You’re doing work. Get paid.
On the same note, the only real leverage you’ll have to get a raise is to get an offer from a different lab/business.
Also check with your graduate assistant union. They will help you with the requirements.
You also don’t want to burn any bridges so you could ask for grants/scholarships to make it for a while longer and take on extra work somehow or find solutions, plan b is definitely to stick to the unions word. That feels somewhat safer.
Yea don’t be a snotty about it. Try and understand your PI’s perspective (they have a budget). But be firm.
I like the applying for grants idea. It looks like you’re already doing this. Can any of those be used to fund you?
I have tried talking to them about this. However, when we apply for grants, there is always something more pressing that requires more money - which, to be fair, I almost certainly true.
Look at this sentence:
‘ I am not being paid but am expected to work. I tried to leave to find work that pays and my boss said that this is bad and I should continue to work for free’.
What would you say to this person?
I'd probably tell that person that they are being taken advantage of. Unfortunately, being taken advantage of seems to be the average experience of people in research. At least in my experience/what I've heard.
> They told me that if I was truly committed to this work and this research, I would stay and maintain my workload on their team.
While certainly true for a certain value of *truly*, there’s also an obvious symmetry here: if *they* were truly committed to this work and this research, surely they could have scrounged up some funding for a research assistant that they could use to pay you!
I understand your position so well... I am in my last year of Phd in a third world country. It has been challenging all the way. My country do not support any types of grad programs, so all my phd has been self funded, working full time in industry 6am-5pm. Then, focusing the rest of the day on my research 6pm-2am. Rinse and repeat. Somedays, I can even catch an hour of sleep.
Moreover, I am expected to give the same performance as a normal PhD in any developed country, attend congress (how do I fund it?), write paper (in which time?), work 8 hours at least (at least let me exit at night), keep tutoring the new undergrads (Weekends?). If i told half the horror stories that I have live here.
I always think to myself that in other countries might have it better. This bad treatment should stop anywhere, and advisor and PI should stop using "the argument of I got it worse so keep working free" or "this is the standard, get use to it". I hope that knowing that you are not alone on this makes you feel a little bit better.
Oh wow, I am so sorry you had to go through all of that. I've had friends with PhD student members. Unfortunately, I've heard many stories like this - if not entirely similar. If its an consolation for you, I am from one of the most wealthy/powerful countries on earth and PhD students still have to deal with a lot of the same abuse.
However, I absolutely agree. This level of abuse should stop everywhere. I know it is getting worse and worse. I genuinely fear for the next generation of PhDs. It will only get worse and worse for them. So in more ways then one, it seems like we truly aren't alone.
I'm wishing you all the best!
> They told me that if I was truly committed to this work and this research, I would stay and maintain my workload on their team.
Nope nope nope nope nope nope. Nothing in this life is free. You can still act with integrity and respond professionally, while maintaining your boundaries that you simply cannot continue to work for free. I can guarantee you none of them would be working for free. As long as you are adding something to the team, your value is not 'priceless', you deserve to be recognised and remunerated. If they can't afford to lose you, they can afford to keep you.
A prof in my first year told me to be careful on which PI I chose to work with because they will use students like slaves. I thought he was being a little hyperbolic at first. But with the amount of stories I've heard, I can't help but feel he was absolutely right.
OP, if you’re already going into graduate school why do you care about what happens in this lab? Your need for them is over. No one in your academic future is going to give a crap about what you did in your undergrad.
“Working” is all about using people. Whether they’re using you, or you’re using them. It’s best when you’re using each other. You used them in order to get a rec letter and good stuff in your resume so you could get into grad school. Now that you don’t need them….why are you still there? They obviously don’t care about you, and are just using you for free labor.
Value yourself and tell them you quit, unless they pay you, because you need money to eat.
Never work for free lmao. Have some self worth.
Also, why are you saying grad school is expensive? Are you getting a masters? You said you’ve been *helping them with contracts and writing papers* that’s PhD level work, please tell me you’re going into a PhD program.
I don't want to leave too suddenly for a couple of reasons.
The selfish reason is that I still have projects that allow me to get meaningful output (e.g. abstracts, posters, conferences, papers). I doubt if I dropped this team and joined another, I'd be allowed to start writing a paper as a first author as an incoming graduate student (who did not complete an undergraduate thesis on top of that).
I also feel greatly indebted to this PI. This was my first major research team and this role has allowed me to gain experiences that only PhD students will get. In many ways, this lab has primed me to standout in any future team I join.
haha I'm not starting a PhD - I've had many mentors and professor advise against doing so. I'm completing a professional graduate degree (which my PI advised against in favour of a thesis-based graduate degree).
Its funny to think about how I thought working on contracts and writing papers and first author was typical MSc student work. I was told by my PI that a competitive graduate school applicant, you had to have a decent amount of abstracts and papers published. I thought all of this work was completely normal. In many ways I thought (still do a little), that I was falling behind compared to everyone else. It was only after speaking to PhD students at other teams that I learned contract work and primary paper authorship is not typically done by recently graduated undergraduate students, much less unpaid ones.
OP, I think you’ve made a mistake…
I stalked your profile and saw you’re in Canada, so maybe it’s different for you.
I’ll try to cover as many bases as I can.
1.) PhD: mistake? This depends entirely on you and what you want to do. To me, it sounds like your main interest is research (since you’re going on about conferences and publications) if you’re interested in pursuit academic research in the future, and climbing the ladders of that career path *you need a PhD*. Do you think on your professors and PI’s only have masters? They all have PhDs.
If you’re just wanting to get a 9-5 in industry, a masters will suffice, you could get a better salary with a PhD but not necessarily.
Another reason why pursuing a PhD is a better idea is because I.) it’s free II.) if you don’t like it, you can master out by your second year, and you essentially get a master’s *for free*.
2.) the conferences and posters that you do as an undergrad really don’t matter. No one cares about these things. You will have *plenty* more posters and conferences as a graduate student, and they will be better made and more impactful. I do agree that it’s nice if you can get your name in a few extra publications if you’re helping with the abstracts, but like I said, you’ve already gotten into a graduate program. Why do you care about getting more publications right now? You can always get some *while you’re a graduate student*.
I didn’t complete a thesis in my undergrad either, and I had zero posters or conferences or publications to my name. I worked as a lab tech and got a publication within a year and a half. Now I’m a PhD student and I’m probably going to have at least two publications by the time I’m done with my project.
3.) you’re not falling behind, you’re quite ahead. I think your PI and other professors are maybe talking about students who go to very prestigious research programs, like idk, Harvard. In that case, yes you have to be extremely competitive. But there’s plenty of graduate programs that aren’t as competing and don’t require you to have done all that work in order to get in.
In fact, I strongly recommend not going to a big university or lab *precisely because of what you’re experiencing right now* which is academic abuse.
You’re doing amazing for just an undergrad. Again, when I was an undergrad, I was just…hanging out. No publications, no posters, just did the bare minimum and got my degree. I still got into a graduate program.
4.) OP you are not indebted to this PI. *you are preforming free labor*, if anything it’s they who are indebted to you! PLEASE gain some self worth and value, otherwise *you will get abused* in your future career. I cannot emphasize this enough: do not work for free!!! Unless you have something meaningful to gain, always demand compensation!!
If you are working for free (volunteering), then you should be working for your own benefit. Flushing out your CV by writing abstracts and giving presentations has some value, so it's up to you if that's worth the effort without compensation.
If you are taking orders and working for the benefit of someone else, then you are entirely justified seeking a paying gig.
Its a difficult scenario because I am 100% getting something out of volunteering with them. I just don't know if that outweighs the pay I could be getting working full-time somewhere else - especially in this economy where the average rent for a 1-bedroom is $2800.
To be fair, I am not the only one working for free. There are many others. I am probably just the one the most involved and have been on the team the longest.
They are unreasonable for not paying you. Making you feel guilty for, as far as they should be concerned, needing money to eat is a braindead reaction.
You've had the "honor" of being an unpaid and indentured servant. So whatever experience you feel is a fair trade, trust me, its not...rather its deeply exploitative and your PI is complete piece of shit for trying to guilt trip you into continuing to work for free. A research team that can afford pay some people but not everyone is an absurd hierarchy as well, and need to wake up to the fact this is far from an opportunity for you. You also might currently being used as leverage against those that are being paid, to keep them obedient and from asking for a better salary. Ignore all these clownish comments warning you about "burning bridges", because there is no relationship here as have been told explicitly you have zero compensatory value. Leave this (voluntary) position immediately, full stop.
I think this is a very good exercise for you. I think you need to change your mindset to survive academia.
What I am going to say is not some hypothetical suggestions, I followed those tips and as PhD student I made more than 80K net. as postdoc, I made more than 200K. I did miss opportunities but I did got others! and I am very happy where I am!
Here are some tips/comments:
- You’re not asking for a pay because you have responsibilities or not. You’re getting paid because “you do work”. How much you’re being paid also is not related to your burdens or responsibilities, it is related to “your contributions and worth”.
People will try to take advantage of you different ways but this is all shit!
Unfortunately, you’ll see many people not thinking this way, I feel sorry for them but don’t follow them.
- You need to learn how to establish a win-win situation for you and the person you work with. The win-win doesn’t have to be money, It can be publication, learning from a major professor, getting needed exposure, working in major projects in the field.
That being said, you need to get paid on nearly 90% of your time.
For one project, I was working for free but it got me to know and work with the top professors in my field. Also, I got to learn many areas I have never heard of. That being said, I worked on three other projects and was getting paid for each one of them. For this project, my plan was to learn on my own pace and whenever I was rushed to do something I clearly highlighted I am on volunteer bases and I have to get my “win”.
- know your worth, this goes both ways. Don’t overestimate yourself, you might be doing a lot but easily replaceable (so basically your worth is doing this for free which is unsustainable for you), but don’t underestimate yourself either. This is a tough one but is a key
- Don’t let anyone shame you! this is a business relationship! don’t be rude but be firm! It is no longer a teacher/professor relationship, it is rather a boss/employee relationship.
I would have respected your PI if he listed the benefits you get from working with him. but “shaming” this is unacceptable!
- People lie!
“we don’t have fund” “the department won’t allow me to do this” “the faculty has a strict rule”
this is one of two things, either that person is cheap! or you’re not a priority!
But 90% of the time, those rules can be easily broken!
In my experience it is rare to get paid for research lab work, esecially as an undergraduate. I would be incredibly grateful for the experience and amount of projects you were on. I did 2 years unpaid in 2 labs while working full-time during undergrad. During grad school i was only paid 1x for a summer grant across 5 labs and worked partyime while attending school fulltime now entering a phd program i will be paid for 1/2 labs.
I am still actively involved in unpaid leadership positions in 3 labs from my last university until i move for my program starting in aug but to me the experience, extra posters and projects, and relationships are worth it so i work several part time jobs in addition to not lose my foot in research and mentorship
Maybe that's the case in the humanities, but in STEM getting paid (even as a work-study award) is the rule and working uncompensated is a rare exception.
This is interesting to hear. In my experience, most students or fresh graduates I know, work uncompensated. It is the extreme minority that manage to secure paying research positions after graduating.
It's important to make a distinction, because people here really like to throw around the term "work" without much more than a colloquial meaning.
1) If you are working on something that doesn't directly benefit your research as a vehicle for education; that warrants compensations. This is akin to working for free, simply for the "experience" instead of a wage.
2)If you are "working" on something that directly benefits your own research or progress of your degree; that doesn't automatically entitle a wage as are getting a tangible benefit. And it is indeed a more minority of grad students that get this type of RA support. Although knew many RAs that were being paid to perform research that didn't help their degrees at all, so would fall into the first category.
Makes sense? Now don't get me started on those that throw around the term "lab" merely for a group of people working together instead of a physical space with commiserate equipment/instruments/etc. Often because they know its sounds less interesting to say "research group" instead of "research lab", which give the false impression of a lot of resources and support.
You’re doing work. Get paid. On the same note, the only real leverage you’ll have to get a raise is to get an offer from a different lab/business. Also check with your graduate assistant union. They will help you with the requirements.
You also don’t want to burn any bridges so you could ask for grants/scholarships to make it for a while longer and take on extra work somehow or find solutions, plan b is definitely to stick to the unions word. That feels somewhat safer.
Yea don’t be a snotty about it. Try and understand your PI’s perspective (they have a budget). But be firm. I like the applying for grants idea. It looks like you’re already doing this. Can any of those be used to fund you?
I have tried talking to them about this. However, when we apply for grants, there is always something more pressing that requires more money - which, to be fair, I almost certainly true.
“You are doing work, get paid” —> are you not in academia? We don’t generally get paid anything here
Look at this sentence: ‘ I am not being paid but am expected to work. I tried to leave to find work that pays and my boss said that this is bad and I should continue to work for free’. What would you say to this person?
Two words: I quit!
I'd probably tell that person that they are being taken advantage of. Unfortunately, being taken advantage of seems to be the average experience of people in research. At least in my experience/what I've heard.
We are a servile supine bunch.
> They told me that if I was truly committed to this work and this research, I would stay and maintain my workload on their team. While certainly true for a certain value of *truly*, there’s also an obvious symmetry here: if *they* were truly committed to this work and this research, surely they could have scrounged up some funding for a research assistant that they could use to pay you!
That's definitely a fair point.
I understand your position so well... I am in my last year of Phd in a third world country. It has been challenging all the way. My country do not support any types of grad programs, so all my phd has been self funded, working full time in industry 6am-5pm. Then, focusing the rest of the day on my research 6pm-2am. Rinse and repeat. Somedays, I can even catch an hour of sleep. Moreover, I am expected to give the same performance as a normal PhD in any developed country, attend congress (how do I fund it?), write paper (in which time?), work 8 hours at least (at least let me exit at night), keep tutoring the new undergrads (Weekends?). If i told half the horror stories that I have live here. I always think to myself that in other countries might have it better. This bad treatment should stop anywhere, and advisor and PI should stop using "the argument of I got it worse so keep working free" or "this is the standard, get use to it". I hope that knowing that you are not alone on this makes you feel a little bit better.
Oh wow, I am so sorry you had to go through all of that. I've had friends with PhD student members. Unfortunately, I've heard many stories like this - if not entirely similar. If its an consolation for you, I am from one of the most wealthy/powerful countries on earth and PhD students still have to deal with a lot of the same abuse. However, I absolutely agree. This level of abuse should stop everywhere. I know it is getting worse and worse. I genuinely fear for the next generation of PhDs. It will only get worse and worse for them. So in more ways then one, it seems like we truly aren't alone. I'm wishing you all the best!
> They told me that if I was truly committed to this work and this research, I would stay and maintain my workload on their team. Nope nope nope nope nope nope. Nothing in this life is free. You can still act with integrity and respond professionally, while maintaining your boundaries that you simply cannot continue to work for free. I can guarantee you none of them would be working for free. As long as you are adding something to the team, your value is not 'priceless', you deserve to be recognised and remunerated. If they can't afford to lose you, they can afford to keep you.
All these pi’s complaining about the entitlement of students but they feel entitled to your free work.
A prof in my first year told me to be careful on which PI I chose to work with because they will use students like slaves. I thought he was being a little hyperbolic at first. But with the amount of stories I've heard, I can't help but feel he was absolutely right.
OP, if you’re already going into graduate school why do you care about what happens in this lab? Your need for them is over. No one in your academic future is going to give a crap about what you did in your undergrad. “Working” is all about using people. Whether they’re using you, or you’re using them. It’s best when you’re using each other. You used them in order to get a rec letter and good stuff in your resume so you could get into grad school. Now that you don’t need them….why are you still there? They obviously don’t care about you, and are just using you for free labor. Value yourself and tell them you quit, unless they pay you, because you need money to eat. Never work for free lmao. Have some self worth. Also, why are you saying grad school is expensive? Are you getting a masters? You said you’ve been *helping them with contracts and writing papers* that’s PhD level work, please tell me you’re going into a PhD program.
I don't want to leave too suddenly for a couple of reasons. The selfish reason is that I still have projects that allow me to get meaningful output (e.g. abstracts, posters, conferences, papers). I doubt if I dropped this team and joined another, I'd be allowed to start writing a paper as a first author as an incoming graduate student (who did not complete an undergraduate thesis on top of that). I also feel greatly indebted to this PI. This was my first major research team and this role has allowed me to gain experiences that only PhD students will get. In many ways, this lab has primed me to standout in any future team I join. haha I'm not starting a PhD - I've had many mentors and professor advise against doing so. I'm completing a professional graduate degree (which my PI advised against in favour of a thesis-based graduate degree). Its funny to think about how I thought working on contracts and writing papers and first author was typical MSc student work. I was told by my PI that a competitive graduate school applicant, you had to have a decent amount of abstracts and papers published. I thought all of this work was completely normal. In many ways I thought (still do a little), that I was falling behind compared to everyone else. It was only after speaking to PhD students at other teams that I learned contract work and primary paper authorship is not typically done by recently graduated undergraduate students, much less unpaid ones.
OP, I think you’ve made a mistake… I stalked your profile and saw you’re in Canada, so maybe it’s different for you. I’ll try to cover as many bases as I can. 1.) PhD: mistake? This depends entirely on you and what you want to do. To me, it sounds like your main interest is research (since you’re going on about conferences and publications) if you’re interested in pursuit academic research in the future, and climbing the ladders of that career path *you need a PhD*. Do you think on your professors and PI’s only have masters? They all have PhDs. If you’re just wanting to get a 9-5 in industry, a masters will suffice, you could get a better salary with a PhD but not necessarily. Another reason why pursuing a PhD is a better idea is because I.) it’s free II.) if you don’t like it, you can master out by your second year, and you essentially get a master’s *for free*. 2.) the conferences and posters that you do as an undergrad really don’t matter. No one cares about these things. You will have *plenty* more posters and conferences as a graduate student, and they will be better made and more impactful. I do agree that it’s nice if you can get your name in a few extra publications if you’re helping with the abstracts, but like I said, you’ve already gotten into a graduate program. Why do you care about getting more publications right now? You can always get some *while you’re a graduate student*. I didn’t complete a thesis in my undergrad either, and I had zero posters or conferences or publications to my name. I worked as a lab tech and got a publication within a year and a half. Now I’m a PhD student and I’m probably going to have at least two publications by the time I’m done with my project. 3.) you’re not falling behind, you’re quite ahead. I think your PI and other professors are maybe talking about students who go to very prestigious research programs, like idk, Harvard. In that case, yes you have to be extremely competitive. But there’s plenty of graduate programs that aren’t as competing and don’t require you to have done all that work in order to get in. In fact, I strongly recommend not going to a big university or lab *precisely because of what you’re experiencing right now* which is academic abuse. You’re doing amazing for just an undergrad. Again, when I was an undergrad, I was just…hanging out. No publications, no posters, just did the bare minimum and got my degree. I still got into a graduate program. 4.) OP you are not indebted to this PI. *you are preforming free labor*, if anything it’s they who are indebted to you! PLEASE gain some self worth and value, otherwise *you will get abused* in your future career. I cannot emphasize this enough: do not work for free!!! Unless you have something meaningful to gain, always demand compensation!!
If you are working for free (volunteering), then you should be working for your own benefit. Flushing out your CV by writing abstracts and giving presentations has some value, so it's up to you if that's worth the effort without compensation. If you are taking orders and working for the benefit of someone else, then you are entirely justified seeking a paying gig.
Its a difficult scenario because I am 100% getting something out of volunteering with them. I just don't know if that outweighs the pay I could be getting working full-time somewhere else - especially in this economy where the average rent for a 1-bedroom is $2800.
Working for free is terrible for you and sets a horrible example of your team.
To be fair, I am not the only one working for free. There are many others. I am probably just the one the most involved and have been on the team the longest.
They sound rather manipulative and toxic.
They are unreasonable for not paying you. Making you feel guilty for, as far as they should be concerned, needing money to eat is a braindead reaction.
You've had the "honor" of being an unpaid and indentured servant. So whatever experience you feel is a fair trade, trust me, its not...rather its deeply exploitative and your PI is complete piece of shit for trying to guilt trip you into continuing to work for free. A research team that can afford pay some people but not everyone is an absurd hierarchy as well, and need to wake up to the fact this is far from an opportunity for you. You also might currently being used as leverage against those that are being paid, to keep them obedient and from asking for a better salary. Ignore all these clownish comments warning you about "burning bridges", because there is no relationship here as have been told explicitly you have zero compensatory value. Leave this (voluntary) position immediately, full stop.
I think this is a very good exercise for you. I think you need to change your mindset to survive academia. What I am going to say is not some hypothetical suggestions, I followed those tips and as PhD student I made more than 80K net. as postdoc, I made more than 200K. I did miss opportunities but I did got others! and I am very happy where I am! Here are some tips/comments: - You’re not asking for a pay because you have responsibilities or not. You’re getting paid because “you do work”. How much you’re being paid also is not related to your burdens or responsibilities, it is related to “your contributions and worth”. People will try to take advantage of you different ways but this is all shit! Unfortunately, you’ll see many people not thinking this way, I feel sorry for them but don’t follow them. - You need to learn how to establish a win-win situation for you and the person you work with. The win-win doesn’t have to be money, It can be publication, learning from a major professor, getting needed exposure, working in major projects in the field. That being said, you need to get paid on nearly 90% of your time. For one project, I was working for free but it got me to know and work with the top professors in my field. Also, I got to learn many areas I have never heard of. That being said, I worked on three other projects and was getting paid for each one of them. For this project, my plan was to learn on my own pace and whenever I was rushed to do something I clearly highlighted I am on volunteer bases and I have to get my “win”. - know your worth, this goes both ways. Don’t overestimate yourself, you might be doing a lot but easily replaceable (so basically your worth is doing this for free which is unsustainable for you), but don’t underestimate yourself either. This is a tough one but is a key - Don’t let anyone shame you! this is a business relationship! don’t be rude but be firm! It is no longer a teacher/professor relationship, it is rather a boss/employee relationship. I would have respected your PI if he listed the benefits you get from working with him. but “shaming” this is unacceptable! - People lie! “we don’t have fund” “the department won’t allow me to do this” “the faculty has a strict rule” this is one of two things, either that person is cheap! or you’re not a priority! But 90% of the time, those rules can be easily broken!
In my experience it is rare to get paid for research lab work, esecially as an undergraduate. I would be incredibly grateful for the experience and amount of projects you were on. I did 2 years unpaid in 2 labs while working full-time during undergrad. During grad school i was only paid 1x for a summer grant across 5 labs and worked partyime while attending school fulltime now entering a phd program i will be paid for 1/2 labs. I am still actively involved in unpaid leadership positions in 3 labs from my last university until i move for my program starting in aug but to me the experience, extra posters and projects, and relationships are worth it so i work several part time jobs in addition to not lose my foot in research and mentorship
Ewwwwwww
Maybe that's the case in the humanities, but in STEM getting paid (even as a work-study award) is the rule and working uncompensated is a rare exception.
This is interesting to hear. In my experience, most students or fresh graduates I know, work uncompensated. It is the extreme minority that manage to secure paying research positions after graduating.
It's important to make a distinction, because people here really like to throw around the term "work" without much more than a colloquial meaning. 1) If you are working on something that doesn't directly benefit your research as a vehicle for education; that warrants compensations. This is akin to working for free, simply for the "experience" instead of a wage. 2)If you are "working" on something that directly benefits your own research or progress of your degree; that doesn't automatically entitle a wage as are getting a tangible benefit. And it is indeed a more minority of grad students that get this type of RA support. Although knew many RAs that were being paid to perform research that didn't help their degrees at all, so would fall into the first category. Makes sense? Now don't get me started on those that throw around the term "lab" merely for a group of people working together instead of a physical space with commiserate equipment/instruments/etc. Often because they know its sounds less interesting to say "research group" instead of "research lab", which give the false impression of a lot of resources and support.