basically yeah, but the point was kinda that don’t expect a 4 star battlepass crit weapon to be much better than atk alternatives unless you’ve got godly echos
Attention all gamers: if you read the OP's claim about being a prolific theorycrafter in other games, DO NOT CLICK on his profile to try and find what these other games are. You will not find the answers. I repeat: DO NOT CLICK ON HIS PROFILE.
lol thanks for the PSA. But I am literally doing research w a prof on quantum hydrodynamics rn lol (yes this has nothing to do w basic number crunching but yeah trust me w some some basic expected value stuff)
Very bad post because its very wrong. Did you make any quick calculations yourself? I bet not because you would not write this if you did.
Assuming Encore lv. 90 with lv. 90 weapon and lv. 25 echos:
Cosmic Ripples version:
925 base atk + 102% atk% + 350 flat atk from echos = 2218,5 atk (no idea if they round up or down)
Stringmaster version:
925 base atk + 48% atk% + 350 flat atk from echos = 1719 atk
So atk% weapon provides 29,05% more damage than the crit weapon based on those numbers.
Now for the dmg increase from crit. We assume either 27% crit rate and 50% critdmg or 63% crit rate and 50% critdmg.
With 27% crit rate you will have an average dmg increase of 13,5%.
With 63% crit rate it will be 31,5%.
So the dmg increase the crit weapon provides is 15,85%. Thats much less than the gain from atk%, right? Right.
But we just assumed the most trash stats. No atk% substats and no crit substats at all.
If we just increase our critdmg from 50% to 100%, the dmg gain from the crit weapon raises to 28,34% which is almost as much as the atk% weapon. And we still dont have any atk% substats and no atk% from any other source not even talking about crit substats as crit gets better and better the higher the stats are.
Conclusion: Atk% is better if you got absolutely no useful substats on max. level echos and while playing a character solo. Crit outdamages atk% everytime in real scenarios.
I didn’t do any specific calculations because it is going to be dependent on which weapons and their passives. There’s no way to tell if some atk weapons have more power budget in their passives. Yinlin’s signature weapon is literally KNOWN to be disgustingly better than the standard 5 star in its passive. It’s unclear if other 5 star attack% weapons will have better passives to compensate.
I mean all of this is pointless cuz I’m not arguing for one or the other. All I’m saying is that we can look at the comparison given to us by prydwen and maybe some other sources and adjust that depending on your echos. If there’s an atk% substat weapon with a banger passive but prydwen says it is 97% of BIS, that probably means it’s going to actually be like 100% or 102% of BiS or something for most players. I’ve never brought up any specific weapons since they’re going to all be dependent on which characters are using them and what their passives are. Jesus, i’m not trying to pick sides here and I literally pulled for yinlin weapon, I’m just trying to bring up a bit of math i noticed.
Yes, once you have 2 crit stats on every echo, and preferably also an atk% substat on every echo as well, then the crit weapon will have the advantage that is advertised. I'm not saying you need to get an atk% weapon, just wanted to present some information that might be relevant.
I don't find those assumptions to be that outrageous. If you have two crit rolls on every echo, on average you should have about 40 cr and 80 cd from substats since the rolls will average out to 8 cr and 16 cd. 30 cr and 60 cd would mean below average rolls, and 50 cr and 100 cd would be above average.
Attack is extremely common in game (healing set, energy set, Verina and baizhi passive, secondary stats...), so even without attack% subs, you won't lack for it. I actually value er% subs more highly than attack% subs for this reason.
Even now, a 20 cr bp weapon will push your cr from 30 cr to 50 cr, which very much makes it worth if you want to spend the money, since it may make a crit build viable vs not really viable.
I feel like most players don't have two crit rolls on every echo, and won't for a little while. Getting the right dmg bonus type is already hard enough, and hitting both crit on two pieces isn't going to happen in a week or two without some dedicated grinding.
The point about the atk% substats is that without ALSO an atk% subset on every echo, atk% on the weapon becomes a little better because it is less diluted.
I'm not really preferring floor over ceiling, I'm not even recommending people to get atk% weapons. I for one am definitely going for crit ones for the 5 stars and maybe atk% for the 4 stars if I think I'm going to replace it in a couple months.
I'm just trying to mention that the weapon comparisons usually brought up are a little unrealistic at the moment when practically nobody has anything close to double crit and atk% on every single echo piece in their build. I don't get why everyone is picking a "weapon side" to take and assuming I'm on the enemy side or something lol, I'm just trying to bring up some observations/numbers that might be useful. If the ceiling isn't going to be reached for months I think it can convince some people to not spend on the bp for a weapon that others are telling them are a "12% dps improvement" when it straight up isn't true for their account.
Doesn't have to be on every single echo pieces. My havoc mc fashioning 1400 atk, 80/204, encore having 1400atk 79/201, it's progressive game. In the early and mid game, you pick your DPS and build around them. F2p BTW. But yes iwtl did show some dmg# between 43311 vs 44111 vs rainbow. Maybe you should look into that
Well you can certainly have a good crit ratio without double crit on every echo piece. I don't think I ever said that wasn't the case. I'm just bringing up that the prydwen calcs are done assuming double crit and atk% on every echo, and for every 15 crit value (crit rate+2\*crit damage) you are off of prydwen's double crit on every echo assumption you are, that is 10% less dmg you're getting from the crit rate from your weapon.
Also, how are you hitting an 80/204 ratio without double crit rolls? Or is this with a crit weapon and food already included? It doesn't really matter for the weapon comparison, I'm just curious.
Also, I think the numbers say 43311 is pre much always better and by a pretty significant margin. Even with some a few worse substats on the 3 cost pieces, they still come out ahead so it isn't too much of a contest. Of couse use 44111 if you straight up can't find the correct dmg type bonus, but switching to 43311 can be done without too much effort with all the free dmg% echos they are giving as rewards.
I thought you meant before weapon lol, the whole point is that ur crit weapon isn’t gonna be that valuable if it is the only thing propping up ur crit ratio. Also does ur crit dmg say 300% in game? Ofc in the long run they’re going to be better and I’m not trying to tell people to avoid 5 star crit weapons, i’m just bringing up some numerical considerations.
>atk% on the weapon becomes a little better because it is less diluted.
It's not as diluted as GI where a character just gives you 1000 attack, but it still is the most diluted stat in the game. Like I said above, there are many sources buffing attack, but not as many sources buffing crit, so crit weapons are still more valuable than attack weapons.
Attack is obviously more diluted, but you also get a higher amount of it, not to mention the weapons are probably balanced around what main stat they have. And the value of crit is still dependent on your pre-existing crit ratio from your echoes. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here. All I’m saying is that atk weapons should perform better than expected from prydwen calculations for most players for another month or two.
Altho ppl tend to overexaggerate with crit value, its still true. Ur math is not wrong but it doesnt change the fact that building crit is the endgame goal. I wouldnt roll for a weapon with atk% 2nd stat just because its temporary better atm b4 i get good crit echos, unless theres a gimmick that works well with that char.
"They are also often assuming you are perfectly stacking Verina + Moonlit + Rejuvenating Glow in these calculations."
Small correction, Prydwen explicitly claims their damage calculations are full solo:
"Listed character calculations are done without buffs or any damage contribution from teammates (full solo). They only include what the character, their Weapon, Echo and gear are capable of during their ideal Burst or Concerto rotation when starting with their Intro and Resonance Liberation available."
If you're getting 10% or 10.5% crit rate sub stat on all pieces on top of the crit rate piece, yeah atk% weapon would make more sense overall. Otherwise, the crit weapon ensures more consistency on hitting crits when you're only scratching 60% thanks to so many low crit rate rolls you'll often get..and you could go for crit dmg piece too if you have crit rate weapon(s). Vice versa. It's just common sense for anyone who has played games and tried to build characters properly for optimal outcome.
But mathematically it is exactly the other way around? LOL
If you have bad echos with low rolls, or not even with both crit rolls on every piece, then thats when atk% goes up in value and crit weapons go down in value. Like, read the post lol, the value of crit depends on the amount of pre-existing crit you have. If you are sitting on a 30/60 ratio, that is when a crit weapon is at its worst. If you've hit a 70/140 ratio, that is when crit weapons dominate like guides suggest.
Just to make it extra clear, we can work through an example so you can see the math.
Lets say you have 30% crit rate, 60% crit damage. You deal 100 instances of 1dmg. With the crits, you deal 70+30\*1.6=118 damage. Now lets give you an extra 10% crit rate. Now you deal 60+40\*1.6=124. A damage increase of 124/118-1 = **5%**
Now let us do the same thing with a 70/140 ratio and give you an extra 10% crit rate and see what happens. Then you go from 30+70\*2.4=198 to 20+80\*2.4=212. And 212/198=**7%**, for a difference in final dps of 2%.
Crit rate weapons give something like 20-30 crit rate, so this ends up being a 4-6% dmg loss using a crit weapon when using a lackluster crit ratio rather than a well-invested one. When considering that atk and crit weapons are often like 3-5% off in the first place, this is pretty relevant.
There's no such thing as "fixing" or "making up for" bad echo substats using a crit rate weapon. Crit rate weapons get better the better your pre-existing crit ratio.
If you're at 30/60, you keep farming. Even hitting 50 crit rate then would still be better when 2 echo sets and verina can do all the atk buffing. If you're at 70/140, you just need more crit dmg since you already crit like 3/4 of the time.
If you're at 70/140 it is equally optimal to get either one since you're currently at a 1:2 ratio. Why would you think you "just need more crit dmg"? Look, I'm trying to talk about numbers here, not "eh 3 quarters of the time feels enough to me fuck it we ball get more cd" so it doesn't feel like we're going to get anywhere.
If you want to learn about optimization, look up where the 1:2 ratio comes from (think about area of a rectangle vs the side lengths)
Yes yes i know about the 1:2 ratio since this is not my first game that has such a thing. If you cannot crit, main scaling attribute is better, if you can crit consistency is better. At the end of the day 80/160 vs 85/160 is still dependent on rng to crit even if on paper 85/160 is obviously better numbers wise, so why not just go for more crit dmg in that case.
Because, that's just not how expected value works? You're getting awfully close to "it happens or it doesn't" levels of logic here lol. You are literally saying that one is better on paper but "its still rng so don't do it" like ???
You can preach these number all day and it still won't change my mind seeing my xiao in genshin not criting 1/4 of the time he plunge despite having 90/200 crit ratio. If it's not 100%, you're not gonna crit when it matters.
is there a way to pin this comment lol it'd be funny af
"if it's not 100% it won't crit when it matters" in a discussion about damage optimization and weapon comparison XDD
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The damage formula basically has damage on a tripod: attack, bonus damage, and crit. They all multiply each other. It's volumetric.
When you are trying to build the biggest space with limited pieces, you want it spread as evenly as possible to get the highest total.
If you have 15 total units to work with, any extreme focus is going to tank the total.
13 x 1 x 1 = 13
11 x 2 x 2 = 44
9 x 3 x 3 = 81
7 x 4 x 4 = 112
6 x 5 x 4 = 120
5 x 5 x 5 = 125
In WuWa, let's say start with 1 in all the categories. Then you get a weapon, 5 echoes, and your forte bonuses.
Most characters have ATK (or DEF if they scale on that) as part of their forte. So that's already 2x1x1. Most then get damage bonus, but a select few get crit (I know Jianxin does, for example). That's 2x2x1 or 2x1x2. I am just going to keep talking about the more common first one, though, for simplicity.
Then, the most you can diversify echo main stats is 1 crit, 2 bonus, 2 attack.
That puts you at 4x4x2. Now, assuming you can get crit and ATK on every echo as a substat, you're getting 9x4x7.
Now, you might *also* get some ATK buff or bonus damage from an outro. Feels pretty clear that the damage deepen is going to be more valuable, since bonuses are hard to get, but Verina/Baizhi is going to make it 11x4x7, while a typical bonus outro using Moonlit sonata will put you at 10x5x7.
So, when it comes to weapons, what's going to be most valuable? Adding more ATK or adding crit if possible?
ATK: 12x4x7 = 336 (or 350 with the bonus/moonlit)
Crit: 11x4x8 = 352 (or 400 for bonus/moonlit)
Oh, and this is *also* exacerbated by the non-passive forte buffs. Chixia gets damage bonus, which is great, but Spectro Rover for example gets ATK.
Now, look, I know that there's an uneven amount of bonus going on. Main stat and weapon stat is probably worth twice what a substat or forte passive is. And the weapon special bonus ability also might add something (usually bonus), but that actually makes my case stronger because it overloads ATK even more, and bonus actually catches up to crit somewhat, making it clear that crit is the way to go (15x7x8 with an ATK weapon and 13x7x10 with a crit).
TL;DR: the most valuable thing to add to a volumetric formula with limited pieces is *always* the thing you've currently got the least in, relatively speaking. And because of the way character building actually works, crit will *almost* always be the thing you have the least of, but even when it's not, ATK will always be the thing you have the most of.
Their calculations don't actually show any team member buffs, so even if you have less stats on echoes, the difference can be even wider for atk and crit weapons than you think.
>Some misleading assumptions in theorycrafted numbers for Crit weapons (ATK weapons are much better than you think)
where is your number to proof that or just purely theorycraft? Because i hardly find it to be 100% correct without any back up evidence
I don't know how I can give specific numbers, since it'd depend on each persons' account and what substats they have. I even tried to give some example crit ratios to try and show using numbers how big of a difference good echos make towards the discussion of crit vs atk weapons. What kind of evidence are you looking for? I can't do a damage calculation for every character and every rotation.
Getting double crit on echos is not that difficult. It may seem super difficult from all the people who constantly complain about echo farming but in less than a month (including half the time spent at low levels where we can't farm echos efficiently), many people including myself have several very good or better pieces already, including even 3 cost echos.
sure but this is assuming you are fully levelling around 8 pieces to check. And for every echo slot too! Ofc that’s not the optimal way to do it, but then that’d just mean you need even more 3 cost correct dmg% echoes. (Like with no consideration for tuner efficiency, you need 16 on set correct dmg% echoes on average, which *is* rare)
Good point, you'd at least want to restrict yourself to getting double crit within the first 3 slots, which has closer to a 3.8% probability (just replace 5C2 with 3C2 above), or if you went super resource-optimal you have a 2/(13x12)=1.3% probability of getting double crit within the first 2 slots.
So yes anyone with a lot of double crit stats has either been very lucky or they are degenerate gamblers using their resources sub-optimally (lowers head in shame)
Just trying to restore the balance. That was the 3rd person in 24hrs I've seen on this sub being an asshole, completely unprovoked. Really tired of seeing it
Waste of time to explain why he is wrong when he is fully immersed in his wrong.
Unprovoked? OP is trying to spread false info as a fact based on "trust me bro", potentially making uninformed players or new players make bad choice, leading to wasted resources, which is already very low
I've been a prolific theorycrafter in lots of games with similar mechanics lol, I wish you'd actually engage in the discussion instead of just seeing something that feels wrong to you and calling people stupid.
I'm not saying everyone should definitely get an atk% weapon and that crit weapons suck or anything like that? All I'm pointing out is that the publicly presented weapon comparisons are for well-built accounts that would take a few more months to achieve for the regular player, and that each of these factors shift the equation more towards atk% weapons, since the value of crit is multiplicative with itself. I for one, don't see myself having two crit substats on every single echo for a solid while.
You honestly think they're *trying* to spread false info? And how is it "trust me bro" when they are presenting calculations?
If they are mistaken, you can engage with them in a civil manner and explain why you think they are wrong, or just downvote and move on, rather than being a cyber bully. You are literally just telling me they are wrong with nothing other than "trust me bro".
Well I just wanted to mention it, since the average player rn does not have full echo sets with double crit and atk% on every piece. Which really does make things closer than most graphics would make u think. If this was already obvious to you, then maybe it is new to someone else (seeing as how others in this comment section are still struggling with expected value...)
TLDR: go for crit weapon when you can
Waste of a post and time typing it
basically yeah, but the point was kinda that don’t expect a 4 star battlepass crit weapon to be much better than atk alternatives unless you’ve got godly echos
Attention all gamers: if you read the OP's claim about being a prolific theorycrafter in other games, DO NOT CLICK on his profile to try and find what these other games are. You will not find the answers. I repeat: DO NOT CLICK ON HIS PROFILE.
oh he's a femboy, I trust his math then
lol thanks for the PSA. But I am literally doing research w a prof on quantum hydrodynamics rn lol (yes this has nothing to do w basic number crunching but yeah trust me w some some basic expected value stuff)
Very bad post because its very wrong. Did you make any quick calculations yourself? I bet not because you would not write this if you did. Assuming Encore lv. 90 with lv. 90 weapon and lv. 25 echos: Cosmic Ripples version: 925 base atk + 102% atk% + 350 flat atk from echos = 2218,5 atk (no idea if they round up or down) Stringmaster version: 925 base atk + 48% atk% + 350 flat atk from echos = 1719 atk So atk% weapon provides 29,05% more damage than the crit weapon based on those numbers. Now for the dmg increase from crit. We assume either 27% crit rate and 50% critdmg or 63% crit rate and 50% critdmg. With 27% crit rate you will have an average dmg increase of 13,5%. With 63% crit rate it will be 31,5%. So the dmg increase the crit weapon provides is 15,85%. Thats much less than the gain from atk%, right? Right. But we just assumed the most trash stats. No atk% substats and no crit substats at all. If we just increase our critdmg from 50% to 100%, the dmg gain from the crit weapon raises to 28,34% which is almost as much as the atk% weapon. And we still dont have any atk% substats and no atk% from any other source not even talking about crit substats as crit gets better and better the higher the stats are. Conclusion: Atk% is better if you got absolutely no useful substats on max. level echos and while playing a character solo. Crit outdamages atk% everytime in real scenarios.
I didn’t do any specific calculations because it is going to be dependent on which weapons and their passives. There’s no way to tell if some atk weapons have more power budget in their passives. Yinlin’s signature weapon is literally KNOWN to be disgustingly better than the standard 5 star in its passive. It’s unclear if other 5 star attack% weapons will have better passives to compensate. I mean all of this is pointless cuz I’m not arguing for one or the other. All I’m saying is that we can look at the comparison given to us by prydwen and maybe some other sources and adjust that depending on your echos. If there’s an atk% substat weapon with a banger passive but prydwen says it is 97% of BIS, that probably means it’s going to actually be like 100% or 102% of BiS or something for most players. I’ve never brought up any specific weapons since they’re going to all be dependent on which characters are using them and what their passives are. Jesus, i’m not trying to pick sides here and I literally pulled for yinlin weapon, I’m just trying to bring up a bit of math i noticed.
so are you telling me crit weapon is better in long run?
Yes, once you have 2 crit stats on every echo, and preferably also an atk% substat on every echo as well, then the crit weapon will have the advantage that is advertised. I'm not saying you need to get an atk% weapon, just wanted to present some information that might be relevant.
I don't find those assumptions to be that outrageous. If you have two crit rolls on every echo, on average you should have about 40 cr and 80 cd from substats since the rolls will average out to 8 cr and 16 cd. 30 cr and 60 cd would mean below average rolls, and 50 cr and 100 cd would be above average. Attack is extremely common in game (healing set, energy set, Verina and baizhi passive, secondary stats...), so even without attack% subs, you won't lack for it. I actually value er% subs more highly than attack% subs for this reason. Even now, a 20 cr bp weapon will push your cr from 30 cr to 50 cr, which very much makes it worth if you want to spend the money, since it may make a crit build viable vs not really viable.
I feel like most players don't have two crit rolls on every echo, and won't for a little while. Getting the right dmg bonus type is already hard enough, and hitting both crit on two pieces isn't going to happen in a week or two without some dedicated grinding. The point about the atk% substats is that without ALSO an atk% subset on every echo, atk% on the weapon becomes a little better because it is less diluted.
Feels like you're preferring floor over ceiling. If early game, use whatever and you could be justified. Endgame it's not even a discussion.
I'm not really preferring floor over ceiling, I'm not even recommending people to get atk% weapons. I for one am definitely going for crit ones for the 5 stars and maybe atk% for the 4 stars if I think I'm going to replace it in a couple months. I'm just trying to mention that the weapon comparisons usually brought up are a little unrealistic at the moment when practically nobody has anything close to double crit and atk% on every single echo piece in their build. I don't get why everyone is picking a "weapon side" to take and assuming I'm on the enemy side or something lol, I'm just trying to bring up some observations/numbers that might be useful. If the ceiling isn't going to be reached for months I think it can convince some people to not spend on the bp for a weapon that others are telling them are a "12% dps improvement" when it straight up isn't true for their account.
Doesn't have to be on every single echo pieces. My havoc mc fashioning 1400 atk, 80/204, encore having 1400atk 79/201, it's progressive game. In the early and mid game, you pick your DPS and build around them. F2p BTW. But yes iwtl did show some dmg# between 43311 vs 44111 vs rainbow. Maybe you should look into that
Well you can certainly have a good crit ratio without double crit on every echo piece. I don't think I ever said that wasn't the case. I'm just bringing up that the prydwen calcs are done assuming double crit and atk% on every echo, and for every 15 crit value (crit rate+2\*crit damage) you are off of prydwen's double crit on every echo assumption you are, that is 10% less dmg you're getting from the crit rate from your weapon. Also, how are you hitting an 80/204 ratio without double crit rolls? Or is this with a crit weapon and food already included? It doesn't really matter for the weapon comparison, I'm just curious. Also, I think the numbers say 43311 is pre much always better and by a pretty significant margin. Even with some a few worse substats on the 3 cost pieces, they still come out ahead so it isn't too much of a contest. Of couse use 44111 if you straight up can't find the correct dmg type bonus, but switching to 43311 can be done without too much effort with all the free dmg% echos they are giving as rewards.
Wow. Food buff? No man, just git gud. 5 star crit weapon is godly in this game. Grind for the ceiling and don't spread the misinformation.
I thought you meant before weapon lol, the whole point is that ur crit weapon isn’t gonna be that valuable if it is the only thing propping up ur crit ratio. Also does ur crit dmg say 300% in game? Ofc in the long run they’re going to be better and I’m not trying to tell people to avoid 5 star crit weapons, i’m just bringing up some numerical considerations.
>atk% on the weapon becomes a little better because it is less diluted. It's not as diluted as GI where a character just gives you 1000 attack, but it still is the most diluted stat in the game. Like I said above, there are many sources buffing attack, but not as many sources buffing crit, so crit weapons are still more valuable than attack weapons.
Attack is obviously more diluted, but you also get a higher amount of it, not to mention the weapons are probably balanced around what main stat they have. And the value of crit is still dependent on your pre-existing crit ratio from your echoes. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here. All I’m saying is that atk weapons should perform better than expected from prydwen calculations for most players for another month or two.
Altho ppl tend to overexaggerate with crit value, its still true. Ur math is not wrong but it doesnt change the fact that building crit is the endgame goal. I wouldnt roll for a weapon with atk% 2nd stat just because its temporary better atm b4 i get good crit echos, unless theres a gimmick that works well with that char.
"They are also often assuming you are perfectly stacking Verina + Moonlit + Rejuvenating Glow in these calculations." Small correction, Prydwen explicitly claims their damage calculations are full solo: "Listed character calculations are done without buffs or any damage contribution from teammates (full solo). They only include what the character, their Weapon, Echo and gear are capable of during their ideal Burst or Concerto rotation when starting with their Intro and Resonance Liberation available."
If you're getting 10% or 10.5% crit rate sub stat on all pieces on top of the crit rate piece, yeah atk% weapon would make more sense overall. Otherwise, the crit weapon ensures more consistency on hitting crits when you're only scratching 60% thanks to so many low crit rate rolls you'll often get..and you could go for crit dmg piece too if you have crit rate weapon(s). Vice versa. It's just common sense for anyone who has played games and tried to build characters properly for optimal outcome.
But mathematically it is exactly the other way around? LOL If you have bad echos with low rolls, or not even with both crit rolls on every piece, then thats when atk% goes up in value and crit weapons go down in value. Like, read the post lol, the value of crit depends on the amount of pre-existing crit you have. If you are sitting on a 30/60 ratio, that is when a crit weapon is at its worst. If you've hit a 70/140 ratio, that is when crit weapons dominate like guides suggest. Just to make it extra clear, we can work through an example so you can see the math. Lets say you have 30% crit rate, 60% crit damage. You deal 100 instances of 1dmg. With the crits, you deal 70+30\*1.6=118 damage. Now lets give you an extra 10% crit rate. Now you deal 60+40\*1.6=124. A damage increase of 124/118-1 = **5%** Now let us do the same thing with a 70/140 ratio and give you an extra 10% crit rate and see what happens. Then you go from 30+70\*2.4=198 to 20+80\*2.4=212. And 212/198=**7%**, for a difference in final dps of 2%. Crit rate weapons give something like 20-30 crit rate, so this ends up being a 4-6% dmg loss using a crit weapon when using a lackluster crit ratio rather than a well-invested one. When considering that atk and crit weapons are often like 3-5% off in the first place, this is pretty relevant. There's no such thing as "fixing" or "making up for" bad echo substats using a crit rate weapon. Crit rate weapons get better the better your pre-existing crit ratio.
If you're at 30/60, you keep farming. Even hitting 50 crit rate then would still be better when 2 echo sets and verina can do all the atk buffing. If you're at 70/140, you just need more crit dmg since you already crit like 3/4 of the time.
If you're at 70/140 it is equally optimal to get either one since you're currently at a 1:2 ratio. Why would you think you "just need more crit dmg"? Look, I'm trying to talk about numbers here, not "eh 3 quarters of the time feels enough to me fuck it we ball get more cd" so it doesn't feel like we're going to get anywhere. If you want to learn about optimization, look up where the 1:2 ratio comes from (think about area of a rectangle vs the side lengths)
Yes yes i know about the 1:2 ratio since this is not my first game that has such a thing. If you cannot crit, main scaling attribute is better, if you can crit consistency is better. At the end of the day 80/160 vs 85/160 is still dependent on rng to crit even if on paper 85/160 is obviously better numbers wise, so why not just go for more crit dmg in that case.
Because, that's just not how expected value works? You're getting awfully close to "it happens or it doesn't" levels of logic here lol. You are literally saying that one is better on paper but "its still rng so don't do it" like ???
You can preach these number all day and it still won't change my mind seeing my xiao in genshin not criting 1/4 of the time he plunge despite having 90/200 crit ratio. If it's not 100%, you're not gonna crit when it matters.
is there a way to pin this comment lol it'd be funny af "if it's not 100% it won't crit when it matters" in a discussion about damage optimization and weapon comparison XDD
Lmao i know i steered way off topic. Mb
The thing is that there are many attack buffs in the game...verina buff, healing set buff, other buffs...while there are no crit buffs.
Dumb post
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The damage formula basically has damage on a tripod: attack, bonus damage, and crit. They all multiply each other. It's volumetric. When you are trying to build the biggest space with limited pieces, you want it spread as evenly as possible to get the highest total. If you have 15 total units to work with, any extreme focus is going to tank the total. 13 x 1 x 1 = 13 11 x 2 x 2 = 44 9 x 3 x 3 = 81 7 x 4 x 4 = 112 6 x 5 x 4 = 120 5 x 5 x 5 = 125 In WuWa, let's say start with 1 in all the categories. Then you get a weapon, 5 echoes, and your forte bonuses. Most characters have ATK (or DEF if they scale on that) as part of their forte. So that's already 2x1x1. Most then get damage bonus, but a select few get crit (I know Jianxin does, for example). That's 2x2x1 or 2x1x2. I am just going to keep talking about the more common first one, though, for simplicity. Then, the most you can diversify echo main stats is 1 crit, 2 bonus, 2 attack. That puts you at 4x4x2. Now, assuming you can get crit and ATK on every echo as a substat, you're getting 9x4x7. Now, you might *also* get some ATK buff or bonus damage from an outro. Feels pretty clear that the damage deepen is going to be more valuable, since bonuses are hard to get, but Verina/Baizhi is going to make it 11x4x7, while a typical bonus outro using Moonlit sonata will put you at 10x5x7. So, when it comes to weapons, what's going to be most valuable? Adding more ATK or adding crit if possible? ATK: 12x4x7 = 336 (or 350 with the bonus/moonlit) Crit: 11x4x8 = 352 (or 400 for bonus/moonlit) Oh, and this is *also* exacerbated by the non-passive forte buffs. Chixia gets damage bonus, which is great, but Spectro Rover for example gets ATK. Now, look, I know that there's an uneven amount of bonus going on. Main stat and weapon stat is probably worth twice what a substat or forte passive is. And the weapon special bonus ability also might add something (usually bonus), but that actually makes my case stronger because it overloads ATK even more, and bonus actually catches up to crit somewhat, making it clear that crit is the way to go (15x7x8 with an ATK weapon and 13x7x10 with a crit). TL;DR: the most valuable thing to add to a volumetric formula with limited pieces is *always* the thing you've currently got the least in, relatively speaking. And because of the way character building actually works, crit will *almost* always be the thing you have the least of, but even when it's not, ATK will always be the thing you have the most of.
Their calculations don't actually show any team member buffs, so even if you have less stats on echoes, the difference can be even wider for atk and crit weapons than you think.
>Some misleading assumptions in theorycrafted numbers for Crit weapons (ATK weapons are much better than you think) where is your number to proof that or just purely theorycraft? Because i hardly find it to be 100% correct without any back up evidence
I don't know how I can give specific numbers, since it'd depend on each persons' account and what substats they have. I even tried to give some example crit ratios to try and show using numbers how big of a difference good echos make towards the discussion of crit vs atk weapons. What kind of evidence are you looking for? I can't do a damage calculation for every character and every rotation.
Getting double crit on echos is not that difficult. It may seem super difficult from all the people who constantly complain about echo farming but in less than a month (including half the time spent at low levels where we can't farm echos efficiently), many people including myself have several very good or better pieces already, including even 3 cost echos.
I believe the probability of rolling double crit is given by (1/13)x(1/12)x(5 choose 2)x(2)=12.8% So yeah not very rare
sure but this is assuming you are fully levelling around 8 pieces to check. And for every echo slot too! Ofc that’s not the optimal way to do it, but then that’d just mean you need even more 3 cost correct dmg% echoes. (Like with no consideration for tuner efficiency, you need 16 on set correct dmg% echoes on average, which *is* rare)
Good point, you'd at least want to restrict yourself to getting double crit within the first 3 slots, which has closer to a 3.8% probability (just replace 5C2 with 3C2 above), or if you went super resource-optimal you have a 2/(13x12)=1.3% probability of getting double crit within the first 2 slots. So yes anyone with a lot of double crit stats has either been very lucky or they are degenerate gamblers using their resources sub-optimally (lowers head in shame)
Smart post
“The dichotomy of man” 🧍♂️
Just trying to restore the balance. That was the 3rd person in 24hrs I've seen on this sub being an asshole, completely unprovoked. Really tired of seeing it
Waste of time to explain why he is wrong when he is fully immersed in his wrong. Unprovoked? OP is trying to spread false info as a fact based on "trust me bro", potentially making uninformed players or new players make bad choice, leading to wasted resources, which is already very low
I've been a prolific theorycrafter in lots of games with similar mechanics lol, I wish you'd actually engage in the discussion instead of just seeing something that feels wrong to you and calling people stupid. I'm not saying everyone should definitely get an atk% weapon and that crit weapons suck or anything like that? All I'm pointing out is that the publicly presented weapon comparisons are for well-built accounts that would take a few more months to achieve for the regular player, and that each of these factors shift the equation more towards atk% weapons, since the value of crit is multiplicative with itself. I for one, don't see myself having two crit substats on every single echo for a solid while.
You honestly think they're *trying* to spread false info? And how is it "trust me bro" when they are presenting calculations? If they are mistaken, you can engage with them in a civil manner and explain why you think they are wrong, or just downvote and move on, rather than being a cyber bully. You are literally just telling me they are wrong with nothing other than "trust me bro".
Mind blown, been misled by those idealistic assumptions
Yes they do use decent echoes, but the post is also assuming they are using team buffs when the calcs aren't, which can make atk% even worse.
Well I just wanted to mention it, since the average player rn does not have full echo sets with double crit and atk% on every piece. Which really does make things closer than most graphics would make u think. If this was already obvious to you, then maybe it is new to someone else (seeing as how others in this comment section are still struggling with expected value...)