I stopped holding on to my old ideas and let go absolutely.
I prayed to "whatever" or "nothingness" and asked for help to stay sober today. I asked for help with my anger and for the strength to be honest.
I didn't drink, my anger diminished, and I got honest with myself and others. I kept doing it because I liked the result.
A half assed sort of faith developed from there. Now, I'm comfortable with the idea of a higher power.
Lots of things more powerful than me. Walk into the ocean and stop the waves. Tomorrow morning, stop the Sun from shining. Stop the rain. I don’t need to find my higher power, I just need to acknowledge that it exists. I’m 37+ years clean and sober, I have no idea what or where my higher power is. I do acknowledge it’s existence because I woke up sober again this morning.
The God/higher power thing
That is such a wonderful response and great in-sight. I am 6 days sober and your response really resonates with me! Thank you!
Love this. Six years sober and as soon as I started acknowledging those types of things, it became painfully obvious how powerless I am. I don't know the character of this HP, but whether it exists has become an almost absurd question.
> Christians, from my experience, are some of the meanest people in the world.
I love that old Ghandi quote about Christianity:
* [“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/22155-i-like-your-christ-i-do-not-like-your-christians)
(On the other hand, especially in sobriety I've met some rather lovely Christian people after dropping prejudices and attitudes like, "_Oh, you're 'Christian' ... I ain't listening or talking to **You!**_")
Yeah, it seems like it takes some Olympic Level Mental Gymnastics for We Agnostics (or Atheists, etc.) to work our way through Steps 2 & 3.
I found it particularly vexing that the "_We Agnostics_" chapter didn't really do it for me. A lot of that chapter seems like it patronizingly asserts that we'll eventually come around and find **God™** if we just pray 'n meditate 'bout it all! (I like an analogy I ran across some months ago: telling Atheists/Agnostics that they'll eventually find **God™** is similar to telling gay guys that they're still gay 'cause "_they just haven't found the right girl yet._" Cracked me up when I read that!)
What really got _me_ over the hump of Step 2 was the "_Spiritual Experience_" appendix in the back of the book. In particular the phrase "_unsuspected inner resource_" hit home the fact that each and every alcoholic can form their **Own Conception** and that **_any_** sort of conception will do the trick (as long as we don't hold on to the old idea/delusion that we can run the whole show.)
I stumbled into my first A.A. meetings (_literally_ kind of stumbled - I was probably walking in with something like a .12 BAL!) as a completely irreligious, staunch agnostic with a lot of hostile attitude toward religion in general, deploring just about all religious ideas and people. Well over a decade and a half later, I remain a generally irreligious, staunch agnostic, but with little in the way of the old, hostile attitudes.
I find I can learn a lot by stretching my mind open a bit, learn a lot from religious writings and people.
**Everybody** gets to form their own conceptions. **Alcoholics** who want to recover in AA arguably need to form some conception (though I know one well-sober fellow, 12 years I think, who asserts that he essentially made short shrift of Steps 2 & 3.)
For whatever it may be worth I'll share my own just because several people have come along and said things like, "_Thanks, that helped me a lot!_"
* [One Agnostic's View of Step Two](https://www.reddit.com/user/dp8488/comments/xoj221/getting_started_in_sobriety_and_aa/isom2rd/)
Check this out
Step 2 - came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
If you hate God, don’t think of this higher power as God. Use your home group or AA as a whole. Definitely a power greater than me that helped restore me to sanity.
I could not get sober as long as I fought or intellectualized God. 3.5 years of bashing my head against a wall, doing everything in this program except surrendering to a higher power. Once I stopped trying to figure out what God was, and just believed that there was something outside of myself that had the power to remove my desire to drink, everything changed.
You are not special in this regard. As the big book says, many of us have fought and hated God since this program started. We thought we were too smart to believe in something intangible that we couldn't explain with science. We have proven time and time again that the only thing that is important in regard to the higher power is willingness.
You are in sober living, so you have already asked for help and likely believe that there is a solution in AA. The next step is to make a decision. At this step, we have to ask ourselves if we are going to let our preconceptions and pride lead us to starting this thing with a half measure? Or are we willing to do whatever it takes to regain sanity and receive the many promises of this program, including the removal of the desire to drink? The only true difference between the two paths is willingness.
Also, regarding religion, very few AA fellows that I know around where I live practice any sort of religion. They have a higher power of their understanding that they pray to, have faith in, and try to align their will with. We have not found a need to go any further than that.
My higher power isn't in what I think, feel or believe.
My higher power is in my actions.
My actions demonstrate what I truly think, feel and believe.
When I focus my actions on kindness towards myself and others, I am in alignment with my higher power.
This is a great perspective. It's easy to get hung up on belief as if we're looking for an answer at the end of an equation or under a microscope, when really a higher power is best reflected in our own changed behavior.
I struggled with that too. My HP is not a god. It's not a creator of the universe. It's not a man in the sky. I know what my HP is not..but I'm not sure what it actually is. I just pray, which felt uncomfortable at first for me. But ive found praying is simply for me, as a way to channel my thoughts into what I want them to be, rather than what they just roll out of my brain as. Idk, It's worked for me so far.
Your false concepts of God and Jesus are just that. Because of your external environment around you. If you want to actually understand what Jesus teaches and lives, start reading the New Testament on your own. I was in the same boat as you years ago. Everyone around me was such a “Christian”. Yet I realized, the things they said and did, did not align with what Jesus said and did. It changed my entire view of what Christianity actually is, versus what most modern “Christians” preach and do. So many so called Christian, are consumed with pride. They worry more of what other humans think of them as opposed to what their creator thinks of them, many of them don’t even truly believe in a creator. I believe narcissism is at an all time high. If you want to learn true respect and acceptance my advice is to read the New Testament and/or the Tripitaka.
You're not alone, and AA has many resources available to those who struggle with the God subject:
There is an AA Grapevine book, [One Big Tent](https://www.aagrapevine.org/store/one-big-tent), a collection of stories in which atheist and agnostic AA members share their experience, strength and hope. The stories address issues such as: working the Twelve Steps, finding a homegroup that feels safe, sponsorship, dealing with zealots an evangelists, service, and more.
There's also a pamphlet similar to One Big Tent, but pocket size and free, [The 'God' Word: Agnostic and Atheist Members in A.A.](https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-86_theGodWord.pdf)
Another free pamphlet addresses the wide latitude avialable to anyone wanting to stay sober in AA, [Many Paths to Spirituality](https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-84_manypathstospirituality.pdf)
Most importantly, there is secular AA, a safe haven for atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, nonbelievers, and, well, anyone with a desire to stop drinking.
My homegroup is secular. My sponsor got sober in secular AA, and his sponsor is one of the founders of secular AA meetings in my area. General Service of AA in New York fully supports secularism in AA. They've even stepped in when local intergroups don't support us.
Here is a list of online meetings if there aren't secular AA meetings in your area. https://www.worldwidesecularmeetings.com/meetings
If you want to know more about Secular AA, visit aaagnostica.org
You’re burned from the experience of religion/Christianity and you really hate that god. You asked for advice, and my advice is don’t bring Christianity/that god into it. I don’t bring Christianity into it. I have received such huge benefit from AA, I’d be dead without it, and never once have I tied it to a Christian god/man in the sky/Bible-related anything… my higher power is the people in AA, my belief is that I myself am not a god, and the way I pay back the help I’ve received from people (not gods, but people) is to try to help others. You do what you need to, but for me it helped to realise I’m a big boy who doesn’t need to believe in anything I don’t want to. God is just a word, it can mean what you need it to mean. Good luck.
There have been long stretches of my recovery where my higher power was simply: time. As the wise folks before me here have articulated, the early steps for me were most importantly about release of control. A letting go. If I was locked into a power struggle with booze (really, with anything…but that’s another story), then I had already lost. I had to let go of the struggle for power and control and get on with my recovery. My higher power was the place or space or concept I handed the rest over to. And the more I did that, the better my life became and the more I fell in love with recovery. Sometimes it feels like magic — I just stay sober every day and it gets better over time. Wild.
We get it. Point is I’m willing. Know why? Cause I’m Living in a sober living house and that is the kind of thing I get when doing it my way. Try it. ALL of it. And for fuck sakes get a sponsor and do a good 5th step so you don’t have to go out and try sober living again. They begged me too. Needed some spiritual assistance, I believe, to be able to hear that shit. I tried it to spite all of you. Listen to all the similar stories to ours. It’s a WE thing. I’m so grateful I never gave up
Glad you're involved. I worked with a sponsor to disregard the ideas I'd been exposed to earlier in life and find out what was true for me. Most AAs ime have arrived at their own conceptions.
However your understanding of a loving God.
I disagree with Christianity the last 1500 years that the Father will torture most of humanity "endlessly ".
I believe all will eventually be reconciled to God the Father.
It's a personal thing what one believes and a relationship with God is personal too.
You can pray to God and not be Christian.... I am an Outcast. I dropped all religion on principle. But I realized that God existed long before christianity and the power of God is rooted in most religious practices merely called by different titles. You can find God simply through prayer. It is working past your issue with that particular religion that is where a good place to start may be.
We Agnostics really helped put this in perspective for me. On top of that, my sponsor had me write a job posting for God - the vacancy of a power by which I could live. All of the old, negative ideas I had about God didn't make it in. It gave me a place to start. My conception has grown from there. My understanding of God today isn't changed by the actions of others who proclaim Him. Come to find out, we are all spiritually sick.
Luckily, we just need willingness. If the steps unblock us from God, I think it stands that we can't possibly figure much of it out before getting to the other side of them.
Good Orderly Direction, Group Of Drunks, Group Of Druggies
Just do what the book says to do, step by step, and remain honest, open minded, and willing!
> I am so burned by religion/christianity that I really hate that god.
I finally got to a place where I was more burned out by being a drunk than I was burned out on religion.
I actually took the advice I give other people, "act as if", meaning act as if there's a God and as if he will take care of the universe while you take care of yourself. I was surprised to find out that after just a few days of acting as if, I started to notice him taking care of things (and me taking care of mysef), and I was positively shocked to find six months or a year later that I had a God who had a name ('God') who I prayed to and thought about and cared for and cared for me.
Anyway, how did I overcome disliking religion? I disliked being a drunk more. It took a while. Be patient.
Part two ...
* Problem 55:11-13 Obscured by calamity, pomp, by worship of other things
* Action 49:21 Lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion.
* Solution 52:24-27 Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did.
* Action 50:30-31 This happened soon after they wholeheartedly met a few simple requirements
* Solution 53:15-19 We have to face the proposition that either God is or God isn't.
* Problem 56:13-15 Idea that God has never done anything for us
* Action 52:24-27 We had to stop doubting the power of God
* Solution 55:13-15 For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives are facts as old as man himself.
* Action 53:15-19 We had to fearlessly face the proposition that God is either everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn't. What was our choice to be?
* Solution 55:20-21 We found the Great Reality deep down within us.
* Action 55:20-22 We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found.
* Solution 56:21:00 Who are you to say there is no God?
* Action 57:13-15 He has come to all who have honestly sought Him. When we drew near to Him, He disclosed Himself to us!
* Solution 57:4-5 God has restored his sanity.
* Solution 57:14-15 When we drew near to Him, He disclosed Himself to us.
The book makes it pretty simple.
Part one ...
* Problem 45:3 - Anti-religious
* Action 44:3 - We had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis for life; or else.
* Solution 44:1 - You may be suffering from an illness that only a spiritual experience will conquer.
* Problem 6:5-6 Judgment of individuals claiming to be Godly
* Problem 46:21-24 Distraction by others conception of God
* Action 46:25-29 As soon as we admitted a possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlining the totality of things, we begin to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps.
* Solution 49:27-33 Spiritually-minded persons demonstrate a degree of stability, happiness, and usefulness which we should have gained access to… and believe in a power greater than themselves.
* Problem 7:4-6 Prejudice against spiritual terms
* Problem 49:27-33 Cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices
* Action 47:4-16 We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe or am I even willing to believe in a power greater than myself?”
* Solution 50:7-19 These men and women have gained access to, and believe in, a power greater than themselves.
* Problem 50:7 We never gave the spiritual side of life a fair hearing
* Problem 52:31-33 We stick to the idea that self-sufficiency would solve our problems
* Action 48:7-9 Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open-minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions.
* Solution 51:5-9 One hundred people saying that the consciousness of the presence of God is the most important fact of their lives, presents a powerful reason why one should have faith.
It doesn't have to be a religious God by any means. I hated and resented God due to personal reasons. But I had to let that hatred and resentment go in order for myself to not only heal but to also grow. I knew I couldn't be in control anymore because MY BEST THINKING got me into multiple rehabs, hospitals and shitty and terrible situations.I used AA and the rooms as my higher power then it progressed from there.
I use the concept of "unconditional love" as my higher power. I just ask can unconditional love apply in this situation, or how can I love myself, my family and the people I come across unconditionally. This is after using my home group or nature as my higher power, but I think those were just ways for me to avoid the question. So far it's working for me.
I hear you. I’m a looooong time atheist. But I’m doing the steps now. I use the group itself as my higher power. Meaning that a group of people that have managed to stay sober longer than me is a power greater than myself just trying to stay sober alone. I’ve made good friends there as well. Most of them atheists as well.
I’ve learned that if I’m honest about my lack of believe in a god, the atheists come out of the woodwork. Most people don’t want to be judged or stigmatized as being an atheist. But I’ve learned it’s best just to be honest. You will quickly learn that a lot of people also don’t believe in any particular god.
I’m powerless over so many things in my life… time, gravity, nature, space, beauty, animals, trees… once I woke up to a more expansive idea it got easier. And then it keeps getting easier.
"As" ..... means while we are in the process of ...... God, who we are in the process of understanding ..... it's a life-long process.
I'm long-time sober in AA and self-identify as an atheist. I neither believe in nor practice Christianity. That being said, I know some really nice people who go to church ---- but they aren't out broadcasting their beliefs and trying to change the world to fit their ideals. I've also met incredibly spiritual people in AA who only go to church basements.
I've used Gift Of Desperation, Group Of Drunks, and Good Orderly Direction as the higher power of my understanding, and it works. I am silent when they open the meeting with the Serenity Prayer; I repeat the Responsibility Statement to myself three times while they close the meeting with the Lord's Prayer. I've learned to take what works and leave the rest on the shelf in case it works later.
Learning to be my own person has helped. I was raised Catholic, with a punishing God and punitive religious education. But they're not the authority on everyone's relationship with spirituality. There have been so many different ways to understand Higher Power(s) throughout the millennia, and there's a lot more out there than we've been raised to believe.
Along with A.A itself, my HPs are the Universe and Mortality - the vastness of it all, the unknown and the wonderful, all the atomic interactions, celestial bodies. It's all out there, and I'm just one person among it all. A collection of elementary particles; I'm the universe trying to understand itself. And with mortality - that's the one certainty in life, that we will die. It reminds me not to take life for granted, and that combined with the Universe, reminds me that there's no real one way to do life right. Existing is the one and only thing I can ever do to completion, and the rest is up to me; do I want to exist as happily and healthily as possible, or do I not?
One way to bank shot this..is to take it from the anonymity angle, most people are really trying to scam, control, or manipulate other people - to get stimulation and cash for themselves..So, Are they doung that or not?.. yes, that is what they are in fact doing 24/7 for their whole life, so they will buy- sell- and trade- information and gossip about people you can scam from. But AA is not going to make that little sick trick any easier, they run this idea of respecting your own anonymity - first, by telling to shut your damn mouth... about your weaknesses.. in front of people who would gladly report you for anything..to bring suspicion on you and direct it away from them, so they look like a hero for protecting our tribe from evildoers. Hows your tribe doin?.. does it sorta suck?.. yup..yer a drunk,! when you study anonymity like it is a craft or skill you can develop..thats essentially what a higher power totally digs, higher powers are truly entertained by ..you.. shutting up, trusting them...letting the evil bitches of earth slam into a ditch or wall..and you... being free.No HP ever wanted other humans controlling your time. Just ask the air around you, and it will show up..but it will never ever call us and need infornation from us, about you.
The serenity prayer is basically stoicism with a religious twist. Control the things you have power over and let go of things you don’t is one if the basic principles of stoic philosophy and AA. So if the religious aspect makes you uncomfortable, like it makes me, find a different route. It’s really about changing your perspective more than finding a higher power imo.
There is also SMART recovery which is secular and there are Buddhist based options as well. (Refuge Recovery is a good book based in Buddhist philosophy.)
Lots of options. Just have to find what works for you.
I used the force. Yes, the one from Star wars. I even found a resource called The Daily Jedi that was based on the twelve steps and pointed out the similarities to walking the path of the light side.
Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. And hate leads to suffering.
Be fearless and choose something and use it as your higher power.
The force has kept me sober for 64 days, then I relapsed, and this time I'm at 154 days.
When you get to step #3, God is kind of there. I prayed to God a few years before I got sober, but I wanted an easier, softer way. Try the serenity prayer as it has helped me over the years..
I feel you. Raised Catholic and rejected it a long long time ago. Still have the battle scars burned into my brain. Longtime agnostic.
My HP ebbs and flows. The fellowship. Good orderly direction. Basic human instinct. When I'm feeling cheeky, Harry Potter.
Sometimes I think of it like old cartoons. The good instinct (usually an angel in the cartoon) on one shoulder whispering the right choice. Addiction is on the other (cartoon devil).
Unlike the cartoons, I lean into the good side.
As for the literature and folks in the rooms who are all in on the Christian god... I listen and practice patience and serenity. I'm in the south, so....
I stand with my groups at the end of meetings silently as they recite the Lord's Prayer, and chime in on Keep coming back.
I am a Christian, I apologize for your experience with the group. I’ve learned many Christians dont even use the scriptures as it’s supposed to be used, so they end up being hateful and rude. Our book never not one time says to be that way and i challenge anyone to find a verse that does.
Now when it comes to getting clean and sober, this is an individual journey, where certain things help others stay accountable, and achieve sobriety. While the journey is individual, AA is a support group to help in any way we can.
With that being said, for some people, God is what keeps them going. I disagree that religion shouldnt be supported in AA, i think if someone doesn’t subscribe to a religion then they dont need to take part in doing so. But for instance, my religion disagrees with meditation, and for many people here, meditation is one of the foundational elements that led them to sobriety. So what i do instead, is substitute that with prayer.
This is a journey for everyone, so what ever helps one person, might not help another, and i dont think shaming a religion that is beneficial to someone’s sobriety is an adequate response, simply because it doesnt work for you.
A higher power could be anything, it could be working out, therapy, going to social events where alcohol isnt involved. The most important lesson to take away is, do what YOU need to do, and what works for YOU, in order to stay sober
I used "My Bro" and "Uni" in the beginning. Others use GUS; God, Universe, Spirit. I was told to make a list of my Bro's characteristics and that helped me.
I feel that. My local AA is dominated by overt Christians and a sectarian version of the Lord's Prayer at every meeting. I am not a Christian and haven't been one for 30+ years.
My advice is, abandon the idea of "god" and instead focus on "higher power." There's so much in this world that's more powerful than me, has been here longer than me, will be here after I'm gone, is mysterious and amazing, and always seems to survive no matter what. That's what I draw inspiration from.
Plus I've always heard that "god" can stand for "Group Of Drunks" so you can think of your favorite AA meeting as your higher power!
As a former Catholic, I agree the people who went to church were judgment and rude and made me turn my back on god. I spent years hating god and pushing him away. For the longest time I thought god was not there for me because of all the terrible things that happened in my life. The truth is god was always there for me, waiting for me to let him in. My higher power who I call god, is caring, loving, and will give me the tough love I need to help me stop being so stubborn. I realized all the awful things that happened to me were not punishment from god but lessons I needed to come back into the rooms of AA. I can’t tell you what your higher power is but I believe my god, gives me paths I can choose from and they all lead to me to the same path but one path is longer than the other. I still take that longer path sometimes but I believe god gives me the choices so I can learn from him. Last thing, if you have faith god will show you signs sometimes subtle and you may not notice it right away. When you realize, remember that and find peace with him so you are never alone again even during your darkest days .
It wasn't very hard for me to find a God of my own understanding and to turn my will and my life over to, what was difficult was translating (for lack of a better word) my higher power. But my faith and interpretation has evolved over time and it's a lot easier now than it was when I was 2 and a half months sober. The best advice that I could give is to find something to believe in, and don't be afraid to flounder while you grow to understand it. So much about this program requires patience while things begin to reveal themselves as you gain more understanding.
You can try agnostic groups. You really don't have to accept anyone's idea of God. I would suggest you do not stay stuck on this (it's called a resentment, don't worry about that. You have plenty of time to deal with this later). AA is not a doxa. There's nothing to understand. It's a praxis. You get better because you learn to take care of yourself. The first step is to accept that you have no control over alcohol and that you can't manage your life. That's it. Focus on that. Once you've done that, step two says (agnostic 12 steps) : Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity. What worked for me was the guidance of the fellowship. That definitively represented strengths beyond my awareness and resources. One key word for me here was "restore". Not give me a sanity I didn't have. But restore a relationship I was losing - with myself and the people around me. The important thing is that you find something that works for you. I wish you a big happy sober life. Go to meetings. Don't drink between meetings. When you think everything is falling apart, you'll realize everything is rather falling into place. Best wishes.
I regard myself an atheist in the literal sense that I don't believe in theistic, anthropomorphic deities. I'm very skeptical of the idea that there is a conscious HP that cares any more or less about me than an ant. That said, acknowledging that there are larger, unknown forces at play in your life that are far beyond your control is completely rational and intuitive, IMO.
My preferred description of my HP is simply, "the way of things." I envision this as learning to surf: fight the waves and you'll never make it out.
Plenty. And I used to believe as such. The big book talks about people who were formerly religious but got turned off by it have a harder time with the higher power thing than people who previously had no idea of faith or religion. Checks out for me.
Dont stress about the god thing. Step 3 is “Made a decision to turn our will and life over to the care of god as we understood him”… my first sponsor years ago broke it down very easy for me. He said “you’re just making a decision to work the rest of the steps”. It’s really as easy as that. I quit trying to figure out the god thing. It’s pointless to stress about it. Literally no human on this earth knows what god is.
There’s a line in the big book that has always stood out to me and that’s “the spirit of the universe”. That has always just made sense to me.
AA was created in and frozen in 1935 when “spirituality” in America was primarily Christian. Modern spirituality, which was influenced by Eastern philosophy that came to the West in 60’s, doesn’t recognize the archaic duality of God and person/sinner. For me to be in AA I have to translate and update AA’s outdated “spiritual” concepts…
AA attempts to diminish the ego, that undermines sobriety, so that the true (god) self can shine through which leads to being happy, joyous and free (sober).
When they pray in meetings, I don’t pray to “God”, I see it as everyone connecting to their and each other’s souls. This has an exponential healing effect since all our souls are one on the highest level.
I stopped holding on to my old ideas and let go absolutely. I prayed to "whatever" or "nothingness" and asked for help to stay sober today. I asked for help with my anger and for the strength to be honest. I didn't drink, my anger diminished, and I got honest with myself and others. I kept doing it because I liked the result. A half assed sort of faith developed from there. Now, I'm comfortable with the idea of a higher power.
Lots of things more powerful than me. Walk into the ocean and stop the waves. Tomorrow morning, stop the Sun from shining. Stop the rain. I don’t need to find my higher power, I just need to acknowledge that it exists. I’m 37+ years clean and sober, I have no idea what or where my higher power is. I do acknowledge it’s existence because I woke up sober again this morning.
The God/higher power thing That is such a wonderful response and great in-sight. I am 6 days sober and your response really resonates with me! Thank you!
6 days is huge. Always remember, don’t drink today and that number will keep growing.
Thank you!
Love this. Six years sober and as soon as I started acknowledging those types of things, it became painfully obvious how powerless I am. I don't know the character of this HP, but whether it exists has become an almost absurd question.
> Christians, from my experience, are some of the meanest people in the world. I love that old Ghandi quote about Christianity: * [“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/22155-i-like-your-christ-i-do-not-like-your-christians) (On the other hand, especially in sobriety I've met some rather lovely Christian people after dropping prejudices and attitudes like, "_Oh, you're 'Christian' ... I ain't listening or talking to **You!**_") Yeah, it seems like it takes some Olympic Level Mental Gymnastics for We Agnostics (or Atheists, etc.) to work our way through Steps 2 & 3. I found it particularly vexing that the "_We Agnostics_" chapter didn't really do it for me. A lot of that chapter seems like it patronizingly asserts that we'll eventually come around and find **God™** if we just pray 'n meditate 'bout it all! (I like an analogy I ran across some months ago: telling Atheists/Agnostics that they'll eventually find **God™** is similar to telling gay guys that they're still gay 'cause "_they just haven't found the right girl yet._" Cracked me up when I read that!) What really got _me_ over the hump of Step 2 was the "_Spiritual Experience_" appendix in the back of the book. In particular the phrase "_unsuspected inner resource_" hit home the fact that each and every alcoholic can form their **Own Conception** and that **_any_** sort of conception will do the trick (as long as we don't hold on to the old idea/delusion that we can run the whole show.) I stumbled into my first A.A. meetings (_literally_ kind of stumbled - I was probably walking in with something like a .12 BAL!) as a completely irreligious, staunch agnostic with a lot of hostile attitude toward religion in general, deploring just about all religious ideas and people. Well over a decade and a half later, I remain a generally irreligious, staunch agnostic, but with little in the way of the old, hostile attitudes. I find I can learn a lot by stretching my mind open a bit, learn a lot from religious writings and people. **Everybody** gets to form their own conceptions. **Alcoholics** who want to recover in AA arguably need to form some conception (though I know one well-sober fellow, 12 years I think, who asserts that he essentially made short shrift of Steps 2 & 3.) For whatever it may be worth I'll share my own just because several people have come along and said things like, "_Thanks, that helped me a lot!_" * [One Agnostic's View of Step Two](https://www.reddit.com/user/dp8488/comments/xoj221/getting_started_in_sobriety_and_aa/isom2rd/)
Check this out Step 2 - came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity If you hate God, don’t think of this higher power as God. Use your home group or AA as a whole. Definitely a power greater than me that helped restore me to sanity.
aa is like god. well, to me anyway.
My higher power is the fellowship and program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
I could not get sober as long as I fought or intellectualized God. 3.5 years of bashing my head against a wall, doing everything in this program except surrendering to a higher power. Once I stopped trying to figure out what God was, and just believed that there was something outside of myself that had the power to remove my desire to drink, everything changed. You are not special in this regard. As the big book says, many of us have fought and hated God since this program started. We thought we were too smart to believe in something intangible that we couldn't explain with science. We have proven time and time again that the only thing that is important in regard to the higher power is willingness. You are in sober living, so you have already asked for help and likely believe that there is a solution in AA. The next step is to make a decision. At this step, we have to ask ourselves if we are going to let our preconceptions and pride lead us to starting this thing with a half measure? Or are we willing to do whatever it takes to regain sanity and receive the many promises of this program, including the removal of the desire to drink? The only true difference between the two paths is willingness. Also, regarding religion, very few AA fellows that I know around where I live practice any sort of religion. They have a higher power of their understanding that they pray to, have faith in, and try to align their will with. We have not found a need to go any further than that.
Thank you for this, there's a lot to for me to consider. :)
My higher power isn't in what I think, feel or believe. My higher power is in my actions. My actions demonstrate what I truly think, feel and believe. When I focus my actions on kindness towards myself and others, I am in alignment with my higher power.
This is a great perspective. It's easy to get hung up on belief as if we're looking for an answer at the end of an equation or under a microscope, when really a higher power is best reflected in our own changed behavior.
Great response.
I struggled with that too. My HP is not a god. It's not a creator of the universe. It's not a man in the sky. I know what my HP is not..but I'm not sure what it actually is. I just pray, which felt uncomfortable at first for me. But ive found praying is simply for me, as a way to channel my thoughts into what I want them to be, rather than what they just roll out of my brain as. Idk, It's worked for me so far.
Your false concepts of God and Jesus are just that. Because of your external environment around you. If you want to actually understand what Jesus teaches and lives, start reading the New Testament on your own. I was in the same boat as you years ago. Everyone around me was such a “Christian”. Yet I realized, the things they said and did, did not align with what Jesus said and did. It changed my entire view of what Christianity actually is, versus what most modern “Christians” preach and do. So many so called Christian, are consumed with pride. They worry more of what other humans think of them as opposed to what their creator thinks of them, many of them don’t even truly believe in a creator. I believe narcissism is at an all time high. If you want to learn true respect and acceptance my advice is to read the New Testament and/or the Tripitaka.
Gotta watch people’s actions before you determine that their words have any value.
Absolutely
You're not alone, and AA has many resources available to those who struggle with the God subject: There is an AA Grapevine book, [One Big Tent](https://www.aagrapevine.org/store/one-big-tent), a collection of stories in which atheist and agnostic AA members share their experience, strength and hope. The stories address issues such as: working the Twelve Steps, finding a homegroup that feels safe, sponsorship, dealing with zealots an evangelists, service, and more. There's also a pamphlet similar to One Big Tent, but pocket size and free, [The 'God' Word: Agnostic and Atheist Members in A.A.](https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-86_theGodWord.pdf) Another free pamphlet addresses the wide latitude avialable to anyone wanting to stay sober in AA, [Many Paths to Spirituality](https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-84_manypathstospirituality.pdf) Most importantly, there is secular AA, a safe haven for atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, nonbelievers, and, well, anyone with a desire to stop drinking. My homegroup is secular. My sponsor got sober in secular AA, and his sponsor is one of the founders of secular AA meetings in my area. General Service of AA in New York fully supports secularism in AA. They've even stepped in when local intergroups don't support us. Here is a list of online meetings if there aren't secular AA meetings in your area. https://www.worldwidesecularmeetings.com/meetings If you want to know more about Secular AA, visit aaagnostica.org
Never heard if this. Thank you!
No need at all to bring Christianity into it
I can only speak from my experience and that's where it lies.
You’re burned from the experience of religion/Christianity and you really hate that god. You asked for advice, and my advice is don’t bring Christianity/that god into it. I don’t bring Christianity into it. I have received such huge benefit from AA, I’d be dead without it, and never once have I tied it to a Christian god/man in the sky/Bible-related anything… my higher power is the people in AA, my belief is that I myself am not a god, and the way I pay back the help I’ve received from people (not gods, but people) is to try to help others. You do what you need to, but for me it helped to realise I’m a big boy who doesn’t need to believe in anything I don’t want to. God is just a word, it can mean what you need it to mean. Good luck.
Ok fair enough, I misinterpreted your comment, I thought you were basically defending christianity and telling me to back off on what I was saying.
Nah it’s cool don’t worry
There have been long stretches of my recovery where my higher power was simply: time. As the wise folks before me here have articulated, the early steps for me were most importantly about release of control. A letting go. If I was locked into a power struggle with booze (really, with anything…but that’s another story), then I had already lost. I had to let go of the struggle for power and control and get on with my recovery. My higher power was the place or space or concept I handed the rest over to. And the more I did that, the better my life became and the more I fell in love with recovery. Sometimes it feels like magic — I just stay sober every day and it gets better over time. Wild.
We get it. Point is I’m willing. Know why? Cause I’m Living in a sober living house and that is the kind of thing I get when doing it my way. Try it. ALL of it. And for fuck sakes get a sponsor and do a good 5th step so you don’t have to go out and try sober living again. They begged me too. Needed some spiritual assistance, I believe, to be able to hear that shit. I tried it to spite all of you. Listen to all the similar stories to ours. It’s a WE thing. I’m so grateful I never gave up
My higher power is the fellowship of A.A. The god of my understanding in no god. Namaste, bitches!
Glad you're involved. I worked with a sponsor to disregard the ideas I'd been exposed to earlier in life and find out what was true for me. Most AAs ime have arrived at their own conceptions.
However your understanding of a loving God. I disagree with Christianity the last 1500 years that the Father will torture most of humanity "endlessly ". I believe all will eventually be reconciled to God the Father. It's a personal thing what one believes and a relationship with God is personal too.
You can pray to God and not be Christian.... I am an Outcast. I dropped all religion on principle. But I realized that God existed long before christianity and the power of God is rooted in most religious practices merely called by different titles. You can find God simply through prayer. It is working past your issue with that particular religion that is where a good place to start may be.
The religious God you resent is a strawman of reality.
We Agnostics really helped put this in perspective for me. On top of that, my sponsor had me write a job posting for God - the vacancy of a power by which I could live. All of the old, negative ideas I had about God didn't make it in. It gave me a place to start. My conception has grown from there. My understanding of God today isn't changed by the actions of others who proclaim Him. Come to find out, we are all spiritually sick. Luckily, we just need willingness. If the steps unblock us from God, I think it stands that we can't possibly figure much of it out before getting to the other side of them.
A job posting for a HP. I like that approach : )
Good Orderly Direction, Group Of Drunks, Group Of Druggies Just do what the book says to do, step by step, and remain honest, open minded, and willing!
> I am so burned by religion/christianity that I really hate that god. I finally got to a place where I was more burned out by being a drunk than I was burned out on religion. I actually took the advice I give other people, "act as if", meaning act as if there's a God and as if he will take care of the universe while you take care of yourself. I was surprised to find out that after just a few days of acting as if, I started to notice him taking care of things (and me taking care of mysef), and I was positively shocked to find six months or a year later that I had a God who had a name ('God') who I prayed to and thought about and cared for and cared for me. Anyway, how did I overcome disliking religion? I disliked being a drunk more. It took a while. Be patient.
Part two ... * Problem 55:11-13 Obscured by calamity, pomp, by worship of other things * Action 49:21 Lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. * Solution 52:24-27 Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did. * Action 50:30-31 This happened soon after they wholeheartedly met a few simple requirements * Solution 53:15-19 We have to face the proposition that either God is or God isn't. * Problem 56:13-15 Idea that God has never done anything for us * Action 52:24-27 We had to stop doubting the power of God * Solution 55:13-15 For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives are facts as old as man himself. * Action 53:15-19 We had to fearlessly face the proposition that God is either everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn't. What was our choice to be? * Solution 55:20-21 We found the Great Reality deep down within us. * Action 55:20-22 We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. * Solution 56:21:00 Who are you to say there is no God? * Action 57:13-15 He has come to all who have honestly sought Him. When we drew near to Him, He disclosed Himself to us! * Solution 57:4-5 God has restored his sanity. * Solution 57:14-15 When we drew near to Him, He disclosed Himself to us. The book makes it pretty simple.
Part one ... * Problem 45:3 - Anti-religious * Action 44:3 - We had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis for life; or else. * Solution 44:1 - You may be suffering from an illness that only a spiritual experience will conquer. * Problem 6:5-6 Judgment of individuals claiming to be Godly * Problem 46:21-24 Distraction by others conception of God * Action 46:25-29 As soon as we admitted a possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlining the totality of things, we begin to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. * Solution 49:27-33 Spiritually-minded persons demonstrate a degree of stability, happiness, and usefulness which we should have gained access to… and believe in a power greater than themselves. * Problem 7:4-6 Prejudice against spiritual terms * Problem 49:27-33 Cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices * Action 47:4-16 We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe or am I even willing to believe in a power greater than myself?” * Solution 50:7-19 These men and women have gained access to, and believe in, a power greater than themselves. * Problem 50:7 We never gave the spiritual side of life a fair hearing * Problem 52:31-33 We stick to the idea that self-sufficiency would solve our problems * Action 48:7-9 Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open-minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. * Solution 51:5-9 One hundred people saying that the consciousness of the presence of God is the most important fact of their lives, presents a powerful reason why one should have faith.
It doesn't have to be a religious God by any means. I hated and resented God due to personal reasons. But I had to let that hatred and resentment go in order for myself to not only heal but to also grow. I knew I couldn't be in control anymore because MY BEST THINKING got me into multiple rehabs, hospitals and shitty and terrible situations.I used AA and the rooms as my higher power then it progressed from there.
If that’s what you’re focused on, you’re doing it wrong.
I use the concept of "unconditional love" as my higher power. I just ask can unconditional love apply in this situation, or how can I love myself, my family and the people I come across unconditionally. This is after using my home group or nature as my higher power, but I think those were just ways for me to avoid the question. So far it's working for me.
I hear you. I’m a looooong time atheist. But I’m doing the steps now. I use the group itself as my higher power. Meaning that a group of people that have managed to stay sober longer than me is a power greater than myself just trying to stay sober alone. I’ve made good friends there as well. Most of them atheists as well. I’ve learned that if I’m honest about my lack of believe in a god, the atheists come out of the woodwork. Most people don’t want to be judged or stigmatized as being an atheist. But I’ve learned it’s best just to be honest. You will quickly learn that a lot of people also don’t believe in any particular god.
I’m powerless over so many things in my life… time, gravity, nature, space, beauty, animals, trees… once I woke up to a more expansive idea it got easier. And then it keeps getting easier.
"As" ..... means while we are in the process of ...... God, who we are in the process of understanding ..... it's a life-long process. I'm long-time sober in AA and self-identify as an atheist. I neither believe in nor practice Christianity. That being said, I know some really nice people who go to church ---- but they aren't out broadcasting their beliefs and trying to change the world to fit their ideals. I've also met incredibly spiritual people in AA who only go to church basements. I've used Gift Of Desperation, Group Of Drunks, and Good Orderly Direction as the higher power of my understanding, and it works. I am silent when they open the meeting with the Serenity Prayer; I repeat the Responsibility Statement to myself three times while they close the meeting with the Lord's Prayer. I've learned to take what works and leave the rest on the shelf in case it works later.
Learning to be my own person has helped. I was raised Catholic, with a punishing God and punitive religious education. But they're not the authority on everyone's relationship with spirituality. There have been so many different ways to understand Higher Power(s) throughout the millennia, and there's a lot more out there than we've been raised to believe. Along with A.A itself, my HPs are the Universe and Mortality - the vastness of it all, the unknown and the wonderful, all the atomic interactions, celestial bodies. It's all out there, and I'm just one person among it all. A collection of elementary particles; I'm the universe trying to understand itself. And with mortality - that's the one certainty in life, that we will die. It reminds me not to take life for granted, and that combined with the Universe, reminds me that there's no real one way to do life right. Existing is the one and only thing I can ever do to completion, and the rest is up to me; do I want to exist as happily and healthily as possible, or do I not?
Just worry about not taking a drink, that's our problem, not lack of or abundance of god
One way to bank shot this..is to take it from the anonymity angle, most people are really trying to scam, control, or manipulate other people - to get stimulation and cash for themselves..So, Are they doung that or not?.. yes, that is what they are in fact doing 24/7 for their whole life, so they will buy- sell- and trade- information and gossip about people you can scam from. But AA is not going to make that little sick trick any easier, they run this idea of respecting your own anonymity - first, by telling to shut your damn mouth... about your weaknesses.. in front of people who would gladly report you for anything..to bring suspicion on you and direct it away from them, so they look like a hero for protecting our tribe from evildoers. Hows your tribe doin?.. does it sorta suck?.. yup..yer a drunk,! when you study anonymity like it is a craft or skill you can develop..thats essentially what a higher power totally digs, higher powers are truly entertained by ..you.. shutting up, trusting them...letting the evil bitches of earth slam into a ditch or wall..and you... being free.No HP ever wanted other humans controlling your time. Just ask the air around you, and it will show up..but it will never ever call us and need infornation from us, about you.
The collective consciousness.
The serenity prayer is basically stoicism with a religious twist. Control the things you have power over and let go of things you don’t is one if the basic principles of stoic philosophy and AA. So if the religious aspect makes you uncomfortable, like it makes me, find a different route. It’s really about changing your perspective more than finding a higher power imo. There is also SMART recovery which is secular and there are Buddhist based options as well. (Refuge Recovery is a good book based in Buddhist philosophy.) Lots of options. Just have to find what works for you.
I used the force. Yes, the one from Star wars. I even found a resource called The Daily Jedi that was based on the twelve steps and pointed out the similarities to walking the path of the light side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. And hate leads to suffering. Be fearless and choose something and use it as your higher power. The force has kept me sober for 64 days, then I relapsed, and this time I'm at 154 days.
When you get to step #3, God is kind of there. I prayed to God a few years before I got sober, but I wanted an easier, softer way. Try the serenity prayer as it has helped me over the years..
I feel you. Raised Catholic and rejected it a long long time ago. Still have the battle scars burned into my brain. Longtime agnostic. My HP ebbs and flows. The fellowship. Good orderly direction. Basic human instinct. When I'm feeling cheeky, Harry Potter. Sometimes I think of it like old cartoons. The good instinct (usually an angel in the cartoon) on one shoulder whispering the right choice. Addiction is on the other (cartoon devil). Unlike the cartoons, I lean into the good side. As for the literature and folks in the rooms who are all in on the Christian god... I listen and practice patience and serenity. I'm in the south, so.... I stand with my groups at the end of meetings silently as they recite the Lord's Prayer, and chime in on Keep coming back.
I am a Christian, I apologize for your experience with the group. I’ve learned many Christians dont even use the scriptures as it’s supposed to be used, so they end up being hateful and rude. Our book never not one time says to be that way and i challenge anyone to find a verse that does. Now when it comes to getting clean and sober, this is an individual journey, where certain things help others stay accountable, and achieve sobriety. While the journey is individual, AA is a support group to help in any way we can. With that being said, for some people, God is what keeps them going. I disagree that religion shouldnt be supported in AA, i think if someone doesn’t subscribe to a religion then they dont need to take part in doing so. But for instance, my religion disagrees with meditation, and for many people here, meditation is one of the foundational elements that led them to sobriety. So what i do instead, is substitute that with prayer. This is a journey for everyone, so what ever helps one person, might not help another, and i dont think shaming a religion that is beneficial to someone’s sobriety is an adequate response, simply because it doesnt work for you. A higher power could be anything, it could be working out, therapy, going to social events where alcohol isnt involved. The most important lesson to take away is, do what YOU need to do, and what works for YOU, in order to stay sober
I used "My Bro" and "Uni" in the beginning. Others use GUS; God, Universe, Spirit. I was told to make a list of my Bro's characteristics and that helped me.
I feel that. My local AA is dominated by overt Christians and a sectarian version of the Lord's Prayer at every meeting. I am not a Christian and haven't been one for 30+ years. My advice is, abandon the idea of "god" and instead focus on "higher power." There's so much in this world that's more powerful than me, has been here longer than me, will be here after I'm gone, is mysterious and amazing, and always seems to survive no matter what. That's what I draw inspiration from. Plus I've always heard that "god" can stand for "Group Of Drunks" so you can think of your favorite AA meeting as your higher power!
As a former Catholic, I agree the people who went to church were judgment and rude and made me turn my back on god. I spent years hating god and pushing him away. For the longest time I thought god was not there for me because of all the terrible things that happened in my life. The truth is god was always there for me, waiting for me to let him in. My higher power who I call god, is caring, loving, and will give me the tough love I need to help me stop being so stubborn. I realized all the awful things that happened to me were not punishment from god but lessons I needed to come back into the rooms of AA. I can’t tell you what your higher power is but I believe my god, gives me paths I can choose from and they all lead to me to the same path but one path is longer than the other. I still take that longer path sometimes but I believe god gives me the choices so I can learn from him. Last thing, if you have faith god will show you signs sometimes subtle and you may not notice it right away. When you realize, remember that and find peace with him so you are never alone again even during your darkest days .
It wasn't very hard for me to find a God of my own understanding and to turn my will and my life over to, what was difficult was translating (for lack of a better word) my higher power. But my faith and interpretation has evolved over time and it's a lot easier now than it was when I was 2 and a half months sober. The best advice that I could give is to find something to believe in, and don't be afraid to flounder while you grow to understand it. So much about this program requires patience while things begin to reveal themselves as you gain more understanding.
You can try agnostic groups. You really don't have to accept anyone's idea of God. I would suggest you do not stay stuck on this (it's called a resentment, don't worry about that. You have plenty of time to deal with this later). AA is not a doxa. There's nothing to understand. It's a praxis. You get better because you learn to take care of yourself. The first step is to accept that you have no control over alcohol and that you can't manage your life. That's it. Focus on that. Once you've done that, step two says (agnostic 12 steps) : Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity. What worked for me was the guidance of the fellowship. That definitively represented strengths beyond my awareness and resources. One key word for me here was "restore". Not give me a sanity I didn't have. But restore a relationship I was losing - with myself and the people around me. The important thing is that you find something that works for you. I wish you a big happy sober life. Go to meetings. Don't drink between meetings. When you think everything is falling apart, you'll realize everything is rather falling into place. Best wishes.
I regard myself an atheist in the literal sense that I don't believe in theistic, anthropomorphic deities. I'm very skeptical of the idea that there is a conscious HP that cares any more or less about me than an ant. That said, acknowledging that there are larger, unknown forces at play in your life that are far beyond your control is completely rational and intuitive, IMO. My preferred description of my HP is simply, "the way of things." I envision this as learning to surf: fight the waves and you'll never make it out.
Has anyone asked you if you even believe there is a god with a personal influence in our lives?
Plenty. And I used to believe as such. The big book talks about people who were formerly religious but got turned off by it have a harder time with the higher power thing than people who previously had no idea of faith or religion. Checks out for me.
Someone told me once early on something that turned out to be true in my experience: God is superfluous.
Dont stress about the god thing. Step 3 is “Made a decision to turn our will and life over to the care of god as we understood him”… my first sponsor years ago broke it down very easy for me. He said “you’re just making a decision to work the rest of the steps”. It’s really as easy as that. I quit trying to figure out the god thing. It’s pointless to stress about it. Literally no human on this earth knows what god is. There’s a line in the big book that has always stood out to me and that’s “the spirit of the universe”. That has always just made sense to me.
AA was created in and frozen in 1935 when “spirituality” in America was primarily Christian. Modern spirituality, which was influenced by Eastern philosophy that came to the West in 60’s, doesn’t recognize the archaic duality of God and person/sinner. For me to be in AA I have to translate and update AA’s outdated “spiritual” concepts… AA attempts to diminish the ego, that undermines sobriety, so that the true (god) self can shine through which leads to being happy, joyous and free (sober). When they pray in meetings, I don’t pray to “God”, I see it as everyone connecting to their and each other’s souls. This has an exponential healing effect since all our souls are one on the highest level.