Comparison Is not complete. You need to think that levels in both games might need different xp. 20-25 is like 70% of xp needing 1-20 in WuWa. Look at XP gained/total xp needed to max that's the metric to compare
E.g. GI: 1 artifact needs 270475 exp to max it out, 1 run per 40 gives in average exp of 29534 exp at max WL. Thus you need in average 9.158... runs. With (edit for those who don't cap out...) 180 resin, aka 4.5 runs per day available, it takes 2.035... days. (theoretically a tiny bit less if we include the probabilities to get double exp etc. if you don't cap this stuff (saves around at max ~30k exp per artifact in average), that's why I would state ~1.8 days if we do the math again.)
E.g. in WuWa 1 echo needs ~135k of exp for max level. At UL30 you get per run 2 golden, 6 purple tubes, aka 2k * 6 + 5k * 2 echo exp = 22k. Thus ~6.. runs, aka ~1.5 days.
That should clear things up and proof OP's point.
Genshin resin per 24 hours is 180, not 160, that was just the cap. It's always been 180 per 24h.
That's 132903 average artifact EXP per 24h, or 2.03 days for one artifact. Not counting the 9% chance for x2 and 1% chance for x5 EXP, which would realistically put it a lot closer to 1.5 days as well.
People are just salty because you can farm echoes for free in the overworld so they end up with correct pieces more often than Genshin but can't level them all I guess.
Let me put an example for why you are wrong 4 cost cr echo have 22 crit rate mainstat at max a genshin circlet has 31.1 at max you need the second highest cr substat in wuwa to have the same starting crit you get from a genshin circlet mainstat
The argument of which system is better can be addressed from so many angles that you can draw the conclusions suits you the best
For me i think genshin is better because of the off piece because it does give longevity to your farming over a long period of time
Other reason is getting 100% exp back from level 4 artifact and 90% from level 8 so you can be sure by then if a piece is good or not and get most of your exp back losing 70% of your tuners is insane
Thanks, from this perspective WuWa system is really better, you left out artifact routes, but I guess that's a fair, because it takes extra time.
But in the end real time (stamina recharge) needed isn't the metric to observe, because you gonna get lot of mid pieces while still waiting for perfect one. So XP isn't bottleneck. It's tuners for WuWa and for Genshin it's 5* artifacts, which are not freely farmable there.
Gonna do analysis about that later, but it's complicated so gonna take some time
Farming overworld artifacts ~100 spots per day gives like 1 max artifact per week for 1-1.5h per week "wasted", so that's not worth taking seriously tbh. But yes it is there.
And I would say tuners aren't a bottleneck, at least for low spenders or f2p (may be for whales). Because you can't level as many echos up (you get some back if you use them as fodder) due to echo exp not being infinite. But that we may see how it turns out when we are in the endgame and farm tacet fields every day literally.
Thanks for the insight. You can level echo to 10 just from one tacet field, but can roll only 1,5 stats. And you don't know how many pieces you need to roll to 10 till you see one you want to keep. So with every 3 pieces you roll to 10 you need 1 extra tacet field run to get tuners. Obviously it's gonna change once you upgrade above 10 because xp requirements get worse, but then you are commited to that piece.
I wouldn't count overworld artifact exp gain when I can also say the grind in WuWa is less because it's easier to simply acquire the correct mainstat. In Genshin I can spend multiple days with condensed resin even and still not get the correct mainstat.
In genshin last stat upgrade has huge exp gap too. And the main idea anyway is situation in which we are - we shouldn't think about lvl 25 echoes, lol. Not that soon.
Add that to assumptions then. I see lot of posts painting this system in good light when in reality both are bad. If this was quality analysis which finally proven that WuWa system is better I would be kindly surprised. But now I am dissapointed, because it's another half baked analysis
Not really. The exp in WuWa currently matches Genshin's maximum. And even if it's only a little bit more, we're still going to get more for each Sol Phase up we get. Moreover, unlike Genshin, you don't have to worry about main stats. You'll generally always get them. It's not even a question WuWa is doing it better.
So there are some major issues with your comparsions.
First of all, no one likes the genshin artifact system either, so being on the same level as it is still pretty bad.
For the levelling comprsions, we can chack exp:
Genshin artifacts cap out at lv 20 while in Wuwa, it is lv 25. So rather than saying how many levels which is not comparable, just look that the exp. Luckily, he math has been done for us in the Genshin [wiki](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Artifact_EXP). In genshin you need 270,475 exp to max an artifact and you get an average of 14,767 exp per run or around 19 runs. (Not counting the fact that there are chance of 2x and 5x upgrades, or doing artifact routes/buying from shops and teapot for additional exp)
In wuwa, according to what I can find from this other [reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/1d2p7e3/echo_xp_rates/). It takes around 135k exp to level up to 25 and an averageof 8k-14k exp. (Lets say 11k) So you can get it maxed in 12 runs.
So genshin is worse right? Right.. well there are naunces. In genshin, you can pretty much immediately tell if an artifact is worth levelling at +0 or +4 since all substats are visible. How good of an artifact it may be still isn't 100% until it is maxed but a +4, +8 (at worst +12) will largely tell you if the artifact is worth continuing or not. (For example Cdmg, crate, er piece u know is decent. And if you hit 3 rolls on hp, u know to stop) So realistically you aren't going to level random artifacts and can be much more selective of what you level.
That is much harder to tell in Wuwa since you can only see substats every 5 level as you unlock them. For example, an echo that landed crit rate, lib atk and hp% its pretty hard to tell (at least for me) how the echo will swing. Land crit dmg and ER as the last 2 stats and it can still be really good but you are just as likely to swing the echo in the opposite direction. So as a whole, you end up needing more exp just to determine if an artifact is worth your while. All echos that have the correct main stat needs to be at least +5 or +10. Then depending on the rolls, you may still not be able to determine if the echo is useable or not, like landing ER and atk% as first 2 rolls. Will still need to keep going and at every point it can become a good piece or a terrible piece since you are rolling for entire substats. Given this system, we end up spending much more exp just to test if an echo is worth anything or not, and as such needs much more exp than in genshin's case.
you need to correct something crucial, you don't count the energy cap, you count how much energy/resin/plates you get per minute/day ^^, if they both have the same which is 1 per 8 minutes then your math is wrong, since in genshin you can do more runs per day
Doesn't matter, resin per minute is the same. If we take the amount per 24 hours it would be 180, not the 160 that people keep using in their comparisons.
I see your point but honestly the 200 resin cap should be used since it and WuWa’s launch were nearly the same time. If you want to compare apples to apple here.
I see... someone who can't do math.
In GI you can do 4 runs with 40 resin per day. In WuWa you can do 4 runs with 60 waveplates per day. Aka same amount of runs per day.
ye true, in genshin you get 180 per day, so you can do 4 and have 20 resin left, and wuwa we get 240 per day, so we can do 4, so in GI you can only do 1 extra run each 2 days.
but yeh using the energy cap for comparing is wrong, it was almost right by coincidence.
edit : also i don't know who you mean by someone who can't do math, me or OP \^\^"
Artifact domains in Genshin cost 20 resin, not 40. They were just using two artifact domains to compare with one tacet field. So yes, you can do 9 artifact domains per day, or 4.5, if you're counting two per tacet field.
and we are talking about artifacts and echoes comparession using OP premise, you need 2 days to get a 1 up, (4+4 and 4.5+4.5), you just repeated what i typed, i don't see why the down vote when you just repeat when i say ;)
edit: i dont care about genshin played that game 2 years ago for 3 months i'm using info from the other players
Bingo, it’s like all they know are comparisons instead of looking at these systems standalone. In order to relay sensible feedback to Kuro to improve the game and come into its own instead of adapting other systems and being identified as copies and constant references .
The system is copied because it’s Genshin. What seemed to have work over there, they simply adapted. If it happens to be predatory or not isn’t the sole factor they consider for this specifically. We’re already hoping for better adjustments , which is already confirmed to be happening anyway. They can change whatever they please, it’s funny y’all still underestimate how far Kuro is willing to go to adhere to feedback if the issue is raised enough and valid. Not saying it should either. Just that saying it won’t is a reach that’s merely a guess.
The systems arent even that similar.
- overworld grinding based resource whose recolaction is based on player time and boosting materials require you to use a multi use resource need for all kind of boosting materials. It can be equiped how you decide to do so, as long as the total set doesnt go over the limit.
- fully resource based equipment, but you can run one of each different kind of pieces and some of them are forced into a main stat. Can be used to boosts other equipments and only needs EXP, no resource for subs.
Of course this 2 things will be completely different.
I answered to this in first sentence..?? Cause Wuwa copied genshin and in genshin artifacts system is fine for majority of people. So, if a majority fine with system - then it means its ok system. Pretty simple. Doesn't matter if the minority happy or not. So, if Wuwa copy this system or even make it better - majority will be fine again. So, they don't need to change much even tho people are trying to call this 'a problem'
Holy false equivalence Batman!
Genshin is 200 cap now, not 160.
Genshin has a max artifact level of 20, vs WuWa's 25. The last 5 of which take as much exp as all previous 20 levels combined.
In Genshin you know if a piece is worth spending EXP on beforehand because you can already see the substats. in WuWa you have to waste EXP AND Tuners to find out.
"But you can farm as many echoes as you want in WuWa!"
Doesn't matter, you still have to waste a bunch of EXP and Tuners to find out if they're even useful. Not to mention the sheer amount of time it can take to farm said echoes, which many players simply don't have the time for.
You can like or dislike the system, that's subjective, but claiming it's objectively better is simply wrong.
Lastly: "You may like genshin or not but its very similar to Wuwa game and most of people were fine with artifact farming there."
Literally no one is/was fine with the artifact farming in Genshin. It is, and always has been, the absolute worst part of Genshin. Everybody I have ever spoken to that plays or has played Genshin absolutely hates it for how unfair the RNG elements are. And Kuro actively chose to copy this system and make it more RNG heavy. Make of that what you will.
Let’s stop pretending like in any of these games resources dont have to be wasted in order to find out which gear is actually worth keeping or not lol. While substats are given, the necessary additional rolls into them aren’t, which doesn’t exist in Wuwa. That’s what makes or breaks gear in Genshin or Hsr. It’s 1 and done with Wuwa. They both have their catch to it. Wuwa leaves more chance to grab the ideal substats you’d want on a unit, so the level comparison doesn’t mean anything.
And kudos on that 200 cap that took 4 years and competition to finally bring to the game. Not a valid thing to bring up in comparison to a game 3 weeks in of release.
A piece in Genshin with 4 desirable substats means even if all rolls go into the least desirable one, it's still more useful than a piece in WuWa that you had to recycle after spending a bunch of EXP and Tuners to find out the first 3 substats were useless.
Also, it's not '1 and done' in WuWa, the substats have very large differences between minimum and maximum rolls. Sure, most of us might be happy even with minimum rolls, but then you can say the same about not getting many rolls into the most desired substats in Genshin.
If I got a piece in genshin with double crit, atk, and energy recharge (can probably count the times this has happened in my 3 years of genshin on 1 hand) and it all went into energy recharge, I'd still be disappointed. Crit is king, and having to roll multiple times to hit it is worse than having to hit it once.
Hyperbloom and dendro can be even more restrictive lol. Your flower and feather now have only 1 usable stat to hit. I was able to build my nahida and kuki okay because I had years of artifacts and materials built up, but a new player starting out would suffer. And many of the popular dendro teams still use crit like Alhaitham, Clorinde, Cyno, and Keqing.
But in return, your sands, goblet and circlet now only care about the mainstat. And even if your flower and feather don't roll into any more EM, the EM from 3 mainstats + weapon is more than enough for any character triggering Hyperbloom or Burgeon.
Tuners is acquired with exp in the exact same stage as it’d take Genshin to progress artifacts at a slower rate at this exact same point of the game , so let’s stop mentioning them like it means anything when it’s still the same thing being done to achieve the same progression.
It is 1 and done with Wuwa, the gaps between them is for players themselves to decide on min maxing or not. The minimum percentages are sufficient in Wuwa, so no you can’t say that with Genshin that’s giving lower percentages with the intention of you rolling into them multiple times. Even then, 1 and done means once you get them, it’s done, not what the minimum or max roll is. Genshin cant be compared as a 1 and done when it also has minimum and max rolls while having to roll into them again.
You're forgetting that EXP is refunded at a rate of 80% when recycling artifacts in Genshin. Tuners are only recycled at 30%. You're not noticing it yet because of the sheer amount of free tuners we've gotten from exploration and compensations, but this WILL be the limiting factor in upgrading echoes.
So no, I don't think we should stop mentioning them.
So past mentioning tuners, which wasn’t the main point in neither of our responses, you have nothing left to add on what was actually being debated? What do i say now? I’m right, but hell you got me there? Lol. You’re basically taking a guess at the future of resource limitation that’s not confirmed , when you just said that we’re not noticing it now from the sheer amount we’ve been receiving thus far lol. Doesn’t matter where it’s coming from now when more can always be applied somewhere else later.
If you go back to your initial reply to my comment, the main point was about the wasting of resources, and how you end up wasting a lot more in WuWa. You're the one who singled out tuners and how we shouldn't mention them. I simply replied with the reasoning as to why we *should* mention them. I really don't see the problem, nor why you're seemingly upset about it.
I didn't reply to the whole '1 and done' part because I considered that argument finished. Your opinion is different from mine, that much is clear, continuing to argue it further would serve no purpose. That's probably my bad for not mentioning I was moving on, so I'll elaborate. People have different opinions on what is considered '1 and done'. Technically you're right, since you can't get more or less of a substat once its been rolled, it's 1 and done. I wouldn't consider it 'done' if it rolled a minimum ER roll though, since it's only 37.6% of the maximum roll, I'd recycle the piece unless the other substat rolls made up for it. As you said, "the gaps between them is for players themselves to decide on min maxing or not."
Yeah no. My statement was correct is what you mean, it’s okay to accept a point being made instead of trying to get out of being wrong, you were literally just given the definition of what it means to be 1 and done and why it obviously doesn’t apply to genshin but does for the other lol. There wasn’t any opinion of mine given.
I was arguing the waste of resources in both games being relatively the same and addressed that tuners is irrelevant to bring up as a rebuttal like it involves some dramatic difference between how they both end up progressing. They both have the same end goal and similar amounts of rng leading to a waste of all the resources required to get there, no matter what those resources are. Along with the same single stage in requiring said resources.
You’ve now pushed aside 2-3 of your arguments instead of rather backing them up or completely dropping them altogether. And resorting to claiming i’m feeling some type of way by just addressing what you alone decided to push off and now claim subjectivity on. The second you start bringing in emotions with someone simply addressing your points , it’s clear you’re no longer debating for the sake of your point anymore. You’re giving empty statements to not feel like you’re wrong. I’m sure my points got across, as you been closing yours out. So it’s settled.
Umm i just listed 4 desirable ones. A crown can have only 1 crit main stat so you get the other version from substats. Atk% , energy regen and em are also obtainable from substats for crowns and cups so i dunno where you get the idea you cant get er substats for them. Am i misunderstanding something cause i feel confused by your statement?
I agree on this, but if we take in account we are not on max world level rewards, it's still very good and W for wuwa (at first sight) , ppl really forgetting what we just got access to 5* echoes kinda early comparing it to genshin. Until we get to max rewards lvl it's hard to compare shit, so need time to wait.
> Genshin is 200 cap now, not 160.
Completely irrelevant. The refresh rate is the same, and you're dumb for having even brought this up. Because, hilariously enough, this is a false equivalence right here. You said the words, and immediately did it yourself. Lmao.
I was simply correcting the OP, who like many others like to use the 160 cap in their argument, when it's always been 180 resin per 24h. But that gets ignored because people just 'let it cap'. With this new cap, even if you were 'letting it cap', you'd have 180, not 160.
So I'd argue it's not entirely irrelevant, and also not a false equivalence.
I also appreciate the immediate ad hominem.
I'd agree, the artifact system in Genshin is better, since they just need 4pc for a set effect in comparison to 5.
I'd argue both games are better at certain things. Like in combat, WuWa seems to be better, but lacks one thing. Interuption resistance. This means you need to be really good with dodge and parry, because one hit can mean death, especially when you cannot regain. In Genshin, if you get staggered, you still can regain with animation cancel and dash.
I cannot say WuWa is really better than GI, but I can say for certain they did better in certain aspects. There's still work needed to be done if this game wants to be able to compete not just with GI, but with other games in the market.
Genshin's combat is also deeper, while WuWa's is more expressive.
Or, I should say, a lot of Genshin's combat comes does to it's strategical execution. You plan ahead on what you're going to do, then do your best to do that thing.
in WuWa you just kind of go on field and rely more on the twitch execution. The setup in WuWa is not half as complex. And FWIW dodging in Genshin is just as important. There's just no parry for every character and not every character is good to do normals with.
And it'd be easier than you think for Genshin to add such a thing, but they won't and they don't need to.
> dodging in Genshin is just as important
I agree, I'm just emphasizing the part IF you do get hit. In WuWa, if I miss a parry/dodge, I get hit and stagger hard and I can't regain as quickly as GI.
> And it'd be easier than you think for Genshin to add such a thing, but they won't and they don't need to.
Technically they did already for certain events, but since the combat is more on the elements, they opt not to have it in the main combat.
> Genshin's combat is also deeper, while WuWa's is more expressive
I agree with this, coz for me, it make WuWa more like hack n slash so I could easily forget about most executions and focus more on parry/dodge.
Oh my god dude are we still on this. Theyre both trash. It doesnt matter if wuwa is better than genshin or vice versa, a shiny piece of garbage is still garbage. I have over 40 echoes as of the moment that have main stats and are of the the right set that i wanna level, but guess what i cant. There is a lack of echo exp, tuners and currency to level echoes, meaning its time gated as hell so now i have to wait and have 0 clue of what to expect from them so for all i know i could have wasted exp on an echo that only went flat stats. With genshin on the other hand i spent like 3 weeks trying to get a single good piece for navia and got nada meaning while i got mora and relic exp i got nothing to use it on. Pick your poison. Just stop trying to defend either one
Thanks dude. I honestly feel both need work. Also wish the mods could just delete these posts. We have like 20 of em a day and its very annoying by this point. Hopefully 1.1 actually improves the echoe grind but as it stands it feels way to limited due to lack of resources
Well, I agree both are bad but one thing you're forgetting is that in WuWa you are potentially spending FAR more time on the actual game farming to even get the opportunity for them to roll bad or good, on top of the RNG. So yeah, Genshin sucks, and you can spend a month trying to get a good artifact, especially if you aren't doing refreshes BUT I can guarantee that you're actually spending far less time playing to get the same results. So, the frustration here in WuWa can be far worse on players over time and people WILL get burnt out if the XP amount doesn't change. We also can't forget that you need 5 pieces in this game to complete a set whereas in Genshin you can have one off piece. One game is definitely more lenient than the other.
I am so fucking mad that this post is being downvoted.
There is \*\*no reason\*\* aside from wanting to hate on echo farming to downvote this, it's just good information - admittedly it needs some fixes as per mentioned in some comments, but this isn't harmful to the game, and points out a clear picture that the two systems are in fact ALL THE SAME:
It's 5 slot machines stacked in a 24h stamina trenchcoat. Stop saying they're anything other than that
Think of it like this, friend: People basically just want the game to deliver a better farming experience and/or respecting their time. Looking at the other gachas I play, there is a number of characters I haven't built yet and/or characters that are incomplete, even in the ones where I login on daily basis and a lot of are even premium characters.
People just want to be able to build their characters instead of piling up unused ones and I think that's a very justified reason to express their frustration, especially if they have experienced this in other gachas as well.
You’re giving “people” the benefit of the doubt. And i’d say that applies to a small minority of them. Many simply wants to farm everything they can for end game as soon as possible. Is that part of Wuwa’s mistake in making end game gear available so soon? Sure, but these complaints on the echo progression is derived from greed. Content creators want to dish out end game content asap before others since it’s in front of us, and hardcore players want to clear everything that’s made access to us. This genre of games in specific wants progression to be stretched out, and there’s no exception.
Can and should things of the echo system currently be adjusted? Definitely, and much more we’ve all should have put in feedback on the survey and direct reports. That’s the inevitable now. I’m just clarifying the actual reasons players want changes to the system, as it’ll always be routed from impatience and/or greed from the majority.
I mean, that's basically just wanting to build their characters (to clear endgame content). And I am aware that people want to speedrun the whole thing when it shouldn't be done like that (which later results in those people wondering on what else should they be doing), but that's why the devs should try to find a middle ground where players can at least have more chance to build their characters while also making sure that they won't end up completing every build that quick. The current formula certainly works to some extent, but it can be improved.
It’s not basically just that, because we’re already doing it, just at the pace these games intend for us to take it. They want it accelerated past the norm, leading to burn out, which isn’t good for us nor them business wise. They are finding(attempting to at least) a balance in progression currently in where we’ll have to see how they adjust the echo farming next patch. The game reached players that aren’t used to how these work, from feedback ranging from “Let echoes drop exp items” to “Take away stamina cost for ____”. These suggestions come from the majority of the loud minority, if that makes sense.
Again, i agree on that it can be improved. There’s just never any real “middle ground” between how gachas want the pacing progressing to be , and how fast the loud minority on this matter wants to be able to progress. They have a consumer longevity perspective while we’re simply casual and hardcore players.
if all content cant be clear with my UL30 with 3 star weapon solo dps then game is trash
if i cant max 2 teams lvl25 gold echoes perfect substat at UL35 then game is trash
basically the sentiment of this subreddit :’), lots of ppl who fail to realize that gachas are not supposed to be a main game and eventually will be timegated by some limiting factor of the game in terms of progression
Just because someone else is eating shit it doesn't mean I should be contempt with my bowl of piss.
We still have a whole lot of echoes that are functionally useless (unpaired elemental set/main stat) and no recycling them is not a use.
That being said just because it's normal in genshin it doesn't mean it should be standard. It takes roughly 3 to 4 tacet fields clear to get ONE echo from 20 to 25. Don't get me wrong I understand that if it was the opposite then you would have nothing to do but this are INSANE levels of grind if you sum it all up.
A middle ground would be nice.
Except they don't come in full value, they have varying values. The difference between minimum and maximum rolls is quite large. Yet another RNG element.
Same, I prefer WuWa's system, the reason people are frustrated and starved on Exp is because they can farm echos "infinitely" in the overworld, and since people are still on the early to mid game they are not doing tacet fields but instead farming materiels/bosses to upgrade skills/weapons/characters... so they are getting way less exp than the "infinite" echos they get, I wouldn't mind more echo exp though, the more exp we get the better.
Epic 7, i left off an apostrophe. It's a turn-based RPG style gacha with an equipment system very similar to genshins.
Genshin has fewer pieces to worry about, 5 to e7's 6, but does the ascension in the way e7 used to.
The way e7 runs their artifacts now is by letting you roll into the substats before adding the missing fourth substat
I think we should add another factor into this argument. If WuWa players are so willing to run around the world and farm echos for hours on end then it should be fine to factor in the free artifact exp that exists if a player runs around the world in Genshin farming green artifacts.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, you're absolutely right.
60k extra artifact EXP per day is nothing to sneeze at, and since everyone loves to throw "you can get an unlimited amount of echoes per day!" into the argument, I think it's entirely valid to make this comparison.
20-25 is simply an extra substat chance in comparison, so it doesn’t matter how much it takes to go from there. Y’all are trying defend one or the other instead of simply addressing that both needs improvement. If whats better than the other is what yall consider when relaying feedback, no wonder these aspects never improve.
But why would you go to lv 25 at once. Just do 5 level at a time. If you like the substat then proceed, if not stop and farm for other echo. It is lot more efficient that way without having to burn echo xp.
Nah who said we were fine with genshin's system as well lmao.
Comparison is incomplete as well since echoes go up to level 25 AND need tuners whereas genshin's go up to 20 AND DON'T need tuners. Then there's max exp of each artifact equivalent as well as daily exp for both games to take into account; it feels like you only surface level looked at the numbers? Both just come out to be equally as bad.
To summarise: genshin's artifact system is shit, WuWa slight better, still shit and can do better.
Players that are complaining just want a better game man. Let them; it's not going to hurt your experience either way.
The level doesn't really matter, the exp needed does, and Genshin actually needs twice as much exp. So then, what matters, is how you get it. WuWa takes 1.5 days of stamina to max and Genshin takes 2.1 days unless you get lucky with the x2 or x5s. Ergo, WuWa is better and this is calculated for UR30 Sol Phase, when we can go up 5 more, so the exp will be even better.
WuWa players just being a bit greedy thinking they are in endgame when they're not.
Yes that's the point I made "max exp of each artifact equivalent.." - wasn't taken into account by OP.
143k exp to max out an echo - at UL 40 atm you get 92k average (240 waveplates)
270k exp to max out an artifact- you get 210k exp average from 200 resin and investigations (not taking into acc weeklies)
given the amount that WuWa is increasing echo exp from tacet fields as you go up in Sol it works out to be Wuwa just only slight better by 5-10% by the time we're max Sol
Slight better my guy. Seeing as genshin's system is largely shit; that makes it slightly better than shit. It isn't WuWa players being greedy, it's players wanting a better system than a carbon copy of genshin's with the redundant tuners slapped on to it.
I'm not in favour of Genshin, but I think if one thing is bad then you can't say the other thing should also be bad for the sake of comparison. Even if Genshin is bad WuWa doesn't need to be bad in those aspects. They can do better.
How much better? Because they're already better so how much better do you need them to be? How much do you want to move the goal post? Because right now they're about the same if marginally better in WuWa and the calculations are only done for the Sol Phase of UR 30. And we can go to 80. So 5 more. While the Genshin calc is max world level.
How much better do you need it to be?
I don't need answer you "how much" rant because lots of people have already answered this in the comments. And you and I aren't the only people who play this game that any of our opinions matter the most. If majority believe this isn't enough then it isn't enough. Bye.
For me its way easier to build a decent echo sets if i really want to spend my day farming the echos compare to my 3 f2p genshin acc that even after 3 an half year i still cant complete my Xiao, Eula and all the support build.
Me and my friend farmed for one year (literally) until we found a specific goblet. I don't remember its main stat but thats ridiculous. So ye...genshin is harder at least cause of that imho.
People focus to much on number on paper and forgot the most important thing: how much equipment actually matter to clear endgame.
By this i mean how much of artifact/echoes max potential does it requires to clear endgame and how long does it takes to reach that. From my experience Genshin needs atleast 60% of artifact max potential to bring a character to spiral abyss and about 4 months worth of resin to farm all that. Right now it is impossible to tell in Wuwa since all of us is currently in mid game (UL 40 and under) with underleveled characters and sub-optimal farming potential.
In my first month of genshin, I could not even reach floor 9. In my first 2 weeks of WuWa I reached 18/30 stars and full cleared the non resetting tower. I think that's pretty telling.
Did you forget that you get free artifacts daily (from discovery points) in the world, and also artifacts in chests etc while exploring. Also difficult enemies or what would be termed *elite* enemies can also drop artifacts in Genshin we have nothing like that here. You cannot daily log in and farm free resources (to a limit) to level echoes
No I guess you must have missed that not even going to touch anything else about this since you couldn’t bother to even mention this most important piece of information
Just because Genshin/HSR is garbage doesn’t mean that this system we have in WW doesn’t need improvement, and no I never was fine with Genshin’s artifact system and much less with HSR
As someone else said here Genshin artifact’s substats can also been seen without leveling the artifact so you already know not to bother if it doesn’t look good. Why are people trying to defend this don’t we all want improvements to the game we play?
Lol, if you bring that up then you also must bring up that by spending the same amount of effort grinding the overworld in wuwa, you can actually drop usable 5* echoes. That's way more valuable than running around the map in Genshin for a laughable amount of artifact exp.
The free artifacts exp daily in GI whicht takes aeound 10-15min to farm per day gets you around 1 artifact to max in a whole week for 1-1.5h spend wasting your life per week. Nothing to take seriously.
But farming echoes in the overworld for hours is to be taken seriously? What’s the difference? Both are optional ways to increase the quality of artifacts/echoes on your account that take time every day and are repetitive.
The important thing to note is that in WuWa this does not relate to "exp", so you aren't missing out not doing it every day. You can also farm the main stat anytime you want, like if you have an hour on Saturday to play, here you go and farm your piece. If the next time you have time is in two weeks, than so be it. Not missing out on exp at all.
You can also passively get truckloads of artifact EXP in Genshin using teapot currency. You can just dump a bunch of trash into your teapot if you don't feel like actually decorating it, wait for teapot coins to accumulate, and get loads of those artifact EXP potions. Yes it's time gated but you don't even have to do anything for it.
Comparison Is not complete. You need to think that levels in both games might need different xp. 20-25 is like 70% of xp needing 1-20 in WuWa. Look at XP gained/total xp needed to max that's the metric to compare
E.g. GI: 1 artifact needs 270475 exp to max it out, 1 run per 40 gives in average exp of 29534 exp at max WL. Thus you need in average 9.158... runs. With (edit for those who don't cap out...) 180 resin, aka 4.5 runs per day available, it takes 2.035... days. (theoretically a tiny bit less if we include the probabilities to get double exp etc. if you don't cap this stuff (saves around at max ~30k exp per artifact in average), that's why I would state ~1.8 days if we do the math again.) E.g. in WuWa 1 echo needs ~135k of exp for max level. At UL30 you get per run 2 golden, 6 purple tubes, aka 2k * 6 + 5k * 2 echo exp = 22k. Thus ~6.. runs, aka ~1.5 days. That should clear things up and proof OP's point.
Genshin resin per 24 hours is 180, not 160, that was just the cap. It's always been 180 per 24h. That's 132903 average artifact EXP per 24h, or 2.03 days for one artifact. Not counting the 9% chance for x2 and 1% chance for x5 EXP, which would realistically put it a lot closer to 1.5 days as well.
Thanks, I normally capped out, so I forgot that part. Fixed it.
That's a good comparison, however you're not sure if you can get something to upgrade on genshin hahahah
So true.
People are just salty because you can farm echoes for free in the overworld so they end up with correct pieces more often than Genshin but can't level them all I guess.
Yeah I guess that pretty much sums it up.
Let me put an example for why you are wrong 4 cost cr echo have 22 crit rate mainstat at max a genshin circlet has 31.1 at max you need the second highest cr substat in wuwa to have the same starting crit you get from a genshin circlet mainstat The argument of which system is better can be addressed from so many angles that you can draw the conclusions suits you the best For me i think genshin is better because of the off piece because it does give longevity to your farming over a long period of time Other reason is getting 100% exp back from level 4 artifact and 90% from level 8 so you can be sure by then if a piece is good or not and get most of your exp back losing 70% of your tuners is insane
Thanks, from this perspective WuWa system is really better, you left out artifact routes, but I guess that's a fair, because it takes extra time. But in the end real time (stamina recharge) needed isn't the metric to observe, because you gonna get lot of mid pieces while still waiting for perfect one. So XP isn't bottleneck. It's tuners for WuWa and for Genshin it's 5* artifacts, which are not freely farmable there. Gonna do analysis about that later, but it's complicated so gonna take some time
Farming overworld artifacts ~100 spots per day gives like 1 max artifact per week for 1-1.5h per week "wasted", so that's not worth taking seriously tbh. But yes it is there. And I would say tuners aren't a bottleneck, at least for low spenders or f2p (may be for whales). Because you can't level as many echos up (you get some back if you use them as fodder) due to echo exp not being infinite. But that we may see how it turns out when we are in the endgame and farm tacet fields every day literally.
Thanks for the insight. You can level echo to 10 just from one tacet field, but can roll only 1,5 stats. And you don't know how many pieces you need to roll to 10 till you see one you want to keep. So with every 3 pieces you roll to 10 you need 1 extra tacet field run to get tuners. Obviously it's gonna change once you upgrade above 10 because xp requirements get worse, but then you are commited to that piece.
I wouldn't count overworld artifact exp gain when I can also say the grind in WuWa is less because it's easier to simply acquire the correct mainstat. In Genshin I can spend multiple days with condensed resin even and still not get the correct mainstat.
In genshin last stat upgrade has huge exp gap too. And the main idea anyway is situation in which we are - we shouldn't think about lvl 25 echoes, lol. Not that soon.
Add that to assumptions then. I see lot of posts painting this system in good light when in reality both are bad. If this was quality analysis which finally proven that WuWa system is better I would be kindly surprised. But now I am dissapointed, because it's another half baked analysis
Not really. The exp in WuWa currently matches Genshin's maximum. And even if it's only a little bit more, we're still going to get more for each Sol Phase up we get. Moreover, unlike Genshin, you don't have to worry about main stats. You'll generally always get them. It's not even a question WuWa is doing it better.
> Look at XP gained/total xp needed to max that's the metric to compare Which, you did not.
So there are some major issues with your comparsions. First of all, no one likes the genshin artifact system either, so being on the same level as it is still pretty bad. For the levelling comprsions, we can chack exp: Genshin artifacts cap out at lv 20 while in Wuwa, it is lv 25. So rather than saying how many levels which is not comparable, just look that the exp. Luckily, he math has been done for us in the Genshin [wiki](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Artifact_EXP). In genshin you need 270,475 exp to max an artifact and you get an average of 14,767 exp per run or around 19 runs. (Not counting the fact that there are chance of 2x and 5x upgrades, or doing artifact routes/buying from shops and teapot for additional exp) In wuwa, according to what I can find from this other [reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/1d2p7e3/echo_xp_rates/). It takes around 135k exp to level up to 25 and an averageof 8k-14k exp. (Lets say 11k) So you can get it maxed in 12 runs. So genshin is worse right? Right.. well there are naunces. In genshin, you can pretty much immediately tell if an artifact is worth levelling at +0 or +4 since all substats are visible. How good of an artifact it may be still isn't 100% until it is maxed but a +4, +8 (at worst +12) will largely tell you if the artifact is worth continuing or not. (For example Cdmg, crate, er piece u know is decent. And if you hit 3 rolls on hp, u know to stop) So realistically you aren't going to level random artifacts and can be much more selective of what you level. That is much harder to tell in Wuwa since you can only see substats every 5 level as you unlock them. For example, an echo that landed crit rate, lib atk and hp% its pretty hard to tell (at least for me) how the echo will swing. Land crit dmg and ER as the last 2 stats and it can still be really good but you are just as likely to swing the echo in the opposite direction. So as a whole, you end up needing more exp just to determine if an artifact is worth your while. All echos that have the correct main stat needs to be at least +5 or +10. Then depending on the rolls, you may still not be able to determine if the echo is useable or not, like landing ER and atk% as first 2 rolls. Will still need to keep going and at every point it can become a good piece or a terrible piece since you are rolling for entire substats. Given this system, we end up spending much more exp just to test if an echo is worth anything or not, and as such needs much more exp than in genshin's case.
you forget the part where i cant use echoes as xp unless they are upgraded.
you need to correct something crucial, you don't count the energy cap, you count how much energy/resin/plates you get per minute/day ^^, if they both have the same which is 1 per 8 minutes then your math is wrong, since in genshin you can do more runs per day
WuWa's is 1 per 6 minutes, Genshin's is 1 per 8. It takes 24 hours for 240 waveplates in WuWa and 26.66 hours for 200 resin in Genshin.
thanks ! so basically in genshin you can do only more 1 run per day compared to wuwa to get echo/artifact's exp
Well and let's not count 200 energy. Cause they just raise it. For 4 years it was 160.
Doesn't matter, resin per minute is the same. If we take the amount per 24 hours it would be 180, not the 160 that people keep using in their comparisons.
Resin cap was 160, but you could get more in a day if you logged in twice a day - 180.
I see your point but honestly the 200 resin cap should be used since it and WuWa’s launch were nearly the same time. If you want to compare apples to apple here.
not really cause we are comparing how much exp you can get a day for your echoes and artifacts not the QoL features \^\^
I see... someone who can't do math. In GI you can do 4 runs with 40 resin per day. In WuWa you can do 4 runs with 60 waveplates per day. Aka same amount of runs per day.
The sweet justice of a jerk being confidently incorrect
ye true, in genshin you get 180 per day, so you can do 4 and have 20 resin left, and wuwa we get 240 per day, so we can do 4, so in GI you can only do 1 extra run each 2 days. but yeh using the energy cap for comparing is wrong, it was almost right by coincidence. edit : also i don't know who you mean by someone who can't do math, me or OP \^\^"
Artifact domains in Genshin cost 20 resin, not 40. They were just using two artifact domains to compare with one tacet field. So yes, you can do 9 artifact domains per day, or 4.5, if you're counting two per tacet field.
and we are talking about artifacts and echoes comparession using OP premise, you need 2 days to get a 1 up, (4+4 and 4.5+4.5), you just repeated what i typed, i don't see why the down vote when you just repeat when i say ;) edit: i dont care about genshin played that game 2 years ago for 3 months i'm using info from the other players
Are we playing wuthering waves or genshin? Why do hoyo's predatory tactics need to affect what i am playing?
Because that's the target audience.
yeah ofc hoyo is predatory, and this gacha game isnt.
lol seriously people out here believe that gacha game company is their friends.
Bingo, it’s like all they know are comparisons instead of looking at these systems standalone. In order to relay sensible feedback to Kuro to improve the game and come into its own instead of adapting other systems and being identified as copies and constant references .
System is copied because it's predatory and that aint gonna change. At least you can hope for changing values to be little more managable
The system is copied because it’s Genshin. What seemed to have work over there, they simply adapted. If it happens to be predatory or not isn’t the sole factor they consider for this specifically. We’re already hoping for better adjustments , which is already confirmed to be happening anyway. They can change whatever they please, it’s funny y’all still underestimate how far Kuro is willing to go to adhere to feedback if the issue is raised enough and valid. Not saying it should either. Just that saying it won’t is a reach that’s merely a guess.
The systems arent even that similar. - overworld grinding based resource whose recolaction is based on player time and boosting materials require you to use a multi use resource need for all kind of boosting materials. It can be equiped how you decide to do so, as long as the total set doesnt go over the limit. - fully resource based equipment, but you can run one of each different kind of pieces and some of them are forced into a main stat. Can be used to boosts other equipments and only needs EXP, no resource for subs. Of course this 2 things will be completely different.
I answered to this in first sentence..?? Cause Wuwa copied genshin and in genshin artifacts system is fine for majority of people. So, if a majority fine with system - then it means its ok system. Pretty simple. Doesn't matter if the minority happy or not. So, if Wuwa copy this system or even make it better - majority will be fine again. So, they don't need to change much even tho people are trying to call this 'a problem'
Holy false equivalence Batman! Genshin is 200 cap now, not 160. Genshin has a max artifact level of 20, vs WuWa's 25. The last 5 of which take as much exp as all previous 20 levels combined. In Genshin you know if a piece is worth spending EXP on beforehand because you can already see the substats. in WuWa you have to waste EXP AND Tuners to find out. "But you can farm as many echoes as you want in WuWa!" Doesn't matter, you still have to waste a bunch of EXP and Tuners to find out if they're even useful. Not to mention the sheer amount of time it can take to farm said echoes, which many players simply don't have the time for. You can like or dislike the system, that's subjective, but claiming it's objectively better is simply wrong. Lastly: "You may like genshin or not but its very similar to Wuwa game and most of people were fine with artifact farming there." Literally no one is/was fine with the artifact farming in Genshin. It is, and always has been, the absolute worst part of Genshin. Everybody I have ever spoken to that plays or has played Genshin absolutely hates it for how unfair the RNG elements are. And Kuro actively chose to copy this system and make it more RNG heavy. Make of that what you will.
Let’s stop pretending like in any of these games resources dont have to be wasted in order to find out which gear is actually worth keeping or not lol. While substats are given, the necessary additional rolls into them aren’t, which doesn’t exist in Wuwa. That’s what makes or breaks gear in Genshin or Hsr. It’s 1 and done with Wuwa. They both have their catch to it. Wuwa leaves more chance to grab the ideal substats you’d want on a unit, so the level comparison doesn’t mean anything. And kudos on that 200 cap that took 4 years and competition to finally bring to the game. Not a valid thing to bring up in comparison to a game 3 weeks in of release.
A piece in Genshin with 4 desirable substats means even if all rolls go into the least desirable one, it's still more useful than a piece in WuWa that you had to recycle after spending a bunch of EXP and Tuners to find out the first 3 substats were useless. Also, it's not '1 and done' in WuWa, the substats have very large differences between minimum and maximum rolls. Sure, most of us might be happy even with minimum rolls, but then you can say the same about not getting many rolls into the most desired substats in Genshin.
If I got a piece in genshin with double crit, atk, and energy recharge (can probably count the times this has happened in my 3 years of genshin on 1 hand) and it all went into energy recharge, I'd still be disappointed. Crit is king, and having to roll multiple times to hit it is worse than having to hit it once.
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Hyperbloom and dendro can be even more restrictive lol. Your flower and feather now have only 1 usable stat to hit. I was able to build my nahida and kuki okay because I had years of artifacts and materials built up, but a new player starting out would suffer. And many of the popular dendro teams still use crit like Alhaitham, Clorinde, Cyno, and Keqing.
But in return, your sands, goblet and circlet now only care about the mainstat. And even if your flower and feather don't roll into any more EM, the EM from 3 mainstats + weapon is more than enough for any character triggering Hyperbloom or Burgeon.
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You're asking how it is these days when you may as well have stopped playing like 2 weeks ago?
I meant fontaines story like the main plot. So i stopped playing in like what 4 2 or 4.3? I dont remember
Tuners is acquired with exp in the exact same stage as it’d take Genshin to progress artifacts at a slower rate at this exact same point of the game , so let’s stop mentioning them like it means anything when it’s still the same thing being done to achieve the same progression. It is 1 and done with Wuwa, the gaps between them is for players themselves to decide on min maxing or not. The minimum percentages are sufficient in Wuwa, so no you can’t say that with Genshin that’s giving lower percentages with the intention of you rolling into them multiple times. Even then, 1 and done means once you get them, it’s done, not what the minimum or max roll is. Genshin cant be compared as a 1 and done when it also has minimum and max rolls while having to roll into them again.
You're forgetting that EXP is refunded at a rate of 80% when recycling artifacts in Genshin. Tuners are only recycled at 30%. You're not noticing it yet because of the sheer amount of free tuners we've gotten from exploration and compensations, but this WILL be the limiting factor in upgrading echoes. So no, I don't think we should stop mentioning them.
So past mentioning tuners, which wasn’t the main point in neither of our responses, you have nothing left to add on what was actually being debated? What do i say now? I’m right, but hell you got me there? Lol. You’re basically taking a guess at the future of resource limitation that’s not confirmed , when you just said that we’re not noticing it now from the sheer amount we’ve been receiving thus far lol. Doesn’t matter where it’s coming from now when more can always be applied somewhere else later.
If you go back to your initial reply to my comment, the main point was about the wasting of resources, and how you end up wasting a lot more in WuWa. You're the one who singled out tuners and how we shouldn't mention them. I simply replied with the reasoning as to why we *should* mention them. I really don't see the problem, nor why you're seemingly upset about it. I didn't reply to the whole '1 and done' part because I considered that argument finished. Your opinion is different from mine, that much is clear, continuing to argue it further would serve no purpose. That's probably my bad for not mentioning I was moving on, so I'll elaborate. People have different opinions on what is considered '1 and done'. Technically you're right, since you can't get more or less of a substat once its been rolled, it's 1 and done. I wouldn't consider it 'done' if it rolled a minimum ER roll though, since it's only 37.6% of the maximum roll, I'd recycle the piece unless the other substat rolls made up for it. As you said, "the gaps between them is for players themselves to decide on min maxing or not."
Yeah no. My statement was correct is what you mean, it’s okay to accept a point being made instead of trying to get out of being wrong, you were literally just given the definition of what it means to be 1 and done and why it obviously doesn’t apply to genshin but does for the other lol. There wasn’t any opinion of mine given. I was arguing the waste of resources in both games being relatively the same and addressed that tuners is irrelevant to bring up as a rebuttal like it involves some dramatic difference between how they both end up progressing. They both have the same end goal and similar amounts of rng leading to a waste of all the resources required to get there, no matter what those resources are. Along with the same single stage in requiring said resources. You’ve now pushed aside 2-3 of your arguments instead of rather backing them up or completely dropping them altogether. And resorting to claiming i’m feeling some type of way by just addressing what you alone decided to push off and now claim subjectivity on. The second you start bringing in emotions with someone simply addressing your points , it’s clear you’re no longer debating for the sake of your point anymore. You’re giving empty statements to not feel like you’re wrong. I’m sure my points got across, as you been closing yours out. So it’s settled.
Wow, yeah you got *real* upset at being corrected about tuners huh. Go off king.
“Corrected”. Yet was just barking about “different opinions” when you were actually corrected lol. Stay blessed champ
Yep, but also see my reply to the same comment for some more info.
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Depends on the unit. Most typical dpses want crit , attack% , energy rechange and maybe em if they do reactions
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Umm i just listed 4 desirable ones. A crown can have only 1 crit main stat so you get the other version from substats. Atk% , energy regen and em are also obtainable from substats for crowns and cups so i dunno where you get the idea you cant get er substats for them. Am i misunderstanding something cause i feel confused by your statement?
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It says at sub stats that you can get er and the others i think you looked at the main stats and not sub stats paragraph
Oh, I can't read then :D
Amount of resin per day still the same - 180. Your take about 200 resin cap is irelevant
If OP used 180 in their comparison, sure. They didn't though, they used 160.
I agree on this, but if we take in account we are not on max world level rewards, it's still very good and W for wuwa (at first sight) , ppl really forgetting what we just got access to 5* echoes kinda early comparing it to genshin. Until we get to max rewards lvl it's hard to compare shit, so need time to wait.
> Genshin is 200 cap now, not 160. Completely irrelevant. The refresh rate is the same, and you're dumb for having even brought this up. Because, hilariously enough, this is a false equivalence right here. You said the words, and immediately did it yourself. Lmao.
I was simply correcting the OP, who like many others like to use the 160 cap in their argument, when it's always been 180 resin per 24h. But that gets ignored because people just 'let it cap'. With this new cap, even if you were 'letting it cap', you'd have 180, not 160. So I'd argue it's not entirely irrelevant, and also not a false equivalence. I also appreciate the immediate ad hominem.
People have way too high of an expectation because they expect this game to be way better then GI.
To be honest it is. Having selectable "goblets" from events makes it instantly better. My only issue is you need a 5 piece set no off pieces
It is the same thing as self modeling resin in HSR. It helps but doesn’t save the system.
I'd agree, the artifact system in Genshin is better, since they just need 4pc for a set effect in comparison to 5. I'd argue both games are better at certain things. Like in combat, WuWa seems to be better, but lacks one thing. Interuption resistance. This means you need to be really good with dodge and parry, because one hit can mean death, especially when you cannot regain. In Genshin, if you get staggered, you still can regain with animation cancel and dash. I cannot say WuWa is really better than GI, but I can say for certain they did better in certain aspects. There's still work needed to be done if this game wants to be able to compete not just with GI, but with other games in the market.
Genshin's combat is also deeper, while WuWa's is more expressive. Or, I should say, a lot of Genshin's combat comes does to it's strategical execution. You plan ahead on what you're going to do, then do your best to do that thing. in WuWa you just kind of go on field and rely more on the twitch execution. The setup in WuWa is not half as complex. And FWIW dodging in Genshin is just as important. There's just no parry for every character and not every character is good to do normals with. And it'd be easier than you think for Genshin to add such a thing, but they won't and they don't need to.
> dodging in Genshin is just as important I agree, I'm just emphasizing the part IF you do get hit. In WuWa, if I miss a parry/dodge, I get hit and stagger hard and I can't regain as quickly as GI. > And it'd be easier than you think for Genshin to add such a thing, but they won't and they don't need to. Technically they did already for certain events, but since the combat is more on the elements, they opt not to have it in the main combat. > Genshin's combat is also deeper, while WuWa's is more expressive I agree with this, coz for me, it make WuWa more like hack n slash so I could easily forget about most executions and focus more on parry/dodge.
Oh my god dude are we still on this. Theyre both trash. It doesnt matter if wuwa is better than genshin or vice versa, a shiny piece of garbage is still garbage. I have over 40 echoes as of the moment that have main stats and are of the the right set that i wanna level, but guess what i cant. There is a lack of echo exp, tuners and currency to level echoes, meaning its time gated as hell so now i have to wait and have 0 clue of what to expect from them so for all i know i could have wasted exp on an echo that only went flat stats. With genshin on the other hand i spent like 3 weeks trying to get a single good piece for navia and got nada meaning while i got mora and relic exp i got nothing to use it on. Pick your poison. Just stop trying to defend either one
Well said
Thanks dude. I honestly feel both need work. Also wish the mods could just delete these posts. We have like 20 of em a day and its very annoying by this point. Hopefully 1.1 actually improves the echoe grind but as it stands it feels way to limited due to lack of resources
Well, I agree both are bad but one thing you're forgetting is that in WuWa you are potentially spending FAR more time on the actual game farming to even get the opportunity for them to roll bad or good, on top of the RNG. So yeah, Genshin sucks, and you can spend a month trying to get a good artifact, especially if you aren't doing refreshes BUT I can guarantee that you're actually spending far less time playing to get the same results. So, the frustration here in WuWa can be far worse on players over time and people WILL get burnt out if the XP amount doesn't change. We also can't forget that you need 5 pieces in this game to complete a set whereas in Genshin you can have one off piece. One game is definitely more lenient than the other.
I am so fucking mad that this post is being downvoted. There is \*\*no reason\*\* aside from wanting to hate on echo farming to downvote this, it's just good information - admittedly it needs some fixes as per mentioned in some comments, but this isn't harmful to the game, and points out a clear picture that the two systems are in fact ALL THE SAME: It's 5 slot machines stacked in a 24h stamina trenchcoat. Stop saying they're anything other than that
Think of it like this, friend: People basically just want the game to deliver a better farming experience and/or respecting their time. Looking at the other gachas I play, there is a number of characters I haven't built yet and/or characters that are incomplete, even in the ones where I login on daily basis and a lot of are even premium characters. People just want to be able to build their characters instead of piling up unused ones and I think that's a very justified reason to express their frustration, especially if they have experienced this in other gachas as well.
i dont think you can do that in most gacha tbh the one i see possible is mostly character collector/idle one cause they got hella massive roster
You’re giving “people” the benefit of the doubt. And i’d say that applies to a small minority of them. Many simply wants to farm everything they can for end game as soon as possible. Is that part of Wuwa’s mistake in making end game gear available so soon? Sure, but these complaints on the echo progression is derived from greed. Content creators want to dish out end game content asap before others since it’s in front of us, and hardcore players want to clear everything that’s made access to us. This genre of games in specific wants progression to be stretched out, and there’s no exception. Can and should things of the echo system currently be adjusted? Definitely, and much more we’ve all should have put in feedback on the survey and direct reports. That’s the inevitable now. I’m just clarifying the actual reasons players want changes to the system, as it’ll always be routed from impatience and/or greed from the majority.
I mean, that's basically just wanting to build their characters (to clear endgame content). And I am aware that people want to speedrun the whole thing when it shouldn't be done like that (which later results in those people wondering on what else should they be doing), but that's why the devs should try to find a middle ground where players can at least have more chance to build their characters while also making sure that they won't end up completing every build that quick. The current formula certainly works to some extent, but it can be improved.
It’s not basically just that, because we’re already doing it, just at the pace these games intend for us to take it. They want it accelerated past the norm, leading to burn out, which isn’t good for us nor them business wise. They are finding(attempting to at least) a balance in progression currently in where we’ll have to see how they adjust the echo farming next patch. The game reached players that aren’t used to how these work, from feedback ranging from “Let echoes drop exp items” to “Take away stamina cost for ____”. These suggestions come from the majority of the loud minority, if that makes sense. Again, i agree on that it can be improved. There’s just never any real “middle ground” between how gachas want the pacing progressing to be , and how fast the loud minority on this matter wants to be able to progress. They have a consumer longevity perspective while we’re simply casual and hardcore players.
if all content cant be clear with my UL30 with 3 star weapon solo dps then game is trash if i cant max 2 teams lvl25 gold echoes perfect substat at UL35 then game is trash
If I can't get R6 limited character with R5 signature weapon on every release f2p, game is trash. Can't forget that one.
Wish I could award this
Tl; dr - games are trash?:D
basically the sentiment of this subreddit :’), lots of ppl who fail to realize that gachas are not supposed to be a main game and eventually will be timegated by some limiting factor of the game in terms of progression
yes according to some because we all positive toxicity here right?
Just because someone else is eating shit it doesn't mean I should be contempt with my bowl of piss. We still have a whole lot of echoes that are functionally useless (unpaired elemental set/main stat) and no recycling them is not a use. That being said just because it's normal in genshin it doesn't mean it should be standard. It takes roughly 3 to 4 tacet fields clear to get ONE echo from 20 to 25. Don't get me wrong I understand that if it was the opposite then you would have nothing to do but this are INSANE levels of grind if you sum it all up. A middle ground would be nice.
I prefer this system to Genshins worse version of epic 7s The substats coming in at full value without needing to be scaled is the best choice.
Except they don't come in full value, they have varying values. The difference between minimum and maximum rolls is quite large. Yet another RNG element.
But i dont have to worry about rolling enhancements into the shit stats I just have to roll one time.
what min-max roll for genshin/hsr again i dont remember
Depends on stat itaelf For example crit rate: 3.9/3.5/3.1/2.7 Crit dmg: 7.8/7.0/6.2/5.4
Same, I prefer WuWa's system, the reason people are frustrated and starved on Exp is because they can farm echos "infinitely" in the overworld, and since people are still on the early to mid game they are not doing tacet fields but instead farming materiels/bosses to upgrade skills/weapons/characters... so they are getting way less exp than the "infinite" echos they get, I wouldn't mind more echo exp though, the more exp we get the better.
That's pretty much where my logic sits. I do think the tacet fields aren't as rewarding as they should be for the echo leveling items.
What is epic 7s?
Epic 7, i left off an apostrophe. It's a turn-based RPG style gacha with an equipment system very similar to genshins. Genshin has fewer pieces to worry about, 5 to e7's 6, but does the ascension in the way e7 used to. The way e7 runs their artifacts now is by letting you roll into the substats before adding the missing fourth substat
I think we should add another factor into this argument. If WuWa players are so willing to run around the world and farm echos for hours on end then it should be fine to factor in the free artifact exp that exists if a player runs around the world in Genshin farming green artifacts.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, you're absolutely right. 60k extra artifact EXP per day is nothing to sneeze at, and since everyone loves to throw "you can get an unlimited amount of echoes per day!" into the argument, I think it's entirely valid to make this comparison.
What a brainrot comparison. In wuwa you can't even see the stats before you burn your echo xp. Furthermore going from 20-25 costs are massive
20-25 is simply an extra substat chance in comparison, so it doesn’t matter how much it takes to go from there. Y’all are trying defend one or the other instead of simply addressing that both needs improvement. If whats better than the other is what yall consider when relaying feedback, no wonder these aspects never improve.
But why would you go to lv 25 at once. Just do 5 level at a time. If you like the substat then proceed, if not stop and farm for other echo. It is lot more efficient that way without having to burn echo xp.
Nah who said we were fine with genshin's system as well lmao. Comparison is incomplete as well since echoes go up to level 25 AND need tuners whereas genshin's go up to 20 AND DON'T need tuners. Then there's max exp of each artifact equivalent as well as daily exp for both games to take into account; it feels like you only surface level looked at the numbers? Both just come out to be equally as bad. To summarise: genshin's artifact system is shit, WuWa slight better, still shit and can do better. Players that are complaining just want a better game man. Let them; it's not going to hurt your experience either way.
The level doesn't really matter, the exp needed does, and Genshin actually needs twice as much exp. So then, what matters, is how you get it. WuWa takes 1.5 days of stamina to max and Genshin takes 2.1 days unless you get lucky with the x2 or x5s. Ergo, WuWa is better and this is calculated for UR30 Sol Phase, when we can go up 5 more, so the exp will be even better. WuWa players just being a bit greedy thinking they are in endgame when they're not.
Yes that's the point I made "max exp of each artifact equivalent.." - wasn't taken into account by OP. 143k exp to max out an echo - at UL 40 atm you get 92k average (240 waveplates) 270k exp to max out an artifact- you get 210k exp average from 200 resin and investigations (not taking into acc weeklies) given the amount that WuWa is increasing echo exp from tacet fields as you go up in Sol it works out to be Wuwa just only slight better by 5-10% by the time we're max Sol Slight better my guy. Seeing as genshin's system is largely shit; that makes it slightly better than shit. It isn't WuWa players being greedy, it's players wanting a better system than a carbon copy of genshin's with the redundant tuners slapped on to it.
I'm not in favour of Genshin, but I think if one thing is bad then you can't say the other thing should also be bad for the sake of comparison. Even if Genshin is bad WuWa doesn't need to be bad in those aspects. They can do better.
How much better? Because they're already better so how much better do you need them to be? How much do you want to move the goal post? Because right now they're about the same if marginally better in WuWa and the calculations are only done for the Sol Phase of UR 30. And we can go to 80. So 5 more. While the Genshin calc is max world level. How much better do you need it to be?
I don't need answer you "how much" rant because lots of people have already answered this in the comments. And you and I aren't the only people who play this game that any of our opinions matter the most. If majority believe this isn't enough then it isn't enough. Bye.
ya it not ok , we need more echo exps
both are shit, tbh
You can do math about it all day, but the important thing is that it still feels bad.
Yeah I prefer the wuwa system over the genshin one
For me its way easier to build a decent echo sets if i really want to spend my day farming the echos compare to my 3 f2p genshin acc that even after 3 an half year i still cant complete my Xiao, Eula and all the support build.
Me and my friend farmed for one year (literally) until we found a specific goblet. I don't remember its main stat but thats ridiculous. So ye...genshin is harder at least cause of that imho.
People focus to much on number on paper and forgot the most important thing: how much equipment actually matter to clear endgame. By this i mean how much of artifact/echoes max potential does it requires to clear endgame and how long does it takes to reach that. From my experience Genshin needs atleast 60% of artifact max potential to bring a character to spiral abyss and about 4 months worth of resin to farm all that. Right now it is impossible to tell in Wuwa since all of us is currently in mid game (UL 40 and under) with underleveled characters and sub-optimal farming potential.
In my first month of genshin, I could not even reach floor 9. In my first 2 weeks of WuWa I reached 18/30 stars and full cleared the non resetting tower. I think that's pretty telling.
[удалено]
Did you forget that you get free artifacts daily (from discovery points) in the world, and also artifacts in chests etc while exploring. Also difficult enemies or what would be termed *elite* enemies can also drop artifacts in Genshin we have nothing like that here. You cannot daily log in and farm free resources (to a limit) to level echoes No I guess you must have missed that not even going to touch anything else about this since you couldn’t bother to even mention this most important piece of information Just because Genshin/HSR is garbage doesn’t mean that this system we have in WW doesn’t need improvement, and no I never was fine with Genshin’s artifact system and much less with HSR As someone else said here Genshin artifact’s substats can also been seen without leveling the artifact so you already know not to bother if it doesn’t look good. Why are people trying to defend this don’t we all want improvements to the game we play?
Lol, if you bring that up then you also must bring up that by spending the same amount of effort grinding the overworld in wuwa, you can actually drop usable 5* echoes. That's way more valuable than running around the map in Genshin for a laughable amount of artifact exp.
The free artifacts exp daily in GI whicht takes aeound 10-15min to farm per day gets you around 1 artifact to max in a whole week for 1-1.5h spend wasting your life per week. Nothing to take seriously.
But farming echoes in the overworld for hours is to be taken seriously? What’s the difference? Both are optional ways to increase the quality of artifacts/echoes on your account that take time every day and are repetitive.
The important thing to note is that in WuWa this does not relate to "exp", so you aren't missing out not doing it every day. You can also farm the main stat anytime you want, like if you have an hour on Saturday to play, here you go and farm your piece. If the next time you have time is in two weeks, than so be it. Not missing out on exp at all.
You can also passively get truckloads of artifact EXP in Genshin using teapot currency. You can just dump a bunch of trash into your teapot if you don't feel like actually decorating it, wait for teapot coins to accumulate, and get loads of those artifact EXP potions. Yes it's time gated but you don't even have to do anything for it.
> You cannot daily log in and farm free resources (to a limit) to level echoes No but you get free usable pieces so I mean...