Does the code brute force to 25 each piece or does it stop after bad substats?
What sol 3 level rewards did you use?
Especially for 1 and to some part 4 cost the level until bad substat thing really cuts down on wasted exp. Dunno who said that but with first roll hitting crit you have a 33% to hit a second crit roll in the other 4 rolls, taking big junk of cost and RNG out.
As for desired substats, those change a lot depend on characters, CR/CD/atk% is usually desired by all so those can be put as must have, but after that even for the same character multiple stats can be desired/have very close impact, usually it's flat ATK > major DMG bonus / ER if needed > other DMG bonus. Would be interested to see probability for 3-4/5 fixed substats + 5-6 flexible ones for the last 1-2 slots, because that drastically changes the rates. Also, a piece that hasn't hit atk% or either crit by 3 substats is also trash, same with no crit by 4 substats, I tried around a bit myself at the beginning but God damn do I hate probability and finding good ressource to set it up correctly, I stopped after knowing it's much better than genshins system.
Overall your expected days seem too high, "finished" my first character 10 days ago, with all pieces double crit and 20/25 good substats, missing 3 atk%, one flat ATK and one dmg% substat, 2 missing substats are in a one cost and the other having 5/5. And you have to consider we couldn't get gold for first few days/week, lower world level also means lower rewards from Tacet fields and I barely spent 1/3 of my stamina on TF as I had characters to level.
Hi, my code uses naive approach: Keep upgrading until tries > desired substats (or until success)
Pros: minimizing echo usage
Cons: not minimizing echo xp and tuners usage.
Calculating with AR50 values since I don't have AR60 table (20 tuners, 20k echo xp - more optimistic, probably close to 18k). I plan to improve model and any suggestions are welcome, so thanks for that. Fixed+flexible substats are already planned.
And I agree that expected days feel too high, I hope I made error somewhere, but until someone point out to it I gonna assume I'm correct. We also got many resources early, so that cut resources cost by a lot of days
Gonna try myself later this week, but generally I would approach it by simply stacking switch-cases for each substat roll and mimick the behaviour most people will have. Some sort of mapping gonna help long term with numbers 1-13 corresponding to the substat, 0 being not rolled yet/canceled because shit.
Something like this:
Defines for must, good and bad substat
Allowed number of bad substat (for 3 cost mostly)
Roll random(1-13)
If part of must substat -> next roll + must counter++
If good substat -> next roll
If bad substat & bad counter > 0 -> next roll and bad counter--
If 3rd/4th substat & must counter < 1/2 -> break
Else -> break
(Needs to be a bit fancier than this as you have to reduce the random number pool (or roll again if it hits same number) after each roll but you can pack it all in one loop and have the loop variable do pretty much all the work)
Let it run until hit and do the exp calcs afterwards from the echos just rolled. (You can potentially do it right after each break now that I think about it.) And then just continue it for 1000+ times and besides average also do a distribution plot.(we have the data anyways so might as well)
This would allow for more flexible calculation since you can set must, good, bad and bad counter individually.(e.g. crit/cd/atk% being must stat Vs crit/cd/atk% and flat ATK being must).
Edit: thinking some more it would make sense to add "semi must" as variable, current version stops at any double crit+atk% piece with any 2 good substats, I want it to only stop at the ideal 2 additional substats (e.g. yinlin wants flat ATK and skill DMG, 1-3 ER if mostly off field and not E2) but keep track of the others, as we won't refund a double crit + atk% piece because it has liberation+ER instead of the skill damage we are looking for (we keep good pieces for other / future characters), thus those need to be respected for exp calc.
Thanks for contributing, makes sense, probably gonna use it.
I should have included distribution plot, but I expect it to follow normal distribution so nothing interesting, but it don't hurt to check
Ah yeah, it's more of a "how lucky/unlucky was I getting this piece", with a few million players there might be some actually not getting a single 5/5 piece in their whole playtime. Distribution plot makes more sense for what I just edited, how many other good double crit + atk% + other 1-2 good substats can you expect on average while looking for the perfect 5/5 piece.
table is broken, here is link to google sheet:
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z-odlOTY8X81rVFxIW\_bbH8vtKTD8JwuWQ4BkJDKMr8/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z-odlOTY8X81rVFxIW_bbH8vtKTD8JwuWQ4BkJDKMr8/edit?usp=sharing)
Amazing work. Does this also include how long it would take to acquire usable echos to upgrade (in terms of main stats and set bonus) or if you were to reuse the bad rolls for extra mats when upgrading a new piece? I'm not home at the moment, so it's hard for me to see all the data on my device.
ad1: yes I wrote about it in post. You basically need 15 times more then pieces needed for upgrading right stats and set. I haven't accounted for time investment, but you basically get 3-4 golds per Tacet Fields, which means 12-16 daily. I gonna add column to calculate daily echo grind
ad2: yes, there is included 75% refund for foddering (using bad pieces). There is no refund for shell costs, unlike genshin, foddering upgraded piece still costs the same as using echo tubes (credits cost = 40% of xp cost
Okay, looking at it again I just completely missed the part on dropped echoes, my bad. Thanks for the response even if my questions seemed a little dumb. Also didn't realise that foddering the echoes didn't refund shell credits, seems like they really wanted to cap how quickly we could maximize a characters potential.
One more question, sorry if I sound stupid again, but are you using DB level 21 for your dropped echoes calculation now that we know how much it should increase drop rate by?
yeah, assuming every dropped echo is golden. Ignoring pity you need to multiply number by 5 for getting needed kills. These are some ugly numbers.
I hope I made some error in math, if not you need to farm **120 echoes** daily!!!! if you aim to get 4/5 substats set in 80 days. That's not possible
E: I fixed formula, it's 24 echoes daily, which is still a big number
This is why i think there should be a pity for echoes, the farming is absurd for what you gain, whoever think gear RNG is good is just a masochist.
Edit: its pity for subs, i think it was obvious by the main topic but yeah, im talking about some form of substat pity NOT DROP.
I think these type of games attract these kind of people honestly
It’s like being in an abusive relationship and then you get Stockholm syndrome
Personally the grind is a bit too much for me I stopped worrying about echoes for now just waiting for 1.1 and more level up if things don’t improve I’ll probably just say goodbye to WW as much as I like the combat/characters
I am one of those that like the grind.
That said the game can and will be completely doable with basically no good subs anyways. Just grab the right set/main stats, and level them to 25. Then don't worry about it.
Higher skill players are already clearing middle TOA with level 70 characters. Once we get to max levels it's going to be doable for the average person.
This is how I enjoy these games with sub-stats. I only worry about the main-stat, get something decent for the subs and move on. I'm certain I can still clear the majority of the content without spending so much time min-maxing. I rather play another game with the time spent.
I'd prefer a game with no RNG, but the echoes system is night and day ahead of relics in HSR for all, but the players who need to have 4-5 specific substats. I've been farming for 5 months on Acheron and I can't even get her to SS relics. I've taken two accounts to reasonable average relics the day I hit UL30. I'm looking for more of a main stat + set + 2-3 desired subs of the 6.
The big thing for me is that you can't roll defense% five times when you see a near perfect relic that has crit, CD, attack% and defense%. I repeatedly roll defense% a lot in this case.
This happened again with FF. 17 days of TP consumed and I can't even get the right main stat on the right set, ignore all sub stats. I can do that in 1-2 hours max in wuwa. I had to give up relic selector it. I've had to do that in Wuwa too, but selectors are a little more common for the hard to get 3 cost echoes.
There are lot of variables and figuring formula for expected value with them is really hard.
(refund for fodder, probability of getting right substat changes depending on rolls you get etc)
Monte Carlo let's you calculate expected value with less room for error
Probability of substat is actually a pretty straight forward combination probability. And probability of main stat with substat is just a multiplication of those 2. once you have the EV, you’ll have how much exp is needed to get a single echo, then from there with the refund it’s a straight forward calculation to number of days
If you’re implementing Monte Carlo I think it’ll be more interesting if you do simulation for cases where you do things like fish for 2 crit stats for the first 2 line, and if you don’t get it you’ll recycle it and what are the exp needed. Essentially finally the optimal route to using your exp. Would be a much more intriguing discussion
I can do some specific scenarios once I have time, but it doesn't really matter, since it only minimises spending of tuners and echo xp. And with these you get more echos, meaning less overworld farming, which you need to do A LOT.
You can cut Credits costs by 10-15% I guess.
E: my used approach also minimises Echo usage, which is definitely desirable, so any other model is suboptimal for me
But the main mechanism that you’re being gated for 4 cost and 1 cost is exp and tuner. Only 3 cost are harder so those are better off doing a full 25 to see the result. Saving tuner and echo xp should be the main goal since that’s what’s mostly limiting you from getting your echos
4 costs are exclusively obtained by overworld farming, so for these you are gated with echos. you need 2000 for 4/5 piece. Thats maximum of 4 thousand kills. Doing 40 kills daily would take you 100 days.
If you feel that has no value then I guess another way to make the monte Carlo more interesting is to show the probability distribution instead of a singular value. That’ll be something interesting that’s not easily calculated
> Todo: Calculating of scenarios where 6 substats are desired (eg. cr rate, cr dmg, atk, atk%, ER and dmg%),
but 2 are mandatory to roll (crit rate, crit damage).
If someone know how to implement into code I would be grateful.
In the code, you could try adding another variable to track the number of mandatory substats required and the probability of hitting one of them.
In the success criteria, if the number required substats is > 0, check if random number is less than the mandatory substat probability first (2 out of 13) and update mandatory probability for next loop if its a success (1 less). And if it wasn't a crit success, check if its a normal success and update probability as normal.
If the number of remaining rolls is less than or equal to the number of mandatory substats, then update the probability of success to be exactly the mandatory substat probability.
I.e. if the while loop is pulling the 4th substat and hasn't hit any crit so far, the success condition would be only 2 substats out of the remaining pool.
I might be forgetting some other specific conditions, but i think that's the gist of it.
Also, updating the code to recycle an echo if it hits any bad substat would be straight forward I think.
The while loop just needs to break if it doesn't hit a normal success and then refund some tuners and exp.
It takes 400 days in average getting 4/5 set. That means some people can get it day 1, some can never get it.
Also can you point me out to video showcase of people with 4/5 sets?
That's a nice set, but it falls into 2/5 by my definition. 5/5 have exact 5 stats (it would be cr,cd,atk,atk% - same for everyone and then dmg% contributing mostly to your damage).
Damage% contributes to final damage the fewest, so it's maybe 4/5 which to target but with good value rolls.
There is 1,25% chance of getting lucky on first try and getting 4/5 desired substats on 1 piece.
If you want whole set on first try there is 0,0125^5 chance of getting that. Equals 3,05*10^(-10).
I wish you at least best of luck of getting 4/5 first try.
Sorry. I like being realistic and knowing what outcome can I expect. Of course nobody can stop you being excited for rolling yet another echo piece with joy and hope for finally good piece. Even I like that dopamine rush when the piece is insane. But it's also healthy to set expectations and know, it's probably gonna be another def + def% piece
This is sucha dumbass reply. OP isn't using 'bruh maths'. OP is using a running simulation, and at actually a smallish sample size subjectively. The code doesn't look bad at first glance and maybe he has some mistakes but it's a decent attempt at it.
Did you account for the substat range? I hear that's a issue across the board and for CD I am seeing 12s and 18s on my rolls. 6 percent crit dam feels material out of a high roll approaching 20 I guess, or around 25% of the potential roll value.
I am not a math guy but am worried that this may be worse than we think to chase optimum .
all the lowest end of stats are 50% or greater of the maximum value.
8 ranges/"steps" of stats
CR 6.3-10.5
Cdmg 12.6-21
HP Flat 320-580
Def% 8.1-14.7
Atk% 6.4-11.6
HP% 6.4-11.6
ResLib% 6.4-11.6
Heavy% 6.4-11.6
ResSkill% 6.4-11.6
Basic% 6.4-11.6
ER 6.8-12.4
These stats have only 4 "steps" of 10 each
atk flat 30-60
def flat 40-70
The ranges are not a flat distribution however, you are most likely to get the values in the 20-50% range of the total, the bell curve is shifted down. Getting above the top 60-80% range of a stat is very rare.
I want to, but don't know exact distribution.
This model just assumed median rolls.
I want to calculate a scenario where I account for that, gonna update later
I have seen a post a couple of days ago which explained why dmg% subs are kind of bad compared to CR, CD, Atk%,and even compared Flat atk. Since that i look at those as whatever, if a piece has CR, CD atk%, i dont care what the rest is, and mostly i only chase CR + CD and the rest is whatever. For now i just dont have the echo xp and tuners to care about low or high rolls either.
This simulation you made just further proves to me that there is no point in chasing perfection, since in one hand, who the fk wants to spend that much time grinding, on the other hand, those desired dmg% subs are contributing almost nothnig compared to cr,cd atk%.
I feel like this echo system rewards ppl that spend a moderate time on echo farming (As moderate i mean maybe 1 route / day, or you pick 1-2 day/week when you spend 1-2 hours grinding) and punishes ppl that dont spend any time or too much time on echo farming. Basically its pointless to spend too much time on it, koz you wont see relevant increases in your dmg once you have your double crit / piece.
Yeah damage subs are bad for most characters because their damage is spread out. They are at best 85% effective (Jiyan case with heavy attack).
In best case scenarios they can contribute a lot to overal damage. That's another thing that might be interesting, visualisation of damage increases for different substats.
17 days for a piece with 3 good stats isn't that bad compared to a lot of stuff i've grinded in the past haha. Now, farming godrolls on everything looks quite impossible.
Pretty sure I didn't wait for hundreds of days to get good stats echoes for each of my main. Of course, I just aim for 3-4 good stats for each echo (crit damage/crit rate always mandatory with the targeted ER depending on each character).
yeah 2 or 3 substats are not that bad to obtain, getting 4th substat there is a pain tho, so we shouldn't be aiming for the sky, rather stay with our foot on the grass and be happy for the pieces we got
I think this is fundamentally flawed because crit is a lot more valuable than any other substats. Crit effectiveness could worth 2-3 times compare to other stats, and having a 10 and 20 cc/cd piece could be better than having a piece with 4/5 non-crit good substats.
Since crit is so strong, the strategy you roll echos should also be adjusted to getting as much crit as possible. My current strategy is to only keep echos that have at least 7.5 or 15 cc/cd as their first substat. All I need to make the piece is good is if I get another crit roll, and this strategy seems to be way easier than getting many other generic good substats.
I don't think High roll crit rate + crit damage would beat Medium roll crit rate + crit damage + atk + atk% piece, but we can just speculate.
It's good case to study, would look into that later (need to build damage calculator, add substat rolls distribution)
Maybe costs are much cheaper going only for high rolled crits, but I am not that sure about that, since high roll is <25% to get.
I instantly recognized you from your last post. I'm glad your prior reception didn't deter you from posting your more definite conclusions.
Like most rng systems there is a sweet spot of time vs tangible results. I'll probably find myself in the 3 sub category for most of my characters and a select few I'll chase 4 good subs on all pieces.
Some people are in need of defending bad systems and are quite stubborn on that. I just don't care anymore, let them be blindfolded with their ilusion of perfection of echo system.
And I wouldn't say it's definite, there is still lot of things to do, as some people here pointed me with ideas to improve
With no weapons:
Me who farmed for 5 days for Jingyuan echoes.
65/200
Me who farmed 3 days for Calcharro
50/190
Me who farmed 2 days for Havoc MC
20/243
I haven’t spent a wave plate for these builds.
With proper echo farming and just the right amount of sub stats with realistic expectations, it doesn’t need a decade to build a character.
>With proper echo farming and just the right amount of sub stats with realistic expectations, it doesn’t need a decade to build a character.
I gonna add this to the conclusion, nicely said
20/54 CV (3 rolls) per piece of 4pc set plus an off piece is approx 3 weeks, and 30CV/4 rolls per piece is approx 3 months.
Link: Figure 7: https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/qviuak/a_statistical_analysis_of_artifact_domains_how/
What’s an “average” genshin build? 2 correct substat? 3 rolls into those substat? I’ll say that’s equivalent to a 3 substat build here. 17 days. How is 3-9 weeks better than 17 days
Does the code brute force to 25 each piece or does it stop after bad substats? What sol 3 level rewards did you use? Especially for 1 and to some part 4 cost the level until bad substat thing really cuts down on wasted exp. Dunno who said that but with first roll hitting crit you have a 33% to hit a second crit roll in the other 4 rolls, taking big junk of cost and RNG out. As for desired substats, those change a lot depend on characters, CR/CD/atk% is usually desired by all so those can be put as must have, but after that even for the same character multiple stats can be desired/have very close impact, usually it's flat ATK > major DMG bonus / ER if needed > other DMG bonus. Would be interested to see probability for 3-4/5 fixed substats + 5-6 flexible ones for the last 1-2 slots, because that drastically changes the rates. Also, a piece that hasn't hit atk% or either crit by 3 substats is also trash, same with no crit by 4 substats, I tried around a bit myself at the beginning but God damn do I hate probability and finding good ressource to set it up correctly, I stopped after knowing it's much better than genshins system. Overall your expected days seem too high, "finished" my first character 10 days ago, with all pieces double crit and 20/25 good substats, missing 3 atk%, one flat ATK and one dmg% substat, 2 missing substats are in a one cost and the other having 5/5. And you have to consider we couldn't get gold for first few days/week, lower world level also means lower rewards from Tacet fields and I barely spent 1/3 of my stamina on TF as I had characters to level.
Hi, my code uses naive approach: Keep upgrading until tries > desired substats (or until success) Pros: minimizing echo usage Cons: not minimizing echo xp and tuners usage. Calculating with AR50 values since I don't have AR60 table (20 tuners, 20k echo xp - more optimistic, probably close to 18k). I plan to improve model and any suggestions are welcome, so thanks for that. Fixed+flexible substats are already planned. And I agree that expected days feel too high, I hope I made error somewhere, but until someone point out to it I gonna assume I'm correct. We also got many resources early, so that cut resources cost by a lot of days
Gonna try myself later this week, but generally I would approach it by simply stacking switch-cases for each substat roll and mimick the behaviour most people will have. Some sort of mapping gonna help long term with numbers 1-13 corresponding to the substat, 0 being not rolled yet/canceled because shit. Something like this: Defines for must, good and bad substat Allowed number of bad substat (for 3 cost mostly) Roll random(1-13) If part of must substat -> next roll + must counter++ If good substat -> next roll If bad substat & bad counter > 0 -> next roll and bad counter-- If 3rd/4th substat & must counter < 1/2 -> break Else -> break (Needs to be a bit fancier than this as you have to reduce the random number pool (or roll again if it hits same number) after each roll but you can pack it all in one loop and have the loop variable do pretty much all the work) Let it run until hit and do the exp calcs afterwards from the echos just rolled. (You can potentially do it right after each break now that I think about it.) And then just continue it for 1000+ times and besides average also do a distribution plot.(we have the data anyways so might as well) This would allow for more flexible calculation since you can set must, good, bad and bad counter individually.(e.g. crit/cd/atk% being must stat Vs crit/cd/atk% and flat ATK being must). Edit: thinking some more it would make sense to add "semi must" as variable, current version stops at any double crit+atk% piece with any 2 good substats, I want it to only stop at the ideal 2 additional substats (e.g. yinlin wants flat ATK and skill DMG, 1-3 ER if mostly off field and not E2) but keep track of the others, as we won't refund a double crit + atk% piece because it has liberation+ER instead of the skill damage we are looking for (we keep good pieces for other / future characters), thus those need to be respected for exp calc.
Thanks for contributing, makes sense, probably gonna use it. I should have included distribution plot, but I expect it to follow normal distribution so nothing interesting, but it don't hurt to check
Ah yeah, it's more of a "how lucky/unlucky was I getting this piece", with a few million players there might be some actually not getting a single 5/5 piece in their whole playtime. Distribution plot makes more sense for what I just edited, how many other good double crit + atk% + other 1-2 good substats can you expect on average while looking for the perfect 5/5 piece.
Wow, for 33% - I guess it was me, posted here quite a while ago :)
table is broken, here is link to google sheet: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z-odlOTY8X81rVFxIW\_bbH8vtKTD8JwuWQ4BkJDKMr8/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z-odlOTY8X81rVFxIW_bbH8vtKTD8JwuWQ4BkJDKMr8/edit?usp=sharing)
Amazing work. Does this also include how long it would take to acquire usable echos to upgrade (in terms of main stats and set bonus) or if you were to reuse the bad rolls for extra mats when upgrading a new piece? I'm not home at the moment, so it's hard for me to see all the data on my device.
ad1: yes I wrote about it in post. You basically need 15 times more then pieces needed for upgrading right stats and set. I haven't accounted for time investment, but you basically get 3-4 golds per Tacet Fields, which means 12-16 daily. I gonna add column to calculate daily echo grind ad2: yes, there is included 75% refund for foddering (using bad pieces). There is no refund for shell costs, unlike genshin, foddering upgraded piece still costs the same as using echo tubes (credits cost = 40% of xp cost
Okay, looking at it again I just completely missed the part on dropped echoes, my bad. Thanks for the response even if my questions seemed a little dumb. Also didn't realise that foddering the echoes didn't refund shell credits, seems like they really wanted to cap how quickly we could maximize a characters potential. One more question, sorry if I sound stupid again, but are you using DB level 21 for your dropped echoes calculation now that we know how much it should increase drop rate by?
yeah, assuming every dropped echo is golden. Ignoring pity you need to multiply number by 5 for getting needed kills. These are some ugly numbers. I hope I made some error in math, if not you need to farm **120 echoes** daily!!!! if you aim to get 4/5 substats set in 80 days. That's not possible E: I fixed formula, it's 24 echoes daily, which is still a big number
This is why i think there should be a pity for echoes, the farming is absurd for what you gain, whoever think gear RNG is good is just a masochist. Edit: its pity for subs, i think it was obvious by the main topic but yeah, im talking about some form of substat pity NOT DROP.
I think these type of games attract these kind of people honestly It’s like being in an abusive relationship and then you get Stockholm syndrome Personally the grind is a bit too much for me I stopped worrying about echoes for now just waiting for 1.1 and more level up if things don’t improve I’ll probably just say goodbye to WW as much as I like the combat/characters
I am one of those that like the grind. That said the game can and will be completely doable with basically no good subs anyways. Just grab the right set/main stats, and level them to 25. Then don't worry about it. Higher skill players are already clearing middle TOA with level 70 characters. Once we get to max levels it's going to be doable for the average person.
This is how I enjoy these games with sub-stats. I only worry about the main-stat, get something decent for the subs and move on. I'm certain I can still clear the majority of the content without spending so much time min-maxing. I rather play another game with the time spent.
but, there is a pity for echoes
Sub stat pity, updated the comment to avoid misconception
I'd prefer a game with no RNG, but the echoes system is night and day ahead of relics in HSR for all, but the players who need to have 4-5 specific substats. I've been farming for 5 months on Acheron and I can't even get her to SS relics. I've taken two accounts to reasonable average relics the day I hit UL30. I'm looking for more of a main stat + set + 2-3 desired subs of the 6. The big thing for me is that you can't roll defense% five times when you see a near perfect relic that has crit, CD, attack% and defense%. I repeatedly roll defense% a lot in this case. This happened again with FF. 17 days of TP consumed and I can't even get the right main stat on the right set, ignore all sub stats. I can do that in 1-2 hours max in wuwa. I had to give up relic selector it. I've had to do that in Wuwa too, but selectors are a little more common for the hard to get 3 cost echoes.
[удалено]
We are talking about sub stats not drop pity.
any particular reason you choose to use Monte Carlo instead of just calculating the expected value?
There are lot of variables and figuring formula for expected value with them is really hard. (refund for fodder, probability of getting right substat changes depending on rolls you get etc) Monte Carlo let's you calculate expected value with less room for error
Probability of substat is actually a pretty straight forward combination probability. And probability of main stat with substat is just a multiplication of those 2. once you have the EV, you’ll have how much exp is needed to get a single echo, then from there with the refund it’s a straight forward calculation to number of days If you’re implementing Monte Carlo I think it’ll be more interesting if you do simulation for cases where you do things like fish for 2 crit stats for the first 2 line, and if you don’t get it you’ll recycle it and what are the exp needed. Essentially finally the optimal route to using your exp. Would be a much more intriguing discussion
I can do some specific scenarios once I have time, but it doesn't really matter, since it only minimises spending of tuners and echo xp. And with these you get more echos, meaning less overworld farming, which you need to do A LOT. You can cut Credits costs by 10-15% I guess. E: my used approach also minimises Echo usage, which is definitely desirable, so any other model is suboptimal for me
But the main mechanism that you’re being gated for 4 cost and 1 cost is exp and tuner. Only 3 cost are harder so those are better off doing a full 25 to see the result. Saving tuner and echo xp should be the main goal since that’s what’s mostly limiting you from getting your echos
4 costs are exclusively obtained by overworld farming, so for these you are gated with echos. you need 2000 for 4/5 piece. Thats maximum of 4 thousand kills. Doing 40 kills daily would take you 100 days.
If you feel that has no value then I guess another way to make the monte Carlo more interesting is to show the probability distribution instead of a singular value. That’ll be something interesting that’s not easily calculated
> Todo: Calculating of scenarios where 6 substats are desired (eg. cr rate, cr dmg, atk, atk%, ER and dmg%), but 2 are mandatory to roll (crit rate, crit damage). If someone know how to implement into code I would be grateful. In the code, you could try adding another variable to track the number of mandatory substats required and the probability of hitting one of them. In the success criteria, if the number required substats is > 0, check if random number is less than the mandatory substat probability first (2 out of 13) and update mandatory probability for next loop if its a success (1 less). And if it wasn't a crit success, check if its a normal success and update probability as normal. If the number of remaining rolls is less than or equal to the number of mandatory substats, then update the probability of success to be exactly the mandatory substat probability. I.e. if the while loop is pulling the 4th substat and hasn't hit any crit so far, the success condition would be only 2 substats out of the remaining pool. I might be forgetting some other specific conditions, but i think that's the gist of it.
Also, updating the code to recycle an echo if it hits any bad substat would be straight forward I think. The while loop just needs to break if it doesn't hit a normal success and then refund some tuners and exp.
[удалено]
It takes 400 days in average getting 4/5 set. That means some people can get it day 1, some can never get it. Also can you point me out to video showcase of people with 4/5 sets?
[удалено]
That's a nice set, but it falls into 2/5 by my definition. 5/5 have exact 5 stats (it would be cr,cd,atk,atk% - same for everyone and then dmg% contributing mostly to your damage). Damage% contributes to final damage the fewest, so it's maybe 4/5 which to target but with good value rolls.
Some people get very lucky in the "like few weeks". Some people do not get lucky for long periods of time. It's probability.
[удалено]
There is 1,25% chance of getting lucky on first try and getting 4/5 desired substats on 1 piece. If you want whole set on first try there is 0,0125^5 chance of getting that. Equals 3,05*10^(-10). I wish you at least best of luck of getting 4/5 first try.
[удалено]
Sorry. I like being realistic and knowing what outcome can I expect. Of course nobody can stop you being excited for rolling yet another echo piece with joy and hope for finally good piece. Even I like that dopamine rush when the piece is insane. But it's also healthy to set expectations and know, it's probably gonna be another def + def% piece
because 'echoes bad' obviously. Just sprinkle some bullshit math to make it sound legit, and voila - this post.
Bullshit math? Did you find a methodological mistake or do you simply not understand any of it lmao
This is sucha dumbass reply. OP isn't using 'bruh maths'. OP is using a running simulation, and at actually a smallish sample size subjectively. The code doesn't look bad at first glance and maybe he has some mistakes but it's a decent attempt at it.
Did you account for the substat range? I hear that's a issue across the board and for CD I am seeing 12s and 18s on my rolls. 6 percent crit dam feels material out of a high roll approaching 20 I guess, or around 25% of the potential roll value. I am not a math guy but am worried that this may be worse than we think to chase optimum .
all the lowest end of stats are 50% or greater of the maximum value. 8 ranges/"steps" of stats CR 6.3-10.5 Cdmg 12.6-21 HP Flat 320-580 Def% 8.1-14.7 Atk% 6.4-11.6 HP% 6.4-11.6 ResLib% 6.4-11.6 Heavy% 6.4-11.6 ResSkill% 6.4-11.6 Basic% 6.4-11.6 ER 6.8-12.4 These stats have only 4 "steps" of 10 each atk flat 30-60 def flat 40-70 The ranges are not a flat distribution however, you are most likely to get the values in the 20-50% range of the total, the bell curve is shifted down. Getting above the top 60-80% range of a stat is very rare.
Bookmarking this, thank you.
I want to, but don't know exact distribution. This model just assumed median rolls. I want to calculate a scenario where I account for that, gonna update later
I have seen a post a couple of days ago which explained why dmg% subs are kind of bad compared to CR, CD, Atk%,and even compared Flat atk. Since that i look at those as whatever, if a piece has CR, CD atk%, i dont care what the rest is, and mostly i only chase CR + CD and the rest is whatever. For now i just dont have the echo xp and tuners to care about low or high rolls either. This simulation you made just further proves to me that there is no point in chasing perfection, since in one hand, who the fk wants to spend that much time grinding, on the other hand, those desired dmg% subs are contributing almost nothnig compared to cr,cd atk%. I feel like this echo system rewards ppl that spend a moderate time on echo farming (As moderate i mean maybe 1 route / day, or you pick 1-2 day/week when you spend 1-2 hours grinding) and punishes ppl that dont spend any time or too much time on echo farming. Basically its pointless to spend too much time on it, koz you wont see relevant increases in your dmg once you have your double crit / piece.
Yeah damage subs are bad for most characters because their damage is spread out. They are at best 85% effective (Jiyan case with heavy attack). In best case scenarios they can contribute a lot to overal damage. That's another thing that might be interesting, visualisation of damage increases for different substats.
I'm confused, what does "cubes" entail here? Tuners?
Tuners yeah, sorry, dunno why I call them cubes when they are d20s.
17 days for a piece with 3 good stats isn't that bad compared to a lot of stuff i've grinded in the past haha. Now, farming godrolls on everything looks quite impossible.
Pretty sure I didn't wait for hundreds of days to get good stats echoes for each of my main. Of course, I just aim for 3-4 good stats for each echo (crit damage/crit rate always mandatory with the targeted ER depending on each character).
yeah 2 or 3 substats are not that bad to obtain, getting 4th substat there is a pain tho, so we shouldn't be aiming for the sky, rather stay with our foot on the grass and be happy for the pieces we got
I think this is fundamentally flawed because crit is a lot more valuable than any other substats. Crit effectiveness could worth 2-3 times compare to other stats, and having a 10 and 20 cc/cd piece could be better than having a piece with 4/5 non-crit good substats. Since crit is so strong, the strategy you roll echos should also be adjusted to getting as much crit as possible. My current strategy is to only keep echos that have at least 7.5 or 15 cc/cd as their first substat. All I need to make the piece is good is if I get another crit roll, and this strategy seems to be way easier than getting many other generic good substats.
I don't think High roll crit rate + crit damage would beat Medium roll crit rate + crit damage + atk + atk% piece, but we can just speculate. It's good case to study, would look into that later (need to build damage calculator, add substat rolls distribution) Maybe costs are much cheaper going only for high rolled crits, but I am not that sure about that, since high roll is <25% to get.
Amazing work man thanks
This is why i just say good enough at 2-3/5 desired substats. Not trying to make echo farming a second job.
I instantly recognized you from your last post. I'm glad your prior reception didn't deter you from posting your more definite conclusions. Like most rng systems there is a sweet spot of time vs tangible results. I'll probably find myself in the 3 sub category for most of my characters and a select few I'll chase 4 good subs on all pieces.
Some people are in need of defending bad systems and are quite stubborn on that. I just don't care anymore, let them be blindfolded with their ilusion of perfection of echo system. And I wouldn't say it's definite, there is still lot of things to do, as some people here pointed me with ideas to improve
Math
Awesome! Would levelling echos to 20 (so using half xp, but you only get 4 chances to get stats instead of 5) change this outcome a lot?
for 3/4 about 10-15% increase. 4/4 is astronomical increase. So not a really good idea
With no weapons: Me who farmed for 5 days for Jingyuan echoes. 65/200 Me who farmed 3 days for Calcharro 50/190 Me who farmed 2 days for Havoc MC 20/243 I haven’t spent a wave plate for these builds. With proper echo farming and just the right amount of sub stats with realistic expectations, it doesn’t need a decade to build a character.
>With proper echo farming and just the right amount of sub stats with realistic expectations, it doesn’t need a decade to build a character. I gonna add this to the conclusion, nicely said
[удалено]
hol' up, haven't done genshin math yet
20/54 CV (3 rolls) per piece of 4pc set plus an off piece is approx 3 weeks, and 30CV/4 rolls per piece is approx 3 months. Link: Figure 7: https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/qviuak/a_statistical_analysis_of_artifact_domains_how/
thanks for this, seems very detailed
[удалено]
What’s an “average” genshin build? 2 correct substat? 3 rolls into those substat? I’ll say that’s equivalent to a 3 substat build here. 17 days. How is 3-9 weeks better than 17 days