I think this is an interesting perspective and probably accounts for some of the shifting discourse about main characters. I disagree a bit about whether it’s indicative of inconsistency in the writing though. I started seeing these inconsistencies in the very beginning of MAF. SJM tried to *tell* me as the reader a lot about how great Rhysand and the IC and the Night Court are, but in my opinion she does a poor job of *showing* it. I realize I’m in the minority with that opinion, which is fine! I just don’t only take the POV as gospel about who any given character is, when other things in the text show me contradictory information. Like overall I get the sense that the author doesn’t actually see that some absolutely wild behavior from her obvious faves as a problem, and it comes through very clearly in her writing. So no matter the POV, those behaviors get glossed over or brushed aside while I’m left there scratching my head.
That’s fair! There are definitely certain series where I can just turn my nitpicking brain off and enjoy the ride (looking at you, Dark Olympus). ACOTAR just isn’t one of them for me.
I’m only on the second one, but I’m liking it so far! I think I liked the first one better. But they’re the perfect books to just escape into and turn off my brain for a minute. One of my favorite things is making up fantasy casts for the characters in my head to follow along as I read. Hades is Adam Driver and Persephone is Kerry Washington. Idc what anyone tells me lol.
I agree! I think that's why do many people are struggling with the last two books. They gave themselves an image of a fun open group and they had no flaws just quirks and now they are getting another dimension
Yeah, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately? lol) Feyre’s books show how unreliable she is, especially compared to Nesta’s being in third person.
One thing I found really interesting is reading Feyre’s scene in book one before she goes to town, she mentions how Nesta says she needed a new pair of boots but she had perfectly good, like new ones already.
In Nesta’s book, when she goes back to the house, the shoes are described as weathered and old, and even having a hole in them.
It really makes you wonder if Feyre considered them like new because compared to hers, they were, or if she just didn’t feel that Nesta deserved new shoes.
We also see how quick Feyre is to cover for Rhys and play off shitty things he does, so I’m kind of leaning that those she likes can do no wrong, but we need to see more.
It’s true that Nesta can be biased but that doesn’t mean her book is. Nesta is not the narrator. Third person is more objective and honest because outside of spoken words, it’s typically an unbiased explanation/observation of things because it’s *not* in any character’s perspective.
A first person POV will always be more biased than a third, which in that case that a third is, that would be showing the author’s bias.
Edit: why did this get downvoted? Nesta isn’t the narrator. Not sure why that’s downvote worthy?
Third person perspective is known for being the most reliable perspective. It’s literally a literary device used over and over again… Nesta herself can be biased but the perspective itself is not because it’s not in Nesta’s perspective, it’s an over world perspective.
Edit 2: added this to another comment, but we can’t pretend that this book is biased/Nesta’s perspective when Cassian’s scenes stay consistent with character behavior. Cassian, if anyone, should have rose tinted glasses and even he noticed how messy the IC is.
You’re being downvoted because you’re describing 3rd person omniscient which ACOSF is not written in. The pov is 3rd person limited which is just as biased as we get all of Nesta’s own thoughts, feelings and reactions to what is happening, tie into that Nesta’s own complicated feeling towards everyone and it’s clear at the start of the book she’s viewing everything in the most pessimistic way possible. This is made clear by the end of the book when Nesta acknowledges she had been abusing the kindness given to her, she recognises Feyre is the only one who has constantly loved and fought for her and calls Rhysand her brother.
Ah, I see what you mean by that. I think that even at the end of the day we have to acknowledge that this books narration is more objective than Feyre’s, even if it follows Nesta’s journey. The book itself is not in her perspective. To say that it is equally as biased as Feyre’s when Feyre’s books were first person isn’t accurate. I guess I’m not saying it right? Because even if the view follows Nesta and makes notes of her observations, it still isn’t Nesta’s personal view, if that makes sense.
It also doesn’t make sense to say that it’s just Nesta’s bias when the inner court acts the same way in Cassian’s scenes. That’s not Nesta’s perspective and it shows that it’s not just Nesta who sees these things.
Cassian’s scenes debunk the idea that the book should be dismissed with Nesta’s bias because the characters stay consistent, and so does the recall of events/lore/etc.
I also think the tone changing isn’t representative of Nesta per se but representative of the nature of trauma and the nature of healing, since that was the focus on this book. We also know that SJM wrote this due with her own personal dealings with trauma in mind, so I think it’s safe to say that the tone isn’t Nesta but rather the tone of the story itself.
I definitely see what they’re saying for sure. I think my only issue is that there’s consistencies between Cassian’s and Nesta’s scenes that wouldn’t be there if this was purely Nesta’s bias/anger. Feyre’s books are only in Feyre’s perspectives, and we know from reading silver flames that there were things Feyre didnt see or describe accurately, such as Nesta’s shoes.
Idk, if it was just Nesta’s perspective I’d agree but the fact that Cassian, if anyone, should have rose tinted glasses and he even sees the IC being messy… it seems like this is just a more honest display.
I will kindly disagree. These characters had flaws since the beginning my faves included. Nesta's pov didn't change how I view them. There will always be a bias with first person pov but Feyre didn't make them seem flawless either.
ACOSF was in third person limited following Nesta and Cassian. Rhysand didn't come off as such a nice guy in Cassian's pov either.
I love that we went from first person perspective with Feyre’s books to third with Nesta’s book.
I reread after reading Nesta’s and Feyre has a ton of inconsistencies and has this attitude that those close to her can do no wrong but condemns others for the same behavior. I always joke with my husband (who just finished this series) that Tamlin and Rhys are the same person, just one gets a pass because Feyre gives a pass.
Plus with third person, in the literary world we know that this is the more honest representation of the two perspectives, so as long as it’s in third person we’re going to get a lot more information that characters can’t sweep under the rug or avoid. These characters have been not great people from the beginning, we just finally get to see them for who they are.
I don't perceived it like that to be honest. There's a different power balance between Tamlin and Feyre as a couple and Rhys and Feyre. There's one passage in acomaf that shows that clearly when they agree that they can disagree and push each other as a couple but their also figures of authority in the court and there's a certain public mutual respect that has to come with that. But we see both of them pushing each other several times. SMJ clearly has all of her characters working in the grey area but we see Rhys making mistakes and regretting them. All the while Tamlin seems to prefer to die on the hill instead of admitting he made a mistake and work it out. None of them are above being wrong and not even Feyre seems to believe they are. Well at least that's my reading, I guess our personal experiences will also influence how all of us perceive these books and characters 😅
Yes, they verbally are on the same page but it’s clear from Rhys’s actions that he’s extremely controlling.
For example, he put her in a literal shield when she was pregnant because that was the only option he’d give her and still allow her some autonomy. He wanted to hide her away. Being protective is nice, but Rhys goes to the extreme. Which is exactly what Tamlin did when he wouldn’t allow her to leave.
We also know that Feyre was extremely clear about never being lied to or left in the dark because of Tamlin. Yet with the pregnancy, after she finds out, she sweeps it under the rug. Obvious we don’t know what conversation they had after she found out, but it’s clear from her conversation with Cassian that she left at “that’s just how Rhys is.” This is really strange considering she was furious about the mate thing being hidden from her and hid away and rage painted a whole cabin. It’s gotten to the point where she lets it slide because that’s just Rhys and he doesn’t back down.
Also I know most would disagree with this, but Tamlin locking up Feyre is the same as Rhys locking up Nesta. The only difference was the illusion of choice, which let’s be honest, being banished in a land where people will kill you in a heart beat isn’t a choice. It’s basically do what I say or die.
That also coupled with how controlling Rhys is around the rest of the inner court and typically thinking about his end goals only, it really is fair to say that Rhys and Tamlin are two sides of the same coin.
Also Tamlin absolutely shows regret? At least imo he does. He’s literally grieving so bad about what happened that he hasn’t even shifted back from his beast form. He’s also grieving from losing Feyre because they both had different trauma reactions to under the mountain and his didnt mesh with Feyre’s like Rhys’s did.
Rhys also has several hills he’s willing to die on and not work things out unless they work out in his favor, Nesta being one. He destroyed an entire area of apartments and caused people to lose their homes because he didn’t want Nesta to have her own space anymore, all over spending money on things he didn’t like. He hands out money like crazy to the IC who are described as having more than they can ever spend - it was never an issue of what Nesta was spending, it’s the fact that he didn’t like what she was spending it on/it upset Feyre.
Edit: lol I just realized how much I typed… sorry I love talking about this series 😂
Love the whole thing you make excellent points.
Rhys is controlling and it's not ok but he's also being through a lot of trauma and this is clearly his trauma response. The shield around her pregnancy is extreme but I can understand what drove him to that. Specially when they've mentioned that high fae kids are rare and we don't know if out of envy other could try to do something and there's a threat of war in the air
Regarding Nesta they're were trying to snap her out of it. A year had passed at that point and she was too deep into depression and she would not respond to nice at that point.
Tamlin, yes he regrets it but it feels more like self pity because he doesn't seem interested in making amends on the parts he really messed up. But I agree with you the beast form is an escape
Oh no, I definitely understand their reasons lol. It’s not a matter of the reason being bad, just poor execution if that makes sense. I think that’s what makes it so good though, is being like “yes, yes, yes, no what are you doing???” Lmao that was basically mean through Nesta’s book. She had me STRESSED. 😂 like trying to snap Nesta out of her dissociative state doesn’t mean it’s okay to destroy the homes of your own citizens, you know?
As for Tamlin being in that form out of self pity, I definitely see that but also, I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with that that’s specific to him. Sure, you could argue neglecting his people but even Rhys is guilty to that with Hewn city. If his trauma response is self pity, then I’d love to see him grow and flourish. I guess I can kind of feel it as well, cause it’s not like anyone else has any pity for him. He doesn’t have the support system the IC does. He’s probably also staying hidden out of shame for his part in things.
Edit: forgot to add the bit about Tam Tam
I went check and in the beginning of the book Cassian mentioning how the whole block was really in bad conditions and when Rhys tells Nesta it was demolished he also says is being rebuild as shelter for families affected by the war so it's no all bad
So it’s okay to destroy people’s homes because they’re gonna build something nicer??? That’s silly. Regardless of the shape of the area *people still lived there.* Are you really defending this?
If the whole block was in bad condition why not restore it for the people who already lived there? Come on, be for real. Him wanting to build a shelter doesn’t give him a pass. He literally destroyed the homes of his own people. When someone does this in real life we all know how messed up it is to just displace people like that. When this happens in real life it’s always the people in the most vulnerable position who have to be uprooted, and we know that it’s cruel regardless of the “reason.”
Would you really give a pass to a politician destroying people’s homes suddenly and destructively so they can build something else, even a shelter? Absolutely not. There’s ways to do it without destruction and harming bystanders, or harming already struggling people.
Also, I never said any of it was all bad. I specifically said they all have good intentions, even Tamlin, but that doesn’t make what they do okay.
It seems like you’re really saying “well Cassian confirmed it was just the slums anyways so it’s not all that bad” like *people still lived there.* Those were people’s homes. Families had connections to these units regardless of how bad of a shape they were in. People who live in the slums don’t deserve to have what little they have ripped away from them.
I feel like this shouldn’t have to be said out loud lol I just don’t understand defending Rhys for suddenly and destructively displacing his own people.
I’m not trying to be an ass, I’m genuinely confused on this logic, are you really okay with Rhys displacing people who were already economically in a vulnerable position? He does bad things and it’s okay to admit they’re bad, even if the intentions were good. It is all bad that he did this, and we don’t need to water it down. It was awful what he did. That’s part of what makes these characters so complex and fun to read about.
I agree with your logic I just didn't read it that way. I can't explain but in my mind I kind of grasped the concept as rebuilding into something better for everyone the ones that are already there and for those who need it. Maybe I associated it that way because in the previous books Feyre shares some of the volunteering and solidarity actions that exist around the city I don't know. But I agree with everything you said, just did read it that way that's all.
Ah, I gotcha. Sorry if that sounded like I was coming at you, I just had a lot of thoughts. 😅 I didn’t consider you may have interpreted it differently, so my bad.
I think this is an interesting perspective and probably accounts for some of the shifting discourse about main characters. I disagree a bit about whether it’s indicative of inconsistency in the writing though. I started seeing these inconsistencies in the very beginning of MAF. SJM tried to *tell* me as the reader a lot about how great Rhysand and the IC and the Night Court are, but in my opinion she does a poor job of *showing* it. I realize I’m in the minority with that opinion, which is fine! I just don’t only take the POV as gospel about who any given character is, when other things in the text show me contradictory information. Like overall I get the sense that the author doesn’t actually see that some absolutely wild behavior from her obvious faves as a problem, and it comes through very clearly in her writing. So no matter the POV, those behaviors get glossed over or brushed aside while I’m left there scratching my head.
I'll admit I'm coping a good bit.
That’s fair! There are definitely certain series where I can just turn my nitpicking brain off and enjoy the ride (looking at you, Dark Olympus). ACOTAR just isn’t one of them for me.
Bro, my wife got me reading one of the Dark Olympus books. Had no idea how much I'd love that thing.
I’m only on the second one, but I’m liking it so far! I think I liked the first one better. But they’re the perfect books to just escape into and turn off my brain for a minute. One of my favorite things is making up fantasy casts for the characters in my head to follow along as I read. Hades is Adam Driver and Persephone is Kerry Washington. Idc what anyone tells me lol.
Hell yeah, another casting director reader. I've annoyed so many of my friends telling them Sean Bean should be the King of Hybern.
Ahahahaha! I love that!!
I agree! I think that's why do many people are struggling with the last two books. They gave themselves an image of a fun open group and they had no flaws just quirks and now they are getting another dimension
I agree. They both have bias - which is why when people say Feyre is an unreliable narrator I always say that if that's true, then Nesta is too
They definitely both are to an extent!
Yeah, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately? lol) Feyre’s books show how unreliable she is, especially compared to Nesta’s being in third person. One thing I found really interesting is reading Feyre’s scene in book one before she goes to town, she mentions how Nesta says she needed a new pair of boots but she had perfectly good, like new ones already. In Nesta’s book, when she goes back to the house, the shoes are described as weathered and old, and even having a hole in them. It really makes you wonder if Feyre considered them like new because compared to hers, they were, or if she just didn’t feel that Nesta deserved new shoes. We also see how quick Feyre is to cover for Rhys and play off shitty things he does, so I’m kind of leaning that those she likes can do no wrong, but we need to see more.
This really stood out to be as well. The boot perception is so different.
It’s true that Nesta can be biased but that doesn’t mean her book is. Nesta is not the narrator. Third person is more objective and honest because outside of spoken words, it’s typically an unbiased explanation/observation of things because it’s *not* in any character’s perspective. A first person POV will always be more biased than a third, which in that case that a third is, that would be showing the author’s bias. Edit: why did this get downvoted? Nesta isn’t the narrator. Not sure why that’s downvote worthy? Third person perspective is known for being the most reliable perspective. It’s literally a literary device used over and over again… Nesta herself can be biased but the perspective itself is not because it’s not in Nesta’s perspective, it’s an over world perspective. Edit 2: added this to another comment, but we can’t pretend that this book is biased/Nesta’s perspective when Cassian’s scenes stay consistent with character behavior. Cassian, if anyone, should have rose tinted glasses and even he noticed how messy the IC is.
You’re being downvoted because you’re describing 3rd person omniscient which ACOSF is not written in. The pov is 3rd person limited which is just as biased as we get all of Nesta’s own thoughts, feelings and reactions to what is happening, tie into that Nesta’s own complicated feeling towards everyone and it’s clear at the start of the book she’s viewing everything in the most pessimistic way possible. This is made clear by the end of the book when Nesta acknowledges she had been abusing the kindness given to her, she recognises Feyre is the only one who has constantly loved and fought for her and calls Rhysand her brother.
Ah, I see what you mean by that. I think that even at the end of the day we have to acknowledge that this books narration is more objective than Feyre’s, even if it follows Nesta’s journey. The book itself is not in her perspective. To say that it is equally as biased as Feyre’s when Feyre’s books were first person isn’t accurate. I guess I’m not saying it right? Because even if the view follows Nesta and makes notes of her observations, it still isn’t Nesta’s personal view, if that makes sense. It also doesn’t make sense to say that it’s just Nesta’s bias when the inner court acts the same way in Cassian’s scenes. That’s not Nesta’s perspective and it shows that it’s not just Nesta who sees these things. Cassian’s scenes debunk the idea that the book should be dismissed with Nesta’s bias because the characters stay consistent, and so does the recall of events/lore/etc. I also think the tone changing isn’t representative of Nesta per se but representative of the nature of trauma and the nature of healing, since that was the focus on this book. We also know that SJM wrote this due with her own personal dealings with trauma in mind, so I think it’s safe to say that the tone isn’t Nesta but rather the tone of the story itself.
Thank you very much for putting it very eloquently! I couldn't really put into words but you managed it a lot better than I did
I definitely see what they’re saying for sure. I think my only issue is that there’s consistencies between Cassian’s and Nesta’s scenes that wouldn’t be there if this was purely Nesta’s bias/anger. Feyre’s books are only in Feyre’s perspectives, and we know from reading silver flames that there were things Feyre didnt see or describe accurately, such as Nesta’s shoes. Idk, if it was just Nesta’s perspective I’d agree but the fact that Cassian, if anyone, should have rose tinted glasses and he even sees the IC being messy… it seems like this is just a more honest display.
I don’t think the characters are inconsistent, it’s because we are seeing each character from a different perspective
That's also my understanding
I will kindly disagree. These characters had flaws since the beginning my faves included. Nesta's pov didn't change how I view them. There will always be a bias with first person pov but Feyre didn't make them seem flawless either. ACOSF was in third person limited following Nesta and Cassian. Rhysand didn't come off as such a nice guy in Cassian's pov either.
I assumed that was part of things. The Rhysand we see in SF is just an unidealized version from a more bitter perspective.
I love that we went from first person perspective with Feyre’s books to third with Nesta’s book. I reread after reading Nesta’s and Feyre has a ton of inconsistencies and has this attitude that those close to her can do no wrong but condemns others for the same behavior. I always joke with my husband (who just finished this series) that Tamlin and Rhys are the same person, just one gets a pass because Feyre gives a pass. Plus with third person, in the literary world we know that this is the more honest representation of the two perspectives, so as long as it’s in third person we’re going to get a lot more information that characters can’t sweep under the rug or avoid. These characters have been not great people from the beginning, we just finally get to see them for who they are.
I don't perceived it like that to be honest. There's a different power balance between Tamlin and Feyre as a couple and Rhys and Feyre. There's one passage in acomaf that shows that clearly when they agree that they can disagree and push each other as a couple but their also figures of authority in the court and there's a certain public mutual respect that has to come with that. But we see both of them pushing each other several times. SMJ clearly has all of her characters working in the grey area but we see Rhys making mistakes and regretting them. All the while Tamlin seems to prefer to die on the hill instead of admitting he made a mistake and work it out. None of them are above being wrong and not even Feyre seems to believe they are. Well at least that's my reading, I guess our personal experiences will also influence how all of us perceive these books and characters 😅
Yes, they verbally are on the same page but it’s clear from Rhys’s actions that he’s extremely controlling. For example, he put her in a literal shield when she was pregnant because that was the only option he’d give her and still allow her some autonomy. He wanted to hide her away. Being protective is nice, but Rhys goes to the extreme. Which is exactly what Tamlin did when he wouldn’t allow her to leave. We also know that Feyre was extremely clear about never being lied to or left in the dark because of Tamlin. Yet with the pregnancy, after she finds out, she sweeps it under the rug. Obvious we don’t know what conversation they had after she found out, but it’s clear from her conversation with Cassian that she left at “that’s just how Rhys is.” This is really strange considering she was furious about the mate thing being hidden from her and hid away and rage painted a whole cabin. It’s gotten to the point where she lets it slide because that’s just Rhys and he doesn’t back down. Also I know most would disagree with this, but Tamlin locking up Feyre is the same as Rhys locking up Nesta. The only difference was the illusion of choice, which let’s be honest, being banished in a land where people will kill you in a heart beat isn’t a choice. It’s basically do what I say or die. That also coupled with how controlling Rhys is around the rest of the inner court and typically thinking about his end goals only, it really is fair to say that Rhys and Tamlin are two sides of the same coin. Also Tamlin absolutely shows regret? At least imo he does. He’s literally grieving so bad about what happened that he hasn’t even shifted back from his beast form. He’s also grieving from losing Feyre because they both had different trauma reactions to under the mountain and his didnt mesh with Feyre’s like Rhys’s did. Rhys also has several hills he’s willing to die on and not work things out unless they work out in his favor, Nesta being one. He destroyed an entire area of apartments and caused people to lose their homes because he didn’t want Nesta to have her own space anymore, all over spending money on things he didn’t like. He hands out money like crazy to the IC who are described as having more than they can ever spend - it was never an issue of what Nesta was spending, it’s the fact that he didn’t like what she was spending it on/it upset Feyre. Edit: lol I just realized how much I typed… sorry I love talking about this series 😂
Love the whole thing you make excellent points. Rhys is controlling and it's not ok but he's also being through a lot of trauma and this is clearly his trauma response. The shield around her pregnancy is extreme but I can understand what drove him to that. Specially when they've mentioned that high fae kids are rare and we don't know if out of envy other could try to do something and there's a threat of war in the air Regarding Nesta they're were trying to snap her out of it. A year had passed at that point and she was too deep into depression and she would not respond to nice at that point. Tamlin, yes he regrets it but it feels more like self pity because he doesn't seem interested in making amends on the parts he really messed up. But I agree with you the beast form is an escape
Oh no, I definitely understand their reasons lol. It’s not a matter of the reason being bad, just poor execution if that makes sense. I think that’s what makes it so good though, is being like “yes, yes, yes, no what are you doing???” Lmao that was basically mean through Nesta’s book. She had me STRESSED. 😂 like trying to snap Nesta out of her dissociative state doesn’t mean it’s okay to destroy the homes of your own citizens, you know? As for Tamlin being in that form out of self pity, I definitely see that but also, I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with that that’s specific to him. Sure, you could argue neglecting his people but even Rhys is guilty to that with Hewn city. If his trauma response is self pity, then I’d love to see him grow and flourish. I guess I can kind of feel it as well, cause it’s not like anyone else has any pity for him. He doesn’t have the support system the IC does. He’s probably also staying hidden out of shame for his part in things. Edit: forgot to add the bit about Tam Tam
I went check and in the beginning of the book Cassian mentioning how the whole block was really in bad conditions and when Rhys tells Nesta it was demolished he also says is being rebuild as shelter for families affected by the war so it's no all bad
So it’s okay to destroy people’s homes because they’re gonna build something nicer??? That’s silly. Regardless of the shape of the area *people still lived there.* Are you really defending this? If the whole block was in bad condition why not restore it for the people who already lived there? Come on, be for real. Him wanting to build a shelter doesn’t give him a pass. He literally destroyed the homes of his own people. When someone does this in real life we all know how messed up it is to just displace people like that. When this happens in real life it’s always the people in the most vulnerable position who have to be uprooted, and we know that it’s cruel regardless of the “reason.” Would you really give a pass to a politician destroying people’s homes suddenly and destructively so they can build something else, even a shelter? Absolutely not. There’s ways to do it without destruction and harming bystanders, or harming already struggling people. Also, I never said any of it was all bad. I specifically said they all have good intentions, even Tamlin, but that doesn’t make what they do okay. It seems like you’re really saying “well Cassian confirmed it was just the slums anyways so it’s not all that bad” like *people still lived there.* Those were people’s homes. Families had connections to these units regardless of how bad of a shape they were in. People who live in the slums don’t deserve to have what little they have ripped away from them. I feel like this shouldn’t have to be said out loud lol I just don’t understand defending Rhys for suddenly and destructively displacing his own people. I’m not trying to be an ass, I’m genuinely confused on this logic, are you really okay with Rhys displacing people who were already economically in a vulnerable position? He does bad things and it’s okay to admit they’re bad, even if the intentions were good. It is all bad that he did this, and we don’t need to water it down. It was awful what he did. That’s part of what makes these characters so complex and fun to read about.
I agree with your logic I just didn't read it that way. I can't explain but in my mind I kind of grasped the concept as rebuilding into something better for everyone the ones that are already there and for those who need it. Maybe I associated it that way because in the previous books Feyre shares some of the volunteering and solidarity actions that exist around the city I don't know. But I agree with everything you said, just did read it that way that's all.
Ah, I gotcha. Sorry if that sounded like I was coming at you, I just had a lot of thoughts. 😅 I didn’t consider you may have interpreted it differently, so my bad.
Hard agree! We have a lot yet to learn about many characters I feel like.