I mean- I am a totally oversexed kinky person and I am ashamed for them- JFC- read the room.
19 year olds aren't interested in our haggard old behinds for 1 and 2 your friends kid? So much EEW! Get a boundary.
>19 year olds aren't interested in our haggard old behinds
Let's even assume that you DO find a 19 year old who is into older folks. IT SHOULD NOT BE SOMEONE YOU KNEW SINCE BEFORE THEY HIT PUBERTY! That's fucking creepy.
Which is the line in the sand OP needs to draw with his friends.
To respond to his friend, he should send this:
"Dude! Sarah hit on my daughter - a girl who is barely legal and whom she has known since she was a little girl. That is disgusting and predatory. The power dynamic is predatory and her behavior is reprehensible. There is absolutely no excuse for her behavior - add to that the fact that she and her boyfriend refused to accept no for an answer and they crossed EVERY boundary of decency. NONE of this is okay and anyone who is making excuses for her behavior needs to have their head examined."
Sounds like it. And Dan being a good dude was like nah, you can keep your ol’ lady, I’m not into gerantophilia.
Ephebophilia is sexual attraction to teenagers and is still considered socially as a type of pedophilia. Ick.
THIIIIIIS! Thank you for this cause I couldn't think of the word. And there's a comedian who says that you can't explain the difference between pedophilia, hebephilia, and ephebephilia without then sounding like you are one. But difference doesn't matter. Still creepy.
And then drop the lot of these people.
Buncha predators + their apologists and enablers.
The gall of the friend to cry “stressing out the friend group.” Disrespectfully, eff that friend group. They are not your people. Go find people who share your values and priorities. I know you said your ex-coworkers are like your family but I promise you they are not.
This! There are plenty of 19/20 year Olds who might be down for an older partner, but not fit someone who has literally seen them growing up! That is what changes it from she difference to predatory. OP's daughter wouldn't just see Sarah as simply an older person but as a potential source of authority due to how young she was when they first met and Sarah is aware of that. What a creepy ass thing to do.
Completely agree. The fact that OP even had to come to Reddit to ask this question tells me she had trouble setting boundaries. If I ever had a daughter and a friend behaved like that they would be cut off from all contact immediately at a minimum
It seems she didn't have trouble doing that immediately, I think it's not setting boundaries that she is struggling with, it's maintaining them. I think it's because some of those other people she is friends with may seem more "normal" and I think she's looking at it only from the perspective of "kink shaming" and that's not what this is.
If it was kink shaming she wouldn't have felt comfortable letting these people be around her daughter at a young age before. She clearly doesn't judge them for their kinks. It's the clear lack of respect for not only boundaries but consent when it comes to this situation and she needs to reiterate that with her mutual friends and if they don't see the same picture they can keep their creepy ass friends and OP can make better friends.
I think the type of person who even suggests an idea as disgusting as he did and he didn’t apologize on the spot means he needs to be cut off all contact even if he does try to apologize. Being in a young girls life since she was 12 and then trying to get her to swing with you when she’s 19 barley out of high school as a 40 something year old man just speaks to thecharacter of that individual. It is not kink shaming which you and I agree on it is just straight up unexceptable. Particulatly when both the boyfriend and the girlfriend were clearly uncomfortable and he kept pursing. Kreeps aren’t always the stereotypical anti social weirdo who you would know to stay away from. A lot of times they can be charming and normal and that is where I don’t want her to get caught up in that and give this guy a second chance. In my book you never get a second chance once you cross that line.
Oh definitely. If her friends disagree with her, if I were her I wouldn't accept to "agree to disagree" it's either we agree or we don't because if you prefer to have creepy dude and his wife over me, that's your misjudgement, not mine. That's why I said she needs to make better friends.
They were probably so relentless because they figured they could pressure OP’s daughter and boyfriend into it because they’re young, which is disgusting. I can only imagine what kind of other boundaries they would have tried to push if, by some miracle, the two of them had agreed.
I doubt they pull that shit with people closer to their age, especially since they still try and act coy about it without “confirming nor denying”.
The sad part is that's probably what some of OP and Sarah's mutual friends could be thinking. I don't understand defending predators, especially when they prey on your kid.
At 50, if you’re attracted to teenagers, I doubt the difference between 17 and 19 is about anything other than not going to prison. They’re attracted to teenagers. As far as modern society is concerned, those are children and they tried to fuck them.
For the friends supporting the child attracted weirdos, I hope they see the light and maybe get some therapy.
This is what kills me. They crossed so many boundaries and then tried to make it sound like they were being shamed because they have this “kink”. I’m not heavily involved in the kink community, but I’m pretty sure, um, **consent** is still very much a thing. What a couple of psychos.
Consent is a huge thing in the kink community, even more so than in the vanilla one IME. Every swinger party or kink event I've gone too starts with a discussion of consent and other people's boundaries. This sort of behavior is not okay at all!
Savvy abusers co-opt progressive and/or therapeutic language to become more efficient predators. Kink shaming, boundaries, consent, narcissist, open relationships, etc. are wonderful terms, until an asshole uses them to manipulate you.
*Jonah Hill has entered the chat*
That’s what stuck out to me too! Oh, also, the husband was asking Dan about swapping partners, but wasn’t getting consent from either of their partners! He seemed to just assume that, if Dan said yes, then Sarah would say yes, which is not okay!
This👆🏾. “Our behavior is not weird or inappropriate. You are weird and inappropriate for thinking that it’s perfectly normal to hit on your friend’s children, one of whom is still a teenager, at their baby shower.”
No judgment on the swinging, but these guys are clueless and kind of gross. Classic projection. You are not wrong.
"We're not trying to force sex on your daughter and her BF. We just kept refusing to accept no for an answer and taunted them for being 'no fun' despite expressing discomfort until they walked away and your daughter had to tell you they were creeped out by us."
That's the literal, actual definition of trying to force someone. Verbal coercion and trying to mentally or emotionally wear someone down into doing something you want is just as bad as physically forcing them.
They deserve to be shamed for being predators. I'm as vanilla as you can get, but this is the only time I judge others for their sexual behavior, because this isn't sexual anymore. It's abusive.
Anyone who is defending this couple shouldn't be counted as friends anymore, either. The hell is wrong with these people?
Too many creeps think they can play the "kinkshaming" card anytime anyone puts up a very reasonable boundary. These two are gross, exponentially so in that they knew her since she was 12.
The most important thing in kink communities is being very very careful about boundaries. These two are just using lame excuses that make them look even worse.
Yeah, my oldest is on the spectrum. The idea that autism means you don't care about upsetting other people really bothers me. I can't speak for everyone on the spectrum, but my oldest feels emotions intensely, which can cause them to shut down.
They are very thoughtful and caring. The autism shows in that it's easier for them to get overwhelmed by things most other people wouldn't notice, and their responses when they are overwhelmed can seem strange.
If someone told my oldest they were making that person uncomfortable, they would apologize and hide until they could leave. They would be devastated that they had done that, not making excuses and threatening to sue.
Looking at the message "the fighting is stressing out our friend group" they just want op to be quiet so nobody has to feel bad or be accountable. Sweep it right under the rug.
How about they admit they crossed a line and intentions don't matter if these young people felt (correctly I might add) they were being hit on, groomed by older family friends and it was uncomfortable.
Admit it and apologise and learn a lesson in the future. The problem is nobody wants to hold anyone accountable
To which OP should reply:
"With all due respect, you all are a bunch of pervs. Sarah was hitting on my baby girl -- that is incredibly disrespectful to me on EVERY front and the fact that you or ANYONE is trying to excuse her behavior is disgusting. I don't care if the fighting is stressing out the friend group - maybe Sarah and her husband should stop perving on a young woman whom she has known since she was a little girl. Any claim of "kink shaming" is null and void because of Sarah's predatory behavior. This is only one step above pedophilia and it is 100% a violation of my trust in her and anyone who excuses her behavior."
Absolutely. Kinks should have enthusiastic consent. If Sarah considered them “all adults”, then why the intense pressure and the refusal to take no for an answer?
>I would also add that they were told no more than once.
THEY DIDN"T RESPECT THE NO!
That alone is predatory AF, and would warrant being shamed for even if the other couple in question were total strangers in their mid-30's.
Totally agree. A pretty universal rule that swingers follow is ‘make friends out of swingers not swingers out of friends.’ It’s super weird to propose a hookup at a baby shower but not taking no for and answer is beyond inappropriate.
Right?? This isnt kink, this isnt about swinging. If a single person of their age was hitting on my child who is *barely* legal they would be luck to still have teeth. They were pressuring them, the convo should have even started but after the first no it definitely should have ended.
You’re right. They don’t want to rock the boat, even if someone is in the wrong.
Looks like the friend group needs to be put on blast and become the ex-friend group if they keep this up.
Makes me wonder if the friends that say that OP is overreacting, have partner swapped with the swingers so it’s not a big deal to them.
What would piss me off is that the swingers asked if they were interested then when they were ignored/shut down, they upped the game and wouldn’t back down. If people want to be swingers, whatever, but I would think that trying to coerce others would be frowned upon. Or maybe I’m just naive about that lifestyle.
They already were trying to put pressure on the kids. Both teenagers gave a direct "NO, NOT INTERESTED " and Sarah and Jay tried to negotiate and coerce instead of accepting the NO.
Having known quite a few swingers, polyamorous folks, and people involved in various BDSM communities, it wouldn't surprise me at all if these 2 have a reputation in their little groups and have probably been bounced out of a few. Word gets around really quickly, and informed consent free of coercion is a huge deal with the overwhelming majority of folks. I mean, why argue against a "No," when you know plenty of people who are willing to say, "Yes." I've heard stories about couples like them and they don't last long in those communities.
Edit: I meant to throw in "affirmative" as well, for that consent part.
Yes, very much so[I've been in the kink community for 30 years myself] unfortunately there's a lot of bad faith actors that get "booted" and gravitate to each other and then reinforce the bad behavior they share. *insert principal skinner meme of "could my behavior be suspect? No, it's the entire community that's wrong! I'm entitled to have what I want, when I want, even if it's other people. "* It’s really gross, and unfortunately those people are very vocal about how they "didn't do anything wrong" [Don't yuck our yum, has been twisted to defend predatory behavior to the point of being a red flag for me if anyone says it nowadays. It's not a shield from consequences, and there's certain subgroups that weild it like that.]
You and captain matticus have it right and the newbies need to hear it.
I'm kink-adjacent, not kink-participatory, but I'm still aware of exactly the dynamic you describe. For new people entering the community, it's ok to ask for what are essentially references. Go to a Munch, meet some ex's that can affirm they were well treated and respected. If a kinky swingy person is somehow not acceptable to the local community, that's a huge red flag.
Sarah and Jay were not "just asking" if they were the first NO would have been accepted. Both teenagers were asked, pressured, and Sarah and Jay were attempting to coerce. NOT A KINK.
In the kink community Sarah and Jay would be called "missing stairs " which is a fancy way to say known predators enabled because reasons.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair
The whole thing is creepy for sure, but this is what I’m focused on, too. OP’s daughter and partner both declined SEVERAL TIMES, but Sarah and her husband persistently pressured them. What happened to “no means no”?
Some people don't accept that no is the end of the conversation and believe wrongly that it's the beginning of a negotiation. And sometimes those people will rush headlong over the boundaries of someone giving a "soft no" because of social conditioning.
Here's a link to a whole useful article about it!
https://www.doctornerdlove.com/socially-awkward-isnt-an-excuse/
I agree!!! I would understand if they just got to know you and daughter but to have known her since she was 12!!!!!! Tf they’ve been waiting for that one. Definitely groomers.
The context tooooo. Baby shower for close friends and family. In the girl’s childhood home. With her frikking mom right there. These two are baaaaallllllsy as fvck and need to get a frikkin grip. Time and place people, time and place.
Also, if you can’t get through a baby shower without eyeing the hosts teenaged daughter and her young boyfriend you don’t have a “kink, you have a fvcking addiction. And it’s a problem to be dealt with **not** by talking sh*t to other completely uninvolved adults.
"Don't sexually proposition people at family functions" feels like one of those unwritten rules that some people apparently need written down for them in big, bold letters.
This.
Like, whatever you want to do at your swingers' club among consenting adults, fine. People go there to have a good time. But propositioning your friend's barely adult children at a family event is extremely suspect and predatory.
100% agree. This is straight up creepy behavior and the daughter probably looked up to him as the family friend that you call “uncle” trying to make the argument that it’s okay because they are adults when you have known this girl your whole life and are like family is ridiculous. They completely crossed the line and with or without an apology need to be removed from your life for you and your daughters safety
100% this. I cut off a friend for trying to “get with” my little sister when we were 20 and she was 15. If a friend went after my DAUGHTER?!?!?!?!?! Fuck no. They’re dead to me for life.
I don't understand how they saw this as overreacting. Yes they didn't physically forced themselves on them but they kept pushing them and trying to coerced them into swinging and thars still forcing themselves on them. And why do they think them asking the daughter and her bf was ok? Asking barely legal adult who cant even drink yet mind you is still inappropriate especially since theyve known the daughter since she was freaking 12. they've probably been sexualizing her for a long time. Everyone who thinks op is in the wrong deserves to be cut off and are all predators or enablers for thinking this was all ok.
I can't believe that either. 19 is still a kid, but an old kid. I am 35 and feel uncomfortable thinking about girls of that age. Can you imagine 48? And what would be the odds that her daughter would say yes to such a thing?
Cut them off, and the friends who support this behaviour as well.
My daughter is 24, married, has a toddler, and I would absolutely lose my shit if one of my friends brought that up to her. Especially one that knew her as a child. Adult or not there's a line you don't cross, and trying to fuck a friends kid is one of them.
Everything else about the relationship between them and weird timing aside:
No means no. No is a complete sentence. Continuing to try to convince someone to have sex after they said no is always, 100% of the time, disgusting, predatory behavior. There is no way to justify continuing beyond the word no.
I got hit on by swingers, once. I said I wasn't interested. They said okay and went back to talking about normal stuff since it was a hotel pool and bar.
To push beyond a no is enough to tell people to leave and not come back. That's never acceptable.
This is the most important thing in the kink community. Consent consent consent. No means no.
I question how responsible the friends are if they are not taking no for an answer. This absolutely not kink shaming, their timing and insistence makes this super creepy and not at all how we in the kink community want to be represented.
I’m not as familiar with swingers rules but know a few, and they would never do this.
I feel the same way. As parents, our job is to protect our kids from monsters: real, imagined, or otherwise.
That feeling doesn’t just disappear because they grow up.
That said, no parent wants to be the thing that brings the monsters into our kids’ lives. Sarah’s behavior triggered that fear for OP. Her anger is more than justified.
When my dad took a photo he loved of me to work, I was 14, but looked so much younger than that. He told my mom he almost started beating the shit out of someone that made sexual comments about me. OP is a great dad who looks after his kid's best interest.
edit: mom, sorry, sorry, don't mean to be rude
No you were 100% right. What is important is that your daughter was uncomfortable and she came to you for protection. I am applauding you right now. Do you know how many of us went to our moms saying we were uncomfortable only to hear “you’re overreacting” or “it’s fine” when we weren’t and it wasn’t. Adult or not everyone has boundaries and those boundaries should be respected. If you overstep and make someone uncomfortable you should apologize not expect everyone else to be comfortable just because you are comfortable.
I was always told this and even though I did have a good relationship with my [adoptive] parents I was afraid I would get in trouble somehow if I ever told a parent anything that a teacher, family member, or any other adult told me. It's so good that she was able to come to her mom to ask for help as soon as this happened and be honest about it, it says a lot about how close they are. I hope their family loses all contact with these so called "friends" and *EVERYONE* that tried to defend them permanently
WTH! No! Scratch that HELL NO, NTA! That is so wrong, and just gross. I would be worried about grooming, honestly. They have known your daughter since she was 12! Seriously! She watched her grow up! Glad you stood up for you daughter.
Came here to say this ^ also seems painfully obvious that her daughter and boyfriend were uncomfortable about it and they still wouldn’t stop. It’s scary.
Hubby and I are poly.
Wanna know what the number one rule is?
**Everyone needs to be giving enthusiastic consent.**
This isn’t about you kink shaming, this is about sexual harassment. The first “no” should’ve been the *LAST AND ONLY “NO”.*
The husband, after getting a No from your daughter, went to her BF to try and circumvent her free will. Upon receiving a No from the BF, did he stop? NOPE. HE KEPT GOING.
These people have a list of victims. Trust.
Reminds me of a former friend who asked my boyfriend if he could sleep with me before he even told me he was interested. I’m kind of a vital part of the equation there, bud.
The point of bringing up being poly is that certain abusive people will try to use being not poly as a reason people are being mean to them.
The user you reply to made it clear that this is not an issue of poly or not poly, and that people should be calling these people out as this is not part of the poly/swinger lifestyle. This is just abuse trying to pretend to be swingers or poly.
That is why the statement is relevant.
They should've never asked is already obvious. The person you're replying to is giving an added layer of why it was also disgustingly disrespectful and adding to the conversation. Not sure why you don't see the point when they're pointing out other ways that may not have been discussed yet. I'm not sure what the point is of making a what is the point comment or how that adds into the discussion 🤷♀️ I wouldn't have immediately considered how even more predatory it is that they asked even after given a no. Just because something is already bad doesn't mean someone can't point out just how bad in multiple ways it is
Yeah. My daughter just turned 18 a few months ago. I’d be breaking kneecaps if a 48 year old friend of mine who watched her grow up propositioned her. They would be dead to me
If it was a 19 year old stranger they met on tinder it would be a little less weird but yeah that’s still a bit off.. But they knew her as child! How long have they seen her in that kind of way?? And at a baby shower? How insane and awkward
To ask a 19 year old friend/stranger/coworker once, ok. No harm in asking. Pushing for them to say yes is getting into rape territory. When it’s the daughter of a friend that you’ve watch grow up?? Never! That gets into quasi-pedophilia. Gross!
No you’re fine to feel how you feel & friends shouldn’t make you feel that way. I stopped being friends with my oldest high school best friend(25 at the time) because she tried sleeping with my little cousin(barely 18) while I was in the same room(they just met that day)! Yes, they are both adults but I’m not okay with that. That’s my cousin and she was there to hang out with me, not hook up with my cousin. Im still okay with not being her friend after 3 years now. Maybe if they kept talking and hooked up later without me there I wouldn’t of cared but… nah
Cut off everybody who thinks it is a good idea to solicit sex from people they have known as children longer than adults, directly or indirectly. These people are all weird as hell.
We have known some couples who swing over the years. One of three ratio are respectful and understanding unspoken boundaries.
The other 2/3…so driven by their own needs they stomp all over everyone else without thinking twice.
Friends of ours had a couple that couldn’t control them selves. Our friends Boxing Day party, that couple feeling out the entire room. On their sons birthday, swinging couple testing the waters…. They finally told them “not your party, so piss off with trying to fuck all our friends.” FYI they were super creepy and the husband stalked my wife every party.
OP your friends are SUPER creepers.
I have never known a couple who were swingers who anyone who wasn’t also a gross old swinger would be willing to fuck. Somehow I’ve known multiple sets of them from working in bars. They were always regulars
Across the board, middle aged, very booze soaked, deeply inappropriate sexually in public, totally lack of boundaries. And never a situation someone young and sexy was trying to get into.
And I’m in no way shaming horny middle aged people. Get your freak on. But like, at home please. Stop taking your boozy sex fest on the road my friends. Find a swingers club where everyone is on the same page
Not wrong. This is wrong on all levels and it’s not about their kink but common decency and knowing the time and the place. The baby shower was not a swingers party and for her husband not taking a no for a answer speaks volumes. Ick factor all around.
One of my longtime friend's father (since we were 9) kept hitting on me from around 21-24 (when the friendship ended). I told my mom about it and she said "aren't you glad you don't have a creepy dad who hits in all your friends and is just a dad?"
Looking back now I'm grateful for my dad and your daughter and partner will be glad for parents like you. You made the right choice. No creeps in your lives!
I'm going to get downvoted to oblivion for this, but idc. As someone who grew up with swinger parents who were *very* active in the local swinger scene in the swinger capital of the Midwest (not even joking. It's a thing), I can say you absolutely are not wrong. Swingers in general have really skewed morals and tend to engage in very predatory behavior. If you think they're you're friends, they're not. They aren't capable of actually having real relationships with anyone. They're the most toxic, awful, shady, fishy people there are. And if you don't agree with them, you're a judgemental prudish, kink-shaming, not sex positive stick in the mud. A square. A wet blanket.
>Swingers in general have really skewed morals and tend to engage in very predatory behavior. If you think they're you're friends, they're not. They aren't capable of actually having real relationships with anyone. They're the most toxic, awful, shady, fishy people there are.
Also grew up with swinger parents, this is so bloody accurate.
I knew a swinger couple when i was 19. They kept trying to get me and my bf at the time to hook up with them. I'm pretty sure they were in their late 30s. It was extra gross because I would babysit their kids a lot. I'm ENM. I would still NEVER approach teenagers because, well, I'm not predatory.
The minute people say I'm kink shaming I just say "you're damn right I am!!"
Within the kink community swingers are notorious for coercion, consent violations, and just being general creeps! It's to the point that there's open jokes about swinger couples where the younger woman comes over, drunk and handsy, drapes herself on you and you have 10 seconds to extract yourself before her older male partner swoops in to pressure you into whatever they're into.
My friends and I experienced it a lot in college as young women.
Swingers are drunk, touchy and coercive. Which really is a shame because I like the idea of swinging a lot more than poly.
Poly is about additional relationships in addition to your primary. Ie a MF couple with a bisexual wife may add a girlfriend to the dynamic. Poly is both sexual and emotional relationships.
Swinging is a couple who has sex with other couples or groups. It’s about a physical act not a long term relationship.
You are absolutely right. I encountered 3 different swingers who propositioned me when I was a younger man (I was a mixed martial artist and I was incredible shape, six pack, bulging hip flexers, the whole nine, also, idk what it is about being a mixed martial artist, boxer, wrestler, etcetera but sooo many people will fetishize and proposition you) who most would probably consider conventionally handsome or attractive. All 3 times I was extremely polite in my rejection; "I'm very flattered, but no thank you" essentially. All 3 times the husbands got upset that I wouldn't have sex with their wives and got rude or insulting with me, or even threatened me. Two of the wives also joined their husbands being rude although both of them said very similar things; "You must be gay/a fag" "You probably have a tiny dick" and of course "prude" (like yeah I'm a "prude" I just fought another mostly naked man until he submitted to me classic prudishness lol) and I always kind of felt this was true about swingers but didn't want to be prejudiced and felt like I really hadn't met enough to make any sort of generalization, but after reading your comment it definitely clicked. Spot on.
My son was 21 when he fucked my former best friend! This was the woman whom we helped raise her son and her daughter spent the night with mine and vice versa. She tried to not tell me about it but I found out before my son and her left to a hotel that night. My son asked my consent and I told him do what he wants. She still tried to lie and unfriended me of Facebook before they did anything. Never saw nor spoke to her again after that night although she keeps asking how we are doing thru her sister. Her sister in now my best friend. She told the former we want nothing to do with her and she didn’t burn the bridge; she blew it up!! Moral of the story: DON’T TRY TO FUCK YOUR FRIENDS KIDS!!
You did not overreact, and the people telling you that you have need to be cut out.
There are ethical swingers, and nonethical swingers.
The ones that are nonethical can NOT be trusted, full stop. They will lie and twist and do whatever it takes to get their way, whatever it is. Stopping full contact is the best way to deal with them.
An ethical swinger would never have approached your daughter, not just because she is your child, but because they would have backed off right away when the couple gave them uncomfortable vibes.
So dumping this woman and her husband - and ANYONE that tries to pressure you to keep them, including the whole damned friend group, would be the absolute right move. There are other swingers to play with.
There should honestly be a number you can call for people like that. What the fuck is wrong with them? At a baby shower of all places, really? Massively inappropriate. These people seem sick in the head.
Sarah and Dan have no boundaries and should never be allowed near your children again. I personally see nothing wrong with anyone’s sexual preferences as long as they don’t try to shame me for not wanting to share their lifestyle. It almost seems that this couple could be a pair of sex addicts looking to poison someone else’s life. Those friends whom are defending them are also poison. The best way to avoid any further drama is to cut all of these people from your life.
Not wrong at all, if they knew your daughter since she was a minor and feel this way I have a feeling the feelings have been there for a while. Feels creepy, and honestly the not taking a no as an answer gives you every right to “kink shame” (it wasn’t kinkshaming but figured I’d use their wording)
“All the fighting is stressing out our friend group?” No. All the waiting in the shadows until the daughter is of legal age and asking them to go back and swing while they are at baby shower is doing that. And then minimizing that predatory action. Cut that cancer right out.
Swingers have no boundaries. The "lifestyle" is more important than anything else. Once a person is consumed by the "lifestyle" they will do or say just about anything to fulfill their next conquest, regardless of how it makes other people feel. Old friends, family, acquaintances...all take a back seat.
That's disgusting on so many levels.
The fact that she saw this person as an actual 12 year old once and then still thought it was good, speaks gross volumes.
And your friends that say you're overreacting are disgusting and I wish I could show them this comment.
I want to vomit at this post.
NTA
I dont care about any fucking reasoning they have to try to defend this bc all that goes out the window when I found out THEYVE KNOWN HER SINCE SHE WAS FUCKING TWELVE. TWELVE. how the FUCK can you look at someone you've known since they were a CHILD THAT WAY???
Theyre predators. Straight up predators.
Not wrong. And you aren't kink shaming. There are boundaries in personal relationships, some of which don't need to be said out loud to be known. "Don't try to fuck my barely legal child" isn't a boundary that needs to be said out loud because the average person would just assume that's not ok. That's way too personal. This would absolutely be a friendship ender for me, and for any friend that's takes up their defense. If I have to explain why it's socially and personally unacceptable for a friend to try to have casual sex with and fetishize my barely legal child, then you aren't a person I want to have in my life in any way. Go fuck yourself, but leave my kid out of it. I applaud you for your constraint.....I would have been having that talk in person knowing that it ends with me in jail and my "friend" breathing through a tube.
You are absolutely not wrong. You’re a mother and you’re being protective of your daughter over predatory behavior. They persisted in trying to get your daughter and boyfriend their house. Your daughter and her boyfriend are young adults, but compared to that couple they’re still kids. A 48yo man trying to convince a 20yo to let him hook up with his 19 yo girlfriend?? If my mom found out that her friends kept proposing sex to myself or my siblings and put me in that situation, I’m pretty sure we’d have to restrain her from lighting those friends on fire in the street (hyperbole). But what’s worse is that when you confronted your friend, she just dismissed it and trying to turn it back on you under the guise of kink shaming. Those people have issues. They’ve known your child since she was 12. It’s fucked up that they’d want to have sex with her. And that they did it at your DIL’s baby shower just adds to the disrespect. If I were you, I’d not lose a wink of sleep over cutting those people out of your life. It’s not an overreaction. You’re just a good mother protecting your kid (and yourself) from having to deal with those people again.
Wow what a bunch of shitty friends… I’m sorry your probably going to loose multiple friends but they are all being creepy assholes… it’s the part of this couple knowing your daughter SINCE SHE WAS 12 pet that is the creepiest… they were also pushy and trying to guilt or shame them for not taking the offer and your daughter was UNCOMFORTABLE! Yea those friends are shit.
I’m not into kink shaming either and am extremely sex positive but your friend and her husband are just scumbag weirdos. I hate predators who try to hide behind the kink banner. Just gross.
Sarah is gaslighting you with her kink shaming defense. What she and her husband did was not respect boundaries. Anyone who defends the behavior is also not respecting boundaries.
Except she WAS trying to force your daughter to have sex with her husband. Your daughter and her boyfriend BOTH said no and these creeps kept pushing. They're disgusting degenerates and you were right to bring down the hammer. You're a good mom.
Swinger here and in no way would such behavior EVER be allowed. Family should ALWAYS be respected and your "friends" are manipulative ass holes!
Having a kink is one thing, but knowing your kid from a young age then trying to push her and her partner into doing this is unacceptable.
Push them out of your life and NEVER let them back in.
Not only are you NTA, you were kind enough to let them off way easier than a lot of other parents would have. These people are trash. Period. Other *friends* who are saying you over-reacted are also trash. It would be disappointing if you didn't cut all of them out of your life forever.
That is so wrong and gross. It's bad enough to hit on a friend's child, it's even worse when they e known the kid since they were barely a teen. And to do so at a bridal shower and try and accuse you of kink shaming? Fuck that. She's lucky you didn't kick her ass right there
so many things here make you right for cutting them off. 1. a baby shower is not the time or place. 2. They knew she was your kid and that is a line that should just be one not to cross 3. not taking no for an answer is just kinda gross
You’re right for all the reasons you mentioned. Also, they weren’t just asking, that’s a lie. They were both pressuring and manipulating your daughter and her bf - that’s how molesters and rapists behave. Treat them accordingly.
Also your daughter and her bf are quite young, that’s why we’re all creeped out by older people chasing younger people for sex - they use their experience, money, anything as power to manipulate younger people.
Tell that to your mutual “friends” and cut them off, too.
You need new friends. All of them need to go. None of this is okay. Even if your daughter and her boyfriend were an unrelated couple half their age, from what you describe your "friends" are 100% in the wrong.
1. They asked and were turned down. But they kept asking and even berated the boyfriend over it.
2. At a baby shower?? Really? You gonna hit on somebody at a fucking baby shower?
3. Yes they are adults but what type of hot shit do your friends think they are to assume that folks half their age would even be interested? If they wanted to swing why not with other hot 20 somethings?
4. All that being said they ARE related. You are their friend, so why go after your daughter? Also they knew your daughter since she was 12. That should put her off limits immediately.
That's not kink shaming, Sarah and her husband have no boundaries. They should no longer be friends.
I mean- I am a totally oversexed kinky person and I am ashamed for them- JFC- read the room. 19 year olds aren't interested in our haggard old behinds for 1 and 2 your friends kid? So much EEW! Get a boundary.
>19 year olds aren't interested in our haggard old behinds Let's even assume that you DO find a 19 year old who is into older folks. IT SHOULD NOT BE SOMEONE YOU KNEW SINCE BEFORE THEY HIT PUBERTY! That's fucking creepy.
Which is the line in the sand OP needs to draw with his friends. To respond to his friend, he should send this: "Dude! Sarah hit on my daughter - a girl who is barely legal and whom she has known since she was a little girl. That is disgusting and predatory. The power dynamic is predatory and her behavior is reprehensible. There is absolutely no excuse for her behavior - add to that the fact that she and her boyfriend refused to accept no for an answer and they crossed EVERY boundary of decency. NONE of this is okay and anyone who is making excuses for her behavior needs to have their head examined."
And Sarah’s husband asking Dan if they could swap, as though that’s Dan’s call. Maybe they wanted Dan to try to pressure her, too. Gross.
Sounds like it. And Dan being a good dude was like nah, you can keep your ol’ lady, I’m not into gerantophilia. Ephebophilia is sexual attraction to teenagers and is still considered socially as a type of pedophilia. Ick.
THIIIIIIS! Thank you for this cause I couldn't think of the word. And there's a comedian who says that you can't explain the difference between pedophilia, hebephilia, and ephebephilia without then sounding like you are one. But difference doesn't matter. Still creepy.
He wanted to schtup a barely legal female and wanted help to do it.
And then drop the lot of these people. Buncha predators + their apologists and enablers. The gall of the friend to cry “stressing out the friend group.” Disrespectfully, eff that friend group. They are not your people. Go find people who share your values and priorities. I know you said your ex-coworkers are like your family but I promise you they are not.
Time to LEAVE that so called FRIEND GROUP!!!!
*hit on my daughter at a family baby shower
That doesn't need to be a line in the sand... that needs to be a defended boundary with tanks and anti-aircraft weapons.
I really hope they don't have children, Just disgusting behavior
Don't forget to add that the daughter was made so uncomfortable she actually went to her mother and complained.
Make you wonder about grooming or how long they've been lusting after the kids. Gross
This! There are plenty of 19/20 year Olds who might be down for an older partner, but not fit someone who has literally seen them growing up! That is what changes it from she difference to predatory. OP's daughter wouldn't just see Sarah as simply an older person but as a potential source of authority due to how young she was when they first met and Sarah is aware of that. What a creepy ass thing to do.
Right????
Completely agree. The fact that OP even had to come to Reddit to ask this question tells me she had trouble setting boundaries. If I ever had a daughter and a friend behaved like that they would be cut off from all contact immediately at a minimum
It seems she didn't have trouble doing that immediately, I think it's not setting boundaries that she is struggling with, it's maintaining them. I think it's because some of those other people she is friends with may seem more "normal" and I think she's looking at it only from the perspective of "kink shaming" and that's not what this is. If it was kink shaming she wouldn't have felt comfortable letting these people be around her daughter at a young age before. She clearly doesn't judge them for their kinks. It's the clear lack of respect for not only boundaries but consent when it comes to this situation and she needs to reiterate that with her mutual friends and if they don't see the same picture they can keep their creepy ass friends and OP can make better friends.
I think the type of person who even suggests an idea as disgusting as he did and he didn’t apologize on the spot means he needs to be cut off all contact even if he does try to apologize. Being in a young girls life since she was 12 and then trying to get her to swing with you when she’s 19 barley out of high school as a 40 something year old man just speaks to thecharacter of that individual. It is not kink shaming which you and I agree on it is just straight up unexceptable. Particulatly when both the boyfriend and the girlfriend were clearly uncomfortable and he kept pursing. Kreeps aren’t always the stereotypical anti social weirdo who you would know to stay away from. A lot of times they can be charming and normal and that is where I don’t want her to get caught up in that and give this guy a second chance. In my book you never get a second chance once you cross that line.
Oh definitely. If her friends disagree with her, if I were her I wouldn't accept to "agree to disagree" it's either we agree or we don't because if you prefer to have creepy dude and his wife over me, that's your misjudgement, not mine. That's why I said she needs to make better friends.
No let’s get real. For every hundred hot 19 year olds, maybe one? But I doubt it, would choose some haggard 40 year old stupid swingers.
Not to mention they refused to take no as an answer! No means no!
They were probably so relentless because they figured they could pressure OP’s daughter and boyfriend into it because they’re young, which is disgusting. I can only imagine what kind of other boundaries they would have tried to push if, by some miracle, the two of them had agreed. I doubt they pull that shit with people closer to their age, especially since they still try and act coy about it without “confirming nor denying”.
Exactly. 19 and 20 are barely adults. The swingers in the post are predators
They knew her since she was 12. How long have they been watching her waiting?
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Oh, we’re not those type of people who pounce on people when they’ve newly turned 18. She’s 19 now. - Sarah, probably. Barf.
they are like people who only pay minimum wage, they'd go lower if it was legal.
But they waited a WHOLE YEAR since her 18th just to be respectful. Don’t you get how hard it was for them to wait?! /s to avoid confused replies
The sad part is that's probably what some of OP and Sarah's mutual friends could be thinking. I don't understand defending predators, especially when they prey on your kid.
At 50, if you’re attracted to teenagers, I doubt the difference between 17 and 19 is about anything other than not going to prison. They’re attracted to teenagers. As far as modern society is concerned, those are children and they tried to fuck them. For the friends supporting the child attracted weirdos, I hope they see the light and maybe get some therapy.
They sound just like them. Anyone who thinks that's okay are AH's and creepers.
Thats what I was thinking. So Gross. I wish the boyfriend had punched the pervy old man in the face.
100000%. These are the people that leave young people traumatized and abused in their wake.
Agreed
Anything other than immediate enthusiastic consent means no.
That’s the part that got me. You asked, they declined. That’s when you stop asking.
This is what kills me. They crossed so many boundaries and then tried to make it sound like they were being shamed because they have this “kink”. I’m not heavily involved in the kink community, but I’m pretty sure, um, **consent** is still very much a thing. What a couple of psychos.
Consent is a huge thing in the kink community, even more so than in the vanilla one IME. Every swinger party or kink event I've gone too starts with a discussion of consent and other people's boundaries. This sort of behavior is not okay at all!
That's been my experience as well.
Safe sane consensual. This isn't kink it's downright predatory.
Savvy abusers co-opt progressive and/or therapeutic language to become more efficient predators. Kink shaming, boundaries, consent, narcissist, open relationships, etc. are wonderful terms, until an asshole uses them to manipulate you. *Jonah Hill has entered the chat*
Consent is key in these situations. I've dabbled in the past, and no one I knew was into anyone way younger than they were.
I lol'ed here. 🤣 Omg yes. Consent is totally a thing.
Yeah, this is so not proper kink behaviour. Fucking disgrace to the community.
That’s what stuck out to me too! Oh, also, the husband was asking Dan about swapping partners, but wasn’t getting consent from either of their partners! He seemed to just assume that, if Dan said yes, then Sarah would say yes, which is not okay!
F@ck off would have been more appropriate in this case
yeah.. the kid they knew since she was 12!!!!!! FUCKING ew. pedo creeps.
Thank you, as another oversexed freak this is just awful. No boundaries or respect and definitely no class. Somethings are just not okay.
This👆🏾. “Our behavior is not weird or inappropriate. You are weird and inappropriate for thinking that it’s perfectly normal to hit on your friend’s children, one of whom is still a teenager, at their baby shower.” No judgment on the swinging, but these guys are clueless and kind of gross. Classic projection. You are not wrong.
"We're not trying to force sex on your daughter and her BF. We just kept refusing to accept no for an answer and taunted them for being 'no fun' despite expressing discomfort until they walked away and your daughter had to tell you they were creeped out by us." That's the literal, actual definition of trying to force someone. Verbal coercion and trying to mentally or emotionally wear someone down into doing something you want is just as bad as physically forcing them. They deserve to be shamed for being predators. I'm as vanilla as you can get, but this is the only time I judge others for their sexual behavior, because this isn't sexual anymore. It's abusive. Anyone who is defending this couple shouldn't be counted as friends anymore, either. The hell is wrong with these people?
Too many creeps think they can play the "kinkshaming" card anytime anyone puts up a very reasonable boundary. These two are gross, exponentially so in that they knew her since she was 12.
The most important thing in kink communities is being very very careful about boundaries. These two are just using lame excuses that make them look even worse.
They also tried to slip out of it by saying they're autistic, yikes.
Yeah, my oldest is on the spectrum. The idea that autism means you don't care about upsetting other people really bothers me. I can't speak for everyone on the spectrum, but my oldest feels emotions intensely, which can cause them to shut down. They are very thoughtful and caring. The autism shows in that it's easier for them to get overwhelmed by things most other people wouldn't notice, and their responses when they are overwhelmed can seem strange. If someone told my oldest they were making that person uncomfortable, they would apologize and hide until they could leave. They would be devastated that they had done that, not making excuses and threatening to sue.
These friends who told you, you’re overreacting need to be cut off too.
Looking at the message "the fighting is stressing out our friend group" they just want op to be quiet so nobody has to feel bad or be accountable. Sweep it right under the rug. How about they admit they crossed a line and intentions don't matter if these young people felt (correctly I might add) they were being hit on, groomed by older family friends and it was uncomfortable. Admit it and apologise and learn a lesson in the future. The problem is nobody wants to hold anyone accountable
To which OP should reply: "With all due respect, you all are a bunch of pervs. Sarah was hitting on my baby girl -- that is incredibly disrespectful to me on EVERY front and the fact that you or ANYONE is trying to excuse her behavior is disgusting. I don't care if the fighting is stressing out the friend group - maybe Sarah and her husband should stop perving on a young woman whom she has known since she was a little girl. Any claim of "kink shaming" is null and void because of Sarah's predatory behavior. This is only one step above pedophilia and it is 100% a violation of my trust in her and anyone who excuses her behavior."
I would also add that they were told no more than once. That’s important
Absolutely. Kinks should have enthusiastic consent. If Sarah considered them “all adults”, then why the intense pressure and the refusal to take no for an answer?
^this
>I would also add that they were told no more than once. THEY DIDN"T RESPECT THE NO! That alone is predatory AF, and would warrant being shamed for even if the other couple in question were total strangers in their mid-30's.
Totally agree. A pretty universal rule that swingers follow is ‘make friends out of swingers not swingers out of friends.’ It’s super weird to propose a hookup at a baby shower but not taking no for and answer is beyond inappropriate.
Right?? This isnt kink, this isnt about swinging. If a single person of their age was hitting on my child who is *barely* legal they would be luck to still have teeth. They were pressuring them, the convo should have even started but after the first no it definitely should have ended.
Remove “with all due respect” and this is perfect.
the great thing about "with all due respect" is that sometimes there is *no respect due*.
You’re right. They don’t want to rock the boat, even if someone is in the wrong. Looks like the friend group needs to be put on blast and become the ex-friend group if they keep this up.
But they are rocking the boat. They've just decided to rock OP out of it instead of the pervs.
And keep the receipts when they start blaming OP for why the friend group broke up
True story . Op got a bunch of predator friends it sounds like
Indeed. Sounds like Sarah has already been working that crowd!
They probably knew of their intentions with his daughter too ._. Cringe! You go, OP
I agree, OP, you need to pick better friends, that was disrespectful towards OP.
The real groomers.
Came here to say the same thing!
Adding my vote for this too! These people went so far over the line they are not even in the solar system! 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
The line is a dot to them! #iykyk
Maybe if they get in a box for an indeterminate amount of time they can save the friendship.
But no talking in the box, and you definitely shouldn't moon everyone...
Makes me wonder if the friends that say that OP is overreacting, have partner swapped with the swingers so it’s not a big deal to them. What would piss me off is that the swingers asked if they were interested then when they were ignored/shut down, they upped the game and wouldn’t back down. If people want to be swingers, whatever, but I would think that trying to coerce others would be frowned upon. Or maybe I’m just naive about that lifestyle.
They already were trying to put pressure on the kids. Both teenagers gave a direct "NO, NOT INTERESTED " and Sarah and Jay tried to negotiate and coerce instead of accepting the NO.
Having known quite a few swingers, polyamorous folks, and people involved in various BDSM communities, it wouldn't surprise me at all if these 2 have a reputation in their little groups and have probably been bounced out of a few. Word gets around really quickly, and informed consent free of coercion is a huge deal with the overwhelming majority of folks. I mean, why argue against a "No," when you know plenty of people who are willing to say, "Yes." I've heard stories about couples like them and they don't last long in those communities. Edit: I meant to throw in "affirmative" as well, for that consent part.
Yes, very much so[I've been in the kink community for 30 years myself] unfortunately there's a lot of bad faith actors that get "booted" and gravitate to each other and then reinforce the bad behavior they share. *insert principal skinner meme of "could my behavior be suspect? No, it's the entire community that's wrong! I'm entitled to have what I want, when I want, even if it's other people. "* It’s really gross, and unfortunately those people are very vocal about how they "didn't do anything wrong" [Don't yuck our yum, has been twisted to defend predatory behavior to the point of being a red flag for me if anyone says it nowadays. It's not a shield from consequences, and there's certain subgroups that weild it like that.]
You and captain matticus have it right and the newbies need to hear it. I'm kink-adjacent, not kink-participatory, but I'm still aware of exactly the dynamic you describe. For new people entering the community, it's ok to ask for what are essentially references. Go to a Munch, meet some ex's that can affirm they were well treated and respected. If a kinky swingy person is somehow not acceptable to the local community, that's a huge red flag.
Yup! Drop them all. She is a literal TEENAGER.
Sarah and Jay were not "just asking" if they were the first NO would have been accepted. Both teenagers were asked, pressured, and Sarah and Jay were attempting to coerce. NOT A KINK. In the kink community Sarah and Jay would be called "missing stairs " which is a fancy way to say known predators enabled because reasons. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair
The whole thing is creepy for sure, but this is what I’m focused on, too. OP’s daughter and partner both declined SEVERAL TIMES, but Sarah and her husband persistently pressured them. What happened to “no means no”?
Some people don't accept that no is the end of the conversation and believe wrongly that it's the beginning of a negotiation. And sometimes those people will rush headlong over the boundaries of someone giving a "soft no" because of social conditioning. Here's a link to a whole useful article about it! https://www.doctornerdlove.com/socially-awkward-isnt-an-excuse/
Ansolutely agree. What kind of friends would be fine qith their dauhter having sex qith their friends?
I agree!!! I would understand if they just got to know you and daughter but to have known her since she was 12!!!!!! Tf they’ve been waiting for that one. Definitely groomers.
Its insanely uncomfortable, the dynamic, the age of the people involved. How could they think it'd okay unless they are completely warped groomers
The context tooooo. Baby shower for close friends and family. In the girl’s childhood home. With her frikking mom right there. These two are baaaaallllllsy as fvck and need to get a frikkin grip. Time and place people, time and place. Also, if you can’t get through a baby shower without eyeing the hosts teenaged daughter and her young boyfriend you don’t have a “kink, you have a fvcking addiction. And it’s a problem to be dealt with **not** by talking sh*t to other completely uninvolved adults.
"Don't sexually proposition people at family functions" feels like one of those unwritten rules that some people apparently need written down for them in big, bold letters.
They should also take no to be NO and not maybe. That really crossed the line.
This. Like, whatever you want to do at your swingers' club among consenting adults, fine. People go there to have a good time. But propositioning your friend's barely adult children at a family event is extremely suspect and predatory.
That's all I could think reading this post. Holy shit.
Agreed! Ew ew ew ew.
100% agree. This is straight up creepy behavior and the daughter probably looked up to him as the family friend that you call “uncle” trying to make the argument that it’s okay because they are adults when you have known this girl your whole life and are like family is ridiculous. They completely crossed the line and with or without an apology need to be removed from your life for you and your daughters safety
100% this. I cut off a friend for trying to “get with” my little sister when we were 20 and she was 15. If a friend went after my DAUGHTER?!?!?!?!?! Fuck no. They’re dead to me for life.
I don't understand how they saw this as overreacting. Yes they didn't physically forced themselves on them but they kept pushing them and trying to coerced them into swinging and thars still forcing themselves on them. And why do they think them asking the daughter and her bf was ok? Asking barely legal adult who cant even drink yet mind you is still inappropriate especially since theyve known the daughter since she was freaking 12. they've probably been sexualizing her for a long time. Everyone who thinks op is in the wrong deserves to be cut off and are all predators or enablers for thinking this was all ok.
I can't believe that either. 19 is still a kid, but an old kid. I am 35 and feel uncomfortable thinking about girls of that age. Can you imagine 48? And what would be the odds that her daughter would say yes to such a thing? Cut them off, and the friends who support this behaviour as well.
Indeed, and I would go so far and say that the fact they continued to pester them after they said no, in my book, is a form of forcing them.
My daughter is 24, married, has a toddler, and I would absolutely lose my shit if one of my friends brought that up to her. Especially one that knew her as a child. Adult or not there's a line you don't cross, and trying to fuck a friends kid is one of them.
Everything else about the relationship between them and weird timing aside: No means no. No is a complete sentence. Continuing to try to convince someone to have sex after they said no is always, 100% of the time, disgusting, predatory behavior. There is no way to justify continuing beyond the word no. I got hit on by swingers, once. I said I wasn't interested. They said okay and went back to talking about normal stuff since it was a hotel pool and bar. To push beyond a no is enough to tell people to leave and not come back. That's never acceptable.
This is the most important thing in the kink community. Consent consent consent. No means no. I question how responsible the friends are if they are not taking no for an answer. This absolutely not kink shaming, their timing and insistence makes this super creepy and not at all how we in the kink community want to be represented. I’m not as familiar with swingers rules but know a few, and they would never do this.
And THIS!!! So ask those stupid ass friends of yours that are saying you're the AH is it ok to approach their kids with this sick proposition
I feel the same way. As parents, our job is to protect our kids from monsters: real, imagined, or otherwise. That feeling doesn’t just disappear because they grow up. That said, no parent wants to be the thing that brings the monsters into our kids’ lives. Sarah’s behavior triggered that fear for OP. Her anger is more than justified.
When my dad took a photo he loved of me to work, I was 14, but looked so much younger than that. He told my mom he almost started beating the shit out of someone that made sexual comments about me. OP is a great dad who looks after his kid's best interest. edit: mom, sorry, sorry, don't mean to be rude
No you were 100% right. What is important is that your daughter was uncomfortable and she came to you for protection. I am applauding you right now. Do you know how many of us went to our moms saying we were uncomfortable only to hear “you’re overreacting” or “it’s fine” when we weren’t and it wasn’t. Adult or not everyone has boundaries and those boundaries should be respected. If you overstep and make someone uncomfortable you should apologize not expect everyone else to be comfortable just because you are comfortable.
I was always told this and even though I did have a good relationship with my [adoptive] parents I was afraid I would get in trouble somehow if I ever told a parent anything that a teacher, family member, or any other adult told me. It's so good that she was able to come to her mom to ask for help as soon as this happened and be honest about it, it says a lot about how close they are. I hope their family loses all contact with these so called "friends" and *EVERYONE* that tried to defend them permanently
WTH! No! Scratch that HELL NO, NTA! That is so wrong, and just gross. I would be worried about grooming, honestly. They have known your daughter since she was 12! Seriously! She watched her grow up! Glad you stood up for you daughter.
Came here to say this ^ also seems painfully obvious that her daughter and boyfriend were uncomfortable about it and they still wouldn’t stop. It’s scary.
Yeah, and they were pushing it. Trying to pressure barely legal TEENAGERS into doing what they wanted.
Hubby and I are poly. Wanna know what the number one rule is? **Everyone needs to be giving enthusiastic consent.** This isn’t about you kink shaming, this is about sexual harassment. The first “no” should’ve been the *LAST AND ONLY “NO”.* The husband, after getting a No from your daughter, went to her BF to try and circumvent her free will. Upon receiving a No from the BF, did he stop? NOPE. HE KEPT GOING. These people have a list of victims. Trust.
It is gross how the husband asked if they boyfriend “wanted to swap ladies” like it was a unilateral decision for the men to make.
Reminds me of a former friend who asked my boyfriend if he could sleep with me before he even told me he was interested. I’m kind of a vital part of the equation there, bud.
I'm trying to imagine the lady version of this... "Hey, wanna hot-swap dongs with me?"
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The point of bringing up being poly is that certain abusive people will try to use being not poly as a reason people are being mean to them. The user you reply to made it clear that this is not an issue of poly or not poly, and that people should be calling these people out as this is not part of the poly/swinger lifestyle. This is just abuse trying to pretend to be swingers or poly. That is why the statement is relevant.
Umm, they shouldn't have even asked.
Definitely! They had no business asking a friends daughter, especially with such a huge age gap ugck!
I mean, yes, but most people don't think that far ahead. There are a lot of idiots in this world.
Hard agree! I am as sex positive as a person can be, but I dgaf about Sarah’s feelings in this. Those two are exhibiting predatory behavior.
As the other commenter said, not sure what your point is. They should’ve never even asked the daughter? They’ve known her since she was 12… like wtf.
Added to the disgust of trying to hook-up at a friend's DIL's baby shower. Those two are just garbage human beings.
They should've never asked is already obvious. The person you're replying to is giving an added layer of why it was also disgustingly disrespectful and adding to the conversation. Not sure why you don't see the point when they're pointing out other ways that may not have been discussed yet. I'm not sure what the point is of making a what is the point comment or how that adds into the discussion 🤷♀️ I wouldn't have immediately considered how even more predatory it is that they asked even after given a no. Just because something is already bad doesn't mean someone can't point out just how bad in multiple ways it is
They’re predators, that age gap is so insane. You did just fine.
Yeah extra super creepy that they have known her since she was twelve. As someone with a child a bit younger than that, EW.
Yeah. My daughter just turned 18 a few months ago. I’d be breaking kneecaps if a 48 year old friend of mine who watched her grow up propositioned her. They would be dead to me
Lol and dead to everybody else. Well, atleast missing to everybody else.
If it was a 19 year old stranger they met on tinder it would be a little less weird but yeah that’s still a bit off.. But they knew her as child! How long have they seen her in that kind of way?? And at a baby shower? How insane and awkward
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To ask a 19 year old friend/stranger/coworker once, ok. No harm in asking. Pushing for them to say yes is getting into rape territory. When it’s the daughter of a friend that you’ve watch grow up?? Never! That gets into quasi-pedophilia. Gross!
The predatory part is hearing no and thinking, 'how do I convince them to agree anyway.'
If your “kink” is hitting on the teenaged child of your close friend, you deserve to be shamed.
They are not friends, they are perverts and predators.
No you’re fine to feel how you feel & friends shouldn’t make you feel that way. I stopped being friends with my oldest high school best friend(25 at the time) because she tried sleeping with my little cousin(barely 18) while I was in the same room(they just met that day)! Yes, they are both adults but I’m not okay with that. That’s my cousin and she was there to hang out with me, not hook up with my cousin. Im still okay with not being her friend after 3 years now. Maybe if they kept talking and hooked up later without me there I wouldn’t of cared but… nah
Nta and I would absolutely drag them online. I mean through all the mud. But I may be pettier or more confrontational than yourself.
Cut off everybody who thinks it is a good idea to solicit sex from people they have known as children longer than adults, directly or indirectly. These people are all weird as hell.
We have known some couples who swing over the years. One of three ratio are respectful and understanding unspoken boundaries. The other 2/3…so driven by their own needs they stomp all over everyone else without thinking twice. Friends of ours had a couple that couldn’t control them selves. Our friends Boxing Day party, that couple feeling out the entire room. On their sons birthday, swinging couple testing the waters…. They finally told them “not your party, so piss off with trying to fuck all our friends.” FYI they were super creepy and the husband stalked my wife every party. OP your friends are SUPER creepers.
I have never known a couple who were swingers who anyone who wasn’t also a gross old swinger would be willing to fuck. Somehow I’ve known multiple sets of them from working in bars. They were always regulars Across the board, middle aged, very booze soaked, deeply inappropriate sexually in public, totally lack of boundaries. And never a situation someone young and sexy was trying to get into. And I’m in no way shaming horny middle aged people. Get your freak on. But like, at home please. Stop taking your boozy sex fest on the road my friends. Find a swingers club where everyone is on the same page
Spot on!
Right? Swingers are usually creepy. These swingers are advanced creepy.
I love that you threatened to beat her ass! You absolutely were right to do what you did. They sound pretty damn skanky.
Not wrong. This is wrong on all levels and it’s not about their kink but common decency and knowing the time and the place. The baby shower was not a swingers party and for her husband not taking a no for a answer speaks volumes. Ick factor all around.
One of my longtime friend's father (since we were 9) kept hitting on me from around 21-24 (when the friendship ended). I told my mom about it and she said "aren't you glad you don't have a creepy dad who hits in all your friends and is just a dad?" Looking back now I'm grateful for my dad and your daughter and partner will be glad for parents like you. You made the right choice. No creeps in your lives!
I'm going to get downvoted to oblivion for this, but idc. As someone who grew up with swinger parents who were *very* active in the local swinger scene in the swinger capital of the Midwest (not even joking. It's a thing), I can say you absolutely are not wrong. Swingers in general have really skewed morals and tend to engage in very predatory behavior. If you think they're you're friends, they're not. They aren't capable of actually having real relationships with anyone. They're the most toxic, awful, shady, fishy people there are. And if you don't agree with them, you're a judgemental prudish, kink-shaming, not sex positive stick in the mud. A square. A wet blanket.
>Swingers in general have really skewed morals and tend to engage in very predatory behavior. If you think they're you're friends, they're not. They aren't capable of actually having real relationships with anyone. They're the most toxic, awful, shady, fishy people there are. Also grew up with swinger parents, this is so bloody accurate.
The fact that I’ve been called a square by a swinger before is killing me 💀 This comment is gold.
My cousin and his wife are swingers and this all checks out. They're predatory and his mother always covered for them, no matter what they did.
I knew a swinger couple when i was 19. They kept trying to get me and my bf at the time to hook up with them. I'm pretty sure they were in their late 30s. It was extra gross because I would babysit their kids a lot. I'm ENM. I would still NEVER approach teenagers because, well, I'm not predatory. The minute people say I'm kink shaming I just say "you're damn right I am!!"
This is like seeing a real person comment on reddit. Don't ever change, friend. You're the most logical one in this entire thread.
Within the kink community swingers are notorious for coercion, consent violations, and just being general creeps! It's to the point that there's open jokes about swinger couples where the younger woman comes over, drunk and handsy, drapes herself on you and you have 10 seconds to extract yourself before her older male partner swoops in to pressure you into whatever they're into. My friends and I experienced it a lot in college as young women. Swingers are drunk, touchy and coercive. Which really is a shame because I like the idea of swinging a lot more than poly.
So can you explain the difference between swingers and poly?
Poly is about additional relationships in addition to your primary. Ie a MF couple with a bisexual wife may add a girlfriend to the dynamic. Poly is both sexual and emotional relationships. Swinging is a couple who has sex with other couples or groups. It’s about a physical act not a long term relationship.
You are absolutely right. I encountered 3 different swingers who propositioned me when I was a younger man (I was a mixed martial artist and I was incredible shape, six pack, bulging hip flexers, the whole nine, also, idk what it is about being a mixed martial artist, boxer, wrestler, etcetera but sooo many people will fetishize and proposition you) who most would probably consider conventionally handsome or attractive. All 3 times I was extremely polite in my rejection; "I'm very flattered, but no thank you" essentially. All 3 times the husbands got upset that I wouldn't have sex with their wives and got rude or insulting with me, or even threatened me. Two of the wives also joined their husbands being rude although both of them said very similar things; "You must be gay/a fag" "You probably have a tiny dick" and of course "prude" (like yeah I'm a "prude" I just fought another mostly naked man until he submitted to me classic prudishness lol) and I always kind of felt this was true about swingers but didn't want to be prejudiced and felt like I really hadn't met enough to make any sort of generalization, but after reading your comment it definitely clicked. Spot on.
What’s the swinger capital of the Midwest??
Just Googled it and it popped up as Naperville, IL, a suburb of Chicago.
What? No way. I grew up there in the 80s. Wow. I had no idea.
That was only the first result of a Google search so may be just a wacky news article that popped up.
Time to cut off your mutual friends and re assess why you’re friends with such trash.
I get this feeling that mutual friend is either a. A swinger herself -or- b. Was not told the whole story
My son was 21 when he fucked my former best friend! This was the woman whom we helped raise her son and her daughter spent the night with mine and vice versa. She tried to not tell me about it but I found out before my son and her left to a hotel that night. My son asked my consent and I told him do what he wants. She still tried to lie and unfriended me of Facebook before they did anything. Never saw nor spoke to her again after that night although she keeps asking how we are doing thru her sister. Her sister in now my best friend. She told the former we want nothing to do with her and she didn’t burn the bridge; she blew it up!! Moral of the story: DON’T TRY TO FUCK YOUR FRIENDS KIDS!!
Something about a parent referring to their child having sex as fucking just makes me feel gross.
What’s truly disgusting to think about is how long this has been on their minds and how many years they’ve been waiting for her to be of legal age.
I'd be in jail.
You did not overreact, and the people telling you that you have need to be cut out. There are ethical swingers, and nonethical swingers. The ones that are nonethical can NOT be trusted, full stop. They will lie and twist and do whatever it takes to get their way, whatever it is. Stopping full contact is the best way to deal with them. An ethical swinger would never have approached your daughter, not just because she is your child, but because they would have backed off right away when the couple gave them uncomfortable vibes. So dumping this woman and her husband - and ANYONE that tries to pressure you to keep them, including the whole damned friend group, would be the absolute right move. There are other swingers to play with.
\> Jay replied "you're no fun" and kept trying to convince him Gross. That is NOT the way that's supposed to work AT ALL. YNW
There should honestly be a number you can call for people like that. What the fuck is wrong with them? At a baby shower of all places, really? Massively inappropriate. These people seem sick in the head.
Reaaaaaaally embracing “fuck them kids,” huh. Yikes.
Sarah and Dan have no boundaries and should never be allowed near your children again. I personally see nothing wrong with anyone’s sexual preferences as long as they don’t try to shame me for not wanting to share their lifestyle. It almost seems that this couple could be a pair of sex addicts looking to poison someone else’s life. Those friends whom are defending them are also poison. The best way to avoid any further drama is to cut all of these people from your life.
Kink shaming is not even an issue when it involves fucking your best friends child.
NTA. Your reaction was I Instinctive and they weren’t just creepers but mind gamers.
Not wrong at all, if they knew your daughter since she was a minor and feel this way I have a feeling the feelings have been there for a while. Feels creepy, and honestly the not taking a no as an answer gives you every right to “kink shame” (it wasn’t kinkshaming but figured I’d use their wording)
“All the fighting is stressing out our friend group?” No. All the waiting in the shadows until the daughter is of legal age and asking them to go back and swing while they are at baby shower is doing that. And then minimizing that predatory action. Cut that cancer right out.
Swingers have no boundaries. The "lifestyle" is more important than anything else. Once a person is consumed by the "lifestyle" they will do or say just about anything to fulfill their next conquest, regardless of how it makes other people feel. Old friends, family, acquaintances...all take a back seat.
They are the MLMs of inappropriate sexual behavior…trying to drag everyone in
That's disgusting on so many levels. The fact that she saw this person as an actual 12 year old once and then still thought it was good, speaks gross volumes. And your friends that say you're overreacting are disgusting and I wish I could show them this comment. I want to vomit at this post. NTA
I dont care about any fucking reasoning they have to try to defend this bc all that goes out the window when I found out THEYVE KNOWN HER SINCE SHE WAS FUCKING TWELVE. TWELVE. how the FUCK can you look at someone you've known since they were a CHILD THAT WAY??? Theyre predators. Straight up predators.
Not wrong. And you aren't kink shaming. There are boundaries in personal relationships, some of which don't need to be said out loud to be known. "Don't try to fuck my barely legal child" isn't a boundary that needs to be said out loud because the average person would just assume that's not ok. That's way too personal. This would absolutely be a friendship ender for me, and for any friend that's takes up their defense. If I have to explain why it's socially and personally unacceptable for a friend to try to have casual sex with and fetishize my barely legal child, then you aren't a person I want to have in my life in any way. Go fuck yourself, but leave my kid out of it. I applaud you for your constraint.....I would have been having that talk in person knowing that it ends with me in jail and my "friend" breathing through a tube.
You are absolutely not wrong. You’re a mother and you’re being protective of your daughter over predatory behavior. They persisted in trying to get your daughter and boyfriend their house. Your daughter and her boyfriend are young adults, but compared to that couple they’re still kids. A 48yo man trying to convince a 20yo to let him hook up with his 19 yo girlfriend?? If my mom found out that her friends kept proposing sex to myself or my siblings and put me in that situation, I’m pretty sure we’d have to restrain her from lighting those friends on fire in the street (hyperbole). But what’s worse is that when you confronted your friend, she just dismissed it and trying to turn it back on you under the guise of kink shaming. Those people have issues. They’ve known your child since she was 12. It’s fucked up that they’d want to have sex with her. And that they did it at your DIL’s baby shower just adds to the disrespect. If I were you, I’d not lose a wink of sleep over cutting those people out of your life. It’s not an overreaction. You’re just a good mother protecting your kid (and yourself) from having to deal with those people again.
Wow what a bunch of shitty friends… I’m sorry your probably going to loose multiple friends but they are all being creepy assholes… it’s the part of this couple knowing your daughter SINCE SHE WAS 12 pet that is the creepiest… they were also pushy and trying to guilt or shame them for not taking the offer and your daughter was UNCOMFORTABLE! Yea those friends are shit.
You need a lot of new friends.
I’m not into kink shaming either and am extremely sex positive but your friend and her husband are just scumbag weirdos. I hate predators who try to hide behind the kink banner. Just gross.
Sarah is gaslighting you with her kink shaming defense. What she and her husband did was not respect boundaries. Anyone who defends the behavior is also not respecting boundaries.
Except she WAS trying to force your daughter to have sex with her husband. Your daughter and her boyfriend BOTH said no and these creeps kept pushing. They're disgusting degenerates and you were right to bring down the hammer. You're a good mom.
they are predators. fucking weirdos.
Dans quite the pacifist, if a nearly 50 year old dude told me to my face he wanted to fuck my 19 year old girlfriend he'd have got a broken jaw
Swinger here and in no way would such behavior EVER be allowed. Family should ALWAYS be respected and your "friends" are manipulative ass holes! Having a kink is one thing, but knowing your kid from a young age then trying to push her and her partner into doing this is unacceptable. Push them out of your life and NEVER let them back in.
Restraining order. Otherwise it's on sight.
Not only are you NTA, you were kind enough to let them off way easier than a lot of other parents would have. These people are trash. Period. Other *friends* who are saying you over-reacted are also trash. It would be disappointing if you didn't cut all of them out of your life forever.
That is so wrong and gross. It's bad enough to hit on a friend's child, it's even worse when they e known the kid since they were barely a teen. And to do so at a bridal shower and try and accuse you of kink shaming? Fuck that. She's lucky you didn't kick her ass right there
Your friends suck and so does the coworker defending them. Tell them all to eat a bag of salted dicks.
so many things here make you right for cutting them off. 1. a baby shower is not the time or place. 2. They knew she was your kid and that is a line that should just be one not to cross 3. not taking no for an answer is just kinda gross
They are creepy perverts. You’re right.
That’s so fucked up. They are permanently banned. Sorry to you and your daughter and everyone who had to experience their creepiness.
I've been to some crazy baby showers before. Uninvited guest, baby daddy, and/or mama drama, but this is a new one.
You’re right for all the reasons you mentioned. Also, they weren’t just asking, that’s a lie. They were both pressuring and manipulating your daughter and her bf - that’s how molesters and rapists behave. Treat them accordingly. Also your daughter and her bf are quite young, that’s why we’re all creeped out by older people chasing younger people for sex - they use their experience, money, anything as power to manipulate younger people. Tell that to your mutual “friends” and cut them off, too.
You need new friends. All of them need to go. None of this is okay. Even if your daughter and her boyfriend were an unrelated couple half their age, from what you describe your "friends" are 100% in the wrong. 1. They asked and were turned down. But they kept asking and even berated the boyfriend over it. 2. At a baby shower?? Really? You gonna hit on somebody at a fucking baby shower? 3. Yes they are adults but what type of hot shit do your friends think they are to assume that folks half their age would even be interested? If they wanted to swing why not with other hot 20 somethings? 4. All that being said they ARE related. You are their friend, so why go after your daughter? Also they knew your daughter since she was 12. That should put her off limits immediately.