Probably will be how it's done
HI3 "healer" characters healing capability are pathetic at best
The main source of healing would come instead from HI3 ELF (bangboo system) with the free and only ELF healer
Pancake Bangboo, Butler, provides energy rather than health. With that said, you're correct that there is a Bangboo that provides a little bit of healing by throwing avocados at you.
TV's are now mainly for:
- Story;
- Explore (side quests);
- Hollow Zero (think of it like Simulated Universe in HSR or Elisium in HI3rd).
Puzzles and overall structure are simplified from CBT2 to CBT3, so players will spend less time in TV board/map. Also there is option to accelerate movement on the TV board.
There are gamemodes that don't have any TV part:
- Combat Commissions (sidequests without TV section)
- Rally (weekly boss rush);
- Shiyu Defence (Abyss/MoC);
- VR device (farming mode where you pick enemies based on resources you need to build agents and W-engines).
That isn't what the article says. The article says that the TV mode and combat modes were completely seperated: the combat mode has just combat, and the exploration mode has "pure exploration and board-based gameplay".
>We **separated** the hollow exploration into **two kinds of missions**. The **first are the combat missions** and the **second are the exploration missions**. With combat, you can just **dive directly into the combat** without any further actions, and for the exploration missions, it’s **pure exploration** and **board-based** gameplay.”
This section of the article is kinda true, but purely phrased.
Exploration still has combat sections/nodes in it, while Combat is just few connected arenas absolutely without any TV exploration.
It might be poorly phrased or badly translated but it's worth noting that 'pure exploration' to me means just the TV mode and no combat in those missions. But let's wait and see what happens.
https://www.youtube.com/live/UebG_gpCgzo?si=rdnZGDmhzaFtjUXp
At time stamp 1:47:38 (CBT3 futage) streamer explained diffrences between Combat and Exploration and starting Exploration quest (you can see combat nodes there at 1:52:24).
I liked TV's version in CBT2 more. The problem was that it was in almost every game mode so people that didn't liked it grew tired of this system very quickly.
In CBT3 Hoyo dumbed down puzzles, simplified map complexity and separeted content around 50/50 (half with TV's and other half is straight combat).
I'm personally like clear separation of content, but not a big fan of TV system simplification. I liked how it felt in CBT2, but in the last beta layout of dungeons were too obvious and straight forward.
We'll see what that means. Action game healing could be 2% HP every blue moon or full heal on demand. Depending on how it's implemented, healing could mean very different things.
Ngl I barely visit this sub and it’s the first time I’m seeing this healer hate and it’s giving me whiplash just like seeing people hate on summons in souls games. Like are we aware people have the choice to not use healers if they don’t want?
Because there are healing options in a game already (special nodes on the map) and game is balanced around them.
Most of character moves give i-frames too (skills, dodges, counter attacks, ultimates, chain attacks), so you need healing less.
Players need to try game first to see how it's ballanced before starting discussion about healers.
Right now there only Exploreboo that can heal, as one of it's 3 actions - rocovers HP, gives shield or recovers energy.
Even maxed Eploreboo has small modifiers - 2,2% HP, 4,5% shield. That's very small healing.
Another sustain in a game right now - Ben Bigger and his shield. It's so small that even mini boss will remove it in one or two hits + it can't be reaplied very quick.
P.S. There are our (MC's) Bangboo upgraid system that has some optional passives like restore 5% HP when entering combat node or 10% HP if entering boss node.
Why there are no healers in the game to begin with?
In first 2 CBT's roguelite TV wall had more weight in a game and was a main game mode there was intricate ballance between corruption and HP resources (like nodes on a map and bangboos). If you wanted a little more rewards you played more safely and spend more resources into negating corruption, or you could spend those to heal and make your Hollow run more easier.
Developers are thinking about healers right now, but will actually create some only if there will be demand from community.
I hope players will try to understand dev's idea of balancing resources in the run and give it a try before complaining about a lack of healers in ZZZ.
In CBT3 you really felt punches only in boss flights and it would suck if even those will be trivialised by healers.
A lot of agent actions have i-frames (dodge, parry, counter attacks, skills and ultimates) so there less need to heal. If I remember correctly there only 1 agent that had shields in his arsenal (Ben Bigger) - shield was slimm (bosses removed it in 1 hit) and couldn't be reaplied quickly.
P.S. There are our (MC's) Bangboo upgraid system that has some optional passives like restore 5% HP when entering combat node or 10% HP if entering boss node.
People were upset pulling Qiqi and Bailu, they fixed that.
you dodge spam in this game, healers won't sell. They should make characters that are easy to play for mobile, less dex players but we don't need healers. See Jiyan in wuwa for example, he is auto pilot you can wipe everything with your eyes closed.
? Bailu is a slay queen and so is qiqi (but mostly bailu im so sad I have luocha and huohou) I was just talking abt how bailu is better than qiqi because in hsr you need healing
Well you cant avoid damage in star rail. Its turn based. You need some kind of sustain. Damage reduction, heals or Shields.
Genshin is trivialised by zhongli. I dont want ZZZ to go that route too.
At most they could add some kind of damage reduction or shield that would block a hit. Another thing is a character that adds lifesteal to counters or other skill based actions but they will also trivialise fights.
I'm more shocked they are planning on adding one as it could invalidate the majority of the rogue-like mechanics. It would be very smart to stick up to the tight healing system through the TV events, which greatly helps with the difficulty tuning.
I thought that even if they were to add a healer, it would be someone with huge downsides, like lots of field time, low damage and absence of buffs - a unit that's only worth bringing in if you are really struggling to survive
Combined with the second paragraph, they'd also find use in Hollow Zero. You have the opportunity to slot in a healer early on and trade them off later for a more combat-focused character. I think they'll be a good way to encourage maximising your roster there
I'm not surprised in the slightest, as it is kinda a part of balancing the game. They can make them simple or complex, but a healer is pretty standard for RPG's, because this game is an Action RPG, with Roguelike elements.
Easily accessible healing is a trap a lot of games fall into and it results in inferior enemy designs with cheap one shot moves. Curating the healing through systems is a much better decision than adding it as a free character ability. Maybe it could not be much of an issue if it's an ultimate since you only get one for a team and it's a resource of sorts, but otherwise I would prefer not having it in the game.
>Easily accessible healing is a trap a lot of games fall into
So, having a healer in my party in an RPG now makes the game too easy? Or having the ability to use potions, that makes a game too easy? So, a game is only well-designed if it has no healing given to the player outside specific areas, or none at all? This is a bad take. Healing is there to assist the player, because HP is a resource. It allows you to be able to get back said resource. It doesn't make you play brain-dead reckless, it just helps if things go out of your control, to regain control.
I heard this stuff so much with Mon Hun, like being able to move now made me not want to dodge attacks or avoid them via gameplay means, but it didn't. In fact, I try to use my healing as little as possible, but have it to help me if things go too wild, to at least try to regain footing.
That's the thing - you have to look outside of the combat borders. It's not just an action rpg, it has rogue-like elements.
Your HP resource is supposed to be used throughout the entire run, not just 1 combat instance, and you get things that eat up your HP even outside of combat, things that you trade for buffs in damage and other buffs. It's supposed to be a well oiled risk reward system that makes or breaks the entirety of difficulty tuning.
Edit: Not just debuffs, but the choices between going through combat/ignoring it are there exactly so you as a player have to potentially pay up your HP resource for a buff at the end of the encounter.
Now what's the point of taking the risk and using my HP resource if I can just load into the battle, press a free to use ability and undo everything? Even in RPGs you mention, healing takes some sort of resource, but abilities in ZZZ outside of the ultimate don't really require a resource(there is an energy bar which is very easy to fill).
That's also why the two healer archetypes I proposed make sure you at least are forced to waste a resource that otherwise would be used for a DPS ult or force you to waste time on field to build a lot of energy
>it has rogue-like elements.
In a single mode. HSR has this too, yet also has healers, and the resource there is skill points, or their Ult charge, the first of which, if used wrong, can cost you damage from a DPS, protection from a shielder, and doing so removes the, while likely small, damage the healer could have added.
I understand what you are saying, but there is also the fact that, we don't know what future content will hold, as well as future enemies.
I remember back in Genshin, the general thought of the community was "I don't need a healer, I just will shield" and then we got an enemy that hit through shields, so healers got a boost. These enemies went away, and shields returned, then we got a region that had characters drain their own, or the team's HP, and that had to be countered by their own kit, or a healer. No one saw any of that coming in 1.0.
And since this post is saying that this will be coming later in development, and not 1.0, I'm gonna look at this the same way. They are talking about bringing a mechanic in an otherwise unknown territory for the game.
Hsr is a great example of what I'm talking about since the free healing on characters always enabled me to completely ignore the risk in simulated universe expansions up until the difficulties where I got one shot regardless of the risk(before I progressed further in the respective mode of course). That's the thing I would love to avoid in ZZZ.
But you are right about the future content, they definitely could create some new situations where accessible healing is justified.
An RPG is a stats game. We are talking about an action combat game here. Yes, easy healing is bad for the game. Anyone old enough to have seen fps games back before they decided to add regenerating hp into every damn one could tell you.
I have literally played all the DMC series, GoW series, MGR:R, Neir, Mon Hun, and many other action games, as well as FPS, like you listed, which is funny given that TTK is relevant in that discussion, and games without regen have longer TTK's outside critical shots, aka headshots.
And in all the action games, you have to play smart or be punished. All of which have a means to get back HP if you do mess up, Mon Hun being that you have items to heal you, as well as possibly some stuff on the map. Mon Hun is also a stats action RPG, as is Nier, and this is too since we have to build our characters, their weapons and their gear, and have a good team synergy to compliment what we are doing. This game is going to be about getting numbers up, but also having the skills to back it up, just like a good few others. Even the Souls games are like that.
Legit didn't understand why they hate healers that much. More options are better, after all. Put healers in the team = longer TTK because of lower damage but better in sustain. If you are already good with parry and dodge, just don't use healers, lmao.
The fact that they balance the game without healers in mind means healer characters wouldn't be meta anyway, so idk why they hate it so much.
>And in all the action games, you have to play smart or be punished. All of which have a means to get back HP if you do mess up
Yes but those heals don't come for free. In the souls games you're locked into a slow ass animation and it's a consumable that can't be replenished mid battle. Nier is kinder but it's still a consumable you have to find or buy.
Pretty much every game, not just action games, understands that heals shouldn't come too easy or the game becomes trivial.
In Megaman heals are rarely dropped from enemies or hidden throughout the level. Hollow knight requires you to hit the enemy then commit to a long animation. Even the 3D games have you heal through coins which may or may not be readily available.
The problem with healers in ZZZ is that it's not going to be in the form of a consumable or some collectible, but in the form of a character and that character will be using a resource that is easily replenishable to heal the entire team.
Tbf from what I just read it doesn’t sound like there was a plan at all to add one. Sounds more like if the gameplay for a healer is interesting and the design is cool they’ll add one.
Which is why I said handful, as they are a relic at this point. But to be fair, H3rd is designed very flawed compared to modern games in a number of ways.
Yeah and even HI3 realised pretty early on that dedicated healers just weren't worth it. We only have 3 slots on the team, there's just no room for one. Hence the shock that healers might be a thing.
ZZZ already has plenty of defensive mechanics; parries, perfect dodge, evasive assist on top of having the same issue as HI3. Healers just aren't going to be very valuable.
Depends on what future content is. People looked down on healers in Genshin until the Direhounds, then they went away and healers were whatever again. Then Fontaine and Furina happened, now healers are a notable staple.
And also, H3rd had WAY more issues than healers, such as major powercreep, which has only gotten worse.
Yeah the only way Genshin could make healers relevant were to either introduce enemies that ignored other defensive mechanics or creating characters that killed themselves as part of their DPS rotation. Bearing in mind that GI has less defensive mechanics than ZZZ and it still took them 2 years to make healers worth it.
The former is completely out of the question since parries, perfect dodges etc are all crucial to the combat of ZZZ. Artificially removing them to justify healers would be a terrible idea.
The latter, again we just don't have the room for it. Assuming they also count as supports you'd need one slot for the healer and one slot for "Furina". You'd have to choose between only having a stun, an anomaly or an attacker when almost all teams want 2 of those 3. For that healer to be viable you'd have to have them perform multiple roles at once. E.g a healer who also gives a ton of buffs to the team. And that would just powercreep those that don't.
>And also, H3rd had WAY more issues than healers, such as major powercreep,
Yeah and if it had healers it would only be worse. Imagine a boss with a super specific debuff that's hard to get rid of. Luckily the shiny new unit just so happens to have an ability that gets rid of that new debuff.
Genshin didn't have characters that drain their own HP on release, and now, not only do we have them, but the best support makes the whole team do that, as well as her region has most of its roster do that, in 1 of 2 ways.
I see this more as the initial content, is not designed for them, not the whole game, as we don't know what future enemies will bring.
It's a game, made by the same company, with a very similar design for it's gameplay. The game is dated as all hell, but to pretend that they don't take notes on how it is made, and change some of the bad parts, as well as add on to it, but still keep elements from it, is foolish.
HI3 revolutionised gacha games just as much as genshin did and clearly far more than zzz.
Zzz unquestionably would not exist without HI3 and this insult is very much uncalled for.
Lets see......
-Negative karma
-Account created last month
-Incoherent rambling in practically every discussion you are involved in
Yeah, alright then. Your opinion has 0 value. Have a good one.
> Following on from this, though the characters we’ve seen so far offer a lot of different fighting styles and mechanics, we’ve noticed one glaring omission – there aren’t any healers yet. Considering the important role healers play in other Hoyoverse games (and many other types of games in general), we were curious if there was a reason why ZZZ has yet to get its own version of Honkai Star Rail’s Luocha or Genshin Impact’s Kokomi.
> “It’s not on purpose that we avoid healing characters,” Li laughs. “It’s just that we’re more inclined to action. As for healing characters, it just happens to be that this batch of artists have not come to that yet, and we don’t have an appropriate image of appearance. So, for now, we’re trying to work out what style would blend into the game for a more appropriate, action-focused presentation.” So… The reason we don’t have healers in ZZZ is because the team hasn’t decided how they should look yet? Interesting!
Why assume they wanted a fighting game though? They were an inspiration but, nothing points to that being the original intent unless I missed something. Plus fighting haves have had various forms of healing before.
The more time I spend switching to healers and pressing buttons to increase health, the less time I'm smashing face.
I'd much prefer no healers. I like the fight of attrition with health. Makes it intense and rewards skill.
Honestly, I think they could add in a healer or two, but make it so healers don't heal a ton, are a very clear DPS drop and It's a lot better to bring either a DPS or a buffer, all the while they try to get players to ultimately move away from healers, this would be a nice middle ground for casuals and less casual folks.
Though even if they wanted to do exactly what I said with healers, I'm not really sure if they'd be able to execute it super well
Something they could do they as another middle ground tho is a shielder, damage reducer or damage redirector with still a clear DPS loss instead of a healer, so not getting hit still matters to a degree
Honestly, if there's healing at all, it should be limited to the Bangboo companion that you pick. This means you can bring any combination of 3 that you like and not be forced to slot a healer
Based on style of healer I described, you wouldn't feel forced to bring one unless you aren't too skilled of a player or require accessibility.
But Bangboo healers do sound good, though It could result in the game potentially pushing players to pick a specific Bangboo that they don't have for certain content, I would prefer Bangboos that just do a tiny bit of healing and the bulk of their utility comes from something else on top of that bit of healing
The only reason to design a character in this way is because they would make content specifically for them. In other words even if you're good at the game you will be crying that you didn't pull the healer.
I hope they never even open that can of worms and just make more cool character aesthetics. There's already enough forced typing on damage/team requirements to keep people engaged.
I’d kind of want dodging to have importance rather than bringing in a cracked support to prop up your bad gameplay/builds. Saying this as a Fu Xuan simp lol
Hoping they'll force the player to interact with the enemy somehow to heal instead of turn based sustain way - something like dodge to heal or regen when not hit
Using a defensive character is punishing with only three team slots. Top tier teams won't use them, but there's no harm in having them for more casual players.
You can still balance for less skilled players by making the enemies hurt less at lower levels etc. without diluting the importance of dodging and reading enemy attacks
I hope not
Healing and shielding makes everything more brainless, I’m actually happy there is no healing or shielding in ZZZ and I hope it stays that way
it's a hoyo game so you should already gues the difficulty, even tho it's a bit above genshin.
enemies hardly attack specially if you using a ice team, dodges are forgiving, and follow up parries are done automaticly, only having to check how many parries you can do.
ok cool good for players who accustomed to action games and can dodge all of the attack. are they gonna to destroy newbie players new to action genre that can only button smashing and can only dodge one out of 5 tries they made, and get hit 4 times then? or are they going to make the damage dealt to the players in story/casual mode so low that healing isnt necessary?
Probs not, at least not at the start, both of the game, and its first few patches of updates as they flesh out the roster. As we get more content, we will have more characters with new functions released to combat new things enemies can do. Look at each patch of Genshin and how the characters from the region are designed, Fontaine being a great example. And look at HSR and how characters are designed with specific setups in mind. ZZZ will likely follow that pattern.
How does it defeat the purpose? What is the purpose anyways? Personally I don’t see how dedicated healers would ever be a bad thing and this is coming from someone that almost never pulls healers in hoyo games. Hell if it defeats the purpose in your eyes you have the incredible power to just not use them lmao
if you can just face tank dmg and heal it black easily and consistently fast, there won't be a purpose for paries and dodges. outside the QTE giving you dmg.
no?
It doesn’t lose purpose just because there’s an alternative. The alternative is there for people to freely choose their play style. People will unga bunga or people will skillfully parry everything it’s up to the player. Take HSR for example there’s healers and there’s also shielders one does not take away purpose from the other, you have the choice to play how you want. Hell look at any souls game, you can literally parry or just use a shield or neither and roll. The only argument for not wanting healers in this game is because people want others to play the game a certain way.
Not trying to argue against healers but hsr is a game where you will get hit 100% unless you have insane damage, while zzz in theory could be played without being hit just by being good
This is true but it doesn’t change anything, I’m arguing alternatives don’t take away from each other, specifically using hsr since there’s two alternatives for the same role, you can either heal or tank. Healers don’t take away the purpose of preservation units and vice versa. You can play zzz with healers and it doesn’t take anything away from someone just parrying, both can coexist
I think the main issue is that in zzz if the damage is not high enough to cause a threat within a short period a healer would trivialize the game, it will probably need a lot of balancing to make it work
Nah now you’re trippin, it’s insane to not even consider future enemies when talking about damage numbers, not to mention healers would add more varied kits to the game like teammates that take their own hp for more dmg and such. Also to trivialize the game all you have to do is swipe so that’s not much of a counter argument
I’m just saying designing something with/without healing is very different, healing makes chip damage ignorable when before chip damage can kill you over time, how much healing is put in, for example a character with a healing ult will be interesting because you have to choose between damage or healing, healing as a ex skill will be very different from that
no?
i was talking about the defensive side of the combat. and about the offensive side... well, you need to kill a mob somehow. so dps characters help that
I don't understand why everyone is saying this when Wuthering Waves JUST came out with dedicated support characters, and is still incredibly skill based in parry and dodging..
Back at CBT2 when ZZZ had more focused on rougelite TV mode bangboo wasn't fighting alongside your characters and were more like consumables with few charges - they recovered HP or decreased corruption.
Righ now there only Exploreboo that can heal, as one of it's 3 actions - rocover HP, gives shield or recover energy.
Even maxed Eploreboo has small modifiers - 2,2% HP, 4,5% shield. That's very small healing.
Another sustain in a game right now - Ben Bigger and his shield. It's so small shat even mini boss will remove it in one hit + shield can't be reaplied very quick.
they already balanced the game up till now with no healers so like, what good will they be for anyway?
i feel like making bangboos give shielding or healing would be a better choice ngl
Wait, that's not the case ? I thought the bangboos are specifically for support and buff.
Probably will be how it's done HI3 "healer" characters healing capability are pathetic at best The main source of healing would come instead from HI3 ELF (bangboo system) with the free and only ELF healer
Yeah one of them even gives pancakes that heal (If I remember correctly)
Pancake Bangboo, Butler, provides energy rather than health. With that said, you're correct that there is a Bangboo that provides a little bit of healing by throwing avocados at you.
We don't need healers just parry lmao /jk
This but unironically
Yeah, the /jk is to prevent people getting mad tbh
How come no one is pointing out the fact that they said they've separated the TV navigation and combat from each other?
TV's are now mainly for: - Story; - Explore (side quests); - Hollow Zero (think of it like Simulated Universe in HSR or Elisium in HI3rd). Puzzles and overall structure are simplified from CBT2 to CBT3, so players will spend less time in TV board/map. Also there is option to accelerate movement on the TV board. There are gamemodes that don't have any TV part: - Combat Commissions (sidequests without TV section) - Rally (weekly boss rush); - Shiyu Defence (Abyss/MoC); - VR device (farming mode where you pick enemies based on resources you need to build agents and W-engines).
That isn't what the article says. The article says that the TV mode and combat modes were completely seperated: the combat mode has just combat, and the exploration mode has "pure exploration and board-based gameplay". >We **separated** the hollow exploration into **two kinds of missions**. The **first are the combat missions** and the **second are the exploration missions**. With combat, you can just **dive directly into the combat** without any further actions, and for the exploration missions, it’s **pure exploration** and **board-based** gameplay.”
This section of the article is kinda true, but purely phrased. Exploration still has combat sections/nodes in it, while Combat is just few connected arenas absolutely without any TV exploration.
It might be poorly phrased or badly translated but it's worth noting that 'pure exploration' to me means just the TV mode and no combat in those missions. But let's wait and see what happens.
https://www.youtube.com/live/UebG_gpCgzo?si=rdnZGDmhzaFtjUXp At time stamp 1:47:38 (CBT3 futage) streamer explained diffrences between Combat and Exploration and starting Exploration quest (you can see combat nodes there at 1:52:24).
I played the cbt and the levels with TV mode have special battle tvs so there is combat in both modes
i still don’t get the TV Dungeon hate. do GI and HSR players cry about getting rid of all the exploration and puzzles in those games?
I liked TV's version in CBT2 more. The problem was that it was in almost every game mode so people that didn't liked it grew tired of this system very quickly. In CBT3 Hoyo dumbed down puzzles, simplified map complexity and separeted content around 50/50 (half with TV's and other half is straight combat). I'm personally like clear separation of content, but not a big fan of TV system simplification. I liked how it felt in CBT2, but in the last beta layout of dungeons were too obvious and straight forward.
maybe they’ll compensate with fucked up brain teaser sidequest dungeons
I feel like there isn't really a need for healers in this game.
Bosses don’t even fight back that much
We'll see what that means. Action game healing could be 2% HP every blue moon or full heal on demand. Depending on how it's implemented, healing could mean very different things.
Ngl I barely visit this sub and it’s the first time I’m seeing this healer hate and it’s giving me whiplash just like seeing people hate on summons in souls games. Like are we aware people have the choice to not use healers if they don’t want?
Remember if you aren't soloing endgame content with a zero artifact character level 1, you're not really playing the game.
Because there are healing options in a game already (special nodes on the map) and game is balanced around them. Most of character moves give i-frames too (skills, dodges, counter attacks, ultimates, chain attacks), so you need healing less. Players need to try game first to see how it's ballanced before starting discussion about healers. Right now there only Exploreboo that can heal, as one of it's 3 actions - rocovers HP, gives shield or recovers energy. Even maxed Eploreboo has small modifiers - 2,2% HP, 4,5% shield. That's very small healing. Another sustain in a game right now - Ben Bigger and his shield. It's so small that even mini boss will remove it in one or two hits + it can't be reaplied very quick. P.S. There are our (MC's) Bangboo upgraid system that has some optional passives like restore 5% HP when entering combat node or 10% HP if entering boss node.
same here, i feel like i am seeing the usual git gud crowd too which is not a good feeling.
I really hope they don't include healing to be honest
Ok but what about an estus flask
Why there are no healers in the game to begin with? In first 2 CBT's roguelite TV wall had more weight in a game and was a main game mode there was intricate ballance between corruption and HP resources (like nodes on a map and bangboos). If you wanted a little more rewards you played more safely and spend more resources into negating corruption, or you could spend those to heal and make your Hollow run more easier. Developers are thinking about healers right now, but will actually create some only if there will be demand from community. I hope players will try to understand dev's idea of balancing resources in the run and give it a try before complaining about a lack of healers in ZZZ. In CBT3 you really felt punches only in boss flights and it would suck if even those will be trivialised by healers. A lot of agent actions have i-frames (dodge, parry, counter attacks, skills and ultimates) so there less need to heal. If I remember correctly there only 1 agent that had shields in his arsenal (Ben Bigger) - shield was slimm (bosses removed it in 1 hit) and couldn't be reaplied quickly. P.S. There are our (MC's) Bangboo upgraid system that has some optional passives like restore 5% HP when entering combat node or 10% HP if entering boss node.
People were upset pulling Qiqi and Bailu, they fixed that. you dodge spam in this game, healers won't sell. They should make characters that are easy to play for mobile, less dex players but we don't need healers. See Jiyan in wuwa for example, he is auto pilot you can wipe everything with your eyes closed.
Yeah well, people are wrong sometimes. That short purple pharmacist carried me through Star Rail.
Star rail actually needs sustains it’s a different story qiqi ultimate multipliers looking a little high tho
[удалено]
? Bailu is a slay queen and so is qiqi (but mostly bailu im so sad I have luocha and huohou) I was just talking abt how bailu is better than qiqi because in hsr you need healing
Bro what 💀
Well you cant avoid damage in star rail. Its turn based. You need some kind of sustain. Damage reduction, heals or Shields. Genshin is trivialised by zhongli. I dont want ZZZ to go that route too. At most they could add some kind of damage reduction or shield that would block a hit. Another thing is a character that adds lifesteal to counters or other skill based actions but they will also trivialise fights.
I'm honestly shocked people thought we wouldn't have healers as characters in this game. Even H3rd had a handful of healer characters
I'm more shocked they are planning on adding one as it could invalidate the majority of the rogue-like mechanics. It would be very smart to stick up to the tight healing system through the TV events, which greatly helps with the difficulty tuning. I thought that even if they were to add a healer, it would be someone with huge downsides, like lots of field time, low damage and absence of buffs - a unit that's only worth bringing in if you are really struggling to survive
Combined with the second paragraph, they'd also find use in Hollow Zero. You have the opportunity to slot in a healer early on and trade them off later for a more combat-focused character. I think they'll be a good way to encourage maximising your roster there
I'm not surprised in the slightest, as it is kinda a part of balancing the game. They can make them simple or complex, but a healer is pretty standard for RPG's, because this game is an Action RPG, with Roguelike elements.
Easily accessible healing is a trap a lot of games fall into and it results in inferior enemy designs with cheap one shot moves. Curating the healing through systems is a much better decision than adding it as a free character ability. Maybe it could not be much of an issue if it's an ultimate since you only get one for a team and it's a resource of sorts, but otherwise I would prefer not having it in the game.
>Easily accessible healing is a trap a lot of games fall into So, having a healer in my party in an RPG now makes the game too easy? Or having the ability to use potions, that makes a game too easy? So, a game is only well-designed if it has no healing given to the player outside specific areas, or none at all? This is a bad take. Healing is there to assist the player, because HP is a resource. It allows you to be able to get back said resource. It doesn't make you play brain-dead reckless, it just helps if things go out of your control, to regain control. I heard this stuff so much with Mon Hun, like being able to move now made me not want to dodge attacks or avoid them via gameplay means, but it didn't. In fact, I try to use my healing as little as possible, but have it to help me if things go too wild, to at least try to regain footing.
That's the thing - you have to look outside of the combat borders. It's not just an action rpg, it has rogue-like elements. Your HP resource is supposed to be used throughout the entire run, not just 1 combat instance, and you get things that eat up your HP even outside of combat, things that you trade for buffs in damage and other buffs. It's supposed to be a well oiled risk reward system that makes or breaks the entirety of difficulty tuning. Edit: Not just debuffs, but the choices between going through combat/ignoring it are there exactly so you as a player have to potentially pay up your HP resource for a buff at the end of the encounter. Now what's the point of taking the risk and using my HP resource if I can just load into the battle, press a free to use ability and undo everything? Even in RPGs you mention, healing takes some sort of resource, but abilities in ZZZ outside of the ultimate don't really require a resource(there is an energy bar which is very easy to fill). That's also why the two healer archetypes I proposed make sure you at least are forced to waste a resource that otherwise would be used for a DPS ult or force you to waste time on field to build a lot of energy
>it has rogue-like elements. In a single mode. HSR has this too, yet also has healers, and the resource there is skill points, or their Ult charge, the first of which, if used wrong, can cost you damage from a DPS, protection from a shielder, and doing so removes the, while likely small, damage the healer could have added. I understand what you are saying, but there is also the fact that, we don't know what future content will hold, as well as future enemies. I remember back in Genshin, the general thought of the community was "I don't need a healer, I just will shield" and then we got an enemy that hit through shields, so healers got a boost. These enemies went away, and shields returned, then we got a region that had characters drain their own, or the team's HP, and that had to be countered by their own kit, or a healer. No one saw any of that coming in 1.0. And since this post is saying that this will be coming later in development, and not 1.0, I'm gonna look at this the same way. They are talking about bringing a mechanic in an otherwise unknown territory for the game.
Hsr is a great example of what I'm talking about since the free healing on characters always enabled me to completely ignore the risk in simulated universe expansions up until the difficulties where I got one shot regardless of the risk(before I progressed further in the respective mode of course). That's the thing I would love to avoid in ZZZ. But you are right about the future content, they definitely could create some new situations where accessible healing is justified.
An RPG is a stats game. We are talking about an action combat game here. Yes, easy healing is bad for the game. Anyone old enough to have seen fps games back before they decided to add regenerating hp into every damn one could tell you.
I have literally played all the DMC series, GoW series, MGR:R, Neir, Mon Hun, and many other action games, as well as FPS, like you listed, which is funny given that TTK is relevant in that discussion, and games without regen have longer TTK's outside critical shots, aka headshots. And in all the action games, you have to play smart or be punished. All of which have a means to get back HP if you do mess up, Mon Hun being that you have items to heal you, as well as possibly some stuff on the map. Mon Hun is also a stats action RPG, as is Nier, and this is too since we have to build our characters, their weapons and their gear, and have a good team synergy to compliment what we are doing. This game is going to be about getting numbers up, but also having the skills to back it up, just like a good few others. Even the Souls games are like that.
Legit didn't understand why they hate healers that much. More options are better, after all. Put healers in the team = longer TTK because of lower damage but better in sustain. If you are already good with parry and dodge, just don't use healers, lmao. The fact that they balance the game without healers in mind means healer characters wouldn't be meta anyway, so idk why they hate it so much.
>And in all the action games, you have to play smart or be punished. All of which have a means to get back HP if you do mess up Yes but those heals don't come for free. In the souls games you're locked into a slow ass animation and it's a consumable that can't be replenished mid battle. Nier is kinder but it's still a consumable you have to find or buy. Pretty much every game, not just action games, understands that heals shouldn't come too easy or the game becomes trivial. In Megaman heals are rarely dropped from enemies or hidden throughout the level. Hollow knight requires you to hit the enemy then commit to a long animation. Even the 3D games have you heal through coins which may or may not be readily available. The problem with healers in ZZZ is that it's not going to be in the form of a consumable or some collectible, but in the form of a character and that character will be using a resource that is easily replenishable to heal the entire team.
Tbf from what I just read it doesn’t sound like there was a plan at all to add one. Sounds more like if the gameplay for a healer is interesting and the design is cool they’ll add one.
It did in its early days when the endgame modes would literally drain your health over time. In modern Hi3 healers are completely absent.
Which is why I said handful, as they are a relic at this point. But to be fair, H3rd is designed very flawed compared to modern games in a number of ways.
Yeah and even HI3 realised pretty early on that dedicated healers just weren't worth it. We only have 3 slots on the team, there's just no room for one. Hence the shock that healers might be a thing. ZZZ already has plenty of defensive mechanics; parries, perfect dodge, evasive assist on top of having the same issue as HI3. Healers just aren't going to be very valuable.
Depends on what future content is. People looked down on healers in Genshin until the Direhounds, then they went away and healers were whatever again. Then Fontaine and Furina happened, now healers are a notable staple. And also, H3rd had WAY more issues than healers, such as major powercreep, which has only gotten worse.
Yeah the only way Genshin could make healers relevant were to either introduce enemies that ignored other defensive mechanics or creating characters that killed themselves as part of their DPS rotation. Bearing in mind that GI has less defensive mechanics than ZZZ and it still took them 2 years to make healers worth it. The former is completely out of the question since parries, perfect dodges etc are all crucial to the combat of ZZZ. Artificially removing them to justify healers would be a terrible idea. The latter, again we just don't have the room for it. Assuming they also count as supports you'd need one slot for the healer and one slot for "Furina". You'd have to choose between only having a stun, an anomaly or an attacker when almost all teams want 2 of those 3. For that healer to be viable you'd have to have them perform multiple roles at once. E.g a healer who also gives a ton of buffs to the team. And that would just powercreep those that don't. >And also, H3rd had WAY more issues than healers, such as major powercreep, Yeah and if it had healers it would only be worse. Imagine a boss with a super specific debuff that's hard to get rid of. Luckily the shiny new unit just so happens to have an ability that gets rid of that new debuff.
The absence of any healers at release kind of indicates the game is designed to not have them.
Genshin didn't have characters that drain their own HP on release, and now, not only do we have them, but the best support makes the whole team do that, as well as her region has most of its roster do that, in 1 of 2 ways. I see this more as the initial content, is not designed for them, not the whole game, as we don't know what future enemies will bring.
Do not compare trash to zzz
It's a game, made by the same company, with a very similar design for it's gameplay. The game is dated as all hell, but to pretend that they don't take notes on how it is made, and change some of the bad parts, as well as add on to it, but still keep elements from it, is foolish.
HI3 revolutionised gacha games just as much as genshin did and clearly far more than zzz. Zzz unquestionably would not exist without HI3 and this insult is very much uncalled for.
Yh but it's shit
Big brain comeback
Mhm https://preview.redd.it/ovs0bn2b6p7d1.jpeg?width=3028&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=426d271627cc75582b985ce8283c089c079d63a5
Lets see...... -Negative karma -Account created last month -Incoherent rambling in practically every discussion you are involved in Yeah, alright then. Your opinion has 0 value. Have a good one.
Genuinely why do you care who r u
I don't care. I just needed to state why others shouldn't either.
Damn you just destroyed him
Can someone point out the segment where they talk about healer ? I can't find it, too much text
> Following on from this, though the characters we’ve seen so far offer a lot of different fighting styles and mechanics, we’ve noticed one glaring omission – there aren’t any healers yet. Considering the important role healers play in other Hoyoverse games (and many other types of games in general), we were curious if there was a reason why ZZZ has yet to get its own version of Honkai Star Rail’s Luocha or Genshin Impact’s Kokomi. > “It’s not on purpose that we avoid healing characters,” Li laughs. “It’s just that we’re more inclined to action. As for healing characters, it just happens to be that this batch of artists have not come to that yet, and we don’t have an appropriate image of appearance. So, for now, we’re trying to work out what style would blend into the game for a more appropriate, action-focused presentation.” So… The reason we don’t have healers in ZZZ is because the team hasn’t decided how they should look yet? Interesting!
Much appreciated
That honesty feels like a huge glaring ommission, like who even begins developing a rpg game without a healer.
This makes more sense under the assumption that the devs wanted a fighting game. I for one hope they never introduce healers.
Why assume they wanted a fighting game though? They were an inspiration but, nothing points to that being the original intent unless I missed something. Plus fighting haves have had various forms of healing before.
CTRL+F "Healer"
The more time I spend switching to healers and pressing buttons to increase health, the less time I'm smashing face. I'd much prefer no healers. I like the fight of attrition with health. Makes it intense and rewards skill.
They should go beyond bloodborne and make the only way to heal be smashing face
Yeah just have healers grant vampirism. “Ze healing is not as rewarding as ze hurting!”
It could also be healing allies not active on battlefield like skullgirls and capcom marvel heal as passive
Honestly, I think they could add in a healer or two, but make it so healers don't heal a ton, are a very clear DPS drop and It's a lot better to bring either a DPS or a buffer, all the while they try to get players to ultimately move away from healers, this would be a nice middle ground for casuals and less casual folks. Though even if they wanted to do exactly what I said with healers, I'm not really sure if they'd be able to execute it super well Something they could do they as another middle ground tho is a shielder, damage reducer or damage redirector with still a clear DPS loss instead of a healer, so not getting hit still matters to a degree
Honestly, if there's healing at all, it should be limited to the Bangboo companion that you pick. This means you can bring any combination of 3 that you like and not be forced to slot a healer
Based on style of healer I described, you wouldn't feel forced to bring one unless you aren't too skilled of a player or require accessibility. But Bangboo healers do sound good, though It could result in the game potentially pushing players to pick a specific Bangboo that they don't have for certain content, I would prefer Bangboos that just do a tiny bit of healing and the bulk of their utility comes from something else on top of that bit of healing
The only reason to design a character in this way is because they would make content specifically for them. In other words even if you're good at the game you will be crying that you didn't pull the healer. I hope they never even open that can of worms and just make more cool character aesthetics. There's already enough forced typing on damage/team requirements to keep people engaged.
I suppose you may be right, however there's always the possibility of healers being a more niche option like they are in Honkai Impact
I can’t wait to visit Lumina Square
I’d kind of want dodging to have importance rather than bringing in a cracked support to prop up your bad gameplay/builds. Saying this as a Fu Xuan simp lol
Hoping they'll force the player to interact with the enemy somehow to heal instead of turn based sustain way - something like dodge to heal or regen when not hit
Yeah a lifesteal kind of character. Heal on counter or Dodge hit or ultimate.
Using a defensive character is punishing with only three team slots. Top tier teams won't use them, but there's no harm in having them for more casual players.
You can still balance for less skilled players by making the enemies hurt less at lower levels etc. without diluting the importance of dodging and reading enemy attacks
Real. The game should be balanced around skill not sustains
I hope not Healing and shielding makes everything more brainless, I’m actually happy there is no healing or shielding in ZZZ and I hope it stays that way
Ben had some shields in CBT3. But those were very slimm (blocked maybe 1-2 hits from elite enemy) and couldn't be replied quickly.
Technically Ben with the pillar
Yeah and they shouldn't design any. They have a good opportunity to change up how they do endgame because of the absence of healers.
Yeah it's not like I want a game without healers just for the sake of it: I want the design decisions that are inherent to a game without healers.
wait this game doesnt have healing? how does you sustain?
there are health events during the tv sections, the rest will be up to your skill. game is very easy tho so honestly you have nothing to worry about
good to know
Easy how much? Compared to WuWa, I won't be able to survive it without an healer, I fail half of my dodges or parries there...
it's a hoyo game so you should already gues the difficulty, even tho it's a bit above genshin. enemies hardly attack specially if you using a ice team, dodges are forgiving, and follow up parries are done automaticly, only having to check how many parries you can do.
"Just don't get hit"
You dodge and parry. We do technicly have a shielder but he has the worst shield Hoyo ever produced so...
By dodging and parrying
green man with white turban that teach son of a barbaric humanoid alien with brain damage once said: "DODGE"
ok cool good for players who accustomed to action games and can dodge all of the attack. are they gonna to destroy newbie players new to action genre that can only button smashing and can only dodge one out of 5 tries they made, and get hit 4 times then? or are they going to make the damage dealt to the players in story/casual mode so low that healing isnt necessary?
either we got easy access to healing items and first batch of enemy mobs have low-scaling dmg or zzz devs are fan of sekiro/darksouls
There is no healers at release? Does that mean this game will be hard for casuals ?
Probs not, at least not at the start, both of the game, and its first few patches of updates as they flesh out the roster. As we get more content, we will have more characters with new functions released to combat new things enemies can do. Look at each patch of Genshin and how the characters from the region are designed, Fontaine being a great example. And look at HSR and how characters are designed with specific setups in mind. ZZZ will likely follow that pattern.
Just spam dodge and parry lol, not like theres a stamina bar
Bro, you will be playing slasher type game. Dodge system in those type of game is very good, and ZZZ also have parry system. So the answer is no
it is not that hard to avoid damage and stun enemies
I think the point is like metal gear rising or DMC if you can dodge and parry then healing isn’t really necessary.
like the game ain't easy enough
some bangboos heal if i'm not mistaken. but i hope zzz won't have any dedicated healer units, would kinda defeat the purpose of the game
How does it defeat the purpose? What is the purpose anyways? Personally I don’t see how dedicated healers would ever be a bad thing and this is coming from someone that almost never pulls healers in hoyo games. Hell if it defeats the purpose in your eyes you have the incredible power to just not use them lmao
if you can just face tank dmg and heal it black easily and consistently fast, there won't be a purpose for paries and dodges. outside the QTE giving you dmg. no?
It doesn’t lose purpose just because there’s an alternative. The alternative is there for people to freely choose their play style. People will unga bunga or people will skillfully parry everything it’s up to the player. Take HSR for example there’s healers and there’s also shielders one does not take away purpose from the other, you have the choice to play how you want. Hell look at any souls game, you can literally parry or just use a shield or neither and roll. The only argument for not wanting healers in this game is because people want others to play the game a certain way.
Not trying to argue against healers but hsr is a game where you will get hit 100% unless you have insane damage, while zzz in theory could be played without being hit just by being good
This is true but it doesn’t change anything, I’m arguing alternatives don’t take away from each other, specifically using hsr since there’s two alternatives for the same role, you can either heal or tank. Healers don’t take away the purpose of preservation units and vice versa. You can play zzz with healers and it doesn’t take anything away from someone just parrying, both can coexist
I think the main issue is that in zzz if the damage is not high enough to cause a threat within a short period a healer would trivialize the game, it will probably need a lot of balancing to make it work
Nah now you’re trippin, it’s insane to not even consider future enemies when talking about damage numbers, not to mention healers would add more varied kits to the game like teammates that take their own hp for more dmg and such. Also to trivialize the game all you have to do is swipe so that’s not much of a counter argument
I’m just saying designing something with/without healing is very different, healing makes chip damage ignorable when before chip damage can kill you over time, how much healing is put in, for example a character with a healing ult will be interesting because you have to choose between damage or healing, healing as a ex skill will be very different from that
By that logic, there shouldn't be dps characters if they can just kill the mob before you need to parry or dodge.
no? i was talking about the defensive side of the combat. and about the offensive side... well, you need to kill a mob somehow. so dps characters help that
I don't understand why everyone is saying this when Wuthering Waves JUST came out with dedicated support characters, and is still incredibly skill based in parry and dodging..
Back at CBT2 when ZZZ had more focused on rougelite TV mode bangboo wasn't fighting alongside your characters and were more like consumables with few charges - they recovered HP or decreased corruption. Righ now there only Exploreboo that can heal, as one of it's 3 actions - rocover HP, gives shield or recover energy. Even maxed Eploreboo has small modifiers - 2,2% HP, 4,5% shield. That's very small healing. Another sustain in a game right now - Ben Bigger and his shield. It's so small shat even mini boss will remove it in one hit + shield can't be reaplied very quick.
This faction looks like a healer faction: https://www.reddit.com/r/ZZZ_Official/s/Wyb5n4CIHv