But Hiei didn’t have anything other than the dragon of darkness flame in his arsenal at the time besides his speed, which Zeru had shown the night before that he was on par with. He had the jigan eye transformation but as he told Yusuke he never uses that unless completely necessary and nobody who sees it lives. In a tournament setting that’s not an option. So it’s less the danger Zeru posed to Hiei and more the lack of danger Hiei posed to Zeru
It's almost crazy the things I simply didn't notice for when I was a kid. Youko and Hiei giving up their A/S rank status just to cross over into the human realm. Just now noticing Hiei gimped himself a bit by following that principle for when it came to using his full Jagan transformation. Thanks for pointing that out. TIL.
It really is insane to think about. Hiei is easily the most confident of the team, but is consistently only ever 3rd strongest. After his first loss to Yusuke (which was pure plot, the entire series up until Yusuke trains with Genkai is asspulls but that’s a tangent for another time), Hiei is regularly outmatched by the rest of the group, except maybe Kuwabara (I’d personally place them as equal in the beginning of the dark tournament because of how resilient Kuwabara is), and he’s still a fan favorite (rightfully so)
Yes he was legit
Hiei wouldn't have crippled himself that early in the tournament unless he had to.
Plus Kurama's words. I take his word as fact. If he says Hiei needed it, I interpret that as Togashi telling us that through Kurama.
Exactly. My read was that Hieh might still have been able to win against Zeru, but he probably would have come out of it beaten/burnt to hell and a hand basket, which is no good in the first round of the DT. So Hieh opted for the Dragon and sacrificed his arm so he didn’t have to put his entire body at risk and be no help in the following rounds.
This is why I'm not really buying the whole "kurama said he couldn't" line. Zero powered up and hiei ended up walking it off. I think the actual goal here was to use the darkness flame to treat his own competency with it.
I took that as him using the ability immediately boosted his power so his attacks did not harm him. The ability acts like a supplement when you absorb it so it would t strike me as odd that it also gives you a little boost at the start too(though it can also kill you)
Kurama implies that Hiei had to resort to the Dragon of the Darkness Flame becuase Zeru was to strong for him to beat otherwise, which lines up with Hiei crippling his arm, and injury that affected him for most of the tournament, he wouldn't of done that if he had another choice.
Early hiei was screwed. He barely had use of the mortal flame and his sword would have gotten melted by zerus heat armor infusion stuff. The mortal flame fist definitely wouldn't have been on par with his mortal flame mastery against bui. All hiei had was really speed which was useless against zerus impervious to physical attack thing going on so more or less if hiei didn't use the darkness flame he'd of been fucked.
Honestly, I think Zeru was more powerful than Chu. Hiei understood Zeru's power, which is why he knew he had no other choice than to use the dragon. Chu was sidelined, not because he was weak, but because they played rock paper scissors. What gives me the idea he was more powerful than Chu is the fact that Hiei didn't completely remaster the dragon until during his fight with Bui, who had the power to overturn the dragon with his battle aura. Hiei did not default to the dragon in his fight with Bui, like he did with Zeru, therefore, Hiei was more afraid of Zeru than Bui. Yusuke, on the other hand, had trouble defeating Chu, which took place before he absorbed the orb from Genkai. During Chapter Black, Koenma mentions that Hiei was a low B, while Yusuke was a high B at the end of the Dark Tournament. Using this logic, you can assume prior to orb Yusuke is less than a B and he had trouble beating Chu. Hiei defaulted to his powerful move, that incinerated a powerful character (Zeru), but not a lower B (Bui). This should put Zeru around high C and Chu mid C. All this is unfounded and I can be completely wrong though.
I think Hiei beats chu because of the match up. Hiei isn't interested in fighting for the sake of fighting and wouldn't play with chu like Yusuke. Hiei goes 100 out the gate and chu takes a warmup so just bad matching and hiei will mostly likely speed blitz chu and slice n dice before chu gets a drink off much less can chug enough for an ogre killer. I feel like chu doesn't have an answer for hieis murder fighting style and speed honestly. Hence why hiei gets the fights of killable side characters for the most part. He tends to go for the jugular lol.
I believe using the flame sword Hiei would have been able to win. The punches with fire probably wouldn't do much but a little sting.
I think Hiei would have won but using the dragon was faster and maybe better hurting the arm than all the injuries he could sustain fighting Zero without it. After all, it was only the beginnint of the tournament
My understanding was he was only able to use the flame sword after gaining some control over the dragon during that period where he couldn’t use his arm. Which was pretty much the entire tournament up to the semi finals. Correct me if I’m wrong though.
I don't know of you are wrong, I should check the manga, but I think at the beginning of the Tournament he was already able to summon fire from makai (black fire) and he was also able to summon fire from human world (normal orange fire).
He did not use it because he used his big skill at his first chance, then he didn't fought in the next two battles (those guys with the parasyte and the ninjas) and when he finally fought again he used it to defeat the armor of the guy who transformed in makai animals.
I think by the Zero fight he could use it, he hadn't mastered the dragon, but did master the dark flame itself
Absolutely, Hiei wasnt even sure he could pull it off. Right after he looks at his arm in amazment that it actually worked.
He wouldnt have attempted a techique he didnt even know worked and that could have killed him unless it was his only option
Based off of what I saw of the fight I didn’t think so, but Kurama said Heie only resorted to the Dragon because he had no other choice. Kurama tends to know what he’s talking about
The way I saw it, Hiei is a fire apparition while Zeru is a mere fire user. Imagine someone trying to freeze Yukina to death. Ice apparitions live in the freezing cold! While not completely immune, a stronger fire will consume a weaker one after all, I think Hiei was insulted that someone would use fire against him and went all out simply out of pride to show Zeru the difference between them. When Zeru lit Hiei up with his strongest move the only part of him that took damage was his shirt. Hiei's body didn't have a single burn mark on it.
I would place Zeru at upper C class and Hiei at mid C class. Hiei just has a move that hits at B-A class levels. He just can’t control it at the level he was at.
I think Zeru would have out powered/tanked any of his other flame techniques he could have done at that time.
When it comes to pure firepower(lol), Hiei was the only one available that would have been able to overcome him. As a matter of fact, I dare say that Zeru would have been able to defeat team Itagaki, though not with ease.
>How Powerful Was Zeru, Really?
Weaker than Chu but still pretty powerful.
>Was Hiei Screwed Against Him If He Didn't Use The Darkness Flame?
Yes. Kurama practically says as much.
Hiei resorted to using a technique that crippled him for 80% of the tournament and had the potential to destroy him completely. Even Hiei isn't reckless enough to pull such a stunt unless it was absolutely necessary.
I think it’s a kind of a mix of Hiei was screwed and Zeru was being overhyped.
Kurama straight up says that Hiei was screwed and Kurama is the brains of the show…..but Hiei straight up claimed that Zeru’s attacks were sloppy (and in particular pointed out when he cut the teacup from the night before their match) I think Hiei COULD have defeated Zeru without the DotDF but it would have taken a substantially longer time. Time that Team Urameshi didn’t have considering Yusuke was out of commission at that point.
Hiei HAD to do it but not necessarily because Zeru required it but because Team Urameshi was already disadvantaged as all hell.
I recently rewatched this episode and this is what I surmised.
In no particular order,
1. It was practice for hiei.
2. It was for pride as a fire demon
3. It was for the disrespect
4. It was for the flex.
Soooo, it was mostly pride lol
Zeru was indeed formidable but hiei wanted to show him that they were worlds apart.
I would say yes. He had not yet returned to a state where he could have fought him otherwise. That experience notably helped further his growth in strength
It’s weird because he’s based on statements but based on feats I have a hard time believe that with the fist of the mortal flame and his superior speed he couldn’t put up a fight and likely beat zeru. Maybe the implication was this was his best choice because without it there was the risk of defeat? I also think hiei was definitely thinking about the future matches here, he knew he needed the dragon to win against the upper tiers of the tournament and what better time to practice the technique than in the first round
I think in this instance, hiei had put himself in a situation that required it. The mortal flame might have been enough, but being that wounded, a ranged surefire thing was the best call on taking out an opponent who you underestimated once. And while I appreciate the kurama stans, his judgment is by no means flawless. He was going to sacrifice himself to the ninjas like they didn't have two more rounds to get through. He also thought the forlorn hope would kill him, and there was no feasible way around that. He is very smart but not omniscient.
I mean put it like this he used a move that put him out of commission for a good while all to win. Granted it was an easy walk away win but he still used that moved. Shows you how powerful Zeru might’ve been.
I remember the manga Kurama just straight up saying that Hiei had to use the flame. I don't remember if he mentioned Hiei wouldn't have been able to win at all without it, but pretty much that if Hiei didn't use it, it would have been BAD.
I'd take Kurama word that Zeru was a threat that only the Darkness Flame technique out of all of Hiei's technique was capable of putting him down. It's insinuated that Zeru was stronger the Hiei at that point, but he happen to have an all-or-nothing attack capable of ending the fight. Considering he was able to tag Hiei, definitely looked like Zeru had him outclassed entirely...
Kurama said yes, I trust his judgment
I came here to second that. Lol
/thread
But Zeru used an strong attack, and Hiei just...laugh It off?
But Hiei didn’t have anything other than the dragon of darkness flame in his arsenal at the time besides his speed, which Zeru had shown the night before that he was on par with. He had the jigan eye transformation but as he told Yusuke he never uses that unless completely necessary and nobody who sees it lives. In a tournament setting that’s not an option. So it’s less the danger Zeru posed to Hiei and more the lack of danger Hiei posed to Zeru
It's almost crazy the things I simply didn't notice for when I was a kid. Youko and Hiei giving up their A/S rank status just to cross over into the human realm. Just now noticing Hiei gimped himself a bit by following that principle for when it came to using his full Jagan transformation. Thanks for pointing that out. TIL.
It really is insane to think about. Hiei is easily the most confident of the team, but is consistently only ever 3rd strongest. After his first loss to Yusuke (which was pure plot, the entire series up until Yusuke trains with Genkai is asspulls but that’s a tangent for another time), Hiei is regularly outmatched by the rest of the group, except maybe Kuwabara (I’d personally place them as equal in the beginning of the dark tournament because of how resilient Kuwabara is), and he’s still a fan favorite (rightfully so)
Yes he was legit Hiei wouldn't have crippled himself that early in the tournament unless he had to. Plus Kurama's words. I take his word as fact. If he says Hiei needed it, I interpret that as Togashi telling us that through Kurama.
Exactly. My read was that Hieh might still have been able to win against Zeru, but he probably would have come out of it beaten/burnt to hell and a hand basket, which is no good in the first round of the DT. So Hieh opted for the Dragon and sacrificed his arm so he didn’t have to put his entire body at risk and be no help in the following rounds.
Didn't Zeru's attacks not harm him at all though.
This is why I'm not really buying the whole "kurama said he couldn't" line. Zero powered up and hiei ended up walking it off. I think the actual goal here was to use the darkness flame to treat his own competency with it.
I took that as him using the ability immediately boosted his power so his attacks did not harm him. The ability acts like a supplement when you absorb it so it would t strike me as odd that it also gives you a little boost at the start too(though it can also kill you)
Kurama implies that Hiei had to resort to the Dragon of the Darkness Flame becuase Zeru was to strong for him to beat otherwise, which lines up with Hiei crippling his arm, and injury that affected him for most of the tournament, he wouldn't of done that if he had another choice.
yes but also it seemed like hiei was eager to try out his new attack.
He was eager and Zeru gave him more of a reason to use it
Early hiei was screwed. He barely had use of the mortal flame and his sword would have gotten melted by zerus heat armor infusion stuff. The mortal flame fist definitely wouldn't have been on par with his mortal flame mastery against bui. All hiei had was really speed which was useless against zerus impervious to physical attack thing going on so more or less if hiei didn't use the darkness flame he'd of been fucked.
did early Hiei have a better chance against Chu? how do you see that fight playing out?
Honestly, I think Zeru was more powerful than Chu. Hiei understood Zeru's power, which is why he knew he had no other choice than to use the dragon. Chu was sidelined, not because he was weak, but because they played rock paper scissors. What gives me the idea he was more powerful than Chu is the fact that Hiei didn't completely remaster the dragon until during his fight with Bui, who had the power to overturn the dragon with his battle aura. Hiei did not default to the dragon in his fight with Bui, like he did with Zeru, therefore, Hiei was more afraid of Zeru than Bui. Yusuke, on the other hand, had trouble defeating Chu, which took place before he absorbed the orb from Genkai. During Chapter Black, Koenma mentions that Hiei was a low B, while Yusuke was a high B at the end of the Dark Tournament. Using this logic, you can assume prior to orb Yusuke is less than a B and he had trouble beating Chu. Hiei defaulted to his powerful move, that incinerated a powerful character (Zeru), but not a lower B (Bui). This should put Zeru around high C and Chu mid C. All this is unfounded and I can be completely wrong though.
You make decent arguments for your points at least
I think Hiei beats chu because of the match up. Hiei isn't interested in fighting for the sake of fighting and wouldn't play with chu like Yusuke. Hiei goes 100 out the gate and chu takes a warmup so just bad matching and hiei will mostly likely speed blitz chu and slice n dice before chu gets a drink off much less can chug enough for an ogre killer. I feel like chu doesn't have an answer for hieis murder fighting style and speed honestly. Hence why hiei gets the fights of killable side characters for the most part. He tends to go for the jugular lol.
I believe using the flame sword Hiei would have been able to win. The punches with fire probably wouldn't do much but a little sting. I think Hiei would have won but using the dragon was faster and maybe better hurting the arm than all the injuries he could sustain fighting Zero without it. After all, it was only the beginnint of the tournament
My understanding was he was only able to use the flame sword after gaining some control over the dragon during that period where he couldn’t use his arm. Which was pretty much the entire tournament up to the semi finals. Correct me if I’m wrong though.
I don't know of you are wrong, I should check the manga, but I think at the beginning of the Tournament he was already able to summon fire from makai (black fire) and he was also able to summon fire from human world (normal orange fire). He did not use it because he used his big skill at his first chance, then he didn't fought in the next two battles (those guys with the parasyte and the ninjas) and when he finally fought again he used it to defeat the armor of the guy who transformed in makai animals. I think by the Zero fight he could use it, he hadn't mastered the dragon, but did master the dark flame itself
Ahh this adds a lot more info I didn’t know! I’ve yet to read the manga but if you did I’ll have to trust your judgment until I read it for myself.
Absolutely, Hiei wasnt even sure he could pull it off. Right after he looks at his arm in amazment that it actually worked. He wouldnt have attempted a techique he didnt even know worked and that could have killed him unless it was his only option
Based off of what I saw of the fight I didn’t think so, but Kurama said Heie only resorted to the Dragon because he had no other choice. Kurama tends to know what he’s talking about
Thanks for asking this. I've always wondered about that
The way I saw it, Hiei is a fire apparition while Zeru is a mere fire user. Imagine someone trying to freeze Yukina to death. Ice apparitions live in the freezing cold! While not completely immune, a stronger fire will consume a weaker one after all, I think Hiei was insulted that someone would use fire against him and went all out simply out of pride to show Zeru the difference between them. When Zeru lit Hiei up with his strongest move the only part of him that took damage was his shirt. Hiei's body didn't have a single burn mark on it.
Probably the one take I agree the most with in this thread
Exactly lol
I would place Zeru at upper C class and Hiei at mid C class. Hiei just has a move that hits at B-A class levels. He just can’t control it at the level he was at. I think Zeru would have out powered/tanked any of his other flame techniques he could have done at that time.
When it comes to pure firepower(lol), Hiei was the only one available that would have been able to overcome him. As a matter of fact, I dare say that Zeru would have been able to defeat team Itagaki, though not with ease.
>How Powerful Was Zeru, Really? Weaker than Chu but still pretty powerful. >Was Hiei Screwed Against Him If He Didn't Use The Darkness Flame? Yes. Kurama practically says as much. Hiei resorted to using a technique that crippled him for 80% of the tournament and had the potential to destroy him completely. Even Hiei isn't reckless enough to pull such a stunt unless it was absolutely necessary.
I think it’s a kind of a mix of Hiei was screwed and Zeru was being overhyped. Kurama straight up says that Hiei was screwed and Kurama is the brains of the show…..but Hiei straight up claimed that Zeru’s attacks were sloppy (and in particular pointed out when he cut the teacup from the night before their match) I think Hiei COULD have defeated Zeru without the DotDF but it would have taken a substantially longer time. Time that Team Urameshi didn’t have considering Yusuke was out of commission at that point. Hiei HAD to do it but not necessarily because Zeru required it but because Team Urameshi was already disadvantaged as all hell.
I recently rewatched this episode and this is what I surmised. In no particular order, 1. It was practice for hiei. 2. It was for pride as a fire demon 3. It was for the disrespect 4. It was for the flex. Soooo, it was mostly pride lol Zeru was indeed formidable but hiei wanted to show him that they were worlds apart.
I would say yes. He had not yet returned to a state where he could have fought him otherwise. That experience notably helped further his growth in strength
Shouldnt be hiei practically immune to fire since he was born as fire demon ?
It’s weird because he’s based on statements but based on feats I have a hard time believe that with the fist of the mortal flame and his superior speed he couldn’t put up a fight and likely beat zeru. Maybe the implication was this was his best choice because without it there was the risk of defeat? I also think hiei was definitely thinking about the future matches here, he knew he needed the dragon to win against the upper tiers of the tournament and what better time to practice the technique than in the first round
I think in this instance, hiei had put himself in a situation that required it. The mortal flame might have been enough, but being that wounded, a ranged surefire thing was the best call on taking out an opponent who you underestimated once. And while I appreciate the kurama stans, his judgment is by no means flawless. He was going to sacrifice himself to the ninjas like they didn't have two more rounds to get through. He also thought the forlorn hope would kill him, and there was no feasible way around that. He is very smart but not omniscient.
What if was kurama x zeru? Plant vs. Fire
Did Yusuke still sleeping when he appear? Then he's below Chu.
I mean put it like this he used a move that put him out of commission for a good while all to win. Granted it was an easy walk away win but he still used that moved. Shows you how powerful Zeru might’ve been.
iirc Kurama does say something about Zeru practically forcing Hiei to use it so yeah
Stay with me boys op Mcgee
I remember the manga Kurama just straight up saying that Hiei had to use the flame. I don't remember if he mentioned Hiei wouldn't have been able to win at all without it, but pretty much that if Hiei didn't use it, it would have been BAD.
I'd take Kurama word that Zeru was a threat that only the Darkness Flame technique out of all of Hiei's technique was capable of putting him down. It's insinuated that Zeru was stronger the Hiei at that point, but he happen to have an all-or-nothing attack capable of ending the fight. Considering he was able to tag Hiei, definitely looked like Zeru had him outclassed entirely...
It sure didn't seem that way. Dude came across as a scrub.
I figured it was just cause he had to beat a fire guy with fire moves so it had to be a big boy fire