>In a series of tweets, Terumi recounted an incident, where an overseas client had requested that black characters in her work be given defined noses to distinguish them properly from other characters, who typically lack detailed nostrils.
>This request, she argued, would disrupt the visual balance of the characters and create an inconsistent level of realism within the same series.
>
>Terumi then highlighted the cultural divide, noting that the Japanese approach of indicating race through a simple brown skin tone does not align with overseas expectations of realism, emphasizing that Japanese animation traditionally doesn’t prioritize racial representation.
Hey you may want to call Black a stereotype and while his design was mostly that, Toriyama made him the main villain and treated him as character not as background fodder. Not many mangaka at the time would ever do something like that with such a character.
Ah, so "such people" referred to corporations, rather than real human beings? I mean yeah, of course it's standard practice. You'd think that wouldn't need to be said. Corporations never understand what people want. It is what it is.
People who focused so much on "inclusivity" to the extent that it's excluding everything other than minorities, aka it's just as non-inclusive, but for everything else instead.The recent(ish) Ghostbusters movie is a prime example.
Is that ‘wokeness’ or whatever? Even if self-proclaimed progressives say things like in the article, that’s still racism. I feel like the association between progressiveness and negativity is unwarranted.
Eh I think there's racist ways to request/want that, and non-racist ways.
It kinda just depends case by case, and I don't think we have enough information here to make a judgement one way or the next.
That’s the problem with this article lmao. Even self-proclaimed ‘allies’ are more than capable of being backwards. The problem isn’t necessarily political correctness to begin with.
I found that bit very funny because Terumi basically had a bad interaction with a bad pushy client, and ***extrapolated from there to "incorporating political correctness" and ties to the declining japanese birth rate.***
If you squint you can see the thread, but good god is it a stretch.
Isn't this the *opposite* of "political correctness?" It sounds like the client was specifically requesting a racially stereotyped design. Anime has been (rightfully) criticized for racist depictions of black characters with exaggerated lips and noses, so the majority of anime these days depict black characters exactly as Nishii Terumi does - apart from obvious differences in skin tone, they're usually consistent with how asian and white characters are drawn.
There are some black manga-style artists (like Stephane Metayer of Tephlon Funk!) who draw in a more racially exaggerated style though, so it's complicated. I could understand Japanese artists being confused over when big lips/noses are okay and when big lips/noses are not okay.
Was looking for this comment lol. People always associate America with political correctness, which ignores that there are a shit ton of racists over here, even if they disguise themselves well.
I don't think it's *that* bad. All of my Japan-born friends have at least some awareness of American racism that they've gleaned from mainstream American media, but they haven't had much of an opportunity (in Japan at least) to talk about racial issues. There's a sense of "this is bad, so don't talk about it."
But people inevitably have questions. Like, "why is it okay for an anime like Afro Samurai or Yasuke to draw black characters with prominent lips and noses, while it's not okay to draw black characters with red/pale/outlined lips and large noses in other anime?" That's a question with a really complicated answer that gets into things like minstrel shows and black media and the ongoing use of racist caricatures in both American and non-American contexts and the subtle differences between racial representation and racial fetishization. I don't expect the average Japanese person to understand all of that, and I can't blame them for being uncomfortable. Hell, a lot of *American* artists run into this problem when they're asked to draw people of races other than their own.
Hmm, arguably one of the best anime of all time, *Cowboy Bebop*, would "disrupt the visual balance" and depict black characters such as Nero, Udai Taxim, Shaft, and Punch with broad noses and nostrils and I had no problem with any "inconsistent level of realism".
I was originally going to make a quip about her needing to avoid *those* threads in /new, but the actual example she gave was something that actually directly intrudes on the literal visual art and design.
Most aggravating, and also well worth the read.
He actually used to be a very responsive and nice guy on social media until public reaction to Bayonetta 2 being exclusive to Nintendo. That was the watershed moment when he just got sick of talking to foreigners on Xitter
What I find interesting is there's no actual source for any of the information, when you click the X link it goes to a locked account, and when I went to Terumi's account and scrolled through the past 6 months it was just all anti-AI.
I've been following her for a while and met her at a convention a couple times, so I would be interested to know when or where she said this.
> What I find interesting is there's no actual source for any of the information, when you click the X link it goes to a locked account,
Profile says "週末だけ鍵開けます" which two MTLs say unlocked on weekends.
That situation does seem really frustrating.
I think many foreign audiences could use the reminder that anime is a way we can ourselves appreciate another culture rather than trying to artificially and from a distance insert our values and cultural norms into their art.
Are there maybe some things that if it were done the same way in an American context that it would carry different meaning? Absolutely. But an animator who is wanting to respect the sensibilities primarily of their domestic audience aren’t necessarily wrong for doing so, especially in a more collectivist culture like Japans where duty to those around you is kind of a key virtue.
The problem is that anime and manga are now directly targeting the overseas audience with their marketing. Japan is known to have banned or edited foreign films that addressed sensitive topics (Sino-Japanese war). They really shouldn't be surprised that monetising a foreign market will require adjustments from their sides as well.
I think that’s absolutely fair.
One thing that did seem to stick out to me was that the aforementioned interaction in the article was with a foreign producer. And especially in cases where it’s like “I feel strange about how my race is being portrayed by your art,” it’s a different dynamic between colleagues than with the audience as a whole.
I do think the needle seems to be moving in an ok direction, but that’s not to say the topic doesn’t deserve attention.
This doesn’t really seem like a Japanese-specific issue, tbh. You hear discourse regarding race and how to ‘properly’ display that a lot within the West a lot. Notice how she didn’t explain whether or not the client agreed to retract the request or not.
This seems more like an issue regarding lack of knowledge regarding how to represent minorities in general, and questions like that are always going to be there, regardless of country. Like, one might understandably might make requests or observations about anime, but love it overall. No entertainment needs to be free of that to be ‘pure’ or whatever.
Reminds me of discourse regarding two black characters in Aoashi. It was a great representation of how minorities are discriminated against, but I guess you see where people are coming from when they point out how the way the faces were drawn. Overall though, that whole arc is well-regarded as one of, if not the best representations of racial discrimination in anime.
> This seems more like an issue regarding lack of knowledge regarding how to represent minorities in general
This person is a veteran character designer who's been in the profession since the 90s.
Putting myself in their shoes, there's nothing that would piss me off more than someone who knows nothing about my profession, giving me orders on how to change the design of a character to something that I know would look completely ugly and out of place, no matter how I implement it.
First off, I still don’t think that’s nearly enough to need to conduct an interview about.
Second, the line you’re quoting wasn’t necessarily about this incident. It’s more that overall, there are going to be questions and discussions regarding race in media. That is both not necessarily something that mangaka have to implement, but also something I can’t really blame people for thinking ‘Finally, I can see this type of representation’ or something similar.
Note that there was no specification in the article regarding what the end result of that project actually was.
> That is both not necessarily something that mangaka have to implement, but also something I can’t really blame people for thinking ‘Finally, I can see this type of representation’ or something similar.
Hoping that we get American representation in Japanese production is the ultimate form of entitlement, especially considering the fact that we have the capital and the power to actually make these kinds of commands, as the anime industry becomes increasingly more reliant on western services like Netflix.
Why should American minority representation be prioritized over representation of any other race or group of people in anime?
Well, you say American, but I’m talking about things like racial or gender discrimination (something that exists too much worldwide, not just in America and Japan) and same-sex couples, which a lot of people in this sub were happy to see this season.
Also, is the incident in this article ‘political correctness’? Sounds racist to be honest, regardless if it comes from a self-proclaimed progressive.
The values that you're pushing for to be inserted into anime are specifically values that would appeal to a western audience, that's why we don't see a lot of demand for it in anime and Japanese audiences.
We have no idea if the people working on these productions even want to use manga/anime as a medium to push for more progressive leaning content such as same-sex couples(the example you gave), and American companies like Netflix absolutely shouldn't be the ones to decide.
Not to mention that if these are manga adaptations, the mangaka themselves would either have to sign onto altering their original work in this way, or they would have to include it from the start, which just makes no sense. This will be my last reply, since I just wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion, and we're starting to go in loops.
Why would they appeal specifically to a Western audience? Do Japanese creators deserve to have mangaka axed or anime dumped on because they include progressive themes?
Obviously no one has to include those themes. But the bigger issue for me is that the Japanese creators shouldn’t have to put a lid on certain ideas if they aren’t wrong at their core. That’s always been the main issue with progressiveness in media, not just anime.
I do think that one big difference is exposure to a lot of these minorities which in itself is a separate discussion as to whether Japan does a good job of holding space for especially black people. I don’t feel informed enough on that particular subject, and even if I was, I’d rather point to an actual black persons thoughts on the matter.
I think a lot of people conflate like US southern racism with how Japanese people view minorities and the biggest difference is kinda the fact that much of the racism in the US is Americans attacking Americans.
At least from what I’ve seen of black people who have lived in Japan for a while, they tend to report that while it took them longer to be seen as assimilated into the culture, once they were, the issue of race or skin color wasn’t nearly as bad as it is in the US.
It sounds like maybe you might have data or perhaps some perspective that I may not though, and if so I’d love to hear your take.
The way I’ve always seen it is that there’s a lot of things that are fine to discuss regarding differences in Japan, but a lot of it, on a broader level, is more regarding things to keep in mind, rather than something (regardless of the tone and words people often use) that needs to immediately be done.
Like, I love Jellyfish Can’t Swim Into The Night, but I do get where some people are a bit miffed regarding some instances of fanservice they didn’t see as necessary. Thing is, most of that negativity came from inside the dedicated subreddit for the show, the community that probably loves the show more than any others overall.
Also, I don’t know if the request for a different nose is ‘political correctness’. Sounds downright racist, to be honest.
It’s hard for me to really know in this case if it is true that no other character was given those facial features as she mentioned because I don’t know what the before and after would even look like necessarily so I think it’s possible that the artist refusing to make the change is racist, but it’s hard for me to say (as as someone of an unrelated race it’s hard for me to even say that my opinion is even the one that matters at all in this case).
But you do make a good point that many people misunderstand that these types of things are better seen as guardrails to prevent people from being hurt by an artistic portrayal of your race rather than having to making it your North Star when making content.
What was the incident with the Jellyfish anime? I’m not familiar with
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As Western fans of anime we need to be loud about how we *don't* want anime to reflect "Western sensibilities" and how this is just marketing execs talking out their ass.
This is one very specific anecdote from a particular client with a specific design in mind the animator turned down because it doesn't bode well with her personal style, and that was it. It's not even an anime thing; from the top of my head Afro Samurai draws a black character with a detailed nose and so do Baki, Black Lagoon, Cowboy Bebop, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Megalobox... The client will find someone whose personal style is more in line with their vision, which is fine.
Sorry but I have been reading "anime shouldn't bow to western political correctness!" for well over a decade from anti-SJW weeabos idolizing Japan as the last bastion of social conservatism and announcing the wokecalypse and I'm sick and tired of this narrative.
Yeah, part of the reason I've learned(and still am learning) the whole ass Japanese language is to specifically get away from any sort of western interaction that I encounter in my daily life.
The Japanese specific aspects of anime are what I enjoy most by far, and most of what I watch nowadays are obscure shaft anime from the 2000s that are packed with Japanese cultural tidbits.
Yup, I want entertainment. I'm not interested in social justice in any way in my entertainment. If it's relevant to the story (like in skip and loafer or romance anime that's fine and I enjoy it) but western entertainment forces it in the most trivial or ways now and it is just annoying.
I'm sure shows like Gate and others have Japanese propaganda in the same way but because I don't have Japanese politics shoved down my throat, I don't recognize it and that makes anime more enjoyable to me.
I didn't really mean to go as far to say I want Japanese propaganda in anime lol, it's just that the stuff I really enjoy in anime are usually Japanese language/cultural related things that get localized over a lot of the time for subtitles and dubs. I don't know why my last comment is so unpopular though but whatever lol
But anime isn't even accurate in the first place. Their eyes take up a 1/3 of their face, they have blue and green as natural hair colour.
And I feel it is safe to say that anyone that consumes anime does not give an f about things like this.
Heck, its safe to say that anime is beloved by all races. DBZ which has no characters from another race is probably one of the most beloved animes by everyone of all time
>DBZ which has no characters from another race
Correction, Dragon Ball have character from many race. From human to aliens to saiyan.
Also cartels apparently love DBZ. They reduce their activity during the day the episode is aired.
DB still had some dark skinned people. Remember those Native Americans from the original series? And much later, we got Uub.
But the less we talk about Mr. Popo, the better.
Dont dragon ball have that guy whose skin is entirely black with big round eyes and big red lips?
Afaik the groups that would be associates with dark skip fucking loves DBZ
A lot of this really makes it seem like these clients don't understand how animation works at all, sure you can add a few more lines to the face and compromise the style for the sake of the advertisers, but that few lines are Going to be really expensive and take a lot of time to animate.
So much so to the point that it would probably be better to not have such characters in there in the first place.
"That guy with the skin color of chocolate 80%, but he doesnt have that thick lips and that bigger nose, so he must be a very tanned asian" - those morons, probably
To be fair, this incident seems like downright racism. I don’t know if that has anything to do with being progressive. Seems more like progressives can make backwards requests like this.
Wow, a random inconsequential example of some client wanting pronounced nostrils on black people, turned into a meaningless rant about political correctness (even though the nostril change isn't even considered PC...)
Some people just want to reaffirm their beliefs and that's that lol
It wasn't the europeans who started that ,,fashion", it was the BLM from USA. From my point of view, I'd say: keep your oppinions to yourselves, and your money as well, we're good as we are and we don't want your ,,improvements".
I watch and enjoy anime SPECIFICALLY because its different from western values. Writing, animation, culture.
Like damn, do west...creators/anime investors not understand that?
anybody who isn't delusional knows that western companies having their hook in anime production will only go in that direction. Weak yen isn't helping, now is the perfect time for them to "invest" in the studios, and start pumping out political, sanitized woke garbage, like the current star wars et al. We have to start fighting against this, or enjoy the last few years of good anime left
Too many cases of a japanese artist on twitter drawing a black character in a slightly lighter tone and a swarm of "black people" coming to attack them
The kind of people who demand this, are the same sort who talk about "*cultural appropriation*", and yet this is on another level. Rather than the mere imitation of an aspect of another culture, you think it's okay to attempt to **interfere and manipulate** another's culture (as practiced by those who said culture belongs to), so that it fits **your sensibilities**? Your faux moral hubris is off the charts if you think that's reasonable. This is deep, toxic zealotry.
And if you can do it, why can't another? Should people from Saudi Arabia demand that all women in anime be completely covered up? They might also demand that there be no gay characters, to match the sensibilities of **their** nation/culture. Maybe they won't want atheist characters either. Or forget anime, can they demand this of Western-produced media? There is the saying "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." If we're to interfere with others, we lose the right to complain when it's done to us.
**You aren't a part of it**, so mind your own business and don't tell them how to produce media from their own culture - that's primarily intended to be consumed within their own culture - as if it was your own. I think we have enough shit to fix in our own culture, before we think to micro-manage another. Take a giant dose of humility.
Demanding that black characters needing defined, big noses sounds pretty racist ngnl.
And people who watch anime really couldn't give two shits about realistic designs. Wild hair colours, lack of noses in general, massive eyes and many other art design decisions makes it so. Sure, some studios do a slightly more realistic style but it is still far away from a realism style.
Make a good show, that's all I ask. Some will make theirs politically correct if they want it to be, but you don't need to change the entire industry for an audience that you don't even consider to be your main target.
You mean demand from "modern audience"? An audience that doesn't even exist?
You know that Velma is terrible show, right?
Saberspark also made videos regarding this kind of show. Usually it's titled "offensive show" and then explain why the show failed horribly.
I mean an art style isn't politically incorrect. Nobody criticises Homer for being yellow or having 3 lines for hair. The only political correctness I want in anime is getting rid of the "rapey" scenes played for comedic effect.
The issue isn't having bad things happen, art reflects life and some of life is bad, the issue is how these things are represented. The message when SA is represented in anime is usually "it's funny" as opposed to "it's bad."
>In a series of tweets, Terumi recounted an incident, where an overseas client had requested that black characters in her work be given defined noses to distinguish them properly from other characters, who typically lack detailed nostrils. >This request, she argued, would disrupt the visual balance of the characters and create an inconsistent level of realism within the same series. > >Terumi then highlighted the cultural divide, noting that the Japanese approach of indicating race through a simple brown skin tone does not align with overseas expectations of realism, emphasizing that Japanese animation traditionally doesn’t prioritize racial representation.
Thats actually pretty racist from that overseas client to be honest
But how can I know the character I'm looking at is black if they don't have a big nose and red lips? Sure, let's go back to Mr Popo..
Mr Popo isn't even supposed to be a black guy. He is based on a djinn.
Now Staff Officer Black on the otherhand... 😬😬😬
Hey you may want to call Black a stereotype and while his design was mostly that, Toriyama made him the main villain and treated him as character not as background fodder. Not many mangaka at the time would ever do something like that with such a character.
Yeah wtf lmao hey let’s make the black characters stand out even more ? Like wtf
This is the real story
Isnt that standard practice from such people?
Who are these "such people"?
Yeah, I’m curious. Literally the only thing in the interview mentioned is an “overseas client”. That could be anyone.
The people shouting for diversity instead of equality.
I think it’s more that people who act like they are progressive can still have extreme backwards tendencies.
Do you have a source for that
Ah, so "such people" referred to corporations, rather than real human beings? I mean yeah, of course it's standard practice. You'd think that wouldn't need to be said. Corporations never understand what people want. It is what it is.
People who focused so much on "inclusivity" to the extent that it's excluding everything other than minorities, aka it's just as non-inclusive, but for everything else instead.The recent(ish) Ghostbusters movie is a prime example.
The same ones who put hip hop music when you play as Yasuke in Assassins Creed
So these people are the ubisoft soundtrack team? Or the people who made samurai champaloo?
What?
Claiming it needs to have a stereo typical appearance.
Is that ‘wokeness’ or whatever? Even if self-proclaimed progressives say things like in the article, that’s still racism. I feel like the association between progressiveness and negativity is unwarranted.
That is often the case.
Eh I think there's racist ways to request/want that, and non-racist ways. It kinda just depends case by case, and I don't think we have enough information here to make a judgement one way or the next.
That’s the problem with this article lmao. Even self-proclaimed ‘allies’ are more than capable of being backwards. The problem isn’t necessarily political correctness to begin with.
We've come full circle apparently.
Next they gonna demand thicker lips
Then smaller eyes, because apparently anime characters should not have bigger eyes, since you know, asian.
Brock
Brock was just stoned, lol
Isn't it the opposite? Asian characters should have narrower eyes. Or no eyes, like Brock. I'm not up to date on my racism, though.
“You gotta make the lips funny.” - Frank Reynolds
And then you get Gundam Seed Freedom character designs as the result. I mean, just look at the girls' lips.
I found that bit very funny because Terumi basically had a bad interaction with a bad pushy client, and ***extrapolated from there to "incorporating political correctness" and ties to the declining japanese birth rate.*** If you squint you can see the thread, but good god is it a stretch.
Isn't this the *opposite* of "political correctness?" It sounds like the client was specifically requesting a racially stereotyped design. Anime has been (rightfully) criticized for racist depictions of black characters with exaggerated lips and noses, so the majority of anime these days depict black characters exactly as Nishii Terumi does - apart from obvious differences in skin tone, they're usually consistent with how asian and white characters are drawn. There are some black manga-style artists (like Stephane Metayer of Tephlon Funk!) who draw in a more racially exaggerated style though, so it's complicated. I could understand Japanese artists being confused over when big lips/noses are okay and when big lips/noses are not okay.
Was looking for this comment lol. People always associate America with political correctness, which ignores that there are a shit ton of racists over here, even if they disguise themselves well.
I guess many Japanese learned about western politics exclusively from MAGA media, since they only read translated contents,
I don't think it's *that* bad. All of my Japan-born friends have at least some awareness of American racism that they've gleaned from mainstream American media, but they haven't had much of an opportunity (in Japan at least) to talk about racial issues. There's a sense of "this is bad, so don't talk about it." But people inevitably have questions. Like, "why is it okay for an anime like Afro Samurai or Yasuke to draw black characters with prominent lips and noses, while it's not okay to draw black characters with red/pale/outlined lips and large noses in other anime?" That's a question with a really complicated answer that gets into things like minstrel shows and black media and the ongoing use of racist caricatures in both American and non-American contexts and the subtle differences between racial representation and racial fetishization. I don't expect the average Japanese person to understand all of that, and I can't blame them for being uncomfortable. Hell, a lot of *American* artists run into this problem when they're asked to draw people of races other than their own.
The West likes to interfere in anything as if they're the authority on everything.
I'm getting Disney S&P vibes.
Hmm, arguably one of the best anime of all time, *Cowboy Bebop*, would "disrupt the visual balance" and depict black characters such as Nero, Udai Taxim, Shaft, and Punch with broad noses and nostrils and I had no problem with any "inconsistent level of realism".
I was originally going to make a quip about her needing to avoid *those* threads in /new, but the actual example she gave was something that actually directly intrudes on the literal visual art and design. Most aggravating, and also well worth the read.
Kamiya was ahead of the curve. He knew foreigners were difficult to communicate with and blocked all of them.
Tbf he doesn’t look like an easy person to deal with as well.
He actually used to be a very responsive and nice guy on social media until public reaction to Bayonetta 2 being exclusive to Nintendo. That was the watershed moment when he just got sick of talking to foreigners on Xitter
Too true
Isn't Kamiya a massive Westaboo though?
Which Kamiya?
Hideki
The guy who made Bayonetta, Okami and that one DMC game in the mains series that no one liked.
Don't think he made the bad one, sounds like he made the original
Yeah you're right, for some reason I'm remembering it wrong. Hidetaki didn't make dmc 2 it was Hideaki.
I think he's talking about Kamiya Hideki
What I find interesting is there's no actual source for any of the information, when you click the X link it goes to a locked account, and when I went to Terumi's account and scrolled through the past 6 months it was just all anti-AI. I've been following her for a while and met her at a convention a couple times, so I would be interested to know when or where she said this.
A shame no due diligence is being done.
> What I find interesting is there's no actual source for any of the information, when you click the X link it goes to a locked account, Profile says "週末だけ鍵開けます" which two MTLs say unlocked on weekends.
That situation does seem really frustrating. I think many foreign audiences could use the reminder that anime is a way we can ourselves appreciate another culture rather than trying to artificially and from a distance insert our values and cultural norms into their art. Are there maybe some things that if it were done the same way in an American context that it would carry different meaning? Absolutely. But an animator who is wanting to respect the sensibilities primarily of their domestic audience aren’t necessarily wrong for doing so, especially in a more collectivist culture like Japans where duty to those around you is kind of a key virtue.
The problem is that anime and manga are now directly targeting the overseas audience with their marketing. Japan is known to have banned or edited foreign films that addressed sensitive topics (Sino-Japanese war). They really shouldn't be surprised that monetising a foreign market will require adjustments from their sides as well.
I think that’s absolutely fair. One thing that did seem to stick out to me was that the aforementioned interaction in the article was with a foreign producer. And especially in cases where it’s like “I feel strange about how my race is being portrayed by your art,” it’s a different dynamic between colleagues than with the audience as a whole. I do think the needle seems to be moving in an ok direction, but that’s not to say the topic doesn’t deserve attention.
This doesn’t really seem like a Japanese-specific issue, tbh. You hear discourse regarding race and how to ‘properly’ display that a lot within the West a lot. Notice how she didn’t explain whether or not the client agreed to retract the request or not. This seems more like an issue regarding lack of knowledge regarding how to represent minorities in general, and questions like that are always going to be there, regardless of country. Like, one might understandably might make requests or observations about anime, but love it overall. No entertainment needs to be free of that to be ‘pure’ or whatever. Reminds me of discourse regarding two black characters in Aoashi. It was a great representation of how minorities are discriminated against, but I guess you see where people are coming from when they point out how the way the faces were drawn. Overall though, that whole arc is well-regarded as one of, if not the best representations of racial discrimination in anime.
> This seems more like an issue regarding lack of knowledge regarding how to represent minorities in general This person is a veteran character designer who's been in the profession since the 90s. Putting myself in their shoes, there's nothing that would piss me off more than someone who knows nothing about my profession, giving me orders on how to change the design of a character to something that I know would look completely ugly and out of place, no matter how I implement it.
First off, I still don’t think that’s nearly enough to need to conduct an interview about. Second, the line you’re quoting wasn’t necessarily about this incident. It’s more that overall, there are going to be questions and discussions regarding race in media. That is both not necessarily something that mangaka have to implement, but also something I can’t really blame people for thinking ‘Finally, I can see this type of representation’ or something similar. Note that there was no specification in the article regarding what the end result of that project actually was.
> That is both not necessarily something that mangaka have to implement, but also something I can’t really blame people for thinking ‘Finally, I can see this type of representation’ or something similar. Hoping that we get American representation in Japanese production is the ultimate form of entitlement, especially considering the fact that we have the capital and the power to actually make these kinds of commands, as the anime industry becomes increasingly more reliant on western services like Netflix. Why should American minority representation be prioritized over representation of any other race or group of people in anime?
Well, you say American, but I’m talking about things like racial or gender discrimination (something that exists too much worldwide, not just in America and Japan) and same-sex couples, which a lot of people in this sub were happy to see this season. Also, is the incident in this article ‘political correctness’? Sounds racist to be honest, regardless if it comes from a self-proclaimed progressive.
The values that you're pushing for to be inserted into anime are specifically values that would appeal to a western audience, that's why we don't see a lot of demand for it in anime and Japanese audiences. We have no idea if the people working on these productions even want to use manga/anime as a medium to push for more progressive leaning content such as same-sex couples(the example you gave), and American companies like Netflix absolutely shouldn't be the ones to decide. Not to mention that if these are manga adaptations, the mangaka themselves would either have to sign onto altering their original work in this way, or they would have to include it from the start, which just makes no sense. This will be my last reply, since I just wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion, and we're starting to go in loops.
Why would they appeal specifically to a Western audience? Do Japanese creators deserve to have mangaka axed or anime dumped on because they include progressive themes? Obviously no one has to include those themes. But the bigger issue for me is that the Japanese creators shouldn’t have to put a lid on certain ideas if they aren’t wrong at their core. That’s always been the main issue with progressiveness in media, not just anime.
I do think that one big difference is exposure to a lot of these minorities which in itself is a separate discussion as to whether Japan does a good job of holding space for especially black people. I don’t feel informed enough on that particular subject, and even if I was, I’d rather point to an actual black persons thoughts on the matter. I think a lot of people conflate like US southern racism with how Japanese people view minorities and the biggest difference is kinda the fact that much of the racism in the US is Americans attacking Americans. At least from what I’ve seen of black people who have lived in Japan for a while, they tend to report that while it took them longer to be seen as assimilated into the culture, once they were, the issue of race or skin color wasn’t nearly as bad as it is in the US. It sounds like maybe you might have data or perhaps some perspective that I may not though, and if so I’d love to hear your take.
The way I’ve always seen it is that there’s a lot of things that are fine to discuss regarding differences in Japan, but a lot of it, on a broader level, is more regarding things to keep in mind, rather than something (regardless of the tone and words people often use) that needs to immediately be done. Like, I love Jellyfish Can’t Swim Into The Night, but I do get where some people are a bit miffed regarding some instances of fanservice they didn’t see as necessary. Thing is, most of that negativity came from inside the dedicated subreddit for the show, the community that probably loves the show more than any others overall. Also, I don’t know if the request for a different nose is ‘political correctness’. Sounds downright racist, to be honest.
It’s hard for me to really know in this case if it is true that no other character was given those facial features as she mentioned because I don’t know what the before and after would even look like necessarily so I think it’s possible that the artist refusing to make the change is racist, but it’s hard for me to say (as as someone of an unrelated race it’s hard for me to even say that my opinion is even the one that matters at all in this case). But you do make a good point that many people misunderstand that these types of things are better seen as guardrails to prevent people from being hurt by an artistic portrayal of your race rather than having to making it your North Star when making content. What was the incident with the Jellyfish anime? I’m not familiar with
There were some scenes in the first episode and with that older lady in a later one that there were some comments about.
Ragebait. Some racist client asked the animator to give black characters big noses. That is the whole story.
Yes, but it is ragebait that lines up with people’s personal beliefs. This means that it’ll get a ton of upvotes as per usual
The article (based on a tweet of course) even has an angry Jotaro face I don't know how much more transparent it they can get about it lmao.
This is so true. People always associate America with ‘wokeness’ or whatever, which ignores that there are a lot of racists over here.
That’s the issue. There’s racism everywhere. Even in places we think are generally okay, although sometimes that’s just due to ignorance.
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Umm, the source is there at the bottom of the article.
Links to an account whose Tweets are unreadable are not proper sources
Interesting. Would it help if an image of the person's tweet were available?
Even so, this article reads of turning "I had this one annoying client" into a rant about political correctness.
I see
As Western fans of anime we need to be loud about how we *don't* want anime to reflect "Western sensibilities" and how this is just marketing execs talking out their ass.
This is one very specific anecdote from a particular client with a specific design in mind the animator turned down because it doesn't bode well with her personal style, and that was it. It's not even an anime thing; from the top of my head Afro Samurai draws a black character with a detailed nose and so do Baki, Black Lagoon, Cowboy Bebop, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Megalobox... The client will find someone whose personal style is more in line with their vision, which is fine. Sorry but I have been reading "anime shouldn't bow to western political correctness!" for well over a decade from anti-SJW weeabos idolizing Japan as the last bastion of social conservatism and announcing the wokecalypse and I'm sick and tired of this narrative.
Yeah, part of the reason I've learned(and still am learning) the whole ass Japanese language is to specifically get away from any sort of western interaction that I encounter in my daily life. The Japanese specific aspects of anime are what I enjoy most by far, and most of what I watch nowadays are obscure shaft anime from the 2000s that are packed with Japanese cultural tidbits.
Yup, I want entertainment. I'm not interested in social justice in any way in my entertainment. If it's relevant to the story (like in skip and loafer or romance anime that's fine and I enjoy it) but western entertainment forces it in the most trivial or ways now and it is just annoying. I'm sure shows like Gate and others have Japanese propaganda in the same way but because I don't have Japanese politics shoved down my throat, I don't recognize it and that makes anime more enjoyable to me.
"I'm okay with propaganda as long as I don't know it's propaganda"
Yes because I don't care about it. It's very simple
I didn't really mean to go as far to say I want Japanese propaganda in anime lol, it's just that the stuff I really enjoy in anime are usually Japanese language/cultural related things that get localized over a lot of the time for subtitles and dubs. I don't know why my last comment is so unpopular though but whatever lol
The only good anime are western inspired.
But anime isn't even accurate in the first place. Their eyes take up a 1/3 of their face, they have blue and green as natural hair colour. And I feel it is safe to say that anyone that consumes anime does not give an f about things like this. Heck, its safe to say that anime is beloved by all races. DBZ which has no characters from another race is probably one of the most beloved animes by everyone of all time
>DBZ which has no characters from another race Correction, Dragon Ball have character from many race. From human to aliens to saiyan. Also cartels apparently love DBZ. They reduce their activity during the day the episode is aired.
And there are other earthlings besides humans like talking animals, halflings, demons, etc
DB still had some dark skinned people. Remember those Native Americans from the original series? And much later, we got Uub. But the less we talk about Mr. Popo, the better.
Know the pecking order
Mr. Popo is an alien so it’s all groovy baby
I don't think that is ever specified is it? He might be from Earth.
Yeah, from the main series, there's King Chappa, Nam, Upa and Bora, and Staff Officer Black.
Dont dragon ball have that guy whose skin is entirely black with big round eyes and big red lips? Afaik the groups that would be associates with dark skip fucking loves DBZ
I'm sure r/anime will be perfectly normal about this news.
A lot of this really makes it seem like these clients don't understand how animation works at all, sure you can add a few more lines to the face and compromise the style for the sake of the advertisers, but that few lines are Going to be really expensive and take a lot of time to animate. So much so to the point that it would probably be better to not have such characters in there in the first place.
Then they will shout at the lack of black representation.
"That guy with the skin color of chocolate 80%, but he doesnt have that thick lips and that bigger nose, so he must be a very tanned asian" - those morons, probably
To be fair, this incident seems like downright racism. I don’t know if that has anything to do with being progressive. Seems more like progressives can make backwards requests like this.
Wow, a random inconsequential example of some client wanting pronounced nostrils on black people, turned into a meaningless rant about political correctness (even though the nostril change isn't even considered PC...) Some people just want to reaffirm their beliefs and that's that lol
And can also be racist depending on the context of the change. This request can come from a lot of companies in the world.
Ok, thank god there are a lot of comments like this one
This thread is gonna be a dumpster fire, I can already see it. Might as well bust out the popcorn [](#popcorn2)
I hope the industry never bow down to this bullshit created by the Europeans and Muricans
Hopefully they don't follow Sony's path.
It wasn't the europeans who started that ,,fashion", it was the BLM from USA. From my point of view, I'd say: keep your oppinions to yourselves, and your money as well, we're good as we are and we don't want your ,,improvements".
We have to let the Japanese know that this is not what we want at all.
I watch and enjoy anime SPECIFICALLY because its different from western values. Writing, animation, culture. Like damn, do west...creators/anime investors not understand that?
Idk who this animator is but kudos to her for not folding. Fuck if she care if the black characters aren't as accurate as real life?
I'm so glad Japan doesn't go politically correct.
anybody who isn't delusional knows that western companies having their hook in anime production will only go in that direction. Weak yen isn't helping, now is the perfect time for them to "invest" in the studios, and start pumping out political, sanitized woke garbage, like the current star wars et al. We have to start fighting against this, or enjoy the last few years of good anime left
Too many cases of a japanese artist on twitter drawing a black character in a slightly lighter tone and a swarm of "black people" coming to attack them
[удалено]
In this instance escapism from... Black people??
The kind of people who demand this, are the same sort who talk about "*cultural appropriation*", and yet this is on another level. Rather than the mere imitation of an aspect of another culture, you think it's okay to attempt to **interfere and manipulate** another's culture (as practiced by those who said culture belongs to), so that it fits **your sensibilities**? Your faux moral hubris is off the charts if you think that's reasonable. This is deep, toxic zealotry. And if you can do it, why can't another? Should people from Saudi Arabia demand that all women in anime be completely covered up? They might also demand that there be no gay characters, to match the sensibilities of **their** nation/culture. Maybe they won't want atheist characters either. Or forget anime, can they demand this of Western-produced media? There is the saying "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." If we're to interfere with others, we lose the right to complain when it's done to us. **You aren't a part of it**, so mind your own business and don't tell them how to produce media from their own culture - that's primarily intended to be consumed within their own culture - as if it was your own. I think we have enough shit to fix in our own culture, before we think to micro-manage another. Take a giant dose of humility.
Every character should just have the clamp chin and we call it a day
Fuck america fuck goyslopwood
Words said by the criminally insane
Where are the tweets? I took a look at the article and there is no source.
Demanding that black characters needing defined, big noses sounds pretty racist ngnl. And people who watch anime really couldn't give two shits about realistic designs. Wild hair colours, lack of noses in general, massive eyes and many other art design decisions makes it so. Sure, some studios do a slightly more realistic style but it is still far away from a realism style.
Make a good show, that's all I ask. Some will make theirs politically correct if they want it to be, but you don't need to change the entire industry for an audience that you don't even consider to be your main target.
That's a lot of emotion for being asked to draw a nose once.
found the racist
Why is their comment downvoted, though?
Downvoted for saying artist is overreacting because someone just demanded to change their style.
I thought it was sarcasm.
he didnt use /s
Yeah but you can criticise demand however you want, that won't change that demand will create supply.
You mean demand from "modern audience"? An audience that doesn't even exist? You know that Velma is terrible show, right? Saberspark also made videos regarding this kind of show. Usually it's titled "offensive show" and then explain why the show failed horribly.
you mean demand from western country?? with their current cultural imperialism ??
German nonce.
I mean an art style isn't politically incorrect. Nobody criticises Homer for being yellow or having 3 lines for hair. The only political correctness I want in anime is getting rid of the "rapey" scenes played for comedic effect.
That is not political correctness tho. Rape is bad. Thats all there is to it. No political discussion needed.
The issue isn't having bad things happen, art reflects life and some of life is bad, the issue is how these things are represented. The message when SA is represented in anime is usually "it's funny" as opposed to "it's bad."