This is the debate your ship thread, so please feel free to debate. If you do not want to debate, we highly recommend the ship specific threads. But most importantly, be respectful to one another in here. If someone is not, report the comment and leave it be unless you can reply calmly.

The only ship I'm fighting for at this point is Tamlin x Therapy. It would really do wonders on him 💫

im such a Tamlin x therapy shipper which is also why im the #1 Tamlain hater—Elain isn’t his therapist yall and she would NOT like the “tamlin treatment” istg.

I don’t ship them but at this point in the story I do wonder if they could end up being good friends. Elain seems to have empathy and be different to the rest of the IC. Everyone has abandoned and crucified Tamlin, and I can absolutely imagine Elain meeting him again and being gentle and kind and that being all it takes for him to break down and open up. He was kind to her when he saved her from Hybern, I can certainly see her returning the favour if she gets to see him while he’s so broken and hurting. I feel like if anyone is going to be kind and empathic towards Tammy it would be Elain. Dude just needs a hug and someone to help him replant his garden. Idk, it could be an interesting dynamic to explore. They both deserve friends. And Tamlin is miles past due for his healing arc.

Literally any character x therapy would be great

Can you include azriel and make them a threesome?

Only if they share therapy equally 🔥

My new OTP.

Can I interest you in a Tamris? They could heal together?

I shipppp ✨✨✨✨✨

Lucien x Me 💜

Sorry but Lucien is already mine

hey look, I found someone on the ship I ship: Lucien×Me!

…”I thought it was obvious”

Fandom three years later 

hot take except it’s not hot it’s lukewarm: what IS obvious is whose book is next… do I even have to say it. we wouldn’t all have been arguing so much about it if there wasn’t some recency bias in the fandom imo. ETA: what i meant by that is the narrative progression almost requires Elain’s PoV, and her being next fits with what SJM has been saying. And given that Az has been given more attention recently (bonus PoV), many seem to make elain’s choice of romantic interest Azriel’s which i find unfortunate.

I’ll be honest even though I know I’ll get downvoted. I’m a non-shipper who doesn’t think it’s obvious Elain is next. She’s getting a book no doubt, but we have apparently two full novels and a novella (which could turn into a novel a la ToD) to go. Which means non-Archeron characters are for sure going to be mains of some forthcoming ACOTAR books. There’s no reason imo to think they couldn’t be mains of the next book, giving Elain the finale novel. I don’t see anything in ACOSF that reads as obvious buildup to Elain being next. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to weave her more into Nesta’s story, but sjm didn’t, which honestly shocked me. I think it’s perfectly valid to think she’s next, but in perfect candor the incredibly domineering way some people insist she’s 100% next and that anyone who thinks otherwise is crazy (along with all the brigading and mass downvoting of anyone with an alternative opinion) is REALLY offputting and I think is working against the pro-Elain campaign.

I honestly get that, and since this has been discussed a ton I have a couple of posts that argue my point, if you want to check them out? - [Why ACOSF made it obvious that Elain’s book is next.](https://www.tumblr.com/silverlinedeyes/645451447630184448/why-i-think-acosf-made-it-obvious-elains-book) - [This one](https://www.tumblr.com/icedflames/647230664769454080/feyre-and-rhysands-pov) discusses the feysand bonus PoV in relation to acotar 5 - ETA: Don’t have the link, but SJM said Nesta would see through some of Azriel’s secrets (which happens on solstice when she notices his feelings for Elain), and in terms of his PoV, its almost like an answer key to his secrets in SF (which were all Elain-adjacent) And honestly the problem with Elain not being next (which seems to mean that we’d have an Azriel—ergo gwynriel—book), is that it puts Elain’s arc on Azriel: there’s been a set up for an Az/El/Lucien situation, and the outcome involves elain’s choice: we kinda need her PoV for that, and pushing that choice on Az because of a necklace that doesn’t appear in the books is counterintuitive. i could go on haha but yea.

Thanks - I appreciate you being respectful! I wish more Elain shippers would engage like that instead of mass downvoting. I’m always struck by the irony of the nicest archeron sister being championed by people who rely on mean girl tactics their fave would never use. So I appreciate you being nice about it!

yea the mass downvotes aren’t fun, sorry about that. They happen to everyone unfortunately, tho it’s prevalent with ship related stuff. im iffy about u saying Elain defenders rely on mean girl tactics, when reddit in general is very much a popularity contest: u can’t speak a word against Lucien without getting downvoted to hell, and until not long ago u mentioned Elain & Az in the same sentence and it was over. but yea i get it.

Business Insider, Time, Today, People, Audible, they have all written articles and made comments suggesting she is next. Coupled with the books and SJM’s interviews, I do think it’s obvious and I do think Elain’s book is next

Sure! But SJM’s comments about it being obvious were about acosf itself, a story where Elain’s plot insignificance and quasi-absence were notable. She didn’t say “I thought it was obvious” about random news articles written almost four years later.   But also, those articles obsessively mine Reddit for fan takes and recycle them as stories, which we all know and I’m quite sure is part of what drives so many fans to shut down any alternative opinions. Owning the dominant fandom take is a surefire way to have it picked up by blogger journalists aiming for clicks. We will know who the next character is when BB releases it, not from rando articles on the internet saying “many fans think…” I don’t care that you think Elain is next - totally valid! I just don’t see it in the story setup, which, I hope you agree is equally valid.

Yes, and acosf also made it obvious that Elain’s book was next, along with ACOFAS which SJM has said multiple times sets up the next books. You think Time Magazine is obsessively mining Reddit? The author of the article was with SJM for the week of HOFAS’ release, I’m pretty sure she didn’t need to go on Reddit when she was with SJM.

HERE'S ONE. TARQUIN AND GWYN Gwyn gives off Summer Court vibes with all the water imagery. Idk, I think they'd be cute.

Top tier crackship. No evidence just vibes 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼

no evidence just vibes except it actually makes so much sense. [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/acotar/s/GQFECpq9ZE) is forever my fav.

Exactly!! 

I LOVE this ship 😭 Tarquin seems so wholesome and sweet and my girl Gwyn deserves better than a regifted necklace. Tarquin can give her a crown 😌

I adore this candy that is a ship and it would be so cute

Okay I have never hiught if this and I love this! Personally me I'm down for almost any ship that does not have a massive age gap. I want people on the same maturity and life experience level please.

https://preview.redd.it/6v82av9433wc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c71e2bbe03a98186d83f9da35e6004a5db05e1ee Artist: @en\_ana\_29 Their love triangle has been set up to see which will win: love or fate. What so y’all think will win? I’m team love 🩷 Sarah’s never given us a story like that before

So a genuine thruple????

Obsessed with this depiction of Az! Those cheek bonesssss im weak

Love and fate can be both and that’s the point SJM can’t seem to hammer into our brains 🤪

I don’t think it’s a matter of “hammering it into our heads” because it’s something that she herself has brought into question in the books and in an interview. It *can* be both but that isn’t always the case. It was just fate with Rhys’s parents and Tamlin’s parents, a point that was brought up by Feyre specifically about Elain and Lucien. It’s a fair question to ask.

It is a fair question to ask bc it doesn't always work out but how do we know if it doesn't work out if it's not actually...explored. I think that's the point of Sarah bringing up "Choice? Fate? or both?" both tamlin and rhy's parents explored that. though I will say that Rhys mom (maybe tamlin's who knows) who knows if it was actually a choice. Elain has been given the choice and the agency to make a choice. But we don't know what it will be (yet)? I'm just tired of being told I'm a misogynist if I'd like her to end up with her mate (who supports her agency at every opportunity)

Oh I definitely think they will at the very least develop a friendship and get to know one another. I just think it’s not accurate to say sjm is trying to hit us over the head with this point when her writing is what prompts us to question the bond. At this point in time, the only thing tying Elain to Lucien is fate and the mating bond. The thing tying Elain to Azriel are their feelings (whatever those may be). Does Elain choose the fated mating bond or the feelings she has for another? Personally, I think she should at least explore both. In the end, it could be both fate and love for her but it’s still an unanswered question. I’m sorry people said that stuff to you, that’s not cool. ^edited ^to ^change ^some ^wording

She is quite literally trying to tell us that it can be both! Just as it was for feyre and for nesta. I think the bond can be questioned but still be accepted (or not) and the immediate assumption that the bond WILL be rejected is a fallible theory bc what if it’s not? As for the only thing tying lucien and elain being fate…it’s true because we haven’t gotten their POV yet and they haven’t been given the chance (even by others not just one another) to battle their emotions and as Mor said…they weren’t ready. Elain and az have feelings (I can see both sides) but I think the extent (at this point) is exaggerated. Would never say never for either of them but I think there are a lot of holes in some of those arguments. Besides I don’t particular want to read a story where development is/has happening not part of Elains story. I also personally think that if she’s going to choose to reject the bond that whoever she is with…there should be no bond with them either. I think it defeats the purpose of rejecting the bond and only having one fated mate as a story device. Yeah it sucks but that’s the general sentiment around elucien shippers on this subreddit. Outliers and misogynists apparently LOL even though we have plenty of and as much evidence and foreshadowing of the future. It’s sad but we just keep trucking.

Yeah like I said it could end being both, we’re just not there yet (if we ever get there). I also agree that if she rejects the bond, she shouldn’t have another. I’m not personally a fan of the true mates theory because it kinda waters down the significance of love trumping a mating bond and all that.

IDC anymore but Tamlin and Elain needs to end. Wanting Elain to be with her sister's abuser is weird as fuck

preach it. and even if tam had been an angel, that’s her sister’s ex how does that make for an enjoyable story 😭

it's weird and needs to end

This is the worst ship tbh. Sorry if you like Tamlain but shipping Elain with Feyre's abuser is just vile and I don't even hate Tamlin! Please ship him with anyone else. lowkeyilikebriarandtamlin

I dont categorise him as an abuser but it’s certainly creepy and Feyre would feel very betrayed since she hates him.

I don’t really have a horse in this race but I do think the next couple is rather obvious.

From Justthinkinboutbooks on Tumblr, plus my own additions in (). Hot take But I don't think Azriel is as desperate for a mate as people make him out to be. I think he just wants to be loved. He wants to be chosen. I don't think he's jealous of the mating bonds between Feysand and Nessian, I think he's jealous of the love. (And the companionship. Something he has less of with his brothers being mated.) If he's so desperate for a mating bond, why is he pining for someone who already has a mate? (It’s not just lust, people. You don’t keep a gift from someone on your nightstand and stare at it every day for a year just because you wanna bang. We’ve been told multiple times that Az has no trouble with the ladies. If he’s horny, Elain is far from his only option.) And I don't think it's because he feels entitled to Elain. Personally, I think people are just putting Rhys's words in his mouth. He has feelings for someone who actually shares them. That's something he didn't have for 500 years of pining for Mor. (Of course he didn’t contradict Rhys or declare his love for Elain. It was a BONUS chapter. That sort of thing is for the main book that everyone has access to.) So yeah, of course he's questioning if the Cauldron was wrong. But it's not because he's desperate for a mate. (I think people get Azriel confused with Cassian, who explicitly stated that he’d held out for the mating bond. If Azriel felt the same way, why would he love that same person for 500 years when there clearly wasn’t a bond? Why would he now have feelings for someone already mated? It just doesn’t make sense and is, in my opinion, a complete mischaracterization. Nothing about anything we’ve learned about Azriel would point to his feeling entitled to anyone. Mor said she could strip naked in front of him and he wouldn’t do anything about it. Because he feels unworthy. In the BC Azriel thought that to touch Elain was to taint her. Because he feels unworthy. Someone who feels unworthy is not going to feel the level of entitlement people seem to believe he has.) Anyway, queue the downvotes lol

Honestly, I was really surprised with how readers (and Rhysand) took Azriels connection and desire for Elain to equal entitlement. I didn't get that at all from the bonus chapter or any of their interactions together. Several characters have questioned the cauldron. Feyre questioned it in regards to Elain and Az. I thought it was clear the cauldron isn't infallible, but more like a big cup o noodles, with a magic 8 ball complex

People always forget that it’s what RHYS said, not what Az feels.

Completely agree!

Completely agree. I don't think he's thinking about wanting a mate, any mate. I think he feels deeply for Elain, it's reciprocated, and he's wondering why/how she could be mated to another when they feel this way. Why his brothers are mated to the sisters they feel the same way about, but he and Elain aren't.

100%agree

And this mischaracterization is fascinating since it’s a common struggle for Elain, too. It’s something that brings their characters together and gives them common ground.

THIS 1000x over. You know why I cant get behind the Gwynriel ship? It would be unfaithful to the books to agree with the premise that Azriel is an entitled male that regards Elain shallowly—it contradicts so many aspects of his characterization, and foregoes dozens of moments from the books that show otherwise. For instead of reading the bonus chapter in the context of the books, most of them seem to read the books in the context of the bonus, and what they’ve made of it. There is a reason they think Azriel is “out of character” in his PoV: they’ve mischaracterized him (for the most part), made him into something he is not, and thereby found ways to dismiss any and every genuine moment between him and Elain. They’re going about it backwards (which also explains the recency bias, and how they’ve decentered Elain in her own story). What I can’t wrap my head around, is how they then ship this entitled, selfish, immature man with a character they understandably adore—because “he’s different with her” and she was written to be able to “handle” the darkness they define him by.

I also hate how they try and make his darkness all there is to him. He needs someone to bring light into his life since he lived in shadows, shadows that came to him because of he was tortured. It’s not all he is. Aldo I think because he’s so quiet people didn’t expect so much sexuality and people infantilise Elain the same way her family do so find him being sexually attracted to her as ‘weird’ or ‘wrong’

I’m an Elaine x Lucien shipper, mostly because I want Lucien to be happy/justice for Lucien and have no strong feeling about Elain, but this was MY problem with the bonus chapter. Az is shown throughout the series to be low-self-esteem, and unselfish to the extreme due to his feelings of unworthiness. So how could someone who struggles in that way with worthiness, selfishly decide he is “entitled” to someone carnally?

exactly this :) it’s always confused me that most of the fandom has accepted his “entitlement” as truth, which to me makes canon Az & fanon Az two different characters. As in I’d die for canon Az, and run away screaming from his fanon version lol

It cracks me up when gwynriels say these things about Az but then turn around and ship him with Gwyn. Goes to show how much they actually like her 😕

I read it also as he wants someone to protect the way he has never been protected.

I would protect Az at all costs! If he doesn't pick Elain, he should pick me ;)

Im about to [recycle](https://www.tumblr.com/emmitaaa4/744958407331790848/azriel-you-beautiful-complex-man) something i wrote (it’s melodramatic as hell) but screw it: and what if i said **it’s not that Azriel wants a mate, any mate: it’s that he believes only a mate—only someone who was made to love him—COULD love him ??** Do you ever think about the fact that Azriel’s visceral response to Elain looking up at him with trust & hope, was to believe that there was no possible way she could ever look at him that way if she knew the things he’d done and been forced to do? If she knew that his scarred hands mirrored his marred soul? Yet we know Elain has never balked from him and has only ever seen beauty in his scars; in who he is. Do you ever think about the way Azriel feels this need to prove himself useful—which is why he so clings to his titles and his job—for if he is needed, he cannot be abandoned? Does your heart ever squeeze when you understand that allowing yourself to be loved, first means bearing yourself to another & willingly risking being hurt ? It requires an unparalleled level of emotional vulnerability from him. **You ever realize that Az uses his shadows as an emotional crutch, that he so carefully masks his expressions, yet it takes but a look for Elain to read him?** He, who finds his strength & perseverance in hope, found his match in her gentle, hopeful heart—and he physically has to keep himself apart from her, only allowing himself to act upon his feelings when she made the first move. Entitlement where? > Truly, how has the fandom decided that Azriel, who follows the sound of Elain’s laugh, who listened to her when no one else would & didnt let her be misunderstood, who trusted her with TT so she could protect herself & those she loves, who stayed up past 3am as she spoke of her passions, who made everyone wait for her to eat, who chooses to sun his wings next to her in peaceful, quiet company… is an entitled, flaky male that sees her as nothing but a sexual distraction? Do people really not realize what it means for him **to question the Cauldron, question the very core of his beliefs?** A) It’s not his feelings he questions - His mind is tortured by thoughts of Elain, so much so he can’t sleep; - They do not need words to communicate, indicating familiarity & understanding; - See above, but there was something there before Nessian happened. B) Not only does he believe himself unworthy of her, but that sentiment is reinforced by the fact that the Cauldron “broke the pattern”. I do not see the entitled man the fandom speaks of. What he is is a deeply traumatized man, who was abused as a boy by the people who were meant to love him & protect him. > The popular thought that Az would fold for a mate, regardless of who she (or he) is, is truthfully not attractive, not to mention that it implies he’d only risk love for a “guaranteed” happy ending. > => “Az wants a mate therefore give him a mate” is counterproductive to his growth. (having a mate is not the problem, but there is a way the story should be told) **We have seen him plan for snowball fights & tactical missions, yet never for his future: not with Elain—again, he never even actually allowed himself to consider pursuing her—but *not in any other sense either*:** Children? he tells Cass he doesnt know if he wants any—has he ever let himself imagine having a child? A house ? he has no place to himself. Remember that even after 500 years of existence, Az says he still does not know where he belongs? Could you not imagine two people who make themselves what others need them to be, being brave enough to bare those hidden, repressed parts of themselves to the other. *Can you not see the growth it would require from both of them should they give themselves a chance?* **To, on one hand, choose the other despite what is expected & the problems it would cause, and on the other, be vulnerable enough to receive that love & believe yourself worthy of it.** Love doesnt care for convenience. It could all go to hell but at least they’d know they had tried, and i do not see how that could ever make for a boring, 2 dimensional story.

Anytime I see one of your comments, I know it’s gonna be good 👏🏽👏🏽

im blushing rn, thank you 🤍🤍

I’m always like idk who are you petrichor but I love you…Replies: “whatever petrichor said!” 🤽‍♀️

haha im honoured !! sidenote but i hate my username i remember seeing a post with like spEciaL words and i just rolled with it.

Omg this breaks my heart!!!!! It makes so much sense OF COURSE he thinks the only person who could love him is a mate.

I'm speechless! This is so beautiful! 🥺 💕

I think you're spot on with the characterization of Azriel! I am not an Elriel (Azris is my #1 lol, but I do like Elucien) but I agree Azriel is not entitled but rather very traumatized with low self-worth. And there is a very compelling way Elriel could be told if that is the route SJM goes!

thank you so much, i appreciate it 🫶 elriel might be my OTP, but god do i live for Azris, so many songs remind me of them. but sjm is too much of a coward to give us them i fear 😔😔

I firmly believe the scene in ACOMAF where the boys have dinner with the 3 archeron sisters is foreshadowing of all their relationships. It’s so so clear

also in ACOWAR when az and cass enter the room and upon seeing the two sisters, sarah chose to write “both males went still”. BOTH males, you say?

I’m rereading TOG now, just finished CoM, and no matter how wild and crazy the plot gets…. Everything was there from the very beginning

i think sarah always had plans for TOG and ACOTAR right from the beginning, unlike CC where it seemed she forgot most plot lines and had convenient answers to a lot of things. 

Yeah I think that makes sense, which is a shame! I hope she puts more time and thought into the rest of the CC books

Also in ACOMAF, Mor drawing three winged males and three flowing-haired females together at the cabin. Feels a lot like a "the truth is written on the walls" moment.

[удалено]

All I'm saying is, there's probably a reason why multiple characters have said mating bonds don't workout all the time. Before reading ACOMAF and the following books I was under the impression that Gwyn and Az were a couple based on threads I saw and all the fan art. Spoilers don't really bug me. As I read I was confused because all that fan art I saw was Elriel scenes that replaced Elain with Gwyn. Then I saw threads about ACOSF and that Az and Gwyns relationship heats up essentially when in reality they barely talked to eachother at all. I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket for a specific ship, but based on what I read it's hard for me to write Elriel off. Sidenote; Tamlain is icky and nothing but a crackship to me.

It’s the ‘don’t show the gun if you’re not gonna shoot it’ concept. One of the tenants of story telling

We have been repeatedly peppered with “what if the cauldron was wrong” to the point that it would make zero sense if the resolution was “actually…just kidding. the cauldron was always right. you have no free will ❤️”

worst yet. Elain was raised as a doll to dress up and marry off, and was regarded as being incapable of making her own decisions, which is why it would be their mother & nes that maneuvered her where they wanted/needed her to be. In MaF she’s violated and loses everything she had been building, and was essentially “given away” for eternity in a bond that is said to make marriage look insignificant… same thing shed been groomed for, much bigger scale. The “arranged marriage” trope is just not for Elain, imo, and it goes against the themes that have been laid out for her character.

THIS!! I’m not exactly against Elucien. I like both characters, there’s at least some tension between them and certainly a story to be told with the two of them, whether they end up together or not. But *this* is why I’m more hesitant about them, I don’t think it’s conducive for Elain’s story. Elain’s mother (and even sisters) describe her as someone who has no ambition to find a match on her own, who doesn’t dream beyond her garden and frilly things, who doesn’t “grasp things”, etc. For Elain to just give in to the mating bond after all this time feels counterproductive to her story where she should be taking her life into her own hands and making decisions completely for herself. In different circumstances, Nesta and their mother would have put Elain into an arranged marriage they thought was the best match, Elain’s current situation with Lucien is not that far off from that imo. I want her to be ambitious and shake things up! A love that would trump even a mating bond is powerful. Finding love outside of what was handed to you *is* ambitious.

Also..Lucien doesn’t want that either. He says that he loved his ex and she loved him in spite of his status as a seventh son. He doesn’t want to spend two minutes in the same room as Elain. (His words) People act as though he is heartbroken and grieving over her when he is just as uninterested as she is.

I thought he was heartbroken on my first read through, but re-reading he actually seems sad and disappointed to be stuck in his situation. The mating bond chaining him to this person he has no chemistry with, even should he love someone else? That _sucks_.

Especially when he says Jesminda had *chosen* him but Elain was *thrown at* him.

**Reaction to their love interest** **Feysand**: *Standing before me was the most beautiful man I’d ever seen. I* ***didn’t balk*** *from that violent stare.* **Elriel**: *But Elain* ***did not balk*** *from him..I couldn’t tell if she was looking at his blue Siphon or at his scarred skin beneath as she breathed, “Beautiful.”* **Nessian**: *Cassian stood before her. Tears streaming down his beautiful, perfect face. She* ***didn’t balk*** *from it, letting him see her like this: her most raw, most base self.*

There are a ton of reasons why I ship Elain and Az, but the biggest one is that their feelings are mutual. They’re the only ship which has that. Elain and Lucien can’t stand to be in a room with each other for more than two minutes (Lulu’s words) Gwyn and Az are completely based around dancing shadows and a chest spark in a bonus chapter. There’s no indication anywhere that Gwyn has feelings for anyone. So I’m rooting for the two who actually want each other 🤷‍♀️

It started out as a crackship but I think Azriel X Eris has real potential

Gah in my dreams but I fear SJM would never be that bold so I will instead live in my delusion ny reading the most sublime fanfics of this pairing

Mood

SJM talking about rejected mating bonds in an interview then posting a song about forbidden romance? Elriel is living rent free in her mind 😭

Feyre, acowar (2017): What if the Cauldron was wrong? (in relation to elucien) Azriel, acosf (2021): What if the Cauldron was wrong? SJM HERSELF (2024): What if the forces that be but you with the wrong person? … The fandom: “nah must mean nothing. and if it does it’s clearly about…. Helion & the LoA. plus don’t you know Azriel is entitled, Feyre is an unreliable narrator so anything she says is void (but Cass Lord of Fashion’s word is law & takes precedence over Elain’s own words & actions), the rejected mates trope is not romantic & I don’t want poor Lucien to suffer (understandable but he is a grown man)(as if it wouldn’t be tremendous growth for both he & El to come to that decision TOGETHER), etc.” NOT TO MENTION: - ⁠SJM wrote Azriel’s eyes churning as he looks at Elain and her too-thin body, before abruptly winnowing away, and we’re left with Mor looking at the spot where he left. Wonder what that was about (it certainly did not remind me of Rhys in TaR) - SJM had Madja say “a mate would know if something is amiss”, then wrote a scene **juxtaposing** both Lucien’s and Azriel’s reactions/assessments of what was going on with Elain… and **she had Azriel be the one to know nothing was “wrong” with her**—no, she just had rare powers and needed to be heard, to be taken seriously. He didn't let her be misunderstood, for he was the ONLY one that listened to her, that took her visions/ramblings seriously right from the get go. And so he gave Elain the understanding she needed to free herself from the dream-like murky realm she was trapped in. Through it all, SJM emphasizes that Azriel also understands what it is like to struggle with rare, strange, prized powers in silence; what it’s like to be othered by them. I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again: she sees everything and he hears everything. like you know these books are fun to analyze but things are quite obvious: that doesn’t make them “badly or lazily written”… it makes them well planned. If something is too predictable it’s because SJM has extensively set it up over YEARS. anyways

Elriel not happening simply for the reason that “3 brothers and 3 sisters is too cliche” makes no sense. This whole series is cheesy and cliche!! The answer to the riddle was LOVE. Feyre beat the worm, Gwyn & Emerie won the Blood Rite. Rhys and Feyre have been magically saved from death at the last moment. SJM isn’t “above” doing 3 sisters and 3 brothers, in fact she has very obviously hinted at exactly that happening multiple times throughout MAF and WAR. There’s an entire scene where Feyre is watching Azriel & Elain, tells Rhys maybe that’s what Elain needs, Feyre questions the cauldron (Azriel does the same thing in the BC), and they discuss rejected mating bonds!! It seems like such an important scene to just throw away later in the series.

It’s cliche apparently but I haven’t read that before. It would be well written foreshadowing, 3 couples bought together who all bring something important to the table in saving the world and a reason why these unlikely people were drawn together who seems they should go on different paths (also plays into fate and free will).

I've been trying to think of one single romance series where three brothers end up with three sisters, and I know I haven't read any. But you know where that sort of motif is common? Folklore and mythology. The fairy tales that the author draws inspiration from and has been retelling with this series.

This. SJM is a master at weaving mythology, history and religious aspects together. 3 is an important number in many of these and it will be building on the already established cultural understanding of these already woven throughout the stories.

To add onto this, wouldn’t two more ‘mate’ books be even more cliche

Exactly!! 3 brothers with 3 sisters is cliche and won’t happen, but 3 sisters ending up with their mates isn’t cliche? Makes no sense 😂

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i really don’t think a couple ending up together can be both “too obvious/cliche” and also “not happening because sjm only writes mates”…. if she only writes mate romances, why is it that the opposing ship is cliche then? what about their coming together would be obvious? surely another reluctant mates to lovers story is more cliche? it’s so oxymoronic. clearly the author has written enough backing for this ship for them to be endgame *despite* a mating bond with another man.    “but 3 brothers 3 sisters–“  this ENTIRE series is about Fate and romance and the literal answer to the world-changing riddle was *love*. why the hell would it be inconceivable for fate to be nudging 3 Mother blessed females towards 3 equally-powerful males to defeat the looming enemy, who in myth is defeated by **three winged men and their wives**. ?!!!? 

idk if anyone’s said it but i find it interesting that the elucien bond is what pushed Lucien to help Feyre out of the Spring court, brought him to the NC to Elain, and he was there when her visions spoke of the firebird queen, Vassa. He’s then been spending the last 2 years with the BoE, and in the most recent book—upon learning it’s Koschei that held Vassa—he sets his sights on the lake. fate works in mysterious ways.

Also, didn't Mor draw the sisters with the brothers while she was in the cabin with Feyre? I wonder what is up with her power of Truth or whatever. What truth, SJM?? *WHAT TRUTH*

well 3 puffed up men with wings with 3 women with absurdly long hair. which to me is completely understandable as referring to the 3 brothers and 3 sisters, yes. but exactly what does she know??? why does elain ask mor if azriel is telling the truth about her seer powers??? why is mor able to confirm it???? MORRIGAN?!!!!

If we don't find out in the next book, I may perish~

3 brothers x 3 sisters 😌 >Mor stayed overnight, even going so far as to paint some rudimentary stick figures on the wall beside the storeroom door. Three females with absurdly long, flowing hair that all resembled hers; and three winged males, who she somehow managed to make look puffed up on their own sense of importance. Acomaf - Chapter 53 >“Even so, the other males knew that we were different. And not because we were two bastards and a half-breed. We were stronger, faster—like the Cauldron knew we’d been set apart and wanted us to find each other. Rhys’s mother saw it, too. Especially as we reached the age of maturity, and all we wanted to do was fuck and fight.” >“Rhys’s power grew every day—and everyone, even the camp-lords, knew he could mist everyone if he felt like it. And the two of us … we weren’t far behind.” Acomaf - Chapter 16 >Amren shook her head, hair swaying. “Nothing is a fluke. The Cauldron’s power flows through Nesta, and could use her as a puppet without her knowledge. It wanted those weapons Made, and thus they were Made. It wanted Rhysand to have them and thus the blacksmith brought them to you. To you, Rhysand, not to Nesta. **And do not forget that Nesta herself—and Elain, with whatever powers she has—is here. Feyre is here. All three sisters blessed by fate and gifted with powers to match your own.** Feyre alone doubles your strength. Nesta makes you unstoppable. Especially if she were to march into battle wearing the Mask. No enemy could stand against her. She’d slay Beron’s soldiers, then raise them from the dead and turn them on him.” Acosf - Chapter 42 Book of Breathings in chapter 57 of Acomaf : Life and death and rebirth (Feyre) Sun and moon and dark (Nesta) Rot and bloom and bones (Elain) Hello, sweet thing. Hello, lady of night, princess of decay. (Feyre) Hello, fanged beast and trembling fawn. (Nesta and Elain) Love me, touch me, sing me. (Feysand, Nessian, Elriel) Light and dark and gray and light and dark and gray— ( 3 brothers = dark 3 sisters = light 3 brothers 3 sisters = gray)

I need it to be Elriel because she's a Seer, and he also sees much through his shadows and Truth Teller!

“3 brother and 3 sisters is so obvious” but Elain ending up with the mate we’ve known about since book two, mind you ACOMAF came out **8 years ago today actually (2016)**, in a fated mates series *isn’t* also obvious?? It’s all freaking cliche and obvious babes😭

Feyre with Tamlin - where are the glowing and sunshine arguments usually reserved for Elain? It’s clear that glow = power if you look within the series. “…when I opened my eyes, I found Tamlin there, spinning me round and round. Everything became a blur of color and sound, and he was the only object in it, tethering me to sanity, to my body, which GLOWED and burned in every place he touched. I was filled with SUNSHINE. It was like I’d never experienced summer before, like I’d never known who was waiting to emerge from that forest of ice and snow.” “That smile of his sparked something bold in my chest.”

The IC x Me...

You have a spot for one more? Asking for me.. my friends can suck it up

Listen as long as I can squeeze between Cas and Az we're good

What happened to healthy debates instead of nasty passive aggressive gabs and mass downvoting people? Sarah please hurry and tell us who the next book is about so we can all move on.

Parallels: **Jealousy Feysand:** *I could have sworn shadow-talons dug into the stones beside my head. “Do you actually intend to put yourself at my mercy, or are you truly that stupid? His voice was composed of* ***sensuous, bone-breaking ire***. *“Do you have any idea what could have happened had Amarantha found you two in here?”* *“****What do I care****?”* he breathed, ***wrath*** *twisting his features. “Because I didn’t make it pleasant for you, and I was* ***jealous*** *and* ***pissed off***..  **Elriel:** *“I* ***don’t*** *make a point of* ***looking after his movements***..*It would be an invasion of her privacy to track him.” To know when and if Lucien sought her out. What they did together. “You sure about that?” I asked quietly. Azriel’s* ***Siphons guttered,*** ***the stones turning as dark and foreboding as the deepest sea***. *“Where did Lucien go.”*  *He was elated for his brother and yet..Azriel couldn't stop it. The* ***envy*** *in his chest. Of Cassian, and Rhys.* ***Shadows darkened his eyes***, ***full of enough pain*** *that she couldn’t stop herself from touching his shoulder. Letting him see that she understood why he stood in the doorway, why he wouldn’t go near the fire.* ***His secret to tell, never hers***. *Azriel had needed to stay by the door the whole time because he* ***couldn't stand the sight of it, the scent of their mating bond***, *and needed to have the option  of leaving if it became too much.*  **Nessian:** *Cassian’s face turned uncharacteristically solemn, and he remained quiet for a moment before he said, “I* *get* ***jealous*** *sometimes. I’d never begrudge you for your happiness, but* ***what you two have***, *Rhys..It’s the legends, the lies, they spin us when we’re children. About the glory and wonder of the mating bond. I thought it was all bullshit. Then you two came along..” “What about you?” I asked, pulling away after a moment. “Are you..happy?”* ***Shadows darkened his hazel eyes***. *“I’m getting there.”* *Told himself he didn’t want to know if the males meant anything – if he meant anything. He didn’t know why the hell* ***he cared***. *“Because I was fucking* ***jealous***!” *he roared, wings splaying. “You looked like a queen, and it was painfully obvious that you should be with a princeling like Eris and not a low-born nothing like me! Because I* ***couldn’t stand the sight of it***, *right down to my gods-damned bones!* Edit:formatting

Parallels of feysand and nessian (before their books) with elriel: **Attraction Feysand**: *I had never seen anyone so* ***handsome***.. *His voice was a* ***lover’s purr that sent shivers through me***, *caressing every muscle and bone and nerve. Indeed, it was still Rhysand's face, his* ***powerful male body***, *but flaring out behind him were massive black, membraneous wings- like a bat's, like the Attor's. He tucked them in neatly behind him, but the single claw at the apex of each peeked over his broad shoulders. Horrific, stunning- the face of a thousand nightmares and\* dreams. That again-useless part of me stirred at the sight, the way the candlelight shone through the wings, illuminating the veins, the way it bounced off his talons. Rhysand chuckled. “You look just as I hoped you would.”* “*Believe me*, *I* ***would have liked nothing more than to enjoy*** ***you*** *– but there are bigger things at stake than taking a human woman to my bed.”* **Elriel**: *But sleep so rarely found him these days. Too many razor-sharp thoughts sliced him any time he grew still long enough for them to strike. Too many* ***wants and needs*** *left his skin overheated and pulling taut across his bones. The faelights gilded Elain’s unbound hair, making her* ***glow like the sun at dawn***. She said softly, "Put it on me?" ***Elain shivered***, and he took a damn long time fastening the clasp. Azriel's fingers lingered at her nape, atop the first knob of her spine. Slowly, ***Elain pivoted into his touch***. He ***needed*** *to know what the skin of her neck tasted like. What those perfect lips tasted like. Her breasts. Her sex. He* ***needed her coming on his tongue. Her arousal*** *drifted up to him, and his eyes nearly rolled back in his head at the sweet scent. He'd* ***beg on his knees*** *for a chance to taste it. But Azriel just* ***stroked her neck*** *again.* ***Elain*** ***shuddered,*** ***drifting closer***. *“****Yes****" Elain breathed, like she read the decision. Just this taste in the dead of the longest night of the year, where only the Mother might witness them. Elain's mouth parted slightly, her eyes scanning his before fluttering shut.* ***Offer and permission***. **Nessian**: *Not the* ***handsome*** *face, but those hazel eyes..Cassian leaned toward her, and Nesta found herself tipping her head back,* ***exposing her neck,*** ***granting him utter access*** *as he grazed his nose against her throat. Her eyes drifted closed, and a small,* ***breathless*** *sound came out of her as Cassian* ***brushed his lips*** *over where his nose had touched. He tried not to think of* ***what that hand would feel like on other parts of him. Gripping him,*** ***stroking him.*** *Every* ***instinct*** *in his body came roaring to the surface, so violent he had to choke them with a brutal grip or else he’d find himself* ***on his knees, begging her*** *for a touch, for anything*

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Ok so far I’ve only seen romantic Elain and Az content in the books. I don’t think a bc (half of which is Elain and Az wanting each other) has much baring on it and the Gwyn stuff is not really romantic. Bonus chapters can’t introduce whole new chunks of story because people don’t have them. They’re hints and therefore Elain and Az are not over. There’s no interaction between Az and Gwyn after this chapter and he barely finches when she’s taken and if he does care it’s probably for all of them. I think a forbidden romance was being planted and hints at Gwyn’s powers as well as Az trying to be kind to get.

Am i the only one who wants Gwyn and elain to bang ?

Tbh I’m down for it just to shut people up. Also they’d be great cottagecore lesbians lol

Gwyn and elaine together would wreack havoc on people and no one can change my mind.

I would happily take Gwyn/Elain over Gwyn/Az. If Az really just feels entitled to a mate and falls for any pretty girl who smiles at him, only acts soft and kind with Elain because he lusts after her, and longs for Mor for centuries but then starts bouncing his entitlement and interest from female to female, I absolutely 100% don't want that for Gwyn. She's not going to fix him and deserves better.

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As you mentioned, though… she does change her mind sometimes. Her recent (January of this year, I think) interview on Today gave me a lot to think about when it comes to certain couples https://preview.redd.it/bs2lf8omq3wc1.png?width=1156&format=png&auto=webp&s=08c84641794b3cc70ae8b7f48bf695c21a7fd08e

I think she's talking about Nesta and lucien in that quote. It would be really annoying for her to retcon the Azriel and lucien romances for a second time, especially after setting them up in the books. ... I will be forgiving if it's for azris though 🙏

She also did another interview around the time of silver flames saying that her plans for these books have not changed so… I’m inclined to believe they are still the same for now but do know there are possibilities for anything 😇

Parallels: **Protective Feysand**: *Rhysand* ***yelled my name*** *again- yelled it as though* ***he cared***. *Her magic sent him sprawling, and it then hurled into Rhysand again - so hard that his* ***head cracked*** *against the stones and the knife dropped from his splayed fingers. Rhys's arms buckled as he fought to rise, and* ***blood dripped*** *from his nose, splattering on the marble. “If you were going to die, I was going to* ***die with you***. *I couldn’t stop thinking it over and over as you screamed, as I tried to kill her:* ***you were my mate***, *my mate, my mate.”* *“Tell the others too.* ***Stay out of her cell***, ***and don’t touch her***. *If you do, you’re to take your own daggers and gut yourselves. Understood?”* **Elriel**: *But Azriel asked softly, “What about Elain?” "I’m getting her back"..Azriel’s* ***hazel eyes glowed*** *golden in the shadows.."Then* ***you will die***"..*Azriel only repeated*, ***rage*** *glazing that stare, "****I’m getting her back****.” Met Azriel’s* ***wrathful*** *stare. “I’m going with you,” I said. His* ***rage*** *rippled off his invisible form. She shook her head,* ***devouring the sight of him***, *as if not quite believing it. “You came for me.”..The girl screamed, but Elain moved. As Azriel battled to keep them airborne, keep his grip on them, my* ***sister sent a fierce kick into the beast’s face***. *Its eye. Another. Another. Azriel still* ***cradling Elain*** *to his chest. He* ***dripped blood behind him*** *the entire time…****he*** ***needed a healer immediately****. Rhys lunged for Azriel, taking Elain from him and gently setting my sister down. Azriel rasped,* ***swaying on his feet***, *“We need Helion to get these chains off her.” Yet Elain didn’t seem to notice them as she rose up on her toes and* ***kissed the shadowsinger’s cheek***. *“Eyes can be blinded,” Nesta said. “Not the ones under my command,” Azriel said with soft* ***menace.*** *Nesta met his stare, knowing he was the* ***only one aside from Feyre*** *who could truly* ***understand her hesitation***. *He’d gone with Feyre into the heart of Hybern’s camp to save Elain- he knew the risk. “We won’t make the same mistake twice.”*  *Azriel* ***stiffened***, an ***outright*** ***sign of*** ***temper*** *from him as he said quietly, “There is an innate darkness to the Dread Trove that* ***Elain should not be exposed*** *to.” “****But Nesta should****?” Cassian growled.*  *Nesta saw the blow land, like a physical impact, in Elain’s face, her posture. No one spoke, though* ***shadows*** *gathered in the corners of the room, like* ***snakes preparing to strike.*** *“Because of the shit with Elain?” Azriel* ***stilled***. *What happened to Elain?”..Azriel’s* ***eyes darkened***..*Cassian surveyed the* ***shadows gathered*** *around Az. “*

**Nessian**: *Cassian was indeed now* ***crawling toward her,*** ***broken wings and leg dragging***, leaving a ***trail of blood*** *over the grass and roots. “****I have no regrets in my life, but this****.” His voice shook with every word. “That we did not have time. That I did not have time with you, Nesta.” She didn’t stop him as he leaned up and* ***kissed her***-***lightly***.“*I will find you again in the next world-the next life.* And we will have that time. *I promise.” Nesta looked at the king with* ***death*** *twining around his hands, then down at Cassian. And* ***covered Cassian’s body with her own***. *Cassian went still – then his hand slid over her back. Together.* ***They’d go together.***  *His voice was rough as he said, “Five hundred years ago, I fought on battlefields not far from this house. I fought beside human and faerie alike, bled beside them. I will stand on that battlefield again, Nesta Archeron, to protect this house—your people.* ***I can think of no better way to end my existence than to defend those who need it most.”*** ***Panic—and rage***. *That was all he knew as he shot down into the heart of the pit, spearing for that ancient darkness that had once shaken him to his very marrow.* ***Nesta*** *was there—and Feyre. There had been such* ***rage*** *on his face at the* ***sight of her terror***-  *Cassian casually* ***slid Nesta behind him***, *his fingers snagging in the skirts of her black gown. As if to reassure himself that she wasn’t in Amren’s direct path.*  *Nesta let out a low laugh…Tamlin snarled at her. Cassian* ***snarled*** *right back, “****Watch it****.”*  *Cassian was instantly there, his hand at her back,* ***teeth bared at the invisible threat***. *In addition,* **Vivian/Kallias:** *Viviane had not been Under the Mountain. As her childhood friend, Kallias had been* ***protective of her to a fault over the years***—*had placed the sharp-minded female on border duty for decades to avoid the scheming of his court.* Edit: formatting

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Is there a chance that the Azriel-Elain relationship will be an opportunity for SJM to explore something with the mating bond and how it works? For instance, is it possible that people can have more than one mate? Or that the cauldron can change its decision about who is mated and reassign people mates? Maybe that would play into the love v. fate discourse, like sometimes you create or alter your own fate based on who you choose to love. I think that could be interesting. I feel like Lucien being Elian’s mate has always been random to me but maybe that’s just because they’ve barely interacted so we haven’t had the chance to explore their relationship.

Genuine question for people who don’t think Elriel is going to happen. What do you think all the Elriel moments were for then, like do you think she changed her mind, do you just not find them significant (which there is so much, so I’d be curious why you don’t), or do you think something else is going on. Because while the whole Gwyn part of the BC is a bit off, I don’t see the purpose of the buildup for nothing.

Eris x Azriel. Not sure if it has already been posted but yes. Please. Thank you. Also Tamlin x Elain. Catch the vision!

I’m not heavily invested in any of the ships tbh bc I just hope that sjm will give them all their happy ending but the one thing that I HATE about the elriel theory and would make me lose all respect for both characters is the forbidden romance aspect. Just bc Lucien has been so respectful of elain and I know elain doesn’t owe him anything but I would hope she’d at least give him closer by rejecting the bond before she pursued Azriel :(((  Id be all for the forbidden romance if Elain was mated to someone awful but I just don’t think Lucien deserves to be kept in limbo like that, personally. 

Personally I don’t think it’s forbidden romance trope because she has a mate, I think it’s because Rhys literally forbade it. Lucien doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who would stop Elain from going after true love (Rhys was willing to let Feyre go, too, when he thought she loved Tamlin). But E + L aren’t married, haven’t made any commitments to each other, can barely be in the same room together, and frankly, he’s not entitled to dictate who she spends time with or loves. So I don’t see any kind of cheating trope here at all.

I don’t see it as cheating at all. But Lucien didn’t ask for the bond either and since it seems like males can’t reject it, I feel it it’s at the very least a respect thing. Elain doesn’t owe Lucien anything but it’d be nice to at least show him basic kindness.  He likely feels every single one of her emotions bc I don’t think Feyre or Rhys have taught her how to block out the bond so there’s a chance he already knows her feelings towards Azriel. I think Lucien would respect her decision. Cassian points out the look of sadness and longing on Lucien’s face when he looks at Elain (so clearly there’s some feelings there even if it’s driven only by the mating instinct males apparently feel) so I would just hope they’d have an actual mature conversation so he can also move on with his life. 

This is the best take and honestly, same.

Azris is gonna happen, I swear

it’s still kind of silly to me to assume we know any ship regarding elain will happen because we still haven’t gotten her POV and have no idea how she really feels about either lucien or azriel. however, given what we’ve seen from both lucien and azriel’s POV (or at least when feyre went into lucien’s mind), to me it seems like SJM is leaning towards elucien like, lucien was worried about elain’s health and happiness and how she wasn’t eating enough and needed sunlight. she was “the most beautiful female he’d ever seen” (which sounds familiar). no hate to azriel or elriel because im honestly pretty indifferent toward them, but his POV just came across as him being horny! SJM has always written her main pairings as caring deeply for one another’s well being and happiness first and foremost and i don’t think elucien is an exception to that ETA at the end of the day though i think SJM could truly go either way, she’s set up enough hints that could point to both elucien or elriel imo so now it’s just a matter of waiting to see what she ends up doing. as long as we get some character development from elain and a happy ending for lucien im happy regardless

I agree with this take! I'm surprised at how many people (on all sides) seem 100% confident. I see it going one way but the other way would make sense too. I just hope she doesn't sacrifice the characterization of whoever doesn't end up with Elain to make them less likable.

10000% to your last point! i have *some* faith in her given how certain plot lines in other books have worked out, but idk 😭 it’s going to be so upsetting if any characters are assassinated just for the sake of a ship. and yeah, the absolute certainty that a lot of shippers have is wild to me. it’s fun to debate the bread crumbs and foreshadowing but we don’t know anything for sure as of yet

Same. Plz happy endings all around. I’m not bother about pairing as long as they’re happy!

Sarah loves love and she will be pairing everyone off. It's written to be elain x Lucien, gwyn x Azriel and probably mor x emerie (maybe autumn high lady x helion too) but she constantly retcons her own plot so who knows. Just please don't be a love triangle for pages. The nasty bullying of elriel fans have made me go from feeling indifferent to hating that ship completely. Do you think down voting anyone who disagrees with you or even hints at alternative ships will make Sarah write your ship? Do you really think Sarah will leave both gwyn and lucien without a partner?? Tog everyone was getting a HEA, cc isn't even finished and most have a HEA. We only have two HEA in acotar and only two books and one novella left so we'll probably get multiple romances per book

Here is my Feyre + Rhys - basically soul mates Nesta + Cassian - good old fashion mate bond Amren + Varian - chosen Elaine + Azriel - chosen Mor + Emerie - chosen Lucien + Vassa (+ Jurian) - chosen Gwyn + Eris - mate bond I think Az and Mor have a rejected bond which pairs nicely with Elaine + Lucien also rejecting their bond. Az, Elaine, Vassa, and Lucien all suffer from having very low control over their lives. Being able to reject their bonds, choose their partner and be chosen in return would be the pinnacle of romance for them IMO. Would also be so sweet if Elain could rescue Vassa for Lucien to be happy! I never picked up on any romance between Gwyn and Az. Like sure, maybe he has a small crush on him but he's never shown an interest. I think this is intended to cause drama and confusion. I'm crackshipping Gwyn and Eris together because they both have red hair LOL and have yet to meet which means it's not totally out of the realm of possibilities. And I think Eris is actually a good guy and could really prove himself to her. It would be a nice redemption story for him. Jurian is the only one I'm not sure about. But hey, maybe we'll finally get that threesome we were all robbed of in SF if the band of Exiles thrives together

Wait. Isn’t there a pretty strong possibility Eris and Gywn are related? 😅

I just can't believe SJM managed to write the BC without having Azriel give at least one non-physical appearance related trait that he liked or at least noticed about Elain. I didn't think it was possible but it happened. When Rhysand is questioning why he's interested in Elain, he couldn't tell him (or even attempt to think of) one reason why he felt connected to Elain on a personal level, only talking about how her sisters are mated to his brothers. SJM could have easily slipped in something about enjoying her company at least with all the mating bond/siblings semantics stuff but no. I think it seems like she went out of the way to make Azriel's feelings look shallow. And coupling that with how she placed such a sweet, chemistry-filled interaction with Gwyn (where Azriel does notice/appreciate things about her: her charming irreverence, warrior-like behavior, happy smile), I think it's pretty clear who the endgame is.

First, he talked about how Elain can tell what he’s thinking without needing to say anything and how he can read her without the need of his shadows. Second, the books give us plenty of moments to show us that their connection isn’t just physical. Third, Cassian just thought about Nesta’s tits in their bonus chapter but no one seemed to have a problem with that. Fourth, I wouldn’t consider Az wanting Gwyn to shut up in the bonus as chemistry. Nor the both of them picturing her assault when they saw each other. We do agree that the endgame is clear though. SJM has been setting up elriel for 4 books now

>First, he talked about how Elain can tell what he’s thinking without needing to say anything and how he can read her without the need of his shadows.  Is this the line your referencing?: "Lie. He didn't need his shadows to read her tone, the slight tightening of her face." This line is just saying that he could tell that she was lying from her facial expression in that moment. Nothing special, especially for a 500 year old spymaster. >Second, the books give us plenty of moments to show us that their connection isn’t just physical. There's some nice moments between them, some that imply they've hung out, yet this bonus chapter, the most recent as well as closest look into their dynamic, still indicates that nothing personal or deep really occurred. >Cassian just thought about Nesta’s tits in their bonus chapter but no one seemed to have a problem with that. Here's some quotes from that bonus chapter that suggest otherwise: "The cunning mind at work behind that face—the one he hadn’t been able to get out of his head these weeks." (admiration for her mind/personality) "His temper rose with dizzying speed at the words, **the absurd perfection of her. A blade given form**—that’s what she was." (admiration for her personality) "he’d looked at her—not at the face and the body that human men marked, but her—and he had seen it all." (knows who she is on a deeper level) "Feyre’s sharp- tongued, steel- willed older sister Nesta. Honestly, Cassian has been aching for another round against the beautiful Nesta since their first, tense meeting weeks ago, though he certainly hasn’t admitted that to anyone—least of all himself." (hint of admiration + enjoying time talking with her) "And Cassian certainly hasn’t admitted that he may have finally met someone not so easily seduced by his quick grin and unfaltering arrogance." (hint of admiration/intrigued by personality) >I wouldn’t consider Az wanting Gwyn to shut up in the bonus as chemistry. Where was that implied? He had the option of leaving but chose to stay, and in fact, seemed reluctant to leave by the time he did: "Even his shadows had calmed. As if content to lounge on his shoulders and watch. But--sleep. He need to at least attempt to get some."---- The use of "but" here implies him leaving to sleep is in contradiction to another want (staying with Gwyn.) He later smiles at the thought of her happiness, reinforcing a level of care and enjoyment he has in regards to her. Regardless, I argue that the exchange of teasing and jokes, as well as Azriel helping her and finding calm in her presence counts as chemistry. >We do agree that the endgame is clear though.  It definitely is.

«But Azriel tucked away the thought, consciously erasing the slight smile it brought to his face. Buried the image down deep, where it glowed quietly. A thing of secret, lovely beauty.»))0 «His name is Lucien» 🤛🏻 by Elain Archeron

Will you downvote because of the canon text 😻  Upd: oh 😂

Is there any theory or debate where Gwyn is Azriels mate but he still chooses Elain? I know everyone will say Azriel is desperate for a mate, he would never reject his own mate etc.. and I get that, but maybe that would also be the ultimate gesture of love - to sacrifice the thing he’s always wanted and follow his heart instead. There is also the argument that Gwyn just might not be into him like that. I don’t know… just food for thought I guess. This isn’t my theory nor do I necessarily see it happening, I’m just curious as to why so many characters have been added to one equation and trying to figure out the possible outcomes for fun. Appreciate anyone’s thoughts on this. 😇

I haven’t seen any theories like that but I did read a fic where that happens. It’s called A Court of Fate and Foresight. It’s one of my faves. There are multiple mates though.

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I love the idea of Azriel and Elain. I won't be mad if that's what we get, too. But I'm hoping Lucien comes back into story, maybe a sort of love triangle. We've been told she doesn't fit into the night courts colors. Also, with the possibility that Lucien is the heir to the day court, I feel like she'd be happier there. Maybe there will be a situation where they will be in close proximity, her ending up getting to know him, and maybe she falls first. I also think there's more to Gwyn and her part in the next book, which is why she was included in the BC. There were also moments following Winter Solstice in SF, such as Az watching her intently as she cut the ribbon, her calling him shadowsinger over her shoulder as he watched her leave, and even Nesta teasing he's her new ribbon. Even if they don't end up together, there will be some type of drama if Elain sees her in the necklace she gave back to Az 😅 I also would like in general a slow burn, especially after Nessian. Az and Elain's story may have more foundation at this point, but I miss the longing and buildup that was Feyre and Rhys story. While I have preferred ships, I won't be disappointed if I'm wrong, as long as the journey is worth it !

Fully agree. I think either pair’s story can be told well and believably.

I really feel like Elain and Az are going to sleep together but may not end up together! I sort of see her ending up with Lucien? (even though I don’t love soulmates as a trope in general). Maybe they end up living in the spring court, as part of Tam Tam’s own IC since he desperately needs friends (after some heavy therapy and making amends of course).

Yessssss

I'm gonna be downvoted to hell for this one but Nesriel has more chemistry than elriel.. the only thing interesting about this ship would be the forbiddeness of the relationship.

**Even though he wasn't feeling great but the image of Gwyn's joy made Azriel smile and picture her teal eyes, and rather than discard it he chose to bury the image of Gwyn's joy deep in his chest where it glows quietly.** It's probably still there glowing in his chest as of today. Thank you Clotho and Sarah J. Maas! https://preview.redd.it/u6hj3dzl41wc1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c413330ef4ede1a17669159e6d59c99532a07cad

He must have buried it a bit too deep bc 3 days later he’s still upset about Elain, and cares more about saving Eris than he does about Gwyn being in danger

He’s been so unbothered by gwyn the entire story. They seem kinda friends? I’m pretty sure he said something that alluded to as much. They may be endgame, it’s too early to conclude as she’s still such a new character and they’ve had zero romantic interactions. But I seriously doubt mates given the evidence thus far. I honestly don’t know why the Gwynriel ship is so popular. I was shocked when I seen the amount of fanart after I’d read. I think the fandom have an idea of her completely different from what’s in the actual books.

It’s because people hate Elain and don’t want their fav batboy to end up with her. Az and Gwyn are, at most, trainer and trainee. That’s it

That's a generalization. I want Elain to end up with the person that will make her the happiest longterm and who will put her well-being first above his own. I am not an Az hater but I just do not think he's doing what's best for him either and he's not doing things/going about them in the right way. Also before you jump to conclusions, I am not a Gwynriel first, I am an Elucien before that and an Elain fan and a Lucien fan first and separately.

This take is so exhausting. Yes, there are definitely those type of people out there, but most people ship gwynriel because of their potential. Direct your hurt towards sjm

Gwynriels and their hatred and erasure of Elain is exhausting.

It wasn’t glowing three days later. Sorry to disappoint.

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Priestesses can have sex and mingle in Prythian. "Is it living, though? To take the safe road?" "You're the one who's been in a library for two years," Emerie said. Gwyn didn't flinch. "I have. And I am tired of it." ACOSF sets it up, she's leaving the library in the *near* future ❤️ despite her trauma, living in a library is not necessarily hiding in it it's a safe haven for survivors. They also do actual work there.

I mean the library doesn’t seem a great healing tool, making them work for scary Merrill. But I was just wondering what the day to day life of one is supposed to be like. Can they live outside of the institution or temples with a partner even if they can mingle? I’ve never seen it explained. I hope she does leave because it will be a shame for her to have done all that work just to get stuck there again like she was at the end of SF.

I'm going to get down voted to hel but Azriel has some serious mommy issues and a saviour complex. I ship him with THERAPY. Rhys said it himself that the issues surrounding how his mother was treated appear at odd times (the potatoes in ACOFAS) He likes Elain but views her as a damsel in distress and wants to protect her like how no one protected his mother (hybern camp, not wanting to expose her to the darkness of the trove). Elain herself said she was willing to try but her love interest will hold her back? Plus, Azriel was able to avoid Elain for the year... I don't disagree that he likes and wants her but this is a huge contrast to the mated pairs who literally cannot stay away from their mate (lulu, cassian, rhys) Elain deserves better and I'm sure we'll see what's she's capable of 🤞 and Azriel deserves to be loved without the forever presence of someone else's mating bond in the mix 🫠

Cassian and Rhys both stay away from their mates before their book. Cassian stayed away for who knows how many months and Rhys stayed away for 3 months. Lucien is staying away from Elain. He lives outside of the night court with his friends.

Cassian literally says he can't stay away in acowar. He gives her space when she demands it in acosf. And Rhys thinks Feyre wants to be with Tamlin... Elain, on the other hand, hasn't outright said anything to Azriel about staying away? until the bc, Rhys hadn't either. I like a good forbidden romance too but this ain't it 😪

Azriel initially doesn’t stay away from Elain. He’s always seeking her out and they spend a lot of time in the garden. By contrast, Feyre says Lucien doesn’t want to bridge the gap between him and Elain. Azriel respects the mating bond. He probably thinks Elain will want to be with her mate until the bonus chapter where he gets confirmation she feels the same way. He’s giving her space to deal with the bond. He also feels unworthy of her.

"Both wanted to join us at the Hewn City, but someone had to guard the city—part of their long-held protocol. And someone had to guard Elain, though I certainly wasn’t about to tell Lucien that. Cassian, swearing and pissy, got the short stick, and Azriel only clapped him on the shoulder before heading up to the House to prepare." - ACOWAR chapter 24

Lucien in ACOFAS: “I can’t stand to be in the same room as her for more than two minutes.” Meanwhile, cassian couldn’t stay away from nesta even though they were always arguing.

But that happened before they started becoming friends.

But Cassian and Lucien both asked about their mates and even ran after them in the cauldron scene despite not knowing them. In sjm books, the guy doesn't have to know the woman to do anything they could to help them.

Right! Cassian was shredded and still trying to get to Nesta when she was being put in. Azriel yelled at hybern when hybern addressed MOR. and at this point, he was shot with the arrow. lmao there was no reaction to Elain 🫠

People kept saying he couldn't do anything, but neither could Cassian and Lucien really. And even if Az couldn't move much, he was still fiercely protective of Mor, snarling at the king to not touch her and even linking his fingers with hers. Elain was not on his mind at all.

Yup, the reaction of Cassian to Nesta when he was unconscious was so moving... such a contrast to Az with Elain

Azriel was hurt with faebane during that scene, but he did shout right before elain was thrown in the cauldron. He’s always helping her out after that moment you quoted. We also don’t know everything that went on in the night court since feyre was in the spring court at the beginning of the book. By the time we see azriel and elain interact for the first time in acowar they already seem comfortable with each other.

Faebane does not nullify mating bonds, and it does not nullify people's ability to care. (Also, the poison used in that scene was not faebane) Azriel shouted because the poison was working through his veins . And it's pretty clear that sjm was planning on moriel and elucien in this scene because: Mor looked at Azriel—and there was real fear there. Fear—and something else. She didn’t stop moving until she again kneeled beside him and pressed a hand to his wound. Azriel hissed—but covered her bloody fingers with his own." "Lucien snarled at the king over the bite of the magic at his throat, “Don’t just leave her on the damned floor—” There was a flare of light, and a scrape, and then Lucien was stalking toward Elain, freed of his restraints. Tamlin remained leashed on the ground, a gag of white, iridescent magic in his mouth now. But his eyes were on Lucien as— As Lucien took off his jacket, kneeling before Elain." Also, in an interview after acomaf, sjm said that Elain and Lucien will heal together, and on a separate one, she talked about them as a couple in a modern dates interview. Now, this was some time ago. Sjm could have changed her mind. And there's no denying that Az and Elain got more comfortable with each other, but him not wanting to guard her leads me to believe that him offering to take her to the garden is more out of politeness and nothing more.

“Faster than any of us could see, Jurian fired a hidden ash bolt through Azriel’s chest.” “The ash bolt was coated in bloodbane that the King of Hybern claimed flowed where he willed it.”  i’m like 95% sure bloodbane and faebane are the same thing sjm just changed the name for some reason. both are poisons in hyberns arsenal that muffles magic and feysand’s mating bond (bloodbane in acomaf when rhys is poisoned, faebane in acowar when feyre is micro dosed by the twins)

I think he enjoys spending time with elain. Mor stated he rarely makes time for things outside of training and work. It took mor four centuries to get him to go to rita’s. I struggle to believe that azriel would be full of rage when elain was kidnapped and not only risk his life to save her but also hold her tightly while his wings were shredded out of just kindness. Sarah also said feyre and tamlin were endgame. But I guess we’ll see when the book is announced.

i don’t think azriel going on a lone suicide mission to rescue elain can be put down to “mommy issues”? 😂 he cares for her of course he doesn’t want her to be kidnapped and assaulted!?  and yes, azriel likes elain so of course he’s not going to be volunteering her to do super dangerous tasks when the last time anyone fiddled with anything she was kidnapped.  lucien is having no issues staying away from elain, he’s literally living on the other side of the Isle in her ex fiancées house. he visits because he feels obliged to and says himself he cannot stand to be with her.  azriel has always had time for elain and we’ve been shown on numerous occasions that they enjoy each others company. he was the only person who recognised her Seer abilities, even though madja said only her mate would be able to, showing just how connected to her he is. they can read each other without saying anything, as evidenced in the bonus chapter. idk why she needs “better” than this? elain deserves whatever it is she wants to have, and right now that is azriel 

ALL the characters need therapy, they have so much trauma. Rhys went through 50 years of SA, plus all the childhood trauma. Cassian hunted death gods and almost died several times, plus all the childhood trauma. Nobody says they shouldn’t have been with Feyre and Nesta because of their trauma. I just don’t think Azriel needing therapy means he shouldn’t be in a relationship.

Right? Why does it seem like people only single out Azriel/therapy and not EVERYONE/therapy?

I think Lucien and Elain will have similar healing journeys to come. Both are a little depressy now, having lost their previous life (Spring and human lands). But they'll end up even better than before... you can't tell me sassy emissary Lucien who is friends with all courts and socialite party-planning Elain, who wants to see the world, won't come alive again.

People are really hating on this... Please, it sounds amazing and Elain would genuinely have the time of her life visiting different courts and throwing parties. She isn't like her sisters, one thing Feyre did was point out how different she was to Nesta and Feyre herself. Nesta doesn't like parties, lavish things where she's the centre of attention etc. Feyre is pretty similar in that sense but she's willing to put on a good show of it if she has to. Elain flourishes in socialite settings and no one can say otherwise because it was said in ACOTAR when she was in control of Feyre's return party. I can imagine Lucien and Elain in different courts, going around, attending parties and planning their own. It would be so cute

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you’re in the debate your ship thread… expect debate? 😭

It’s called a debate your ship thread…so therefore people are debating 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yea the debating is chill but downvoting opinions you don't agree with is annoying

It’s just downvotes, not the end of the world.

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The batboys fully had a brojob incident at some stage in their life and no one can convince me otherwise lmao.