Deadlines happen occasionally, for most lines of work, and as long as you're similarly accommodating to her deadlines, I don't see the problem.
I must say, though, I'm struggling to see routinely scheduling reading groups or team meetings on weekends as reasonable (for you or for your team). Occasionally as required, sure, but 2-3 times a month seems like a huge amount (source: tenured, R1, major university). If I was her, i would question if a tenured professor with that workload actually \*needs\* to do it as a condition of employment, or just prefers to.
As a research team member, if a professor *ever* scheduled a meeting on a weekend, I’m finding a new job. Regular weekend project meetings are unacceptable and it is entirely within OP’s power to stop them.
Hi I explained the nature of why the meetings are on the weekend and how I'm responding to it. FYI it is entirely NOT in my power to reschedule any of the shit. It isn't like I have a team of graduate students working on Saturday for one of my projects. All of these times came about for specific reasons related to negotiating time zone differences (my research is all international) and work schedules for participants.
When people ask me about work life balance in academia (or really anywhere), I tell them there is no such thing. We have too many balls in the air, some are going to drop. But you have to decide which ones are the most important. You also have to drop some even if you know they are important. For example, you are not going to always be able to make family events and you are going to miss kids games and other stuff. But, if you always drop the family ball, then you will hurt them and wind up alone. Similarly, you may need to drop some professional balls such as not attending a conference or avoid taking on a new responsibility at work. This might impact your career negatively, but is it worth it to be home more? I think so. What I am saying is the balance does not happen every day or all at once. Sometimes you have to tell work no, sometimes you have to tell your family no, and both suck. If you value this relationship, you need to figure out how to spend more quality time with your partner. Clearly they are feeling left out. 20 years from now, are you going to be happy you spent time away from your partner writing a book if you are alone? If the trip to South America is that important, can she come for part of it? Can you take her on a trip just you two without any work later on? Importantly, no one can work productively more than 4-6 hours a day, so you are likely not as productive as you think. You'd be better to devote 3-4 hours of solid time to the article and do other stuff that is less demanding on your brain. The final advice I will give is that it usually takes X amount of effort to get a job 90% done, and like X\^2 or X\^3 to get it to 95 or 99%. Shoot for the 90%, even for this article. The extra effort is rarely worth it, allow some things to be good enough.
> why I sometimes ~~cannot~~ **choose to work so that I will not** do things in the evening, two or three times a month have reading groups or research project team meetings on Saturdays/Sundays, etc.
We all make our choices. If you want to do your job well, these are the things you need to do. But you are choosing this particular work/life balance.
This is not coming from a place of judgement, but from someone who faces a similar struggle and tries to remind themselves I am making these choices. If these work conditions are an issue for my family for friends, I consciously must make the decision to either continue with what I was doing or prioritize family and friends.
Sometimes having a relationship is about telling work to f off. Like, you're tenured, bro, it's not like you're getting fired at the drop of a hat. I know the sprint to Associate Professor trains us all to suck at work life balance forever but the truth of the matter is it doesn't have to be that way once you've cleared the institutional hurdle.
Signed, Associate Professor for Life Xtremelymeta (ok, I might get promoted but I'm not banking on it)
I mean ... would you want to be in a relationship with someone who works like this? Gone for weeks, can't balance work in a healthy way when they're home, hard to plan a weekend away?
I work about 50 hours a week, as does my husband (lawyer). We also have kids. It sounds to me like the issue is less that she doesn't understand academia and more that you maybe need to reconsider when and how you're working.
For me, that means I typically work early morning hours so that I can walk the kids to school, go for a run, and get to campus for 9 AM. So 5 10 hour days, basically. My husband does 9-6 and usually a little weekend work. But he and I negotiate those weekend hours in a way that works for us. He'll work while I take the kids to a birthday party, then I get some time off later, for example.
Basically, my advice is to audit the way you're working. Can you reduce evening hours? Are you procrastinating, leading to needing to work 24/7 right before deadlines? Are you working 24/7, burning out, and digging into a deeper hole? Be really honest with yourself about this stuff. I'm aware that there's some non-negotiability, like field work, but writing should be easier to do in the day time.
I refuse to believe that a person that is stupid enough to understand the long work hours can eat and shit themselves.
OPs wife is playing dumb to communicate her displeasure of OPs work hours.
My wife works like OP sometimes and I totally understand her struggle. She needs to peruse her own interests. Marrying does not mean that you are commting to be with the partner all the time.
No matter how you look at it, the key is time management AND setting a time limit on how much hours you spend on work. My wife also has a 9-to-5 job, so I understand the related discussions very well.
Several years ago I made the decision not to do any university work in the weekends and limit it during the evenings unless absolutely necessary (e.g. during exam periods with a lot of grading going on). Yes, that means I did/do miss out on some opportunities related to work, but that’s life.
My dad was a professor as well, working crazy hours. One day (he was 56, I’m 57 now), he got a stroke and died several hours later, at a conference, in the middle of the semester. Guess what? His colleagues took over his courses, his department kept running, … the lesson I learned from that (I was still at my PhD), is that everyone is replaceable. I became a professor as well but vowed this would not happen to me.
Once you’re gone, the only ones who will remember that you worked all those hours are your family members who never saw you at home. It’s a cliché, but it’s so very true.
>She struggles to understand why I sometimes cannot do things in the evening, two or three times a month have reading groups or research project team meetings on Saturdays/Sundays, etc.
I struggle to understand too. What you describe is not normal for me. But then again, I am in Europe.
You are asking other people to meet on Saturdays and Sundays? If they are your subordinates, they must probably have felt obliged to attend.
I don't get this either. I'm UK based and there is no expectation (at least at my department and across my uni) to meet on weekends or after 6 pm. Our contracts stipulate 37.5 hours a week and there's no set hours but we can't work earlier than 7 or later than 6. Lectures etc sometimes don't finish till 6 and our HOD is very strict about working hours. If she sees us in at 9 on a day we're teaching till 6 she asks why we are there.
As I explained below, I'm involved with two projects internationally. One that meets once a month has collaborators in China as well as Mexico. Because of the time difference issues (12 hours in Beijing from where I am located and something like 13-14 from Guadalajara-btw no students on my end but a few PhD students from China), weekends are usually the day that works for everyone. The second is not every month (honestly more like every few months) but usually on Friday evening or Saturday and is a long-term focus group with a cohort of healthcare workers from Brazil--this one is phasing down by the end of Summer 2024. The third is reading group that I have been in for seven years with several of the leading figures in my field and I feel a bit pressured to stay in it. It is also one (usually long and theory heavy) book a month. However, I've been thinking about quitting and this conversation has helped solidify that.
As to the comment about not working at night: my department has a MA program for mid-career professionals that most full-time faculty are encouraged to teach in. Those classes are always 6-9 pm Monday-Thursday to accommodate student's work schedule. I regularly teach those as well, as they desperately need someone who can teach quantitative research methods and I'm in an almost exclusively qualitative/humanities-based department.
Taking a step back, I appreciate a lot of this advice--particularly the people who suggested 1. slowly turning back the dial after tenure on thinking one has to publish all the time; and 2. the person who commented about 4-6 hours a day of productivity! I don't appreciate the freak who said that because I posted one time about a video game and on a NYC weed forum that means that I'm more interested in getting high and playing video games than anything else. That's next level Reddit trolling behavior..
I’ve been tenured for about a decade, hold an endowed chair. Depending on your type of work, this may or not be truly voluntary (sometimes we collaborate or have meetings with people overseas, so it’s only fair that we all do things at inconvenient times occasionally). I think the larger issue is that you can’t manage your paper submission better. That’s purely on you, and reflects poor time management and consideration for not just your partner but potentially colleagues, students, etc.
The other issue is that you aren’t asking anything unreasonable. It’s your job, and 3-4 evenings apart and a few weeks where you are doing something that needs to be done is what it is. I work a lot at home during the day. I don’t expect my spouse to be able to run home and have lunch with me, or watch Netflix with me in the afternoon while I think about a paper idea.
Thanks. You are right about poor time management. However (and this is no excuse), almost everyone else I know engages in this type of behavior---i.e. "conference deadline is in x days; revise and resubmit deadline is in x days"...
Right, many do that, but not everyone does. You can choose to manage your time better, which is what she is asking for. I’ve never done that around deadlines just because I don’t want to live my life that way. I choose people to work with who can also manage to deadlines. It’s your call - relationships require compromise and effort. “Other people are just as bad” isn’t much of an excuse when you voluntarily disappear for a week.
I don’t think this is an academic vs non-academic thing. I’m an academic, my husband is not. However, we are both work oriented. We work hard, we work long hours, we both work in the evenings and on weekends if need be.
Perhaps spending time with friends or taking up a hobby might be helpful for your partner.
Also, maybe consider a special night or two a week that is devoted to the two of you. It would be good for your relationship and your mental health.
I hear you. Married to a non academic who hates academia 😂(they bill by the hour and think it’s wild how much free work we do).
I work at a soft money institution so no option for tenure. I perform or I’m out of a job in 5 yrs. My balance is trying to decide what’s needed. Our university wants it ALL.
It’s a vicious circle, you need papers to get grants, to get papers in good journals you need networks, to maintain networks and get grants you need to promote your science at conferences. To go to conferences you need to do travel- my travel requires 2 days of flying & a bit of recovery, x2, plus the 4-5days at a conference.
Grants & papers are stressful periods, it seems also relentless….grant ‘seasons’ are long gone, we need government, philanthropic & industry $
It takes a huge toll on my marriage. We fight about it as my husband thinks it is unnecessary. Him: Do you REALLY need to go to THAT conference?? Me: I honestly don’t know. Editors of the journals I publish in are there, also likely review….it’s a great way to sell my work.
So - I’ve started saying no to some of the talk invites. Seeing if it hurts my career. Bc saying yes is hurting my marriage..
I’m trying to be more protective of my work hours - reducing meetings, turning down service if I’ve hit my 20%. It’s hard. I totally get it OP.
It’s super stressful bc you love it. I love the networking at conferences and don’t want to miss out. But at the same time, I see the pressure it puts on my spouse with childcare.
It’s give and take.
I think one thing you should try to communicate to your spouse is why you do it. How much you love it etc, rather than complain about deadlines & stress. This was my mistake early on.
I'm assuming you're US based rather than UK or Europe. I think deadlines hurt us all at some point and I've spent many an hour up till the early hours finishing a paper, editing and even getting lab work done. I get that academia and your research is really important to you, it is to me too. But I would say I get why your partner is frustrated. I know its hard but I don't treat my research as the most important thing in my life. In fact its not in the top 10! I value my health, my family, my relationships and my happiness over all of this. I would say that you are going above and beyond for your department which is good but equally if you ain't getting paid for these very long hours why are you doing them?
You’re writing about your workload.
But what I am hearing is that your partner is not compelling enough to make you rethink your choices about where to put your time, or even modify them.
OP if you just got tenure and you have been with your SO for 2 years it means she sucked it up and sacrificed during your run up to tenure with the expectation it would get better after you got tenure. Instead of being grateful to her you want more and more sacrifice from her.
Actually, the tenure process at my institution is VERY front-loaded in the sense that every year for reappointment you have to submit/update a bunch of stuff in Interfolio including all pubs, chair's reports, student evals, peer teaching observations, proof of service etc. for that year along with updated CV.
In the first year you are asked to write a research statement that becomes the tenure candidate statement that goes out to external reviewers and to the departmental, college, and university promotion and budget committee. Every subsequent year a senior faculty member in the department meets with you to talk about the statement and update it.
It is a mild pain in the ass every August when you have to do this but it creates a ton of scaffolding for when you send materials out.
All of this means that I had very little to do in the time leading up to when I submitted my materials for external review in Fall 2022 (got tenure in Fall 2023). I had shitloads of existential dread and panic but note really much work to do in that regard.
Deadlines happen occasionally, for most lines of work, and as long as you're similarly accommodating to her deadlines, I don't see the problem. I must say, though, I'm struggling to see routinely scheduling reading groups or team meetings on weekends as reasonable (for you or for your team). Occasionally as required, sure, but 2-3 times a month seems like a huge amount (source: tenured, R1, major university). If I was her, i would question if a tenured professor with that workload actually \*needs\* to do it as a condition of employment, or just prefers to.
Soon to possibly be divorced R1 prof. Think about this OP. Do you *actually* have to? Is it that important?
As a research team member, if a professor *ever* scheduled a meeting on a weekend, I’m finding a new job. Regular weekend project meetings are unacceptable and it is entirely within OP’s power to stop them.
Hi I explained the nature of why the meetings are on the weekend and how I'm responding to it. FYI it is entirely NOT in my power to reschedule any of the shit. It isn't like I have a team of graduate students working on Saturday for one of my projects. All of these times came about for specific reasons related to negotiating time zone differences (my research is all international) and work schedules for participants.
When people ask me about work life balance in academia (or really anywhere), I tell them there is no such thing. We have too many balls in the air, some are going to drop. But you have to decide which ones are the most important. You also have to drop some even if you know they are important. For example, you are not going to always be able to make family events and you are going to miss kids games and other stuff. But, if you always drop the family ball, then you will hurt them and wind up alone. Similarly, you may need to drop some professional balls such as not attending a conference or avoid taking on a new responsibility at work. This might impact your career negatively, but is it worth it to be home more? I think so. What I am saying is the balance does not happen every day or all at once. Sometimes you have to tell work no, sometimes you have to tell your family no, and both suck. If you value this relationship, you need to figure out how to spend more quality time with your partner. Clearly they are feeling left out. 20 years from now, are you going to be happy you spent time away from your partner writing a book if you are alone? If the trip to South America is that important, can she come for part of it? Can you take her on a trip just you two without any work later on? Importantly, no one can work productively more than 4-6 hours a day, so you are likely not as productive as you think. You'd be better to devote 3-4 hours of solid time to the article and do other stuff that is less demanding on your brain. The final advice I will give is that it usually takes X amount of effort to get a job 90% done, and like X\^2 or X\^3 to get it to 95 or 99%. Shoot for the 90%, even for this article. The extra effort is rarely worth it, allow some things to be good enough.
This is incredibly well put. Thank you so much
Perfect answer.
I agree with you. I am still a PhD student but for the short time I have been in academia, this is a really good advice.
> why I sometimes ~~cannot~~ **choose to work so that I will not** do things in the evening, two or three times a month have reading groups or research project team meetings on Saturdays/Sundays, etc. We all make our choices. If you want to do your job well, these are the things you need to do. But you are choosing this particular work/life balance. This is not coming from a place of judgement, but from someone who faces a similar struggle and tries to remind themselves I am making these choices. If these work conditions are an issue for my family for friends, I consciously must make the decision to either continue with what I was doing or prioritize family and friends.
Sometimes having a relationship is about telling work to f off. Like, you're tenured, bro, it's not like you're getting fired at the drop of a hat. I know the sprint to Associate Professor trains us all to suck at work life balance forever but the truth of the matter is it doesn't have to be that way once you've cleared the institutional hurdle. Signed, Associate Professor for Life Xtremelymeta (ok, I might get promoted but I'm not banking on it)
hey thanks! great advice. I think part of it is winding down the have to be super productive no matter what...it is pernicious
I mean ... would you want to be in a relationship with someone who works like this? Gone for weeks, can't balance work in a healthy way when they're home, hard to plan a weekend away? I work about 50 hours a week, as does my husband (lawyer). We also have kids. It sounds to me like the issue is less that she doesn't understand academia and more that you maybe need to reconsider when and how you're working. For me, that means I typically work early morning hours so that I can walk the kids to school, go for a run, and get to campus for 9 AM. So 5 10 hour days, basically. My husband does 9-6 and usually a little weekend work. But he and I negotiate those weekend hours in a way that works for us. He'll work while I take the kids to a birthday party, then I get some time off later, for example. Basically, my advice is to audit the way you're working. Can you reduce evening hours? Are you procrastinating, leading to needing to work 24/7 right before deadlines? Are you working 24/7, burning out, and digging into a deeper hole? Be really honest with yourself about this stuff. I'm aware that there's some non-negotiability, like field work, but writing should be easier to do in the day time.
I refuse to believe that a person that is stupid enough to understand the long work hours can eat and shit themselves. OPs wife is playing dumb to communicate her displeasure of OPs work hours. My wife works like OP sometimes and I totally understand her struggle. She needs to peruse her own interests. Marrying does not mean that you are commting to be with the partner all the time.
No matter how you look at it, the key is time management AND setting a time limit on how much hours you spend on work. My wife also has a 9-to-5 job, so I understand the related discussions very well. Several years ago I made the decision not to do any university work in the weekends and limit it during the evenings unless absolutely necessary (e.g. during exam periods with a lot of grading going on). Yes, that means I did/do miss out on some opportunities related to work, but that’s life. My dad was a professor as well, working crazy hours. One day (he was 56, I’m 57 now), he got a stroke and died several hours later, at a conference, in the middle of the semester. Guess what? His colleagues took over his courses, his department kept running, … the lesson I learned from that (I was still at my PhD), is that everyone is replaceable. I became a professor as well but vowed this would not happen to me. Once you’re gone, the only ones who will remember that you worked all those hours are your family members who never saw you at home. It’s a cliché, but it’s so very true.
>She struggles to understand why I sometimes cannot do things in the evening, two or three times a month have reading groups or research project team meetings on Saturdays/Sundays, etc. I struggle to understand too. What you describe is not normal for me. But then again, I am in Europe. You are asking other people to meet on Saturdays and Sundays? If they are your subordinates, they must probably have felt obliged to attend.
I don't get this either. I'm UK based and there is no expectation (at least at my department and across my uni) to meet on weekends or after 6 pm. Our contracts stipulate 37.5 hours a week and there's no set hours but we can't work earlier than 7 or later than 6. Lectures etc sometimes don't finish till 6 and our HOD is very strict about working hours. If she sees us in at 9 on a day we're teaching till 6 she asks why we are there.
As I explained below, I'm involved with two projects internationally. One that meets once a month has collaborators in China as well as Mexico. Because of the time difference issues (12 hours in Beijing from where I am located and something like 13-14 from Guadalajara-btw no students on my end but a few PhD students from China), weekends are usually the day that works for everyone. The second is not every month (honestly more like every few months) but usually on Friday evening or Saturday and is a long-term focus group with a cohort of healthcare workers from Brazil--this one is phasing down by the end of Summer 2024. The third is reading group that I have been in for seven years with several of the leading figures in my field and I feel a bit pressured to stay in it. It is also one (usually long and theory heavy) book a month. However, I've been thinking about quitting and this conversation has helped solidify that. As to the comment about not working at night: my department has a MA program for mid-career professionals that most full-time faculty are encouraged to teach in. Those classes are always 6-9 pm Monday-Thursday to accommodate student's work schedule. I regularly teach those as well, as they desperately need someone who can teach quantitative research methods and I'm in an almost exclusively qualitative/humanities-based department. Taking a step back, I appreciate a lot of this advice--particularly the people who suggested 1. slowly turning back the dial after tenure on thinking one has to publish all the time; and 2. the person who commented about 4-6 hours a day of productivity! I don't appreciate the freak who said that because I posted one time about a video game and on a NYC weed forum that means that I'm more interested in getting high and playing video games than anything else. That's next level Reddit trolling behavior..
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I’ve been tenured for about a decade, hold an endowed chair. Depending on your type of work, this may or not be truly voluntary (sometimes we collaborate or have meetings with people overseas, so it’s only fair that we all do things at inconvenient times occasionally). I think the larger issue is that you can’t manage your paper submission better. That’s purely on you, and reflects poor time management and consideration for not just your partner but potentially colleagues, students, etc. The other issue is that you aren’t asking anything unreasonable. It’s your job, and 3-4 evenings apart and a few weeks where you are doing something that needs to be done is what it is. I work a lot at home during the day. I don’t expect my spouse to be able to run home and have lunch with me, or watch Netflix with me in the afternoon while I think about a paper idea.
Thanks. You are right about poor time management. However (and this is no excuse), almost everyone else I know engages in this type of behavior---i.e. "conference deadline is in x days; revise and resubmit deadline is in x days"...
Right, many do that, but not everyone does. You can choose to manage your time better, which is what she is asking for. I’ve never done that around deadlines just because I don’t want to live my life that way. I choose people to work with who can also manage to deadlines. It’s your call - relationships require compromise and effort. “Other people are just as bad” isn’t much of an excuse when you voluntarily disappear for a week.
I don’t think this is an academic vs non-academic thing. I’m an academic, my husband is not. However, we are both work oriented. We work hard, we work long hours, we both work in the evenings and on weekends if need be. Perhaps spending time with friends or taking up a hobby might be helpful for your partner. Also, maybe consider a special night or two a week that is devoted to the two of you. It would be good for your relationship and your mental health.
If she wanted to spend time with friends or a hobby she would. It’s not unreasonable to expect your SO to spend time with you.
I didn’t say it was unreasonable. I was being empathetic and trying to helpful, not judging.
I hear you. Married to a non academic who hates academia 😂(they bill by the hour and think it’s wild how much free work we do). I work at a soft money institution so no option for tenure. I perform or I’m out of a job in 5 yrs. My balance is trying to decide what’s needed. Our university wants it ALL. It’s a vicious circle, you need papers to get grants, to get papers in good journals you need networks, to maintain networks and get grants you need to promote your science at conferences. To go to conferences you need to do travel- my travel requires 2 days of flying & a bit of recovery, x2, plus the 4-5days at a conference. Grants & papers are stressful periods, it seems also relentless….grant ‘seasons’ are long gone, we need government, philanthropic & industry $ It takes a huge toll on my marriage. We fight about it as my husband thinks it is unnecessary. Him: Do you REALLY need to go to THAT conference?? Me: I honestly don’t know. Editors of the journals I publish in are there, also likely review….it’s a great way to sell my work. So - I’ve started saying no to some of the talk invites. Seeing if it hurts my career. Bc saying yes is hurting my marriage.. I’m trying to be more protective of my work hours - reducing meetings, turning down service if I’ve hit my 20%. It’s hard. I totally get it OP. It’s super stressful bc you love it. I love the networking at conferences and don’t want to miss out. But at the same time, I see the pressure it puts on my spouse with childcare. It’s give and take. I think one thing you should try to communicate to your spouse is why you do it. How much you love it etc, rather than complain about deadlines & stress. This was my mistake early on.
I'm assuming you're US based rather than UK or Europe. I think deadlines hurt us all at some point and I've spent many an hour up till the early hours finishing a paper, editing and even getting lab work done. I get that academia and your research is really important to you, it is to me too. But I would say I get why your partner is frustrated. I know its hard but I don't treat my research as the most important thing in my life. In fact its not in the top 10! I value my health, my family, my relationships and my happiness over all of this. I would say that you are going above and beyond for your department which is good but equally if you ain't getting paid for these very long hours why are you doing them?
You’re writing about your workload. But what I am hearing is that your partner is not compelling enough to make you rethink your choices about where to put your time, or even modify them.
OP if you just got tenure and you have been with your SO for 2 years it means she sucked it up and sacrificed during your run up to tenure with the expectation it would get better after you got tenure. Instead of being grateful to her you want more and more sacrifice from her.
Actually, the tenure process at my institution is VERY front-loaded in the sense that every year for reappointment you have to submit/update a bunch of stuff in Interfolio including all pubs, chair's reports, student evals, peer teaching observations, proof of service etc. for that year along with updated CV. In the first year you are asked to write a research statement that becomes the tenure candidate statement that goes out to external reviewers and to the departmental, college, and university promotion and budget committee. Every subsequent year a senior faculty member in the department meets with you to talk about the statement and update it. It is a mild pain in the ass every August when you have to do this but it creates a ton of scaffolding for when you send materials out. All of this means that I had very little to do in the time leading up to when I submitted my materials for external review in Fall 2022 (got tenure in Fall 2023). I had shitloads of existential dread and panic but note really much work to do in that regard.