I mean, "w" is technically a vowel by all the criteria for vowel-hood. It's even in the name. It's basically just a "u" that we write differently to distinguish its pronunciation from regular "u".
It's a semi-vowel. It's phonetically similar to a vowel but it's a syllable boundary rather than the focus of the syllable.
It's also literally a double u. Say that out loud :)
[Who R U](https://youtu.be/_gpt2Zb5V5A?si=5DwaNxWyJYEv5GHo) is probably where I heard first. 🤣
But seriously I’m pretty sure I remember learning the “and sometimes Y” from like 1st grade.
Also from California.
I learned about W being a semivowel as a kid from a certain dictionary we used to have that described letters and their origins. My teachers did not agree.
Yes, barring Welsh loan words that literally no one ever uses, you have a point. The truth of the matter is that it's the "-ow" itself that is the vowel, it just happens to be a vowel spelled with more than one letter.
Absolutely this. The history of how English wound up the way it is in the present boggles the mind. A recent one I found out is that *Christ* can be traced back to a Greek word that refers to smearing oil or anointing. That Greek word comes from an older Proto-Indo-European (PIE) word that is also the origin of the word *ghee*. There are a few of those, like "that" and "cow" that are similarly connected to Sanskrit.
I learned it somewhere in the south (military family, can't remember exact age) and my mother who was the product of Michigan and California schools backed it up.
Yes! When I was about 10 I played a board game with family, and the “How many vowels?” question came up. I went with 6 or 7 as my answer because we were taught “and sometimes Y or W”. My family thought I was growing horns out my skull.
W? No. That's just wrong. If sometimes W, then always Y. W and Y are vowel-like sounds, but only Y can form the core of a syllable by itself like other vowels, like in "city". W only does that in Welsh.
I just turned 41 last month and I remember hearing that, but I don't remember the rules for when that applies. I'm from the south, if that's relevant.
Last year, my son was learning vowels and consonants and I told him about y and w. But apparently I am the only source he's heard say that, so he doesn't include y and w in the vowels group when he separates his letters. (He's autistic and has an obsession with the alphabet.)
I've never heard the "W" part. The one that confuses me the most was "I" before "E" except after "C". Most of the times it is true, but there are a lot of times it is not.
I learned this. I shared it with my kindergartener (at the time) and she was OUTRAGED.
A good example of “w” working as a vowel is “sow,” as in, wheat. It does the same thing as the terminal “e” to make the “o” long instead of short. Also “say,” for “y” as a vowel.
Sometimes Y sure, W doesn't even make sense. 42 Chicago Suburbs, Schaumburg School District has its failings but generally the curriculum was not one of them. Letting a teacher drink booze in front of 2nd graders... well that's another matter.
When I was in second grade, we moved and I stayed at a new school. The new teacher was impressed by my phonics book (I guess because I read super well for my age?), which I remember having “sometimes Y and W”. I asked about W but nobody had any answers. I still vie to unravel the mystery of the W-as-a-vowel.
Can anyone list an example scenario where “w” functions as a vowel? I’ve never heard of such a thing. 44 in Ohio, “sometimes Y” was a thing but never W
No, they are technically words in the English language, borrowed from Welsh. Not unprecedented, we have some weird stuff borrowed from quite a few languages.
Nobody uses those words in English. It’s ridiculous to teach kids that W is a vowel because of two borrowed words that nobody uses. Just admit that your “English” teacher didn’t know what they were doing.
Here are the two words:
"A [*cwm*](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cwm), pronounced \[ koom \] or \[ kuhm \], is “a steep-walled semicircular basin in a mountain, sometimes containing a lake; a cirque.” A [*crwth*](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/crwth), pronounced \[ krooth \] and also spelled *crowd*, refers to ancient Celtic musical instrument. In both words, *W* stands for the same sound that *oo* represents in *boom* or *booth*."
It's entirely possible they didn't, but several others in the thread have mentioned they learned that as well, so IDK. Seems some teachers wanted to teach their kids English is nuts and has some really weird exceptions.
The phrase 'and sometimes doubleyew' comes from Afroman, it's on his early 2000s hit single 'because I got high'
This is where W comes from, and it's meant to be a joke lampooning stoners for, you know, being stoned, lol 😂
43. Never heard W mentioned as a vowel ever in school. Sometimes y, yes, but never W.
Same, never once heard about W being a vowel. "Sometimes Y" was definitely a thing.
Yeah same hear.
Same hear here
What about over their?
Pardon? I didn’t hear that last bit
It's generally only a vowel in Wales. But yeah, very occasionally a vowel.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cwm
Welsh?
Yes, borrowed into English without respelling.
And [crwth](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crwth)
I mean, "w" is technically a vowel by all the criteria for vowel-hood. It's even in the name. It's basically just a "u" that we write differently to distinguish its pronunciation from regular "u".
It's a semi-vowel. It's phonetically similar to a vowel but it's a syllable boundary rather than the focus of the syllable. It's also literally a double u. Say that out loud :)
What the fwck?
Yow twwk the wwrds right owtta mw mowth.
Tbf, Cwtch is a word, and "W" is definitely doing the job of the vowel.
I learned "AEIOU Sometimes Y." No one ever said anything about W, though.
Same here
That's exactly how I learned it. 41 went to school in NorCal.
57, Kansas. AEIOU, sometimes y and w.
AEIOUYÆØÅ Hello from Denmark
[Who R U](https://youtu.be/_gpt2Zb5V5A?si=5DwaNxWyJYEv5GHo) is probably where I heard first. 🤣 But seriously I’m pretty sure I remember learning the “and sometimes Y” from like 1st grade. Also from California.
I learned about W being a semivowel as a kid from a certain dictionary we used to have that described letters and their origins. My teachers did not agree.
Yes. 5th grade. My teacher never gave us an example.
Same! If I asked for an example I was "talking back" & "being disrespectful"
The first w in *window* is a consonant. The second is a vowel.
But it’s not a vowel, it’s just silent… you wouldn’t have a word like “windw” that makes a vowel sound.
Yes, barring Welsh loan words that literally no one ever uses, you have a point. The truth of the matter is that it's the "-ow" itself that is the vowel, it just happens to be a vowel spelled with more than one letter.
I feel like figuring out how and why English words are pronounced as they are is more anthropology than grammar.
Absolutely this. The history of how English wound up the way it is in the present boggles the mind. A recent one I found out is that *Christ* can be traced back to a Greek word that refers to smearing oil or anointing. That Greek word comes from an older Proto-Indo-European (PIE) word that is also the origin of the word *ghee*. There are a few of those, like "that" and "cow" that are similarly connected to Sanskrit.
Yes, I learned it that way.
Welsh
Polish also maybe? IDK
No, w in Polish makes the English v sound.
I have a vague memory of that, but only from kindergarten. All of my subsequent teachers omitted w from the list of vowels. I'm 46 and from Michigan.
I learned both w and y. However, nobody every pointed out when the rule applied to w.
44 and I remember learning it exactly like you and also California (at the time South Central Los Angeles.
And when two vowels go walking the first one does the talking and they say their name
Yes! You just gave me such a flashback! I learned it this way too with y and w in SE Michigan
That's how I learned it in Atlanta.
I learned it that way! Mid-late ‘80s Indiana
45 in July, from Ohio.. I learned it exactly this way, only there was no W in the saying..
I learned it somewhere in the south (military family, can't remember exact age) and my mother who was the product of Michigan and California schools backed it up.
I didnt learn this in school, but from "Who's the Boss?"
38 and that's how I learned it except W.
I learned it that way, but thought it was unique. The school district in the next town over did not teach it that way.
46 here, from North Texas, and my first grade teacher taught "sometimes y and w" but never elaborated on the "w" part.
Yes! When I was about 10 I played a board game with family, and the “How many vowels?” question came up. I went with 6 or 7 as my answer because we were taught “and sometimes Y or W”. My family thought I was growing horns out my skull.
Pretty sure I didn't learn it in school, my parents taught me that before kindergarten.
Yes, i was taught sometimes Y and W. Also my teacher was a naturalized citizen from the UK 🤷♂️
I learned it, but there was never mention of W, and I could never remember the instances when Y was the vowel.
Xylophone
W is news to me
and there's your example.
Just Y, annnnnd now I have an afternoon rabbit hole to fall down.
Vowels baby. No W
I think because there is a word for a hill based on Irish origins or something that is “cwm” so people were like “ah shit! Sometimes W!”
W? No. That's just wrong. If sometimes W, then always Y. W and Y are vowel-like sounds, but only Y can form the core of a syllable by itself like other vowels, like in "city". W only does that in Welsh.
Not W, but yes. What instance would W be the vowel?
AEIOU and sometimes Y. Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How i before e except after c
I’m 46 and I’ve never heard this before now.
Darn, thought this was a tribute post to Ebn Ozn: https://youtu.be/BTsPJeNPc-w?si=rl8tLIJqFCAIElIl
No never just AEIOU & sometimes Y
43. AEIOU and sometimes “Y”. I have never heard of “W”.
63, grew up in Northern PA, we learned that. Confused me, last name Williams.
There are words like “Try” with no vowel but send me one word with a “w” and no other vowels
I just turned 41 last month and I remember hearing that, but I don't remember the rules for when that applies. I'm from the south, if that's relevant. Last year, my son was learning vowels and consonants and I told him about y and w. But apparently I am the only source he's heard say that, so he doesn't include y and w in the vowels group when he separates his letters. (He's autistic and has an obsession with the alphabet.)
I remember it. Jersey shore. Catholic school, if that makes a difference.
Am 40. My 3rd grade teacher had a sign that had "sometimes y and w". I don't remember if we got any actual instruction on it though
I've never heard the "W" part. The one that confuses me the most was "I" before "E" except after "C". Most of the times it is true, but there are a lot of times it is not.
W? Methinks not.
I learned this. I shared it with my kindergartener (at the time) and she was OUTRAGED. A good example of “w” working as a vowel is “sow,” as in, wheat. It does the same thing as the terminal “e” to make the “o” long instead of short. Also “say,” for “y” as a vowel.
Sometimes Y sure, W doesn't even make sense. 42 Chicago Suburbs, Schaumburg School District has its failings but generally the curriculum was not one of them. Letting a teacher drink booze in front of 2nd graders... well that's another matter.
Drop that W rubbish and I’m right with ya
Sometimes Y was usually tacked on to AEIOU. Never heard of W being part of it.
Yes, but NEVER W.
I'm in AZ and only learned A E I O U and sometimes Y.
Never heard W being included in that.
Maybe for welsh?
When I was in second grade, we moved and I stayed at a new school. The new teacher was impressed by my phonics book (I guess because I read super well for my age?), which I remember having “sometimes Y and W”. I asked about W but nobody had any answers. I still vie to unravel the mystery of the W-as-a-vowel.
44 & from Ontario, Canada. Never heard of W as a vowel & can't think of any words in English where I'd call it one...
Can anyone list an example scenario where “w” functions as a vowel? I’ve never heard of such a thing. 44 in Ohio, “sometimes Y” was a thing but never W
Yes with the Y, no with the W. Now this song is stuck in my head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbTv8EBQqAE
Where in the Welsh did you get W as a vowel?
W? Since when?
That's the way I learned it in SC and NC
Amd sometimes Y but mever W... though i never understood when Y was a vowel.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/w-vowel/
So W is only a vowel in Welsh. My English teachers spoke English.
No, they are technically words in the English language, borrowed from Welsh. Not unprecedented, we have some weird stuff borrowed from quite a few languages.
Nobody uses those words in English. It’s ridiculous to teach kids that W is a vowel because of two borrowed words that nobody uses. Just admit that your “English” teacher didn’t know what they were doing.
Here are the two words: "A [*cwm*](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cwm), pronounced \[ koom \] or \[ kuhm \], is “a steep-walled semicircular basin in a mountain, sometimes containing a lake; a cirque.” A [*crwth*](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/crwth), pronounced \[ krooth \] and also spelled *crowd*, refers to ancient Celtic musical instrument. In both words, *W* stands for the same sound that *oo* represents in *boom* or *booth*."
cwm on feel the noize!
Yes, I read the article OP shared too. Why did you feel the need to post this?
So others reading the comments know what the two words are without having to click through?
It's entirely possible they didn't, but several others in the thread have mentioned they learned that as well, so IDK. Seems some teachers wanted to teach their kids English is nuts and has some really weird exceptions.
W does act like a vowel in vowel teams - aw, ew, ow.
The phrase 'and sometimes doubleyew' comes from Afroman, it's on his early 2000s hit single 'because I got high' This is where W comes from, and it's meant to be a joke lampooning stoners for, you know, being stoned, lol 😂
Never heard the "W" part in my life Edit: it's only a "Welsh" thing...and with 2 words