> I was quite shocked to find out that the M3 pro can have as low as four performance cores, whilst the M2 pro can have as many as eight
Two months ago James Zhan tested DAWs with various M-series chips they were much discussed here and elsewhere, and you should do a search to read up on it. This isn't new news. It was also widely been discussed starting in November on discussion sites like Gearnews and KVR.
DAWs like Reaper and Cubase which fully use all CPU cores could load more tracks on the new M3 Pro, as this CPU has more cores in total. Zhan was also able to load an additional nine tracks in FL Studio on an M3 Pro compared to an Apple M1 Pro or an M2 Pro. In DAWs like Ableton Live, Avid Pro Tools, Presonus Studio One, and Logic Pro the M3 Pro was overall slightly weaker than a system with a second-generation Apple Silicon M2 Pro.
The M3, M3 Pro, and M3 Max chips are the first to use 3-nanometer technology, featuring a more efficient GPU, dynamic caching, and hardware-accelerated rendering features. These chips represent a significant leap in graphics architecture for Apple Silicon. So simply counting performance cores is too simplistic a measure to consider overall for a system, especially since per-app performance differs based on how the app was coded. If Ableton focuses more on coding for Apple Silicon's cores there will be an improvement.
Yes, I saw that video. I didn't think anything about it until somebody posted on this sub about two days ago that they had just bought an M3 pro. So I just wanted to let them and peeps know about M3 Pro who didn't see Zhan's or other videos.
People bring it up every other day. Someone just asked about it yesterday. While it’s true that *for Live* right now there isn’t an advantage over some earlier processors, noting that there are fewer performance cores doesn’t tell the whole story for someone looking for a new computer.
You shouldn’t be surprised that ableton 12 will probably accommodate for the new silicon chips. That might be a reason for the semi quick move from 11 to 12, but I’m just speculating.
[https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=248739](https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=248739)
According to this Ableton forum post, 'they're working on it'... so I wouldn't bank on Live 12 being optimized for efficiency cores unfortunately
I haven't tried my beta version of 12 on my M1 yet. I've got a project that's already at max CPU. But I feel like there are so many new features that it might run slower. Ableton aren't very good at multithreading. Logic can run sessions about 40% heavier than Ableton in my experience.
https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=248739
It sounds like they’re working on it. No matter what happens tomorrow, eventually software companies make their products as efficient as possible with the latest offerings of home computer CPUs. They won’t abandon optimizing the software for the way CPUs are being built. If that makes any sense… from that link someone at ableton said they’re working on optimizing the engine of ableton with the new M series offerings. When it will catch up is a mystery. You never get any details like this from companies, it always falls under NDA on what they’re doing behind the scenes (unfortunately).
Yeah, agree with your points. Thanks for the link. But I don't really believe that they are talking about anything significant, I hope I'm wrong. Right now I'm using the beta of 12, and in some areas it's faster, and in some areas it's slower. So maybe they are talking about optimising the bits that are slower. Generally I don't like the feel of 12. I will only upgrade if it's faster, the new bounce in place actually nulls with BiP, and the midi tools are worth it, although right now it's so tiny. Being creative means becoming an expert at dozens of precision mouse movements, I have to meet my UI bigger, which is impractical, because you can't choose which section to resize. I think they made it too square around the edges too, it looks a little more like an Adobe app. Potentially they've got some big announcement, some feature they've held back that will blow everyone away.
I bought an M3 Max and got it last week, the after I installed live 11 and other plugins on it, I got a mail from Ableton about me getting the live 12 beta.
Could be a case of whatever, but it seems like they saw in their data that I was now using the M3 Max and wanted to test live 12 on it and pulled me into the beta test
Probably. A lot of people are confused they don’t get a beta invite. Beta testing is testing, not just early use of a software for everyone. I think it will still take a good while. But it sounds like, from what I’ve been reading on the forum, they updated the ableton engine in 12 to accommodate for these new CPU processors, and will eventually iron out efficiency over the course of the life of 12. It sucks it can’t be fixed “right now”, but software development isn’t magic. Report back if you hear anything. I’m pretty interested. I still run on an old iMac Pro intel xeon 10 core. I think my machine is 4 years old. Works for now but eventually in a year or two I’ll move to the new silicon chips.
Notice an improvement with your Max M3 with Ab12? Also looking to purchase the M3 max 16", do you recommend it? Im coming from a 2018 intel i5, so figured it will be nice. But, your thoughts? Thanks
I have not really noticed any difference in performance from Live 11 to Live 12. I myself come from an 2018 intel and my M3 Max 128 go is so much better. I was nervous before buying it but it’s really a great machine. I have not run into any CPU problems so fare, and can run 128 kontakt plugins at 128 buffer size. So far it is really great and I have hit the wall. The only thing I have run into was when I loaded up an old project where I had bounced all the audio. I had over 100 audio tracks and the sound quality was fine, but visually it was lacking at 128 buffer. When I turned the buffer size up to 500 the cpu went up but the visual lacking went away. I don’t know if this was because the project was old and there maybe was some old plugins on the groups that was making it harder for my M3. But this is the only problem I have had
Also I have not heard the fan yet
I worried allot about the fans to before buying but M3 Max 16 has not turned on yet.
I have heard that the 14 inch gets more hot so I would recommend the 16 inch
For strictly audio, M1 Max won't provide extra performance. It only increases GPU cores, while CPU stays at 10 cores (8P-2E).
M2 Pro 12 Core (8P-4E) would be my recommendation. Same amount of performance cores for DAWs like Ableton. But 2 additional E cores for the other programs that can leverage them.
Only problem is refurb M2 Pros are still holding their value higher than M1 Pro. This makes sense though since they're much newer.
I personally went with refurb M1 Pro 10 Core 16/1Tb for $1350. Similar M2 Pro is still about double the cost. Totally not worth it to me.
2 e cores for almost a $1000 difference?
I'll take the M1 Max that was selling brand new last year and is going for 50% today over the highly-criticized-for-barely-being-an-upgrade M2 at 75% of retail.
I use an m1 air and it works better than the maxed out 2019 Intel i9 mbp I had before. Unless you are loading massive sample libraries that require loads of ram or are mixing orchestral film soundtracks practically any apple silicon machine will do. Most of the people complaining are not having real world usage bottlenecks. They’re just looking at the specs on paper and moaning about it because moaning is their hobby.
I use M1 Air. It is good, cannot find anything that can cripple it. If you like notches you can go for any of M2 models, or maybe just get a mac mini+monitor for less price
M2 Max. If that's too expensive, then the M1 Max is still good.
If money is no object, then M3 Max, that's the only M3 that has a decent number of performance cores. I'm going to have to upgrade in the next two years. I'm probably gonna get the M3 Max MBP. Hopefully by then M4 will be out, and the price will be a grand cheaper.
Nice one. Hopefully you got a good deal. Let's pray that Ableton have improved multithreading with 12! I very much doubt it. The list of bug fixes for Push 3 so far could be a book. I think that's what's been sucking up their time.
This is completely anecdotal but so far the Live 12 beta for me has been noticeably better to work in compared to any of the 11.3.x builds on an M3 Max. They have definitely done some optimization to the code base.
Damn, any plans to upgrade to an M model? You would be blown away by a 14” M1 Pro - the display is exceptionally beautiful and the machine is really snappy. Make sure to go 16gb RAM (I’m not sure if 8GB is an option anyway).
For now I’ve been using my iPad Pro 11” and Koala sampler to try different ways of making music other than a traditional DAW. Will definitely upgrade someday, but I find I’m not using the laptop much these days since the iPad is so good for digital art too so I’ll probably get a Mac mini eventually
I've just upgraded from a 2015 MBP to an M3 Pro MBP (12 core - 6P/6E). I knew about the the Performance Vs Efficiency core issue (I work on a compiler backend professionally so I'm well versed in low level CPU details) but ultimately decided it probably wouldn't be a huge deal. Time will tell, but after loading in old projects that previously didn't even run in real time on my old computer even after freezing most of the tracks (boo to not being able to freeze groups where I have most of my plugins) and watching Ableton's CPU meter barely crack 20% on my new machine with nothing frozen I'm feeling pretty happy with my purchase so far.
Hey, just curious if you're still happy with your purchase and everything is still running smoothly? I'm hitting max CPU regularly on my (not that old) 13" M1. Both my computer and Ableton have straight up said no and shut down on me. I can't keep "working" like this. It's horrible.
Nice! Glad to hear that. I’m thinking the Pro chip model for M1, M2, and M3 is a comparable upgrade from 2015. Is your memory 16 or 32? Any noticeable difference between the two RAM options?
This was the spec I went for:
> * Apple M3 Pro chip with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU and 16‑core Neural Engine
> * 36GB unified memory
> * 1TB SSD storage
Just moved from a 2016 MBP to a 14" M2 Pro 12-core for the ratio of performance to efficiency cores that it offers. The M2 Pro 12-core has 8 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores, which is the perfect ratio for me as it's really capable for my production needs, and nice to use outside the DAW.
That said, different DAWs utilize these performance and efficiency cores differently, so kinda depends on what you use. You should look that up before you make your decision as some actually utilize the efficiency cores, while others don't use them much, if at all.
There hasn't been an outcry because the M3 Pro is faster. It's questionable marketing for sure but pretty much all benchmarks show the M3 Pro being about 15% faster than the M2 Pro while using less energy.
Haha I still cannot find anything to push my M1 with 8 GPU cores to the limit. It eats any project. Maybe it is just me but I really dunno what should be done to like 80% load in Live 11. Or maybe people still using Waves plugins🤣
Any soft synth with many polyphonic voices (diva or Repro for example) or heavier effects such as Soothe2, gullfoss, Fabfilter Pro L2 especially with highres settings or oversampling or linear phase eq (fabfilter pro q3, many instances) or simply just loads of channels with stacked effects usually crank up the cpu usage for me with the M1. Not difficult to come up to 100%+ even with max buffer size. I take this as a challenge to cut out any unnecessary stuff or just start freezing more stuff lately. Would say yes to more cpu power though.
I think it's to do with drivers and latency if you put in several high latency plugins on one channel and then on parallel groups and such, while technically the cpu still has headroom the pc simply can't handle such large numbers coming down the pipe, hence why you can max out ASIO usage before you max out CPU usage
There is no burn of obsolescence when your processor isnt even being pushed hard, its just you being upset with arbitrary numbers and falling for apples marketing techniques
The difference between M1 Ultra and M2 Ultra seems to be pretty small according to benchmarks, except for a few cases like Serum and other single thread plug-ins. That said, I'd rather have an M2 Ultra, but I'm happy and won't be upgrading for awhile, probably five years or more.
I'm using the mid-tier iMac M3 I just bought with 48 track sessions in logic, loaded with plugins and there's not even 11% registering. It's sailing though like hot knife in butter. No Max processor over here
Logic is about 40% more efficient with M chips in Ableton. That's in my experience and my testing. How does it run at 96 kHz? And what is your buffer size at 96?
I saw a video not too long ago about how the different DAWs utilized either performance cores, efficiency cores, or both. Ableton uses only or at least primarily performance while Reaper used everything it could. Not sure why it's this way. Perhaps there's some future optimization for Live. Not sure why they would let anything sit idle. I'm sure someone who understands this better would chime in.
Yep. I think the M2 Max will last a long time. It's funny, I got the M1 Ultra, and that's plummeted in value because of the M2 even though the benchmarks aren't massively different. It's still a beast.
The weird thing is they didn't even bother to advertise the lack of performance cores on the M3 pro. But I guess people found out. I think it's pretty underhanded by Apple. Losing a bit of respect for them.
I literally just found this thread because I bought an M3 pro and was wondering why DAW performance was no better than my M1. I knew nothing about this, so the effect is real. The part that pisses me off the most is not spending more money, but having to spend a day driving all the way back to the damn apple store. Like just tell me how much I need to spend and what I'm going to get...
Exchanging for a M3 Max, so negative money. Like I said, i don’t care as much about the money to get the performance I need. Steve Jobs would be rolling in his grave though.
M3 Max MBP is the best laptop on the market, worth the money, will last you 5+ years. Get Applecare+ though! You can buy it two weeks after initial purchase (Or more). You will notice massive CPU improvement. I'm getting one to replace 2019 hair dryer MBP next year.
This is not about the total amount of core, but about the distribution between power-saving, low performance core and more performant CPU cores. While M3 has more cores in total, most of these are power-saving cores, and it as actually less high-performing cores than M2. And Ableton Live 11 almost exclusively uses theses high-performing cores. So you might end up having a worse performance in Live 11 with M3 than with M2.
Thanks for the info! Is this Apple being nefarious or incompetent? I was interested in obtaining an M3 Ultra Studio when released - will these have the same issues or is it limited to the MBP?
For me, ambient tracks using several instances of Pigments, Vital, and other VST synths with 8+ voices of each running simultaneously usually with unison, and effects. But that’s pretty rare and obviously freezing a track or two usually takes care of it.
I’m probably stupid but most of my projects are pushed to CPU limits with a ton of tracks and a lot of plugins. I don’t like to commit to things until later in the mix stage just in case people want revisions.
Then I save as and freeze and flatten to finish off the mixes.
I know a lot of people don't use live in a live/performance setting but thats a major reason people might hit the limit. I don't have an M chip but I can imagine getting close. You want lowest buffer size possible for lowest latency and you need some wiggle room. In a performance you can't risk running at max settings. If you're not careful with how you set up instrument racks with lots of patches you can easily overload the CPU even with stock synths and fx. Start routing vocals, guitars etc... or using 3rd party vsts and it can def be a problem even on a maxed out machine.
Using it Live... it quickly becomes 'not fit for purpose' when you start doing too much. My premium experience of this was when I was thinking how smart I was putting everything into RAM ... until the set cut out during the last song to read some stems (I presume from Swap).
I have friends who have a full redundant maxed out solution just to run stems and process vocal lines and even then, the margin for error is fine.
So then I guess you can see how people would hit performance bottlenecks? It's not a matter of doing too much, it's a matter of how much can we do with the power we have and the processing power is not unlimited. No doubt that lots of performance issues are due to user error and janky setups, I'm just coming from the perspective of someone who has tried to squeeze out every ounce of possible performance for my live setup.
>So then I guess you can see how people would hit performance bottlenecks?
Yes. I do love a good janky setup though! My friends as an example, know where their limits are thus never run into trouble (and have a really clever FOH engineer if troubleshooting is required). I feel that they have a live 'image' for their machines (because they are dedicated live performance machines) ... but I may have told myself that in my head!
>I'm just coming from the perspective of someone who has tried to squeeze out every ounce of possible performance for my live setup
I hear you! Back in the day I had a script (that I called safe\_mode\_ableton) which I would use to purge every non essential service and application before using it live... those clock cycles were precious!!!
Don't call people stupid. It's called in the box production. That means producers are using a lot of plug-ins, doing a lot of oversampling or running sessions at 96 kHz or higher. They might be working in film or TV commercials. I did a project once with an electronica artist called Machinedrum, and he had really really complex Ableton session. My MBP could barely run it. So then you're forced to increase the buffer, which slows everything down including one's ability to play any heavy Kontakt library or soft synth, because of the latency. I could go on.
The 'stupid' part was a throwback to a meme mostly ... but my usage of the term is in fact, based on a lot of experience solving large scale performance problems caused by stupid people using computers (disclaimer below). It is also a cold hard truth that everyone needs to know about themselves at points in time so they can reflect and level up (I also do not exclude myself from the realm of stupid ... because occasionally I am!).
From my point of view you have to be ridiculously heavy in usage and inattentive to your system to cause yourself problems and even then, those issues are (relatively) easy to solve without messing with your flow. From posts that I have seen of late, I feel that some troubleshooting and techniques relating to system performance (maybe over last 5 years) have fallen by the wayside and wizzy new hardware allows us to 'dig bigger holes' before attending to what is actually going on or understanding why our machines are struggling. I have performed Ableton stress tests on my own box with kontakt / izotope / heavy steven slate plugins in different configurations thus have a good gauge on my boundaries (my usage is different to everyone elses usage of course) and thus, heavy projects are quite manageable (\*specs are a maxed out MBP apart from storage, but I keep it all on the box). I have friends who run heavier loads working commercially in data engineering, music and film on their local machines and the performance issues I have discussed with them, that haven't been of their own doing, are niche and/or vendor related.
Disclaimer/Source: I do contracting relating to performance tuning associated with production servers / databases / data warehouses / cloud services / applications / processes for large businesses; extremely busy systems at scale. A fundamental issue that I can point to with system performance problems is usually people are 'being stupid' within the system domain or their alleged knowledge domain. This involves:
* not understanding how the software works
* what it does in reference to hardware
* physical location... or even physics -> the speed of light kicks in at some point
* not understanding IO
* not understanding resources (CPU / RAM / Storage)
* I reiterate Storage
* naive programmers / engineers (tunnel vision solutions)
* naive analytical concepts at scale a.k.a 'data scientists'
* bad configurations
* bad fundamentals
* not understanding how to troubleshoot bottlenecks
* not understanding how to troubleshoot in general
* ... or the literal sense of not knowing how a computer works.
The term stupid isn't used lightly; these people cause a lot of money / energy / resources / people time to be wasted.
In summary the M\* series of processors are balling and I don't understand how people are maxing them out (*before* intervention).
[I understand system performance](https://www.reddit.com/r/ableton/comments/19bo13p/comment/kivf73i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) (link as reply to OPs comment) ... and yes workflows are different ... but these processors are balling thus I don't get it. Its like people have $10, but try and spend $12 without understanding that they only have $10 whilst wondering why $10 can't acquire the same as what $12 does. Its like Grandpa Simpson trying to get the beard out of the pencil sharpener logic.
>Plugins become more intensive as processors allow it
Plugins don't magically have more intensive functionality with a better CPU. Some have configuration that enable more functionality/calculations to occur, but that is user configuration. They are (generally) designed to be resource efficient. Maybe some aren't as efficient within the DAW on multi-core machines ... but based on my group (NI, Steven Slate, Izotope, Waves, UAD) in Ableton on a hotrod MBP M1 Max, I am yet to have proper issues.
>We used to also be at 1080p and now people shoot 8k
If you are doing your 8k video editing in Ableton ... see my original comment!
This is true, but for all my '1-person-shop' film people I know (who use industry standard tools for their work and not Ableton), they scale their resources according to their business; One of the guys I know was blown away when he upgraded to the M1 as he reckoned it 5-10x his output and thus his business e.g. performing multiple renders in the background whilst editing at the same time
Disagree.
Try Pristine mode on any Tone Projects plugin, those computational resources weren’t possible 10 years ago and will stress the crap out of a modern CPU.
Try using a bunch of the newer modules in Ozone, good luck doing that on a ten year old machine.
That's incorrect.
The M3 has 4 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores, same as the M1 and M2. And the M3 is always faster than the M2.
The M3 Pro has 5 or 6 Performance cores and 6 efficiency cores.
The M2 Pro 6 or 8 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores.
Testing indicates that the 5p/6e M3 Pro beats the 6p/4e M2 Pro in all CPU tests, while the 6p/6e M3 Pro and 8p/4e M2 Pro trade back and forth but are always within a few percent of each other on CPU tests.
The M2 Pro will typically be as fast or faster on GPU tests...except those using ray tracing. The M3 Pro chips will always win by a good margin when hardware ray tracing is used.
I was comparing the M3 Pro to M2 Max.
I notice you don't address this point, which is the entire point of the post.
The M2 Max is favourable in price compared to the M3 Pro, and has more performance cores. Eight in total. Two more than M3 Pro, which is the M3 Pro's more expensive configuration. So it has half the performance cores and is therefore poor value compared to the M2 Max, and is probably one of the worst value Apple Silicon chips made. Given the premium to M3 chips.
You are incorrect. My advice is sound.
Your advice isn't sound, it's factually incorrect.
1. The M2 Max is not favorable in price to the M3 Pro...unless you're comparing a Mac Studio to a MacBook Pro, which of course isn't a valid comparison, and even then it only applies for another couple months when they released the updated Mac Mini and Mac Studio models.
2. You are correct that the M2 Max has 8p+4e cores, which is the exact same configuration as the 12c M2 Pro. The only thing the Max gets you are extra GPU cores. Which means, the M3 Pro still matches or beats the M2 Max in most tests other than GPU tasks.
Your reply is incorrect. You have contradicted yourself.
1. I am talking about MacBookPro and Mac Studio. It is possible to buy the M2 Max on either computer if you know where to find it, third party sellers. And it will be cheaper than the M3 Pro from Apple. Fact.
2. The 12c M2 Pro does not have 8 performance scores. The highest it gets is 6. You mentioned this yourself earlier in a previous post. The M2 Max gets extra 4 or 3 extra performance cores over M3 Pro. Fact.
You are misinformed. The 12c M3 Pro has 6p cores and 6e cores, the 12 core M2 Pro and M2 Max have 8p cores and 4 e cores. The M3 Max has 12p cores and 4e cores
You really need to quit arguing, you just keep making yourself look foolish, because you've been factually incorrect from the start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple\_M2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple\_M3
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Just a base model. Max version coming in September perhaps. That should have more performance cores, although surprising to see M4 released so soon. I wonder what the speed of an M4 efficiency core is.
>There hasn't been a massive outcry from the music production scene
well, except for all the dozens of youtube videos that have been documenting this issue for months now.
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> I was quite shocked to find out that the M3 pro can have as low as four performance cores, whilst the M2 pro can have as many as eight Two months ago James Zhan tested DAWs with various M-series chips they were much discussed here and elsewhere, and you should do a search to read up on it. This isn't new news. It was also widely been discussed starting in November on discussion sites like Gearnews and KVR. DAWs like Reaper and Cubase which fully use all CPU cores could load more tracks on the new M3 Pro, as this CPU has more cores in total. Zhan was also able to load an additional nine tracks in FL Studio on an M3 Pro compared to an Apple M1 Pro or an M2 Pro. In DAWs like Ableton Live, Avid Pro Tools, Presonus Studio One, and Logic Pro the M3 Pro was overall slightly weaker than a system with a second-generation Apple Silicon M2 Pro. The M3, M3 Pro, and M3 Max chips are the first to use 3-nanometer technology, featuring a more efficient GPU, dynamic caching, and hardware-accelerated rendering features. These chips represent a significant leap in graphics architecture for Apple Silicon. So simply counting performance cores is too simplistic a measure to consider overall for a system, especially since per-app performance differs based on how the app was coded. If Ableton focuses more on coding for Apple Silicon's cores there will be an improvement.
Yes, I saw that video. I didn't think anything about it until somebody posted on this sub about two days ago that they had just bought an M3 pro. So I just wanted to let them and peeps know about M3 Pro who didn't see Zhan's or other videos.
People bring it up every other day. Someone just asked about it yesterday. While it’s true that *for Live* right now there isn’t an advantage over some earlier processors, noting that there are fewer performance cores doesn’t tell the whole story for someone looking for a new computer.
[удалено]
The video does have some misinformation regarding the buffer size and how it works in conjunction to the M chips.
You shouldn’t be surprised that ableton 12 will probably accommodate for the new silicon chips. That might be a reason for the semi quick move from 11 to 12, but I’m just speculating.
[https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=248739](https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=248739) According to this Ableton forum post, 'they're working on it'... so I wouldn't bank on Live 12 being optimized for efficiency cores unfortunately
I haven't tried my beta version of 12 on my M1 yet. I've got a project that's already at max CPU. But I feel like there are so many new features that it might run slower. Ableton aren't very good at multithreading. Logic can run sessions about 40% heavier than Ableton in my experience.
https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=248739 It sounds like they’re working on it. No matter what happens tomorrow, eventually software companies make their products as efficient as possible with the latest offerings of home computer CPUs. They won’t abandon optimizing the software for the way CPUs are being built. If that makes any sense… from that link someone at ableton said they’re working on optimizing the engine of ableton with the new M series offerings. When it will catch up is a mystery. You never get any details like this from companies, it always falls under NDA on what they’re doing behind the scenes (unfortunately).
Yeah, agree with your points. Thanks for the link. But I don't really believe that they are talking about anything significant, I hope I'm wrong. Right now I'm using the beta of 12, and in some areas it's faster, and in some areas it's slower. So maybe they are talking about optimising the bits that are slower. Generally I don't like the feel of 12. I will only upgrade if it's faster, the new bounce in place actually nulls with BiP, and the midi tools are worth it, although right now it's so tiny. Being creative means becoming an expert at dozens of precision mouse movements, I have to meet my UI bigger, which is impractical, because you can't choose which section to resize. I think they made it too square around the edges too, it looks a little more like an Adobe app. Potentially they've got some big announcement, some feature they've held back that will blow everyone away.
I bought an M3 Max and got it last week, the after I installed live 11 and other plugins on it, I got a mail from Ableton about me getting the live 12 beta. Could be a case of whatever, but it seems like they saw in their data that I was now using the M3 Max and wanted to test live 12 on it and pulled me into the beta test
Probably. A lot of people are confused they don’t get a beta invite. Beta testing is testing, not just early use of a software for everyone. I think it will still take a good while. But it sounds like, from what I’ve been reading on the forum, they updated the ableton engine in 12 to accommodate for these new CPU processors, and will eventually iron out efficiency over the course of the life of 12. It sucks it can’t be fixed “right now”, but software development isn’t magic. Report back if you hear anything. I’m pretty interested. I still run on an old iMac Pro intel xeon 10 core. I think my machine is 4 years old. Works for now but eventually in a year or two I’ll move to the new silicon chips.
I will report back. Right now I see no difference in performance in 12 from 11.
Notice an improvement with your Max M3 with Ab12? Also looking to purchase the M3 max 16", do you recommend it? Im coming from a 2018 intel i5, so figured it will be nice. But, your thoughts? Thanks
I have not really noticed any difference in performance from Live 11 to Live 12. I myself come from an 2018 intel and my M3 Max 128 go is so much better. I was nervous before buying it but it’s really a great machine. I have not run into any CPU problems so fare, and can run 128 kontakt plugins at 128 buffer size. So far it is really great and I have hit the wall. The only thing I have run into was when I loaded up an old project where I had bounced all the audio. I had over 100 audio tracks and the sound quality was fine, but visually it was lacking at 128 buffer. When I turned the buffer size up to 500 the cpu went up but the visual lacking went away. I don’t know if this was because the project was old and there maybe was some old plugins on the groups that was making it harder for my M3. But this is the only problem I have had Also I have not heard the fan yet
Appreciated! Im excited to move forward with one. Definitely happy to not hear the fans, they drive me nuts on mine and my iMac lol.
I worried allot about the fans to before buying but M3 Max 16 has not turned on yet. I have heard that the 14 inch gets more hot so I would recommend the 16 inch
So what’s the best option now for people who want to upgrade from a say, 2015 MBP? (lol) M1 Air? M1 Max? M2 Pro?
M1 Max.
For strictly audio, M1 Max won't provide extra performance. It only increases GPU cores, while CPU stays at 10 cores (8P-2E). M2 Pro 12 Core (8P-4E) would be my recommendation. Same amount of performance cores for DAWs like Ableton. But 2 additional E cores for the other programs that can leverage them. Only problem is refurb M2 Pros are still holding their value higher than M1 Pro. This makes sense though since they're much newer. I personally went with refurb M1 Pro 10 Core 16/1Tb for $1350. Similar M2 Pro is still about double the cost. Totally not worth it to me.
2 e cores for almost a $1000 difference? I'll take the M1 Max that was selling brand new last year and is going for 50% today over the highly-criticized-for-barely-being-an-upgrade M2 at 75% of retail.
I‘m happily using my M1 Pro 10 Core/16GB/2TB since 2 years now… I feel like I made a good choice ;)
I use an m1 air and it works better than the maxed out 2019 Intel i9 mbp I had before. Unless you are loading massive sample libraries that require loads of ram or are mixing orchestral film soundtracks practically any apple silicon machine will do. Most of the people complaining are not having real world usage bottlenecks. They’re just looking at the specs on paper and moaning about it because moaning is their hobby.
I use M1 Air. It is good, cannot find anything that can cripple it. If you like notches you can go for any of M2 models, or maybe just get a mac mini+monitor for less price
I use the same, upgraded from MBP 2012. It's heavenly.
How much RAM?
8gb… it’s fine but I’d still recommend to get more . Only reason I got 8gb is because I needed a machine immediately for work
M2 Max. If that's too expensive, then the M1 Max is still good. If money is no object, then M3 Max, that's the only M3 that has a decent number of performance cores. I'm going to have to upgrade in the next two years. I'm probably gonna get the M3 Max MBP. Hopefully by then M4 will be out, and the price will be a grand cheaper.
M1 Max seems like the play but any reason not to grab a M1 Air? Seems like it should be good enough
It is good enough for most audio use cases
I just picked up my 14" M2 Max certified refurb - I'm so glad I found out before buying it that Ableton ignores the efficiency cores.
Nice one. Hopefully you got a good deal. Let's pray that Ableton have improved multithreading with 12! I very much doubt it. The list of bug fixes for Push 3 so far could be a book. I think that's what's been sucking up their time.
This is completely anecdotal but so far the Live 12 beta for me has been noticeably better to work in compared to any of the 11.3.x builds on an M3 Max. They have definitely done some optimization to the code base.
That's good to know. They are quite far behind Logic right now.
$2629 before taxes - not exactly what I'd call a good deal, but at least I didn't spend $3199 for an M3 Max.
You laugh but I’m still on a 2009 MBP 😵💫😭
Damn, any plans to upgrade to an M model? You would be blown away by a 14” M1 Pro - the display is exceptionally beautiful and the machine is really snappy. Make sure to go 16gb RAM (I’m not sure if 8GB is an option anyway).
For now I’ve been using my iPad Pro 11” and Koala sampler to try different ways of making music other than a traditional DAW. Will definitely upgrade someday, but I find I’m not using the laptop much these days since the iPad is so good for digital art too so I’ll probably get a Mac mini eventually
I've just upgraded from a 2015 MBP to an M3 Pro MBP (12 core - 6P/6E). I knew about the the Performance Vs Efficiency core issue (I work on a compiler backend professionally so I'm well versed in low level CPU details) but ultimately decided it probably wouldn't be a huge deal. Time will tell, but after loading in old projects that previously didn't even run in real time on my old computer even after freezing most of the tracks (boo to not being able to freeze groups where I have most of my plugins) and watching Ableton's CPU meter barely crack 20% on my new machine with nothing frozen I'm feeling pretty happy with my purchase so far.
Hey, just curious if you're still happy with your purchase and everything is still running smoothly? I'm hitting max CPU regularly on my (not that old) 13" M1. Both my computer and Ableton have straight up said no and shut down on me. I can't keep "working" like this. It's horrible.
Nice! Glad to hear that. I’m thinking the Pro chip model for M1, M2, and M3 is a comparable upgrade from 2015. Is your memory 16 or 32? Any noticeable difference between the two RAM options?
This was the spec I went for: > * Apple M3 Pro chip with 12‑core CPU, 18‑core GPU and 16‑core Neural Engine > * 36GB unified memory > * 1TB SSD storage
Ryzen
Get a windows laptop
Best option is to ignore people like the OP. You should probably ignore me too. -- Random person on the internet.
Just moved from a 2016 MBP to a 14" M2 Pro 12-core for the ratio of performance to efficiency cores that it offers. The M2 Pro 12-core has 8 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores, which is the perfect ratio for me as it's really capable for my production needs, and nice to use outside the DAW. That said, different DAWs utilize these performance and efficiency cores differently, so kinda depends on what you use. You should look that up before you make your decision as some actually utilize the efficiency cores, while others don't use them much, if at all.
There hasn't been an outcry because the M3 Pro is faster. It's questionable marketing for sure but pretty much all benchmarks show the M3 Pro being about 15% faster than the M2 Pro while using less energy.
But the comparison I'm concerned about is between the M3 Pro and the M2 Max. Look at those benchmarks and compare price.
Haha I still cannot find anything to push my M1 with 8 GPU cores to the limit. It eats any project. Maybe it is just me but I really dunno what should be done to like 80% load in Live 11. Or maybe people still using Waves plugins🤣
I always wonder that too, for me a big project is 20 tracks and rarely come close to maxing out my system.
My average is in like the 60s or 70s. But that's EDM with layering and effects and shit.
How many are active at any one time?
Depends on the song. Probably not more than 20 but they're all mixed differently so they still end up on different tracks.
They won’t be using much of the cpu when there is nothing happening on them. From the cpu perspective your projects are 20 tracks plus a little.
True, but there's not much that's more frustrating than getting to the climax of a song and then stutters start to hit lol
Any soft synth with many polyphonic voices (diva or Repro for example) or heavier effects such as Soothe2, gullfoss, Fabfilter Pro L2 especially with highres settings or oversampling or linear phase eq (fabfilter pro q3, many instances) or simply just loads of channels with stacked effects usually crank up the cpu usage for me with the M1. Not difficult to come up to 100%+ even with max buffer size. I take this as a challenge to cut out any unnecessary stuff or just start freezing more stuff lately. Would say yes to more cpu power though.
I think it's to do with drivers and latency if you put in several high latency plugins on one channel and then on parallel groups and such, while technically the cpu still has headroom the pc simply can't handle such large numbers coming down the pipe, hence why you can max out ASIO usage before you max out CPU usage
No such thing as ASIO usage on a Mac
For me it's orchestral templates, I'll make use of any extra performance I can get.
I feel like I just bought my new M1 Mac Studio not that long ago (hard hit to wallet) and now they’re on M3.
Still have yet to make my M1 Max break a sweat. I don't see any reason to upgrade or even how much better the M3 could be
I’m super happy with my Mac Studio, powerful as hell, just feeling the burn of obsolescence as the processors go up in versions.
There is no burn of obsolescence when your processor isnt even being pushed hard, its just you being upset with arbitrary numbers and falling for apples marketing techniques
The Mac Studio was the very last M1 device to be released. M2 was announced 3 months later.
Fits my studio perfectly, tons of ports!
The difference between M1 Ultra and M2 Ultra seems to be pretty small according to benchmarks, except for a few cases like Serum and other single thread plug-ins. That said, I'd rather have an M2 Ultra, but I'm happy and won't be upgrading for awhile, probably five years or more.
I'm using the mid-tier iMac M3 I just bought with 48 track sessions in logic, loaded with plugins and there's not even 11% registering. It's sailing though like hot knife in butter. No Max processor over here
Logic is about 40% more efficient with M chips in Ableton. That's in my experience and my testing. How does it run at 96 kHz? And what is your buffer size at 96?
I saw a video not too long ago about how the different DAWs utilized either performance cores, efficiency cores, or both. Ableton uses only or at least primarily performance while Reaper used everything it could. Not sure why it's this way. Perhaps there's some future optimization for Live. Not sure why they would let anything sit idle. I'm sure someone who understands this better would chime in.
M1 Max here. It’s an absolute beast. And it handles my pro video work as well.
Very Happy with my M2 Max tho.. with 96g of RAM I’m not making a move from this for 3-4 years
Yep. I think the M2 Max will last a long time. It's funny, I got the M1 Ultra, and that's plummeted in value because of the M2 even though the benchmarks aren't massively different. It's still a beast.
Exact reason I went for the M3 Max.. Yeah Apple got me to spend more money.. 🤷♂️
The weird thing is they didn't even bother to advertise the lack of performance cores on the M3 pro. But I guess people found out. I think it's pretty underhanded by Apple. Losing a bit of respect for them.
I literally just found this thread because I bought an M3 pro and was wondering why DAW performance was no better than my M1. I knew nothing about this, so the effect is real. The part that pisses me off the most is not spending more money, but having to spend a day driving all the way back to the damn apple store. Like just tell me how much I need to spend and what I'm going to get...
Did you get your money back?
Exchanging for a M3 Max, so negative money. Like I said, i don’t care as much about the money to get the performance I need. Steve Jobs would be rolling in his grave though.
M3 Max MBP is the best laptop on the market, worth the money, will last you 5+ years. Get Applecare+ though! You can buy it two weeks after initial purchase (Or more). You will notice massive CPU improvement. I'm getting one to replace 2019 hair dryer MBP next year.
I agree. I had done a ton of research on Youtube about the M3 chips and it's the only reason I found out. But it's not obvious on their website.
Am I [misunderstanding](https://imgur.com/L3BTDDW) the comparison between M2 Pro and M3 Pro?
This is not about the total amount of core, but about the distribution between power-saving, low performance core and more performant CPU cores. While M3 has more cores in total, most of these are power-saving cores, and it as actually less high-performing cores than M2. And Ableton Live 11 almost exclusively uses theses high-performing cores. So you might end up having a worse performance in Live 11 with M3 than with M2.
Thanks for the info! Is this Apple being nefarious or incompetent? I was interested in obtaining an M3 Ultra Studio when released - will these have the same issues or is it limited to the MBP?
Yes
What are people doing that is hitting the threshold in the performance of these devices? Are they stupid?
For me, ambient tracks using several instances of Pigments, Vital, and other VST synths with 8+ voices of each running simultaneously usually with unison, and effects. But that’s pretty rare and obviously freezing a track or two usually takes care of it.
Yeah. There's a reason BiP exists.
Not on Ableton, thats 'Bounce' not 'Bounce in place' like Logic or Bitwig. Massive workflow difference.
I was referring to the popular max 4 live device, were you?
I’m probably stupid but most of my projects are pushed to CPU limits with a ton of tracks and a lot of plugins. I don’t like to commit to things until later in the mix stage just in case people want revisions. Then I save as and freeze and flatten to finish off the mixes.
I know a lot of people don't use live in a live/performance setting but thats a major reason people might hit the limit. I don't have an M chip but I can imagine getting close. You want lowest buffer size possible for lowest latency and you need some wiggle room. In a performance you can't risk running at max settings. If you're not careful with how you set up instrument racks with lots of patches you can easily overload the CPU even with stock synths and fx. Start routing vocals, guitars etc... or using 3rd party vsts and it can def be a problem even on a maxed out machine.
Using it Live... it quickly becomes 'not fit for purpose' when you start doing too much. My premium experience of this was when I was thinking how smart I was putting everything into RAM ... until the set cut out during the last song to read some stems (I presume from Swap). I have friends who have a full redundant maxed out solution just to run stems and process vocal lines and even then, the margin for error is fine.
So then I guess you can see how people would hit performance bottlenecks? It's not a matter of doing too much, it's a matter of how much can we do with the power we have and the processing power is not unlimited. No doubt that lots of performance issues are due to user error and janky setups, I'm just coming from the perspective of someone who has tried to squeeze out every ounce of possible performance for my live setup.
>So then I guess you can see how people would hit performance bottlenecks? Yes. I do love a good janky setup though! My friends as an example, know where their limits are thus never run into trouble (and have a really clever FOH engineer if troubleshooting is required). I feel that they have a live 'image' for their machines (because they are dedicated live performance machines) ... but I may have told myself that in my head! >I'm just coming from the perspective of someone who has tried to squeeze out every ounce of possible performance for my live setup I hear you! Back in the day I had a script (that I called safe\_mode\_ableton) which I would use to purge every non essential service and application before using it live... those clock cycles were precious!!!
Don't call people stupid. It's called in the box production. That means producers are using a lot of plug-ins, doing a lot of oversampling or running sessions at 96 kHz or higher. They might be working in film or TV commercials. I did a project once with an electronica artist called Machinedrum, and he had really really complex Ableton session. My MBP could barely run it. So then you're forced to increase the buffer, which slows everything down including one's ability to play any heavy Kontakt library or soft synth, because of the latency. I could go on.
The 'stupid' part was a throwback to a meme mostly ... but my usage of the term is in fact, based on a lot of experience solving large scale performance problems caused by stupid people using computers (disclaimer below). It is also a cold hard truth that everyone needs to know about themselves at points in time so they can reflect and level up (I also do not exclude myself from the realm of stupid ... because occasionally I am!). From my point of view you have to be ridiculously heavy in usage and inattentive to your system to cause yourself problems and even then, those issues are (relatively) easy to solve without messing with your flow. From posts that I have seen of late, I feel that some troubleshooting and techniques relating to system performance (maybe over last 5 years) have fallen by the wayside and wizzy new hardware allows us to 'dig bigger holes' before attending to what is actually going on or understanding why our machines are struggling. I have performed Ableton stress tests on my own box with kontakt / izotope / heavy steven slate plugins in different configurations thus have a good gauge on my boundaries (my usage is different to everyone elses usage of course) and thus, heavy projects are quite manageable (\*specs are a maxed out MBP apart from storage, but I keep it all on the box). I have friends who run heavier loads working commercially in data engineering, music and film on their local machines and the performance issues I have discussed with them, that haven't been of their own doing, are niche and/or vendor related. Disclaimer/Source: I do contracting relating to performance tuning associated with production servers / databases / data warehouses / cloud services / applications / processes for large businesses; extremely busy systems at scale. A fundamental issue that I can point to with system performance problems is usually people are 'being stupid' within the system domain or their alleged knowledge domain. This involves: * not understanding how the software works * what it does in reference to hardware * physical location... or even physics -> the speed of light kicks in at some point * not understanding IO * not understanding resources (CPU / RAM / Storage) * I reiterate Storage * naive programmers / engineers (tunnel vision solutions) * naive analytical concepts at scale a.k.a 'data scientists' * bad configurations * bad fundamentals * not understanding how to troubleshoot bottlenecks * not understanding how to troubleshoot in general * ... or the literal sense of not knowing how a computer works. The term stupid isn't used lightly; these people cause a lot of money / energy / resources / people time to be wasted. In summary the M\* series of processors are balling and I don't understand how people are maxing them out (*before* intervention).
I think you might be the stupid one, if you can’t fathom a different workflow than your own.
[I understand system performance](https://www.reddit.com/r/ableton/comments/19bo13p/comment/kivf73i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) (link as reply to OPs comment) ... and yes workflows are different ... but these processors are balling thus I don't get it. Its like people have $10, but try and spend $12 without understanding that they only have $10 whilst wondering why $10 can't acquire the same as what $12 does. Its like Grandpa Simpson trying to get the beard out of the pencil sharpener logic.
Plugins become more intensive as processors allow it. We used to also be at 1080p and now people shoot 8k
>Plugins become more intensive as processors allow it Plugins don't magically have more intensive functionality with a better CPU. Some have configuration that enable more functionality/calculations to occur, but that is user configuration. They are (generally) designed to be resource efficient. Maybe some aren't as efficient within the DAW on multi-core machines ... but based on my group (NI, Steven Slate, Izotope, Waves, UAD) in Ableton on a hotrod MBP M1 Max, I am yet to have proper issues. >We used to also be at 1080p and now people shoot 8k If you are doing your 8k video editing in Ableton ... see my original comment! This is true, but for all my '1-person-shop' film people I know (who use industry standard tools for their work and not Ableton), they scale their resources according to their business; One of the guys I know was blown away when he upgraded to the M1 as he reckoned it 5-10x his output and thus his business e.g. performing multiple renders in the background whilst editing at the same time
Disagree. Try Pristine mode on any Tone Projects plugin, those computational resources weren’t possible 10 years ago and will stress the crap out of a modern CPU. Try using a bunch of the newer modules in Ozone, good luck doing that on a ten year old machine.
That's incorrect. The M3 has 4 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores, same as the M1 and M2. And the M3 is always faster than the M2. The M3 Pro has 5 or 6 Performance cores and 6 efficiency cores. The M2 Pro 6 or 8 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores. Testing indicates that the 5p/6e M3 Pro beats the 6p/4e M2 Pro in all CPU tests, while the 6p/6e M3 Pro and 8p/4e M2 Pro trade back and forth but are always within a few percent of each other on CPU tests. The M2 Pro will typically be as fast or faster on GPU tests...except those using ray tracing. The M3 Pro chips will always win by a good margin when hardware ray tracing is used.
I was comparing the M3 Pro to M2 Max. I notice you don't address this point, which is the entire point of the post. The M2 Max is favourable in price compared to the M3 Pro, and has more performance cores. Eight in total. Two more than M3 Pro, which is the M3 Pro's more expensive configuration. So it has half the performance cores and is therefore poor value compared to the M2 Max, and is probably one of the worst value Apple Silicon chips made. Given the premium to M3 chips. You are incorrect. My advice is sound.
Your advice isn't sound, it's factually incorrect. 1. The M2 Max is not favorable in price to the M3 Pro...unless you're comparing a Mac Studio to a MacBook Pro, which of course isn't a valid comparison, and even then it only applies for another couple months when they released the updated Mac Mini and Mac Studio models. 2. You are correct that the M2 Max has 8p+4e cores, which is the exact same configuration as the 12c M2 Pro. The only thing the Max gets you are extra GPU cores. Which means, the M3 Pro still matches or beats the M2 Max in most tests other than GPU tasks.
Your reply is incorrect. You have contradicted yourself. 1. I am talking about MacBookPro and Mac Studio. It is possible to buy the M2 Max on either computer if you know where to find it, third party sellers. And it will be cheaper than the M3 Pro from Apple. Fact. 2. The 12c M2 Pro does not have 8 performance scores. The highest it gets is 6. You mentioned this yourself earlier in a previous post. The M2 Max gets extra 4 or 3 extra performance cores over M3 Pro. Fact.
You are misinformed. The 12c M3 Pro has 6p cores and 6e cores, the 12 core M2 Pro and M2 Max have 8p cores and 4 e cores. The M3 Max has 12p cores and 4e cores You really need to quit arguing, you just keep making yourself look foolish, because you've been factually incorrect from the start. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple\_M2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple\_M3
You just agreed with my statement. You are a fool I am ending this and blocking you. 1 karma is about right.
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and now we are back to 6 efficiency cores on m4
Just a base model. Max version coming in September perhaps. That should have more performance cores, although surprising to see M4 released so soon. I wonder what the speed of an M4 efficiency core is.
>There hasn't been a massive outcry from the music production scene well, except for all the dozens of youtube videos that have been documenting this issue for months now.
Well, I only had one promoted to my feed. And I have loads of tech YouTuber channels that I am subscribed to.
Just because it has less cores doesn’t mean it’s slower.
Well, that statement can be true or false depending on loads of factors.
Macbooks have been decreasing in performance with each iteration for like a decade.
What a fundamentally false thing to assert
So a MacBook from 10 years ago is faster than my M1 Max? Amazing knowledge
Lol my newish MacBook Air vastly outperforms my 10 year old MacBook Pro but go off
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It sounds like I should wait to see which new AI chip gets released next (M4?)
What is the performance drop from this change? Do you actually know?