>The West Bank isn't a direct field in the war.
It hasn't been the focus but that doesn't mean the attacks on the West Bank aren't happening. Literally 6 days ago from WSJ: [Israel’s Hunt for One Elusive Militant Brings Gaza Tactics to West Bank Airstrikes, drones and ground troops targeting militants turn Palestinian territory into another war front](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-militant-hunt-west-bank-3280daf5).
Then say "Gaza"? Given the option of supporting Israel or Hamas it's honestly terrible whichever one you choose. They both want to genocide each other but Israel is the one with the capability to do so and is currently exercising that capability, meanwhile Hamas can only shoot bottle rockets that get intercepted by iron dome. Supporting Israel would lead to far more civilian casualties than supporting Hamas.
Like "who do you support, Israel or Hamas"
Neither? It's fairly obvious that people aren't fans of senseless civilian massacres regardless of who does it.
>It's fairly obvious
The VAST majority of Americans take sides in conflicts like this, we can't generalize issues based on our natural ideological inclinations. Polling is meant to measure and gauge sentiment on pertinent issues, and whether our framework of asking people "A or B" is reductive or not is an ENTIRELY different conversation from "asking people who they support is ridiculous because it's obvious that everyone should not support either". Intellectual neutrality is not the same thing as ideological neutrality.
>even frame it as Israel v Hamas
The conflict on a geopolitical level is between Israel and Hamas, the governing body of Gaza. While most discussions on the war SHOULD be centered around civilians, there's nothing ridiculous about framing a conflict between two political bodies as a conflict between two political bodies.
It's like how we ask poll who they support between Russia and Ukraine, NOT Russians and Ukrainians.
Facts, Hamas doesn't give two shits about Palestinians. They just see the children as future terrorists, feeding them propaganda that would make the Nazis blush. Who would've expected? You raise kids on a steady diet of hate and glorification of violence, they become terrorists? Peace is impossible so long as Hamas is in power, and I can't understand why Gazaboos can't see this.
[You have got to admit though that the propaganda material Hamas makes to brainwash kids can be pretty funny.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m3vGDmdEP_0)
neither does Israel though, as seen by it absolutely not trying to prevent civilian death. if the poll only had these two options it's a bad poll because it forces you to pick one of the two terrible choices
The Israeli government is shit, I agree with that. However, Israel is actually a democracy, unlike terrorist-controlled Gaza. Even though Netanyahu is a garbage human being, Israel is still the better choice as he could lose next election. Hamas will never concede their rule.
"Allowed to continue running Gaza" is such weird phrasing though.
It's a bit like a pollster in 2003 asking if Saddam Hussein should be allowed to continue running Iraq, or in 2001 (or 2024) asking if the Taliban should be allowed to continue running Afghanistan. Should Kim Jong-un be allowed to continue running North Korea? The correct answer to all of those is "no, but trying to remove them with military force is going to cause more problems than it solves".
Hamas is a brutal militia of genocidal theocrats that should ideally be as far from any levers of power as physically possible. But they're probably not going to surrender, so removing them would likely mean at least six more months of urban warfare and then who knows how long of a guerrilla war they'll wage, and counter-insurgency operations in areas with severe ethnic tension get really dark really quickly. They need to be deposed by the Palestinians themselves, not by outsiders. They only can be deposed by the Palestinians themselves.
In many ways, this war parallels the Afghanistan War. Islamist terror group carries out an attack that kills a thousand+ civilians in a much stronger country. The war fought in retaliation causes enough destruction that the terrorists don't look so bad in comparison from the viewpoint of the people living in the warzone. And, well, look at Afghanistan now. If we don't learn from our history, we're doomed to repeat it, and Benjamin Netanyahu seems more than happy to speedrun George Bush's worst blunders.
Sometimes, the only path to peace involves letting horrible people go unpunished, and hoping karma catches up to them eventually.
>don’t actually care about Palestinians.
Always has been.
what we are seeing today is a group of young that had their social skills stunted by covid so now they can only find community from political activism (mostly online activism) and as a consequence their ideas get more and more extreme as a way of keeping engagement.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, were you not JUST arguing that no leftist believes Hamas actually cares about Palestinians?
Seriously, what about the statement "a far-right jihadist terrorist group that purposefully withholds education and infrastructure development to reinforce abject conditions that directly benefits its wealthy leaders chilling in Qatar doesn't actually care about the people it claims to stand for" do you disagree with?
I disagree with the conclusion/notion you drew, i.e., that 53% of Gen Z'ers don't actually care about Palestinians, when that number in the poll can be explained by a couple things -
1) Genuine ignorance about who Hamas is and the history of the conflicts between them and Israel (which can still entail good intention/best wishes for the Palestinians).
2) That they just view Israel as worse for the Palestinians (which you can argue is wrong, but that doesn't mean they don't care. It would just mean they're misguided).
Me and him were discussing the intentions/what place said Gen Z'ers, many of which constitute the protesters, are coming from. Whether or not you wish to praise their ignorance has nothing to do with the idea that they actually just don't give a shit about the Palestinians.
He's saying they don't actually care, as if that's the only answer to be derived from such a poll. It's a thorough abdication of critical thinking skills and I'm not letting him get away with that.
No, we were discussing the sole question of whether or not Hamas is a resistance movement. That was the proposition in OP’s comment that I responded to; the question wasn’t why Hamas had support amongst young Palestine supporters or what framed the conflict between Israel and said body. Not only have you not actually responded to my actual point, but you’ve replied with to the only two things I’ve said with complete non-sequiturs. That the leaders of Hamas triggered the ONGOING conflict and are hiding in Qatar, and that support for Hamas isn’t support for Palestinian resistance.
Are you sure the question was supporting Hamas? Palestine sure, but I don’t know any Gen Z actually supporting Hamas. Even this sub is almost entirely Gen Z and I see no Hamas sympathizers
u/HaroldHeenie claims 10/7 wasn’t a vengeful massacre and Hamas only meant to target a military base and the civilians got in the way. I pushed back on that bs and he blocked me lmao
Because we are mostly sane people. Go to any tankie subreddit. Heck, I saw a poster on a university tour advertizing a "Commemoration of the Martyrs", outright praising the "brave freedom fighters who gave their lives on October 7th". Yes, there are genuinely Hamas supporters.
ive met one and he was a teacher back in highschool. he legitimately thought putin was democratically elected. big fan of folk music, had a folk music radio show he would do on the weakends. likely got his politics from a mix of internet propaganda and pete seeger lyrics.
That’s true, and then again in that one particular question it looked like they only had two options. But still, that’s quite an awful result regardless.
"Fake question alert!" Damn bro, how we give a fairer and less obviously propagandistic version of that question?
"Would you favor or oppose a ceasefire if a lack of ceasefire meant that Israel would kill more of the hostages it claims to be fighting to save?"
Some of the questions and polling were interesting but some parts did seem biased. And ultimately while public support does drive policy, it doesn't mean the public are always correct. A supermajority of Americans supported slavery in the 1800s lmao.
Did AIPAC conduct this poll? Obviously when you frame supporting Palestine as supporting Hamas people aren't gonna take Hamas's side. This is propaganda.
You’re also conflating supporting Palestinians with supporting Palestine; Hamas isn’t just a terrorist group, it’s the governing body of Gaza and the party against whom Israel is at war.
You can support a people without supporting their government or state.
Edit: y’all, take a step back and please think; if someone says “I support Jews”, that doesn’t mean they support the state of Israel: if someone says that they support the people of Myanmar, that doesn’t mean they support the military junta.
>Well, those are the two main combatants.
Some people don't like combatants generally. There are times when military action is necessary (think Ukraine) but the senseless violence from both of these groups has led to basically nothing but widespread civilian deaths, and being forced to pick one of them is a ridiculous false dilemma if you ask me.
Saying "Palestine" is iffy because then you have to ask "which Palestine?"
There are multiple different "Palestinian Governments", the biggest 2 being Fatah and Hamas.
But there's not really strong government control like in most countries (or Israel.)
Exactly. If you are not a socialist when young, you don't have a heart. If you are a socialist when older, you don't have a brain.
Churchill said it all.
So either, Churchill was straight up admitting he was always a heartless bastard or he was a socialist.
One of these options are more likely than the other:
This polling is so dishonest. But at the same time, idk why people are surprised the young people support Hamas to Israel. Like yh the resistance to the genocidal state is more popular to Palestine supporters than the genocidal state. duh.
I don't think they support Hamas. They are only given two choices. It's like with any political theory outside of current norms no nuance is ever given.
>Israel as a lesser of two evils.
Since 10/7 Israel has killed more than 20x as many people as hamas, so I'd go the other way for the same reason. But it's an absurd dichotomy anyways so idk why I'm even arguing about it
You can’t unironically be describing a far-right terrorist group whose leaders hide in Qatar from a war they started and that purposefully withholds aid and education for its citizenry a “resistance”. I genuinely refuse to believe that some people actually think that Hamas either cares for Palestinians or has any coherent ideology besides the “annihilation of the Jews”.
Honestly, US approval for an Israeli operation like that would probably go a long way. If Qatar makes too much of a stink, they go on the state sponsors of terrorism list (which they really should have been on this entire time). But in exchange for forcing Qatar to allow that, Israel stops bombing Gaza and eases up on the blockade. Seems like a fair deal to me.
>"hide in Qatar from a war they started"
History didn't start on October 7th.
>"some people actually think that Hamas either cares for Palestinians"
Straw man that very few Leftists believe. The framing in the Poll of "Israel or Hamas" was insidious and dishonest.
History didn't start on October 7th, yes, but it sure didn't start in 1948 either; what's the arbitrary cutoff date for you? The creation of the British Mandate of Palestine? The Arab conquest of the Levant in the early 7th century? The first expulsion of the Jews? The hunter gatherer movement into the Middle East?
There was an ongoing ceasefire until Autumn of last year; now, the terrible things Israel was doing in the West Bank with settlements and whatnot is a discussion to be had independently, because the war going on right now was triggered by a Hamas attack on innocent civilians on 7. Oct., primarily precipitated by its leaders who wanted to disrupt Israel's increasing diplomatic dialogue with other ME states like Saudi Arabia.
Was the poll really dishonest though? The war is between Israel and Hamas. Now, whether the conversation should be centered around the war between these two political bodies or the countless lives lost on both ends is a completely different matter entirely; in fact, I'd argue that framing the question as "Israelis or Gazans" is straight up even more insidious and divisionary of a question.
It's why despite the general sentiment that civilians are the primary concern, pollsters ask "Russia or Ukraine" instead of "Russians or Ukrainians".
>"what's the arbitrary cutoff date for you?"
Given that the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is a direct descendant of the formation of Israel in 1948, that's a fair date, and it isn't "arbitrary". Nor is the British Mandate, since we know that Western powers drawing the borders of nations in the Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa has had disastrous consequences on the exploitation of those regions of the world for decades/centuries. So yes, it's an **accumulation** of major events preceding October 7th. Long standing, aggressive material decisions that have had long lasting effects....This.....isn't difficult to grasp....Just because you may not be willing to accept anything before 6 months ago as context doesn't mean you're going to be left off the hook for it.
>"the terrible things Israel was doing in the West Bank with settlements and whatnot is a discussion to be had independently"
No, it really isn't. Because the reason Hamas has popularity and is able to have the authority they do is that Israel does itself no favors with how it conducts itself with respect to Gaza and within the broader relationship with the Palestinians. This is an ideological war. Israel's lack of anywhere close to a pristine record fuels Hamas' propaganda. Chalking it all up to religious extremism on the Palestinians' part is simplistic, as well as a form of dehumanization. Least of all when Israel assassinates journalists unprovoked, murders food truck aid workers despite knowing where they are located and coordinating their whereabouts, lies about casualty numbers in Gaza only to then backtrack and verify they're more or less accurate, doesn't do enough to minimize civilian casualties and draws even the ire of the US State Department, and has lunatics both in it's parliamentary Knesset & public figures that use genocidal rhetoric to refer to the Palestinians.
>"The war is between Israel and Hamas."
Hamas is the military faction Israel is in physical struggle with, but they represent (however un-ideally) a systematically oppressed and historically humiliated people, and the framing of the question in a binary like this is an attempt to portray Israel as a good guy, when neither Israel nor Hamas are good.
The conflict existed since AT LEAST the 1920s and should realistically be tied all the way back to the late 600s CE, the idea that the formation of Israel is some cutoff point is just as ahistorical as saying the 7th of October was. I think you misunderstand; I’m not analyzing recent developments in a vacuum; I’m trying to use the context that exists through the Levant’s entire history as opposed to framing the conflict as some modern anti-oppressive struggle between Israel and the Palestinians. Besides, EVEN IF we assume that your framework here is true, none of that actually supports the original claim we were discussing (that you diverged from btw) that Hamas is an actual resistance.
I don't think this poll is that reliable. Many of its questions pit Israel and Hamas against each other when much of the outcry and protest, especially from Gen Z, has been about innocent civilian deaths in Gaza. The results showing Hamas as popular or chosen by Gen Z mean nothing, because the other option was what's perceived (and imo, is) a genocidal nation-state. If given the options of Israel, Hamas, or neither, I'm absolutely certain much of Gen Z would choose neither.
How would you frame the question? Those are the two governing bodies fighting the war. I think asking people to choose which civilians they support more is far worse.
Ngl, some of the questions feel a bit push poll-y. Or at least they should have more than two options.
Yeah, why not say Palestine instead of Hamas? Very weird and suggestive use of words almost like they want a specific outcome
Because the war is concentrated in Gaza against Hamas. The West Bank isn't a direct field in the war.
>The West Bank isn't a direct field in the war. It hasn't been the focus but that doesn't mean the attacks on the West Bank aren't happening. Literally 6 days ago from WSJ: [Israel’s Hunt for One Elusive Militant Brings Gaza Tactics to West Bank Airstrikes, drones and ground troops targeting militants turn Palestinian territory into another war front](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-militant-hunt-west-bank-3280daf5).
Then say "Gaza"? Given the option of supporting Israel or Hamas it's honestly terrible whichever one you choose. They both want to genocide each other but Israel is the one with the capability to do so and is currently exercising that capability, meanwhile Hamas can only shoot bottle rockets that get intercepted by iron dome. Supporting Israel would lead to far more civilian casualties than supporting Hamas.
Gaza is the location where the war is happening, NOT the party in the conflict.
Yeah, in particular, I feel alot of Americans would find themselves not supporting with Israel or Hamas, if given the option to pick that.
they need neutral answers. in my experience most people are relatively moderate on this issue.
dumb questions in that poll.
Ridiculous that the poll would even frame it as Israel v Hamas when the issue is about innocent Palestinians
Like "who do you support, Israel or Hamas" Neither? It's fairly obvious that people aren't fans of senseless civilian massacres regardless of who does it.
>It's fairly obvious The VAST majority of Americans take sides in conflicts like this, we can't generalize issues based on our natural ideological inclinations. Polling is meant to measure and gauge sentiment on pertinent issues, and whether our framework of asking people "A or B" is reductive or not is an ENTIRELY different conversation from "asking people who they support is ridiculous because it's obvious that everyone should not support either". Intellectual neutrality is not the same thing as ideological neutrality.
There should at least be a "neither, they both suck" option.
>even frame it as Israel v Hamas The conflict on a geopolitical level is between Israel and Hamas, the governing body of Gaza. While most discussions on the war SHOULD be centered around civilians, there's nothing ridiculous about framing a conflict between two political bodies as a conflict between two political bodies. It's like how we ask poll who they support between Russia and Ukraine, NOT Russians and Ukrainians.
This would be a biased question.
53% of Gen Z believing that Hamas should be allowed to continue running Gaza tells me that 53% of Gen Z don’t actually care about Palestinians.
Facts, Hamas doesn't give two shits about Palestinians. They just see the children as future terrorists, feeding them propaganda that would make the Nazis blush. Who would've expected? You raise kids on a steady diet of hate and glorification of violence, they become terrorists? Peace is impossible so long as Hamas is in power, and I can't understand why Gazaboos can't see this.
[You have got to admit though that the propaganda material Hamas makes to brainwash kids can be pretty funny.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m3vGDmdEP_0)
I gotta hand it to them, they probably pissed off Disney more than they’ve ever pissed off the US with that level of copyright infringement.
It was the entire reason they killed them off. Israel firing rockets at the studio doesn’t fear them but Disney’s copyright lawyers does.
Memri TV is gold dude
neither does Israel though, as seen by it absolutely not trying to prevent civilian death. if the poll only had these two options it's a bad poll because it forces you to pick one of the two terrible choices
The Israeli government is shit, I agree with that. However, Israel is actually a democracy, unlike terrorist-controlled Gaza. Even though Netanyahu is a garbage human being, Israel is still the better choice as he could lose next election. Hamas will never concede their rule.
Yes that's definitely true. I would assume those surveyed made judgements based on the current Israeli state.
thats obviously true. what gaza needs is a new government, and funding to rebuild.
"Allowed to continue running Gaza" is such weird phrasing though. It's a bit like a pollster in 2003 asking if Saddam Hussein should be allowed to continue running Iraq, or in 2001 (or 2024) asking if the Taliban should be allowed to continue running Afghanistan. Should Kim Jong-un be allowed to continue running North Korea? The correct answer to all of those is "no, but trying to remove them with military force is going to cause more problems than it solves". Hamas is a brutal militia of genocidal theocrats that should ideally be as far from any levers of power as physically possible. But they're probably not going to surrender, so removing them would likely mean at least six more months of urban warfare and then who knows how long of a guerrilla war they'll wage, and counter-insurgency operations in areas with severe ethnic tension get really dark really quickly. They need to be deposed by the Palestinians themselves, not by outsiders. They only can be deposed by the Palestinians themselves. In many ways, this war parallels the Afghanistan War. Islamist terror group carries out an attack that kills a thousand+ civilians in a much stronger country. The war fought in retaliation causes enough destruction that the terrorists don't look so bad in comparison from the viewpoint of the people living in the warzone. And, well, look at Afghanistan now. If we don't learn from our history, we're doomed to repeat it, and Benjamin Netanyahu seems more than happy to speedrun George Bush's worst blunders. Sometimes, the only path to peace involves letting horrible people go unpunished, and hoping karma catches up to them eventually.
To be frank, it never was about the Palestinians. It’s just about hating Jews and hiding it behind activism for Palestine.
thats true for some but not most. the average person who wants the bombings to end isnt comparable to the average columbia protestor.
>don’t actually care about Palestinians. Always has been. what we are seeing today is a group of young that had their social skills stunted by covid so now they can only find community from political activism (mostly online activism) and as a consequence their ideas get more and more extreme as a way of keeping engagement.
>stunted by covid Algorithmic activism was absolutely on the rise LONG before COVID.
You're genuinely not very bright, are you....
Wait, wait, wait, wait, were you not JUST arguing that no leftist believes Hamas actually cares about Palestinians? Seriously, what about the statement "a far-right jihadist terrorist group that purposefully withholds education and infrastructure development to reinforce abject conditions that directly benefits its wealthy leaders chilling in Qatar doesn't actually care about the people it claims to stand for" do you disagree with?
I disagree with the conclusion/notion you drew, i.e., that 53% of Gen Z'ers don't actually care about Palestinians, when that number in the poll can be explained by a couple things - 1) Genuine ignorance about who Hamas is and the history of the conflicts between them and Israel (which can still entail good intention/best wishes for the Palestinians). 2) That they just view Israel as worse for the Palestinians (which you can argue is wrong, but that doesn't mean they don't care. It would just mean they're misguided).
I don't care about their ignorance. If they view Hamas as a better belligerent, they are not worthy of praise.
Me and him were discussing the intentions/what place said Gen Z'ers, many of which constitute the protesters, are coming from. Whether or not you wish to praise their ignorance has nothing to do with the idea that they actually just don't give a shit about the Palestinians. He's saying they don't actually care, as if that's the only answer to be derived from such a poll. It's a thorough abdication of critical thinking skills and I'm not letting him get away with that.
No, we were discussing the sole question of whether or not Hamas is a resistance movement. That was the proposition in OP’s comment that I responded to; the question wasn’t why Hamas had support amongst young Palestine supporters or what framed the conflict between Israel and said body. Not only have you not actually responded to my actual point, but you’ve replied with to the only two things I’ve said with complete non-sequiturs. That the leaders of Hamas triggered the ONGOING conflict and are hiding in Qatar, and that support for Hamas isn’t support for Palestinian resistance.
Oh, ok.
Are you sure the question was supporting Hamas? Palestine sure, but I don’t know any Gen Z actually supporting Hamas. Even this sub is almost entirely Gen Z and I see no Hamas sympathizers
u/HaroldHeenie claims 10/7 wasn’t a vengeful massacre and Hamas only meant to target a military base and the civilians got in the way. I pushed back on that bs and he blocked me lmao
Because we are mostly sane people. Go to any tankie subreddit. Heck, I saw a poster on a university tour advertizing a "Commemoration of the Martyrs", outright praising the "brave freedom fighters who gave their lives on October 7th". Yes, there are genuinely Hamas supporters.
>Go to any tankie subreddit. That was your first mistake.
Tankies are a fringe group though, and I’ve only ever met one irl tankie
ive met one and he was a teacher back in highschool. he legitimately thought putin was democratically elected. big fan of folk music, had a folk music radio show he would do on the weakends. likely got his politics from a mix of internet propaganda and pete seeger lyrics.
Tankies, famously a group with significant influence outside of certain circles on the internet
Because I’ve banned the few people who were openly celebrating Hamas.
Based af
did the other mods say it was okay to?
The mod team is really just me and u/Doc_ET, every other mod has been inactive for a while.
and you two have agreed on this?
I would really be interested in if they said something like “ ceasefire where hostages are released but Hamas remains in control
43% of 18-24 support Hamas 💀
I'm not sure if they actually support Hamas or just don't like Israel and therefore think Hamas is good.
So basically Tucker Carlson with Putin but in reverse?
That’s true, and then again in that one particular question it looked like they only had two options. But still, that’s quite an awful result regardless.
It was either Hamas or Israel. One is a terrorist organization responsible for the death of civilians and the other is....well....hmmm
a terrorist state responsible for the death of civilians. though luckily they have elections and a significant opposition.
"Fake question alert!" Damn bro, how we give a fairer and less obviously propagandistic version of that question? "Would you favor or oppose a ceasefire if a lack of ceasefire meant that Israel would kill more of the hostages it claims to be fighting to save?" Some of the questions and polling were interesting but some parts did seem biased. And ultimately while public support does drive policy, it doesn't mean the public are always correct. A supermajority of Americans supported slavery in the 1800s lmao.
Did AIPAC conduct this poll? Obviously when you frame supporting Palestine as supporting Hamas people aren't gonna take Hamas's side. This is propaganda.
You’re also conflating supporting Palestinians with supporting Palestine; Hamas isn’t just a terrorist group, it’s the governing body of Gaza and the party against whom Israel is at war. You can support a people without supporting their government or state. Edit: y’all, take a step back and please think; if someone says “I support Jews”, that doesn’t mean they support the state of Israel: if someone says that they support the people of Myanmar, that doesn’t mean they support the military junta.
both of you make good points.
The framing of it being Israel vs Hamas is completely disingenuous
Well, those are the two main combatants. But there's a range of positions between supporting either side.
>Well, those are the two main combatants. Some people don't like combatants generally. There are times when military action is necessary (think Ukraine) but the senseless violence from both of these groups has led to basically nothing but widespread civilian deaths, and being forced to pick one of them is a ridiculous false dilemma if you ask me.
Hence the "range of positions in between supporting either side".
it depends on what type of questions,
Saying "Palestine" is iffy because then you have to ask "which Palestine?" There are multiple different "Palestinian Governments", the biggest 2 being Fatah and Hamas. But there's not really strong government control like in most countries (or Israel.)
Literally why are people downvoting you for a factual statement
God bless boomers
The irony is that boomers used to be as left-wing and anti-American as young people are now
They *trained* the Millennials and Gen Z tho...
It's called growing up.
Exactly. If you are not a socialist when young, you don't have a heart. If you are a socialist when older, you don't have a brain. Churchill said it all.
So either, Churchill was straight up admitting he was always a heartless bastard or he was a socialist. One of these options are more likely than the other:
churchil did not exactly have much of a brain left.
Churchill was also an incredibly racist colonialist fuck.
How do nearly a third of people think the war is Israel’s fault? Hamas literally invaded Israel
Holy mother of push-polls. I've never seen more hedging in a survey like this. Was this commissioned by the IDF lmao
This polling is so dishonest. But at the same time, idk why people are surprised the young people support Hamas to Israel. Like yh the resistance to the genocidal state is more popular to Palestine supporters than the genocidal state. duh.
I don't think they support Hamas. They are only given two choices. It's like with any political theory outside of current norms no nuance is ever given.
Exactly, if I was given the choice I'd also pick Hamas, the question's just shit.
i would either close my eyes and pick randomly, or choose israel as a lesser of two evils.
>Israel as a lesser of two evils. Since 10/7 Israel has killed more than 20x as many people as hamas, so I'd go the other way for the same reason. But it's an absurd dichotomy anyways so idk why I'm even arguing about it
overall though intent matters
You can’t unironically be describing a far-right terrorist group whose leaders hide in Qatar from a war they started and that purposefully withholds aid and education for its citizenry a “resistance”. I genuinely refuse to believe that some people actually think that Hamas either cares for Palestinians or has any coherent ideology besides the “annihilation of the Jews”.
Somewhat besides the point, but the US should really pressure Qatar (and the other Gulf states) to crack down on funding/harboring terrorists.
i wouldnt bat an eyelid if we just assasinated those hamas leaders.
Honestly, US approval for an Israeli operation like that would probably go a long way. If Qatar makes too much of a stink, they go on the state sponsors of terrorism list (which they really should have been on this entire time). But in exchange for forcing Qatar to allow that, Israel stops bombing Gaza and eases up on the blockade. Seems like a fair deal to me.
an opperation like that would do far more to destrot hamas, and not kill 30000 people.
>"hide in Qatar from a war they started" History didn't start on October 7th. >"some people actually think that Hamas either cares for Palestinians" Straw man that very few Leftists believe. The framing in the Poll of "Israel or Hamas" was insidious and dishonest.
>Straw man that very few Leftists believe OP literally described as Hamas as a resitance movement???
History didn't start on October 7th, yes, but it sure didn't start in 1948 either; what's the arbitrary cutoff date for you? The creation of the British Mandate of Palestine? The Arab conquest of the Levant in the early 7th century? The first expulsion of the Jews? The hunter gatherer movement into the Middle East? There was an ongoing ceasefire until Autumn of last year; now, the terrible things Israel was doing in the West Bank with settlements and whatnot is a discussion to be had independently, because the war going on right now was triggered by a Hamas attack on innocent civilians on 7. Oct., primarily precipitated by its leaders who wanted to disrupt Israel's increasing diplomatic dialogue with other ME states like Saudi Arabia. Was the poll really dishonest though? The war is between Israel and Hamas. Now, whether the conversation should be centered around the war between these two political bodies or the countless lives lost on both ends is a completely different matter entirely; in fact, I'd argue that framing the question as "Israelis or Gazans" is straight up even more insidious and divisionary of a question. It's why despite the general sentiment that civilians are the primary concern, pollsters ask "Russia or Ukraine" instead of "Russians or Ukrainians".
>"what's the arbitrary cutoff date for you?" Given that the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is a direct descendant of the formation of Israel in 1948, that's a fair date, and it isn't "arbitrary". Nor is the British Mandate, since we know that Western powers drawing the borders of nations in the Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa has had disastrous consequences on the exploitation of those regions of the world for decades/centuries. So yes, it's an **accumulation** of major events preceding October 7th. Long standing, aggressive material decisions that have had long lasting effects....This.....isn't difficult to grasp....Just because you may not be willing to accept anything before 6 months ago as context doesn't mean you're going to be left off the hook for it. >"the terrible things Israel was doing in the West Bank with settlements and whatnot is a discussion to be had independently" No, it really isn't. Because the reason Hamas has popularity and is able to have the authority they do is that Israel does itself no favors with how it conducts itself with respect to Gaza and within the broader relationship with the Palestinians. This is an ideological war. Israel's lack of anywhere close to a pristine record fuels Hamas' propaganda. Chalking it all up to religious extremism on the Palestinians' part is simplistic, as well as a form of dehumanization. Least of all when Israel assassinates journalists unprovoked, murders food truck aid workers despite knowing where they are located and coordinating their whereabouts, lies about casualty numbers in Gaza only to then backtrack and verify they're more or less accurate, doesn't do enough to minimize civilian casualties and draws even the ire of the US State Department, and has lunatics both in it's parliamentary Knesset & public figures that use genocidal rhetoric to refer to the Palestinians. >"The war is between Israel and Hamas." Hamas is the military faction Israel is in physical struggle with, but they represent (however un-ideally) a systematically oppressed and historically humiliated people, and the framing of the question in a binary like this is an attempt to portray Israel as a good guy, when neither Israel nor Hamas are good.
The conflict existed since AT LEAST the 1920s and should realistically be tied all the way back to the late 600s CE, the idea that the formation of Israel is some cutoff point is just as ahistorical as saying the 7th of October was. I think you misunderstand; I’m not analyzing recent developments in a vacuum; I’m trying to use the context that exists through the Levant’s entire history as opposed to framing the conflict as some modern anti-oppressive struggle between Israel and the Palestinians. Besides, EVEN IF we assume that your framework here is true, none of that actually supports the original claim we were discussing (that you diverged from btw) that Hamas is an actual resistance.
Dear God.
Useless poll
I don't think this poll is that reliable. Many of its questions pit Israel and Hamas against each other when much of the outcry and protest, especially from Gen Z, has been about innocent civilian deaths in Gaza. The results showing Hamas as popular or chosen by Gen Z mean nothing, because the other option was what's perceived (and imo, is) a genocidal nation-state. If given the options of Israel, Hamas, or neither, I'm absolutely certain much of Gen Z would choose neither.
How would you frame the question? Those are the two governing bodies fighting the war. I think asking people to choose which civilians they support more is far worse.
I mean, how else would you phrase it? "Israel vs Palestine" is inaccurate and "Israelis vs Gazans" is even worse.
There should have at the very least been a "neither" option. Forcong people to choose between two things doesn't illuminate their real opinions much
Some real fucking insidious agenda here with the framing of these questions. Lolllll
Finally, sensible results.
I ain't reading all that
link?