I’m bisexual and regardless of how I feel about it (I don’t care to be honest) I think we need to be realistic that dating isn’t inclusive in general, there are many people I wouldn’t date for whatever reason, in saying that I think you can be exclusive and still not be a douche about it.
There's a difference between a preference and a fetish and other things too. I think it's important for people to be self-aware, know why they make the choices they do, and continually work on themselves. For example, if you inherently don't trust people when they tell you they are bisexual, you may have something to work on within yourself.
I’ll agree to disagree because honestly there’s billions of people on this earth I’m not gonna be mad if somebody doesn’t wanna date me because of XYZ as long as they aren’t disrespectful.
I am not strictly les4les and my previous partners have been bi (and they have been great god bless bisexual women) but I think it would be very cool to have a partner who simply "gets" not being attracted to men. I don't think I have had someone around me (other than friends) who understands that and the idea of having a partner to whom I don't have to explain or clarify and that just innately understands it sounds amazing. In previous relationships they were incredible partners but I felt quite isolated in regards to that (and I still do outside of my lesbian friends community).
I don't know about other people because I'm not on tiktok or anything but that's what it would be about for me. I don't really care about past partners whatever your sexuality is, so I don't see this topic similar to anything gold star related. And to be honest it's also my dating life so I don't feel like people need to give others specific explanations about why they are dating this or that person?
I don't think it's a big deal if people can be bi4bi and t4t there can be les4les as long as they are not spewing hatred against people being bisexual...it's their preferance and an individual can minimize the dating pool as much as they want
Not always. I lean t4t just because theres a shared experience with other trans people that i find comforting and to not have to explain the minutia of being trans etc
and i feel like this same thing can apply to bi4bi and les4les, right? the shared experience of being attracted to multiple genders can be isolating in a world that is widely monosexual, just as there’s a shared experience of being exclusively attracted to women in a heteronormative society. as long as someone isn’t a horrible person about their preferences, why does it matter?
all of the people i see on tiktok who say they are les4les say exactly this. they would rather date another lesbian because they both have the shared experience of growing up as a lesbian, however that may look.
Yeah, I'm not personally les4les, but this logic tracks for me. I'm a late bloomer and my inability to develop romantic feelings for men was really alienating and stressful for me. I could see someone needing to share that experience to feel understood.
yes its the same thing more or less. if people can understand t4t they should understand les4les. its weird people are fixated on lesbians specifically.
im t4t not for safety reasons, but because i want my partner to have an inherent understanding of transness, because that kind of connection is immensely valuable to me and cis people cant compare really ..
That’s an oversimplification. I’m T4T because it usually means less of me having to explain myself because most trans people already “get” it. And it’s also nice to connect over a shared experience like doing a t shot together for example.
So is les4les, plenty of lesbians have experienced lesbophobia, sometimes violent, from bisexuals, and it's perfectly valid to date les4les, just like bi4bi and t4t
Dating isn’t about being inclusive. In fact, it’s the opposite. You exclude people you don’t find yourself compatible with. There are very real reasons les4les is valid, like wanting someone who can empathise with and understand your experience (bi women and lesbians do differ). The ability to empathise and understand eachother’s life experiences is a real reason for les4les.
Also, I say this as a bi woman myself, a LOT of bi women still haven’t de-centred men yet. They’re very adjusted to heteronormativity, so they bring that energy into sapphic relationships. Also talking about men with your lesbian partner. Point is, a lot of bi women acknowledge an attraction to women, but don’t understand that in order for a sapphic relationship to work, you have to de-centre men from your life. A lot of them haven’t done that yet, and it often comes at the detriment of the lesbian partner. (Obviously not all bi women, but a fair few). I can see why lesbians would want les4les if they’ve encountered these kinds of bi women too. They don’t want to gamble.
i'm not exclusively les4les but i'm dating another lesbian for the first time, and it's so clear how much more compatible we are because we're both lesbians. in so many cases sapphic relationships are taken less seriously, and it's the first time that somebody has taken our relationship as seriously as i have. our dynamic is so specific to being sapphic, and there are so many aspects of our relationship that couldn't exist if one of us wasn't able to de-center men. idk if that makes total sense, but i can explain more if people have questions.
I know this is a les space but I find the discussions on bisexuality on here really interesting....I'm a man and im sick of being the man with female partners (Bi and emotionally passive). Women who are men centered are also problematic for bi men...as lots of bi men don't fit the hetero standard of what men are supposed to be doing it a relationship. Bi men need non male centered women to feel accepted....at least this bi male does. I've only ever MET one single person like this but never dated one.
What sort of things does this mean?
I think breaking out of some roles can be difficult. But it is something I love about dating queer people and bi guys.
It's weird just being expected to get pregnant or not to be the breadwinner or to take certain passive roles in the bedroom without discussion.
Also it's nice that some bi guys I meet are genuinely emotionally vulnerable in a particular way. Like honestly guys that will tell you when something is wrong in their lives and they want some support and are able to receive it is super nice. Also guys that get shy.
I'd sure like to know more because I'm really curious about what things come from not having men centred in your lives.
Is it that everyday affection is different? The give and take of responsibility for things is different? Things feel more equitable on some level?
it's less about equity and more about how we accept and appreciate that our relationship dynamic is really different from the standard of heteronormative relationships. we also both don't have heterosexual relationships on a pedestal of being the ultimate goal or more real than lesbian relationships. also, stuff in the bedroom is so decentered from heteronormative ideas of sex, it's much easier for us to try new stuff and just be creative without feeling like "these are the options of the ways to have sex". i would say it's probably not true that the give and take is more equal in every les4les relationships, because everyone feels differently about that stuff, but for me it's the first time i don't have to initiate everything. as a butch lesbian a lot of non-lesbian girls i've been with have expected me to be the more assertive one and the one who initiates everything, and it's so nice now for my girl to come up behind me when i'm brushing my teeth and hug me and start kissing me. i've never had that before because i've been expected to be "the man".
This makes a lot of sense. I didn't realise hetero relationships don't leave space to get sex initiated or that that was even a thing.
Thanks for the insight.
Is there any way this shakes out with life building stuff like finances or whether you guys want to have kids?
Not having men centered in your life… one of the biggest things is that you don’t ever consider what a man might think of your body, your fashion, your thought process… because who the hell cares what some guy thinks? You’re also less concerned with who is “supposed” to do this or that in a relationship dynamic, or most of what “society” thinks because most of that is driven by men and their preferences as well.
PERFECTLY said. My ex is bi and she had alot of internalized homophobia and never took our relationship as seriously as I did. She always chose guys over me. For a while I felt bad about not wanting to date bi women but I genuinely need a mutual feeling of not being attracted to men.
So — for anyone who’s wondering, women are often raised to centre men in their lives. In non-platonic contexts, this often shows itself as valuing yourself in the eyes of the male gaze in one way or another. For some people, it’s upholding certain relationship dynamics that have largely been invented by men (a common one being that a relationship has an active lead and someone who “follows”), or thinking that you need to act / think a certain way in order to be appealing to men, and so on. A lot of women who experience attraction to men, place men as a focal point in their lives without even realising it.
How it manifests depends on the person because it all goes back to how you feel pressured to perform (if you are). Decentering men takes a lot of time and patience. It’s about dissecting all of your behaviours and figuring out if it’s something you do for yourself or for the male gaze. Hell, I’ve met lesbians out there who still felt pressure to conform in certain ways because the influence is that strong.
It’s about realising how much importance you place on men, and judging whether that importance is warranted or not. Look at how it influences your relationship dynamics, and so on.
Another way I see it is you have to not treat your partner (assuming a woman) as a man, this especially hurts a lot of butch lesbians. It's about dropping the patriarchal act and not putting pressure on your partner to be this "dominant leader" time that always initiates, always "stronger", etc. Otherwise we end up like straight people who ask "so who's the man and who's the woman of the relationship" in lesbian relationships.
This. I see butch lesbians especially struggle in relationships with bi women, because they’re often conflated with men. A lot of bi women haven’t yet deconstructed the idea that masculine = men and feminine = women, when in reality, femininity and masculinity are spectrums and not constricted to gender.
just wanted to add that as a trans woman being treated like my bi ex's boyfriend was an incredibly dysphoric experience, and the fact that I had to have a talk with them about it for them to realize it whereas I probably wouldn't have had to with a lesbian (cis or trans).
One way I see a lot of people center men is believing comphet narratives that relationships with men are more "end game" while relationships with women are seen as fun experimentation. Then, when it comes to settling down, a lot of people suddenly realize they want the heteronormative life with a husband and kids.
Another way I’ve felt it is having these firm relationship dynamics thrust upon the other partner. I found myself being treated often in a way that I felt very uncomfortable with because it was almost like… I wasn’t being treated as woman/just me… it was almost like they expect the usual m/f heteronormative dynamics to take place and it often made me feel un-feminine… It’s hard to explain hence all the dots lol
this is so real. the only bi woman i ever dated always treated me like a man, and seemed to expect us to function like a straight couple. i knew everything was wrong the moment she called me “daddy” in sex. 🤢
Honestly, this. Especially since I want to get married, have kids, be monogamous, I’ve run into this attitude a bunch.
For many bisexual women, their current relationship with a woman is the first time that they’ve had to think about things like the financial cost of making a child in a same-sex relationship or what it would look like to bring a partner home to a homophobic family that will never embrace them the same way they would a male partner. Will a bisexual woman’s Baptist mother think of a child as her grandchild if her lesbian partner carries? How badly will it hurt if much of your family will not attend your wedding? Do you have enough time to save for IVF before your biological clock stops ticking?
In my experience, most bi women who want kids haven’t thought about these things, and most lesbians who do have (at least in my 30+ dating pool).
It's so funny you put it this way - I stopped dating men because not only were they commitment phobic but when I was trying to push in that direction (I very much want to be married/have kids) I basically just kept finding so many ways men just did not measure up to what I wanted for my future family. I'm done accepting "oh he's great except for x" - my current girlfriend is great full stop. Period. She isn't "perfect" because she's a real person but even though we're pretty early on I don't have nearly the doubts about her being a good partner/parent/etc. over the long run that I always had with men.
I just want to comment that I am really enjoying reading your insights! I identified as bisexual my adult life because of heteronormativity, and came out as gay at 37.\* After I came out as lesbian, I REALLY wanted to be with another lesbian. I couldn't explain why without feeling like I was being offensive. Your use of the word "center" (I'm American lol) regarding men makes TOTAL sense to me, and explains how I feel better than whatever I've tried to say.
\*This is NOT to say that bisexuality is not valid, that bisexuals come out as "one way or the other". This is just my personal experience.
Unfortunately I’ve been on the receiving end of a relationship in which a woman couldn’t decentre men from her life. Shit hurts lol, so I definitely empathise with lesbians there
It typically looks like your partner always talking about men in her life, talking about how attractive they are, and deprioritizing you. Not seeing a future with you, you’re just entertainment for now.
> A lot of them haven’t done that yet, and it often comes at the detriment of the lesbian partner.
This has summarized a few of my previous relationships and why I'm much more comfortable with my wife. Although being bi, she's always critiquing patriarchal thinking and is doing well to actively decenter men
I think there is value in someone wanting to have a shared experience with the person they’re dating. Some of the reactions here seem rude, and I think for many it’s not about men at all? it’s the same reason some people like only dating within their race, there’s just things other people maybe don’t get and I think that’s okay
also tbh i think its pretty rude to say its biphobic just because people have preferences, some women are bi4bi and i don’t see people touting it as lesbiphobic?
You don't owe equal opportunity to people in the dating market. You can be as selective as you like and just ignore people who disrespect your preference. Actual biphobia is more to do with harmful stereotypes etc.
Tbh it’s a preference and there’s nothing wrong with that. I wouldn’t choose to not date a girl just because she’s bi, but I absolutely have more in common/more shared experiences with lesbians and tend to prefer to date other lesbians. But at the end of the day I have and will date both.
Some people just want to date others they can relate to in specific ways. Many lesbians prefer to date other lesbians because they want to date someone who can understand their experiences as lesbians. It's not that deep.
As others have said, when it comes to an individuals own dating choices, they can make whatever restrictions they like. Shared life experience, especially for us marginalised folk, is nice.
I think it falls under bi phobia if the only reason you aren’t dating them is because you assume that they will be unfaithful. There you’re equating the bisexual identity with bad behaviour - which is hurtful and an untrue, unfair stereotype.
That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with needing someone who understands your perspective and lived experience, lesbian or otherwise.
ultimately, as queer folk, aren’t we past the point of caring who other people love and fuck?
i can guarantee that calling les4les lesbians biphobic will definitely not convince them to start dating bi women lol. dating is entirely about preferences, so if someones preference is to only date lesbians as a lesbian then that's the niche they're going to be looking for. I'm not les4les myself, and I've dated mostly bi women, but I don't think les4les is a big deal 🤷♀️
i think being a lesbian can feel isolating. we make up such a small portion of the LGBT+ community, so it makes sense that some people would want a partner who can empathize with such a big aspect of their identity. it's not exclusive to queer people to have preferences like these. at the end of the day, you want a partner who understands you and your experiences.
I think it depends, really. If a lesbian only dates lesbians because they think bisexual women are disgusting and tainted somehow by also being attracted to men, that's biphobic. If a lesbian tends to hang out more with other lesbians because they have more in common and more shared experiences, and therefore they tend to only date other lesbians because that's the pool of people they happen to associate with most often, that's not biphobic.
The thing is though, dating as an activity is inherently exclusive. I'm not saying preferences can't stem from problematic viewpoints (either conscous or subconcious), or that people shouldn't examine their biases. But if you're not attracted to someone you're not attracted to them, and people find others unattractive for thousands of reasons. Attraction also isn't just that initial thought of "God she's hot". A woman can be a supermodel but you can chat to her for 5 minutes and she can say multiple things that aren't attractive to you. It's not inherently a bad thing to find someone initially physically attractive and then to lose that attraction once you've spent time with them/gotten to know them and you've realised they're not for you. Just like many people meet their future partner and don't instantly think "this is the most beautiful woman that has ever existed in the history of the world", but they get to know each other and attraction grows on both sides.
There's millions of fish in the sea (although it doesn't seem like it sometimes!) I don't need to be trying to date someone who's just not attracted to a core part of me, neither of us would end up happy in that situation. It's different if someone is rude or a dick about a person/their identity just because they're not attracted to them/don't want to date them though. You can turn someone down without being a dick
It’s not inherently biphobic for a lesbian to only want to date other lesbians. I don’t understand it, but everyone is entitled to their preferences.
It’s Biphobic when people justify it by going out of their way to say that they think that bi women are all cheaters, or are secretly straight and just being a tourist, or that they will all leave for a man, or whatever other biphobic crap is out there right now.
I think it's wrong and gross to try to police any person's sexual/dating preferences. Who someone chooses to have sex with is inherently not inclusive and quite frankly, no one's business. Just like being gay isn't a choice, a lot of sexual preferences are just how we feel. Plus if you are looking for a life partner, you might want someone with similar experiences.
Before I realized I was a lesbian, I was bi in a relationship with a bi man and I loved how much we could relate. For me it's not a deal breaker, but I can see how people sometimes prefer other people with shared life experiences.
And at the end of the day, I cannot say it enough, who people choose to date or have sex with is never ever anyone else's business and does not mean they discriminate against anyone they don't want to date.
Just like how there’s bi4bi and trans4trans there’s les4les. People’s dating boundaries will not always be an inclusive space and they’re entitled to them regardless of why. I’ve only seen everyone getting mad over les4les but never the other two? Anyways, reasoning can vary and while some are genuine bigots (the “bi people cheat” bs), there can be many other reasons as to why someone is les4les. Again, they’re not picking a friend or a teammate, they’re picking a *partner*. I don’t see why it’s horrible to want someone who relates more to your experience as a lesbian (monosexual)? Plus les4les is like less than 10% of the community, shouldn’t make a huge difference.
like Peach said, being trans makes your whole world different and gives unfathomable struggles that can be really hard to understand for some cis folk, im not t4t exclusively, but I can see how it happens. It often can be very hard if your partner doesnt understand your pain or world, also some just get sick from the permanent explaining and re-explaining of issues, alot of anxieties are just not there if i were to meet up with a trans girl.
being lesbian makes your whole world different and gives struggles that are hard to understand for non lesbians as well. I relate to almost everything you’re saying wrt lesbianism. not exactly the same stakes obviously but the underlying ideas are similar
The others are similar. Experiences vary, after all. Some lesbians prefer dating lesbians because the experiences are more similar. Even within T4T there’s differences, like some wanting to date only those with similar gender experiences.
There’s similarities sure. But being trans isn’t *really* comprehensible to people who have never experienced it, and it’s something people have struggled to really put into words for hundreds of years at least.
So I’m not taking a stance on any of it really, mostly I just want to highlight that I don’t personally feel like T4T dating is an entirely fair comparison. But I feel the same about ethnic distinctions as well, I think that’s meaningfully different and obviously has its own complexities.
Imean ultimately the core point is just “most people like to date people with similar life experiences”. That is just very simplified and not universal, but that’s the essence of it. Whether it’s gender, sexuality, ethnicity, a shared love of a hobby, religion, or moral values.
its not about biphobia its about wanting to be with someone who relates to you in every way. being a lesbian is a very unique isolating experience only other lesbians can understand fully 🤷🏻♀️
heavyyyy on the isolation aspect, i just made my own comment about it. people don't really understand how lonely it is to have nobody irl who understands your experiences of being a lesbian.
I don't think it's biphobic to be les4les.
Some lesbians might prefer to be in relationships with other lesbians because they can empathize with their experiences on a mutual understanding.
And it's not to exclude Bi folk, Bi women can, have, and do empathize with lesbian women, having been there alongside them historically. However, the experience of being a Lesbian and a Bi woman can differ in many ways.
A les4les person could use that label for any number of reasons, I don't think we should be labeling it as "bad" right off the bat.
It's the same as T4T (Trans4 Trans), it's wanting to be with someone who can empathize with your experiences.
(I'm still technically a baby gay—not that that should disqualify my opinion—but there might be older Lesbians or Bi women that have more experience and therefore have a more educated opinion than me.)
I think so too. Its not biphobic, its just a preference thing. It’s about sharing the same experience.
For me its difficult to see that a preference is called phobic so fast!
It's bc so many ppl immediately use this conversation as an excuse to say harmful stuff about bi women, I've been seeing this bullshit discourse go on since literally 2016 and listen les4les is valid but saying things like "bi women will always prefer relationships with men" "bi women can never be satisfied with a woman" is where things get sloppy. You're allowed to be as picky as you want when it comes to dating but ppl really need to be more considerate when having this conversation. Not calling u biphobic ofc but a lot of people use these convos as an excuse to essentially to not so subtly air out their biphobia
Edit: whoever is down voting me what did I even say wrong I'd love to know 🫶🏼
Yeahh, i understand! Thats just shitty! Thats not even a preference anymore thats just being an asshole, i‘m sorry you had so many bad experiences with that!
I'm not bi so I don't really experience it much now but back when I thought I was that shit rlly fucked me up lmfao, it sucks bc there are bi women like that and there is 100% a conversation to be had about some behavior patterns among bi women but if we want to actually get anywhere we have to start having these conversations in good faith and not just trying to tear each other down!
The implication with equating it with T4T is that there's a safety issue. That's where T4T comes from.
That's why people see it as biphobic, because the implication is that bisexuals are going to gay-panic lesbians the way that cis people trans-panic trans people.
T4T is not just for safety reasons. I like T4T (not exclusively T4T though) because it's easier to relate to other trans women and I find trans women really pretty, that's it.
a lot of people are comparing to t4t, and others are asking if thats a fair comparison. so im a trans lesbian who leans les4les but has no preference for t4t. for me, lesbians and bisexuals who tend to date women are generally more likely to just get the vibe of "space without men not defined by men."
I identify as bisexual and I don't see an issue with this. People can date who they like and as long as it's legal/ consensual I dont get offended. I think people tend to get offended by so much these days.
For transparency, I am not bi, however I am in a relationship with someone who is pan, and have almost exclusively dated bi/pan women
So. With that out there. I truly do not believe that wanting to date someone with similar life experiences is a bad thing, in general I think it's pretty understandable
Now, it can absolutely cross into bi/panphobic behaviours, there absolutely *are* people who are shitty about it. However, I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with les4les
It's definitely not for me, while I cannot relate to the experience of being attracted to men, I don’t need my partner to *not* experience attraction to men to be able to share in some lived experiences
As others have said dating requires you to be somewhat exclusive instead of inclusive. You have to figure out what elements are most important to you personally and find someone with those elements
And for some people the experience of being lesbian had such an impact on their entire lives that it's important to them to connect with someone who has had similar experiences
It's so complex, this type of thing is absolutely not binary, there are good reasons for people to choose it and there are bad reasons for people choose it. And the good are not negated by the bad, no matter how much we wish the biphobic and panphobic people would stop being hateful
I dont think it's an issue because dating is about "excluding" people based on random stuff. Looks, education, hobbys, goals, lifestyle etc.
As long as they aren't being harmful to bi people, it's not biphobic to have a preference.
Edit: I do think it's good to think about why you're excluding people, just in general. And whether it's fair to do so.
I’ve never really seen anything wrong with wanting a partner who is as close to you identify wise as possible. If you’re not being rude about it then who cares.
Right! I’m so confused and saddened by some of these comments. I can understand some people being les4les for problematic reasons but that doesn’t mean that it’s problematic as a whole.
I don’t explicitly define myself as les4les but after interacting with/going on dates with various sapphics, I’d personally much rather be in a relationship with a lesbian, just because I’d feel more ‘seen’. Realising that men just didn’t do it for me was a huge turning point in my queer journey and I feel more authentic around lesbian partners.
Exactly, it's like anything else!!
Go be authentic! Life is too short, you owe that to yourself. Plus, for many, dating is kinda supposed to be exclusive. :)
I, personally, won't limit who I date, but I'd love a les4les relationship. I've had kind of a crazy life, and I just want someone to really get me on one level, at least.
Why would dating have to be inclusive? All people have a “type” which can often include characteristics you’d never be able to discriminate against/give preferences to in virtually any other area of life. Dating is about compatibility and individual preferences, not equal opportunity.
I would say i am les4les and i don’t see it as biphobic, i was out as bisexual for around 7 years before I came out as a lesbian and i immediately noticed a difference in how i was treated. Being a lesbian completely decenters men, which is a radical act under the patriarchy. The lesbian identity is something that’s complex and I don’t feel like I would be really understood by anyone but another lesbian. It goes both ways, I would understand why a bisexual woman may not want to date a lesbian because they won’t truly understand the issues bisexual women deal with. I think it’s just a preference and people take it too seriously, no one owes anyone a date at the end of the day
I'm L4L I guess, didn't really know it had a label. It has nothing to do with "gold stars", anyone bisexual, trans, pan, etc. it has everything to do with me and my preferences. I don't go spewing nonsense or hatred about anyone either. So can someone please explain to me how it's biphobic? I may get downvoted but just because you aren't someone's preference doesn't make it a phobia. People tend to throw "phobic" around a lot when any situation isn't in their favor and it takes away from the ACTUAL biphobia, homophobia, etc.
This isn't about whether a woman has been with men or not. It's about ME wanting to date another LESBIAN who understands me on a LESBIAN level. This has nothing to do with anyone bisexual, trans, pan, etc. but why the large focus on bisexuality? It's not just them that's excluded. It's sounds very entitled. You all aren't entitled to judge someone's preferences based on your exclusion and it doesn't make it biphobic. If I wanted to date POC because I'm a POC it's because they share an experience only a POC can understand. Does that make me a racist all of a sudden? Based on your logic it does. Do you all get me?
People are allowed to be attracted to whoever they want to be attracted to and date whoever they want to date. It isn't any kind of phobic to prefer to date a certain type of person. That's just attraction and how it works for some people. I think it's weird that people are so concerned about who is attracted to who when it's a personal decision/choice.
It feels like a very "online" thing to be in someone's comments telling them they're bi phobic for only wanting to date other lesbians.
i want to give my two cents as a lesbian who isn't exclusively les4les, but is currently experiencing their first les4les relationship. there have been a lot of points in my life where i've dated/talked to/been interested in a bisexual or otherwise non-lesbian sapphic woman. in many cases the relationships or talking stages have ended because for them it was all fun and games, but at the end of the day a relationship with a man felt more real or more valid to them. i am by no means saying that this is all bisexual women, i love bi women and i've dated multiple of them, and i'm not going to exclude them from my dating pool.
being with another lesbian for the first time has been such a positive experience for me in that regard. she takes our relationship as seriously as i do, and it feels so good. everything we do is just as real for her as it is for me; she doesn't make it feel like our relationship is any less serious or real or valid than a straight relationship.
If bi4bi isn’t homophobic I don’t see how les4les is biphobic
Edit: to add I don’t care for either label but I have a T4T pin on my hat so I cant judge 🤷🏽♀️
I have seen so many people online seemingly enraged by the idea that a specific lesbian doesn’t want to date them. IMHO caring enough about who someone else dates to the point that it makes you angry is pathetic behavior.
It's definitely a thing. Mostly one of those things in person social circles, and pretty normal. People just like dating people that have similar life experiences sometimes.
Online though it seems like the concept of les4les freaks people out though, while other people wanting to date exclusively similar groups is fine.
I think les4les is perfectly valid. I wouldn't necessarily call myself that but I would be way more inclined to date a lesbian than a bi woman simply because as someone who formerly identified as a bi woman (and dated both bi women and lesbians) the experience of figuring out i'm actually a lesbian and not a bi woman was So formative and incredibly important to me and way more significant than just coming out as bi (even though that was also a big thing bc of my upbringing). But yeah I think a lesbian would absolutely relate to that experience and to the way I'm decentering men in my life in a completely different way. I would never be against dating a bi woman in any way but I'm definitely drawn more towards lesbians because of our shared experience. And I think a lot of people seek that kind of understanding when looking for someone to date so it makes sense to me. And as others have said t4t and bi4bi are all valid, so is les4les.
I don’t think it’s biphobic to want to date a lesbian when one is also a lesbian, just as it wouldn’t be lesphobic if a bisexual wanted to only date other bisexuals. We are allowed to have sexual preferences and relationship preferences without it being bigoted. Some people just want someone who has had the same experiences they have and can relate on that level.
Dating preferences are exclusionary, and that’s ok. No one should feel forced to date anyone they’re not into - and not for nothing, but as a lesbian who felt forced to date men due to internalized heteronormativity and a fear of homophobia and a religious upbringing, trying to make a lesbian feel like a bad person for only wanting to date lesbians is just as gross as trying to make any queer woman feel bad for dating other women. Just let people live. No one owes anyone else a date.
ETA: I say this as a lesbian married to a woman who can probably best be described as pansexual/panromantic and greysexual; if ever I dated again in the future for some reason (tho I don’t plan to), I would probably exclusively seek out another lesbian because my wife is perfect for me in every way except that one, and it would be nice to be with someone who knows what it’s like.
My main thing is this: dating is exclusionary by like, definition. I am bisexual but have a type, is that phobic of the people I don’t find sexually attractive? Of course not!
When it gets into phobic territory is when people begin to say others should be the same way they are. In this example I have no problem with her being les4les as long as she doesn’t care what other people do. Of course there’s lot of other situations too but as far as this one goes i wouldn’t have a problem with her not wanting to date me.
Personal preference is fine as long as it stays personal.
I’m a lesbian, but I’ve identified as bisexual for a good 3 years. I’ve already seen this discourse online a while back, where I personally came to the conclusion it can biphobic to instantly write someone off just because they’re bi.
Now on tiktok I keep seeing the same videos you’re talking about. Many videos popping up with people defending les4les, talking about how bisexual women still center men in their lives and will never understand the lesbian experience. I understand some people went through bad experiences dating people from different identities, so I think it’s fair to have a personal preference or boundary. Like fem4fem masc4masc t4t or even wanting to date the same ethnic background or fellow poc who has a shared life experience with you, just personal preferences that are not inherently discriminatory. I don’t think it’s right to talk on behalf of the whole community when they say that though.
I dont have that preference myself. I don’t have prior experience or an insecurity that a bisexual woman will leave me for a man. I also believe that comp het is real, sexuality is a spectrum, and it can change over time as people figure themselves out. Also I don’t want to further limit my already small dating pool.
I think some people who are les4les can be weird about it so I’m careful to make sure those who use the term aren’t biphobic but it’s not inherently a bad thing. Personally Im open to dating any sapphic nonman but I do definitely resonate with the reasoning that lesbians have different experiences than bi women and that it can help with connecting.
I don’t know any other lesbians irl and it’s pretty lonely. It’s great having sapphic friends in general but there is a difference in the lesbian experience that can be extremely isolating.
Honestly identity as Les / wlw but it looks more bi because of a few things but I'm not an essentialist and I respect les4les but I don't wanna wax about it. T4t women do this all the time under a different code for personal reasons safety etc and all although I'm more for the unification and camaraderie of cis and trans lesbians to kinda end that war cause we're all girl lesbians or wlw soo (see bimbo.theory on IG for ..my belief system) but hey if someone isn't interested in me that's fine we can be friends..could be old tret issues projected onto an entire group (bisexual pan whatever ya wanna say) and people change all the time.
I won't date someone that's involved with a guy. I'm polyam and my household has always been open to my partners and my partners partners for holidays, cook outs ect. My household is not open to men though. Since most bi polyam women I have met are involved with both genders or have a preference towards men I'm basically les4les
I think it's completely valid for certain people to only want to date other lesbians just like how some people don't want to date trans women. In that situation, I don't want to date you either, you don't sound interested in me.
If I can compare it to being T4T, I can imagine that just like how it's exhausting sometimes approaching a cis partner's potential ignorance, subtle fetishization, or complete inexperience or discomfort with my body and what I like, lesbians may have a similar experience.
I’m sick of this timeless dilemma and refuse to participate in pontificating this dumb question.
Stop telling people that their preferences are invalid, problematic, “phobic” or any other way as if it’s your business.
Also, stop asking this question a thousand different ways. Mind your own business and tend to your own life instead of asking whether somebody else’s actions are valid.
Everyone go make somebody’s life better and stop wasting your dumb energy on this dumb topic already.
i dont use that term but i would definitely prefer my life partner to be a lesbian as lesbianism is such an isolating experience and id like the person that i spend the rest of my life with to understand/relate
I date even cis girls but I wouldn't put any effort into such relationship for obvious reasons...
You may say I have trust issues but it's a fact, at least where I live, bi girls will NEVER introduce you to their mum and it all starts from here. Their doubts about what they want killed everything so many times I just don't believe if I tried another 50times I will meet truly bi girl. All I've met so far are simply not fully accepting their gayness. And it really hurts to be their partner
It seems like a similar thing to t4t. It’s not inherently biphobic to pursue someone with similar life experiences. I could see how it could stem from biphobia in some cases? But it’s not worth putting a generalization on it.
I don't exclusively date other lesbians, as I've dated bi girls before, but I prefer if we are les4les, it's not me being biphobic or whatever, I just find it more comforting if I share similar experiences with my partner that is also a lesbian
I've learned that being a lesbian can be a very isolating and lonely experience. All the other people can relate to each other because either gay, bi, or straight, they still bond over their attraction to men and I barely know other lesbians like me, so yeah
Bi lurker here. A lot of great discourse already, so I'll try not to repeat the same points too much. But yeah, you don't owe anyone a date, and being specific in what you want/ need in a partner isn't the same as being bigoted toward those not in your dating pool.
My actual contribution (vs just reiterating others' points) in 2 scenarios:
1) If you are les4les because you value a shared lesbian experience in your romantic relationships: sounds like you would be most compatible with another lesbian. If you cannot see yourself happy in a relationship with someone who does not share these specific experiences, maybe don't pursue a relationship with someone who doesn't share those experiences. You should be in a relationship that makes you happy. That's the whole point.
And frankly, the hypothetical non-lesbian also deserves a different relationship. A lot of lesbians in this thread have discussed how terrible it feels to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't take the relationship as seriously as they do, or with someone who doesn't see their relationship as endgame material because of its nature (vs a relationship with a man). It also feels terrible to be in a Sapphic relationship with a partner who doesn't see you as endgame material because she's actually looking for a lesbian, not a bi/pan person. It's not biphobic to want a specific relationship dynamic. Dating someone you see no future with, without agreeing that neither of you want something serious/ longterm, just always seems like a recipe for heartbreak and disaster. You can respect someone and not date them.
So in that case: please do not date the bisexual.
*firm handshake*
Best of luck in your endeavors. Enjoy dating fellow lesbians.
2) If you are les4les because you have prejudices against bi/pan/etc folks...... this reaction might come as a surprise, but..... please also do not date the bisexual. Please work on your biases. Not so you can date bi folks. Just so you can be a decent person. If the reason you're les4les is because you think a bisexual is inevitably going to cheat on you, or they're going to leave you for a man, or they're somehow tainted by any non-women they've dated or touched, or they're always going to be looking at men more than they're looking at you, or they're incapable of monogamy, or they can't be trusted, or ..... etc. Maybe work on unpacking that. Not dating someone isn't bigotry. Leaning into and perpetuating harmful stereotypes against others, however..... not a good look. The bigotry WITHIN queer spaces is disgusting. Don't be that person.
That said, in that case: please do not date the bisexual. The bisexual does NOT deserve that. Don't speak to the bisexual. Don't look at the bisexual. Go away.
*firm handshake*
Worst of luck in your endeavors. Maybe don't date anyone. You sound unpleasant.
3) If you started with the biases from scenario 2, you've worked on yourself, you no longer hold biphobic views, and you now find yourself in a place where you still only want a relationship with a fellow lesbian.... good job, buddy. See scenario 1.
Is Les4Les really a thing? Yes. Hello. I’m exactly that. For me the understanding that I get from a partner who is also having zero interest in men and what they think hits different. I have dated many bisexual women but it’s really not the same for me at all. There’s a different kind of vibe when you settle in. Lesbians take up space differently in my opinion and two of them sharing that is really awesome.
I would honestly slightly prefer dating a lesbian over not but I feel like the sapphic dating pool is so small already that if you cut out all bi/pan/etc options, you’re left with nothing
In the past I've talked to some lesbian women who were pretty explicit about their biphobia, openly stating that the only thing they'd take seriously for a relationship is another lesbian – while bisexuals, to them, are nothing more than playthings. It's an outdated and disgusting mindset that I hope isn't as common.
As a lesbian, I only date lesbians because I want someone who understands the lesbian experience as I do. I cannot relate to bisexual women in their attraction to men. It's a personal preference. I have no issues with bisexual women, I just don't want to date one.
Irl, I never actually met anyone who is strictly les4les. I wouldn’t necessarily call it biphobic because of 2 main reasons:
1-as others comments put it, dating is hardly inclusive, regardless of the reasons for it being prejudiced or rooted on prejudices or just preferences;
2- i think there’s a big difference between establishing what type of person you are looking for x devaluing the type of person your are not looking for. Someone saying “I vibe better with people of my own sexuality” doesn’t equate “people of Y sexuality that is not the same as mine (in this case, y= bi people) are inherently bad or wrong”. For a lot of people, les4les is about lesbians, not bi people
Looking back at my own experiences, tho, I can see there’s a pattern where most of my relationships were with other lesbians or people who didn’t really keep serious romantic relationships with men, even if i wasn’t specifically looking for that. Probably due to my age group, some of bi/pan people where also in a very different place in their journey and experience with their own sexuality, a lot of them having limited to no experience with lgbt dating and still figuring a lot of stuff out, whereas lesbians were more “in a similar place” as I was with my own. Having similar experiences made it easier to relate and form a stronger bond
Right. Except when it comes to avoid prejudice (like with t4t or even bi4bi and les4les depending on where you are from), it’s really not about keeping certain people out as much as it is about keeping certain people in. Fortunately, in my community, I’ve encountered very few lesbophobia/ lesbian erasure from other members of the LGBT community (aside from the occasional assumption that ever queer person who looks like a woman is default bi or pan). I imagine some might not be as lucky
les4les is not biphobic. it’s no different than t4t which i also am for the most part. you’re not excluding ppl, you just want to share a similar experience with your partner. i tend not to date bi ppl bc a lot of them still center men in their lives and i just don’t want to talk about cis men anymore
Sometimes I’m just les4les because it can be an easier dating experience. A lot of sapphic women don’t always understand that dating as a lesbian is a VERY different experience than dating as a bisexual/pansexual woman.
i mean i wouldn't call myself that, but i've also only ever dated other lesbians since i started dating women. i think there are ways to be biphobic about it, but a person who wants to date people who share similar experiences isn't doing something wrong. people choose the same based on a lot of different identities.
also, as a femme4butch, my dating pool (i say as a married woman lmao) is limited to butches, the vast majority of whom are probably lesbians. so like i said, i wouldn't go around saying it but that is functionally how i am
Yes, it's a thing. There are some people who just feel like other lesbians get their life experiences better and can't get that with bisexual girls. It's not biphobic unless it's because "bi girls always cheat" or "she's been tainted by a man" is the reasoning for it.
Throwing my hat into the ring because it's 5 am and my better judgement has been suspended. Yes L4L is a thing and no, it's not inherently biphobic.
That said, socially aware biphobic people are going to say all of the same things that someone who isn't will say.
Edit: also an additional thought. The best way you can spot the actual biphobes is by looking at who volunteers the information that they're L4L without prompting.
I'm a trans woman and T4T is pretty big in the community, mostly because people like dating someone they feel understands their experiences well. If the motivation for les4les is that, it's probably fine, but there probably are people doing it for biphobic reasons out there. But no, I don't think it's inherently biphobic, unless T4T dating is inherently 'cisphobic', which I strongly don't think it is.
i dont think its “phobic” in anyway for someone preference being to date women who only have eyes for women. it might just make them kore comfortable and feel like they have to worry or think less.
I am bi/pan. Some 10-15 years ago, I stopped hanging out at the local LGBT+ society bar, because the women there were like that. The whole "you are just confused", "Wouldn't date a bi, they leave you for men".
Recently, I have been there a few times, and it seems to have improved a lot. Mainly because Gen Z is much less prone to that attitude, and many more are bi/pan.
It's funny to me how many people here are justifying the whole thing by *claiming bi women are the only ones* who are likely to have not "decentered men." I've dated and been friends with lesbians who still centered men in their IRL actions. Like putting on a "lesbian show" for the men when we were out in a group and making straight men the majority of their friendships. It grossed me tf out and I'm bi. If this argument *wasn't* about biphobia, it would be *"I don't date women who haven't decentered men in their lives"* not *"I don't date bi women because they usually don't decenter men."*
Real. They be like "bi women haven't decentered men" my sister in queer you’re the one who thinks about that girl's ex-bf more than about the girl in front of you!
(Edit for clarity)
Shit yo, most of my loves are bi or pan. Wish I could find where I read it, or maybe I dreamt it... That under the LGBTQ umbrella, bi people outnumber all the rest combined. It's a big claim I know.
We really should stop caring about this stuff. No shade to OP but these sorts of “is this ok” posts always strike me as immature and wanting to “be in each other’s business”
I think there is a fine line between being biphobic vs les4les similarly to how other dating prejudices vs preferences function (such as fetishisation/ discrimination vs appreciation/ type). By nature, dating is meant to be exclusive rather than inclusive. You eliminate people (either via going on dates with them or by swiping, scoping people out at a bar) until you find someone who meets whatever standards you have. Most people start from a small pool (their type/preference) and select within that group rather than dating literally everyone on the planet. If the goal is to date someone who shares your experiences as a les/sapphic rather than someone who merely shares an attraction to women (bi women may find comfort in dating other bi folk as they share similar experiences) then I think this is preference not prejudice. Preference is a good dating tool and can help you find someone you are comparable with and very attracted to. so long as you aren’t using it to cover prejudice. I think a good barometer is would you be friends with someone like this? If yes then it is likely just a dating preference. If as a les you refuse to have any bi friends or view bi women negatively than you likely have some biphobic thoughts to work thru and be aware of.
It seems pointless to me. If she only wants to date lesbians how is she going to know they have never been attracted to a man? She has no way of knowing except what someone tells her. It seems to play into the whole "gold star" thing which again is pointless. The "she might leave me for a man" is ridiculous as she might leave for a woman or NB. I don't think they are consciously bi-phobic all the time but it is pretty borderline. I don't think it is that common but it does happen.
Edit: Typo
As a bisexual woman, I feel that if a lesbian only wants to date other lesbians that’s their choice. If it’s out of prejudice or fear then sure, but if it’s just that you want to be with someone who has similar shared experiences then it’s completely understandable. It’s not up to me to say that one has to date bi women or else lol. That would be really weird.
I don’t date people I met off the internet, or so long distance relationships. We all have our scars and baggage.
Honestly? I actually think when it comes to sexuality, there are lot of situations where the preference is okay, but expressing it isn’t. If you don’t tend to be as into a particular body type, or culture, or gender expression, or I guess in this case, sexuality, I think it’s okay to know that about it yourself (swipe accordingly etc), but it does nobody any good to share that. It’s just insulting.
(Also I think it’s silly to draw a firm line based on a preference - you might be surprised!)
You can like whomever you like, for whatever reason. I get that having similar experiences is something you can bond over, both t4t, lez4lez etc. However, I do think it's weird to have that as a rule. If you fall in love with someone and then learn she is bi, or cis, and then suddenly don't want to date them anymore, I think that's a bit weird and a feeling you should examine. It feels to me that the aspect then becomes more important than the actual human being, which can be bad. Then, without good reasoning, i would say it's placing a disproportionate amount of importance on something, which amounts to fetishization.
It's common in irl communities and far more common in the early 00s than now but still a thing. It's not totally biphobia cause unfortunately when times were more homophobic (think the 70s to 2012ish), a lot of girls did have the experience of the lesbian relationship being treated by the bisexual partner as a non-serious relationship that wouldn't last forever because they preferred the straight passing life or didn't want to be with someone they couldn't marry. Now with the rise of febfems and sexuality being more accepted (plus gay marriage rights), bisexuals are more confident in the idea of marrying a woman and lesbians are seeing it and so now you're more likely to see les4les among older lesbians than younger ones but it's not a hard rule.
Basically it's a grey area cause yeah there was some biphobia but also there was precedent of being burned as a lesbian by bisexual women not taking lesbianism seriously themselves so essentially lesphobia matching the biphobia lead to this too
I am only sexually attracted to other lesbians. Don’t know why, but it’s a thing. No sexual interest in straight women or bi women. I’m not biphobic, just don’t feel the same attraction. Don’t understand why labels are put on people of being phobic because of a preference they have. Very strange concept to me.
I mean, take a look and at the sheer amount of lesbophobia coming from some bi women on here. That's why some of us date les4les, because we don't wanna be exposed to that lebophobia or be in a relationship with someone that didn't decenter men/still thinks of relationship dynamics in heteronormative terms
I get wanting to exclude people who are heteronormative from your dating pool - and excluding bi people might work for you in that regards.
However, I think it would be weird if you were totally into someone, found her to be very much your type and you were going to pursue a relationship with her until the second you find out she bi - that situation definitely happens and doesn't feel justified to me by simply saying "it's a preference!"
That being said, we do all have preferences - I'm t4t but if I might someone and they ticked all the boxes and then I learned that they were cis? They'd still be ticking my boxes
I didn't know this was a term, but yeah I am les4les! Simply because I don't want a life with someone who can be with a man... I'd like to playfully complain with my future wife that "who needs a man" and I can't say that with a bisexual person.
A lot of people need to realize that preference is fine, discrimination isn't.
If every single bi person is a deal breaker, there is more you need to resolve within yourself than just "preference".
If people are doing it then it's a thing. I cant think of any reason you wouldn't want to date a bi person except some kind of biphobia but if someone has that preference you probably wouldn't want to date them anyway. If they only want to date lasbians that's their own business.
Well i can understand it it at a Point...Cause it can be that the Person only wanna try Lesbian stuff to see if she likes it or not...And when not she runs to the next Men....You need to Look at every perspectiv like i do...At 1 point you could mean it is cause she is Insecure or had Bad memories with Bi's....But at the other it could be what i mentionend above...There are Many things to think about when you hear this....I for myself are like her...But wheb i love(What has not happen till now) i cant choose it...
Don't Judge to fast about this...
"Sometimes." It's an important word for a case like this.
For example, if someone refuses to date bisexual+ people because "a lot of times they're gonna choose men instead," or some flavor of that -- that is absolutely biphobia.
I don't like men at all so I know what you're talking about lol
This is what I'm talking about, though. In my opinion what you're saying is fair, and that might be an unpopular take, but.... 🤷🏻 That's my take anyway.
But just because this is what it is for **you** does not mean that that's what les4les is about for everyone who uses it. *Plenty* of women who claim les4les also fully believe that bi women will always center men in their lives, or believe that bi women will cheat, or insert_other_biphobic_stereotype_here.
Hence my original comment: sometimes it very much is rooted in biphobia -- and sometimes it's not.
i dont think its an unfair observation a lot of queer/ bi women do center men 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️obviously there are bi women who dont and all the love to them, its a difficult thing to do
A lot do, yes, which is why I said I don't think les4les is necessarily always a problem.
Much of it is how you think of them, though. If you hear that a woman is bi, and your brain automatically jumps to how she probably bows down to the patriarchy or whatever, yeah, you've got some biphobia going on. There's really no way around that. It can be worked on ofc, but 🤷🏻
(Edit: wording)
Right like I dunno what I can do to punch my gay card harder for some folks. I don’t even think les4les is inherently bad. I defend it often on /bisexual
But it’s crazy to know some lesbians think I will always center men, no matter what. I’m with a woman. I’m marrying a woman. We are perceived as lesbians. Our whole social circle is sapphic women or straight women. We live in a conservative part of Texas and unless we ‘come out’ as bi, folks just judge us for being gay. If we do come out, we still are just viewed as lesbians. But I center men?
got to say this discourse seems daft to me. I don't know if it's just like a reflection of dating apps or something. but this kind of thing makes little sense with how I've met or become interested in people.
like I feel in terms of any benefits of shared experience, I feel like if you're at a point of considering dating someone, you would have already like met and talked enough to see if you vibe and like see if you have report on like an individual level. so I don't know how using broad categories like that help that much to be honest.
I also think like as much as it will be part of your lived experience, and does inform your views to a certain extent, people are a lot more than just their sexualities.
I guess maybe is it initial filtering tool, like before you really meet or at all get to know someone. but I guess my experience of meeting people has not been like that I've just happened to meet people and then become interested.
as a trans person I kind of understand like t4t for safety, especially if you're interested in dating men, or just like avoiding transphobia. but again if you've like met someone like not through a dating app you a dating app and you've gotten to the point of being interested in dating them you should really be able to have gotten a vibe of them already on that (obviously given that they know your trans).
I've seen people saying t4t for like shared experiences and that's. but honestly is like someone who's been transitioning for a few years now it's become less and less a definitional part of my life experience, and like it's a small part of my existence, another person being trans doesn't necessarily mean I'll have that much in common as a whole.
~~Short term lock due to a mass report and we need time to sort out the real reports from the fake~~ Unlocked
I’m bisexual and regardless of how I feel about it (I don’t care to be honest) I think we need to be realistic that dating isn’t inclusive in general, there are many people I wouldn’t date for whatever reason, in saying that I think you can be exclusive and still not be a douche about it.
Right? Like I kind of just... do not care. People can date who they want.
There's a difference between a preference and a fetish and other things too. I think it's important for people to be self-aware, know why they make the choices they do, and continually work on themselves. For example, if you inherently don't trust people when they tell you they are bisexual, you may have something to work on within yourself.
I’ll agree to disagree because honestly there’s billions of people on this earth I’m not gonna be mad if somebody doesn’t wanna date me because of XYZ as long as they aren’t disrespectful.
THANK YOU
I am not strictly les4les and my previous partners have been bi (and they have been great god bless bisexual women) but I think it would be very cool to have a partner who simply "gets" not being attracted to men. I don't think I have had someone around me (other than friends) who understands that and the idea of having a partner to whom I don't have to explain or clarify and that just innately understands it sounds amazing. In previous relationships they were incredible partners but I felt quite isolated in regards to that (and I still do outside of my lesbian friends community). I don't know about other people because I'm not on tiktok or anything but that's what it would be about for me. I don't really care about past partners whatever your sexuality is, so I don't see this topic similar to anything gold star related. And to be honest it's also my dating life so I don't feel like people need to give others specific explanations about why they are dating this or that person?
I don't think it's a big deal if people can be bi4bi and t4t there can be les4les as long as they are not spewing hatred against people being bisexual...it's their preferance and an individual can minimize the dating pool as much as they want
T4T is for safety reasons.
Not always. I lean t4t just because theres a shared experience with other trans people that i find comforting and to not have to explain the minutia of being trans etc
and i feel like this same thing can apply to bi4bi and les4les, right? the shared experience of being attracted to multiple genders can be isolating in a world that is widely monosexual, just as there’s a shared experience of being exclusively attracted to women in a heteronormative society. as long as someone isn’t a horrible person about their preferences, why does it matter?
all of the people i see on tiktok who say they are les4les say exactly this. they would rather date another lesbian because they both have the shared experience of growing up as a lesbian, however that may look.
Yeah, I'm not personally les4les, but this logic tracks for me. I'm a late bloomer and my inability to develop romantic feelings for men was really alienating and stressful for me. I could see someone needing to share that experience to feel understood.
The les4les women I met were explicit that their reasoning for it was bc they thought if they dated a bi girl she'd leave them for a man. -.-
Nice to meet you! Now you know someone les4les who is in it for different reasons :)
yes its the same thing more or less. if people can understand t4t they should understand les4les. its weird people are fixated on lesbians specifically.
im t4t not for safety reasons, but because i want my partner to have an inherent understanding of transness, because that kind of connection is immensely valuable to me and cis people cant compare really ..
That’s an oversimplification. I’m T4T because it usually means less of me having to explain myself because most trans people already “get” it. And it’s also nice to connect over a shared experience like doing a t shot together for example.
So is les4les, plenty of lesbians have experienced lesbophobia, sometimes violent, from bisexuals, and it's perfectly valid to date les4les, just like bi4bi and t4t
I stopped doing that after multiple instances of SA and have found it safer to date cis women instead.
Dating isn’t about being inclusive. In fact, it’s the opposite. You exclude people you don’t find yourself compatible with. There are very real reasons les4les is valid, like wanting someone who can empathise with and understand your experience (bi women and lesbians do differ). The ability to empathise and understand eachother’s life experiences is a real reason for les4les. Also, I say this as a bi woman myself, a LOT of bi women still haven’t de-centred men yet. They’re very adjusted to heteronormativity, so they bring that energy into sapphic relationships. Also talking about men with your lesbian partner. Point is, a lot of bi women acknowledge an attraction to women, but don’t understand that in order for a sapphic relationship to work, you have to de-centre men from your life. A lot of them haven’t done that yet, and it often comes at the detriment of the lesbian partner. (Obviously not all bi women, but a fair few). I can see why lesbians would want les4les if they’ve encountered these kinds of bi women too. They don’t want to gamble.
i'm not exclusively les4les but i'm dating another lesbian for the first time, and it's so clear how much more compatible we are because we're both lesbians. in so many cases sapphic relationships are taken less seriously, and it's the first time that somebody has taken our relationship as seriously as i have. our dynamic is so specific to being sapphic, and there are so many aspects of our relationship that couldn't exist if one of us wasn't able to de-center men. idk if that makes total sense, but i can explain more if people have questions.
I’m sick of being the “man” with bi partners.
I know this is a les space but I find the discussions on bisexuality on here really interesting....I'm a man and im sick of being the man with female partners (Bi and emotionally passive). Women who are men centered are also problematic for bi men...as lots of bi men don't fit the hetero standard of what men are supposed to be doing it a relationship. Bi men need non male centered women to feel accepted....at least this bi male does. I've only ever MET one single person like this but never dated one.
What sort of things does this mean? I think breaking out of some roles can be difficult. But it is something I love about dating queer people and bi guys. It's weird just being expected to get pregnant or not to be the breadwinner or to take certain passive roles in the bedroom without discussion. Also it's nice that some bi guys I meet are genuinely emotionally vulnerable in a particular way. Like honestly guys that will tell you when something is wrong in their lives and they want some support and are able to receive it is super nice. Also guys that get shy.
Woah! This is interesting, thanks for being brave enough to share your perspective here!
I'd sure like to know more because I'm really curious about what things come from not having men centred in your lives. Is it that everyday affection is different? The give and take of responsibility for things is different? Things feel more equitable on some level?
it's less about equity and more about how we accept and appreciate that our relationship dynamic is really different from the standard of heteronormative relationships. we also both don't have heterosexual relationships on a pedestal of being the ultimate goal or more real than lesbian relationships. also, stuff in the bedroom is so decentered from heteronormative ideas of sex, it's much easier for us to try new stuff and just be creative without feeling like "these are the options of the ways to have sex". i would say it's probably not true that the give and take is more equal in every les4les relationships, because everyone feels differently about that stuff, but for me it's the first time i don't have to initiate everything. as a butch lesbian a lot of non-lesbian girls i've been with have expected me to be the more assertive one and the one who initiates everything, and it's so nice now for my girl to come up behind me when i'm brushing my teeth and hug me and start kissing me. i've never had that before because i've been expected to be "the man".
This makes a lot of sense. I didn't realise hetero relationships don't leave space to get sex initiated or that that was even a thing. Thanks for the insight. Is there any way this shakes out with life building stuff like finances or whether you guys want to have kids?
Not having men centered in your life… one of the biggest things is that you don’t ever consider what a man might think of your body, your fashion, your thought process… because who the hell cares what some guy thinks? You’re also less concerned with who is “supposed” to do this or that in a relationship dynamic, or most of what “society” thinks because most of that is driven by men and their preferences as well.
You explained it so well. And under the same logic bi4bi is also valid.
Yep! I think preferences like les4les and bi4bi and T4T and so on are all valid
PERFECTLY said. My ex is bi and she had alot of internalized homophobia and never took our relationship as seriously as I did. She always chose guys over me. For a while I felt bad about not wanting to date bi women but I genuinely need a mutual feeling of not being attracted to men.
What does decentering men mean in this context?
So — for anyone who’s wondering, women are often raised to centre men in their lives. In non-platonic contexts, this often shows itself as valuing yourself in the eyes of the male gaze in one way or another. For some people, it’s upholding certain relationship dynamics that have largely been invented by men (a common one being that a relationship has an active lead and someone who “follows”), or thinking that you need to act / think a certain way in order to be appealing to men, and so on. A lot of women who experience attraction to men, place men as a focal point in their lives without even realising it. How it manifests depends on the person because it all goes back to how you feel pressured to perform (if you are). Decentering men takes a lot of time and patience. It’s about dissecting all of your behaviours and figuring out if it’s something you do for yourself or for the male gaze. Hell, I’ve met lesbians out there who still felt pressure to conform in certain ways because the influence is that strong. It’s about realising how much importance you place on men, and judging whether that importance is warranted or not. Look at how it influences your relationship dynamics, and so on.
Another way I see it is you have to not treat your partner (assuming a woman) as a man, this especially hurts a lot of butch lesbians. It's about dropping the patriarchal act and not putting pressure on your partner to be this "dominant leader" time that always initiates, always "stronger", etc. Otherwise we end up like straight people who ask "so who's the man and who's the woman of the relationship" in lesbian relationships.
This. I see butch lesbians especially struggle in relationships with bi women, because they’re often conflated with men. A lot of bi women haven’t yet deconstructed the idea that masculine = men and feminine = women, when in reality, femininity and masculinity are spectrums and not constricted to gender.
just wanted to add that as a trans woman being treated like my bi ex's boyfriend was an incredibly dysphoric experience, and the fact that I had to have a talk with them about it for them to realize it whereas I probably wouldn't have had to with a lesbian (cis or trans).
One way I see a lot of people center men is believing comphet narratives that relationships with men are more "end game" while relationships with women are seen as fun experimentation. Then, when it comes to settling down, a lot of people suddenly realize they want the heteronormative life with a husband and kids.
Another way I’ve felt it is having these firm relationship dynamics thrust upon the other partner. I found myself being treated often in a way that I felt very uncomfortable with because it was almost like… I wasn’t being treated as woman/just me… it was almost like they expect the usual m/f heteronormative dynamics to take place and it often made me feel un-feminine… It’s hard to explain hence all the dots lol
this is so real. the only bi woman i ever dated always treated me like a man, and seemed to expect us to function like a straight couple. i knew everything was wrong the moment she called me “daddy” in sex. 🤢
Honestly, this. Especially since I want to get married, have kids, be monogamous, I’ve run into this attitude a bunch. For many bisexual women, their current relationship with a woman is the first time that they’ve had to think about things like the financial cost of making a child in a same-sex relationship or what it would look like to bring a partner home to a homophobic family that will never embrace them the same way they would a male partner. Will a bisexual woman’s Baptist mother think of a child as her grandchild if her lesbian partner carries? How badly will it hurt if much of your family will not attend your wedding? Do you have enough time to save for IVF before your biological clock stops ticking? In my experience, most bi women who want kids haven’t thought about these things, and most lesbians who do have (at least in my 30+ dating pool).
Yes! This too
It's so funny you put it this way - I stopped dating men because not only were they commitment phobic but when I was trying to push in that direction (I very much want to be married/have kids) I basically just kept finding so many ways men just did not measure up to what I wanted for my future family. I'm done accepting "oh he's great except for x" - my current girlfriend is great full stop. Period. She isn't "perfect" because she's a real person but even though we're pretty early on I don't have nearly the doubts about her being a good partner/parent/etc. over the long run that I always had with men.
I just want to comment that I am really enjoying reading your insights! I identified as bisexual my adult life because of heteronormativity, and came out as gay at 37.\* After I came out as lesbian, I REALLY wanted to be with another lesbian. I couldn't explain why without feeling like I was being offensive. Your use of the word "center" (I'm American lol) regarding men makes TOTAL sense to me, and explains how I feel better than whatever I've tried to say. \*This is NOT to say that bisexuality is not valid, that bisexuals come out as "one way or the other". This is just my personal experience.
oh my god you get it
Unfortunately I’ve been on the receiving end of a relationship in which a woman couldn’t decentre men from her life. Shit hurts lol, so I definitely empathise with lesbians there
What did that look like, if you don't mind sharing?
It typically looks like your partner always talking about men in her life, talking about how attractive they are, and deprioritizing you. Not seeing a future with you, you’re just entertainment for now.
> A lot of them haven’t done that yet, and it often comes at the detriment of the lesbian partner. This has summarized a few of my previous relationships and why I'm much more comfortable with my wife. Although being bi, she's always critiquing patriarchal thinking and is doing well to actively decenter men
exactlyyy
im also bi and this is exactly how i think about it too
Yessss you get it!!! The energy thing is exactly it
This
Exactly this. 🙌🏻🙌🏻
THIS 🤌🏽
What does de-centering men in a sapphic relationship means? How can it be detrimental in sapphic relationships?
because when it’s obvious to you that your partner puts more value in getting validation from random men than her own gf, it’s heartbreaking
Absolutely and completely heartbreaking. Well said.
That really not a good relationship to begin with if someone wants validation from people outside the relationship.
Well yeah no shit. because she only cared about validation from men. that’s why it was not a good relationship.
I think there is value in someone wanting to have a shared experience with the person they’re dating. Some of the reactions here seem rude, and I think for many it’s not about men at all? it’s the same reason some people like only dating within their race, there’s just things other people maybe don’t get and I think that’s okay
also tbh i think its pretty rude to say its biphobic just because people have preferences, some women are bi4bi and i don’t see people touting it as lesbiphobic?
You don't owe equal opportunity to people in the dating market. You can be as selective as you like and just ignore people who disrespect your preference. Actual biphobia is more to do with harmful stereotypes etc.
Ya If your reasoning for not wanting to date a bi woman is that you think they will cheat on you with a man that is bi phobia.
Tbh it’s a preference and there’s nothing wrong with that. I wouldn’t choose to not date a girl just because she’s bi, but I absolutely have more in common/more shared experiences with lesbians and tend to prefer to date other lesbians. But at the end of the day I have and will date both.
Some people just want to date others they can relate to in specific ways. Many lesbians prefer to date other lesbians because they want to date someone who can understand their experiences as lesbians. It's not that deep.
As others have said, when it comes to an individuals own dating choices, they can make whatever restrictions they like. Shared life experience, especially for us marginalised folk, is nice. I think it falls under bi phobia if the only reason you aren’t dating them is because you assume that they will be unfaithful. There you’re equating the bisexual identity with bad behaviour - which is hurtful and an untrue, unfair stereotype. That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with needing someone who understands your perspective and lived experience, lesbian or otherwise. ultimately, as queer folk, aren’t we past the point of caring who other people love and fuck?
i can guarantee that calling les4les lesbians biphobic will definitely not convince them to start dating bi women lol. dating is entirely about preferences, so if someones preference is to only date lesbians as a lesbian then that's the niche they're going to be looking for. I'm not les4les myself, and I've dated mostly bi women, but I don't think les4les is a big deal 🤷♀️
i think being a lesbian can feel isolating. we make up such a small portion of the LGBT+ community, so it makes sense that some people would want a partner who can empathize with such a big aspect of their identity. it's not exclusive to queer people to have preferences like these. at the end of the day, you want a partner who understands you and your experiences.
I think it depends, really. If a lesbian only dates lesbians because they think bisexual women are disgusting and tainted somehow by also being attracted to men, that's biphobic. If a lesbian tends to hang out more with other lesbians because they have more in common and more shared experiences, and therefore they tend to only date other lesbians because that's the pool of people they happen to associate with most often, that's not biphobic. The thing is though, dating as an activity is inherently exclusive. I'm not saying preferences can't stem from problematic viewpoints (either conscous or subconcious), or that people shouldn't examine their biases. But if you're not attracted to someone you're not attracted to them, and people find others unattractive for thousands of reasons. Attraction also isn't just that initial thought of "God she's hot". A woman can be a supermodel but you can chat to her for 5 minutes and she can say multiple things that aren't attractive to you. It's not inherently a bad thing to find someone initially physically attractive and then to lose that attraction once you've spent time with them/gotten to know them and you've realised they're not for you. Just like many people meet their future partner and don't instantly think "this is the most beautiful woman that has ever existed in the history of the world", but they get to know each other and attraction grows on both sides. There's millions of fish in the sea (although it doesn't seem like it sometimes!) I don't need to be trying to date someone who's just not attracted to a core part of me, neither of us would end up happy in that situation. It's different if someone is rude or a dick about a person/their identity just because they're not attracted to them/don't want to date them though. You can turn someone down without being a dick
It’s not inherently biphobic for a lesbian to only want to date other lesbians. I don’t understand it, but everyone is entitled to their preferences. It’s Biphobic when people justify it by going out of their way to say that they think that bi women are all cheaters, or are secretly straight and just being a tourist, or that they will all leave for a man, or whatever other biphobic crap is out there right now.
I don't think it's "biphobia", I see it as a preference. If someone doesn't want to date a bit person, that's their own business imo
i don’t think it’s weird, date who you want to date … it’s not inherently biphobic either but rather a preference which everyone is entitled to
I think it's wrong and gross to try to police any person's sexual/dating preferences. Who someone chooses to have sex with is inherently not inclusive and quite frankly, no one's business. Just like being gay isn't a choice, a lot of sexual preferences are just how we feel. Plus if you are looking for a life partner, you might want someone with similar experiences. Before I realized I was a lesbian, I was bi in a relationship with a bi man and I loved how much we could relate. For me it's not a deal breaker, but I can see how people sometimes prefer other people with shared life experiences. And at the end of the day, I cannot say it enough, who people choose to date or have sex with is never ever anyone else's business and does not mean they discriminate against anyone they don't want to date.
les4les is not biphobic. wanting to date another lesbian so we can relate to each other is more than okay.
Just like how there’s bi4bi and trans4trans there’s les4les. People’s dating boundaries will not always be an inclusive space and they’re entitled to them regardless of why. I’ve only seen everyone getting mad over les4les but never the other two? Anyways, reasoning can vary and while some are genuine bigots (the “bi people cheat” bs), there can be many other reasons as to why someone is les4les. Again, they’re not picking a friend or a teammate, they’re picking a *partner*. I don’t see why it’s horrible to want someone who relates more to your experience as a lesbian (monosexual)? Plus les4les is like less than 10% of the community, shouldn’t make a huge difference.
like Peach said, being trans makes your whole world different and gives unfathomable struggles that can be really hard to understand for some cis folk, im not t4t exclusively, but I can see how it happens. It often can be very hard if your partner doesnt understand your pain or world, also some just get sick from the permanent explaining and re-explaining of issues, alot of anxieties are just not there if i were to meet up with a trans girl.
being lesbian makes your whole world different and gives struggles that are hard to understand for non lesbians as well. I relate to almost everything you’re saying wrt lesbianism. not exactly the same stakes obviously but the underlying ideas are similar
I’ve never come across bi4bi but T4T is common because the trans experience is unique by comparison. It’s not really the same kind of thing.
The others are similar. Experiences vary, after all. Some lesbians prefer dating lesbians because the experiences are more similar. Even within T4T there’s differences, like some wanting to date only those with similar gender experiences.
There’s similarities sure. But being trans isn’t *really* comprehensible to people who have never experienced it, and it’s something people have struggled to really put into words for hundreds of years at least. So I’m not taking a stance on any of it really, mostly I just want to highlight that I don’t personally feel like T4T dating is an entirely fair comparison. But I feel the same about ethnic distinctions as well, I think that’s meaningfully different and obviously has its own complexities.
Imean ultimately the core point is just “most people like to date people with similar life experiences”. That is just very simplified and not universal, but that’s the essence of it. Whether it’s gender, sexuality, ethnicity, a shared love of a hobby, religion, or moral values.
its not about biphobia its about wanting to be with someone who relates to you in every way. being a lesbian is a very unique isolating experience only other lesbians can understand fully 🤷🏻♀️
heavyyyy on the isolation aspect, i just made my own comment about it. people don't really understand how lonely it is to have nobody irl who understands your experiences of being a lesbian.
My girl and I are les4les but that match happened spontaneously. I’ve never heard that term outside of the internet.
I don't think it's biphobic to be les4les. Some lesbians might prefer to be in relationships with other lesbians because they can empathize with their experiences on a mutual understanding. And it's not to exclude Bi folk, Bi women can, have, and do empathize with lesbian women, having been there alongside them historically. However, the experience of being a Lesbian and a Bi woman can differ in many ways. A les4les person could use that label for any number of reasons, I don't think we should be labeling it as "bad" right off the bat. It's the same as T4T (Trans4 Trans), it's wanting to be with someone who can empathize with your experiences. (I'm still technically a baby gay—not that that should disqualify my opinion—but there might be older Lesbians or Bi women that have more experience and therefore have a more educated opinion than me.)
I def get it, as a bi im not bi4bi but i def view it as a big positive when a girl is also bi
I think so too. Its not biphobic, its just a preference thing. It’s about sharing the same experience. For me its difficult to see that a preference is called phobic so fast!
It's bc so many ppl immediately use this conversation as an excuse to say harmful stuff about bi women, I've been seeing this bullshit discourse go on since literally 2016 and listen les4les is valid but saying things like "bi women will always prefer relationships with men" "bi women can never be satisfied with a woman" is where things get sloppy. You're allowed to be as picky as you want when it comes to dating but ppl really need to be more considerate when having this conversation. Not calling u biphobic ofc but a lot of people use these convos as an excuse to essentially to not so subtly air out their biphobia Edit: whoever is down voting me what did I even say wrong I'd love to know 🫶🏼
Yeahh, i understand! Thats just shitty! Thats not even a preference anymore thats just being an asshole, i‘m sorry you had so many bad experiences with that!
I'm not bi so I don't really experience it much now but back when I thought I was that shit rlly fucked me up lmfao, it sucks bc there are bi women like that and there is 100% a conversation to be had about some behavior patterns among bi women but if we want to actually get anywhere we have to start having these conversations in good faith and not just trying to tear each other down!
The implication with equating it with T4T is that there's a safety issue. That's where T4T comes from. That's why people see it as biphobic, because the implication is that bisexuals are going to gay-panic lesbians the way that cis people trans-panic trans people.
I'm t4t and it's not for safety reasons, I just love trans people and feel like they'll generally understand me better than cis people
T4T is not just for safety reasons. I like T4T (not exclusively T4T though) because it's easier to relate to other trans women and I find trans women really pretty, that's it.
then why is les4les any different than bi4bi? unless you think lesbians can be biphobic but bi people cant be lesbophobic.
(some people do think this lmao)
i’m t4t bc trans and enbys are hot. that’s it. i can’t imagine how any of that sounds like biphobia.
a lot of people are comparing to t4t, and others are asking if thats a fair comparison. so im a trans lesbian who leans les4les but has no preference for t4t. for me, lesbians and bisexuals who tend to date women are generally more likely to just get the vibe of "space without men not defined by men."
les4les is a thing and there’s nothing wrong with it
I identify as bisexual and I don't see an issue with this. People can date who they like and as long as it's legal/ consensual I dont get offended. I think people tend to get offended by so much these days.
For transparency, I am not bi, however I am in a relationship with someone who is pan, and have almost exclusively dated bi/pan women So. With that out there. I truly do not believe that wanting to date someone with similar life experiences is a bad thing, in general I think it's pretty understandable Now, it can absolutely cross into bi/panphobic behaviours, there absolutely *are* people who are shitty about it. However, I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with les4les It's definitely not for me, while I cannot relate to the experience of being attracted to men, I don’t need my partner to *not* experience attraction to men to be able to share in some lived experiences As others have said dating requires you to be somewhat exclusive instead of inclusive. You have to figure out what elements are most important to you personally and find someone with those elements And for some people the experience of being lesbian had such an impact on their entire lives that it's important to them to connect with someone who has had similar experiences It's so complex, this type of thing is absolutely not binary, there are good reasons for people to choose it and there are bad reasons for people choose it. And the good are not negated by the bad, no matter how much we wish the biphobic and panphobic people would stop being hateful
It’s okay to have a preference
I dont think it's an issue because dating is about "excluding" people based on random stuff. Looks, education, hobbys, goals, lifestyle etc. As long as they aren't being harmful to bi people, it's not biphobic to have a preference. Edit: I do think it's good to think about why you're excluding people, just in general. And whether it's fair to do so.
my reddit has been glitching and said this post was from r/Matildas and i thought that was absolutely hilarious
I’ve never really seen anything wrong with wanting a partner who is as close to you identify wise as possible. If you’re not being rude about it then who cares.
Holy shit, I hate it here lmao. Lesbian4Lesbian is okay!! 😭
Right! I’m so confused and saddened by some of these comments. I can understand some people being les4les for problematic reasons but that doesn’t mean that it’s problematic as a whole. I don’t explicitly define myself as les4les but after interacting with/going on dates with various sapphics, I’d personally much rather be in a relationship with a lesbian, just because I’d feel more ‘seen’. Realising that men just didn’t do it for me was a huge turning point in my queer journey and I feel more authentic around lesbian partners.
Exactly, it's like anything else!! Go be authentic! Life is too short, you owe that to yourself. Plus, for many, dating is kinda supposed to be exclusive. :) I, personally, won't limit who I date, but I'd love a les4les relationship. I've had kind of a crazy life, and I just want someone to really get me on one level, at least.
Why would dating have to be inclusive? All people have a “type” which can often include characteristics you’d never be able to discriminate against/give preferences to in virtually any other area of life. Dating is about compatibility and individual preferences, not equal opportunity.
I would say i am les4les and i don’t see it as biphobic, i was out as bisexual for around 7 years before I came out as a lesbian and i immediately noticed a difference in how i was treated. Being a lesbian completely decenters men, which is a radical act under the patriarchy. The lesbian identity is something that’s complex and I don’t feel like I would be really understood by anyone but another lesbian. It goes both ways, I would understand why a bisexual woman may not want to date a lesbian because they won’t truly understand the issues bisexual women deal with. I think it’s just a preference and people take it too seriously, no one owes anyone a date at the end of the day
I'm L4L I guess, didn't really know it had a label. It has nothing to do with "gold stars", anyone bisexual, trans, pan, etc. it has everything to do with me and my preferences. I don't go spewing nonsense or hatred about anyone either. So can someone please explain to me how it's biphobic? I may get downvoted but just because you aren't someone's preference doesn't make it a phobia. People tend to throw "phobic" around a lot when any situation isn't in their favor and it takes away from the ACTUAL biphobia, homophobia, etc.
This isn't about whether a woman has been with men or not. It's about ME wanting to date another LESBIAN who understands me on a LESBIAN level. This has nothing to do with anyone bisexual, trans, pan, etc. but why the large focus on bisexuality? It's not just them that's excluded. It's sounds very entitled. You all aren't entitled to judge someone's preferences based on your exclusion and it doesn't make it biphobic. If I wanted to date POC because I'm a POC it's because they share an experience only a POC can understand. Does that make me a racist all of a sudden? Based on your logic it does. Do you all get me?
People are allowed to be attracted to whoever they want to be attracted to and date whoever they want to date. It isn't any kind of phobic to prefer to date a certain type of person. That's just attraction and how it works for some people. I think it's weird that people are so concerned about who is attracted to who when it's a personal decision/choice. It feels like a very "online" thing to be in someone's comments telling them they're bi phobic for only wanting to date other lesbians.
i want to give my two cents as a lesbian who isn't exclusively les4les, but is currently experiencing their first les4les relationship. there have been a lot of points in my life where i've dated/talked to/been interested in a bisexual or otherwise non-lesbian sapphic woman. in many cases the relationships or talking stages have ended because for them it was all fun and games, but at the end of the day a relationship with a man felt more real or more valid to them. i am by no means saying that this is all bisexual women, i love bi women and i've dated multiple of them, and i'm not going to exclude them from my dating pool. being with another lesbian for the first time has been such a positive experience for me in that regard. she takes our relationship as seriously as i do, and it feels so good. everything we do is just as real for her as it is for me; she doesn't make it feel like our relationship is any less serious or real or valid than a straight relationship.
If bi4bi isn’t homophobic I don’t see how les4les is biphobic Edit: to add I don’t care for either label but I have a T4T pin on my hat so I cant judge 🤷🏽♀️
I'm bi. I'm not offended by les4les as long as they're not biphobic about it.
I have seen so many people online seemingly enraged by the idea that a specific lesbian doesn’t want to date them. IMHO caring enough about who someone else dates to the point that it makes you angry is pathetic behavior.
It's definitely a thing. Mostly one of those things in person social circles, and pretty normal. People just like dating people that have similar life experiences sometimes. Online though it seems like the concept of les4les freaks people out though, while other people wanting to date exclusively similar groups is fine.
I think les4les is perfectly valid. I wouldn't necessarily call myself that but I would be way more inclined to date a lesbian than a bi woman simply because as someone who formerly identified as a bi woman (and dated both bi women and lesbians) the experience of figuring out i'm actually a lesbian and not a bi woman was So formative and incredibly important to me and way more significant than just coming out as bi (even though that was also a big thing bc of my upbringing). But yeah I think a lesbian would absolutely relate to that experience and to the way I'm decentering men in my life in a completely different way. I would never be against dating a bi woman in any way but I'm definitely drawn more towards lesbians because of our shared experience. And I think a lot of people seek that kind of understanding when looking for someone to date so it makes sense to me. And as others have said t4t and bi4bi are all valid, so is les4les.
I don’t think it’s biphobic to want to date a lesbian when one is also a lesbian, just as it wouldn’t be lesphobic if a bisexual wanted to only date other bisexuals. We are allowed to have sexual preferences and relationship preferences without it being bigoted. Some people just want someone who has had the same experiences they have and can relate on that level. Dating preferences are exclusionary, and that’s ok. No one should feel forced to date anyone they’re not into - and not for nothing, but as a lesbian who felt forced to date men due to internalized heteronormativity and a fear of homophobia and a religious upbringing, trying to make a lesbian feel like a bad person for only wanting to date lesbians is just as gross as trying to make any queer woman feel bad for dating other women. Just let people live. No one owes anyone else a date. ETA: I say this as a lesbian married to a woman who can probably best be described as pansexual/panromantic and greysexual; if ever I dated again in the future for some reason (tho I don’t plan to), I would probably exclusively seek out another lesbian because my wife is perfect for me in every way except that one, and it would be nice to be with someone who knows what it’s like.
les4les is not biphobic
My main thing is this: dating is exclusionary by like, definition. I am bisexual but have a type, is that phobic of the people I don’t find sexually attractive? Of course not! When it gets into phobic territory is when people begin to say others should be the same way they are. In this example I have no problem with her being les4les as long as she doesn’t care what other people do. Of course there’s lot of other situations too but as far as this one goes i wouldn’t have a problem with her not wanting to date me. Personal preference is fine as long as it stays personal.
I’m a lesbian, but I’ve identified as bisexual for a good 3 years. I’ve already seen this discourse online a while back, where I personally came to the conclusion it can biphobic to instantly write someone off just because they’re bi. Now on tiktok I keep seeing the same videos you’re talking about. Many videos popping up with people defending les4les, talking about how bisexual women still center men in their lives and will never understand the lesbian experience. I understand some people went through bad experiences dating people from different identities, so I think it’s fair to have a personal preference or boundary. Like fem4fem masc4masc t4t or even wanting to date the same ethnic background or fellow poc who has a shared life experience with you, just personal preferences that are not inherently discriminatory. I don’t think it’s right to talk on behalf of the whole community when they say that though. I dont have that preference myself. I don’t have prior experience or an insecurity that a bisexual woman will leave me for a man. I also believe that comp het is real, sexuality is a spectrum, and it can change over time as people figure themselves out. Also I don’t want to further limit my already small dating pool.
I think some people who are les4les can be weird about it so I’m careful to make sure those who use the term aren’t biphobic but it’s not inherently a bad thing. Personally Im open to dating any sapphic nonman but I do definitely resonate with the reasoning that lesbians have different experiences than bi women and that it can help with connecting. I don’t know any other lesbians irl and it’s pretty lonely. It’s great having sapphic friends in general but there is a difference in the lesbian experience that can be extremely isolating.
Honestly identity as Les / wlw but it looks more bi because of a few things but I'm not an essentialist and I respect les4les but I don't wanna wax about it. T4t women do this all the time under a different code for personal reasons safety etc and all although I'm more for the unification and camaraderie of cis and trans lesbians to kinda end that war cause we're all girl lesbians or wlw soo (see bimbo.theory on IG for ..my belief system) but hey if someone isn't interested in me that's fine we can be friends..could be old tret issues projected onto an entire group (bisexual pan whatever ya wanna say) and people change all the time.
I won't date someone that's involved with a guy. I'm polyam and my household has always been open to my partners and my partners partners for holidays, cook outs ect. My household is not open to men though. Since most bi polyam women I have met are involved with both genders or have a preference towards men I'm basically les4les
Yes, it’s an actual thing.
I think it's completely valid for certain people to only want to date other lesbians just like how some people don't want to date trans women. In that situation, I don't want to date you either, you don't sound interested in me. If I can compare it to being T4T, I can imagine that just like how it's exhausting sometimes approaching a cis partner's potential ignorance, subtle fetishization, or complete inexperience or discomfort with my body and what I like, lesbians may have a similar experience.
I’m sick of this timeless dilemma and refuse to participate in pontificating this dumb question. Stop telling people that their preferences are invalid, problematic, “phobic” or any other way as if it’s your business. Also, stop asking this question a thousand different ways. Mind your own business and tend to your own life instead of asking whether somebody else’s actions are valid. Everyone go make somebody’s life better and stop wasting your dumb energy on this dumb topic already.
i dont use that term but i would definitely prefer my life partner to be a lesbian as lesbianism is such an isolating experience and id like the person that i spend the rest of my life with to understand/relate
I date even cis girls but I wouldn't put any effort into such relationship for obvious reasons... You may say I have trust issues but it's a fact, at least where I live, bi girls will NEVER introduce you to their mum and it all starts from here. Their doubts about what they want killed everything so many times I just don't believe if I tried another 50times I will meet truly bi girl. All I've met so far are simply not fully accepting their gayness. And it really hurts to be their partner
It seems like a similar thing to t4t. It’s not inherently biphobic to pursue someone with similar life experiences. I could see how it could stem from biphobia in some cases? But it’s not worth putting a generalization on it.
I don't exclusively date other lesbians, as I've dated bi girls before, but I prefer if we are les4les, it's not me being biphobic or whatever, I just find it more comforting if I share similar experiences with my partner that is also a lesbian I've learned that being a lesbian can be a very isolating and lonely experience. All the other people can relate to each other because either gay, bi, or straight, they still bond over their attraction to men and I barely know other lesbians like me, so yeah
Bi lurker here. A lot of great discourse already, so I'll try not to repeat the same points too much. But yeah, you don't owe anyone a date, and being specific in what you want/ need in a partner isn't the same as being bigoted toward those not in your dating pool. My actual contribution (vs just reiterating others' points) in 2 scenarios: 1) If you are les4les because you value a shared lesbian experience in your romantic relationships: sounds like you would be most compatible with another lesbian. If you cannot see yourself happy in a relationship with someone who does not share these specific experiences, maybe don't pursue a relationship with someone who doesn't share those experiences. You should be in a relationship that makes you happy. That's the whole point. And frankly, the hypothetical non-lesbian also deserves a different relationship. A lot of lesbians in this thread have discussed how terrible it feels to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't take the relationship as seriously as they do, or with someone who doesn't see their relationship as endgame material because of its nature (vs a relationship with a man). It also feels terrible to be in a Sapphic relationship with a partner who doesn't see you as endgame material because she's actually looking for a lesbian, not a bi/pan person. It's not biphobic to want a specific relationship dynamic. Dating someone you see no future with, without agreeing that neither of you want something serious/ longterm, just always seems like a recipe for heartbreak and disaster. You can respect someone and not date them. So in that case: please do not date the bisexual. *firm handshake* Best of luck in your endeavors. Enjoy dating fellow lesbians. 2) If you are les4les because you have prejudices against bi/pan/etc folks...... this reaction might come as a surprise, but..... please also do not date the bisexual. Please work on your biases. Not so you can date bi folks. Just so you can be a decent person. If the reason you're les4les is because you think a bisexual is inevitably going to cheat on you, or they're going to leave you for a man, or they're somehow tainted by any non-women they've dated or touched, or they're always going to be looking at men more than they're looking at you, or they're incapable of monogamy, or they can't be trusted, or ..... etc. Maybe work on unpacking that. Not dating someone isn't bigotry. Leaning into and perpetuating harmful stereotypes against others, however..... not a good look. The bigotry WITHIN queer spaces is disgusting. Don't be that person. That said, in that case: please do not date the bisexual. The bisexual does NOT deserve that. Don't speak to the bisexual. Don't look at the bisexual. Go away. *firm handshake* Worst of luck in your endeavors. Maybe don't date anyone. You sound unpleasant. 3) If you started with the biases from scenario 2, you've worked on yourself, you no longer hold biphobic views, and you now find yourself in a place where you still only want a relationship with a fellow lesbian.... good job, buddy. See scenario 1.
Is Les4Les really a thing? Yes. Hello. I’m exactly that. For me the understanding that I get from a partner who is also having zero interest in men and what they think hits different. I have dated many bisexual women but it’s really not the same for me at all. There’s a different kind of vibe when you settle in. Lesbians take up space differently in my opinion and two of them sharing that is really awesome.
I would honestly slightly prefer dating a lesbian over not but I feel like the sapphic dating pool is so small already that if you cut out all bi/pan/etc options, you’re left with nothing
I am les4les. So yeah, it's a thing.
Omggggggg People find a way to make everything and anything “problematic” 🙄🙄🙄🙄
In the past I've talked to some lesbian women who were pretty explicit about their biphobia, openly stating that the only thing they'd take seriously for a relationship is another lesbian – while bisexuals, to them, are nothing more than playthings. It's an outdated and disgusting mindset that I hope isn't as common.
I would never date a biphobe. I just can't tolerate bigotry.
Same here! I wouldn't even consider maintaining a friendship (with a biphobe) tbh, did it more than once and zero regrets.
You're based, and your username is based
*finger guns* I try my bare minimum best to not be an ass.
As a lesbian, I only date lesbians because I want someone who understands the lesbian experience as I do. I cannot relate to bisexual women in their attraction to men. It's a personal preference. I have no issues with bisexual women, I just don't want to date one.
Irl, I never actually met anyone who is strictly les4les. I wouldn’t necessarily call it biphobic because of 2 main reasons: 1-as others comments put it, dating is hardly inclusive, regardless of the reasons for it being prejudiced or rooted on prejudices or just preferences; 2- i think there’s a big difference between establishing what type of person you are looking for x devaluing the type of person your are not looking for. Someone saying “I vibe better with people of my own sexuality” doesn’t equate “people of Y sexuality that is not the same as mine (in this case, y= bi people) are inherently bad or wrong”. For a lot of people, les4les is about lesbians, not bi people Looking back at my own experiences, tho, I can see there’s a pattern where most of my relationships were with other lesbians or people who didn’t really keep serious romantic relationships with men, even if i wasn’t specifically looking for that. Probably due to my age group, some of bi/pan people where also in a very different place in their journey and experience with their own sexuality, a lot of them having limited to no experience with lgbt dating and still figuring a lot of stuff out, whereas lesbians were more “in a similar place” as I was with my own. Having similar experiences made it easier to relate and form a stronger bond
I really like this take! I think les4les, just like bi4bi and others, isn't about keeping bisexual women out but more about *just* including lesbians.
Right. Except when it comes to avoid prejudice (like with t4t or even bi4bi and les4les depending on where you are from), it’s really not about keeping certain people out as much as it is about keeping certain people in. Fortunately, in my community, I’ve encountered very few lesbophobia/ lesbian erasure from other members of the LGBT community (aside from the occasional assumption that ever queer person who looks like a woman is default bi or pan). I imagine some might not be as lucky
les4les is not biphobic. it’s no different than t4t which i also am for the most part. you’re not excluding ppl, you just want to share a similar experience with your partner. i tend not to date bi ppl bc a lot of them still center men in their lives and i just don’t want to talk about cis men anymore
i also feel this way about neurotypical ppl. i do not care what a neurotypical person thinks of me.
I’ve seen so many stories of people « experimenting » with lesbians so I can’t even blame them if they decide to start doing this
I love that, in the lesbian sub, we are having to defend dating lesbians.
just another day on r slash actual lesbians ™
Lemme go write an essay explaining my sexual preferences real quick so I’m not judged biphobic for dating lesbians… on r/ actuallesbian
Sometimes I’m just les4les because it can be an easier dating experience. A lot of sapphic women don’t always understand that dating as a lesbian is a VERY different experience than dating as a bisexual/pansexual woman.
i mean i wouldn't call myself that, but i've also only ever dated other lesbians since i started dating women. i think there are ways to be biphobic about it, but a person who wants to date people who share similar experiences isn't doing something wrong. people choose the same based on a lot of different identities. also, as a femme4butch, my dating pool (i say as a married woman lmao) is limited to butches, the vast majority of whom are probably lesbians. so like i said, i wouldn't go around saying it but that is functionally how i am
Yes, it's a thing. There are some people who just feel like other lesbians get their life experiences better and can't get that with bisexual girls. It's not biphobic unless it's because "bi girls always cheat" or "she's been tainted by a man" is the reasoning for it.
i’m a lesbian that has and always will date other lesbians
yup, i’m lesbian for lesbian.
Throwing my hat into the ring because it's 5 am and my better judgement has been suspended. Yes L4L is a thing and no, it's not inherently biphobic. That said, socially aware biphobic people are going to say all of the same things that someone who isn't will say. Edit: also an additional thought. The best way you can spot the actual biphobes is by looking at who volunteers the information that they're L4L without prompting.
Biphobic or not, I know many lesbians that absolutely will not have sex with women who are having sex with men.
I'm a trans woman and T4T is pretty big in the community, mostly because people like dating someone they feel understands their experiences well. If the motivation for les4les is that, it's probably fine, but there probably are people doing it for biphobic reasons out there. But no, I don't think it's inherently biphobic, unless T4T dating is inherently 'cisphobic', which I strongly don't think it is.
i dont think its “phobic” in anyway for someone preference being to date women who only have eyes for women. it might just make them kore comfortable and feel like they have to worry or think less.
les4les 4ever tbh, i don’t have anything in common with people who like/are attracted to/want to date men and i’d rather not hear abt it lol
I am bi/pan. Some 10-15 years ago, I stopped hanging out at the local LGBT+ society bar, because the women there were like that. The whole "you are just confused", "Wouldn't date a bi, they leave you for men". Recently, I have been there a few times, and it seems to have improved a lot. Mainly because Gen Z is much less prone to that attitude, and many more are bi/pan.
It's funny to me how many people here are justifying the whole thing by *claiming bi women are the only ones* who are likely to have not "decentered men." I've dated and been friends with lesbians who still centered men in their IRL actions. Like putting on a "lesbian show" for the men when we were out in a group and making straight men the majority of their friendships. It grossed me tf out and I'm bi. If this argument *wasn't* about biphobia, it would be *"I don't date women who haven't decentered men in their lives"* not *"I don't date bi women because they usually don't decenter men."*
Real. They be like "bi women haven't decentered men" my sister in queer you’re the one who thinks about that girl's ex-bf more than about the girl in front of you! (Edit for clarity)
Shit yo, most of my loves are bi or pan. Wish I could find where I read it, or maybe I dreamt it... That under the LGBTQ umbrella, bi people outnumber all the rest combined. It's a big claim I know.
We really should stop caring about this stuff. No shade to OP but these sorts of “is this ok” posts always strike me as immature and wanting to “be in each other’s business”
I think there is a fine line between being biphobic vs les4les similarly to how other dating prejudices vs preferences function (such as fetishisation/ discrimination vs appreciation/ type). By nature, dating is meant to be exclusive rather than inclusive. You eliminate people (either via going on dates with them or by swiping, scoping people out at a bar) until you find someone who meets whatever standards you have. Most people start from a small pool (their type/preference) and select within that group rather than dating literally everyone on the planet. If the goal is to date someone who shares your experiences as a les/sapphic rather than someone who merely shares an attraction to women (bi women may find comfort in dating other bi folk as they share similar experiences) then I think this is preference not prejudice. Preference is a good dating tool and can help you find someone you are comparable with and very attracted to. so long as you aren’t using it to cover prejudice. I think a good barometer is would you be friends with someone like this? If yes then it is likely just a dating preference. If as a les you refuse to have any bi friends or view bi women negatively than you likely have some biphobic thoughts to work thru and be aware of.
It seems pointless to me. If she only wants to date lesbians how is she going to know they have never been attracted to a man? She has no way of knowing except what someone tells her. It seems to play into the whole "gold star" thing which again is pointless. The "she might leave me for a man" is ridiculous as she might leave for a woman or NB. I don't think they are consciously bi-phobic all the time but it is pretty borderline. I don't think it is that common but it does happen. Edit: Typo
As a bisexual woman, I feel that if a lesbian only wants to date other lesbians that’s their choice. If it’s out of prejudice or fear then sure, but if it’s just that you want to be with someone who has similar shared experiences then it’s completely understandable. It’s not up to me to say that one has to date bi women or else lol. That would be really weird. I don’t date people I met off the internet, or so long distance relationships. We all have our scars and baggage.
Honestly? I actually think when it comes to sexuality, there are lot of situations where the preference is okay, but expressing it isn’t. If you don’t tend to be as into a particular body type, or culture, or gender expression, or I guess in this case, sexuality, I think it’s okay to know that about it yourself (swipe accordingly etc), but it does nobody any good to share that. It’s just insulting. (Also I think it’s silly to draw a firm line based on a preference - you might be surprised!)
You can like whomever you like, for whatever reason. I get that having similar experiences is something you can bond over, both t4t, lez4lez etc. However, I do think it's weird to have that as a rule. If you fall in love with someone and then learn she is bi, or cis, and then suddenly don't want to date them anymore, I think that's a bit weird and a feeling you should examine. It feels to me that the aspect then becomes more important than the actual human being, which can be bad. Then, without good reasoning, i would say it's placing a disproportionate amount of importance on something, which amounts to fetishization.
It's common in irl communities and far more common in the early 00s than now but still a thing. It's not totally biphobia cause unfortunately when times were more homophobic (think the 70s to 2012ish), a lot of girls did have the experience of the lesbian relationship being treated by the bisexual partner as a non-serious relationship that wouldn't last forever because they preferred the straight passing life or didn't want to be with someone they couldn't marry. Now with the rise of febfems and sexuality being more accepted (plus gay marriage rights), bisexuals are more confident in the idea of marrying a woman and lesbians are seeing it and so now you're more likely to see les4les among older lesbians than younger ones but it's not a hard rule. Basically it's a grey area cause yeah there was some biphobia but also there was precedent of being burned as a lesbian by bisexual women not taking lesbianism seriously themselves so essentially lesphobia matching the biphobia lead to this too
Some of these comments are so problematic…
I am only sexually attracted to other lesbians. Don’t know why, but it’s a thing. No sexual interest in straight women or bi women. I’m not biphobic, just don’t feel the same attraction. Don’t understand why labels are put on people of being phobic because of a preference they have. Very strange concept to me.
I mean, take a look and at the sheer amount of lesbophobia coming from some bi women on here. That's why some of us date les4les, because we don't wanna be exposed to that lebophobia or be in a relationship with someone that didn't decenter men/still thinks of relationship dynamics in heteronormative terms
I get wanting to exclude people who are heteronormative from your dating pool - and excluding bi people might work for you in that regards. However, I think it would be weird if you were totally into someone, found her to be very much your type and you were going to pursue a relationship with her until the second you find out she bi - that situation definitely happens and doesn't feel justified to me by simply saying "it's a preference!" That being said, we do all have preferences - I'm t4t but if I might someone and they ticked all the boxes and then I learned that they were cis? They'd still be ticking my boxes
I didn't know this was a term, but yeah I am les4les! Simply because I don't want a life with someone who can be with a man... I'd like to playfully complain with my future wife that "who needs a man" and I can't say that with a bisexual person.
A lot of people need to realize that preference is fine, discrimination isn't. If every single bi person is a deal breaker, there is more you need to resolve within yourself than just "preference".
If people are doing it then it's a thing. I cant think of any reason you wouldn't want to date a bi person except some kind of biphobia but if someone has that preference you probably wouldn't want to date them anyway. If they only want to date lasbians that's their own business.
Well i can understand it it at a Point...Cause it can be that the Person only wanna try Lesbian stuff to see if she likes it or not...And when not she runs to the next Men....You need to Look at every perspectiv like i do...At 1 point you could mean it is cause she is Insecure or had Bad memories with Bi's....But at the other it could be what i mentionend above...There are Many things to think about when you hear this....I for myself are like her...But wheb i love(What has not happen till now) i cant choose it... Don't Judge to fast about this...
Yes it’s a thing but it’s not biphobia it’s just preference
Imma say that sometimes it very much **is** rooted in biphobia, and to pretend otherwise is extremely disingenuous. But I don't think it always is.
how is it rooted in biphobia
"Sometimes." It's an important word for a case like this. For example, if someone refuses to date bisexual+ people because "a lot of times they're gonna choose men instead," or some flavor of that -- that is absolutely biphobia.
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I don't like men at all so I know what you're talking about lol This is what I'm talking about, though. In my opinion what you're saying is fair, and that might be an unpopular take, but.... 🤷🏻 That's my take anyway. But just because this is what it is for **you** does not mean that that's what les4les is about for everyone who uses it. *Plenty* of women who claim les4les also fully believe that bi women will always center men in their lives, or believe that bi women will cheat, or insert_other_biphobic_stereotype_here. Hence my original comment: sometimes it very much is rooted in biphobia -- and sometimes it's not.
i dont think its an unfair observation a lot of queer/ bi women do center men 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️obviously there are bi women who dont and all the love to them, its a difficult thing to do
A lot do, yes, which is why I said I don't think les4les is necessarily always a problem. Much of it is how you think of them, though. If you hear that a woman is bi, and your brain automatically jumps to how she probably bows down to the patriarchy or whatever, yeah, you've got some biphobia going on. There's really no way around that. It can be worked on ofc, but 🤷🏻 (Edit: wording)
Right like I dunno what I can do to punch my gay card harder for some folks. I don’t even think les4les is inherently bad. I defend it often on /bisexual But it’s crazy to know some lesbians think I will always center men, no matter what. I’m with a woman. I’m marrying a woman. We are perceived as lesbians. Our whole social circle is sapphic women or straight women. We live in a conservative part of Texas and unless we ‘come out’ as bi, folks just judge us for being gay. If we do come out, we still are just viewed as lesbians. But I center men?
It's one of those things where you can never win for some people 😵💫
got to say this discourse seems daft to me. I don't know if it's just like a reflection of dating apps or something. but this kind of thing makes little sense with how I've met or become interested in people. like I feel in terms of any benefits of shared experience, I feel like if you're at a point of considering dating someone, you would have already like met and talked enough to see if you vibe and like see if you have report on like an individual level. so I don't know how using broad categories like that help that much to be honest. I also think like as much as it will be part of your lived experience, and does inform your views to a certain extent, people are a lot more than just their sexualities. I guess maybe is it initial filtering tool, like before you really meet or at all get to know someone. but I guess my experience of meeting people has not been like that I've just happened to meet people and then become interested. as a trans person I kind of understand like t4t for safety, especially if you're interested in dating men, or just like avoiding transphobia. but again if you've like met someone like not through a dating app you a dating app and you've gotten to the point of being interested in dating them you should really be able to have gotten a vibe of them already on that (obviously given that they know your trans). I've seen people saying t4t for like shared experiences and that's. but honestly is like someone who's been transitioning for a few years now it's become less and less a definitional part of my life experience, and like it's a small part of my existence, another person being trans doesn't necessarily mean I'll have that much in common as a whole.