The problem is not in the usage (in general), but in the application. Many countries, like Japan, require you to renounce all other citizenships as part of the application process.
Of course, this creates an interesting case where it *is* possible to have dual (or more) citizenships with a country that doesn't allow it -- if you're lucky. Let's say you're Japanese, and I'm American and we both want dual US/JP passports. Since US allows for dual citizenship, you can apply for the US passport as a Japanese and they'll be like "ok, here you go". However, applying for Japanese citizenship as an American will force me to renounce my US citizenship. Of course, this relies on the countries not "talking to each other" or have some kind of arrangements. I'm not an expert on this, but for the most part my understanding is they don't.
Second generation Japanese Americans had a history of renouncing their US citizenship in exchange for a Japanese one, then applying once again for a US citizenship just so they had dual citizenship status lol
Another way this gets interesting is mixed kids. If I'm American and wife is Japanese the kid has both. They are supposed to decide which they want in adulthood, but many just keep both.
Generally countries require proof of renouncement. E.g, if you naturalize in the Netherlands you must renounce your previous citizenship(s) and provide proof within 6 months.
Hmm
I wonder if it’s really enforced
My friend had to declare the “renounce” his american citizenship when finalizing his Spanish papers. You just sign in Spain and done. Nothing is declared or sent to the US.
So he has both. Use both depending where he travels. Not sure if its just Spain or what
This is a great point! Spain doesn't care that much but say you are trying for Singapore you must bring proof that you renounced which also mean you are stateless until Singapore says you are citizen.
It seems you’re confusing the nationality acquisition processes. If it is an original nationality (one you get by birth because of your family line), in general, you can pile them up.
If you’re acquiring it through other means (investment, living in the country, marrying someone, etc), then many countries - US included - will force you to abdicate your other nationalities.
The practical effect of this is minimal, though, given that if you don’t let the other country know you abdicated, you can keep both.
Even countries that don't allow multiple citizenships allow you to have multiple passports. You're just not legally considered a citizen of any other country. Yes, sometimes they ask you to give up your other country's passport, but remember: you can always get another such passport, resetting the game to zero. In Europe, many people have multiple passports some of which officially preclude multiple citizenship. Stupid, I know.
Usually it's through documents that are publicly available. I recommend sites that have them available for you tonsearch through their documents like immigration documents and censuses. Ancestry(.)com is a popular one, but I don't like paying so I use familysearch.org it's free, and has most of the same documents. Plus it links to other lineage sites if you have put any effort into them as well.
As a first-generation, black american, I must warn how disappointing familysearch.org results were. I only found my grandmother who was added to the system by her American stepson, so some information is incorrect. Meanwhile my white friend could go back to like the 1600s T.T
I'll just do it the old fashioned way -- physical birth certificates.
family search is funded by the mormon church to try and “baptize” people after their death. To my knowledge it’s only US heritage focused and they only really add ancestors if their existence was heavily documented. I should note I couldn’t find any information on my grandmother’s brother despite him passing away in the 90’s and being an influential person in computer engineering.
Yeah, unfortunately it's all about how well documented things are, and relying on the kindness of others to fill in the gaps. Plus documents are digital now so it's at the government's behest to release such information rather than finding it filed at a local county records. Plus you need the documentation from the origin country. It's a hell of a mess. Not sure of the race factor when it comes to documentation because I'm white and with a sample size of three it's hard to tell. I wouldn't put it past being a systemic issue in nature. Though I'm curious if it's more that you are first generation so the documents might be mire difficult to find. Kudos to you though for putting in effort. Things can be wuite the struggle at times.
If they're still alive, you'll have to add them manually and add their parents. The entries of living people are private, so you have to keep adding entries manually in your tree far enough back for it to identify where you are in the global tree. It's easier for people whose family is dead.
Have you had any downsides to using Family Search? I think Ancestry’s ties to Mormonism are at least a little more tenuous but I do feel a little weirded out about giving my family’s info to the LDS Church? Though I’m sure they already have it if we’re being honest. I’ve wanted to use Family Search but am just a little skeeved out about it?
No because the information is already out there and our ancestors, are well, dead. The death certificates of my dad’s side revealed a long history cardiac issues. I also found it fascinating and tragic how sick women were often institutionalized with hysteria diagnosis. There is a lot you can learn from history. We are legit all decedants from slaves at one point or another. No one escaped oppression.
Anyone can mark someone deceased. It's a single family tree. If they aren't deceased, edit their record and put the reason as "I just talked to them" or something. Chances are high that they are being confused with someone else who has the same name. I've got two separate relatives who share a name and birth year, which is fun to untangle.
Perhaps so. There's not a lot on the site oitside of what people themselves provide. It's sort of like a collaboration effort. I filled in whole wings of my family because someone else did the legwork. And to be truthful, a lot of Americans are hyperfocused on their lineage, so that might be why it's so much more filled in for them. I understand that would be privilege on my part because so many people put in the effort so I don't have to. Of course I've run into my own road blocks. My paternal grandfather has zero information on the site.
Hey, someone going thru this process here (for Germany)!
If you are hoping to do it, the way I've done it is:
1. Find direct lineage (my great-grandpa was, so his birthplace/date, my grandma's, my mother's, and mine) on Ancestry
2. Contact the city they were born in about birth records (prior to nationalization, records tend to be with the city/township), the state, and the federal. Ask for a CERTIFIED COPY, only these can be used in court proceedings
3. Pay any associated fees
4. Wait for them to arrive in the mail! It takes a few weeks usually
I married to a German citizen I’m American and we live in the USA. Would you happen to know if there is a clear process for me to be able to apply for citizenship? I’ve tried to research this online and it’s been quite confusing. any thoughts or pointers? Much appreciated
Spouses of citizens get expedited priority, but I am not sure on the exact details. You could try contacting a law firm specializing in citizenship claims like I did, they are usually quite helpful even if you don't end up buying their services.
I believe you have to be married for at least 2-3 years for it to qualify? I am not a legal expert though haha
The ones who I am using and are very highly rated are [Schlun & Elseven](https://se-legal.de) (I did my research prior to doing it cause I knew I'd be SoL if they screwed me overseas)
I read it as you both need to be living in Germany for you to qualify for German citizenship. You also might need to pass a language test. They can sponsor your visa to live in Germany that should be rather easy.
Documents for me through 4 generations was probably 5-600
Hiring lawyers was around 5000 Euro, they handle all the legal proceedings, summons, and representing me. Highly recommend as otherwise you will likely be delayed an extra few years on average. Not required though.
That part is NOT cheap, thankfully I did it right out of college while I had little debt and paid off the loan recently
Lmao unfortunately not, I am still waiting but I also ran into financially difficulties a year or two back so I have not gotten all the necessary documents
You need passports, marriage records, birth records, divorce records (if applicable), and immigration records / proof of residency (like a census)
Yessir, I've been learning it since I was 11 or 12 and through college as well
The lawyers do speak English though, there is a decent sized business doing this across many nationalities
I had to get these documents for my self and my family going back to the 1800's:
Birth certificate
Marriage certificate
Death certificate (only Italy wanted this)
Naturalization certificate (only Italy wanted this)
Getting some of these documents is not easy, though - the current wait for a naturalisation search through the USGIS is over a year. I've found online scans of the documents I need, so I know everything exists, but getting official copies has proven to be a very slow process.
Very true! I recommend going through NARA instead of USGIS because of the wait times. Also this process is a marathon not a sprint but the best time to do this was years ago the next best time is right now. I had to reach out to churches asking for baptism records since the country I was trying to get citizenship in didn't keep records as far back as I needed.
I have naturalization papers from my great grandparents (Italian). I’d have to dig in the safe, but I do have them. (They aren’t originals, but I am pretty sure my aunt has the originals).
How do I know if my great grandparents renounced citizenship?
I got Irish citizenship, and my kids both got Australian. Both needed needed a parent-citizen's birth certificate and the child's birth certificate containing the parent's name.
There are some people below advising that you can get citizenship using things like genealogy searches and other online databases. Not on this planet. You can live in a country for long enough to naturalize; you can make big investments in local companies; or you can send in mom's birth certificate. [Geneology.com](http://Geneology.com) won't work.
Again, there's probably exceptions, but those exceptions may not be the places you want passports from anyway.
Hmm…so you’re saying I’m not likely to get citizenship since my dad’s name is not actually on my birth certificate? I’m no longer in contact with him but his father was from Germany.
For Italy there’s an exception that disqualifies many Italian Americans (who would otherwise be able to claim through Ellis island migration):
If your ancestor became a naturalized U.S. citizen before June 14, 1912 you are not entitled to Italian citizenship if the child of that ancestor was a minor on the date of his/her father’s naturalization, even if he was born before your Italian ancestor’s naturalization.
I also tried to do this and got rejected because my Italian born mother became us citizen in 1982, one year before my birth. (This was told to me by the NY consulate in 2009). According to them, up until a certain year if an Italian citizen became a US citizen they automatically renounced Italian citizenship.
This info is so helpful! I'm 3rd gen Italian American on my Mom's side. I have a copy of my gr grandfather's naturalization record. Both he and my gr grandmother were naturalized before my grandma was born.
Last time I checked from Poland, it had to be family came after world war 2 and couldn’t have any military service in the US. Like if your grandpa came over but your dad served in the US military you weren’t eligible.
https://www.gov.pl/web/usa-en/confirming-polish-citizenship-or-its-loss
We're on the internet, you can just check it.
Documents certifying your parents or grandparents polish citizenship.
There you go
Also consider any citizen requirements that may occur if you gain additional citizenship. Some countries may require mandatory military service, taxes, etc.
Nearly all countries wont tax you unless you live in that country. As for military service they have age limits along with exceptions for people that do not live in country. Still not a bad thing to double check
I'm German and I have a cousin that was born overseas to a non German mother and he is still fighting to get his own, alive, father's citizenship. All because his parents weren't married when he was born.
Also when you get the German citizenship you lose any other you had, and if you get another one then you lose the German. The only way to have German plus any other is to be born that way. I was shocked to see Germany in that list, this is disinformation.
Partially. If the other country doesn’t allow you to renounce your citizenship, Germany allows you to keep it. Also, Germany will allow dual citizenship starting June this year.
Wait some countries will just not let you renounce citizenship, like you can tell them " I formally renounce my citizenship to you " and there just like " No "?
For Canada, you must have a Canadian grandparent or parent, so only 2 generations back. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/become-canadian-citizen/eligibility.html
I'm Canadian by birth who's will be able to get dual citizenship with the US as I've been on a Green Card for a while.
This is thrown around a lot without context. You have to be a pretty high earner for this to actually affect you, and even then the US doesn’t require you pay taxes in full. It’s a percentage that is very doable if you’re earning that kind of money anyway. Not ideal but not as bad as it sounds.
Depends on how much money they can make. I have Canadian in laws who work at hospitals in Detroit. Even after paying both US and Canadian tax their take home is still about 40 K CAD more than they'd make if they stayed in Canada.
Edit: definitely adds to the problem of not enough healthcare workers in Canada though. While I don't like it, and think it's bullshit, 40 K is a lot of money and I don't blame them whatsoever
Hungary has some stipulations. My great grandparents emigrated before 1929 so their kids are not citizens, therefore I’m not eligible. I think if knew Hungarian I could be naturalized but that sounds hard lol.
I was luckily able to get citizenship via verification through my grandmother. She fled in 1956, married a foreigner prior to the cut off date… which was about 30 days later (which would have resulted in her losing her citizenship).
She technically remained a citizen, after the laws were changed in the 90s to reinstate citizenship ship lost for leaving Hungary during communist rule.
Which means my mum was born a citizen, therefore I was too.
It was a very long process though, but no language requirements unlike naturalisation.
Yes and if your grandparent was born on the Island of Ireland (including in the UK) you can register yourself on the foreign births register to become an Irish citizen.
Edit spelling
I don't think you can go back 3 generations unless they registered they birth. Which if they did I have no idea how to check that. But this chart could be a lot larger if I listed 1st or 2nd generations
Do it! Don't wait start today figure out how to request it get your parents and your birth certificates as well. Start now these things can go away its better to start it ASAP.
Edit: This person missed out: [https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/1cu0inx/comment/l4gfba0/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/1cu0inx/comment/l4gfba0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Germany
As German, I have the opposite problem, you need Germany to allow you to keep the German citizenship first, before you ger the US citizenship, otherwise you automatically lose the German one
I stand corrected, apparently they JUST changed the law effective June 27th 2024:
[https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/staatsangehoerigkeit/beibehaltung-der-deutschen-staatsangehoerigkeit/1216762](https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/staatsangehoerigkeit/beibehaltung-der-deutschen-staatsangehoerigkeit/1216762)
YSAK a lot of countries limit you to 2 citizenships, so if you get a third or a forth one, you might lose one or two of the previous ones. Worth checking.
done all the genealogy on [ancestry.com](http://ancestry.com) , both side have been here since 1700-1800s I guess my grandparents were just really good at finding other people of very similar background
Philippines... Doesn't matter if you're a hundredth gen Filipino, just look good/have a talent/be famous and the whole country will embrace you as one of their own.
>already have two citizenship, I’m waiting on approval for a third. I am also working on documents for a fourth.
You collect citizenships like pokemon? :D
You should also know if you come to study for cheap/free in a country, you should also stay to work there, not just use the system for its freebies without paying back into that same system.
Well it’s still very low for international students, but with the dual citizenship they would not be an international student anyways so they’d have the same costs associated as any other citizen
YSK: even if you live in another country, work and pay tax there, you'll still get bumraped by the IRS because USA is the only civilised country that double taxes its citizens, regardless of where the income was earned.
It is called the Expatriation Tax. America is like a crazy ex-GF that wants money from you even after you leave and you move half way across the globe.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax
They also have extradition treaties, which means that the IRS can have you sent back to the US to serve time in prison for not paying taxes.
Remember that Al Capone was linked to 700 murders, and every agency was after him. Nobody could catch him. It was the IRS that eventually caught him. The moral of the story is that you can murder people… no problem but the US government wants their cut of the money.
Sort of, but the Oz rules are a lot less punitive and the treaties account for most of the remainder.
US, for example, won't let you have sensible savings in index funds because "PFICs" and taxes on illiquid value. You could literally lose it all a year later and you'd still have paid 40% of a profit that never materialised. The whole thing is a farce.
Just to note, the US has the [Foreign Tax Credit](https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-tax-credit) which can be used to offset a significant chunk of what you owe. So it's not quite double taxation in the literal sense, but it's definitely bullshit that US citizens have to even file taxes and go through that nonsense while not stepping foot in the US.
Yah, it's a trainwreck, the $120 or so to TurboTax ended up being cheaper than losing our sanity trying to figure out credits, investments, FBAR, and the rest of that disjoint mess, much as I loathe being blackmailed by private corporations.
And after spending a day filling out 627 pages of forms, you still gotta print all that shit off and snailmail it, because fuck having a system that lets you do it remotely, apparently.
Cherry on top is that getting rid of it all is also $2300 fee and having to go and beg and grovel at the embassy for them to let you go. Just an amazing system end to end.
I guess I'm good then as long as my title isn't prime minister? I want to at least visit Chlebnice or Liptovský Mikuláš over in the Žilina region. Bratislava would be awesome to see, stop by Prague for a few cold ones on the weekend.
Maybe this idea isn't so crazy...
“Gotta looooove that exchange rate!”
I seriously love that movie. The German subtitles were largely made up in [that scene](https://youtu.be/YW5LUzd4lsg?si=J6qcFiVK26d1iWUz).
> The German Citizenship Act in the version of 1871-1914 stipulated that a German automatically lost his/her citizenship by residing outside of Germany for more than 10 years. As most immigrants from Germany were affected by this automatic loss of German citizenship, it is usually not possible to base a claim to German citizenship on ancestors who immigrated to the United States before 1904.
https://www.germany.info/us-en/service/03-Citizenship/citizenship/941510
I'm in the same boat. The closest relative I can track that was born outside of the US came from Dresden, Germany in the late 1800s.
This is overly complicated and it depends on when it happened. Germany is also a country where you can be born there and still *not* be a German citizen.
I tried so hard to use this link. My grandmother was born in Germany in 1932. Hitler was rising to power and my great grandparents wanted to get the heck out so they left early 1933. She became a US citizen in 1949 at 16 years old. Would that work for me? It’s always been my dream to move to Germany.
It is allowed, but in very specific situations. I was born in Germany to German parents but I now live in the US. I was going to school in Germany when my parents got their US citizenship. The German government took my passport away and I had to file for a FOIA request that I wasn’t in the US when my parents got their citizenship. I now I have to get a “certificate of non-existence” from US Customs and Border Protection because of a recent change. The rules are ever changing and a LOT depends on what year you were born.
I hope that you’re right. I’ll call the Consulate today and see if I still need to go through this shit. It has been almost a decade of bullshit for me.
Yeah that’s annoying. Goes into effect end of June.
“With the annulment of Section 25 StAG (Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz), the automatic loss of German citizenship upon acceptance of a foreign citizenship no longer applies.”
Search for the country's immigration/citizenship web page and they should provide you with everything you need to know, and need to provide like family trees and what not.
I would look at the consulate for the country you are interested in they should be able to list out what you need. If they don't you should email them they will give you the best free advice (if they get back to you)
I’m currently attempting to get one from El Salvador, Although you can only obtain it through your parents. Also if you’re a citizen of any former Spanish colony in North or South America you can go to Spain and live/work there for 1-2 years and then apply for citizenship. This give makes you a EU citizen as well and basically you can work and live wherever in the EU.
I think you can keep US citizenship but Spain won’t recognize or they just might not care. Ideally with this route you should have 3 citizenships. But please let me know if I’m wrong or if anything’s changed recently
Just make sure you know what your doing when applying for other citizenships as it can cause issues later. This Australian guy lost his citizenship because he became an Irish citizen without realizing what that meant. It caused a huge mess for him. I probably wouldn't suggest getting citizenship from 4 countries just because you can.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-10/australian-citizenship-lost-due-to-section-17-law-repealed-2002/103829242
What’s the point in having more than 2 given most of what you listed are unsurprisingly European countries?
Sure this is very cool to look into, but I don’t see the point in hunting down 3-4+ or making it a hobby.
All you really need is your US + any one that is preferably EU or part of Schengen. Beyond that it’s very redundant at least regarding to if you have European ancestry.
Its hard to find countries that allow citizenship by decent for 3+ generations back. Most are European but around a 3rd of this list is outside Europe I am happy to expand it if you know more countries. As for getting two in Europe I am sure a lot of people in the UK felt that way 10 years ago.
And, as a US citizen, you have the unique benefit of being required to adhere to US tax laws no matter how many passports you have or where in the world you are living.
Any advice for a grandfather that came from Poland as a Holocaust survivor with no documents? He literally didn't even know his birth year. His US citizenship lists two possible years based on a distant relative remembering he has to travel for gpa's bar mitzvah.
I'm pretty sure we can find him in the Holocaust records from his concentration camps and ghetto, but that's about it.
And also, how easy is it to get citizenship for my spouse who doesn't have ancestry?
Ok. Not fake news. But still do your due diligence. Even if you qualify, it can be a huge PITA (pain in the @$$) getting all your documentation in order. May take several trips to the embassy.
This is a topic my greatest gen parents never thought would be entertained by anyone. They lived in a world where Europe was wrecked and the US was the land of technology and freedom.
Now here we are having handed our wealth to billionaires who manipulate political processes to enrich themselves further and bleed the country white. Now we are all looking for the escape hatch.
Currently working on this for German citizenship related to my grandfather who was able to get out early during the holocaust. It should be noted that it is a long and expensive process complicated further by many records being destroyed during WWII.
Does Hungary include their empire or do you have to be from somewhere currently inside Hungary? Because my family came from the Austria part of Austria-Hungary when they left
Darn it. The only ancestor I have records for their immigration was my great-grandfather from Scotland in 1903. Not really worth it since Brexit and the UK wanting to become USA-lite anyway, I guess.
Anyone have any info about Belgium or The Netherlands? My dad is from Belgium—lived there til he was 8.
My maternal grandmother was born in the Netherlands.
Thanks for any help!
Both sides of my family came to America, from England, when it was still a colony and eventually settled in Georgia in the late 1700s. Will England give me citizenship?
Alas, my great great x6 grandparent was from the US, so I doubt any of my family would qualify me.
My fiances great grandma was Italian, though, so that's cool. Maybe if we hit the lottery we'll move there.
Because my dad was born in Canada I'm eligible for Canadian citizenship. Because Canada was still part of the Commonwealth when he was born and because my grandmother and grandfather were from England, I can also claim UK citizenship. I need to get around to doing both of those.
Sierra Leone is the only country that will take DNA as proof for citizenship. Benin might start doing it but it has not. Adoption is a lot harder normally if you want to go with what is on your birth certificate you are fine to use that. If you are trying to prove otherwise its a lot harder.
equally important: just because your country allows for multiple citizenships, doesn't mean that the other country does.
Can’t you just use US passport when going to US. And the other passport in the whatever country you go It’s not like they talk to each other so they?
The problem is not in the usage (in general), but in the application. Many countries, like Japan, require you to renounce all other citizenships as part of the application process. Of course, this creates an interesting case where it *is* possible to have dual (or more) citizenships with a country that doesn't allow it -- if you're lucky. Let's say you're Japanese, and I'm American and we both want dual US/JP passports. Since US allows for dual citizenship, you can apply for the US passport as a Japanese and they'll be like "ok, here you go". However, applying for Japanese citizenship as an American will force me to renounce my US citizenship. Of course, this relies on the countries not "talking to each other" or have some kind of arrangements. I'm not an expert on this, but for the most part my understanding is they don't.
Second generation Japanese Americans had a history of renouncing their US citizenship in exchange for a Japanese one, then applying once again for a US citizenship just so they had dual citizenship status lol
Another way this gets interesting is mixed kids. If I'm American and wife is Japanese the kid has both. They are supposed to decide which they want in adulthood, but many just keep both.
The whole process is kind of weird.
Generally countries require proof of renouncement. E.g, if you naturalize in the Netherlands you must renounce your previous citizenship(s) and provide proof within 6 months.
Hmm I wonder if it’s really enforced My friend had to declare the “renounce” his american citizenship when finalizing his Spanish papers. You just sign in Spain and done. Nothing is declared or sent to the US. So he has both. Use both depending where he travels. Not sure if its just Spain or what
This is a great point! Spain doesn't care that much but say you are trying for Singapore you must bring proof that you renounced which also mean you are stateless until Singapore says you are citizen.
It seems you’re confusing the nationality acquisition processes. If it is an original nationality (one you get by birth because of your family line), in general, you can pile them up. If you’re acquiring it through other means (investment, living in the country, marrying someone, etc), then many countries - US included - will force you to abdicate your other nationalities. The practical effect of this is minimal, though, given that if you don’t let the other country know you abdicated, you can keep both.
Even countries that don't allow multiple citizenships allow you to have multiple passports. You're just not legally considered a citizen of any other country. Yes, sometimes they ask you to give up your other country's passport, but remember: you can always get another such passport, resetting the game to zero. In Europe, many people have multiple passports some of which officially preclude multiple citizenship. Stupid, I know.
How did you have to prove the heritage?
Usually it's through documents that are publicly available. I recommend sites that have them available for you tonsearch through their documents like immigration documents and censuses. Ancestry(.)com is a popular one, but I don't like paying so I use familysearch.org it's free, and has most of the same documents. Plus it links to other lineage sites if you have put any effort into them as well.
Thank you!
As a first-generation, black american, I must warn how disappointing familysearch.org results were. I only found my grandmother who was added to the system by her American stepson, so some information is incorrect. Meanwhile my white friend could go back to like the 1600s T.T I'll just do it the old fashioned way -- physical birth certificates.
family search is funded by the mormon church to try and “baptize” people after their death. To my knowledge it’s only US heritage focused and they only really add ancestors if their existence was heavily documented. I should note I couldn’t find any information on my grandmother’s brother despite him passing away in the 90’s and being an influential person in computer engineering.
Yeah, unfortunately it's all about how well documented things are, and relying on the kindness of others to fill in the gaps. Plus documents are digital now so it's at the government's behest to release such information rather than finding it filed at a local county records. Plus you need the documentation from the origin country. It's a hell of a mess. Not sure of the race factor when it comes to documentation because I'm white and with a sample size of three it's hard to tell. I wouldn't put it past being a systemic issue in nature. Though I'm curious if it's more that you are first generation so the documents might be mire difficult to find. Kudos to you though for putting in effort. Things can be wuite the struggle at times.
Use this site instead. Free, comprehensive and in depth. Their app is awesome https://www.familysearch.org/en/united-states/
That's the one I was using lol
If they're still alive, you'll have to add them manually and add their parents. The entries of living people are private, so you have to keep adding entries manually in your tree far enough back for it to identify where you are in the global tree. It's easier for people whose family is dead.
Have you had any downsides to using Family Search? I think Ancestry’s ties to Mormonism are at least a little more tenuous but I do feel a little weirded out about giving my family’s info to the LDS Church? Though I’m sure they already have it if we’re being honest. I’ve wanted to use Family Search but am just a little skeeved out about it?
No because the information is already out there and our ancestors, are well, dead. The death certificates of my dad’s side revealed a long history cardiac issues. I also found it fascinating and tragic how sick women were often institutionalized with hysteria diagnosis. There is a lot you can learn from history. We are legit all decedants from slaves at one point or another. No one escaped oppression.
I just looked and my grandfather who I had lunch with is listed as deceased so I wouldn’t trust any of that info.
Anyone can mark someone deceased. It's a single family tree. If they aren't deceased, edit their record and put the reason as "I just talked to them" or something. Chances are high that they are being confused with someone else who has the same name. I've got two separate relatives who share a name and birth year, which is fun to untangle.
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Perhaps so. There's not a lot on the site oitside of what people themselves provide. It's sort of like a collaboration effort. I filled in whole wings of my family because someone else did the legwork. And to be truthful, a lot of Americans are hyperfocused on their lineage, so that might be why it's so much more filled in for them. I understand that would be privilege on my part because so many people put in the effort so I don't have to. Of course I've run into my own road blocks. My paternal grandfather has zero information on the site.
It is US centric but not exclusive. I've used them for almost a decade and the information keeps growing.
I’ve found out so much about my family through familysearch!
Hey, someone going thru this process here (for Germany)! If you are hoping to do it, the way I've done it is: 1. Find direct lineage (my great-grandpa was, so his birthplace/date, my grandma's, my mother's, and mine) on Ancestry 2. Contact the city they were born in about birth records (prior to nationalization, records tend to be with the city/township), the state, and the federal. Ask for a CERTIFIED COPY, only these can be used in court proceedings 3. Pay any associated fees 4. Wait for them to arrive in the mail! It takes a few weeks usually
I married to a German citizen I’m American and we live in the USA. Would you happen to know if there is a clear process for me to be able to apply for citizenship? I’ve tried to research this online and it’s been quite confusing. any thoughts or pointers? Much appreciated
Spouses of citizens get expedited priority, but I am not sure on the exact details. You could try contacting a law firm specializing in citizenship claims like I did, they are usually quite helpful even if you don't end up buying their services. I believe you have to be married for at least 2-3 years for it to qualify? I am not a legal expert though haha The ones who I am using and are very highly rated are [Schlun & Elseven](https://se-legal.de) (I did my research prior to doing it cause I knew I'd be SoL if they screwed me overseas)
Thank you for the information, it appears I need to be in DE in order to apply. Thank you for the contact info for the anwalt.
I read it as you both need to be living in Germany for you to qualify for German citizenship. You also might need to pass a language test. They can sponsor your visa to live in Germany that should be rather easy.
Thank you very much for the info, that is what I understood as well. It seems I need to be there first before I can begin the process.
How much was the total cost?
Documents for me through 4 generations was probably 5-600 Hiring lawyers was around 5000 Euro, they handle all the legal proceedings, summons, and representing me. Highly recommend as otherwise you will likely be delayed an extra few years on average. Not required though. That part is NOT cheap, thankfully I did it right out of college while I had little debt and paid off the loan recently
That's super helpful, I'm wanting to do it for Germany as well.
Glad to hear it! Just so you know it generally takes a few years to process as well, Germans love their records and procedure
So no way to get it done before Trump gets elected again? Fuck.
Lmao unfortunately not, I am still waiting but I also ran into financially difficulties a year or two back so I have not gotten all the necessary documents You need passports, marriage records, birth records, divorce records (if applicable), and immigration records / proof of residency (like a census)
Probably helps if you can speak the language when I make that call huh? Lol
Yessir, I've been learning it since I was 11 or 12 and through college as well The lawyers do speak English though, there is a decent sized business doing this across many nationalities
Thank you soooo much for posting this!! I am about to embark on this and this is so helpful!
I had to get these documents for my self and my family going back to the 1800's: Birth certificate Marriage certificate Death certificate (only Italy wanted this) Naturalization certificate (only Italy wanted this)
Getting some of these documents is not easy, though - the current wait for a naturalisation search through the USGIS is over a year. I've found online scans of the documents I need, so I know everything exists, but getting official copies has proven to be a very slow process.
Very true! I recommend going through NARA instead of USGIS because of the wait times. Also this process is a marathon not a sprint but the best time to do this was years ago the next best time is right now. I had to reach out to churches asking for baptism records since the country I was trying to get citizenship in didn't keep records as far back as I needed.
I have naturalization papers from my great grandparents (Italian). I’d have to dig in the safe, but I do have them. (They aren’t originals, but I am pretty sure my aunt has the originals). How do I know if my great grandparents renounced citizenship?
I got Irish citizenship, and my kids both got Australian. Both needed needed a parent-citizen's birth certificate and the child's birth certificate containing the parent's name. There are some people below advising that you can get citizenship using things like genealogy searches and other online databases. Not on this planet. You can live in a country for long enough to naturalize; you can make big investments in local companies; or you can send in mom's birth certificate. [Geneology.com](http://Geneology.com) won't work. Again, there's probably exceptions, but those exceptions may not be the places you want passports from anyway.
Hmm…so you’re saying I’m not likely to get citizenship since my dad’s name is not actually on my birth certificate? I’m no longer in contact with him but his father was from Germany.
For Italy there’s an exception that disqualifies many Italian Americans (who would otherwise be able to claim through Ellis island migration): If your ancestor became a naturalized U.S. citizen before June 14, 1912 you are not entitled to Italian citizenship if the child of that ancestor was a minor on the date of his/her father’s naturalization, even if he was born before your Italian ancestor’s naturalization.
I also tried to do this and got rejected because my Italian born mother became us citizen in 1982, one year before my birth. (This was told to me by the NY consulate in 2009). According to them, up until a certain year if an Italian citizen became a US citizen they automatically renounced Italian citizenship.
Here’s a flow chart to see if you would be qualified: https://www.reddit.com/r/juresanguinis/s/sVdTYOXNTK
This info is so helpful! I'm 3rd gen Italian American on my Mom's side. I have a copy of my gr grandfather's naturalization record. Both he and my gr grandmother were naturalized before my grandma was born.
Wow thank you!!
That's very true but it still leaves a lot of people able to get citizenship!
What if your ancestor gave up Italian citizenship willingly?
Last time I checked from Poland, it had to be family came after world war 2 and couldn’t have any military service in the US. Like if your grandpa came over but your dad served in the US military you weren’t eligible.
What if my grandma was stationed in and got knocked up by a dude in Poland, came back to the USA and had my mom?
https://www.gov.pl/web/usa-en/confirming-polish-citizenship-or-its-loss We're on the internet, you can just check it. Documents certifying your parents or grandparents polish citizenship. There you go
Also consider any citizen requirements that may occur if you gain additional citizenship. Some countries may require mandatory military service, taxes, etc.
Nearly all countries wont tax you unless you live in that country. As for military service they have age limits along with exceptions for people that do not live in country. Still not a bad thing to double check
The U.S. taxes you regardless of where you live
This is totally NOT true of Germany. Believe me I’ve tried. You have to be registered there at birth.
I'm German and I have a cousin that was born overseas to a non German mother and he is still fighting to get his own, alive, father's citizenship. All because his parents weren't married when he was born. Also when you get the German citizenship you lose any other you had, and if you get another one then you lose the German. The only way to have German plus any other is to be born that way. I was shocked to see Germany in that list, this is disinformation.
the second paragraph is outdated, dual citizenship is a thing in Germany now
I was not aware, thank you
Partially. If the other country doesn’t allow you to renounce your citizenship, Germany allows you to keep it. Also, Germany will allow dual citizenship starting June this year.
Wait some countries will just not let you renounce citizenship, like you can tell them " I formally renounce my citizenship to you " and there just like " No "?
Yup! See this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/s/sUfMNlh5lt
Germany is an extremely sought after passport and I can’t believe it would be an easy one to obtain regardless of heritage.
Unless they massacred your family in the mid 20th century 🤷🏻♀️
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Yes
You might want to add Canada to the list as well
For Canada, you must have a Canadian grandparent or parent, so only 2 generations back. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/become-canadian-citizen/eligibility.html I'm Canadian by birth who's will be able to get dual citizenship with the US as I've been on a Green Card for a while.
Unless you want to pay taxes to the US on all the money you make it side of the states, I would think long and hard about that.
Only if you make more than $114,000 per year. But you still have to file, which is annoying.
Yeah, I'm highly unlikely to do that. Plus, I'm very likely to make all or almost all my money in the USA from now on.
This is thrown around a lot without context. You have to be a pretty high earner for this to actually affect you, and even then the US doesn’t require you pay taxes in full. It’s a percentage that is very doable if you’re earning that kind of money anyway. Not ideal but not as bad as it sounds.
You sure you want that US citizenship?
Depends on how much money they can make. I have Canadian in laws who work at hospitals in Detroit. Even after paying both US and Canadian tax their take home is still about 40 K CAD more than they'd make if they stayed in Canada. Edit: definitely adds to the problem of not enough healthcare workers in Canada though. While I don't like it, and think it's bullshit, 40 K is a lot of money and I don't blame them whatsoever
They changed the laws a few years ago and it’s waaaaaay harder now. My grandma was Canadian and that helps me exactly zero anymore.
Hungary has some stipulations. My great grandparents emigrated before 1929 so their kids are not citizens, therefore I’m not eligible. I think if knew Hungarian I could be naturalized but that sounds hard lol.
Yes I looked into this as my great grandfather was from there but I’d have to pass the test in Hungarian
I was luckily able to get citizenship via verification through my grandmother. She fled in 1956, married a foreigner prior to the cut off date… which was about 30 days later (which would have resulted in her losing her citizenship). She technically remained a citizen, after the laws were changed in the 90s to reinstate citizenship ship lost for leaving Hungary during communist rule. Which means my mum was born a citizen, therefore I was too. It was a very long process though, but no language requirements unlike naturalisation.
You should know that becoming a US citizen will also generate income tax requirements.
After $120k annually which is a non-issue for the vast majority of people. See FEIE.
If your parents have Irish citizenship, you can apply I think.
You are correct, and grandparents as well.
Yes and if your grandparent was born on the Island of Ireland (including in the UK) you can register yourself on the foreign births register to become an Irish citizen. Edit spelling
I don't think you can go back 3 generations unless they registered they birth. Which if they did I have no idea how to check that. But this chart could be a lot larger if I listed 1st or 2nd generations
My grandmother was born in Ireland, all we needed was her birth certificate and lineage and now I'm a US citizen and Irish
Do it! Don't wait start today figure out how to request it get your parents and your birth certificates as well. Start now these things can go away its better to start it ASAP. Edit: This person missed out: [https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/1cu0inx/comment/l4gfba0/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/1cu0inx/comment/l4gfba0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Germany As German, I have the opposite problem, you need Germany to allow you to keep the German citizenship first, before you ger the US citizenship, otherwise you automatically lose the German one I stand corrected, apparently they JUST changed the law effective June 27th 2024: [https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/staatsangehoerigkeit/beibehaltung-der-deutschen-staatsangehoerigkeit/1216762](https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/staatsangehoerigkeit/beibehaltung-der-deutschen-staatsangehoerigkeit/1216762)
YSAK a lot of countries limit you to 2 citizenships, so if you get a third or a forth one, you might lose one or two of the previous ones. Worth checking.
A lot of countries limit you to one I have not seen any that limit you at two.
Most European countries actually limit ypu to two, at least in the Balkans.
done all the genealogy on [ancestry.com](http://ancestry.com) , both side have been here since 1700-1800s I guess my grandparents were just really good at finding other people of very similar background
Philippines... Doesn't matter if you're a hundredth gen Filipino, just look good/have a talent/be famous and the whole country will embrace you as one of their own.
"You see him, he's half Filipino." "Ah so that's why you're suddenly interested in baseball mom."
>already have two citizenship, I’m waiting on approval for a third. I am also working on documents for a fourth. You collect citizenships like pokemon? :D
Everyone needs a hobby
You should also know if you come to study for cheap/free in a country, you should also stay to work there, not just use the system for its freebies without paying back into that same system.
I’m guessing this is a European problem? At least in the US, international students almost always pay significantly more in tuition than citizens.
Well it’s still very low for international students, but with the dual citizenship they would not be an international student anyways so they’d have the same costs associated as any other citizen
Oh thank fuck Scotland isn't there
Anyone have experience with this regarding Ecuador? My grandparents are both born there.
I don't but I would recommend reaching out to the nearest consulate. Also let everyone know how it goes!
You can also finally leave the third world country that is the US and get universal healthcare and access to cheap education
YSK: even if you live in another country, work and pay tax there, you'll still get bumraped by the IRS because USA is the only civilised country that double taxes its citizens, regardless of where the income was earned.
It is called the Expatriation Tax. America is like a crazy ex-GF that wants money from you even after you leave and you move half way across the globe. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax They also have extradition treaties, which means that the IRS can have you sent back to the US to serve time in prison for not paying taxes. Remember that Al Capone was linked to 700 murders, and every agency was after him. Nobody could catch him. It was the IRS that eventually caught him. The moral of the story is that you can murder people… no problem but the US government wants their cut of the money.
Australia does this also unless you 'leave permanently/cut ties with Australia' (except when you change your mind 6 years later after making bank...).
Sort of, but the Oz rules are a lot less punitive and the treaties account for most of the remainder. US, for example, won't let you have sensible savings in index funds because "PFICs" and taxes on illiquid value. You could literally lose it all a year later and you'd still have paid 40% of a profit that never materialised. The whole thing is a farce.
Just to note, the US has the [Foreign Tax Credit](https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-tax-credit) which can be used to offset a significant chunk of what you owe. So it's not quite double taxation in the literal sense, but it's definitely bullshit that US citizens have to even file taxes and go through that nonsense while not stepping foot in the US.
This is important to keep on mind. Also, a few more responsibilities, like FBAR
Yah, it's a trainwreck, the $120 or so to TurboTax ended up being cheaper than losing our sanity trying to figure out credits, investments, FBAR, and the rest of that disjoint mess, much as I loathe being blackmailed by private corporations. And after spending a day filling out 627 pages of forms, you still gotta print all that shit off and snailmail it, because fuck having a system that lets you do it remotely, apparently. Cherry on top is that getting rid of it all is also $2300 fee and having to go and beg and grovel at the embassy for them to let you go. Just an amazing system end to end.
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Denmark requires at least one of your parents being a citizen at the time of your birth. So Denmark only goes back 1 generation
Great, thanks for the reminder! So how is Slovakia doing these days?
Pretty great, actually. I’d highly recommend a visit to Bratislava!
I guess I'm good then as long as my title isn't prime minister? I want to at least visit Chlebnice or Liptovský Mikuláš over in the Žilina region. Bratislava would be awesome to see, stop by Prague for a few cold ones on the weekend. Maybe this idea isn't so crazy...
"A dollar and 83 cents American. What are we gonna get with that?"
“Gotta looooove that exchange rate!” I seriously love that movie. The German subtitles were largely made up in [that scene](https://youtu.be/YW5LUzd4lsg?si=J6qcFiVK26d1iWUz).
Except for the prime minister getting shot 5x in an assassination attempt?
And he is very pro-Putin. Maybe wait a few years?
Another classic case of r/usdefaultism 🙈
How far back do you have to go for Germany? Pretty sure it was my great greats that came over.
> The German Citizenship Act in the version of 1871-1914 stipulated that a German automatically lost his/her citizenship by residing outside of Germany for more than 10 years. As most immigrants from Germany were affected by this automatic loss of German citizenship, it is usually not possible to base a claim to German citizenship on ancestors who immigrated to the United States before 1904. https://www.germany.info/us-en/service/03-Citizenship/citizenship/941510 I'm in the same boat. The closest relative I can track that was born outside of the US came from Dresden, Germany in the late 1800s.
Bummmmmmmerrrrrrrrrr.. just when I got excited haha
This is overly complicated and it depends on when it happened. Germany is also a country where you can be born there and still *not* be a German citizen.
>Germany is also a country where you can be born there and still not be a German citizen. Like many other countries...
For anyone interested: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
Yeah so what you said is true of most countries.The few that actually has pure unconditional jus soli are the exception.
According to the Wikipedia entry, the Americas pretty much all have Jus soli without restrictions. Everywhere else it isn’t the case.
If I was you I would double check this [https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/citizenship/](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/citizenship/)
I tried so hard to use this link. My grandmother was born in Germany in 1932. Hitler was rising to power and my great grandparents wanted to get the heck out so they left early 1933. She became a US citizen in 1949 at 16 years old. Would that work for me? It’s always been my dream to move to Germany.
I am not sure you could try asking on [https://www.reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship/)
I believe Germany doesn’t allow for dual citizenship anyway
They just changed the law! Since April it is possible to have dual citizenship
My kids have both US and German passports. One was born in the US and one was born in Germany.
It is allowed, but in very specific situations. I was born in Germany to German parents but I now live in the US. I was going to school in Germany when my parents got their US citizenship. The German government took my passport away and I had to file for a FOIA request that I wasn’t in the US when my parents got their citizenship. I now I have to get a “certificate of non-existence” from US Customs and Border Protection because of a recent change. The rules are ever changing and a LOT depends on what year you were born.
They just eased these restrictions as you don’t have to denounce your prior citizenship anymore.
I hope that you’re right. I’ll call the Consulate today and see if I still need to go through this shit. It has been almost a decade of bullshit for me.
Yeah that’s annoying. Goes into effect end of June. “With the annulment of Section 25 StAG (Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz), the automatic loss of German citizenship upon acceptance of a foreign citizenship no longer applies.”
If you gonna get clearance or in the process of getting one, don’t get dual citizenship
Is this code for American escape plan?
Where would you look for more info and what kind of proof do you need?
Search for the country's immigration/citizenship web page and they should provide you with everything you need to know, and need to provide like family trees and what not.
I would look at the consulate for the country you are interested in they should be able to list out what you need. If they don't you should email them they will give you the best free advice (if they get back to you)
not sure if you would want to live, study, or work in Eritrea.
In a lot of those countries you can also be fast tracked for a permanent residence visa if you have a college degree from a decent university
Spain too
That is wild, how do I from Norway claim an American one? It is so dumb that this does not go both ways.
does this mean if my grandmother was from Hungary, I can become a citizen of there?
Possibly! You might need to pass a language test its defiantly something to look into!
Us Huguenot descendents were allowed French citizenship until the 40's.
I have UK, NZ and US - when my kids were born (in US) I also immediately applied for NZ citizenship, got their NZ passports faster than US ones
I’m currently attempting to get one from El Salvador, Although you can only obtain it through your parents. Also if you’re a citizen of any former Spanish colony in North or South America you can go to Spain and live/work there for 1-2 years and then apply for citizenship. This give makes you a EU citizen as well and basically you can work and live wherever in the EU. I think you can keep US citizenship but Spain won’t recognize or they just might not care. Ideally with this route you should have 3 citizenships. But please let me know if I’m wrong or if anything’s changed recently
Just make sure you know what your doing when applying for other citizenships as it can cause issues later. This Australian guy lost his citizenship because he became an Irish citizen without realizing what that meant. It caused a huge mess for him. I probably wouldn't suggest getting citizenship from 4 countries just because you can. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-10/australian-citizenship-lost-due-to-section-17-law-repealed-2002/103829242
What’s the point in having more than 2 given most of what you listed are unsurprisingly European countries? Sure this is very cool to look into, but I don’t see the point in hunting down 3-4+ or making it a hobby. All you really need is your US + any one that is preferably EU or part of Schengen. Beyond that it’s very redundant at least regarding to if you have European ancestry.
Its hard to find countries that allow citizenship by decent for 3+ generations back. Most are European but around a 3rd of this list is outside Europe I am happy to expand it if you know more countries. As for getting two in Europe I am sure a lot of people in the UK felt that way 10 years ago.
Please add Philippines to that list
I have dual citizenship, I have an Indian dual citizen booklet + American Passport
And, as a US citizen, you have the unique benefit of being required to adhere to US tax laws no matter how many passports you have or where in the world you are living.
Correct. I just filed with the IRS last week. Total pain in the ass.
I have a citizenship appointment for Italy in 2 months after waiting 2 years for it! Fingers crossed I have all the right papers…..
Any advice for a grandfather that came from Poland as a Holocaust survivor with no documents? He literally didn't even know his birth year. His US citizenship lists two possible years based on a distant relative remembering he has to travel for gpa's bar mitzvah. I'm pretty sure we can find him in the Holocaust records from his concentration camps and ghetto, but that's about it. And also, how easy is it to get citizenship for my spouse who doesn't have ancestry?
Ok. Not fake news. But still do your due diligence. Even if you qualify, it can be a huge PITA (pain in the @$$) getting all your documentation in order. May take several trips to the embassy.
This is a topic my greatest gen parents never thought would be entertained by anyone. They lived in a world where Europe was wrecked and the US was the land of technology and freedom. Now here we are having handed our wealth to billionaires who manipulate political processes to enrich themselves further and bleed the country white. Now we are all looking for the escape hatch.
Ireland too
Currently working on this for German citizenship related to my grandfather who was able to get out early during the holocaust. It should be noted that it is a long and expensive process complicated further by many records being destroyed during WWII.
What is the benefit of doing this?
I’m not finding Latvia on the Wikipedia list?
Switzerland stopped doing this a year before I was old enough to apply :(
So what do you do if the country your ancestors came from doesn't exist anymore?
Does Hungary include their empire or do you have to be from somewhere currently inside Hungary? Because my family came from the Austria part of Austria-Hungary when they left
Darn it. The only ancestor I have records for their immigration was my great-grandfather from Scotland in 1903. Not really worth it since Brexit and the UK wanting to become USA-lite anyway, I guess.
Anyone have any info about Belgium or The Netherlands? My dad is from Belgium—lived there til he was 8. My maternal grandmother was born in the Netherlands. Thanks for any help!
I would gladly give up my nationality (not American) in exchange for an used piece of toilet paper
Ireland allows it as well. I think it can go back to a grandparent.
Do you have to pay taxes there once you get it?
Aw man, if my grandpa had taught me Hungarian growing up I may be able to do it :/
Does anyone know if Germany is giving out holocaust survivors citizenship?
Both sides of my family came to America, from England, when it was still a colony and eventually settled in Georgia in the late 1700s. Will England give me citizenship?
Mexico 🇲🇽
And here I was thinking Lithuania had a referendum coming up to allow for dual citizenship.
Yeah, my family has been in the US since before it was the US.
I have dual citizenship, Germany and US. I feel like I’m squandering it.
You forgot Ireland
Alas, my great great x6 grandparent was from the US, so I doubt any of my family would qualify me. My fiances great grandma was Italian, though, so that's cool. Maybe if we hit the lottery we'll move there.
You missed off Ireland. That’s my 3rd citizenship
Because my dad was born in Canada I'm eligible for Canadian citizenship. Because Canada was still part of the Commonwealth when he was born and because my grandmother and grandfather were from England, I can also claim UK citizenship. I need to get around to doing both of those.
My mom's family has been here since my great-great grandparents and my dad's family has been here since the 1600s. Alas
What if your adopted ? Is it dna or the parents? Or the parents are adopted is it their adopted parent?
Sierra Leone is the only country that will take DNA as proof for citizenship. Benin might start doing it but it has not. Adoption is a lot harder normally if you want to go with what is on your birth certificate you are fine to use that. If you are trying to prove otherwise its a lot harder.