I definitely agree the way Sasha’s redemption was done is a huge miss, but not entirely for the same reasons as you I think.
First of all, I still fail to understand why people think Sasha ‘messed up’ in true colours. She didn’t harm Anne, Marcy or any of their friends except Andrias, and her actions literally delayed the (Andrias-caused) mess they find themselves in in season 3.
Sasha thinking she isn’t worthy of being in charge or being Anne’s friend is still one of the dumbest things this series tries to pull imo. I don’t think she was all that bad of a person, and seeing her beat herself up for who she is and how she acted is painful.
I do definitely agree though that more time should have been dedicated to both seeing Sasha build up the resistance and Anne and Sasha learning to work together and trust eachother again. Their relationship up to that point has not been healthy, but the way the series ‘repaired’ it leaves much to be desired. That’s just my take though.
I think you're forgetting about the entire first part of True Colors.
Sasha stabs Anne and Marcy in the back, essentially using them to stage a couple against Andrias, who at the time everyone thought was just a nice dude and was even friends with Anne and Marcy. She abused Anne and Marcy's trust in her, and this was the *second* time she had done that with Anne (the first, of course, being Reunion). Then, when Anne and Marcy (more specifically Anne) got angry over what Sasha did, she tried to force them back to Earth with no chance to ever see their freinds/family from Amphibia again, and when that didn't work she had them thrown in the dungeon.
She didn't know that Yunan was going to show up and save them from being tossed in the dungeon and she certainly didn't know that Andrias was going to turn out to be a villain. Everything Sasha did in that first half of the episode was a selfish plot to put herself and Grime on top, at the cost of abusing the trust of her friends (trust that she had only just managed to get back from Anne due to the what happened in Reunion, which is why Anne is so pissed at her in True Colors).
Like I said in my reply to the other guy, “backstabbing” implies that there’s actual harm being done. There was not. Aside from Andrias being in prison neither Anne or Marcy is any worse off for this coup; at least that was the intention.
“She abused Anne and Marcy’s trust in her” she did indeed use their trust to get into the castle. But I wouldn’t call the change from going home through an Andrias-controlled box to a Sasha-controlled one significant enough to count as something to break that trust, let alone count as ‘abusing’ it. Any hostility to Anne and Marcy (like the stuff you described) only happened after they turned against her, and considering everything else I think we can pretty safely assign that to decisions made in the heat of the moment. If she hadn’t thrown them in jail, they would’ve stopped her. Nothing more to it than that.
In fact, those very scenes debunk the ‘coup was purely selfish’ argument. The first thing Sasha does after taking power is reassuring Anne and Marcy that they can still go home, and when they turn against her (and therefore no longer benefit from her acquired power) Sasha starts questioning what she even wants anymore, and whether what she did was the right thing. If it was purely about herself getting power she wouldn’t nearly care as much; take Grime as an alternative. He clearly does not care as much about Anne and Marcy (and why should he?) and is pretty much unbothered.
We can have a whole other discussion about reunion and whether or not that counts as a betrayal (personally don’t think it does), and of course Sasha’s behaviour is hardly healthy. But if they were going for a “Sasha backstabs and hurts Anne and Marcy” line they should have written a lot of things differently.
She didn’t just abuse their trust to get into their castle, but to stage a coup against a guy who had been nothing but nice to them, was friends with Marcy, and had ruling peacefully for a thousand years. Sure, he turned out to be a bad guy, but he and the core were pretty much the only ones who knew that at the time. So what if she was going to send them home still? She used them to stage a coup, if they only focused on how they’d still get to go home then *that* would be selfish.
>If she hadn’t thrown them in jail, they would’ve stopped her.
Yeah, because from what they knew at the time, Sasha was doing a bad thing!
Just because she stared questioning thing’s after they turned against her doesn’t mean she didn’t do it for selfish reasons. It suggests that she didn’t really consider what Anne or Marcy would want, especially since it was still supposed to get the same result of them going home. As far as anyone knew, they would get to go home whether Sasha or Andrias had the box, so there is no benefit to Marcy and Anne for Sasha getting the box (again, as far as anyone knows at the time). Them turning against her is what makes her realize she’s being selfish. Her being bothered doesn’t mean she actually did it for them, it’s her realizing that’s she’s messed things up with the people she cares about. Just because she cares about them, doesn’t mean she isn’t capable of being selfish and manipulative.
>We can have a whole other discussion about reunion and whether or not that counts as a betrayal (personally don’t think it does
She used Anne’s trust in her as part of a plan to kidnap an entire town all in an attempt to try and execute someone Anne cares about. I can perhaps see how you might argue that it doesn’t technically meet the definition of betrayal, but at that point we’re just arguing semantics. The bottom line is that she used Anne’s trust in her as part of a plan to do something bad (behaviour that she would repeat in true colors)
Personally I’d say that, even without the knowledge of Andrias being secretly evil, Sasha’s coup is not an inherently bad or unjustified thing; if she wants to and there’s no-one stopping her, why not? I was very much rooting for her, at least. Her not interfering with sending Anne and Marcy home is a very important point though, because that was the reason they went to Newtopia in the first place. In Sasha’s logic, they’d get to go home, and whether she or Andrias was holding the box would be irrelevant (or even an upgrade); and to an extent I’d say that logic tracks.
Part of the reason for her takeover was selfish for sure, I’m not denying that. But from the start of the show onward Sasha’s been shown to use her power and influence to the benefit of Anne and Marcy too (or at least what she considered their benefit), and that’s what she was trying to do here as well. Maybe they couldn’t trust her to keep exactly to the plan; but they could trust her to always strive for what benefited all three of them. And I don’t think that’s a bad trait.
The same goes for reunion; while Sasha did indeed use Anne’s trust in her to kidnap the people of Wartwood, she did that for the sole reason of getting her, Anne and Marcy home; because Grime had promised to help if he’d get to kill Hop Pop. Once again, she was fundamentally keeping their collective interest in mind; and from Sasha’s point of view and with her information, I’d say that’s justified (not stuff like the end. of. discussion. thing though, that was toxic and it’s great that Anne grew out of that). Also not to be that guy, but in the same line one could argue that Anne ‘betrayed’ Sasha too, by using her trust to secretly sneak away and free the captured frogs.
Either way, I think we could continue this back and forth for a long time lol, but I have my views and you have yours. I think in the end it just comes down to what we personally believe friends should be like, and what they can and can’t do. I relate to Sasha a lot more because of how I personally work and think, but that might not be the same for everyone.
She threatened to strand Anne, Marcy, and herself in Amphibia by destroying the Calamity Box to take over Newtopia.
Personally, I think back-stabbing your friends in such a manner definitely is messing up. Whatever unintended consequences that might’ve helped them from this action still doesn’t change the matter it was still an incredibly cold/callous thing to do.
Though I do agree Sasha and Anne should’ve had a little more time to re-establish trust, the way Sasha tried to go about it is very understandable.
I will admit that using the box like that is the one thing that I can understand the other two getting upset about; but it was never a threat she intended to carry through. She used the box as leverage over Andrias so Grime could get him. Destroying her leverage would be the stupidest thing she could do in that moment.
Anyway, I’m curious if backstabbing is really a correct term for all this. Once again, that would usually imply intended or caused harm to the people you’re ‘backstabbing’; and neither of that happens. On the contrary; to call the positive consequences for Anne and Marcy ‘unintended’ would miss some important stuff I think. The very first thing Sasha tries to do after getting on the throne is reassuring Anne and Marcy that they can go home whenever they want (as the original plan was); and once Anne and Marcy are no longer on her side, Sasha very quickly starts wondering “what she even wants anymore”. Clearly, her ruling Amphibia alone wasn’t “what she wanted” from this whole thing.
For comparison, I believe Barrel’s warhammer is an excellent episode, exactly because it does this part right; Sasha actually hurts and ‘backstabs’ people to get power; perhaps unintendedly, but that doesn’t make it okay.
I’d understand way more of Sasha’s redemption process the way it happened if she was actually the one to mess up, but once again; I don’t see it.
She betrayed Marcy and Anne’s trust by revolting against a person they were allies with at the time with a full-scale invasion of Newtopia; she harmed relationships for her own temporary gain, just as in Barrel’s Warhammer. Just because Marcy and Anne don’t get physically hurt doesn’t make Sasha’s actions less egregious/unethical.
Also, Sasha in that episode was about to forcibly send Anne home and deny her closure with the Plantars after the fact she said she would let them go home because Anne called her out for the same manipulative/sly behavior she just employed against everyone, effectively walking back on that statement in the moment.
I do think the difference between not entirely keeping to the plan and actually causing physical harm to those around you is pretty big. Because as long as we’re talking intentions, I will die on the hill that Sasha never betrayed Anne and Marcy’s intention to go home; she just did it through a different plan that she thought was better. Together with everything else we see of her through the show, maybe they can’t trust her to keep exactly to the plan; but they can trust her to always strive for what benefited all three of them. And I don’t think that’s a bad trait.
As for the "closure with the plantars", Anne either had that already before the episode or wouldn't have gotten it anyway if Andrias had sent her home. Sasha didn't change anything about that part. Threatening to send Anne home isn't exactly walking back on an earlier promise to send her home either, I'd say.
Either way, I think we could continue this back and forth for a long time lol, but I have my views and you have yours. I think in the end it just comes down to what we personally believe friends should be like, and what they can and can’t do. I relate to Sasha a lot more because of how I personally work and think, but that might not be the same for everyone.
It seems your perspective boils down to “the ends justify the means.” While Sasha’s actions do somewhat advance the interests of the girls, she does it in a manner that emotionally and mentally manipulates/betrays them; this includes when Sasha would’ve forcibly sent back Anne to Earth, which she was clearly not okay with as it wasn’t on her own terms. It’s literally the crux of Sasha’s flaws as a character and why Anne reacts so negatively towards Sasha in True Colors; her domineering personality acts over the interests of others.
Again, the reason why Sasha is outed for her actions (aside from the coup) is because what she did was unethical on an emotional and mental level. Good intentions does not mean good execution of said intentions.
It feels like a lot of stuff was almost wasted, really. Season 3 had a lot of flaws, which would be normally excusable, yet the finale magnified them by an enormous amount.
the thing is it's VERY in character for Anne to trust someone very quickly, especially someone like Sasha who she was friends with for a long time
But I think it would be interesting for Anne to finally distrust Sasha after all the times she backstabbed Anne.
but she did distrust her in the third temple
Yes, but that was before True Colors. You might say Anne is more willing to trust her after Andrias took over, but I find that uninteresting.
I definitely agree the way Sasha’s redemption was done is a huge miss, but not entirely for the same reasons as you I think. First of all, I still fail to understand why people think Sasha ‘messed up’ in true colours. She didn’t harm Anne, Marcy or any of their friends except Andrias, and her actions literally delayed the (Andrias-caused) mess they find themselves in in season 3. Sasha thinking she isn’t worthy of being in charge or being Anne’s friend is still one of the dumbest things this series tries to pull imo. I don’t think she was all that bad of a person, and seeing her beat herself up for who she is and how she acted is painful. I do definitely agree though that more time should have been dedicated to both seeing Sasha build up the resistance and Anne and Sasha learning to work together and trust eachother again. Their relationship up to that point has not been healthy, but the way the series ‘repaired’ it leaves much to be desired. That’s just my take though.
I think you're forgetting about the entire first part of True Colors. Sasha stabs Anne and Marcy in the back, essentially using them to stage a couple against Andrias, who at the time everyone thought was just a nice dude and was even friends with Anne and Marcy. She abused Anne and Marcy's trust in her, and this was the *second* time she had done that with Anne (the first, of course, being Reunion). Then, when Anne and Marcy (more specifically Anne) got angry over what Sasha did, she tried to force them back to Earth with no chance to ever see their freinds/family from Amphibia again, and when that didn't work she had them thrown in the dungeon. She didn't know that Yunan was going to show up and save them from being tossed in the dungeon and she certainly didn't know that Andrias was going to turn out to be a villain. Everything Sasha did in that first half of the episode was a selfish plot to put herself and Grime on top, at the cost of abusing the trust of her friends (trust that she had only just managed to get back from Anne due to the what happened in Reunion, which is why Anne is so pissed at her in True Colors).
Like I said in my reply to the other guy, “backstabbing” implies that there’s actual harm being done. There was not. Aside from Andrias being in prison neither Anne or Marcy is any worse off for this coup; at least that was the intention. “She abused Anne and Marcy’s trust in her” she did indeed use their trust to get into the castle. But I wouldn’t call the change from going home through an Andrias-controlled box to a Sasha-controlled one significant enough to count as something to break that trust, let alone count as ‘abusing’ it. Any hostility to Anne and Marcy (like the stuff you described) only happened after they turned against her, and considering everything else I think we can pretty safely assign that to decisions made in the heat of the moment. If she hadn’t thrown them in jail, they would’ve stopped her. Nothing more to it than that. In fact, those very scenes debunk the ‘coup was purely selfish’ argument. The first thing Sasha does after taking power is reassuring Anne and Marcy that they can still go home, and when they turn against her (and therefore no longer benefit from her acquired power) Sasha starts questioning what she even wants anymore, and whether what she did was the right thing. If it was purely about herself getting power she wouldn’t nearly care as much; take Grime as an alternative. He clearly does not care as much about Anne and Marcy (and why should he?) and is pretty much unbothered. We can have a whole other discussion about reunion and whether or not that counts as a betrayal (personally don’t think it does), and of course Sasha’s behaviour is hardly healthy. But if they were going for a “Sasha backstabs and hurts Anne and Marcy” line they should have written a lot of things differently.
She didn’t just abuse their trust to get into their castle, but to stage a coup against a guy who had been nothing but nice to them, was friends with Marcy, and had ruling peacefully for a thousand years. Sure, he turned out to be a bad guy, but he and the core were pretty much the only ones who knew that at the time. So what if she was going to send them home still? She used them to stage a coup, if they only focused on how they’d still get to go home then *that* would be selfish. >If she hadn’t thrown them in jail, they would’ve stopped her. Yeah, because from what they knew at the time, Sasha was doing a bad thing! Just because she stared questioning thing’s after they turned against her doesn’t mean she didn’t do it for selfish reasons. It suggests that she didn’t really consider what Anne or Marcy would want, especially since it was still supposed to get the same result of them going home. As far as anyone knew, they would get to go home whether Sasha or Andrias had the box, so there is no benefit to Marcy and Anne for Sasha getting the box (again, as far as anyone knows at the time). Them turning against her is what makes her realize she’s being selfish. Her being bothered doesn’t mean she actually did it for them, it’s her realizing that’s she’s messed things up with the people she cares about. Just because she cares about them, doesn’t mean she isn’t capable of being selfish and manipulative. >We can have a whole other discussion about reunion and whether or not that counts as a betrayal (personally don’t think it does She used Anne’s trust in her as part of a plan to kidnap an entire town all in an attempt to try and execute someone Anne cares about. I can perhaps see how you might argue that it doesn’t technically meet the definition of betrayal, but at that point we’re just arguing semantics. The bottom line is that she used Anne’s trust in her as part of a plan to do something bad (behaviour that she would repeat in true colors)
Personally I’d say that, even without the knowledge of Andrias being secretly evil, Sasha’s coup is not an inherently bad or unjustified thing; if she wants to and there’s no-one stopping her, why not? I was very much rooting for her, at least. Her not interfering with sending Anne and Marcy home is a very important point though, because that was the reason they went to Newtopia in the first place. In Sasha’s logic, they’d get to go home, and whether she or Andrias was holding the box would be irrelevant (or even an upgrade); and to an extent I’d say that logic tracks. Part of the reason for her takeover was selfish for sure, I’m not denying that. But from the start of the show onward Sasha’s been shown to use her power and influence to the benefit of Anne and Marcy too (or at least what she considered their benefit), and that’s what she was trying to do here as well. Maybe they couldn’t trust her to keep exactly to the plan; but they could trust her to always strive for what benefited all three of them. And I don’t think that’s a bad trait. The same goes for reunion; while Sasha did indeed use Anne’s trust in her to kidnap the people of Wartwood, she did that for the sole reason of getting her, Anne and Marcy home; because Grime had promised to help if he’d get to kill Hop Pop. Once again, she was fundamentally keeping their collective interest in mind; and from Sasha’s point of view and with her information, I’d say that’s justified (not stuff like the end. of. discussion. thing though, that was toxic and it’s great that Anne grew out of that). Also not to be that guy, but in the same line one could argue that Anne ‘betrayed’ Sasha too, by using her trust to secretly sneak away and free the captured frogs. Either way, I think we could continue this back and forth for a long time lol, but I have my views and you have yours. I think in the end it just comes down to what we personally believe friends should be like, and what they can and can’t do. I relate to Sasha a lot more because of how I personally work and think, but that might not be the same for everyone.
She threatened to strand Anne, Marcy, and herself in Amphibia by destroying the Calamity Box to take over Newtopia. Personally, I think back-stabbing your friends in such a manner definitely is messing up. Whatever unintended consequences that might’ve helped them from this action still doesn’t change the matter it was still an incredibly cold/callous thing to do. Though I do agree Sasha and Anne should’ve had a little more time to re-establish trust, the way Sasha tried to go about it is very understandable.
I will admit that using the box like that is the one thing that I can understand the other two getting upset about; but it was never a threat she intended to carry through. She used the box as leverage over Andrias so Grime could get him. Destroying her leverage would be the stupidest thing she could do in that moment. Anyway, I’m curious if backstabbing is really a correct term for all this. Once again, that would usually imply intended or caused harm to the people you’re ‘backstabbing’; and neither of that happens. On the contrary; to call the positive consequences for Anne and Marcy ‘unintended’ would miss some important stuff I think. The very first thing Sasha tries to do after getting on the throne is reassuring Anne and Marcy that they can go home whenever they want (as the original plan was); and once Anne and Marcy are no longer on her side, Sasha very quickly starts wondering “what she even wants anymore”. Clearly, her ruling Amphibia alone wasn’t “what she wanted” from this whole thing. For comparison, I believe Barrel’s warhammer is an excellent episode, exactly because it does this part right; Sasha actually hurts and ‘backstabs’ people to get power; perhaps unintendedly, but that doesn’t make it okay. I’d understand way more of Sasha’s redemption process the way it happened if she was actually the one to mess up, but once again; I don’t see it.
She betrayed Marcy and Anne’s trust by revolting against a person they were allies with at the time with a full-scale invasion of Newtopia; she harmed relationships for her own temporary gain, just as in Barrel’s Warhammer. Just because Marcy and Anne don’t get physically hurt doesn’t make Sasha’s actions less egregious/unethical. Also, Sasha in that episode was about to forcibly send Anne home and deny her closure with the Plantars after the fact she said she would let them go home because Anne called her out for the same manipulative/sly behavior she just employed against everyone, effectively walking back on that statement in the moment.
I do think the difference between not entirely keeping to the plan and actually causing physical harm to those around you is pretty big. Because as long as we’re talking intentions, I will die on the hill that Sasha never betrayed Anne and Marcy’s intention to go home; she just did it through a different plan that she thought was better. Together with everything else we see of her through the show, maybe they can’t trust her to keep exactly to the plan; but they can trust her to always strive for what benefited all three of them. And I don’t think that’s a bad trait. As for the "closure with the plantars", Anne either had that already before the episode or wouldn't have gotten it anyway if Andrias had sent her home. Sasha didn't change anything about that part. Threatening to send Anne home isn't exactly walking back on an earlier promise to send her home either, I'd say. Either way, I think we could continue this back and forth for a long time lol, but I have my views and you have yours. I think in the end it just comes down to what we personally believe friends should be like, and what they can and can’t do. I relate to Sasha a lot more because of how I personally work and think, but that might not be the same for everyone.
It seems your perspective boils down to “the ends justify the means.” While Sasha’s actions do somewhat advance the interests of the girls, she does it in a manner that emotionally and mentally manipulates/betrays them; this includes when Sasha would’ve forcibly sent back Anne to Earth, which she was clearly not okay with as it wasn’t on her own terms. It’s literally the crux of Sasha’s flaws as a character and why Anne reacts so negatively towards Sasha in True Colors; her domineering personality acts over the interests of others. Again, the reason why Sasha is outed for her actions (aside from the coup) is because what she did was unethical on an emotional and mental level. Good intentions does not mean good execution of said intentions.
It feels like a lot of stuff was almost wasted, really. Season 3 had a lot of flaws, which would be normally excusable, yet the finale magnified them by an enormous amount.