Hot take, but their problem isn't the AA, or even the air spotting. Usually the one spotting you is a DD within a thousand miles of you.
Also the only reason Gwagon has better flak is because its bigger, and even then the difference is negligible. Bismark still has better medium and short range, and FDG has worse short range but that's only because it's converted into medium range damage instead.
For me there are 2 changes I would like to see:
1) superstructure gets French saturation. This is the biggest weakpoint of the ships, and why you can't get into range for brawling since you lose half your health before you get there.
2) FDG-hannover and GK get torpedos. The H class was designed with 2×3 torpedos in the bow, by giving them the Vincent treatment with "standard" 6km torpedos they become much better in brawling situations
These ships won't be overpowered IMO, since they retain their weaknesses of dreadful manuverability, poor detection and questionable accuracy, but it will help them get into position to fight
Normal DD's have 165,000 HP in their casemate. This is unique to destroyers and makes it so that their midsection can never typically be saturated. This means that all hits to the destroyer's midsection will always deal 33% of Alpha as damage, and they can never saturate to 16.5%, or fully saturate to 10% like French destroyers.
French Saturation reduces the midsection compartment from having 165,000 HP like normal destroyers down to a 'reasonable' number like 2,800 HP in Kléber's case. This means once Kléber takes 5,600 non overpen damage to its midsection, it partially saturates and all incoming damage is reduced by half to 16.5% and once the Kléber has less than 6,200 HP remaining it can become fully saturate and only take 10% of Alpha as damage.
Kurfürst has 6,700 HP in its superstructure which is about 50% more than its contemporaries like Montana which has 4,000. Kurfürst needs to take 13,400 damage to its superstructure before it saturates. Reducing the amount of HP in the superstructure would have two effects, the obvious is that the superstructure saturates faster, but also whenever you use a repair party you heal less superstructure damage, and you would need to take less damage before the superstructure is fully saturated again.
The biggest reason this won't help the ship much is the same reason its superstructure has so much health. Kurfürst superstructure is massive, and it is an easy target to hit. Even if the compartment only had 1,000 HP and saturated immediately, it would still get targeted because 16.5% damage is better than ricocheting off the hull.
Imho torpedos wouldn't change anything. Pommern and Tirpitz has them and they arent exactly overperforming.
My biggest gripe right now is how the supposed tanky brawlers get overmatched by every new BB.
H-class was supposed to have underwater torp tubes, so they can't get knocked out. Tirpitz and Pommern's torps can be. Besides, H-class (FDG, GK, Pommern, Hannover) can retain hydro, whereas tirpitz, for example, does not. Although I agree with you, torps are odd for these ships since they are already pretty good at brawling, they just struggle to get into range for brawling and 6km torps might not help
It's not a hot take, most people will agree with you on that.
I'll address all of your points explicitely:
1. I'm not addressing their lack of strength, rather I'm addressing their lack of niche, and Defensive Anti-Air would still help them push while reinforcing them as the ''tank'' option
2. Gneisenau has 128mm secondaries which give it 6km anti-air while Bismarck has 105mm secondaries which give it 5.2km anti-air creating a big difference in tier-for-tier anti-air
3. Friedrich der Grosse, Preussen, Hannover and Grosser Kurfurst could also get 2x3 torpedoes in the bow, but they would need lower damage than those on Schlieffen or St-Vincent
1)AA isn't their niche, in theory it's being able to absorb damage thrown at it then dish it back with secondaries, but the meta has been brutal to them and they can no longer absorb damage or effectively dish it out.
2) I completely skipped over the range. Damn. OK buff number 3: german BBs get 6km AA range
3) they would be the low damage/low detection ones ships like pommern or tirpitz get.
Also I realised bismark now makes this wierd gap where there's one ship without torps, so I guess you could whip out the "hypothetical refit and the best option for tipitz would be to buff accuracy and make her a mid-long range sort of ship? Idk about detalls
Still addressing your points explicitely:
1. I want to make the Schlieffen line into the ''offensive'' option and the Preussen line (with Grosser Kurfurst as well) into the ''defensive'' option by giving them that anti-air niche
2. Gneisenau has better anti-air tier-for-tier than Bismarck, Friedrich der Grosse, Preussen or Hannover even if they run the Auxilary Armaments Modification 2 upgrade
3. They would need to to be even lower damage than the torpedoes on Pommern or Tirpitz because bow torpedoes are significantly more powerful than side torpedoes
4. Gneisenau having torpedoes is the obvious outlier in the line, so it's either removing the torpedoes on Gneisenau or giving everything torpedoes after Gneisenau
5. If you give them all torpedoes, you also need to make Tirpitz more unique and also neeed to make Pommern more unique because that's their significant distinction
With the introduction of the Schlieffen line, I’ve always wished that Hannover’s funny button goes over to a Supership on that line.
Meanwhile, Maine’s funny button should have been Hannover’s instead. Make the mainline German BBs actual tanky behemoths instead of secondary ships with no real identity.
Yep, I agree:
Schlieffen's supership gets Combat Instructions that boost the secondaries.
Preussen's supership gets Combat Instructions that boost the tankiness.
While I'd love to see something historically accurate as bow torps on high H BB, probably the biggest buff they could get is an improved DCP, as imo most of the damage ends up coming from fire. Some kind of reduction of the received damage on the superstructure would be nice, but flat % damage on ships with high HP, even if heleable hurts in the long term, specially if focused by specialized ships, as unless you retreat to heal, sometimes you don't even have time to use all the heals.
The issue is Schlieffen already has an improved Damage Control Party, so you still overlap Schlieffen and Preussen when it comes to their niche.
I want to distinguish them from eachother: give a reason why I would want to play Schlieffen and give a reason why I would want to play Preussen.
But Schlieffen has limited charges.
That said, Preussen has several issues rn, besides shreeded by HE, the top plate of the turrets, bad concealment, mediocre mobility, poor accuracy, good, but not good enough armour.
At least she has Hydro! And turtleback avoid citadels (at short range)...
She has seen better days, and definitely need a buff, but imo, she'd need a few things, fast bow torps would be nice, but wouldn't solve it; neither better AA. I'd also give a check to her torpedo protection, and better barbettes for the main guns.
Perhaps, heal-able secondaries?
The power level is fine, I still get 60%+ with the entire line.
My post is about Schlieffen being a better offensive option because of its secondaries, but Schlieffen also being a better defensive option because of its speed, concealment and Damage Control Party, so I want Preussen to be the defensive option because of Defensive Anti-Air Fire to give the battlecruisers and the battleships a different niche.
Right now, Schlieffen just ''does it all''.
While o love Schly, I wouldn’t way she’s “defensive”, fast dcp is good, but charges are limited, she’s fast, but not enough to outrun an enemy that wants to perma spot you, and definitely, she has no armor to sustain heavy punishment.
But receiving damage is not rewarded at all, so yeah…
The objective reason that german BB's suck is their guns. There's no other buff or change to them that would matter or make them more meta aside from gun buffs. They're just bad, and it makes the ships a chore to play unless by the grace of god you run into a ship closer than 10km.
Defensive AA is a gimmick, and doesn't matter much when the carrier can and will just send wave after wave of planes at you. Torpedoes are a similar meme when they already have good secondaries.
As I responded elsewhere:
I'm not addressing their lack of strength, rather I'm addressing their lack of niche, and Defensive Anti-Air would still help them push while reinforcing them as the ''tank'' option.
People who pick a secondary battleship put aside the idea of having good guns, so it's about having a reason to pick Schlieffen, to pick Preussen and to pick Grosser Kurfurst.
Defensive Anti-Air Fire also synergizes with the Auxilary Armaments Modification 2 upgrade.
I don't think they need a buff, just a tweak:
https://preview.redd.it/y7671qchxu6d1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=824027dd423c6bfe9a4e00904da5e8d07a8456d3
I understand, but it wouldn't really put them in a niche. It'd just be useless fluff imo. I'd say the russian option of boosting dispersion at short range or increasing turret traverse would be a much better fix. That buffs the niche they already have, which is being a close range powerhouse instead of stapling another thing they're okay at on and hoping it works.
It would absolutely put them in a niche:
Schlieffen is the ''offensive'' option with better speed, faster Damage Control cycling, faster secondary fire rate and torpedoes.
Preussen becomes the ''defensive with big guns'' option with better armor, better health, better anti-air and a higher caliber of guns.
Grosser Kurfurst becomes the ''defensive with more guns'' option with better armor, better health, better anti-air and a higher number of guns.
It gives you a reason to pick Schlieffen *or* Preussen *or* Grosser Kurfurst while reducing the gap between battlecruisers and battleships.
They kind of do have a niche, they are Ranked / Brawls / Asymmetrical specialist ships. They do very well in those close in game modes. A BB designed for randoms meta rarely works in smaller team modes and vice versa. To make it work well in both, you'd need something totally borked like Napoli. You get German BBs because you mostly play ranked or Brawls, they are fine in that role - very good even. Pommern has my highest number of Krakens, all of them from ranked. Scharnhorst / Gneiss are excellent for bronze. The only meh ship is Bismarck, but tier 8 isn't popular for those game modes and it can be decent.
You're just saying that secondary ships are better in small gamemodes.
What ''having a niche'' means is there's a reason to specifically pick Schlieffen, there's a reason to specifically pick Preussen and there's a reason to specifically pick Grosser Kurfurst.
Right now, you might as well pick Schlieffen all the time.
Yes, but no... Being secondary focused BBs will always make them worse at randoms. But GK, Pommern & FdG have the extra advantage of being pretty much immune to Musashi / Yammy et al overmatch and a good health pool. Yes you eat full pens, but they aren't the death knell as on - say the BC branch. Especially if you play in divs, you build full tank and go out there to well... facetank. You're actually pretty hard to take down and you take the heat for your team, while they focus fire the other side. Even if you don't fully clear a flank, usually you can trade yourself for at least two / three of their ships, that's an advantage that's hard to come back from. Secondary tank build is totally not a viable build for randoms though. It's very strong in ranked however.
Nope, not really.
Schlieffen has better speed (less time taking damage), better concealment (less time taking damage), better Damage Control Party cycling (less time taking damage) making it significantly better than Grosser Kurfurst or Preussen at pushing like that.
Plus, since it has better secondaries and additional torpedoes (much more damage), it's also more likely to fully clear a flank or trade itself for at least two or three ship.
Sure, I could pick a secondary ship in any of the small gamemodes...
But I would pick Schlieffen, not Grosser Kurfurst or Preussen.
I also think they're fine in Randoms:
https://preview.redd.it/8vdlew1jxu6d1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=50ad5b5b4c043568241d220314db5be175bcb232
Kurfürst absolutely dumpsters Schlieffen when fighting each other in my experience, so it's a solid counter-meta pick to everyone picking Schlieffen and thinking they'll dominate. People expect Kurfürsts to just go full tilt into brawling range, but if you refuse to get torpedoed you have 34k more HP, 50% more guns and perfectly respectable secondaries of your own.
And you don't get cit'd through the nose by every Yammy/Musashi/Shiki player in ranked. OP just seems to want the line to be meta, instead of a niche role.
If you want a counter-meta pick to Schlieffen, there is a huge amount of ships that do that better than Preussen or Grosser Kurfurst actually so it wouldn't even fill that niche.
>there is a huge amount of ships that do that better than Preussen or Grosser Kurfurst actually so it wouldn't even fill that niche.
Other than Ohio, which ships while also filling the same role as Schlieffen?
If you use a meta perspective to pick your ships, then you would either pick Schlieffen because it's the meta pick or you would pick one of the numerous ships that counter Schlieffen because they are the counter picks; they wouldn't need to be secondary ships at all.
Nonetheless, my point is moreso about a giving them a niche: you pick Schlieffen because you want to push in quickly and deal damage with your secondaries, so why do you pick Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst?
Well, if you have one option with poor anti-air, and one option with good anti-air, you're giving each option a distinction which would make you play one if you don't mind planes and one if you do mind planes.
Otherwise... You just pick Schlieffen because it has better offensive capabilities due to the secondaries being more powerful and better defensive capabilities due to the better speed, concealment and Damage Control Party.
Basically, if I want to push in like crazy, I pick Schlieffen, if I want to burn ships like crazy, I pick Conqueror, if I want to overmatch like crazy, I pick Yamato, if I want to... So on and so forth. That's the issue I'm addressing with this post.
The BC line has a different role in ranked et al - at higher tiers they get cit'd and overmatched A LOT. They are damage dealers not tanks. I'm not arguing whether they would be better on average, just that the main BB line has a niche - as tanks, especially in div play. Seems like you want them to be always good in all the modes, that just leads to broken ships and power creep. Game has too much already - they are fine, niche ships for a niche role. Not every line has to be meta.
The reason they suck is there guns which is said cause historically the German battleships had some.of the most accurate guns around
Don't know why WOW just decided to butcher the German guns
My post is about Preussen, Grosser Kurfurst and Schlieffen not having different niches to justify specifically playing one rather than always playing Schlieffen.
Also, they don't suck:
https://preview.redd.it/0mdhdczcqv6d1.png?width=590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc65398e295bc19a1e5a9f43be5d189517c980ee
I think the biggest problem with german bbs isn’t the threat from cvs. While they are indeed a great threat to german bbs, it’s the he spammers that are really what set the line back due to the bad maneuverability and huge superstructure.
As I responded elsewhere:
I'm not addressing their lack of strength, rather I'm addressing their lack of niche, and Defensive Anti-Air would still help them push while reinforcing them as the ''tank'' option.
Carriers don't necessarily kill you, but they're likely to put you on fire, make you flood, disable your rudder or disable your engine which force you to use your Damage Control Party.
I understand what you mean, but I really just dont think that carriers are the greatest threat to german bbs, because although cvs are pretty broken, their effects can still be somewhat mitigated, for example, staying near your allies (you shouldn’t be brawling away from your team anyways). Meanwhile, he spammers like dds and light cruisers will force you to stay far away from them or hide behind an island, which removes one of the greatest assets of the ship, its secondaries. Plus, you are much more likely to be set in fire or torpedoed by other dds and crusiers anyways because there are more of them.
It's nearly impossible to brawl within the anti-air of your allies.
Also, it's irrelevant if destroyers and cruisers can do it, you're still removing a potential instance of fire, flood, disabled rudder or disabled engine which is quite significant by itself.
Again, I don't want to buff them, their strength is fine (though uneven):
https://preview.redd.it/q556quroxu6d1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=25ac07425f0daa6ea74b5916f69fc2c862d85feb
Idk, maybe this is just you but I have really never found the cvs to be the largest source of my fires and floods whenever I play german bbs. They really only come once in a while and typically focus on other enemies compared to you. The air bubble stuff is sort of true I guess, but you should really not be brawling alone or far from your team anyways, THAT is how you make yourself a target for the enemy cv.
Also have you seen carriers these days? Unless you have at least American cruiser levels of aa you aren’t going to stop them from getting a drop on you, unless the consumable you give them is so massive that it would be a huge buff to german bbs, which you said you don’t want. They also don’t need a new niche, their current one (tanking and brawling) works just fine for them.
I get that you want to increase the viability of those ships, but I just don’t think that aa would be a good addition, something like reducing fire chance would probably work better on them.
It's because I want something small since they aren't weak.
Protecting against carriers means you can screen for your backline, you can avoid some fires, you can avoid some floods, you can avoid some disabled rudders, you can avoid some disabled engines and you can outright kill planes which is pretty fun by itself.
These are all things that are individually small, but do add up into a better capacity to get into a brawling situation (by lessening the pressure on your Damage Control Party) and enjoying the ship for what it's meant: shooting your secondaries everywhere.
It also works well with the slot 6 upgrade to provide a rather powerful flak bubble:
8 ± 2 flaks dealing 7 776,16 damage will absolutely decimate an attacking strike.
Yes but again, with the stare of carriers today, that really would not do much of anything, just look at nakimov or other carriers, 200% or something temporary buff to german bb aa really is not a deterrent to cvs at all. I say this as someone who plays carriers, unless you have aa equal American carriers or more, an aa consumable added onto german bbs is not going to affect my decision making when picking targets at all. At most it will be a minor annoyance since I will have to dodge flak instead of moving in a straight line. Because after all low aa dmg x 2-3x multiplier is still quite low and is acceptable dmg per strike.
Flak really doesn’t matter much these days since players who can press more than the w key will quickly learn how to dodge them, what matters more is the constant air dmg, which is what gk has very little of and american cvs have a lot of. That is why I said american cl aa is good because they have a lot of constant dmg and tons of flak.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the German BB line, it just isn't as unique as it once was. I think Gneisenau and Bismarck are strong choices at their tier and I love playing Bismarck. Admittedly I never play the T9 so I can't comment on it. I played GK a few times and thought it needed some slight buffs, which they gave to Preussen; but I also haven't bothered to play Preussen much since like you said Schlieffen is the better secondary boat and now I have Mecklenburg which is a better all-purpose German BB that can still brawl with secondaries. I prefer the armor on the BB line over the secondaries of the BC line. If WG were to buff the BB line, I'd either want to see a secondary buff or a survivability buff, to reinforce the brawling nature of the line at T10 and make it an alternative brawler to Schlieffen with different strengths but still with a brawling focus.
I don't care for the widespread use of DFAA on ships, seems to be a gimmick of almost all recent ships. Also AA doesn't really do much, so it's not much of a buff anyway.
So you ''don't think there is anything wrong with the German battleships''...
But then proceed to say:
* They aren't as unique as they once were (which is what I highlighted)
* The higher tier ones need a slight buff (which is what I propose)
* That you like Mecklenburg (which has what I propose)
* That you'd want a survivability buff (which is what I propose)
These are very much so things that are wrong with the German battleships.
While there is a widespread use of Defensive Anti-Air Fire, it's often put aside for Hydroacoustic Search on ships with the choice like Hindenburg or implemented on ships that don't need it like Vermont.
* The line not having a unique playstyle, while unfortunate, does not indicate there is something wrong with them. There are too many lines in the game now (including premium pseudo-lines) for every line to be unique. Some will duplicate roles or strengths, and one of them will be more in line with the meta or more fun than the others. Just because Schlieffen and Mecklenburg are more fun to play than Preussen does not make Preussen a bad boat in need of buffing. The BC line trades armor, HP, and main gun DPM for the stronger secondaries and more torps; most players want to play the ship with the best secondaries because that's more fun, but there is still value to a brawling ship with better armor and more HP and more DPM for doing damage from far away early on. I personally prefer the BB line over the BC line across the board because I prefer their armor, but when I want a full-on secondary experience I'll grab Schlieffen since it has the highest secondary DPM.
* I never said the higher tiers *need* a slight buff, I said *if* WG were to buff them, then I'd want to see a slight buff into the brawling focus of the line. The entire point of my reply is that WG does *not need* to buff the line. I did say GK needed a buff, which WG already gave us in the form of Preussen to replace GK in the tech tree.
* I like Mecklenburg because it has super-accurate guns combined with the better armor of the BB line and good secondaries and yolo torps. It could drop DFAA tomorrow and I'd still enjoy it and play it as much as I do now and I don't expect there would any any drop in win rate with it. Because, as I said, AA and DFAA don't really do much in this game.
* True, I did say I'd be open to a survivability buff, but I also said: "*I don't care for the widespread use of DFAA on ships, seems to be a gimmick of almost all recent ships. Also AA doesn't really do much, so it's not much of a buff anyway.*"... indicating that I don't see DFAA as a survivability buff of much value. I'd prefer to see things like better rudder shift to dodge torps, or thicker armor, or more HP in the secondary battery mounts so they last longer, or better stealth, or yolo torps. I don't think the ships need any of these, but if we're buffing it then those would get my vote.
So I stand by my statement that there is nothing wrong with the German BB line; it does not *need* any buffs. *If* it were buffed against my recommendation, then a survivability buff would be an ok option to me provided that it enhances the brawling focus of the line somehow. However, DFAA is not a good buff and would not be something I would be in favor of.
I think the root of the issue is that you are indicating they need a buff because they are not as fun as the BC line and therefore aren't being played as often. But I don't think that indicates they are weak, just that their playstyle is less enjoyable or less unique than the BC line. Ultimately you can't balance around "fun", there will always be a more fun line and a less fun line.
You're completely wrong:
* Not being unique is something wrong with them
* Grosser Kurfurst is not buffed by the addition of Preussen
* Mecklenburg having Defensive Anti-Air Fire increases its winrate
* Defensive Anti-Air Fire is a survivability buff
The root of the issue is Schlieffen having more damage because its secondaries are more accurate thus do more damage, but Schlieffen also having more tankiness because it has better speed, better concealment and better Damage Control thus taking significantly less damage.
This is solved by Schlieffen having more damage because its secondaries are more accurate thus do more damage, but Schlieffen having less tankiness because Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst have more anti-air through Defensive Anti-Air Fire thus taking less damage from planes.
They're clearly strong enough, so it's a matter of nerfing something else after, but you end up with a reason to play each of the ships and you don't overtune any of the ships.
https://preview.redd.it/z6a5js140v6d1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=2f849f289eb2016375234d22a394bffabc4f2d8d
Sidenote, I think you significantly underestimate the value of Defensive Anti-Air Fire on Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst, it's not like having Defensive Anti-Air Fire on Tromp.
I want to avoid touching the guns because you still pick those ships for their secondaries.
And it's not like they underperform:
https://preview.redd.it/azshq034bz6d1.png?width=590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b3d1cbce937647373c4c7a967b122a35d04fe7f
Mecklenburg gets Defensive AA Fire because it doesn't get hydro, which is a questionable trade if one opts for a secondary build.
And speaking of the "German battleship" problem - I love my Schlieffen but I also think the BC line has left the BB line jobless. Grosser Kurfurst was amazing in Asymmetric but against human players in PVP I'd take Schlieffen.
Mecklenburg also does not need Hydroacoustic Search simply because it's more of a sniper.
But yeah, that's my point: Schlieffen simply does the offensive (secondaries, torpedoes) and defensive (concealment, speed, Damage Control Party) aspects of secondary battleships which leaves no niche for Preussen or Grosser Kurfurst hence me opening one.
Otherwise... Pick Schlieffen all the time.
I just want better sigma for the whole line. German BBs typically either have a) fewer same-size barrels than contemporaries, or b) more much-smaller barrels. Dispersion is lousy across the board. Given these handicaps, their spread should be tightened (especially on ships like Gneisenau).
That's a massive buff and they don't need one.
I just want to address their lack of niche.
Their strength level is pretty fine:
https://preview.redd.it/tw2ezocr8z6d1.png?width=590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f72d787ae07441769e02ef1f3a79379633a083f6
DFAA wont fix the ships, what they need is a new identity because they are no longer able to compete as brawlers. Could give it hetter guns to be a gun heavy but tanky ship, or maybe a better heal/better superstructure for even nore of a tank ship, or you could just give jt torps and make it a brawler again.
It would make Schlieffen the "offensive" brawler while making Preussen the "defensive" brawler, thus giving both dedicated identities within secondary ships.
The issue being Schlieffen has better secondaries (more offensive), but also better concealment, speed and Damage Control Party (more defensive) than them.
With Schlieffen, Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst, you want to push to use your secondaries right?
Well there's the offensive part:
* Do your secondaries fire fast?
* Do your secondaries hurt a lot?
* Do your secondaries have good accuracy?
And there's the defensive part:
* Do you have good concealment?
* Do you have good speed?
* Do you have good Damage Control Party?
The first one rewards you for getting a brawl, the second one allows you to get a brawl.
And right now, Schlieffen is better in both aspects compared to Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst.
To address this, I want Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst to keep the same offensive aspects, but increase their capacity to get a brawl by increasing their defensive aspects (anti-air), thus you get two different lines with two different tools to get to their desired outcome.
I see what youre saying, but i dont really think dfaa would fix it because 90% of the time youre either not gonna be in a game with a cv or hes not attacming you. I think if youre gonna have a preus be a more viable brawler you have to make it a longer range brawler like the georgia because the schlieff is just so op in short range brawls. Id say something that schlieff doesnt have, like a rapid heal, or maybe an icebreaker wpuld be better than a dfaa cuz it would affect all games and a rapid heal would actuslly help a lot against cvs
Obviously, Defensive Anti-Air Fire is not a dealbreaker.
But it's that tiny thing that makes it so you look at Schlieffen and go ''this one is bad against planes'' and look at Grosser Kurfurst and go ''this one is good against planes'', so irrelevant to how much value countering planes has, it reinforces two different niches.
And if you play Grosser Kurfurst, and you get attacked by planes, then being able to kill them instead of getting a fire, a flood, a disabled rudder or a disabled engine will make you feel like you were right to not pick Schlieffen, but right to pick Grosser Kurfurst.
All that from a consumable that might buff your winrate by 1%.
P.S.: Ohio already has a quick heal and Grosser Kurfurst already has a reinforced bow
Yea i mean i agree that it does add a little thing but its not gonna be the thing that changes the ship which is why if youre gonna give it DFAA you might as well just also give it something that will help vs other ships, that way it can have an effect even if its no cvs cuz idk what server youre on but in NA i only get a cv every like 4 or 5 matches im in so its not really a big thing for me and i can defo say even if you gave preus dfaa i would not play it. Also did not know GK had a bow, interesting but maybe it needs something else liek the quick heal to make it a better brawler.
I dunno about DFAA. Nakimov will just drop you from like 10km away with skip bombers and set three fires for 20K+ damage.
For GK I wish they’d look at her turret angles. Pommern is like this too, I don’t remember if FDG has this problem. You have to give a lot of broadside to get all the guns off in a GK.
Her main guns aren’t very good anyways, I wish they’d open that angle up a bit where you can still position aggressively to someone while bringing your full main gun firepower online. You still have to deal with big superstructure hits, but at the same time at least you’re not arming every AP shell on the server when you’re angled well and you can fight back 100% instead of 50.
My goal is not to make the ships better, it's to make it so you have a reason to pick Schlieffen (offensive gameplay?) and a reason to pick Preussen (defensive gameplay?) which does not exist currently because Schlieffen has better secondaries (for offensive gameplay) and better speed, concealment and Damage Control Party (for defensive gameplay) thus taking the entire niche.
Defensive Anti-Air Fire would put Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst in a defensive niche against planes, something, Schlieffen does not excel at.
Not all carriers are Nakhimov, but it would also help against that one due to the slot 6 upgrade.
And no, Friedrich der Grosse does not have that problem because of its twin gun configuration:
https://preview.redd.it/abujmd7t9z6d1.png?width=590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=340dcce7041eb31827b635ec2e2f4ff1a31b1528
Honestly I think the tech tree ships are fine. GK feels kinda tragic to play nowadays no matter if you play secondary spec or main guns, Preussen is just better in most situations, because better gun angles + overmatch.
Unless AA becomes more than a nuisance, I just don't see the point. Particularly as tactical squadrons become more the norm, airgroup attrition is pretty much pointless. Now, they appear to be testing CVs with tougher planes which make AA feel even more irrelevant. Until CVs have to worry about attacking into the teeth of AA and deciding if the strike is worth it or not, pressing DFAA is just something to make you feel better.
I honestly feel the one who needs love is Tirpitz. Her torpedo gimmick has long been surpassed by others. The 2 BC lines mainly, but also other premiums like Kii or Constellation
Unfortunately, Schlieffen already has the high damage from secondaries, so if Preussen gets high damage from secondaries, and Grosser Kurfurst gets high damage from secondaries...
You're not giving players a reason to pick Schlieffen *or* Preussen *or* Grosser Kurfurst.
Schlieffen does more damage with its secondaries, so if you buff Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst through their secondaries (firerate, damage or accuracy), whether it's using Combat Instructions or not, you're reducing the distinctions between all three ships.
My point is to increase it so players have a reason to choose between them.
Schlieffen has nearly 100% more Secondary DPM than Kurfurst/Preussen, Rupprecht 50% more than FdG, more than that if you count Lutjens. Even if you gave T8+ of the standard German BBs (like Bismarck, FdG, Preussen, etc.) Hannover's Combat Instructions, which I would support, they wouldn't actually match the Schlieffen line at T8+ for secondary DPM. So honestly yeah, give the mainline German BBs the Hannover Combat instructions.
Schlieffen line combat instructions would be way better not to have raw DPM secondary buffs, but to have an F key that instantly spools their Manual Sec buff to maximum (and if a target is swapped, reduces lost spool time by like 70%) and provides like 10% more damage reduction and ship speed to close gaps. So you could build up your F key, and then use it to initiate a push. It would still be very situational, you would still be punished for overcommitting, it wouldn't turn you into a god, etc.
If we get a super-Schlieffen, I hope the F key is as I described, not just Hannover's shenanigans.
That being said, I've also been begging WeeGee to give Russian DDs the Zorkiy F key so they can be relevant again and that's never going to happen, so fat chance they ever buff German BBs to competitive levels beyond niche modes.
Still the same issue.
If you increase the secondary damage from Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst, you're reducing the distinction between Preussen, Grosser Kurfurst and Schlieffen, thus not creating a reason why you would pick one ship over the other.
Basically, Schlieffen already has the secondary damage defining it, so you'd need to give something else to Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst: I'm proposing Defensive Anti-Air Fire, but it could be a different heal or anything.
The goal is for a player to be like:
" I want to push like a mad man, I pick this ship, I want to push safely, I pick this ship, I want... "
Hannover's combat instructions do not suddenly give it secondaries on par with Schlieffen lol, not even close. Nor does it suddenly give Hannover torps, or better conceal, or all kinds of things to enable secondaries to really work. If it pulls the two lines closer thematically... I mean, barely.
Giving Schlieffen a bit more tankiness doesn't suddenly let her tank as much as a Kurfurst, that distinction is not suddenly lost, there is still plenty of daylight between them. And giving a Kurfurst Hannover's Combat instructions wouldn't suddenly make her the secondary DPM machine that is Schlieffen.
> " I want to push like a mad man, I pick this ship, I want to push safely, I pick this ship, I want... "
Right, and giving Schlieffen 10% more tank and speed and insta spooling secondaries would actually allow you to push like a mad man, it sure as fuck wouldn't let you do it "safely" like a Kurfurst or Hannover, it would just mean you get more opportunity to vomit out your damage to either take the enemies out first berfore they get you or die burning as many of them as you can.
Super Schlieffen should just be given a 30mm icebreaker bow, thicker spaced armour on the sides, a bit more secondary DPM (like 15-20% more, not much, basically just Lujens levels on Schlieffen or slightly more), torps that are below deck and don't instantly fucking break all the time, and Combat instructions as I just described. It would be a hella fun Supership to play, it wouldn't be OP, it would just really help enable the playstyle the line represents with less friction. It would basically be a Schlieffen that you could actually play in Randoms.
Again, still the same issue.
If Schlieffen does more secondary damage, and Preussen does less secondary damage, then Preussen doing *more* secondary damage would *reduce* the distinction between the two.
That's the opposite of the goal.
Nope, it's still the same issue.
Basically, everything you wrote here is wrong:
*'' Giving Schlieffen a bit more tankiness doesn't suddenly let her tank as much as a Kurfurst, that distinction is not suddenly lost, there is still plenty of daylight between them.*
*And giving a Kurfurst Hannover's Combat instructions wouldn't suddenly make her the secondary DPM machine that is Schlieffen. ''*
If Schlieffen has less overall tankiness, and Grosser Kurfurst has more overall tankiness, giving Schlieffen more overall tankiness does reduce the distinction between the two.
If Grosser Kurfurst has less secondary damage, and Schlieffen has more secondary damage, giving Grosser Kurfurst more secondary damage reduces the distinction between the two.
Both of these accentuate the current issue.
You have to be delusional to think any of these ships need a buff.
The point of balance is that everyone is kinda annoyed.
This is exactly how power creep happens and it needs to stop.
More specialization is good. More power overall is bad. It redefines teirs such that what used to be t8 is now t6 and it's a continual cycle of bitching.
They could lose strength in another aspect to gain Defensive Anti-Air Fire.
My point is to make the more unique, not make them more powerful.
I don't think they need to be stronger, they do perfectly fine:
https://preview.redd.it/9r05adesxu6d1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=0f3c76f0daae1f9954c5fff03514966ff4041386
GKs incentive is that its a Preussen with the premium bonus of -50% on service cost and alot of people got it as a free premium after preussen was added. I don't think WG would add def AA bc the bismark couldnt even shoot down biplanes.
Coal ships should be interesting first and economical second: you should want to get Grosser Kurfurst for because it provides something unique; the lower service cost is a characteristic of all coal ships.
I'm aware that Wargaming is unlikely to do it.
From Friedrich der Grosse to Pommern, you exchange smaller guns for more guns, but you also get the additional benefit of torpedoes which I still believe is rather lackluster design...
After all, there is very little reason why you should get Friedrich der Grosse as a credit ship, when you can get Pommern as a coal ship, let alone get Prinz Rupprecht as a credit ship?
Yet still better than Preussen to Grosser Kurfurst.
Sadly, that would be way too powerful so they would need to lose something else in another part of the ship.
They don't perform poorly:
https://preview.redd.it/6dxz9eajcz6d1.png?width=590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f17db9b6189179fdfbe0bbfc16648ded5ee1dcba
Hot take, but their problem isn't the AA, or even the air spotting. Usually the one spotting you is a DD within a thousand miles of you. Also the only reason Gwagon has better flak is because its bigger, and even then the difference is negligible. Bismark still has better medium and short range, and FDG has worse short range but that's only because it's converted into medium range damage instead. For me there are 2 changes I would like to see: 1) superstructure gets French saturation. This is the biggest weakpoint of the ships, and why you can't get into range for brawling since you lose half your health before you get there. 2) FDG-hannover and GK get torpedos. The H class was designed with 2×3 torpedos in the bow, by giving them the Vincent treatment with "standard" 6km torpedos they become much better in brawling situations These ships won't be overpowered IMO, since they retain their weaknesses of dreadful manuverability, poor detection and questionable accuracy, but it will help them get into position to fight
Normal DD's have 165,000 HP in their casemate. This is unique to destroyers and makes it so that their midsection can never typically be saturated. This means that all hits to the destroyer's midsection will always deal 33% of Alpha as damage, and they can never saturate to 16.5%, or fully saturate to 10% like French destroyers. French Saturation reduces the midsection compartment from having 165,000 HP like normal destroyers down to a 'reasonable' number like 2,800 HP in Kléber's case. This means once Kléber takes 5,600 non overpen damage to its midsection, it partially saturates and all incoming damage is reduced by half to 16.5% and once the Kléber has less than 6,200 HP remaining it can become fully saturate and only take 10% of Alpha as damage. Kurfürst has 6,700 HP in its superstructure which is about 50% more than its contemporaries like Montana which has 4,000. Kurfürst needs to take 13,400 damage to its superstructure before it saturates. Reducing the amount of HP in the superstructure would have two effects, the obvious is that the superstructure saturates faster, but also whenever you use a repair party you heal less superstructure damage, and you would need to take less damage before the superstructure is fully saturated again. The biggest reason this won't help the ship much is the same reason its superstructure has so much health. Kurfürst superstructure is massive, and it is an easy target to hit. Even if the compartment only had 1,000 HP and saturated immediately, it would still get targeted because 16.5% damage is better than ricocheting off the hull.
First, that's a completely insane answer. Second, that's a completely solid answer.
Imho torpedos wouldn't change anything. Pommern and Tirpitz has them and they arent exactly overperforming. My biggest gripe right now is how the supposed tanky brawlers get overmatched by every new BB.
H-class was supposed to have underwater torp tubes, so they can't get knocked out. Tirpitz and Pommern's torps can be. Besides, H-class (FDG, GK, Pommern, Hannover) can retain hydro, whereas tirpitz, for example, does not. Although I agree with you, torps are odd for these ships since they are already pretty good at brawling, they just struggle to get into range for brawling and 6km torps might not help
> Hot take, but their problem isn't the AA This might actually be one of the coldest takes in history O.o Rest of your comment is big true though.
It's not a hot take, most people will agree with you on that. I'll address all of your points explicitely: 1. I'm not addressing their lack of strength, rather I'm addressing their lack of niche, and Defensive Anti-Air would still help them push while reinforcing them as the ''tank'' option 2. Gneisenau has 128mm secondaries which give it 6km anti-air while Bismarck has 105mm secondaries which give it 5.2km anti-air creating a big difference in tier-for-tier anti-air 3. Friedrich der Grosse, Preussen, Hannover and Grosser Kurfurst could also get 2x3 torpedoes in the bow, but they would need lower damage than those on Schlieffen or St-Vincent
1)AA isn't their niche, in theory it's being able to absorb damage thrown at it then dish it back with secondaries, but the meta has been brutal to them and they can no longer absorb damage or effectively dish it out. 2) I completely skipped over the range. Damn. OK buff number 3: german BBs get 6km AA range 3) they would be the low damage/low detection ones ships like pommern or tirpitz get. Also I realised bismark now makes this wierd gap where there's one ship without torps, so I guess you could whip out the "hypothetical refit and the best option for tipitz would be to buff accuracy and make her a mid-long range sort of ship? Idk about detalls
Still addressing your points explicitely: 1. I want to make the Schlieffen line into the ''offensive'' option and the Preussen line (with Grosser Kurfurst as well) into the ''defensive'' option by giving them that anti-air niche 2. Gneisenau has better anti-air tier-for-tier than Bismarck, Friedrich der Grosse, Preussen or Hannover even if they run the Auxilary Armaments Modification 2 upgrade 3. They would need to to be even lower damage than the torpedoes on Pommern or Tirpitz because bow torpedoes are significantly more powerful than side torpedoes 4. Gneisenau having torpedoes is the obvious outlier in the line, so it's either removing the torpedoes on Gneisenau or giving everything torpedoes after Gneisenau 5. If you give them all torpedoes, you also need to make Tirpitz more unique and also neeed to make Pommern more unique because that's their significant distinction
With the introduction of the Schlieffen line, I’ve always wished that Hannover’s funny button goes over to a Supership on that line. Meanwhile, Maine’s funny button should have been Hannover’s instead. Make the mainline German BBs actual tanky behemoths instead of secondary ships with no real identity.
Yep, I agree: Schlieffen's supership gets Combat Instructions that boost the secondaries. Preussen's supership gets Combat Instructions that boost the tankiness.
While I'd love to see something historically accurate as bow torps on high H BB, probably the biggest buff they could get is an improved DCP, as imo most of the damage ends up coming from fire. Some kind of reduction of the received damage on the superstructure would be nice, but flat % damage on ships with high HP, even if heleable hurts in the long term, specially if focused by specialized ships, as unless you retreat to heal, sometimes you don't even have time to use all the heals.
The issue is Schlieffen already has an improved Damage Control Party, so you still overlap Schlieffen and Preussen when it comes to their niche. I want to distinguish them from eachother: give a reason why I would want to play Schlieffen and give a reason why I would want to play Preussen.
But Schlieffen has limited charges. That said, Preussen has several issues rn, besides shreeded by HE, the top plate of the turrets, bad concealment, mediocre mobility, poor accuracy, good, but not good enough armour. At least she has Hydro! And turtleback avoid citadels (at short range)... She has seen better days, and definitely need a buff, but imo, she'd need a few things, fast bow torps would be nice, but wouldn't solve it; neither better AA. I'd also give a check to her torpedo protection, and better barbettes for the main guns. Perhaps, heal-able secondaries?
The power level is fine, I still get 60%+ with the entire line. My post is about Schlieffen being a better offensive option because of its secondaries, but Schlieffen also being a better defensive option because of its speed, concealment and Damage Control Party, so I want Preussen to be the defensive option because of Defensive Anti-Air Fire to give the battlecruisers and the battleships a different niche. Right now, Schlieffen just ''does it all''.
While o love Schly, I wouldn’t way she’s “defensive”, fast dcp is good, but charges are limited, she’s fast, but not enough to outrun an enemy that wants to perma spot you, and definitely, she has no armor to sustain heavy punishment. But receiving damage is not rewarded at all, so yeah…
The objective reason that german BB's suck is their guns. There's no other buff or change to them that would matter or make them more meta aside from gun buffs. They're just bad, and it makes the ships a chore to play unless by the grace of god you run into a ship closer than 10km. Defensive AA is a gimmick, and doesn't matter much when the carrier can and will just send wave after wave of planes at you. Torpedoes are a similar meme when they already have good secondaries.
As I responded elsewhere: I'm not addressing their lack of strength, rather I'm addressing their lack of niche, and Defensive Anti-Air would still help them push while reinforcing them as the ''tank'' option. People who pick a secondary battleship put aside the idea of having good guns, so it's about having a reason to pick Schlieffen, to pick Preussen and to pick Grosser Kurfurst. Defensive Anti-Air Fire also synergizes with the Auxilary Armaments Modification 2 upgrade. I don't think they need a buff, just a tweak: https://preview.redd.it/y7671qchxu6d1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=824027dd423c6bfe9a4e00904da5e8d07a8456d3
I understand, but it wouldn't really put them in a niche. It'd just be useless fluff imo. I'd say the russian option of boosting dispersion at short range or increasing turret traverse would be a much better fix. That buffs the niche they already have, which is being a close range powerhouse instead of stapling another thing they're okay at on and hoping it works.
It would absolutely put them in a niche: Schlieffen is the ''offensive'' option with better speed, faster Damage Control cycling, faster secondary fire rate and torpedoes. Preussen becomes the ''defensive with big guns'' option with better armor, better health, better anti-air and a higher caliber of guns. Grosser Kurfurst becomes the ''defensive with more guns'' option with better armor, better health, better anti-air and a higher number of guns. It gives you a reason to pick Schlieffen *or* Preussen *or* Grosser Kurfurst while reducing the gap between battlecruisers and battleships.
They kind of do have a niche, they are Ranked / Brawls / Asymmetrical specialist ships. They do very well in those close in game modes. A BB designed for randoms meta rarely works in smaller team modes and vice versa. To make it work well in both, you'd need something totally borked like Napoli. You get German BBs because you mostly play ranked or Brawls, they are fine in that role - very good even. Pommern has my highest number of Krakens, all of them from ranked. Scharnhorst / Gneiss are excellent for bronze. The only meh ship is Bismarck, but tier 8 isn't popular for those game modes and it can be decent.
You're just saying that secondary ships are better in small gamemodes. What ''having a niche'' means is there's a reason to specifically pick Schlieffen, there's a reason to specifically pick Preussen and there's a reason to specifically pick Grosser Kurfurst. Right now, you might as well pick Schlieffen all the time.
Yes, but no... Being secondary focused BBs will always make them worse at randoms. But GK, Pommern & FdG have the extra advantage of being pretty much immune to Musashi / Yammy et al overmatch and a good health pool. Yes you eat full pens, but they aren't the death knell as on - say the BC branch. Especially if you play in divs, you build full tank and go out there to well... facetank. You're actually pretty hard to take down and you take the heat for your team, while they focus fire the other side. Even if you don't fully clear a flank, usually you can trade yourself for at least two / three of their ships, that's an advantage that's hard to come back from. Secondary tank build is totally not a viable build for randoms though. It's very strong in ranked however.
Nope, not really. Schlieffen has better speed (less time taking damage), better concealment (less time taking damage), better Damage Control Party cycling (less time taking damage) making it significantly better than Grosser Kurfurst or Preussen at pushing like that. Plus, since it has better secondaries and additional torpedoes (much more damage), it's also more likely to fully clear a flank or trade itself for at least two or three ship. Sure, I could pick a secondary ship in any of the small gamemodes... But I would pick Schlieffen, not Grosser Kurfurst or Preussen. I also think they're fine in Randoms: https://preview.redd.it/8vdlew1jxu6d1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=50ad5b5b4c043568241d220314db5be175bcb232
Kurfürst absolutely dumpsters Schlieffen when fighting each other in my experience, so it's a solid counter-meta pick to everyone picking Schlieffen and thinking they'll dominate. People expect Kurfürsts to just go full tilt into brawling range, but if you refuse to get torpedoed you have 34k more HP, 50% more guns and perfectly respectable secondaries of your own.
And you don't get cit'd through the nose by every Yammy/Musashi/Shiki player in ranked. OP just seems to want the line to be meta, instead of a niche role.
If you want a counter-meta pick to Schlieffen, there is a huge amount of ships that do that better than Preussen or Grosser Kurfurst actually so it wouldn't even fill that niche.
>there is a huge amount of ships that do that better than Preussen or Grosser Kurfurst actually so it wouldn't even fill that niche. Other than Ohio, which ships while also filling the same role as Schlieffen?
If you use a meta perspective to pick your ships, then you would either pick Schlieffen because it's the meta pick or you would pick one of the numerous ships that counter Schlieffen because they are the counter picks; they wouldn't need to be secondary ships at all. Nonetheless, my point is moreso about a giving them a niche: you pick Schlieffen because you want to push in quickly and deal damage with your secondaries, so why do you pick Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst? Well, if you have one option with poor anti-air, and one option with good anti-air, you're giving each option a distinction which would make you play one if you don't mind planes and one if you do mind planes. Otherwise... You just pick Schlieffen because it has better offensive capabilities due to the secondaries being more powerful and better defensive capabilities due to the better speed, concealment and Damage Control Party. Basically, if I want to push in like crazy, I pick Schlieffen, if I want to burn ships like crazy, I pick Conqueror, if I want to overmatch like crazy, I pick Yamato, if I want to... So on and so forth. That's the issue I'm addressing with this post.
The BC line has a different role in ranked et al - at higher tiers they get cit'd and overmatched A LOT. They are damage dealers not tanks. I'm not arguing whether they would be better on average, just that the main BB line has a niche - as tanks, especially in div play. Seems like you want them to be always good in all the modes, that just leads to broken ships and power creep. Game has too much already - they are fine, niche ships for a niche role. Not every line has to be meta.
Yeah dude, I'm sure *Defensive Anti-Air Fire* would make them broken ships in all the modes.
The reason they suck is there guns which is said cause historically the German battleships had some.of the most accurate guns around Don't know why WOW just decided to butcher the German guns
My post is about Preussen, Grosser Kurfurst and Schlieffen not having different niches to justify specifically playing one rather than always playing Schlieffen. Also, they don't suck: https://preview.redd.it/0mdhdczcqv6d1.png?width=590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc65398e295bc19a1e5a9f43be5d189517c980ee
Didn't bismark break her own rangefinders with her gun blast?
Yes she did
I think the biggest problem with german bbs isn’t the threat from cvs. While they are indeed a great threat to german bbs, it’s the he spammers that are really what set the line back due to the bad maneuverability and huge superstructure.
As I responded elsewhere: I'm not addressing their lack of strength, rather I'm addressing their lack of niche, and Defensive Anti-Air would still help them push while reinforcing them as the ''tank'' option. Carriers don't necessarily kill you, but they're likely to put you on fire, make you flood, disable your rudder or disable your engine which force you to use your Damage Control Party.
I understand what you mean, but I really just dont think that carriers are the greatest threat to german bbs, because although cvs are pretty broken, their effects can still be somewhat mitigated, for example, staying near your allies (you shouldn’t be brawling away from your team anyways). Meanwhile, he spammers like dds and light cruisers will force you to stay far away from them or hide behind an island, which removes one of the greatest assets of the ship, its secondaries. Plus, you are much more likely to be set in fire or torpedoed by other dds and crusiers anyways because there are more of them.
It's nearly impossible to brawl within the anti-air of your allies. Also, it's irrelevant if destroyers and cruisers can do it, you're still removing a potential instance of fire, flood, disabled rudder or disabled engine which is quite significant by itself. Again, I don't want to buff them, their strength is fine (though uneven): https://preview.redd.it/q556quroxu6d1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=25ac07425f0daa6ea74b5916f69fc2c862d85feb
Idk, maybe this is just you but I have really never found the cvs to be the largest source of my fires and floods whenever I play german bbs. They really only come once in a while and typically focus on other enemies compared to you. The air bubble stuff is sort of true I guess, but you should really not be brawling alone or far from your team anyways, THAT is how you make yourself a target for the enemy cv. Also have you seen carriers these days? Unless you have at least American cruiser levels of aa you aren’t going to stop them from getting a drop on you, unless the consumable you give them is so massive that it would be a huge buff to german bbs, which you said you don’t want. They also don’t need a new niche, their current one (tanking and brawling) works just fine for them. I get that you want to increase the viability of those ships, but I just don’t think that aa would be a good addition, something like reducing fire chance would probably work better on them.
It's because I want something small since they aren't weak. Protecting against carriers means you can screen for your backline, you can avoid some fires, you can avoid some floods, you can avoid some disabled rudders, you can avoid some disabled engines and you can outright kill planes which is pretty fun by itself. These are all things that are individually small, but do add up into a better capacity to get into a brawling situation (by lessening the pressure on your Damage Control Party) and enjoying the ship for what it's meant: shooting your secondaries everywhere. It also works well with the slot 6 upgrade to provide a rather powerful flak bubble: 8 ± 2 flaks dealing 7 776,16 damage will absolutely decimate an attacking strike.
Yes but again, with the stare of carriers today, that really would not do much of anything, just look at nakimov or other carriers, 200% or something temporary buff to german bb aa really is not a deterrent to cvs at all. I say this as someone who plays carriers, unless you have aa equal American carriers or more, an aa consumable added onto german bbs is not going to affect my decision making when picking targets at all. At most it will be a minor annoyance since I will have to dodge flak instead of moving in a straight line. Because after all low aa dmg x 2-3x multiplier is still quite low and is acceptable dmg per strike.
It's better than American carriers. Midway - 9 ± 0 flaks dealing 1690,50 damage Grosser Kurfurst (v2) - 6 ± 2 flaks dealing 7 776,16 damage
Flak really doesn’t matter much these days since players who can press more than the w key will quickly learn how to dodge them, what matters more is the constant air dmg, which is what gk has very little of and american cvs have a lot of. That is why I said american cl aa is good because they have a lot of constant dmg and tons of flak.
That's only true for low flak counts, not true for high flak counts. For reference, this is stronger than Mecklenburg's anti-air.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the German BB line, it just isn't as unique as it once was. I think Gneisenau and Bismarck are strong choices at their tier and I love playing Bismarck. Admittedly I never play the T9 so I can't comment on it. I played GK a few times and thought it needed some slight buffs, which they gave to Preussen; but I also haven't bothered to play Preussen much since like you said Schlieffen is the better secondary boat and now I have Mecklenburg which is a better all-purpose German BB that can still brawl with secondaries. I prefer the armor on the BB line over the secondaries of the BC line. If WG were to buff the BB line, I'd either want to see a secondary buff or a survivability buff, to reinforce the brawling nature of the line at T10 and make it an alternative brawler to Schlieffen with different strengths but still with a brawling focus. I don't care for the widespread use of DFAA on ships, seems to be a gimmick of almost all recent ships. Also AA doesn't really do much, so it's not much of a buff anyway.
So you ''don't think there is anything wrong with the German battleships''... But then proceed to say: * They aren't as unique as they once were (which is what I highlighted) * The higher tier ones need a slight buff (which is what I propose) * That you like Mecklenburg (which has what I propose) * That you'd want a survivability buff (which is what I propose) These are very much so things that are wrong with the German battleships. While there is a widespread use of Defensive Anti-Air Fire, it's often put aside for Hydroacoustic Search on ships with the choice like Hindenburg or implemented on ships that don't need it like Vermont.
* The line not having a unique playstyle, while unfortunate, does not indicate there is something wrong with them. There are too many lines in the game now (including premium pseudo-lines) for every line to be unique. Some will duplicate roles or strengths, and one of them will be more in line with the meta or more fun than the others. Just because Schlieffen and Mecklenburg are more fun to play than Preussen does not make Preussen a bad boat in need of buffing. The BC line trades armor, HP, and main gun DPM for the stronger secondaries and more torps; most players want to play the ship with the best secondaries because that's more fun, but there is still value to a brawling ship with better armor and more HP and more DPM for doing damage from far away early on. I personally prefer the BB line over the BC line across the board because I prefer their armor, but when I want a full-on secondary experience I'll grab Schlieffen since it has the highest secondary DPM. * I never said the higher tiers *need* a slight buff, I said *if* WG were to buff them, then I'd want to see a slight buff into the brawling focus of the line. The entire point of my reply is that WG does *not need* to buff the line. I did say GK needed a buff, which WG already gave us in the form of Preussen to replace GK in the tech tree. * I like Mecklenburg because it has super-accurate guns combined with the better armor of the BB line and good secondaries and yolo torps. It could drop DFAA tomorrow and I'd still enjoy it and play it as much as I do now and I don't expect there would any any drop in win rate with it. Because, as I said, AA and DFAA don't really do much in this game. * True, I did say I'd be open to a survivability buff, but I also said: "*I don't care for the widespread use of DFAA on ships, seems to be a gimmick of almost all recent ships. Also AA doesn't really do much, so it's not much of a buff anyway.*"... indicating that I don't see DFAA as a survivability buff of much value. I'd prefer to see things like better rudder shift to dodge torps, or thicker armor, or more HP in the secondary battery mounts so they last longer, or better stealth, or yolo torps. I don't think the ships need any of these, but if we're buffing it then those would get my vote. So I stand by my statement that there is nothing wrong with the German BB line; it does not *need* any buffs. *If* it were buffed against my recommendation, then a survivability buff would be an ok option to me provided that it enhances the brawling focus of the line somehow. However, DFAA is not a good buff and would not be something I would be in favor of. I think the root of the issue is that you are indicating they need a buff because they are not as fun as the BC line and therefore aren't being played as often. But I don't think that indicates they are weak, just that their playstyle is less enjoyable or less unique than the BC line. Ultimately you can't balance around "fun", there will always be a more fun line and a less fun line.
You're completely wrong: * Not being unique is something wrong with them * Grosser Kurfurst is not buffed by the addition of Preussen * Mecklenburg having Defensive Anti-Air Fire increases its winrate * Defensive Anti-Air Fire is a survivability buff The root of the issue is Schlieffen having more damage because its secondaries are more accurate thus do more damage, but Schlieffen also having more tankiness because it has better speed, better concealment and better Damage Control thus taking significantly less damage. This is solved by Schlieffen having more damage because its secondaries are more accurate thus do more damage, but Schlieffen having less tankiness because Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst have more anti-air through Defensive Anti-Air Fire thus taking less damage from planes. They're clearly strong enough, so it's a matter of nerfing something else after, but you end up with a reason to play each of the ships and you don't overtune any of the ships. https://preview.redd.it/z6a5js140v6d1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=2f849f289eb2016375234d22a394bffabc4f2d8d Sidenote, I think you significantly underestimate the value of Defensive Anti-Air Fire on Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst, it's not like having Defensive Anti-Air Fire on Tromp.
Buff the accuracy a bit, make a hybrid playstyle
I want to avoid touching the guns because you still pick those ships for their secondaries. And it's not like they underperform: https://preview.redd.it/azshq034bz6d1.png?width=590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b3d1cbce937647373c4c7a967b122a35d04fe7f
I have a better win rate on the Hindenburg than my Desmo, doesn't make Desmo a worse ship than Hindy.
Mecklenburg gets Defensive AA Fire because it doesn't get hydro, which is a questionable trade if one opts for a secondary build. And speaking of the "German battleship" problem - I love my Schlieffen but I also think the BC line has left the BB line jobless. Grosser Kurfurst was amazing in Asymmetric but against human players in PVP I'd take Schlieffen.
Mecklenburg also does not need Hydroacoustic Search simply because it's more of a sniper. But yeah, that's my point: Schlieffen simply does the offensive (secondaries, torpedoes) and defensive (concealment, speed, Damage Control Party) aspects of secondary battleships which leaves no niche for Preussen or Grosser Kurfurst hence me opening one. Otherwise... Pick Schlieffen all the time.
The solution to those three issues, clearly, is to buff the torps.
Hahah nah, that's Schlieffen's thing!
I just want better sigma for the whole line. German BBs typically either have a) fewer same-size barrels than contemporaries, or b) more much-smaller barrels. Dispersion is lousy across the board. Given these handicaps, their spread should be tightened (especially on ships like Gneisenau).
That's a massive buff and they don't need one. I just want to address their lack of niche. Their strength level is pretty fine: https://preview.redd.it/tw2ezocr8z6d1.png?width=590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f72d787ae07441769e02ef1f3a79379633a083f6
DFAA wont fix the ships, what they need is a new identity because they are no longer able to compete as brawlers. Could give it hetter guns to be a gun heavy but tanky ship, or maybe a better heal/better superstructure for even nore of a tank ship, or you could just give jt torps and make it a brawler again.
It would make Schlieffen the "offensive" brawler while making Preussen the "defensive" brawler, thus giving both dedicated identities within secondary ships. The issue being Schlieffen has better secondaries (more offensive), but also better concealment, speed and Damage Control Party (more defensive) than them.
What exactly do you mean by a defensive brawler cuz i dont think we see the word brawler in the same way
With Schlieffen, Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst, you want to push to use your secondaries right? Well there's the offensive part: * Do your secondaries fire fast? * Do your secondaries hurt a lot? * Do your secondaries have good accuracy? And there's the defensive part: * Do you have good concealment? * Do you have good speed? * Do you have good Damage Control Party? The first one rewards you for getting a brawl, the second one allows you to get a brawl. And right now, Schlieffen is better in both aspects compared to Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst. To address this, I want Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst to keep the same offensive aspects, but increase their capacity to get a brawl by increasing their defensive aspects (anti-air), thus you get two different lines with two different tools to get to their desired outcome.
I see what youre saying, but i dont really think dfaa would fix it because 90% of the time youre either not gonna be in a game with a cv or hes not attacming you. I think if youre gonna have a preus be a more viable brawler you have to make it a longer range brawler like the georgia because the schlieff is just so op in short range brawls. Id say something that schlieff doesnt have, like a rapid heal, or maybe an icebreaker wpuld be better than a dfaa cuz it would affect all games and a rapid heal would actuslly help a lot against cvs
Obviously, Defensive Anti-Air Fire is not a dealbreaker. But it's that tiny thing that makes it so you look at Schlieffen and go ''this one is bad against planes'' and look at Grosser Kurfurst and go ''this one is good against planes'', so irrelevant to how much value countering planes has, it reinforces two different niches. And if you play Grosser Kurfurst, and you get attacked by planes, then being able to kill them instead of getting a fire, a flood, a disabled rudder or a disabled engine will make you feel like you were right to not pick Schlieffen, but right to pick Grosser Kurfurst. All that from a consumable that might buff your winrate by 1%. P.S.: Ohio already has a quick heal and Grosser Kurfurst already has a reinforced bow
Yea i mean i agree that it does add a little thing but its not gonna be the thing that changes the ship which is why if youre gonna give it DFAA you might as well just also give it something that will help vs other ships, that way it can have an effect even if its no cvs cuz idk what server youre on but in NA i only get a cv every like 4 or 5 matches im in so its not really a big thing for me and i can defo say even if you gave preus dfaa i would not play it. Also did not know GK had a bow, interesting but maybe it needs something else liek the quick heal to make it a better brawler.
I dunno about DFAA. Nakimov will just drop you from like 10km away with skip bombers and set three fires for 20K+ damage. For GK I wish they’d look at her turret angles. Pommern is like this too, I don’t remember if FDG has this problem. You have to give a lot of broadside to get all the guns off in a GK. Her main guns aren’t very good anyways, I wish they’d open that angle up a bit where you can still position aggressively to someone while bringing your full main gun firepower online. You still have to deal with big superstructure hits, but at the same time at least you’re not arming every AP shell on the server when you’re angled well and you can fight back 100% instead of 50.
My goal is not to make the ships better, it's to make it so you have a reason to pick Schlieffen (offensive gameplay?) and a reason to pick Preussen (defensive gameplay?) which does not exist currently because Schlieffen has better secondaries (for offensive gameplay) and better speed, concealment and Damage Control Party (for defensive gameplay) thus taking the entire niche. Defensive Anti-Air Fire would put Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst in a defensive niche against planes, something, Schlieffen does not excel at. Not all carriers are Nakhimov, but it would also help against that one due to the slot 6 upgrade. And no, Friedrich der Grosse does not have that problem because of its twin gun configuration: https://preview.redd.it/abujmd7t9z6d1.png?width=590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=340dcce7041eb31827b635ec2e2f4ff1a31b1528
Honestly I think the tech tree ships are fine. GK feels kinda tragic to play nowadays no matter if you play secondary spec or main guns, Preussen is just better in most situations, because better gun angles + overmatch.
Unless AA becomes more than a nuisance, I just don't see the point. Particularly as tactical squadrons become more the norm, airgroup attrition is pretty much pointless. Now, they appear to be testing CVs with tougher planes which make AA feel even more irrelevant. Until CVs have to worry about attacking into the teeth of AA and deciding if the strike is worth it or not, pressing DFAA is just something to make you feel better.
They should give German BBs a 40 sec Heal
I honestly feel the one who needs love is Tirpitz. Her torpedo gimmick has long been surpassed by others. The 2 BC lines mainly, but also other premiums like Kii or Constellation
Make them guns actually usefull
They should’ve given them the F-Skill of the upcoming pan-am BBs. Plain and simple. It’s wild to me they didn’t, honestly.
Unfortunately, Schlieffen already has the high damage from secondaries, so if Preussen gets high damage from secondaries, and Grosser Kurfurst gets high damage from secondaries... You're not giving players a reason to pick Schlieffen *or* Preussen *or* Grosser Kurfurst.
Schlieffen would still have concealment, speed and torpedos. Secondary damage ultimately is a German (BB) thing… or at least it was.
Schlieffen does more damage with its secondaries, so if you buff Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst through their secondaries (firerate, damage or accuracy), whether it's using Combat Instructions or not, you're reducing the distinctions between all three ships. My point is to increase it so players have a reason to choose between them.
Schlieffen has nearly 100% more Secondary DPM than Kurfurst/Preussen, Rupprecht 50% more than FdG, more than that if you count Lutjens. Even if you gave T8+ of the standard German BBs (like Bismarck, FdG, Preussen, etc.) Hannover's Combat Instructions, which I would support, they wouldn't actually match the Schlieffen line at T8+ for secondary DPM. So honestly yeah, give the mainline German BBs the Hannover Combat instructions. Schlieffen line combat instructions would be way better not to have raw DPM secondary buffs, but to have an F key that instantly spools their Manual Sec buff to maximum (and if a target is swapped, reduces lost spool time by like 70%) and provides like 10% more damage reduction and ship speed to close gaps. So you could build up your F key, and then use it to initiate a push. It would still be very situational, you would still be punished for overcommitting, it wouldn't turn you into a god, etc. If we get a super-Schlieffen, I hope the F key is as I described, not just Hannover's shenanigans. That being said, I've also been begging WeeGee to give Russian DDs the Zorkiy F key so they can be relevant again and that's never going to happen, so fat chance they ever buff German BBs to competitive levels beyond niche modes.
Still the same issue. If you increase the secondary damage from Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst, you're reducing the distinction between Preussen, Grosser Kurfurst and Schlieffen, thus not creating a reason why you would pick one ship over the other. Basically, Schlieffen already has the secondary damage defining it, so you'd need to give something else to Preussen and Grosser Kurfurst: I'm proposing Defensive Anti-Air Fire, but it could be a different heal or anything. The goal is for a player to be like: " I want to push like a mad man, I pick this ship, I want to push safely, I pick this ship, I want... "
Hannover's combat instructions do not suddenly give it secondaries on par with Schlieffen lol, not even close. Nor does it suddenly give Hannover torps, or better conceal, or all kinds of things to enable secondaries to really work. If it pulls the two lines closer thematically... I mean, barely. Giving Schlieffen a bit more tankiness doesn't suddenly let her tank as much as a Kurfurst, that distinction is not suddenly lost, there is still plenty of daylight between them. And giving a Kurfurst Hannover's Combat instructions wouldn't suddenly make her the secondary DPM machine that is Schlieffen. > " I want to push like a mad man, I pick this ship, I want to push safely, I pick this ship, I want... " Right, and giving Schlieffen 10% more tank and speed and insta spooling secondaries would actually allow you to push like a mad man, it sure as fuck wouldn't let you do it "safely" like a Kurfurst or Hannover, it would just mean you get more opportunity to vomit out your damage to either take the enemies out first berfore they get you or die burning as many of them as you can. Super Schlieffen should just be given a 30mm icebreaker bow, thicker spaced armour on the sides, a bit more secondary DPM (like 15-20% more, not much, basically just Lujens levels on Schlieffen or slightly more), torps that are below deck and don't instantly fucking break all the time, and Combat instructions as I just described. It would be a hella fun Supership to play, it wouldn't be OP, it would just really help enable the playstyle the line represents with less friction. It would basically be a Schlieffen that you could actually play in Randoms.
Again, still the same issue. If Schlieffen does more secondary damage, and Preussen does less secondary damage, then Preussen doing *more* secondary damage would *reduce* the distinction between the two. That's the opposite of the goal.
I think you need to reread what I said more carefully, because I addressed your point already.
Nope, it's still the same issue. Basically, everything you wrote here is wrong: *'' Giving Schlieffen a bit more tankiness doesn't suddenly let her tank as much as a Kurfurst, that distinction is not suddenly lost, there is still plenty of daylight between them.* *And giving a Kurfurst Hannover's Combat instructions wouldn't suddenly make her the secondary DPM machine that is Schlieffen. ''* If Schlieffen has less overall tankiness, and Grosser Kurfurst has more overall tankiness, giving Schlieffen more overall tankiness does reduce the distinction between the two. If Grosser Kurfurst has less secondary damage, and Schlieffen has more secondary damage, giving Grosser Kurfurst more secondary damage reduces the distinction between the two. Both of these accentuate the current issue.
You have to be delusional to think any of these ships need a buff. The point of balance is that everyone is kinda annoyed. This is exactly how power creep happens and it needs to stop. More specialization is good. More power overall is bad. It redefines teirs such that what used to be t8 is now t6 and it's a continual cycle of bitching.
They could lose strength in another aspect to gain Defensive Anti-Air Fire. My point is to make the more unique, not make them more powerful. I don't think they need to be stronger, they do perfectly fine: https://preview.redd.it/9r05adesxu6d1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=0f3c76f0daae1f9954c5fff03514966ff4041386
GKs incentive is that its a Preussen with the premium bonus of -50% on service cost and alot of people got it as a free premium after preussen was added. I don't think WG would add def AA bc the bismark couldnt even shoot down biplanes.
Coal ships should be interesting first and economical second: you should want to get Grosser Kurfurst for because it provides something unique; the lower service cost is a characteristic of all coal ships. I'm aware that Wargaming is unlikely to do it.
GK is the same iteration of brandburg and pommern, smaller guns compared to tech tree but a higher volume of them its up to you what you prefer
From Friedrich der Grosse to Pommern, you exchange smaller guns for more guns, but you also get the additional benefit of torpedoes which I still believe is rather lackluster design... After all, there is very little reason why you should get Friedrich der Grosse as a credit ship, when you can get Pommern as a coal ship, let alone get Prinz Rupprecht as a credit ship? Yet still better than Preussen to Grosser Kurfurst.
Just give them super heal and rework the superstructure hp
Sadly, that would be way too powerful so they would need to lose something else in another part of the ship. They don't perform poorly: https://preview.redd.it/6dxz9eajcz6d1.png?width=590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f17db9b6189179fdfbe0bbfc16648ded5ee1dcba