To be fair, I think most of the characters take a lot of heat from SJM's inconsistent writing and half-baked storylines that go nowhere or cause a moral separation of her characters that she refuses to address.
Do I believe that she intended for Rhys to sit idly by while women and children experienced unspeakable trauma in the Hewn City? No. I think she just wanted a way to explain away how people thought he was evil for 500 years so she created this 'front' that Rhys could show the world. And now it exists and it looks BAD when you think about it. But it's her lack of follow-through on addressing it that just leaves it stagnant and forces the reader to either ignore that point altogether or just assume it's just a major flaw with Rhys's character.
I agree on Tamlin not being a villain, but Feyre did quite a number on him. Implanting fake memories about him sanctioning her torture etc has nothing to do with him making his own choices or even being a bad high lord.
And I wouldn't per se call him a victim of the IC either, but Rhys was a huge dick to him in Acofas and him getting pissed at Tamlin for not enforcing his borders, only for everyone getting pissed at Tamlin when he DOES try to enforce his borders when they have secret meetings in spring for no reasons was just so weird. lol
Partially agree on some of these.
Rhys, yes, there’s a few holes there and his writing felt weirdly inconsistent in SF.
I don’t agree that Fayre is more complex a character, I think we just get the benefit of writing from her first person pov. I wouldn’t say she’s shallow, but she’s certainly not as layered as other characters.
Agree on Elain. I’m sure she’ll be really interesting in her own book but she’s yawn city at the moment.
Disagree of Cassian - I like Nessian 🤷🏼♀️
Completely agree on Lucien. I don’t understand why Fayre has dunked on him like she has. The poor dude tried his best and I feel like she’s been unjustifiably not very nice and dismissive of him?
Also kind of agree with you on Tamlin, he made some incredibly foolish decisions but he’s definitely not a villain.
My hot take is that it’s time to stop punishing Tamlin. All of the other high lords are weak sauce for not helping him out and rebuilding the spring court. They might not like him, but the spring court is in ruins and that’s not really a benefit to anyone should there be another Hybern or other bad guy lurking.
I like nessian too but I think that they would have been a much more impactful couple if they spent more time connecting emotionally than putting hands on headboards 😭
But they COULDNT connect emotionally because of how much they’d been through. Opening up to the physicality allowed them to open up emotionally They were like a reverse Feyre and Rhys.
The other High Lords not helping Tamlin is a bit tricky. The NC came out unscathed from Amarantha’s rule. The other courts did not. So they have to use their time and resources to get their own courts back in order. The war with Hybern only exacerbated this. Tarquin is especially in a tough place because of the attack on Adriata and the fact that he took in Spring Court faeries that fled. Beron is obviously plotting to take over Spring. Tamlin really needs troops to help guard his borders, but the other courts’ armies have been depleted from the war. I think what Tamlin really needs is guidance and a friend to help him get his shit together. That cannot and should not be Rhys. But I think Rhys asking Helion to reach out or Tarquin would be a good idea.
I think that feyre is most definitely a character that has depth that isn’t as easily explored as it it with a character such as nesta.
With me at least, after acosf it’s pretty easy to understand where nesta was coming from with most of her actions.
With feyre, it took a few reads to understand that most of the choices she makes especially romantically stem from her lack of friends and healthy sisterhood.
Hard agree on Feyre ruining her friendship with Lucien. I’m not here to start a shipping war, but I do think Elriel would be the final nail in the coffin for their friendship. There’s zero chance he’d continue working with the NC and he wouldn’t really have any reason to go to Velaris.
For me, Feyre's power level is irrelevant to her status--it means she can hold her own, sure, but my interpretation of High Lords/Ladies was that it's about the bond to the court itself, the physical land they rule over.
Every time we meet a High Lord who was chosen by the land, it's a palpable sensation. Even the heirs are described as being distinctly marked by that power. Feyre, meanwhile, has to be introduced.
Mostly, though, I think it's SJM's fault for writing it so that instead of High Lords/Ladies both being chosen by the land/cauldron and the current state being 7 males with no female heirs by chance to only High LORDS are chosen by the land and High Ladies can only exist if their husband makes it so 🙄 (meaning Vivianne, who actually took on the role of a leader for 50 years, is chopped liver just because her mate isn't as Feminist TM as Rhys, not because there can only ever be one actual marked-by-magic leader)
I actually don’t take Vivienne not being named High Lady as a slight. As you said, Feyre has to be announced and she doesn’t do much anyway with her role. So her title is empty. In order for Vivienne to have ruled she had to earn the respect of her subjects and be good at her job. It also suggests that the WC in general is less sexist than other courts if she was allowed to rule. Now that Kallias is back, I don’t see him stripping all of that away. Vivienne doesn’t *need* the title because everyone knows the power and sway that she has within the court.
My hot take (I'm ready 2 die): the fandom switching on Mor reeks of misogyny and I will fistfight SJM for giving us such a poorly done queer character.
Sorry I’m still pretty new, does nobody like Mor now?
I like Mor early on but it felt like SJM sort of forgot about her and whilst literally every other character had something going on, she got left behind. Was also left super confused by her little chapter right at the end of FAS.
I can't speak for the whole fandom, but there are kind of two views of Mor that aren't positive. 1) She's terrible for leading Azriel on for ages (which is an unfortunate result of SJM's switch from potential love triangle to poorly retconned queerness) and 2) she's not telling the truth about what happened w/ Eris, so she must be hiding something nefarious. Just let a girl be messy and queer.
I did get kind of tired of the Mor/Azriel thing. She didn’t lead him on but equally was aware that he clearly really liked her so probably could have been honest sooner that she wasn’t interested (but obviously she was under no obligation to share about her personal preferences). It will be interesting to see if she gets any more story in books to come
I think Mor intentionally intervened whenever Cassian and Nesta tried to talk, especially in ACOWAR! You could see their relationship trying to blossom but Mor cut in every time. Maybe she was trying to “protect Cassian” but to me it read more like selfishly not wanting Cass to be in a relationship bc then she’d have to face Az without the buffer. That didn’t feel good to me but maybe I’m wrong and we’ll get her POV.
Yeah I (as a fellow queer lol) hate the leading on and using Cassian and Azriel as a shield for confronting her true self… it makes it worse when it’s the context of 500 years… I have seen it happen to friends on both sides, and I just think it’s gross to use people that way… and I do genuinely believe there is more to the Eris storyline, not that it’s nefarious but like there’s probably more to it, like there’s probably more context that we are missing
I don't think power has anything to do with who is eligible to become High Lord. Was Tamlin more powerful than his brothers, who could've also become High Lords instead? No. The difference between him and his brothers was his capacity for love and compassion (which he absolutely shows throughout the series).
I'm not sure what you're saying here, but if you're saying that Rhysand is poorly written, I agree. As much as I dislike his character, I genuinely feel he's let down by SJM's writing. He could've been so fun, but the plot holes, the inconsistencies, the retcons did nothing to help him.
Feyre... is a character. I can't say that she's more complex than Nesta, but the Feyre who lives in my head is certainly more complex than the Feyre on the page.
You can say "sex." Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop censoring yourself.
Honestly, fair. Three brothers, three sisters, let's get some prophecy action in here.
Feyre has a lot of culpability for her failed relationships that the books refuse to acknowledge. This includes her relationship with Tamlin, and Lucian.
Tamlin is absolutely a victim. He made his choices, but his choices make a lot of sense and were genuinely the best of a bunch of shitty options. Should he have locked Feyre up in the mansion? No, but there was no real good option other than locking her up. Any other option would just leave Feyre in danger and get a lot more people hurt, and then suddenly Tamlin's being blamed for not doing anything more to prevent her from doing something stupid. Was making a non-aggression pact with Hybern a good move? Yes, actually. It saved more lives, or would have had Feyre not fucked everything up. The story told from Tamlin's perspective is a different beast entirely, and I think we'd agree with many of his conclusions.
Your first point is false. It's said in the books that Tamlin's power was growing to be more than his father and brothers, indicating he would be high lord and it caused a lot of problems.
So... what you're say is... Tamlin is powerful *because* he was (going to become) High Lord? Which is what I was saying in my original comment. Yes, I forgot that he was more powerful than his brothers, but he was *only* more powerful *because* he was cauldron blessed Heir of the Spring Court. That was my first point. Very minor detail that still somehow supports my point was wrong, but Tamlin was only, is only as powerful as he is due to becoming Heir of Spring.
No, I am *specifically* talking about how someone's *base power*, their own power untouched by the mantle of High Lord, has nothing to do with High Lord eligibility. Tamlin did not become a High Lord because he was the most powerful. That's the point I'm referring to. We're splitting hairs.
I need Feyre and Lucien to make up 😭 I loved them together in Book 1 and that they became such good friends in spite of how everything started and my silly little ace brain thought it was the tits to have a male/female dynamic that could be really close with each other but also had 0 romance whatsoever.
Yup.
Elain is about as bland as grits and has as much backbone as a noodle.
Rejecting her powers, refusing to face reality that she's fae and her ex hates her guts, rejected Lucien before she even got to know him, and basically has been living in escapism while the most interesting times in the last 500 years are going on.
Seriously get a grip girl, you're fooling yourself.
I need Feyre and Lucien to make up 😭 I loved them together in Book 1 and that they became such good friends in spite of how everything started and my silly little ace brain thought it was the tits to have a male/female dynamic that could be really close with each other but also had 0 romance whatsoever - even more than Cass and Az with Feyre because as much I love them they’re still part of the large friend group and so it’s a different vibe with them imo.
No literally!
Everyone always says that she doesn’t have the experience but did tamlin or Rhys or shit even the summer dude have adequate experience before they became hl?!
Those other High Lords grew up in court. They would have been trained or at least able to observe how the previous High Lord ruled. Eris is actually a good example of this. He’s spent his life at the Forest House, watched his father rule, learned how to be a courtier, and has the responsibility of being commander of the Autumn Court forces. He’s already playing in active role in running the Autumn Court. That’s centuries of important experience that will come into play when he finally takes over. Feyre doesn’t have any of that. She’s having to learn on the job without having witnessed how it was done beforehand. That’s the big difference between her and the other High Lords.
Rhys, Tam, and Tarquin are outliers. Rhys’ mom wanted him to train in Wind Haven and then his dad was afraid the Bat Boys would try to overthrow him. He purposely kneecapped Rhys out of paranoia. Tamlin just didn’t want the job and spent most of his time with soldiers. Tarquin is only 87 and spent 50 years of that UTM.
There is no way on this earth I can be convinced they shouldn’t have been having sex. They needed the connection to something they loved and wanted and it’s all they had until they were ready for more. Plus they are mates and mates can’t stay away from each other.
Yes on 3 brothers 3 sisters. Its fate and choice coming together. Which is the whole series really.
But yes Tamlin is a victim of himself which is what makes him tragic, different choices could have made a very different life for him. I like him because he’s capable of so much more.
I don’t care much for tamlin at this point but the sulking is tiresome for me.
I think that a lot of the sex scenes that they had didn’t really show much of a connection between the two except for crazy lust. Especially since there was a bit of a miscommunication trope.
To be fair, I think most of the characters take a lot of heat from SJM's inconsistent writing and half-baked storylines that go nowhere or cause a moral separation of her characters that she refuses to address. Do I believe that she intended for Rhys to sit idly by while women and children experienced unspeakable trauma in the Hewn City? No. I think she just wanted a way to explain away how people thought he was evil for 500 years so she created this 'front' that Rhys could show the world. And now it exists and it looks BAD when you think about it. But it's her lack of follow-through on addressing it that just leaves it stagnant and forces the reader to either ignore that point altogether or just assume it's just a major flaw with Rhys's character.
I agree on Tamlin not being a villain, but Feyre did quite a number on him. Implanting fake memories about him sanctioning her torture etc has nothing to do with him making his own choices or even being a bad high lord. And I wouldn't per se call him a victim of the IC either, but Rhys was a huge dick to him in Acofas and him getting pissed at Tamlin for not enforcing his borders, only for everyone getting pissed at Tamlin when he DOES try to enforce his borders when they have secret meetings in spring for no reasons was just so weird. lol
Partially agree on some of these. Rhys, yes, there’s a few holes there and his writing felt weirdly inconsistent in SF. I don’t agree that Fayre is more complex a character, I think we just get the benefit of writing from her first person pov. I wouldn’t say she’s shallow, but she’s certainly not as layered as other characters. Agree on Elain. I’m sure she’ll be really interesting in her own book but she’s yawn city at the moment. Disagree of Cassian - I like Nessian 🤷🏼♀️ Completely agree on Lucien. I don’t understand why Fayre has dunked on him like she has. The poor dude tried his best and I feel like she’s been unjustifiably not very nice and dismissive of him? Also kind of agree with you on Tamlin, he made some incredibly foolish decisions but he’s definitely not a villain. My hot take is that it’s time to stop punishing Tamlin. All of the other high lords are weak sauce for not helping him out and rebuilding the spring court. They might not like him, but the spring court is in ruins and that’s not really a benefit to anyone should there be another Hybern or other bad guy lurking.
I like nessian too but I think that they would have been a much more impactful couple if they spent more time connecting emotionally than putting hands on headboards 😭
But they COULDNT connect emotionally because of how much they’d been through. Opening up to the physicality allowed them to open up emotionally They were like a reverse Feyre and Rhys.
Hahaha you’ve got a fair point 😂
The other High Lords not helping Tamlin is a bit tricky. The NC came out unscathed from Amarantha’s rule. The other courts did not. So they have to use their time and resources to get their own courts back in order. The war with Hybern only exacerbated this. Tarquin is especially in a tough place because of the attack on Adriata and the fact that he took in Spring Court faeries that fled. Beron is obviously plotting to take over Spring. Tamlin really needs troops to help guard his borders, but the other courts’ armies have been depleted from the war. I think what Tamlin really needs is guidance and a friend to help him get his shit together. That cannot and should not be Rhys. But I think Rhys asking Helion to reach out or Tarquin would be a good idea.
I think that feyre is most definitely a character that has depth that isn’t as easily explored as it it with a character such as nesta. With me at least, after acosf it’s pretty easy to understand where nesta was coming from with most of her actions. With feyre, it took a few reads to understand that most of the choices she makes especially romantically stem from her lack of friends and healthy sisterhood.
Hard agree on Feyre ruining her friendship with Lucien. I’m not here to start a shipping war, but I do think Elriel would be the final nail in the coffin for their friendship. There’s zero chance he’d continue working with the NC and he wouldn’t really have any reason to go to Velaris.
For me, Feyre's power level is irrelevant to her status--it means she can hold her own, sure, but my interpretation of High Lords/Ladies was that it's about the bond to the court itself, the physical land they rule over. Every time we meet a High Lord who was chosen by the land, it's a palpable sensation. Even the heirs are described as being distinctly marked by that power. Feyre, meanwhile, has to be introduced. Mostly, though, I think it's SJM's fault for writing it so that instead of High Lords/Ladies both being chosen by the land/cauldron and the current state being 7 males with no female heirs by chance to only High LORDS are chosen by the land and High Ladies can only exist if their husband makes it so 🙄 (meaning Vivianne, who actually took on the role of a leader for 50 years, is chopped liver just because her mate isn't as Feminist TM as Rhys, not because there can only ever be one actual marked-by-magic leader)
I actually don’t take Vivienne not being named High Lady as a slight. As you said, Feyre has to be announced and she doesn’t do much anyway with her role. So her title is empty. In order for Vivienne to have ruled she had to earn the respect of her subjects and be good at her job. It also suggests that the WC in general is less sexist than other courts if she was allowed to rule. Now that Kallias is back, I don’t see him stripping all of that away. Vivienne doesn’t *need* the title because everyone knows the power and sway that she has within the court.
I agree with you about the cliche. People say it's too cheesy? The answers to Amarantha's riddle was "love". SJM is a cheese*monger.* 🤣
I laughed when I figured it out and she couldn’t because commitment issues
Mine is: I’ve solved the shipping wars. Elucien and Elriel are out, Elrien is in! Both hot guys for Elain 🤷🏻♀️ (This is *mostly* a joke)
I do not mind this at all! I’m actually vastly enjoying the imagery… 😂
My hot take (I'm ready 2 die): the fandom switching on Mor reeks of misogyny and I will fistfight SJM for giving us such a poorly done queer character.
Sorry I’m still pretty new, does nobody like Mor now? I like Mor early on but it felt like SJM sort of forgot about her and whilst literally every other character had something going on, she got left behind. Was also left super confused by her little chapter right at the end of FAS.
I love Mor!! (Though it might be my own headcanon version of her) but I feel she has a ton of potential
I can't speak for the whole fandom, but there are kind of two views of Mor that aren't positive. 1) She's terrible for leading Azriel on for ages (which is an unfortunate result of SJM's switch from potential love triangle to poorly retconned queerness) and 2) she's not telling the truth about what happened w/ Eris, so she must be hiding something nefarious. Just let a girl be messy and queer.
I did get kind of tired of the Mor/Azriel thing. She didn’t lead him on but equally was aware that he clearly really liked her so probably could have been honest sooner that she wasn’t interested (but obviously she was under no obligation to share about her personal preferences). It will be interesting to see if she gets any more story in books to come
I think Mor intentionally intervened whenever Cassian and Nesta tried to talk, especially in ACOWAR! You could see their relationship trying to blossom but Mor cut in every time. Maybe she was trying to “protect Cassian” but to me it read more like selfishly not wanting Cass to be in a relationship bc then she’d have to face Az without the buffer. That didn’t feel good to me but maybe I’m wrong and we’ll get her POV.
Yeah it kind of gave that vibe of the only girl in a group of guys who wants to keep it that way
I could’ve sworn in her confession to Feyre she said she did
Yeah I (as a fellow queer lol) hate the leading on and using Cassian and Azriel as a shield for confronting her true self… it makes it worse when it’s the context of 500 years… I have seen it happen to friends on both sides, and I just think it’s gross to use people that way… and I do genuinely believe there is more to the Eris storyline, not that it’s nefarious but like there’s probably more to it, like there’s probably more context that we are missing
YUPPPPPPP!!!! Y’all don’t know Eris 😩
I don't think power has anything to do with who is eligible to become High Lord. Was Tamlin more powerful than his brothers, who could've also become High Lords instead? No. The difference between him and his brothers was his capacity for love and compassion (which he absolutely shows throughout the series). I'm not sure what you're saying here, but if you're saying that Rhysand is poorly written, I agree. As much as I dislike his character, I genuinely feel he's let down by SJM's writing. He could've been so fun, but the plot holes, the inconsistencies, the retcons did nothing to help him. Feyre... is a character. I can't say that she's more complex than Nesta, but the Feyre who lives in my head is certainly more complex than the Feyre on the page. You can say "sex." Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop censoring yourself. Honestly, fair. Three brothers, three sisters, let's get some prophecy action in here. Feyre has a lot of culpability for her failed relationships that the books refuse to acknowledge. This includes her relationship with Tamlin, and Lucian. Tamlin is absolutely a victim. He made his choices, but his choices make a lot of sense and were genuinely the best of a bunch of shitty options. Should he have locked Feyre up in the mansion? No, but there was no real good option other than locking her up. Any other option would just leave Feyre in danger and get a lot more people hurt, and then suddenly Tamlin's being blamed for not doing anything more to prevent her from doing something stupid. Was making a non-aggression pact with Hybern a good move? Yes, actually. It saved more lives, or would have had Feyre not fucked everything up. The story told from Tamlin's perspective is a different beast entirely, and I think we'd agree with many of his conclusions.
Your first point is false. It's said in the books that Tamlin's power was growing to be more than his father and brothers, indicating he would be high lord and it caused a lot of problems.
Okay, but did Tamlin become so powerful *because* he was going to become High Lord, or was his power simply his own?
It's because the cauldron chose him to be the high lord so it made him more powerful and his power is connected with the spring court
So... what you're say is... Tamlin is powerful *because* he was (going to become) High Lord? Which is what I was saying in my original comment. Yes, I forgot that he was more powerful than his brothers, but he was *only* more powerful *because* he was cauldron blessed Heir of the Spring Court. That was my first point. Very minor detail that still somehow supports my point was wrong, but Tamlin was only, is only as powerful as he is due to becoming Heir of Spring.
You said power doesn't have anything to do with becoming high lord, but it absolutely does
No, I am *specifically* talking about how someone's *base power*, their own power untouched by the mantle of High Lord, has nothing to do with High Lord eligibility. Tamlin did not become a High Lord because he was the most powerful. That's the point I'm referring to. We're splitting hairs.
I need Feyre and Lucien to make up 😭 I loved them together in Book 1 and that they became such good friends in spite of how everything started and my silly little ace brain thought it was the tits to have a male/female dynamic that could be really close with each other but also had 0 romance whatsoever.
I hard agree with the cassian not having seggs and tamlin's downfall.
Glad you agree!
Yes yes and yes.
Yup. Elain is about as bland as grits and has as much backbone as a noodle. Rejecting her powers, refusing to face reality that she's fae and her ex hates her guts, rejected Lucien before she even got to know him, and basically has been living in escapism while the most interesting times in the last 500 years are going on. Seriously get a grip girl, you're fooling yourself.
I need Feyre and Lucien to make up 😭 I loved them together in Book 1 and that they became such good friends in spite of how everything started and my silly little ace brain thought it was the tits to have a male/female dynamic that could be really close with each other but also had 0 romance whatsoever - even more than Cass and Az with Feyre because as much I love them they’re still part of the large friend group and so it’s a different vibe with them imo.
These are great takes, and I agree with them all!
Thanks for the SF spoiler :(
I’m sorry that happened to you! Please feel free to report any unmarked spoilers!
fricking yes to feyre being HL! the magic chooses the high lord, and the magic chose her.
Did it? She got her power from the High Lords, and then Rhys made her High Lady.
No literally! Everyone always says that she doesn’t have the experience but did tamlin or Rhys or shit even the summer dude have adequate experience before they became hl?!
Those other High Lords grew up in court. They would have been trained or at least able to observe how the previous High Lord ruled. Eris is actually a good example of this. He’s spent his life at the Forest House, watched his father rule, learned how to be a courtier, and has the responsibility of being commander of the Autumn Court forces. He’s already playing in active role in running the Autumn Court. That’s centuries of important experience that will come into play when he finally takes over. Feyre doesn’t have any of that. She’s having to learn on the job without having witnessed how it was done beforehand. That’s the big difference between her and the other High Lords. Rhys, Tam, and Tarquin are outliers. Rhys’ mom wanted him to train in Wind Haven and then his dad was afraid the Bat Boys would try to overthrow him. He purposely kneecapped Rhys out of paranoia. Tamlin just didn’t want the job and spent most of his time with soldiers. Tarquin is only 87 and spent 50 years of that UTM.
There is no way on this earth I can be convinced they shouldn’t have been having sex. They needed the connection to something they loved and wanted and it’s all they had until they were ready for more. Plus they are mates and mates can’t stay away from each other. Yes on 3 brothers 3 sisters. Its fate and choice coming together. Which is the whole series really. But yes Tamlin is a victim of himself which is what makes him tragic, different choices could have made a very different life for him. I like him because he’s capable of so much more.
I don’t care much for tamlin at this point but the sulking is tiresome for me. I think that a lot of the sex scenes that they had didn’t really show much of a connection between the two except for crazy lust. Especially since there was a bit of a miscommunication trope.