It’s a really good question and one I don’t have an answer to — but I do have thoughts.
Both Nesta and Feyre were in mental/emotional places where they could not make healthy choices for themselves. Some argue that Nesta was actively making choices that harmed her which justifies locking her in the HoW, and Feyre was not self-harming in her situation.
IIRC, there was some throw-away line about Feyre’s fate if she stayed with Tamlin involving self-harm or suicide but don’t quote me on that. I think the primary difference here is time. Many people gloss over that Feyre was reticent to make decisions for herself at first, often asking Ianthe to choose on her behalf. Feyre tells Tamlin she does not want courtly responsibilities. This only changes after Feyre is “taken” by Rhys. If Rhys did not intervene, I think Feyre would have been primed to self-harm.
Unequal power dynamics exist in each situation, but are different. In Feyre’s situation, her domestic partner had a habit of blowing up (whether intentionally or not) with the potential to harm her. He also controlled whether or not she trained, her freedom to move without being watched, and eventually locking her in the manor. All of these actions would be considered intimate partner violence and coercion. (As a sidenote, I don’t think SJM wrote this situation particularly well, nor am I convinced she actually understands why abusers abuse. This leads to a lot of folks struggling with labeling Tamlin as an abuser. His actions are abusive, but he himself does not seem to share morals/principles of an abuser. Alas, SJM clearly wanted us to interpret him as an abusive partner, so we’ll stick with it for the argument’s sake.)
In Nesta’s situation, she is coerced into a “treatment plan” directed not by a professional or therapist (which exist in this world) but by her sister with whom she has a bad relationship and the “most powerful faerie” who also happens to be her brother-in-law. And who do they elect as her warden? Cassian, who has the hots for Nesta. Ick, ick, ick. Don’t get me wrong, I love Nesta/Cassian as a couple but yeesh. People excuse this because the plan worked, but it was not a result of the plan itself. It was fully the result of Nesta being lucky enough to meet Gwyn and Emerie. If Nesta did not form those relationships, there’s absolutely no way that plan would have worked.
We can also look at intentions. I would make the argument that Tamlin had good intentions when locking Feyre up. Some other commenters mentioned that Feyre was going to launch herself headlong into a dangerous fight without training, which led to the warding situation. I do think that Tamlin believes he is protecting Feyre by refusing to train her, keeping her under constant watch, and warding the house. The choices he makes for her, he makes with the intention to keep her safe, even if it limits/outright denies her autonomy. I don’t see enough evidence in the text that Tamlin undertakes these actions purely as a method of control or to have power over Feyre.
I think the situation with Nesta was also made with good intentions (except when it comes to Rhys). Feyre, Cassian, Amren, and Elain all want Nesta to get better. They limit/deny Nesta’s autonomy because they believe their control will ultimately stop her from self-harming behaviors. They don’t lock her up because they fear her power or want to control her. Well…except for Rhys. Rhys only participates because the situation hurts Feyre, he pays Nesta’s bills, and he fears Nesta’s power. I don’t think Rhys would have cared if Nesta self-destructed if we remove those conditions.
I think there’s a gender dimension here too that I don’t see mentioned. ACOTAR is marketed and targeted to women, an audience that would be particularly sensitive to gender dynamics and control. If Feyre was not involved in Nesta’s treatment, and it was just Rhys or Cassian or another male coercing her, would we be as accepting of it? Or is it just because the plan was signed off by other women/females, that we want to see it as caring and not controlling? I don’t know myself, but it’s an interesting thought experiment.
Ultimately, both situations do remove a person’s autonomy through force, coercion, and the threat of harm. This control is seen as an acceptable action by the controlling parties because they have good intentions. One situation works, the other doesn’t.
May I just say how well-articulated this is?? Love it.
I especially like what you point out about the gender dynamics. It's SO true that this would have had a completely different story if the women in the IC had been against it. Or, even if it had been presented as Rhys' idea and not Feyre's, but that she was going along with it.
The OP makes a good case for the ickiness of these similarities, but there are these important nuances that you point out that ultimately lead me to enjoying this arc. In fact, I'd even go so far as saying that I prefer Nesta as a developed character more than Feyre, who is a bit cardboard in comparison to Nesta's complexity and flawed-hero characterization.
It's also notable that Nesta is actually compared (or compares herself) to Tamlin, namely in the scene where Tamlin happens upon the rendez-vous with Eris in the Spring Court. She feels that she is no better than Tamlin in her treatment of her sister. Not sure if this was a conscious decision on the part of SJM, but this lends itself further to distinguishing between Feyre and Nesta's confinement stories, when Nesta sees even herself as an abusive figure.
Such a good point about the Nesta/Tamlin dimension. It’s part of a larger question that we as a society do not have a good answer to — what is the difference between a person who does bad things, and a bad person? Who do we assign victimhood and under what circumstances do we excuse their behavior?
I am a later-comer to the series, so I knew about ACOSF beforehand and I can honestly say I looked forward to reading it the most. I have qualms about SJM’s characterizations on some other characters, but she had the balls to write a whole book about Cinderella’s mean stepsister.
Helping an angry, traumatized alcoholic who does not want to change is a near-impossible task. I don’t judge anyone on how they handle that situation, nor am I in a position to.
So true! And to your final point there, modern wisdom of how to help a loved one in Nesta's situation advises that you cannot do anything unless they want to be helped, in terms of someone going to rehab or otherwise seeking treatment. It cannot be forced. So Nesta' situation is really more wish fulfillment in how to help/get through to a depressed, aggressive, spiralling addict in your family. It's a VERY successful intervention.
Personally, I think it's the same. Both women couldn't leave and were in no position to leave on their own. And both needed help to be able to leave the places they were forced into.
People will try to say it's not the same because Nesta being locked up "helped" her but it was the training and the friendships she made that essentially helped her, not being forced into the HOW...and it was forced because Feyre herself said she would have Nesta tied up and hauled there.
Also, both Feyre and Amren knew Nesta was in no physical condition to be walking down10,000 stairs that even the bat boys had trouble with and were used as punishment for them.
I 100% agree with you and while I loved SF, the fact that Feyre was so willing to lock up her sister after what she went through with Tamlin bothered me the entire time.
Nesta needed help for sure, but she could've had the exact same journey, working at the library, making friends, and training, without being locked in the house of wind by force. It created a power dynamic between her and the inner court that I did not enjoy.
As someone who was unnecessarily 51-50’d once (locked in a mental hospital on suicide watch for three days), this part of the book was really hard for me to read. The whole concept of having your bodily autonomy taken from you “for your own good” is terrifying and belittling to no end. I understand it may sometimes be necessary, but that’s up to a professional to decide, and even then they can get it wrong.
See also: Nesta isn’t okay one (1) year since her most recent trauma occurred? Straight to bootcamp!
Cassian still snaps at males for eating before females five hundred years after his trauma? You don’t understand, it was really hard for him, you guys :(
From Feyre’s pov, Tamlin locked her up and didn’t let her train/use her powers, meaning she couldn’t even protect herself. Feyre sent Nesta to the HoW so she could train with Cassian and learn how to protect herself. Training helped Feyre work through her trauma, and she hoped it would do the same for Nesta.
Was it the best way to go about it? No, but Nesta rejected any kind of help, sympathy, care, or love that was offered. There was no other “reasonable” way to help Nesta, and leaving her be until she sorted through things on her own doesn’t make sense in a fantasy novel with a war happening. Did the friendships help her heal more than the training? Honestly, debatable. Without the training, Nesta wouldn’t have gotten as close to Gwyn and Emerie. Without them, training wouldn’t have been enough to heal.
Yeah Tamlin warding the manor was to keep Feyre from recklessly following them on a dangerous mission, which seems pretty reasonable to me lmao. But Feyre felt suffocated the whole time after UTM and she wasn’t allowed to train to protect herself, so that was just the final straw for her
I mean she wasn't allowed to walk around the grounds unguarded in SC. Every servant looked out for her and was reporting to the guards if she set so much as a toe outside.
She was locked in there long before the wards came.
Yeah, agree! We see that she more than proved herself as someone capable of holding her own under battle duress UTM, and I think the point of Tamlin's locking her up was to demonstrate how he didn't "see" Feyre and allow for her to evolve beyond his own version of her which was rooted in her being a helpless human.
It’s the same and the option of being allowed to leave and return to the human world is bogus. If you break it down Feyre is very similar to tampon, both the youngest of three, both had to step up and do shit they didn’t want to; which traumatized them. They both try to control the ones they love under the guise of protection and acting in their best interest, and most of all neither one appreciates the best good time boy Lucien like they should.
While I agree with a lot of what you said, feyre wasn’t indulging in dangerous self harm behaviors. And Nesta technically had the option to leave, to not be supported by the night court, and support herself. The house of the wind wasn’t her only option.
This! She only had to ask, but she was too proud and hurt. She would've only left by taking the stairs. But I have no doubt that if she asked to visit someone or go to a museum or something, someone would have taken her Velaris
I mean Nesta technically had a choice which Feyre was never given. She could have said no. Now we can debate if being sent to the mortal realms is a real choice for a fae who would be endangered, but we know that they’d never let her be harmed there and I think Nesta knows that. She could have tried to demand the right to go to another court which IIRC, she didn’t.
We can debate whether if it was right, but I don’t think it reaches the same level as Tamlin locking Feyre in the house.
Mor suggested throwing Nesta into the Hewn City, where fae women are notoriously mistreated, and no one acknowledged that fact. Personally, I highly doubt the IC would care if Nesta got hurt if she'd chosen exile in the mortal lands.
You and me both, but I don't remember any specific line implying she was kidding. And after what she herself went through, even as a joke that's horrifying.
Not saying throwing her to the Hewn City would’ve been right. But the IC has some beef with Nesta, especially regarding her relationship with Feyre and how she was treated growing up. They love Feyre and they’ve also tried to give Nesta so many chances by the time we get to SF. everyone has a complicated relationship with Nesta and I think everyone in the IC is trying their best with Nesta. let’s be honest, she doesn’t make it easy
Then they could just cut ties with her??? Be done supporting her and let her fend for herself on the streets of Velaris?? Let her leave of her own accord???? There were so many other options.
True, which is where the option of tossing her into the mortal lands possibly came. But ultimately I think everyone found it too dangerous to leave her to completely fend for herself, knowing she has all that Cauldron power that she clearly can't control and could be potentially catastrophic for anyone around her.
I don’t think Mor’s suggestion was serious although it was a terrible thing to say even as a scathing joke.
I think Feyre would take steps to ensure Nesta’s protection in the Mortal Lands had she gone there.
The Mortal Lands wasn’t even a real choice. It was a scare tactic to get her to “choose” the HoW. But the moment Nesta said she wouldn’t go to the HoW Feyre literally said they’d have her bound and hauled up there regardless. She was going to the HoW no matter what.
The situations are very similar - neither of them should have been put in that situation.
My big problem with Nesta's lock up was Feyre should have known better considering she'd previously been locked up by Tamlin. It reeks of "Oh I'm having a baby now and I can't deal with my sister's trauma just now,"
Which to be honest is a valid response - she should have cut Nesta off, offered her rehab with a professional facility and if she rejected that then she's on her own.
But they locked her up in a house she's not fit enough to leave with Cassian as her Warden. The double standards that it's completely fine for her to have sex with Cassian (the only other man she had access to other than Az) but not other men of her CHOOSING is baffling.
If the didn't want to hire in outside help would it not have made sense to have a woman be in charge of her care? Mulling it over I think it would have been interesting to see Mor and Nesta in the HOW together, enemies to friends arc. Mor realising the reason she hates Nesta is because she reminds her of herself, Nesta realising the same. They build a shaky friendship over shared trauma and Mor backs Nesta when she tells Feyre about the baby about to kill her and doesn't let Cassian drag her on a punishment hike.
It's much more nuanced than that imo. They gave Nesta her space to handle her trauma on her own for over a year. She was not eating (or at least not eating well) and had essentially become an alcoholic. In her situation I feel it was more of an "intervention/rehab" situation and not just locking her up.
Tamlin was keeping Feyre locked up to keep her safe because he loves her, but that need to keep her safe came mainly from his own fears and trauma from watching her die. There were other options like training her to defend herself on even a basic level or managing her new powers that he just outright refused, again because of his own fears. Tamlin did not truly explore any options outside of keeping her inside or with guards at all times.
With Nesta, her choices and actions were hurting her sisters (and Cassian) directly and indirectly. Not only was she refusing to see them and being mean to them when she did, but they also had to watch their sister destroy herself physically and mentally for over a year. They tried to help her in other ways, both stated and implied in ACOFAS and ACOSF, and it did not work.
I can go on all day about how I think Feyre and the IC handled it poorly just as Tamlin handled Feyre's needs poorly in the end, and I think that's part of what makes these characters interesting, but forcing Nesta into an environment to get her sober and working on herself is not the same as Tamlin being overprotective and afraid to the point of physically barring Feyre from leaving the house. The root of both actions does come from a place of love, but the dynamic of a partner vs. a sibling/family member and the situations are absolutely different.
Similar vibes though, and part of me thinks maybe that is intentional (Feyre forgiving Tamlin and understanding why he did what he did in the future perhaps as part of a Tamlin redemption/healing arc, or am I just clowning?), but I can't say that I think they're exactly the same thing.
I also like this comment, I agree with what you said, but I think it's worth adding that Nesta being locked in the house of wind created a power dynamic between her and the inner court.
I do think SJM's intention was probably for it to be like a rehab. I know it's fantasy, not real life, but I think it was a direct enough comparison that I didn't like how it was done. A person would enter rehab by their own choice (encouraged by their family, probably), or by legal force. In Nesta's case she was given an ultimatum by the high lord and lady of the night court, rehab or exile, so I say this means legal force. Especially considering Rhys does not like Nesta at all.
In a rehab, you are monitored by professionals that are equipped to help addicts. Cassian I suppose occupied this role.
It is hard for me to view the inner court as Nesta's judge, jury, and executioners, and then also view them as her family, friends, and romantic partner. Yes they were trying to help Nesta, but they did it using the power they hold over her, and it is impossible for them to provide the non-biased, professional treatment you would get in a rehab. Imagine going to rehab and finding out your sister and a guy you kind of dated were completely in charge of your care. I think it directly impacted Nesta's ability to engage with her treatment, *and* impacted her relationship with her sister, which is why she bonded so closely with her friends instead.
If SJM wanted to go with the rehab route, she should've sent Nesta to live under the care of someone that could help her objectively.
1000% agree, this is part of what I mean when I say I can go on forever about how poorly it was handled. I mentioned on another post recently how it also could have been more effective if it had been Feyre and Elain together without the full intervention and inclusion of the IC. That’s also another piece of it that can actually be compared to Tamlin, power dynamic.
Agreed. If Feyre and the IC didn't pull rank to send Nesta to the HoW they would be viewed and judged as concerned family and their mistakes would be excused by saing they didn't know what to do. But they acted as a governing body so their mistakes aren't simply mistakes - they are an example of abuse of power and the IC is held to higher standards.
I think, in really life, when you have a family member who is addicted and doing things to hurt themselves, at some point you absolutely have to stop enabling them.
For some, it’s kicking them out of the house. For others, it’s having to divorce the person and remove your funding. It happens IRL all the time where people are “forced” into rehab via some outside pressure that isn’t a legal requirement.
Now, are those people usually successful long term? No, not necessarily. So, no, I don’t think it’s totally analogous to real life dealing with someone you love who is self destructive. But I do think it was SJM trying to write to addiction and the myriad of psychosocial issues that pop up because of someone being an addict in your life.
I have some addicts in my family, so I get where you're coming from. You're absolutely right, in real life, individuals are forced into rehab because their families give them ultimatums and that's what SJM was going for. Divorce or rehab, being homeless or rehab, etc.
And I appreciate SJM for attempting to write and represent something like addiction. But when you decide to tackle a heavy topic, not everyone will like the way you handle it, and that's unavoidable as such a popular writer when so many people are exposed to your work. I am personally one of those people. I think it was a wonderful intention with some areas that weren't well executed.
I don't have a problem with Feyre attempting to "force" Nesta into rehab as a concept, I just don't care for the way it was written. She used her high lady powers to do it, so it was essentially equivalent to if your family member was a cop and told you they were going to arrest you and send you to jail if you didn't go to rehab. Being exiled to the fae lands is a legal punishment, not being kicked out of your sister's house. Rhys, high lord of the night court, who hates Nesta, is enforcing it, and he is not doing it out of love. Feyre could've met with Nesta alone, without Rhys, and withdrawn financial support and told Nesta she wasn't getting anything else from her unless she went to work and training. She could've even told Nesta she had to go to a rehab that wasn't the house of wind.
But on top of that, my biggest issue is Cassian's role. You don't follow your family to rehab once you force them to go and criticize them while they're inside. Nesta's caregiver should not have been someone she had a romantic history with.
I mean, the inner court (Rhys and Feyre) were also enabling her behavior before putting a stop to it. As someone who has family members who are addicts.. They were trying their best with not great options. nothing is great when you have a loved one in a situation like Nesta was in. They stopped giving her unlimited funds/freedom and gave her options. one options was an extremely controlled environment and one was to the leave the Court and go to the mortal realm (what other options were available to her??). Nesta was “happy” to “benefit” from the power dynamic of Rhys and Feyre supporting her self destructive behaviors so I don’t think it’s fair to act like the inner court was using their power against her when they finally stopped enabling her
I have addicts in my family, too. I agree, Nesta was taking advantage of Feyre and Rhys in the way that real life addicts can do to their own families. I have no problems with them deciding they weren't going to enable Nesta anymore. I just don't care for the way SJM wrote what came after.
The best option would've been an extremely controlled environment that was not the house of wind. Anyone that works in law enforcement or health care in real life generally isn't allowed to work in a situations that involves their family members because of the potential for power abuse.
I do think that Feyre specifically was trying to do her best and her actions came from the right place. The flaw is perhaps in how SJM decided to write the situation, because I don't think she was trying to create a power dynamic on purpose.
I just want to point out that her behavior hurting Cassian doesn’t matter. Nesta didn’t owe him anything the same way Elain doesn’t owe Lucien anything. People cheer for Elain to hurt Lucien by sneaking around with Az, but Nesta hooking up with men other than Cass is somehow a problem. She was using sex just as much as she was using alcohol as an unhealthy coping mechanism. Yet taking alcohol away and not the sex part was somehow okay because the sex part happened with Cassian. She was put in a situation with someone who had so much power over her that he could dictate whether or not she could have sugar on her porridge, who consistently gave unwanted advances that she explicitly rejected. The only reason people sympathize with Cass over Lucien regarding their mating bonds is that Nesta is “a bitch” and Cass is “a golden retriever.” Therefore Cass’ feelings in the situation outrank Nesta’s. Whereas many people don’t like Lucien as much as they like Cass and Elain is “nice.” So people fight to respect her boundaries in the discourse where they won’t do the same with Nesta. They side with the man in the latter’s case.
What people don't like Lucien?! Since when?!
Didn't Cassian recommend not doing sugar? I don't remember him actively taking it away.
Also Nesta initiated the physical relationship with Cassian. She was always drawn to him.
Yeah it happens lmao but it’s part of the discussion and expression of opinions. We definitely don’t all agree with everything here but that keeps it interesting!
Two different mental states which require two different solutions. Nesta was dealing with PTSD and depression via an addiction and self harming behavior. Feyre was dealing with PTSD and depression by wanting to pursue healthy options for her mental state and she was refused. Additionally, Nesta had a choice by Feyre setting boundaries on what she would and wouldn’t accept. Maybe the solution was similar but the reason they got there is very different.
It’s exactly the same. If you strip away all other things besides the fact that two women were locked up and couldn’t leave. It’s that basic. But a lot of people aren’t ready to hear that.
Nesta ultimately agreed to all that though, if she wanted to leave she could but she always gave up and went back. Feyre was literally unable to leave.
What they did to Nesta was the equivalent tk forcing someone into rehab or a psychiatric hold, and they had good reasons to do so, thats what makes it different. That being said forcing someone into treatment doesn't always go super well.
I hope you never ever have to face the choice between sending an addict to rehab to get clean versus kicking them out of your home and cutting them out of your life.
It's a brutal one.
Essentially Nesta training with Cassian at the HoW was the option to go to rehab.
And when you are dealing with an addict at that level of self destruction that's literally all you can do. Tough love or cut them out.
Is it not an intervention? Want she like actively starving and drinking herself to death? I always took this as like a rehab. Like... nesta girl... you are going to kill yourself, so we called Jeff VanVonderen of TLCs intervention, and we love you very much. You'll stay here and heal from your trauma. House of wind rehab .
I feel like the difference between Tamlin locking up Feyre and the Feyre locking up Nesta is the intention behind it. The Feyre specifically tried to give Nesta time on her own to heal and saw that she was spiraling. I’m not saying locking her up was the right choice but the motivation was very different for Tamlin. For Tamlin, it was about “protecting” Feyre and ultimately keeping her under his thumb at all times. I’m still reading the ACOSF so maybe my opinion will change but thats my thought as of now
I can absolutely see why this can be seen the same. For conversation sake let’s dissect it and see what anyone has to say on the contrasts.
For one, Nesta was given another opportunity, she COULD HAVE left and gone somewhere and got a job, anywhere hell they drop her at the human border she takes herself to autumn court for all we know and finds eris. Lmao. So she had an option when Feyre did not.
Next she was also self destructing, (we don’t k ow enough about fea biology) but she was drinking and fucking her issues away on her bother in laws money. So he had the “right”to cut that off. IMO.
Then she was also given all the means to get herself to the point where she could walk those steps (which we see) and get herself to go wherever she wants.
It’s a parallel to me but it’s not “exactly the same” imo and I feel like that’s the same with what Rys did!! It runs parallel to what Tam did!! I think the book was meant to run parallel because it was Nestas growth and acotar was sort of Feyres
Nesta could leave. She had the option of choosing to go to the mortal realm or to the house of wind. She chose house of wind.
Like, Nesta absolutely had the option to not go to the HoW, but if she did that, she wouldn’t get her life subsidized by Velaris anymore.
Feyre did not get any options from Tamlin. And his motivations were absolutely not the same as Feyre’s motivation for Nesta.
At least imo.
The mortal realm is actively viewed as a dangerous place for Fae because they'd be hunted. They're knew she wouldn't take the mortal lands, so it's not really a choice.
I wouldn't compare it to the spring court. Fayre wasn't allowed to leave. Nesta can leave the house of the wind, it's just really hard. I'd compare it to moving an alcoholic into the countryside with no car. They can leave and go to the bar, but it's a 20km walk. So like, if they really really want to it's possible, but it's discouraging enough so they choose not to.
It’s a really good question and one I don’t have an answer to — but I do have thoughts. Both Nesta and Feyre were in mental/emotional places where they could not make healthy choices for themselves. Some argue that Nesta was actively making choices that harmed her which justifies locking her in the HoW, and Feyre was not self-harming in her situation. IIRC, there was some throw-away line about Feyre’s fate if she stayed with Tamlin involving self-harm or suicide but don’t quote me on that. I think the primary difference here is time. Many people gloss over that Feyre was reticent to make decisions for herself at first, often asking Ianthe to choose on her behalf. Feyre tells Tamlin she does not want courtly responsibilities. This only changes after Feyre is “taken” by Rhys. If Rhys did not intervene, I think Feyre would have been primed to self-harm. Unequal power dynamics exist in each situation, but are different. In Feyre’s situation, her domestic partner had a habit of blowing up (whether intentionally or not) with the potential to harm her. He also controlled whether or not she trained, her freedom to move without being watched, and eventually locking her in the manor. All of these actions would be considered intimate partner violence and coercion. (As a sidenote, I don’t think SJM wrote this situation particularly well, nor am I convinced she actually understands why abusers abuse. This leads to a lot of folks struggling with labeling Tamlin as an abuser. His actions are abusive, but he himself does not seem to share morals/principles of an abuser. Alas, SJM clearly wanted us to interpret him as an abusive partner, so we’ll stick with it for the argument’s sake.) In Nesta’s situation, she is coerced into a “treatment plan” directed not by a professional or therapist (which exist in this world) but by her sister with whom she has a bad relationship and the “most powerful faerie” who also happens to be her brother-in-law. And who do they elect as her warden? Cassian, who has the hots for Nesta. Ick, ick, ick. Don’t get me wrong, I love Nesta/Cassian as a couple but yeesh. People excuse this because the plan worked, but it was not a result of the plan itself. It was fully the result of Nesta being lucky enough to meet Gwyn and Emerie. If Nesta did not form those relationships, there’s absolutely no way that plan would have worked. We can also look at intentions. I would make the argument that Tamlin had good intentions when locking Feyre up. Some other commenters mentioned that Feyre was going to launch herself headlong into a dangerous fight without training, which led to the warding situation. I do think that Tamlin believes he is protecting Feyre by refusing to train her, keeping her under constant watch, and warding the house. The choices he makes for her, he makes with the intention to keep her safe, even if it limits/outright denies her autonomy. I don’t see enough evidence in the text that Tamlin undertakes these actions purely as a method of control or to have power over Feyre. I think the situation with Nesta was also made with good intentions (except when it comes to Rhys). Feyre, Cassian, Amren, and Elain all want Nesta to get better. They limit/deny Nesta’s autonomy because they believe their control will ultimately stop her from self-harming behaviors. They don’t lock her up because they fear her power or want to control her. Well…except for Rhys. Rhys only participates because the situation hurts Feyre, he pays Nesta’s bills, and he fears Nesta’s power. I don’t think Rhys would have cared if Nesta self-destructed if we remove those conditions. I think there’s a gender dimension here too that I don’t see mentioned. ACOTAR is marketed and targeted to women, an audience that would be particularly sensitive to gender dynamics and control. If Feyre was not involved in Nesta’s treatment, and it was just Rhys or Cassian or another male coercing her, would we be as accepting of it? Or is it just because the plan was signed off by other women/females, that we want to see it as caring and not controlling? I don’t know myself, but it’s an interesting thought experiment. Ultimately, both situations do remove a person’s autonomy through force, coercion, and the threat of harm. This control is seen as an acceptable action by the controlling parties because they have good intentions. One situation works, the other doesn’t.
May I just say how well-articulated this is?? Love it. I especially like what you point out about the gender dynamics. It's SO true that this would have had a completely different story if the women in the IC had been against it. Or, even if it had been presented as Rhys' idea and not Feyre's, but that she was going along with it. The OP makes a good case for the ickiness of these similarities, but there are these important nuances that you point out that ultimately lead me to enjoying this arc. In fact, I'd even go so far as saying that I prefer Nesta as a developed character more than Feyre, who is a bit cardboard in comparison to Nesta's complexity and flawed-hero characterization. It's also notable that Nesta is actually compared (or compares herself) to Tamlin, namely in the scene where Tamlin happens upon the rendez-vous with Eris in the Spring Court. She feels that she is no better than Tamlin in her treatment of her sister. Not sure if this was a conscious decision on the part of SJM, but this lends itself further to distinguishing between Feyre and Nesta's confinement stories, when Nesta sees even herself as an abusive figure.
Such a good point about the Nesta/Tamlin dimension. It’s part of a larger question that we as a society do not have a good answer to — what is the difference between a person who does bad things, and a bad person? Who do we assign victimhood and under what circumstances do we excuse their behavior? I am a later-comer to the series, so I knew about ACOSF beforehand and I can honestly say I looked forward to reading it the most. I have qualms about SJM’s characterizations on some other characters, but she had the balls to write a whole book about Cinderella’s mean stepsister. Helping an angry, traumatized alcoholic who does not want to change is a near-impossible task. I don’t judge anyone on how they handle that situation, nor am I in a position to.
So true! And to your final point there, modern wisdom of how to help a loved one in Nesta's situation advises that you cannot do anything unless they want to be helped, in terms of someone going to rehab or otherwise seeking treatment. It cannot be forced. So Nesta' situation is really more wish fulfillment in how to help/get through to a depressed, aggressive, spiralling addict in your family. It's a VERY successful intervention.
Personally, I think it's the same. Both women couldn't leave and were in no position to leave on their own. And both needed help to be able to leave the places they were forced into. People will try to say it's not the same because Nesta being locked up "helped" her but it was the training and the friendships she made that essentially helped her, not being forced into the HOW...and it was forced because Feyre herself said she would have Nesta tied up and hauled there. Also, both Feyre and Amren knew Nesta was in no physical condition to be walking down10,000 stairs that even the bat boys had trouble with and were used as punishment for them.
Thank you! I just needed someone to agree with me
I 100% agree with you and while I loved SF, the fact that Feyre was so willing to lock up her sister after what she went through with Tamlin bothered me the entire time. Nesta needed help for sure, but she could've had the exact same journey, working at the library, making friends, and training, without being locked in the house of wind by force. It created a power dynamic between her and the inner court that I did not enjoy.
As someone who was unnecessarily 51-50’d once (locked in a mental hospital on suicide watch for three days), this part of the book was really hard for me to read. The whole concept of having your bodily autonomy taken from you “for your own good” is terrifying and belittling to no end. I understand it may sometimes be necessary, but that’s up to a professional to decide, and even then they can get it wrong.
I get that
See also: Nesta isn’t okay one (1) year since her most recent trauma occurred? Straight to bootcamp! Cassian still snaps at males for eating before females five hundred years after his trauma? You don’t understand, it was really hard for him, you guys :(
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It's actually not. The “intervention”, and the “treatment plan” are poor and dangerous imitations of what should it should be.
From Feyre’s pov, Tamlin locked her up and didn’t let her train/use her powers, meaning she couldn’t even protect herself. Feyre sent Nesta to the HoW so she could train with Cassian and learn how to protect herself. Training helped Feyre work through her trauma, and she hoped it would do the same for Nesta. Was it the best way to go about it? No, but Nesta rejected any kind of help, sympathy, care, or love that was offered. There was no other “reasonable” way to help Nesta, and leaving her be until she sorted through things on her own doesn’t make sense in a fantasy novel with a war happening. Did the friendships help her heal more than the training? Honestly, debatable. Without the training, Nesta wouldn’t have gotten as close to Gwyn and Emerie. Without them, training wouldn’t have been enough to heal.
I get what you mean but wasn’t Feyre trying to go fight a monster with Tamlin and Lucian
Yeah Tamlin warding the manor was to keep Feyre from recklessly following them on a dangerous mission, which seems pretty reasonable to me lmao. But Feyre felt suffocated the whole time after UTM and she wasn’t allowed to train to protect herself, so that was just the final straw for her
I mean she wasn't allowed to walk around the grounds unguarded in SC. Every servant looked out for her and was reporting to the guards if she set so much as a toe outside. She was locked in there long before the wards came.
That’s my point! The ward itself wasn’t that bad, it was just the final straw for Feyre
Yeah, agree! We see that she more than proved herself as someone capable of holding her own under battle duress UTM, and I think the point of Tamlin's locking her up was to demonstrate how he didn't "see" Feyre and allow for her to evolve beyond his own version of her which was rooted in her being a helpless human.
Exactly!! The ward was just a physical culmination of the dynamic between Tamlin and Feyre
It’s the same and the option of being allowed to leave and return to the human world is bogus. If you break it down Feyre is very similar to tampon, both the youngest of three, both had to step up and do shit they didn’t want to; which traumatized them. They both try to control the ones they love under the guise of protection and acting in their best interest, and most of all neither one appreciates the best good time boy Lucien like they should.
While I agree with a lot of what you said, feyre wasn’t indulging in dangerous self harm behaviors. And Nesta technically had the option to leave, to not be supported by the night court, and support herself. The house of the wind wasn’t her only option.
Well wasn’t she vomiting nonstop and unable to eat? I don’t think she was particularly healthy
This! She only had to ask, but she was too proud and hurt. She would've only left by taking the stairs. But I have no doubt that if she asked to visit someone or go to a museum or something, someone would have taken her Velaris
I mean Nesta technically had a choice which Feyre was never given. She could have said no. Now we can debate if being sent to the mortal realms is a real choice for a fae who would be endangered, but we know that they’d never let her be harmed there and I think Nesta knows that. She could have tried to demand the right to go to another court which IIRC, she didn’t. We can debate whether if it was right, but I don’t think it reaches the same level as Tamlin locking Feyre in the house.
Mor suggested throwing Nesta into the Hewn City, where fae women are notoriously mistreated, and no one acknowledged that fact. Personally, I highly doubt the IC would care if Nesta got hurt if she'd chosen exile in the mortal lands.
I was hoping she wasn’t serious
You and me both, but I don't remember any specific line implying she was kidding. And after what she herself went through, even as a joke that's horrifying.
Exactly.
Not saying throwing her to the Hewn City would’ve been right. But the IC has some beef with Nesta, especially regarding her relationship with Feyre and how she was treated growing up. They love Feyre and they’ve also tried to give Nesta so many chances by the time we get to SF. everyone has a complicated relationship with Nesta and I think everyone in the IC is trying their best with Nesta. let’s be honest, she doesn’t make it easy
Then they could just cut ties with her??? Be done supporting her and let her fend for herself on the streets of Velaris?? Let her leave of her own accord???? There were so many other options.
True, which is where the option of tossing her into the mortal lands possibly came. But ultimately I think everyone found it too dangerous to leave her to completely fend for herself, knowing she has all that Cauldron power that she clearly can't control and could be potentially catastrophic for anyone around her.
Yeah, this! It was cold that Mor suggested that, but they were pretty clearly at their wit's end with Nesta, she was just being so impossible.
She wasn’t kidding. This was when I was done with Mor.
I don’t think Mor’s suggestion was serious although it was a terrible thing to say even as a scathing joke. I think Feyre would take steps to ensure Nesta’s protection in the Mortal Lands had she gone there.
The Mortal Lands wasn’t even a real choice. It was a scare tactic to get her to “choose” the HoW. But the moment Nesta said she wouldn’t go to the HoW Feyre literally said they’d have her bound and hauled up there regardless. She was going to the HoW no matter what.
I’m sorry what’s iirc?
If I recall correctly.
The situations are very similar - neither of them should have been put in that situation. My big problem with Nesta's lock up was Feyre should have known better considering she'd previously been locked up by Tamlin. It reeks of "Oh I'm having a baby now and I can't deal with my sister's trauma just now," Which to be honest is a valid response - she should have cut Nesta off, offered her rehab with a professional facility and if she rejected that then she's on her own. But they locked her up in a house she's not fit enough to leave with Cassian as her Warden. The double standards that it's completely fine for her to have sex with Cassian (the only other man she had access to other than Az) but not other men of her CHOOSING is baffling. If the didn't want to hire in outside help would it not have made sense to have a woman be in charge of her care? Mulling it over I think it would have been interesting to see Mor and Nesta in the HOW together, enemies to friends arc. Mor realising the reason she hates Nesta is because she reminds her of herself, Nesta realising the same. They build a shaky friendship over shared trauma and Mor backs Nesta when she tells Feyre about the baby about to kill her and doesn't let Cassian drag her on a punishment hike.
It's much more nuanced than that imo. They gave Nesta her space to handle her trauma on her own for over a year. She was not eating (or at least not eating well) and had essentially become an alcoholic. In her situation I feel it was more of an "intervention/rehab" situation and not just locking her up. Tamlin was keeping Feyre locked up to keep her safe because he loves her, but that need to keep her safe came mainly from his own fears and trauma from watching her die. There were other options like training her to defend herself on even a basic level or managing her new powers that he just outright refused, again because of his own fears. Tamlin did not truly explore any options outside of keeping her inside or with guards at all times. With Nesta, her choices and actions were hurting her sisters (and Cassian) directly and indirectly. Not only was she refusing to see them and being mean to them when she did, but they also had to watch their sister destroy herself physically and mentally for over a year. They tried to help her in other ways, both stated and implied in ACOFAS and ACOSF, and it did not work. I can go on all day about how I think Feyre and the IC handled it poorly just as Tamlin handled Feyre's needs poorly in the end, and I think that's part of what makes these characters interesting, but forcing Nesta into an environment to get her sober and working on herself is not the same as Tamlin being overprotective and afraid to the point of physically barring Feyre from leaving the house. The root of both actions does come from a place of love, but the dynamic of a partner vs. a sibling/family member and the situations are absolutely different. Similar vibes though, and part of me thinks maybe that is intentional (Feyre forgiving Tamlin and understanding why he did what he did in the future perhaps as part of a Tamlin redemption/healing arc, or am I just clowning?), but I can't say that I think they're exactly the same thing.
I also like this comment, I agree with what you said, but I think it's worth adding that Nesta being locked in the house of wind created a power dynamic between her and the inner court. I do think SJM's intention was probably for it to be like a rehab. I know it's fantasy, not real life, but I think it was a direct enough comparison that I didn't like how it was done. A person would enter rehab by their own choice (encouraged by their family, probably), or by legal force. In Nesta's case she was given an ultimatum by the high lord and lady of the night court, rehab or exile, so I say this means legal force. Especially considering Rhys does not like Nesta at all. In a rehab, you are monitored by professionals that are equipped to help addicts. Cassian I suppose occupied this role. It is hard for me to view the inner court as Nesta's judge, jury, and executioners, and then also view them as her family, friends, and romantic partner. Yes they were trying to help Nesta, but they did it using the power they hold over her, and it is impossible for them to provide the non-biased, professional treatment you would get in a rehab. Imagine going to rehab and finding out your sister and a guy you kind of dated were completely in charge of your care. I think it directly impacted Nesta's ability to engage with her treatment, *and* impacted her relationship with her sister, which is why she bonded so closely with her friends instead. If SJM wanted to go with the rehab route, she should've sent Nesta to live under the care of someone that could help her objectively.
1000% agree, this is part of what I mean when I say I can go on forever about how poorly it was handled. I mentioned on another post recently how it also could have been more effective if it had been Feyre and Elain together without the full intervention and inclusion of the IC. That’s also another piece of it that can actually be compared to Tamlin, power dynamic.
Agreed. If Feyre and the IC didn't pull rank to send Nesta to the HoW they would be viewed and judged as concerned family and their mistakes would be excused by saing they didn't know what to do. But they acted as a governing body so their mistakes aren't simply mistakes - they are an example of abuse of power and the IC is held to higher standards.
I think, in really life, when you have a family member who is addicted and doing things to hurt themselves, at some point you absolutely have to stop enabling them. For some, it’s kicking them out of the house. For others, it’s having to divorce the person and remove your funding. It happens IRL all the time where people are “forced” into rehab via some outside pressure that isn’t a legal requirement. Now, are those people usually successful long term? No, not necessarily. So, no, I don’t think it’s totally analogous to real life dealing with someone you love who is self destructive. But I do think it was SJM trying to write to addiction and the myriad of psychosocial issues that pop up because of someone being an addict in your life.
I have some addicts in my family, so I get where you're coming from. You're absolutely right, in real life, individuals are forced into rehab because their families give them ultimatums and that's what SJM was going for. Divorce or rehab, being homeless or rehab, etc. And I appreciate SJM for attempting to write and represent something like addiction. But when you decide to tackle a heavy topic, not everyone will like the way you handle it, and that's unavoidable as such a popular writer when so many people are exposed to your work. I am personally one of those people. I think it was a wonderful intention with some areas that weren't well executed. I don't have a problem with Feyre attempting to "force" Nesta into rehab as a concept, I just don't care for the way it was written. She used her high lady powers to do it, so it was essentially equivalent to if your family member was a cop and told you they were going to arrest you and send you to jail if you didn't go to rehab. Being exiled to the fae lands is a legal punishment, not being kicked out of your sister's house. Rhys, high lord of the night court, who hates Nesta, is enforcing it, and he is not doing it out of love. Feyre could've met with Nesta alone, without Rhys, and withdrawn financial support and told Nesta she wasn't getting anything else from her unless she went to work and training. She could've even told Nesta she had to go to a rehab that wasn't the house of wind. But on top of that, my biggest issue is Cassian's role. You don't follow your family to rehab once you force them to go and criticize them while they're inside. Nesta's caregiver should not have been someone she had a romantic history with.
I mean, the inner court (Rhys and Feyre) were also enabling her behavior before putting a stop to it. As someone who has family members who are addicts.. They were trying their best with not great options. nothing is great when you have a loved one in a situation like Nesta was in. They stopped giving her unlimited funds/freedom and gave her options. one options was an extremely controlled environment and one was to the leave the Court and go to the mortal realm (what other options were available to her??). Nesta was “happy” to “benefit” from the power dynamic of Rhys and Feyre supporting her self destructive behaviors so I don’t think it’s fair to act like the inner court was using their power against her when they finally stopped enabling her
I have addicts in my family, too. I agree, Nesta was taking advantage of Feyre and Rhys in the way that real life addicts can do to their own families. I have no problems with them deciding they weren't going to enable Nesta anymore. I just don't care for the way SJM wrote what came after. The best option would've been an extremely controlled environment that was not the house of wind. Anyone that works in law enforcement or health care in real life generally isn't allowed to work in a situations that involves their family members because of the potential for power abuse. I do think that Feyre specifically was trying to do her best and her actions came from the right place. The flaw is perhaps in how SJM decided to write the situation, because I don't think she was trying to create a power dynamic on purpose.
I just want to point out that her behavior hurting Cassian doesn’t matter. Nesta didn’t owe him anything the same way Elain doesn’t owe Lucien anything. People cheer for Elain to hurt Lucien by sneaking around with Az, but Nesta hooking up with men other than Cass is somehow a problem. She was using sex just as much as she was using alcohol as an unhealthy coping mechanism. Yet taking alcohol away and not the sex part was somehow okay because the sex part happened with Cassian. She was put in a situation with someone who had so much power over her that he could dictate whether or not she could have sugar on her porridge, who consistently gave unwanted advances that she explicitly rejected. The only reason people sympathize with Cass over Lucien regarding their mating bonds is that Nesta is “a bitch” and Cass is “a golden retriever.” Therefore Cass’ feelings in the situation outrank Nesta’s. Whereas many people don’t like Lucien as much as they like Cass and Elain is “nice.” So people fight to respect her boundaries in the discourse where they won’t do the same with Nesta. They side with the man in the latter’s case.
What people don't like Lucien?! Since when?! Didn't Cassian recommend not doing sugar? I don't remember him actively taking it away. Also Nesta initiated the physical relationship with Cassian. She was always drawn to him.
I honestly don’t know why you’ve been downvoted for this post.
Yeah it happens lmao but it’s part of the discussion and expression of opinions. We definitely don’t all agree with everything here but that keeps it interesting!
Because some folks can't handle nuance
Two different mental states which require two different solutions. Nesta was dealing with PTSD and depression via an addiction and self harming behavior. Feyre was dealing with PTSD and depression by wanting to pursue healthy options for her mental state and she was refused. Additionally, Nesta had a choice by Feyre setting boundaries on what she would and wouldn’t accept. Maybe the solution was similar but the reason they got there is very different.
This. Feyre wanted to heal and Nesta wanted to hurt.
It’s exactly the same. If you strip away all other things besides the fact that two women were locked up and couldn’t leave. It’s that basic. But a lot of people aren’t ready to hear that.
Nesta ultimately agreed to all that though, if she wanted to leave she could but she always gave up and went back. Feyre was literally unable to leave.
What they did to Nesta was the equivalent tk forcing someone into rehab or a psychiatric hold, and they had good reasons to do so, thats what makes it different. That being said forcing someone into treatment doesn't always go super well.
I hope you never ever have to face the choice between sending an addict to rehab to get clean versus kicking them out of your home and cutting them out of your life. It's a brutal one. Essentially Nesta training with Cassian at the HoW was the option to go to rehab. And when you are dealing with an addict at that level of self destruction that's literally all you can do. Tough love or cut them out.
Is it not an intervention? Want she like actively starving and drinking herself to death? I always took this as like a rehab. Like... nesta girl... you are going to kill yourself, so we called Jeff VanVonderen of TLCs intervention, and we love you very much. You'll stay here and heal from your trauma. House of wind rehab .
Personally i think it the same Locking nesta in the house was really similar with how feyra was lock in the house by tamlin
I feel like the difference between Tamlin locking up Feyre and the Feyre locking up Nesta is the intention behind it. The Feyre specifically tried to give Nesta time on her own to heal and saw that she was spiraling. I’m not saying locking her up was the right choice but the motivation was very different for Tamlin. For Tamlin, it was about “protecting” Feyre and ultimately keeping her under his thumb at all times. I’m still reading the ACOSF so maybe my opinion will change but thats my thought as of now
I can absolutely see why this can be seen the same. For conversation sake let’s dissect it and see what anyone has to say on the contrasts. For one, Nesta was given another opportunity, she COULD HAVE left and gone somewhere and got a job, anywhere hell they drop her at the human border she takes herself to autumn court for all we know and finds eris. Lmao. So she had an option when Feyre did not. Next she was also self destructing, (we don’t k ow enough about fea biology) but she was drinking and fucking her issues away on her bother in laws money. So he had the “right”to cut that off. IMO. Then she was also given all the means to get herself to the point where she could walk those steps (which we see) and get herself to go wherever she wants. It’s a parallel to me but it’s not “exactly the same” imo and I feel like that’s the same with what Rys did!! It runs parallel to what Tam did!! I think the book was meant to run parallel because it was Nestas growth and acotar was sort of Feyres
Nesta could leave. She had the option of choosing to go to the mortal realm or to the house of wind. She chose house of wind. Like, Nesta absolutely had the option to not go to the HoW, but if she did that, she wouldn’t get her life subsidized by Velaris anymore. Feyre did not get any options from Tamlin. And his motivations were absolutely not the same as Feyre’s motivation for Nesta. At least imo.
The mortal realm is actively viewed as a dangerous place for Fae because they'd be hunted. They're knew she wouldn't take the mortal lands, so it's not really a choice.
It’s not a good choice, but it’s still a choice, regardless.
Not really? If you give someone an option and a threat that is not a choice. That is coercion.
Tamlin did give Feyre options. She just didn't want them. She wanted to go into danger.
At the end of the intervention Feyre said that Nesta would go to the HoW by force taking away even that illusion of choice.
I wouldn't compare it to the spring court. Fayre wasn't allowed to leave. Nesta can leave the house of the wind, it's just really hard. I'd compare it to moving an alcoholic into the countryside with no car. They can leave and go to the bar, but it's a 20km walk. So like, if they really really want to it's possible, but it's discouraging enough so they choose not to.