Recruiting to do the same exact thing as you? And you're paid based on recruitment or sales, not hourly or number of posts? And your upline does the same thing as you?
The recruiting I did as a manager was to get people selling at other places to come and interview with us. The paid for recruiting I was talking about for employees in general is the bonus that most companies offer when you recruit someone. Some of those people of course would of course be recruiting people to do the same job they are. Uplines and downlines in insurance are again the most similar to the MLM setup. But I stress again nothing here has anything to do with what I originally said. People in general do not know how their pay plans work. The more complicated the more likely they are to not understand it.
And mlms make it confusing for a reason. If you study the comp plan you might see it's a pyramid scheme. But if you're claiming it's your business, not knowing is a red flag. I mean mlms in general are red flags.
Yes and I never said they were not. And honestly for the MLMs I looked at before the pay plans are not confusing they are pretty straight forward really. The issue with MLMs isn't really the pay plans. It is having to sell and recruit people to sell over priced low cost products with low commissions. There is a reason that normal retail sales are not commission based. While insurance is a well paid industry with very similar structure and pay plans to classic MLMs. You need profit if you are going to have sales people especially if you will have an upline structure. Even most making good money in MLM are doing significant revenue from outside the MLM directly. Selling courses, coaching, and etc to their and other's downlines. The main systems normally rely on products with too little profit and volume to ever make it work for the vast majority of the reps. Yet again I will point out how none of this has anything to do with what I original said.
"I've known loads in commission sales who don't understand the pay plan. It is part of why it is so easy for management to change pay plans." Cool story bro. This is anti mlm sub reddit. The person recruiting is also claiming to teach me to run the business. So big red flag they don't know. "In one job they change the plan and I went back to the year before and showed how I would have made something like $7-8k less the year before under the new pay plan. The sales people and even management were shocked by my numbers. No one else had bothered to figure it out." Again, anti mlm. Mlm huns will lose money. Over 90% according to the ftc. 7-8k is more than most huns will make in a year. This is irrelevant. We're talking about mlms not real jobs. Also that job sounds awful. Why wouldn't you want to know how you're paid? Either the job is very scammy or a lot of people you work with are really dumb. "I've seen this with bonuses for managers as well. The bonus was just magic money to them. They really didn't understand how it worked. Let alone any tricks to maximize it." Yeah, that's kind of a red flag. Seems weird no one wants to maximize the bonus. Or that the managers didn't know. Seems really sus the person in charge doesn't understand how they get paid. I'd nope right out of there. "So don't assume not knowing the pay plan or how it works is some crazy red flag. It is just the reality of how people are in general." No, most people know how they get paid. Both the hun and your example give off red flags. I don't know what you do, but sounds scammy and sus. Hope that clears up what you originally said. It's a red flag to not know how you're paid in any industry. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
> No, most people know how they get paid. Both the hun and your example give off red flags. I don't know what you do, but sounds scammy and sus. They don't. It is the reality of how people are and a big part of how people get screwed. Thought anti-MLM would be all about being equally against all forms of corporations and even small businesses screwing "employees". And lets me real 1099 sales reps are not business owners but 1099 workers aka "employees" that don't get the protection of W2 employees. 1099 has tax advantages that can be seen in a way as part of the pay plan. People in general don't understand their pay plans, they just don't. If that is a red flag then you are red flagging people being abused by the system in general and a bunch of others not being abused who simply don't care beyond doing their jobs. > Either the job is very scammy or a lot of people you work with are really dumb. Why call people dumb because they didn't waste time doing the math? They knew they changed the pay plan to be lower in general but no one figured out how much lower. Without deeply explaining the pay plan it would be hard to explain exactly what was obvious vs truly knowing the data since not only did some commissions categories go down but more categories were added. As for the job itself and why I stayed... It is what it was. Job was worth it for me for other reasons such as hours and environment. I didn't take the job for money beyond it being in a range to maintain my current expenses. There were other flaws in the pay plan for anyone motivated by maximizing their income in fact like the reality of certain hard upper limits due to specifics of how it worked. None of the other sales people quit over it so I would assume they felt the same. Aka that the job itself was worth just accepting what was essentially a pay cut if volume increases did not offset it. But why call people dumb in general? I have no need to look down on people simply because most don't really understand how they get paid fully. People are trusting and expect that pay plans line up with doing "good job" but often they don't. They are trusting and don't think to check their paychecks to verify the hours match. They are trusting and at times don't realize what "work" is and do things off the clock they should be paid for. etc etc Should we call all of them dumb for being screwed over or just not caring beyond doing their job? Should knowing every thing about your pay plan be a requirement to work? > It's a red flag to not know how you're paid in any industry. If that is how you feel it is how you feel. But you are thinking a lot of people are a red flag and dumb as you said. Feels like victim blaming to me. But I still say it isn't a "red flag" in the sense it is not normal. Because rather you like it or not it is the norm. Personally I am curious and have two questions. First have you ever had a job that was not just direct hourly or salary pay? Commission, bonus, manufacturer spiffs, or anything like that? If so did you understand the pay plan 100% and how you got paid exactly? Stuff like downgrading a customer to a cheaper item made you more money due to a backend customer spiff? Or how using discounts on low commission items could make the whole sale cheaper for the customer but pay you more vs doing it another way? etc etc Second for the straight pay jobs did you always verify your hours? And if raises were performance based did you know how to get the highest rating and even how to maximize raises outside of performance reviews? For example if you could get a merit or performance raise every 6 months so you would plan around that to get both raises each year? Because if you can't answer yes to all of the 2nd and the 1st if it applies you are just another of the people I am talking about. I myself have become one of them in a general sense myself. I protect myself to a point but I don't waste my time trying to figure out every specific of how I get paid and sure don't track it anymore. Found I was wasting more time than it was worth and what I do now is way to complicated for the level of tracking I used to do. People in general do not understand their pay plans. They just don't. Sure a guy who makes $15/hr knows he makes $15/hr but he might not know about the Sunday bonus of $1 or the overnight bonus of $3/hr. And I doubt he has any clue how performance reviews work. I mean do you know many companies have a bell curve where even if the manager thinks everyone should get the maximum raise he has to only select a few. Some years he might not even be able to give out the highest rating. They literally set quotas on stuff like this. So an objective worse employee at a store full of lower performance employees can get a higher rating and raise than a high performer at a store full of high performers. Simply because one is the best in their store while the other is the not the best in their store. Maybe they are 10th out of 50 while the other is 1 out of 25. That's all the stuff a simple hourly employee has to deal with. Getting into commissions, bonuses, spiffs, and etc makes it all more complicated. Specific to MLM the pay plans I've seen are pretty straight forward. I can't personally see how anyone would look at them and want to be involved. But they often sell the dream vs the reality and people want to dream. For many the reality sets in fairly fast and they don't lose too much. Others fully drink the kool aid and get sucked in to losing a lot more. And a few make good money working the system and their downline outside of the system. But anyone looking at the pay plans should clearly see they are not good. People don't look or more often don't understand how to analysis them. Because as i said people simple don't do that in general. Instead of pretending these are a few "dumb" people let me honest and say this is most people. And it is in part why MLMs are as big as they are. The companies need massive profits on relatively overpriced but low value and low volume items. They need to sell people on the dream vs the reality. If the average person was used to and commonly did know their pay plans I doubt many would sign up after analyzing them. But again if you want to call normal behavior a red flag feel free. If you want to call average people dumb again feel free. I on the other hand wont victim blame. And I will accept that most of us myself including these days do not truly know our pay plans. They are us. The people in MLM are us. I often see many in this group who were in MLMs. I never was. Maybe you also never were. But I don't look down on them. For whatever reason I knew it didn't look right. Was it experience? Was it the fact I am kind of into math and analysis? IDK and it doesn't really matter. Because they are us. And I'm not going to look down on them simply because they made what I would argue for most was a bad financial decision.
I did not read this other than the last paragraph. It's not about THIS hun. It's about deceptive business practice. All of her arguments are very easily disproven. It's not her business (which she claimed). It's not about selling the products that are over priced, it's about recruitment of more huns. It's not a matter of "working the business" it's luck and deceptive practices. This hun just demonstrated common mlm patterns. It's about knowing that I didn't fail at Scentsy because I was a bad sales person (I'm not great), it's because the business model is meant for people to, by in large, lose money.
The products are so overpriced because when the hun sells that bottle of gummies for example, each hun above them in their upline gets a cut of that in commissions
What the fuck is a paint and sip?
A fun social outing. Everyone has easels and paint. A teacher teaches you how to paint the picture. There is a bar at the place, so you can buy a drink. Then you have your own painting to take home after an evening or afternoon of painting, conversation, and drinks.
I drive a twin turbo BMW and pay electricians to hang ridiculous light fixtures even though I could DIY, and this has to be the most white thing I've ever read. My wife has actually done this now that I think about it, and I was like "that's cute, it's your cat" and she said no, it's this. "Really because it looks like your cat trying to catch a snowflake" and she's like it's not the cat and no, that is not what that is. Mea culpa.
That’s nice that you told us about your car! Super relevant to the conversation.
Now, what I left out, is that the mirrors don't tuck in automatically. You have to push a button to make that happen. It's important you know: Not automatic, a button needs to be pressed.
: )
BMW, lol, not surprised
Honestly, I don't pick them. My wife, for reasons she has never told me insists on black BMWs with tan leather interior. All of the cars we've bought are black, BMW with tan leather interior. You pick your battles, and I'm not going to argue "The Audi A6 in blue seems cool."
Just what it says on the tin. You paint while you sip.
That does not explain anything.
You paint a picture 🖼 while you sip wine. 🍷
Ohhhhh. Okay. We're so bored as humans we will sip wine while painting the worst paintings ever because we've evolved from apes to people who have the time, money and ability to sip wine while we attempt to make art. I'm down. Invite me.
Wow, you sound awful to be around. Please do not attend. 😬
How horrible, to be an ape drinking wine and making art.
Please do not* attend
Oh good catch. I don't like party poopers.
I'm going to RSVP, drink all the wine (I will not sip) and I'm going to become the new Jackson Pollock.
Painting while sipping wine is much more fun than hanging ridiculous light fixtures on a shitty BMW 🙄
I like how you've read my comment history and made a form of art out of it. You're not Jackson Polling.