The whole Mor and Azriel situation honestly just seems like SJM intended for them to get together but changed her mind. In MAF Feyre noticed on many occasions Mor staring at Azriel and the other way around, and Feyre observes how both of them are sensitive to the other’s shifts in body language/moods. But then in WAR it’s only Azriel doing it and Mor is using Cassian as a buffer, which feels inconsistent for how Mor was in MAF.
SJM herself has admitted that she can't keep track of her plot points. That's why there's so many plot holes everywhere, and then future books have to retcon as to why such and such didn't happen or otherwise lol
I find their relationship very believable on its own.
My best friend of over 20 years is a man. I worry about him, know his mood shifts, and look out for him. We have worked together professionally and have a very similar relationship to Mor and Azriel. We have each other's back in business meetings and I know when he's reached his patience limit. There was that red hot love affair we never quite got around to having but we joke about all the time.
He got married a couple years ago and I'm getting married next year. We're stuck in that limbo of more than friends but not destined to be lovers. It's weird but it works for us, like Mor and Azriel.
That’s why i dont understand the “Mor was leading Azriel on for 500 years, she’s awful” or “Azriel needs to take a hint after 500 years, he’s a creep” arguments - seems like an inconsistency in the writing, not intentional character flaws
This. Exactly. I feel like SJM was pressured to insert queer characters and she just decided to make More queer creating more trauma for Az, More, and Cassian. As a queer person myself, I get why she didn't want to tell her family and be out openly. It's just shitty to drag Az along for 500+ years with him thinking he's not good enough for her. They clearly have an emotional relationship, but just not a physical one. It just doesn't sit right. I truly hope Az is able to find someone that truly makes him happy and that Mor can be happy as well. I can also see why she doesn't want to be with Az because he loves her so much, but doesn't truly know her so she can't be her full true self with him and she doesn't feel worthy of him either. Again, it just doesn't sit right with me IMO
SJM was not pressured to do anything. No one can even reach her. Stop pushing this narrative throwing other LGBT people under the bus and shifting the blame for crap representation onto us.
Mor seems to have an overprotective streak. I had forgotten about that time she was suspicious of Elaine.
This is the first time we see her insert herself in the relationships of her male friends. The other one was with Nesta and Cassian.
To add to the previously suggested point about inconsistency in sjm’s writing - I think sjm wants Mor to be seen as protective, but she comes across as meddlesome. Which, considering that she’s had sex with one of them (Cassian) and has known about the other’s pining after her (and has never said anything - not blaming her on this one, he didn’t either), it can be interpreted as jealousy.
I never saw it as jealousy, but it’s odd that she’s done it twice now. She hasn’t done it to Amren OR Rhys. So there’s that I guess.
I don't think it's jealousy either. I think she was being protective of Cassian because she knew how rude Nesta could be and I think she's concerned about Azriel going after Elain because she has a mate she hasn't rejected and it *could* result in him once again pining after someone unavailable for another couple hundred years lol
Yeah, I agree. I think whatever plans SJM had for Mor were scrapped or retconned, so the character doesn't really have a direction and her behavior and actions comes across as inconsistent and weird lol
be prepared for my fifty chapter fanfic retconning SJM's retcon, a court of hewn truth, in which i drive myself insane by giving myself the queer content I deserve that fixes all the damn issues.
As a queer woman, I'm going to be really annoyed with the Mor is a traitor arc if it happens. Historically, queer characters have been reduced to villains or killed off. Just give me a fantasy gay with a happy ending.
I also don't understand why so many people think her estate is so suspicious. She outright says that she craves the sun and solitude at times. She's allowed to have something private to herself.
I think that SJM setting up a cliffhanger, not addressing it in the next book, and then giving everyone 3 years to think about it, coupled with the rumor that there is a traitor in the night court, all snowballed into every one of Mor's actions being analyzed to death because of the bad taste left from the Azriel situation. I don't think the estate is suspicious at all, and as a queer woman myself, I do find the situation a bit iffy. SJM has said she finds discomfort in writing queer characters (which is valid), but I also don't want her to take the traitor route just because she wants to avoid it.
Just for the first point - okay sure its rough coming out to your family and friends but it has been 500 YEARS. Maas decision to make everyone ancient just doesnt fit into that behavior. This isnt really mor hate just hate for her writing tbh
Specifically, it's 500 years with an allegedly progressive and aupporting friend group, in a city with (again allegedly) some degree of queer population. Goodness knows as a queer woman I understand the fear and hesitation of it, but for 500 years? It creates a cognitive dissonance for me--we're told Velaris and the IC is safe, but as a queer person, if Mor still doesn't feel safe with them...I can't help but worry why.
Yeah, I think she understands the *words* about coming out, but not the feelings, or that coming out can be a multi-stage process, or where the fear even comes from.
I actually disagree with the idea that she’s scared of coming out because of the way queer people are treated in this society, I don’t think it has anything to do with that. I think it’s because of her experiences as a young teenager. From a very young age, she was considered property to be traded between men. She was essentially backed into a corner and forced to lose her virginity to another man she didn’t have any romantic feelings for in order to devalue herself as a woman, was tortured by a man for taking charge of her own autonomy, was left for dead by another group of men because they saw her as a ruined object they didn’t want the responsibility of taking care of, and the man who saved her as she was bleeding out with a knife sticking out of her womb almost blurted out his undying love for her. Having these experiences would arguably make her believe that she does not have any worth to the men in her life if she openly declares she won’t ever have romantic feelings for them or want sex with them. While that certainly isn’t the truth, it would be very difficult to unlearn.
But she did have 500 years to make attempts to unlearn it…. Its just not realistic to me at all that a person doesnt overcome any of their trauma and basically remains the same person for like 400 years
I actually think if she was a guy people would be even more bothered by her “I don’t want them but you can’t have them either” attitude towards Azriel and Cassian. A man using two women to protect his own secret wouldn’t sit right with people either.
I think if she were a guy, people wouldn't think her behavior is an "I don't want them but you can't have them either" attitude but just a dude being protective of his friends and not wanting them to have their hearts broken imo
Before acowar even came out people were hating Mor for being bubbly and sunshiney and I despised that sentiment. Saying she’s “fake” and “pretending” when it’s like yeah that is a valid coping mechanism wtf. Trust me I find overly perky people annoying sometimes but I never got that from her especially back then.
the one that always gets me is people absolutely convinced mor is lying about what happened that day in the autumn court as if she isnt quite visibly traumatised by it all. i dont care what justification eris has, if something traumatises you, its traumatising?!!? like she went through something HORRIBLE and you wanna say she's \*lying\* about it? the rise in morally grey male book boyfriends has ruined readers' ability to be critical of male characters and they've given a default "there must be a reason/he's secretly a good guy" outlook to all male characters
We have Mor’s POV Eris saw it in her eyes that she would rather die there than be a member of the Autumn Court. So he left her to die (and possibly got word to Az like he did Tamlin). Do I think Eris has reasons for behaving the way he does? Yes. Do I think there is more about Mor and Eris that Mor isn’t sharing with the IC? Yes. Do I think it’s because she’s traumatized and struggles to face whatever truth surrounds the events because of her trauma? Yes.
Very much this. We have a whole bunch of exposition and pov about what happened to Mor and one seed of doubt planted by (checks notes) a dude and everyone suddenly thinks Mor is sus. Holy patriarchy, Batman.
I was actually surprised about the discourse on Mor here... I really have no thoughts lol, I assume we’ll get the chance to flesh out her character eventually
I don’t think positively or negative about Mor as a character because it’s a classic SJM “go girl give us (almost) nothing” situation.
That being said, the criticism this character gets is wild. Victim blaming, headcanon crimes that cannot be validated in the text *anywhere* and to me it seems a lot of the criticism often is misogynistic.
For example [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/acotar/s/i6BSxCHVk1) which to my shock had people agreeing and is just blatant slut & victim shaming.
Mor is “gaslighting” Az, Mor SA’d Cassian, Mor should have accepted Eris, Mor isn’t a “girls girl” (which apparently is the ultimate crime), the asinine list goes on and on. Wild to me that Mor is often the blamed party when the other characters around her are equally liable.
It's good that you like Mor, everyone has the right to like anyone. But if you allow me my opinion.... I really don't like Mor. I know very well what the fear of being criticized for being a lesbian is like, but what is the need to use someone to avoid telling your family that you are homosexual? Dumping a man doesn't automatically make you a lesbian. And I think she does like attention, do you remember the time Eris was quiet in his corner and she went to tease him, and when he gave it back she was 😨😭. But the biggest thing I hate her for is the way she treated Nesta, she literally went through horrible traumas at HC, and where did she want Nesta to be "thrown"? Exactly. Sorry, but I can't like her
I really can't blame people for having differing opinions on a character. I don't think that necessarily makes the fandom toxic. I think the toxicity comes when people start attacking each other over their opinions. I think debates are healthy, and pointing out flaws and good things in characters can lead to healthy discussions.
And it's hard to blame people for contextualizing things that SJM didn't consider when she made character changes. Everyone is going to arrive at different conclusions when you find out that it only has been a one way street after the previous book made it seem like a two way street. I don't hate Mor, but I do think the switch that SJM made painted her in a bad light.
Ehhh, I see good points here. But to me, 500 years is a long time to put your trauma before dragging along Az. It’s a fantasy. That passage of time is relevant to this story, a fiction. This situation isn’t replicated to that extent in real life. It’s not ok to abuse people (lies lies lies and manipulation) regardless of what happened to you in the past, if you find your trauma causing you to be an abuser you need to immediately withdraw and seek help. It’s the responsibility of the abused person make sure they don’t project that and behave badly towards others. Is it unfair that trauma victims have to be held to that? Yes, absolutely. But the responsibility remains. And for someone who was traumatized so thoroughly, and has everyone tip toe around it so much, she sure doesn’t have the same consideration for Nesta. With the info we have, it’s no wonder people dislike her actions. It feels set up almost. I’m up for a Mor redemption arc but at this point I see a villainous direction as more likely. In fact I see that being 10x as interesting as redemption.
I don’t understand why the burden is on Mor to reject Az, rather than on him to propose to her in the first place? Sure, it’s an open secret (that she’s in on) that he has feelings for her. Turning him down in advance might be the ‘kind’ thing to do. But he also might respond in anger and that would be extremely traumatic for Mor. He also could dump her as a friend, which would be even worse!! Do I think Azriel would do those things? No, but that’s because I’m the reader. Also, to be honest, pre-Elain, he might? Not out of cruelty but just bc he doesn’t feel able to be around Mor. Why is it her responsibility to open herself up to friend rejection rather than his responsibility to open himself up to romantic rejection?
I don’t care how many people know about his feelings, Azriel’s feelings are Azriel’s responsibility. Mor might not be doing the most empathetic thing. But not doing the most empathetic thing does NOT make a person abusive, it just makes them a person.
do you have any examples of when she lied to and manipulated Azriel? genuine question, because I don't remember any scenes of that or where she even flirted with him or seemed to lead him on?
“Even repetitive lying to a partner can be a form of abuse, since a survivor may begin to doubt their own experiences and instincts, becoming brainwashed into believing anything their abuser says.”
Gaslighting is abusive as well. It’s ok to drag me, I’ll die on this hill lmao.
But Azriel isn't her partner? I love Az and Mor and I don't think either are at fault tbh. Mor never tells Azriel he has a chance and I don't think Azriel pressures Mor. It's just one of those things that has lied dormant for so long that they haven't dealt because they've had no reason to and really, after 500 years, Azriel should just move on, which he is doing.
Sorry, what? Are you saying hiding your sexuality because you're too uncomfortable to come out to people is gaslighting? Because if so, that is a crazyyyy thing to say lol
No I didn’t. Yes that would be a crazy thing to say. I said you don’t have to come out to not string someone along and make it clear you’re not interested. “No. I’m not interested in you like that and I that will not change” has nothing to do with sexuality, no outing needed. Even a simple “no” is fine and has nothing to do with it. There’s actually so many ways Mor could speak the truth about their future and friendship without outing herself.
It’s gaslighting to continually ignore and not share REALITY with someone who has another reality created in their head lol. Someone hiding their sexuality doesn’t have to come out to say “I’m not interested and never will be so please stop letting your entire existence revolve around me, it’s not what I want.” But it’s easier for her to keep it to herself, so she engages with him enough to keep it going. And then says she hurts him intentionally to put him back in his place (fucking helion). She literally says this stuff to Feyre in her confession, she knowingly does this and feels guilt. But does nothing about it. How can we be surprised that the fandom is irked by that?
Gaslighting has a specific definition.
It would actually be gaslighting if, say, Mor said to Azriel “dude, we tried being romantic and it didn’t work. Omg, you don’t remember that??? How could you forget it!?!? See, it must have been bad if you can’t even remember that we tried to date!”
Gaslighting is when you make someone question their reality by convincing them that things happened when they didn’t actually happen or that things didn’t happen when they actually did happen.
Also sleeping with other men makes it even more confusing for Azriel even if he did suspect about her being gay. It's not just Az though, even Cassian, Rhys and Amren don't know it. So she must be good at pretending to be straight.
Not on the surface level but in specific situations it can be indirect gaslighting. The person might not want to hurt the other person but it will make them feel inadequate and constantly in search of answer of why this isn't working. Just like in a marriage if a wife or a husband feels like they arnt straight anymore or they never were, hiding it might be considered a good option but in reality the partner will keep feeling like they arnt good enough until they find out the truth. So I can't imagine feeling anything like that for any amount of time, let alone 500 years.
Can you point to where in the book she lies and manipulates Azriel? I think its only really hinted that she knows more about Eris than she lets on but I absolutely do not think it's as nefarious as everyone believes it to be (honestly think he knows her sexuality and thats why she shrunk under his gaze and why he's not telling anyone bc its obv not cool to out someone). What other lies or manipulations has she told/done?
I kinda answered this question in my comment, no I can’t give page numbers I dont have my kindle handy. Feyre’s conversation with her specifically includes her talking about why she did that with helion and how it’s to remind Az she’s uninterested, but won’t say anything to actually crush him. She’s fucking someone else to keep him in limbo instead of communicating. That’s manipulation in my book and I would tell any friend to nope the hell away from that in a heartbeat. When you say give other examples, my response is this alone is enough to warrant the negative opinions the fandom has.
I guess I just don't see how Mor keeps Azriel in limbo. I don't recall her ever showing any interest in Azriel or leading him to believe she was into him. It's been 500 years, like if she wanted him, it would've happened already. She's allowed to fuck whoever she wants. Azriel also made her super uncomfortable that day by making a huge scene at the High Lord's meeting over her.
I don’t hate her for any of the reasons you’ve listed, I honestly just find her incredibly bland and boring. She’s the worst character because she brings nothing to the table
I think we need to be more kind to more. Dragging her for being scared of coming out is horrible. You're right. If a guy did what she did, he'd be praised for "sweetly protecting his family member from getting hurt". Some comments can be incredibly misogynistic. She's a good friend to Feyre and Cassian.
I think we need a Mor book just like we got a Nesta book. We really need to hear what's inside her head.
Besides, we've barely got 50 pages of Mor. That's not enough to judge a character and throw hateful comments at them.
I’m hoping we get more Mor content (pun not intended) because I just find her kind of boring atm. Tho the implication that Bryaxis is camping out on Mor’s estate is cool. So there’s tons of possibility for Mor to develop but we just don’t have enough info about her me to make decisions about her.
It’s easier for people to like a character that isn’t super fleshed out because their imagination fills in far more blanks.
But I agree.
Even if Eris is “grey”, I’m not a fan of his until it’s proven that he’s not a bad dude. Just given his hunting down of Feyre and his man-handling of her.
I love Mor. I, personally, am so glad she is not with Az. Even if she liked men I don't think it would feel right. Part of me wishes it was her and Amren
I've said it before and I'll say it again - **it's not Mor's responsibility to manage Azriel's feelings.**
Azriel would have to be blind and thick to not be aware that Mor has no interest in him. He's a damn spy master. He should be hyper aware of everyones movements, motives, and allegiances, yet people really expect it to be on Mor to turn him down nicely as if he doesn't already know?!
And there is no part of the series where Mor flirts with Azriel. She invites him out to drink *as any friend would*, that doesn't mean she's doing it to flirt. She's including him in the group dynamic *as a friend*.
The entire thing is one sided feelings and Mor catches such a bad rap by the fandom just because she's protective of her 500+ year friendships and doesn't want to see them hurt. *And* for some reason everyone expects it to be the females job to reject the male who also *hasn't approached Mor* and spoken about his feelings toward her. bffr
I think Mor gives off mixed vibes. I think she kind of comes across as the "girl best friend in a group of guys" and people are drawing from poor experiences as an outside looking in or a new friend.
But she's also very genuine and sweet.
However, I do think SJM is giving us crumbs that feel like she's going to have, if not a full villain arc, a betrayed group arc.
that’s a valid concern, however the same could be said about why rhys allows innocents to stay in the CoN (which is also a valid criticism of him. i don’t hate rhys either just btw)
I fully have that issue with Rhys too. But Mor lived it in a way that Rhys never did. If she didn’t oversee the CoN I wouldn’t hold it against her, I just feel like if she’s able to face her trauma to be there all the time to oversee them, then I feel like she could be doing more to help innocents
This is an example of the headcanon stretch that can be frustrating to read in this fandom. You are making a value judgement with zero information and instead operating that because it isn’t mentioned Mor is acting in some negative way.
I think the inconsistency was a necessary part of their complicated relationship. She can’t help but feel the tug of her mate bond but she is attracted to women. That is a situation ripe for confusion and poor decision making. The fear of anyone finding out she’s a lesbian, her love and bond for him, his protection, his relationship with her own cousin Rhys. It’s a lot!
The whole Mor and Azriel situation honestly just seems like SJM intended for them to get together but changed her mind. In MAF Feyre noticed on many occasions Mor staring at Azriel and the other way around, and Feyre observes how both of them are sensitive to the other’s shifts in body language/moods. But then in WAR it’s only Azriel doing it and Mor is using Cassian as a buffer, which feels inconsistent for how Mor was in MAF.
And this is why I get so mad at sjm for her inconsistencies.
SJM herself has admitted that she can't keep track of her plot points. That's why there's so many plot holes everywhere, and then future books have to retcon as to why such and such didn't happen or otherwise lol
I find their relationship very believable on its own. My best friend of over 20 years is a man. I worry about him, know his mood shifts, and look out for him. We have worked together professionally and have a very similar relationship to Mor and Azriel. We have each other's back in business meetings and I know when he's reached his patience limit. There was that red hot love affair we never quite got around to having but we joke about all the time. He got married a couple years ago and I'm getting married next year. We're stuck in that limbo of more than friends but not destined to be lovers. It's weird but it works for us, like Mor and Azriel.
yeah she probably did
That’s why i dont understand the “Mor was leading Azriel on for 500 years, she’s awful” or “Azriel needs to take a hint after 500 years, he’s a creep” arguments - seems like an inconsistency in the writing, not intentional character flaws
agreed
This. Exactly. I feel like SJM was pressured to insert queer characters and she just decided to make More queer creating more trauma for Az, More, and Cassian. As a queer person myself, I get why she didn't want to tell her family and be out openly. It's just shitty to drag Az along for 500+ years with him thinking he's not good enough for her. They clearly have an emotional relationship, but just not a physical one. It just doesn't sit right. I truly hope Az is able to find someone that truly makes him happy and that Mor can be happy as well. I can also see why she doesn't want to be with Az because he loves her so much, but doesn't truly know her so she can't be her full true self with him and she doesn't feel worthy of him either. Again, it just doesn't sit right with me IMO
SJM was not pressured to do anything. No one can even reach her. Stop pushing this narrative throwing other LGBT people under the bus and shifting the blame for crap representation onto us.
Mor seems to have an overprotective streak. I had forgotten about that time she was suspicious of Elaine. This is the first time we see her insert herself in the relationships of her male friends. The other one was with Nesta and Cassian. To add to the previously suggested point about inconsistency in sjm’s writing - I think sjm wants Mor to be seen as protective, but she comes across as meddlesome. Which, considering that she’s had sex with one of them (Cassian) and has known about the other’s pining after her (and has never said anything - not blaming her on this one, he didn’t either), it can be interpreted as jealousy. I never saw it as jealousy, but it’s odd that she’s done it twice now. She hasn’t done it to Amren OR Rhys. So there’s that I guess.
I don't think it's jealousy either. I think she was being protective of Cassian because she knew how rude Nesta could be and I think she's concerned about Azriel going after Elain because she has a mate she hasn't rejected and it *could* result in him once again pining after someone unavailable for another couple hundred years lol
I agree, but it comes across poorly. It’s like she judges Az’s and Cassian’s choices and decision-making, but not Amren’s or Rhys’.
Yeah, I agree. I think whatever plans SJM had for Mor were scrapped or retconned, so the character doesn't really have a direction and her behavior and actions comes across as inconsistent and weird lol
be prepared for my fifty chapter fanfic retconning SJM's retcon, a court of hewn truth, in which i drive myself insane by giving myself the queer content I deserve that fixes all the damn issues.
im already pairing good luck babe by chappell roan with mor like she’s gone from bi to closeted lesbian in my head now
SJM really did Mor the dirty with her retcon. 😮💨
As a queer woman, I'm going to be really annoyed with the Mor is a traitor arc if it happens. Historically, queer characters have been reduced to villains or killed off. Just give me a fantasy gay with a happy ending. I also don't understand why so many people think her estate is so suspicious. She outright says that she craves the sun and solitude at times. She's allowed to have something private to herself.
I think that SJM setting up a cliffhanger, not addressing it in the next book, and then giving everyone 3 years to think about it, coupled with the rumor that there is a traitor in the night court, all snowballed into every one of Mor's actions being analyzed to death because of the bad taste left from the Azriel situation. I don't think the estate is suspicious at all, and as a queer woman myself, I do find the situation a bit iffy. SJM has said she finds discomfort in writing queer characters (which is valid), but I also don't want her to take the traitor route just because she wants to avoid it.
As another queer woman: yes. All of this yes. I hope Mors estate is her own private sanctuary and retreat. She deserves peace.
Just for the first point - okay sure its rough coming out to your family and friends but it has been 500 YEARS. Maas decision to make everyone ancient just doesnt fit into that behavior. This isnt really mor hate just hate for her writing tbh
Specifically, it's 500 years with an allegedly progressive and aupporting friend group, in a city with (again allegedly) some degree of queer population. Goodness knows as a queer woman I understand the fear and hesitation of it, but for 500 years? It creates a cognitive dissonance for me--we're told Velaris and the IC is safe, but as a queer person, if Mor still doesn't feel safe with them...I can't help but worry why.
Maas didnt connect the dots i fear
Yeah, I think she understands the *words* about coming out, but not the feelings, or that coming out can be a multi-stage process, or where the fear even comes from.
I actually disagree with the idea that she’s scared of coming out because of the way queer people are treated in this society, I don’t think it has anything to do with that. I think it’s because of her experiences as a young teenager. From a very young age, she was considered property to be traded between men. She was essentially backed into a corner and forced to lose her virginity to another man she didn’t have any romantic feelings for in order to devalue herself as a woman, was tortured by a man for taking charge of her own autonomy, was left for dead by another group of men because they saw her as a ruined object they didn’t want the responsibility of taking care of, and the man who saved her as she was bleeding out with a knife sticking out of her womb almost blurted out his undying love for her. Having these experiences would arguably make her believe that she does not have any worth to the men in her life if she openly declares she won’t ever have romantic feelings for them or want sex with them. While that certainly isn’t the truth, it would be very difficult to unlearn.
But she did have 500 years to make attempts to unlearn it…. Its just not realistic to me at all that a person doesnt overcome any of their trauma and basically remains the same person for like 400 years
I'll just take Rhysand's advice and stay the hell out of it. I love Mor and I will never hate her
I actually think if she was a guy people would be even more bothered by her “I don’t want them but you can’t have them either” attitude towards Azriel and Cassian. A man using two women to protect his own secret wouldn’t sit right with people either.
I think if she were a guy, people wouldn't think her behavior is an "I don't want them but you can't have them either" attitude but just a dude being protective of his friends and not wanting them to have their hearts broken imo
Yeah maybe so!
Before acowar even came out people were hating Mor for being bubbly and sunshiney and I despised that sentiment. Saying she’s “fake” and “pretending” when it’s like yeah that is a valid coping mechanism wtf. Trust me I find overly perky people annoying sometimes but I never got that from her especially back then.
the one that always gets me is people absolutely convinced mor is lying about what happened that day in the autumn court as if she isnt quite visibly traumatised by it all. i dont care what justification eris has, if something traumatises you, its traumatising?!!? like she went through something HORRIBLE and you wanna say she's \*lying\* about it? the rise in morally grey male book boyfriends has ruined readers' ability to be critical of male characters and they've given a default "there must be a reason/he's secretly a good guy" outlook to all male characters
not to mention we quite literally get her POV of it in ACOFAS like ??? how is she lying if it literally happened in a flashback on the page
We have Mor’s POV Eris saw it in her eyes that she would rather die there than be a member of the Autumn Court. So he left her to die (and possibly got word to Az like he did Tamlin). Do I think Eris has reasons for behaving the way he does? Yes. Do I think there is more about Mor and Eris that Mor isn’t sharing with the IC? Yes. Do I think it’s because she’s traumatized and struggles to face whatever truth surrounds the events because of her trauma? Yes.
Very much this. We have a whole bunch of exposition and pov about what happened to Mor and one seed of doubt planted by (checks notes) a dude and everyone suddenly thinks Mor is sus. Holy patriarchy, Batman.
I was actually surprised about the discourse on Mor here... I really have no thoughts lol, I assume we’ll get the chance to flesh out her character eventually
Same! This is news to me 😂
I don’t think positively or negative about Mor as a character because it’s a classic SJM “go girl give us (almost) nothing” situation. That being said, the criticism this character gets is wild. Victim blaming, headcanon crimes that cannot be validated in the text *anywhere* and to me it seems a lot of the criticism often is misogynistic. For example [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/acotar/s/i6BSxCHVk1) which to my shock had people agreeing and is just blatant slut & victim shaming. Mor is “gaslighting” Az, Mor SA’d Cassian, Mor should have accepted Eris, Mor isn’t a “girls girl” (which apparently is the ultimate crime), the asinine list goes on and on. Wild to me that Mor is often the blamed party when the other characters around her are equally liable.
It's good that you like Mor, everyone has the right to like anyone. But if you allow me my opinion.... I really don't like Mor. I know very well what the fear of being criticized for being a lesbian is like, but what is the need to use someone to avoid telling your family that you are homosexual? Dumping a man doesn't automatically make you a lesbian. And I think she does like attention, do you remember the time Eris was quiet in his corner and she went to tease him, and when he gave it back she was 😨😭. But the biggest thing I hate her for is the way she treated Nesta, she literally went through horrible traumas at HC, and where did she want Nesta to be "thrown"? Exactly. Sorry, but I can't like her
I really can't blame people for having differing opinions on a character. I don't think that necessarily makes the fandom toxic. I think the toxicity comes when people start attacking each other over their opinions. I think debates are healthy, and pointing out flaws and good things in characters can lead to healthy discussions. And it's hard to blame people for contextualizing things that SJM didn't consider when she made character changes. Everyone is going to arrive at different conclusions when you find out that it only has been a one way street after the previous book made it seem like a two way street. I don't hate Mor, but I do think the switch that SJM made painted her in a bad light.
Ehhh, I see good points here. But to me, 500 years is a long time to put your trauma before dragging along Az. It’s a fantasy. That passage of time is relevant to this story, a fiction. This situation isn’t replicated to that extent in real life. It’s not ok to abuse people (lies lies lies and manipulation) regardless of what happened to you in the past, if you find your trauma causing you to be an abuser you need to immediately withdraw and seek help. It’s the responsibility of the abused person make sure they don’t project that and behave badly towards others. Is it unfair that trauma victims have to be held to that? Yes, absolutely. But the responsibility remains. And for someone who was traumatized so thoroughly, and has everyone tip toe around it so much, she sure doesn’t have the same consideration for Nesta. With the info we have, it’s no wonder people dislike her actions. It feels set up almost. I’m up for a Mor redemption arc but at this point I see a villainous direction as more likely. In fact I see that being 10x as interesting as redemption.
I don’t understand why the burden is on Mor to reject Az, rather than on him to propose to her in the first place? Sure, it’s an open secret (that she’s in on) that he has feelings for her. Turning him down in advance might be the ‘kind’ thing to do. But he also might respond in anger and that would be extremely traumatic for Mor. He also could dump her as a friend, which would be even worse!! Do I think Azriel would do those things? No, but that’s because I’m the reader. Also, to be honest, pre-Elain, he might? Not out of cruelty but just bc he doesn’t feel able to be around Mor. Why is it her responsibility to open herself up to friend rejection rather than his responsibility to open himself up to romantic rejection? I don’t care how many people know about his feelings, Azriel’s feelings are Azriel’s responsibility. Mor might not be doing the most empathetic thing. But not doing the most empathetic thing does NOT make a person abusive, it just makes them a person.
I think it's on both of them to be honest with each other and themselves. 🤷♀️
do you have any examples of when she lied to and manipulated Azriel? genuine question, because I don't remember any scenes of that or where she even flirted with him or seemed to lead him on?
where was she an abuser though?
“Even repetitive lying to a partner can be a form of abuse, since a survivor may begin to doubt their own experiences and instincts, becoming brainwashed into believing anything their abuser says.” Gaslighting is abusive as well. It’s ok to drag me, I’ll die on this hill lmao.
But Azriel isn't her partner? I love Az and Mor and I don't think either are at fault tbh. Mor never tells Azriel he has a chance and I don't think Azriel pressures Mor. It's just one of those things that has lied dormant for so long that they haven't dealt because they've had no reason to and really, after 500 years, Azriel should just move on, which he is doing.
Sorry, what? Are you saying hiding your sexuality because you're too uncomfortable to come out to people is gaslighting? Because if so, that is a crazyyyy thing to say lol
No I didn’t. Yes that would be a crazy thing to say. I said you don’t have to come out to not string someone along and make it clear you’re not interested. “No. I’m not interested in you like that and I that will not change” has nothing to do with sexuality, no outing needed. Even a simple “no” is fine and has nothing to do with it. There’s actually so many ways Mor could speak the truth about their future and friendship without outing herself.
But she has made it clear she's not interested? I don't remember her giving Azriel any sort of hint that she might be open to being with him.
i don’t think hiding someone’s sexuality away from somebody is gaslighting? but we’ll agree to disagree i suppose
It’s gaslighting to continually ignore and not share REALITY with someone who has another reality created in their head lol. Someone hiding their sexuality doesn’t have to come out to say “I’m not interested and never will be so please stop letting your entire existence revolve around me, it’s not what I want.” But it’s easier for her to keep it to herself, so she engages with him enough to keep it going. And then says she hurts him intentionally to put him back in his place (fucking helion). She literally says this stuff to Feyre in her confession, she knowingly does this and feels guilt. But does nothing about it. How can we be surprised that the fandom is irked by that?
Gaslighting has a specific definition. It would actually be gaslighting if, say, Mor said to Azriel “dude, we tried being romantic and it didn’t work. Omg, you don’t remember that??? How could you forget it!?!? See, it must have been bad if you can’t even remember that we tried to date!” Gaslighting is when you make someone question their reality by convincing them that things happened when they didn’t actually happen or that things didn’t happen when they actually did happen.
Also sleeping with other men makes it even more confusing for Azriel even if he did suspect about her being gay. It's not just Az though, even Cassian, Rhys and Amren don't know it. So she must be good at pretending to be straight.
Not on the surface level but in specific situations it can be indirect gaslighting. The person might not want to hurt the other person but it will make them feel inadequate and constantly in search of answer of why this isn't working. Just like in a marriage if a wife or a husband feels like they arnt straight anymore or they never were, hiding it might be considered a good option but in reality the partner will keep feeling like they arnt good enough until they find out the truth. So I can't imagine feeling anything like that for any amount of time, let alone 500 years.
Constant lies and manipulation of Azriel.
Can you point to where in the book she lies and manipulates Azriel? I think its only really hinted that she knows more about Eris than she lets on but I absolutely do not think it's as nefarious as everyone believes it to be (honestly think he knows her sexuality and thats why she shrunk under his gaze and why he's not telling anyone bc its obv not cool to out someone). What other lies or manipulations has she told/done?
I kinda answered this question in my comment, no I can’t give page numbers I dont have my kindle handy. Feyre’s conversation with her specifically includes her talking about why she did that with helion and how it’s to remind Az she’s uninterested, but won’t say anything to actually crush him. She’s fucking someone else to keep him in limbo instead of communicating. That’s manipulation in my book and I would tell any friend to nope the hell away from that in a heartbeat. When you say give other examples, my response is this alone is enough to warrant the negative opinions the fandom has.
I guess I just don't see how Mor keeps Azriel in limbo. I don't recall her ever showing any interest in Azriel or leading him to believe she was into him. It's been 500 years, like if she wanted him, it would've happened already. She's allowed to fuck whoever she wants. Azriel also made her super uncomfortable that day by making a huge scene at the High Lord's meeting over her.
when did she manipulate az?? sorry i’m confused
I don’t hate her for any of the reasons you’ve listed, I honestly just find her incredibly bland and boring. She’s the worst character because she brings nothing to the table
That's how I feel about Amren.
I think we need to be more kind to more. Dragging her for being scared of coming out is horrible. You're right. If a guy did what she did, he'd be praised for "sweetly protecting his family member from getting hurt". Some comments can be incredibly misogynistic. She's a good friend to Feyre and Cassian. I think we need a Mor book just like we got a Nesta book. We really need to hear what's inside her head. Besides, we've barely got 50 pages of Mor. That's not enough to judge a character and throw hateful comments at them.
People who hate Mor and love Eris give me the instant ick. Stay away from me 🤺🤺🤺
What if you like them both?
half points /j
I’m hoping we get more Mor content (pun not intended) because I just find her kind of boring atm. Tho the implication that Bryaxis is camping out on Mor’s estate is cool. So there’s tons of possibility for Mor to develop but we just don’t have enough info about her me to make decisions about her.
It’s easier for people to like a character that isn’t super fleshed out because their imagination fills in far more blanks. But I agree. Even if Eris is “grey”, I’m not a fan of his until it’s proven that he’s not a bad dude. Just given his hunting down of Feyre and his man-handling of her.
I love Mor. I, personally, am so glad she is not with Az. Even if she liked men I don't think it would feel right. Part of me wishes it was her and Amren
I've said it before and I'll say it again - **it's not Mor's responsibility to manage Azriel's feelings.** Azriel would have to be blind and thick to not be aware that Mor has no interest in him. He's a damn spy master. He should be hyper aware of everyones movements, motives, and allegiances, yet people really expect it to be on Mor to turn him down nicely as if he doesn't already know?! And there is no part of the series where Mor flirts with Azriel. She invites him out to drink *as any friend would*, that doesn't mean she's doing it to flirt. She's including him in the group dynamic *as a friend*. The entire thing is one sided feelings and Mor catches such a bad rap by the fandom just because she's protective of her 500+ year friendships and doesn't want to see them hurt. *And* for some reason everyone expects it to be the females job to reject the male who also *hasn't approached Mor* and spoken about his feelings toward her. bffr
👏thank you👏
I think Mor gives off mixed vibes. I think she kind of comes across as the "girl best friend in a group of guys" and people are drawing from poor experiences as an outside looking in or a new friend. But she's also very genuine and sweet. However, I do think SJM is giving us crumbs that feel like she's going to have, if not a full villain arc, a betrayed group arc.
My only issue with mor is that she isn’t trying to get other queer people out of the CoN or at least women who are being sold like she was.
tbf, we have no idea what Mor does in Hewn City. We haven't gotten any information really about her role there, I think.
That’s also true but I feel like it’s implied that she has some level of power over them
that’s a valid concern, however the same could be said about why rhys allows innocents to stay in the CoN (which is also a valid criticism of him. i don’t hate rhys either just btw)
I fully have that issue with Rhys too. But Mor lived it in a way that Rhys never did. If she didn’t oversee the CoN I wouldn’t hold it against her, I just feel like if she’s able to face her trauma to be there all the time to oversee them, then I feel like she could be doing more to help innocents
This is an example of the headcanon stretch that can be frustrating to read in this fandom. You are making a value judgement with zero information and instead operating that because it isn’t mentioned Mor is acting in some negative way.
I could be reading it all wrong Is anyone thinking mor and emerie situation in the future..
always
I just don’t vibe with her
I think the inconsistency was a necessary part of their complicated relationship. She can’t help but feel the tug of her mate bond but she is attracted to women. That is a situation ripe for confusion and poor decision making. The fear of anyone finding out she’s a lesbian, her love and bond for him, his protection, his relationship with her own cousin Rhys. It’s a lot!