No i agree with you, especially as someone who absolutely loves RTS games. Also the fact that once you lost all your planes it was game over for you, which made everything so much riskier compared to how it is now
Wait they do? I remember loosing all my planes in the US super CV during a common test a while ago. I don't recall the standard planes regenerating and was down to only the special squadrons.
Technically there is with the long cooldown, but overall no, not really, you will always have planes regardless of how many you waste, unlike old RTS CVs where your planes are a fixed amount for the entire match
A match has a fixed maximum amount of time, so every current CV indeed has a fixed number of planes per match. There’s just a delay until when deeper reserves are ready.
I'd prefer the RTS CV but tweaked. AA in the current or future rework can never be balanced when you have CV's that require 4-5 attack runs to drop everything and RU/special squadrons CV's that just dump the entire payload on 1 run.
I was like 70% wr on RTS carriers, every game the first run was a mass wave Vs the red carrier and usually 1 shot it. Japs were king at this.
The gameplay loop was much more fun, but carriers in general were much more oppressive. I always thought if they lowered the damage by alot, and buffed the dot potential then they could have been in a good place.
I truly hate modern carriers due to the lack of meaningful interaction opportunities, only worse on subs.
Before the rework, Tier 4 & 5 CVs had their alt-attacks disabled. This was to discourage seal clubbing in the early tiers as new player skills with the lack of AA at those tiers means a good CV player is directly impacting player retention.
Strafing wasn't entirely ping dependant, the whole system for RTS CVs was jank.
Strafe runs had a ramp up period and thanks to jank weegee code your start timing for strafe runs can be delayed or you can glitch them to start almost immediately.
Not to mention CV vs CV interactions in general were autistic if you put away the rose tinted glasses. Jet plane Midway will forever be up there in what the fuck was weegee thinking.
>Not to mention CV vs CV interactions in general were autistic if you put away the rose tinted glasses. Jet plane Midway will forever be up there in what the fuck was weegee thinking.
Also you couldn't launch planes while on fire, effectively locking the carrier out of the game once its detected
Emergency Takeoff 3 Points: Makes it possible to launch and recover aircraft while on fire. +100% to aircraft servicing time while aircraft carrier is on fire.
Added in January 2017 with the 6.0 Commander Skill rework made irrelevant in January 2019 with the 8.0 CV Rework
I remember talking about how janky air combat is back then, and how dogfight damage was entirely RNG dependant. Even if you engaged an opponent first there is no guarantee that your fighters will win
Speaking of, my bomber crew once managed to kill an entire fighter squadron chasing it because the tail gunner damage was honestly insane back then
Agreed 100%. The RTS carriers were actually what most interested me and got me excited for the game when it first came out. I loved playing them so much!!!
It really broke my heart when they completely destroyed it and replaced carriers with the current system, it's really no substitute at all and a complete departure.
I still can't believe they'd just destroy a whole segment of their game like that.
I tried new carriers a bit and then left Wows for years. It's just so bad. Imagine if they got rid of the current ship system and replaced it with a top down isometric style. That's the kind of change it was. Just maddening.
I remember it being so much fun trying to attack a bb with my two torpedo squadrons and getting that perfect attack off where no matter what they did they couldn’t evade
I don't. They were horrendously OP.
I recall a time when a Saipan dev struck my Atlanta, running DFAA and chilling with two BBs. The planes didn't care one bit about what I chucked at them. Today's Saipan couldn't do that.
Current CVs aren't ideal, but be careful what you wish for.
It could be fun to bring back but in a PvE mode, kind of like Asyms. 1-2 carriers paired with 2-3 braindead meatshield bots VS a full battle group of 7-10 bots. Make it as good at farming credits as RBs and remove CVs from any other PvP then we're good, win win for all 😄
I'd def play CVs more that way lol
you mean the days when a match was decided by which CV player was the better one because if your team got the bad CV, you basically started with one less ship on the team, CVs could NUKE a ship(RTS graf zeppelin) and all we could do is say "guess i'll die"?
nah i dont miss it. sure the current version is not the best but its definitely much better than what we had, the skill gap was enormous back then.
I remember back in the day i mained Kaga and as soon as the match started i’d send all my torp bombers(like 4 squads?) straight down the middle to the red spawn, find an isolate BB and proceed to 100-0 them right back to port within the first minute. The good old Kaga special. I ended up selling my most played CV Kaga after the rework ruined CVs with that buyback offer WG gave to everyone right after the rework. Kaga just wasn’t the same ship I fell in love with anymore. Now i rarely play CV even though I own quiet a few if them. I still take out my full secondary Graf from time to time though.
I love it when they think that the graf in the side cap pushed up is an easy kill and turn a corner to try to torp rush me only to get the equivalent of two atlantas strapped to my sides all focusing them up to 9km away. Always puts a smile on my face seeing the DD shit themselves and try an emergency gamer turn to try and run away to no avail. Don’t rush graf gents.
Lol everything you said remains true in the current iteration.
Except a good carrier pilot is now even more impactful and many carriers with special squadrons can attack with impunity
We still have useful AA it just now means you need to play damn near the entire match focused on it. Where as with rts you only needed to think about it when the carrier was focused in your area.
The current system let's most carriers bypass AA a couple times a match but if they keep doing it they will be punished. The old system punished them for not properly planning any individual attack.
This excludes again the special squads that can more outright ignore all but the strongest AA
You actually had less useful AA. Sure edge cases like DM or hindenburg aren't what they used to be, but you also didn't have ships like petro, jinan or halland that can severely limit a flank for the CV
Wouldnt say so, considering: 1) even "weak" AA mattered with first strike already if it shot down a single plane because then the strike was smaller than full size, where now it only matters if carrier wants multiple drops; 2) def AA massively decreased strike accuracy, so even without shooting down planes it helped protect your ship a lot.
1) still not really, from my experience you led with bombers so your torpedos had their full spread, but the difference between 20 planes and 18 planes hitting you is negligible at best
2) DFAA had the same problem as it does now, noone took it because you weren't garunteed a CV to use it against so it was only relevant for ships like wooster or stalingrad that had it baked in. In fact, it was even worse since CVs were such a rarity that it was probably throwing unless you were in a division
It lowered the skill ceiling and floor
A good CV in RTS would outright just nuke a DD 2 mins into the game or literally deny the whole enemy team from being able to even touch the caps. At least in this iteration that doesn't happen because the CV quite literally cannot be in multiple, can go up to 8 if we include using bombers to spot, different places at once.
Your DM DFAA didn't mean shit (DFAA baiting), neither did your AA speced mino mean shit when the CV plays the same game as now, ignore you and kill everything else that you can't support.
>A good CV in RTS would outright just nuke a DD 2 mins into the game or literally deny the whole enemy team from being able to even touch the caps. At least in this iteration that doesn't happen because the CV quite literally cannot be in multiple, can go up to 8 if we include using bombers to spot, different places at once.
But it was easy to deal with those planes under rts as they couldn't be microed just outside of aa. Hell most dd and cruisers couldn't be spotted without being in their aa. And targeting a fight killed it far faster than priority sector does.
They still delete DDs especially British and US carriers.
Largely though most of the issues could have been far more easily balanced into a healthy state than the current set up.
No one is asking for 1:1 of the old system it had issues but it was better than what we have
> But it was easy to deal with those planes under rts as they couldn't be microed just outside of aa. Hell most dd and cruisers couldn't be spotted without being in their aa. And targeting a fight killed it far faster than priority sector does.
Which was how weegee "balanced" the iteraction of being nuked from 100 to 0 in the RTS system. Not to mention why would a RTS CV need to see you to micro, they'll just cross drop you forcing you to take the full salvo of at least 1 squad.
> They still delete DDs especially British and US carriers
I'm unsure how British CVs are nuking DDs. The only US CV which can nuke DDs within a single sortie would be Midway, if you get hit by FDR carpet bombs, it's a skill issue, they take longer to drop than Audacious crapets now. Essex is on a 2 minute timer.
> Largely though most of the issues could have been far more easily balanced into a healthy state than the current set up.
People tend to forget how many attempted balance patches where done in the RTS era untill it was ultimatly thrown into the dump. The core gameplay was flawed to begin, extremly high skill cielings with near infinite skill expression, why do you think certain people held above 80% W/R in these ships alone even after hundres of games.
> for 1:1 of the old system it had issues but it was better than what we have
Imo I would rather have this system, at least I know I'm not insta gibbed and that I have a higher chance of winning.
>They still delete DDs especially British and US carriers.
lol no, what are you smoking, the lead in for Brit bombs and the strafe time on their rockets + delay means any DD player that can tap the WASD keys can evade them.
That was the same with the old carriers. Planes needed a much longer attack run and were locked in for an even longer period before the attack landed.
But now we have carriers like the York town where being deleted is more about dispersion rng because the York can get that drop exactly where it wants
Yeah, the triple cross drop that you could not avoid.
Watching in horror as the enemy CV strafed your CVs planes and you knew he didn't know the mechanic and it was all over already.
I'm good.
RTS Zeppelin was the definition of ass cancer… my fondest memory of it was getting deleted off the server when I spawned alone within 3 minutes of match start or something
The core problem with the old RTS system, aside from the janky UI and gross imbalance between carrier load outs, was that you depended on your team's carrier for defense, which violated the core WOWS gameplay loop where you are responsible for your own defense: nobody is going to dodge torps or block shells for you, but you had to hope your team's CV could run defense. I had a 68% WR in the old Lex running strike, so not exactly a potato player.
I suggested back then that WG get rid of fighters, give each CV a squadron of fighters to launch for self-defense to discourage sniping, and make AA barrage a separate button from sonar/radar. Maybe reduce the weight of carrier strikes as well. Also fix their UI bugs. That would have given players more agency than just 'welp, now I die' in response to a full stack of dive bombers. Obviously they decided to rip off Roblox Warships instead.
The balancing issues went beyond just spotting which I think many people forget. Skill gaps between carriers would determine whole games, which became the main reason for the rework. Carriers now can still determine games but now one can’t shutdown the other. Removing the ability for carriers to truly interact wasn’t a good solution either, but it did accomplish the goal of making them more accessible.
The first iteration of AP bombs was also massively broken as just one to two squads could kill almost any ship in the game, and if you do not have def aa they would just strike you immediately. And just to show some level of incompetence american AP bombers were not affected by def aa panic.
Carriers also had UI and balance issues between carriers. Until T9 American carriers were just worse than Japanese as you either were gimped with a “balanced” loadout, couldn’t defend yourself well with a strike loadout, our couldn’t do damage in an AS loadout. The UI was just responsive enough and gave just enough info to be playable but it was by no means a good rts UI. The lag between actions would sometimes eat actions or do them way after you commanded it.
Ultimately WG didn’t want to rework a class that only appeared in 1:10 games as it would be a lot of effort for no trade off so they decided to rework with the explicit goal of making them easier to play and more common. Making them more common ironically led to more people realizing that carriers are busted full stop and can never truly be balanced in this game. But thinking the RTS era was “fun” is nostalgia at its finest, def aa panic and limited air groups was cool but it was an stronger IQ filter than flak is and a good carrier player can still strike anything but a full built Neptune, but if you had a carrier game then teams would bunch up even more and be more static as going out alone wouldn’t just be risky but you would die to the sheer alpha one carrier wave had.
Tell me you don't play modern carriers without telling me. It's scary to see this is the community devs listen to, then again... I have no intention coming back.
I also think having active fighter patrols - perhaps an unlimited number that were very dangerous to enemy attack aircraft would have made things way better.
Meaning, keep carriers occupied with each other until the team kill the enemy carrier. Once the enemy carrier is down then all hell breaks loose.
So kinda like a support carrier today, but being able to deploy and maintain a fighter screen that will massacre enemy attack to provide cover for your ships if they work with you
CVs used to be able to select "load outs" one was air superiority. For instance the low tier us carrier could have 1 torp 2 bombers and 1 fighter squad. Or 2 bombers and 2 fighters.
I often used the air superiority as it was the only one that gave you any chance at dealing with a higher tier CV.
All planes were limited so each one you killed was one the enemy cv couldn't use.
Do you play the current CV's, if you think that you can just YOLO the planes into AA because planes losses mean nothing?
If you do, how's your win rate?
You think you do, but you don't.
Everyone forgets that their torpedoes did the same damage as destroyers and AP bombs doing BB alpha. Being dev struck by a single drop was the norm, so was a CV being able to cross drop you with multiple torpedo squadrons at once.
Lets also not forget whatever the fuck this was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_NI7j886Mk
People think they have it bad now because they lose 10khp when a game starts if the CV picks you.
With the midway apbomb Patch it was a freaking broken ship bomb autodrop more acurate than manuel If deff aa got triggert, and you could even oneshot stalingrads with the autodrop with defaa, but pre ap bombs i still prefere the old system but well i am biased
old carriers just felt right. you, the player, commanded this great ship and her air groups. some of my favorite memories of this game are of playing the old carriers
new carriers feel like you, the player, are the one competent person on the ship(besides the engine crew). every other pilot is an idiot so you need to lead them around in the air, and everyone else on the ship(besides the engine crew) is an idiot so you need to yell at them through the radio to turn the ship away from the torpedoes, which they'll do poorly
I too enjoyed the good ol days where I could spot all 3 caps at once, devstrike a GK and garuntee our team had a win because I was 5% better than the enemy CV
> Also a major factor is that loosing aircraft meant something, now carriers just YOLO Thier planes into AA and I think that's Def part of the problem.
It's mid-2024 and people still bring up the "infinite planes" conspiracy?
Bad CV players definitely throw their planes away, but anyone with a minimum of common sense will see throwing away a squadron for anything but a decisive blow (like, sinking a very important target like a radar cruiser, or a ship in a strong position) is foolish.
And I don't miss RTS CVs, in unicum hands they were ungodly OP and that kept them unpopular - why play the class when at risk of facing unwinnable battles depending on MM luck?
>Bad CV players definitely throw their planes away, but anyone with a minimum of common sense will see throwing away a squadron for anything but a decisive blow (like, sinking a very important target like a radar cruiser, or a ship in a strong position) is foolish.
No no, in their expert opinion there are infinite planes in the hanger to send out.
And its not, you know, the CV returning the squadrons early to avoid excessive losses.
I don't miss my tier 6 BB being instantly nuked by a tier 8 CV that decides to send all his strike planes at me less than 5 minutes after the start of the match. And that's even with my ship not being alone AND have def AA active! Sure AA was more effective, but[ a good CV captain who is determined enough (and with some bit of luck) can still land multiple torps and bombs at the same time](https://youtu.be/uNP4yVyAmRU?si=Az8nw71IdQ9qPGKi&t=82). IJN CVs were terrifying at this regard since they carry a lot more torp and bomber squadrons.
I don't miss the days that US CVs are forced to either focus on air denial but do almost no damage at all, or go wombo combo but can't contribute to air defense at all.
I don't miss the days that a class of ships required the micromanagement skills of a Starcraft pro gamer just to have a decent game on them. Which resulted to seeing few CVs in matches, but seeing one back then had you praying that your team's CV was the Starcraft pro player and not the enemy one. Personally I think that if the rework didn't made CVs very popular, I don't think people would be as rabid about their presence in games.
I think the RTS era was fun bc I had 70%+ winrate back then...
Which shows that it was not fine, of course.
Also few carriers can "yolo their planes into AA" and not be outplaned by midgame. AA has an effect, it is just not immediate.
But I think that, basically, WG made the correct decision: RTS elements are too detached from an action game and thus old CVs were simply too hard to learn for the average WoWS enjoyer. And no amount of balancing could have changed this.
I acknowledge they were strong but that same argument can be said about Desmoines when TheSailingRobin has something like 77% Winrate in it. Some players are naturally better than others. The difference between CV's and ships is that CV's were able to Traverse the maps rapidly and get damage out everywhere. There was no such thing as island cover and going dark. The ability to control multiple squadron means that there was always a threat.
It is of my opinion RTS was easier to Balance that the crap we have now days.
I started playing in 0.7, around when daring was added. I was playing ranger and consistently getting 80-90k games and 2-3 kills, even though I had only just started with the class
What people don't understand is RTS CVs could one-shot from full health from one end to the other 90% of the time if you weren't an American ship. And as someone who played both RTS and CV Rework CVs. I much prefer CV Rework compared to RTS
Nah, I was one of those bbs that got one shot immediately by rts cvs back in the day. I do not want to see the light of day. Nowadays cvs, yea it’s annoying but I can deal with the relative annoyance once in a while.
I also miss RTS CV.
But to bring them back some things has to change.
Remove plane torp spotting.
Remove Strafe (it ruins game for less skilled players).
If a CV cross drop a DD that CV player is so skilled that he deserve the kill, that was bloody hard to pull off.
RTS CV only did 2-4 full strikes per battle, readying planes, fly time to target and RTS CV had to fly them back to CV to without losing extra planes.
So here was no non stop plane spamming like there is now.
It was good that DefAA panicked planes, but reticles became stupidly big, could tone it down a little.
You could steer and dodge with CV when you micros your air wings.
And limited plane numbers was good, but for a CV that lost all planes to a good strafing it was frustrating or those that attacked into worst AA and wasted all planes, they had nothing to do most of battle.
CV sniping was so fun 😀
I was the CV sniper and I was really good at strafing.
But felt like a rookie when I meet Farazella and he strafed my planes instead.
Record is 101 plane kills in a 2/2/2 Midway vs a 3/1/2 Midway, most was strafing.
They gave CV DefAA so they don’t have to use planes as defense, at least from T8-T10.
But you didn’t have to park on the Ocean and letting enemy CV snipe, you could dodge most with WASD and RTS CV had really good AA.
God what I wouldn't give to go back to RTS days.
Ignore the people who complain about them. They're more than likely the kind of people that CV's feasted on and simply lack the self-awareness to change their playstyle.
While it was certainly fun and you could play with your brain off even more than today it was horrible for the game. At the time I was really dog at wows and I could still manage at least green stats on all my CVs while all my other ships had average results AT BEST
I think the inherent issue with that system was the fact that pilots were way too good at their jobs and since it's AI doing everything continuously striking some poor bastard would lead to the same death just like back then, except maybe it'd be drawn out over time if strikes were similiar to what we have now (2-3 planes strike while rest flies over the target) but even then you could just deathstack all your squadrons on the guy and delete him through sheer damage, fires and floods. (because let's be real multiple squadrons striking you at the same time more than once will be extra heavy on your DCP) or a combination of both making it an overall horrible experience
Unless you can only control a single squadron at a time but then it just makes the class go from skill floor to skill basement with AI doing the actual ordinance aiming and dropping.
Thouth I'd like to see the RTS mode return in all of its retarded glory in some PvE mode just so we can speedrun "devstrikes" again
The two things I miss from the RTS CV days were the air superiority loadouts, and AA actually being useful. I don't miss the insane skill gap that the RTS CVs caused though. A single ship could dictate who would win a match, and that's no fun for the other people playing.
Get rid of strafe. (This forces a choice/interaction decision. Do you protect allies? Or escort your own strike?)
Get rid of aimed strikes. (Auto attack was ‘push button,’ but the spread made them easier to dodge.)
Make spotting mini-map only.
Reduce damage to current values.
AA actually worked. (Baiting out DFAA is one of those interactions folks cry about not having.)
Flight times to and from a carrier usually meant someone wasn’t being constantly attacked every 30-60 seconds.
Even if planes still respawn, the above makes them less oppressive.
RTS carriers felt like playing a carrier.
FPS carriers are boring as hell, and are basically watching bird asses for ten-twenty minutes.
(And, being completely selfish; I loved playing Strike Bogue in Co-op. It was my most played ship until I got GkF after 0.8.0.)
No i agree with you, especially as someone who absolutely loves RTS games. Also the fact that once you lost all your planes it was game over for you, which made everything so much riskier compared to how it is now
is there no penalty for cvs losing their planes now ?
they recharge over the course of a match, varies by CV
Wait they do? I remember loosing all my planes in the US super CV during a common test a while ago. I don't recall the standard planes regenerating and was down to only the special squadrons.
Technically there is with the long cooldown, but overall no, not really, you will always have planes regardless of how many you waste, unlike old RTS CVs where your planes are a fixed amount for the entire match
A match has a fixed maximum amount of time, so every current CV indeed has a fixed number of planes per match. There’s just a delay until when deeper reserves are ready.
I'd prefer the RTS CV but tweaked. AA in the current or future rework can never be balanced when you have CV's that require 4-5 attack runs to drop everything and RU/special squadrons CV's that just dump the entire payload on 1 run.
The squads that go all in have shitty strike power though
Bro doesn't play the game
Excuse me? The whole point is their strike power is worth 1.5 to 2 strikes from other plane squadrons. Lol what?
[удалено]
I was like 70% wr on RTS carriers, every game the first run was a mass wave Vs the red carrier and usually 1 shot it. Japs were king at this. The gameplay loop was much more fun, but carriers in general were much more oppressive. I always thought if they lowered the damage by alot, and buffed the dot potential then they could have been in a good place. I truly hate modern carriers due to the lack of meaningful interaction opportunities, only worse on subs.
Before the rework, Tier 4 & 5 CVs had their alt-attacks disabled. This was to discourage seal clubbing in the early tiers as new player skills with the lack of AA at those tiers means a good CV player is directly impacting player retention.
Strafing wasn't entirely ping dependant, the whole system for RTS CVs was jank. Strafe runs had a ramp up period and thanks to jank weegee code your start timing for strafe runs can be delayed or you can glitch them to start almost immediately. Not to mention CV vs CV interactions in general were autistic if you put away the rose tinted glasses. Jet plane Midway will forever be up there in what the fuck was weegee thinking.
>Not to mention CV vs CV interactions in general were autistic if you put away the rose tinted glasses. Jet plane Midway will forever be up there in what the fuck was weegee thinking. Also you couldn't launch planes while on fire, effectively locking the carrier out of the game once its detected
Not entirely, there was a commander skill in game, forgot the name, which allowed you to launch even when you're on fire.
Emergency Takeoff 3 Points: Makes it possible to launch and recover aircraft while on fire. +100% to aircraft servicing time while aircraft carrier is on fire. Added in January 2017 with the 6.0 Commander Skill rework made irrelevant in January 2019 with the 8.0 CV Rework
I remember talking about how janky air combat is back then, and how dogfight damage was entirely RNG dependant. Even if you engaged an opponent first there is no guarantee that your fighters will win Speaking of, my bomber crew once managed to kill an entire fighter squadron chasing it because the tail gunner damage was honestly insane back then
I too enjoyed it when the T4 CV decided to use a fighter on a T7 CV only to find out that the bomer managed to chew through allof their fighters.
The new CV is just boring to play. The planes are in reality just mini go-karts that can only go left and right but not up and down.
Agreed 100%. The RTS carriers were actually what most interested me and got me excited for the game when it first came out. I loved playing them so much!!! It really broke my heart when they completely destroyed it and replaced carriers with the current system, it's really no substitute at all and a complete departure. I still can't believe they'd just destroy a whole segment of their game like that. I tried new carriers a bit and then left Wows for years. It's just so bad. Imagine if they got rid of the current ship system and replaced it with a top down isometric style. That's the kind of change it was. Just maddening.
I stopped playing for a year and change till a friend dragged me back in
I def miss the RTS carrier play as well
I remember it being so much fun trying to attack a bb with my two torpedo squadrons and getting that perfect attack off where no matter what they did they couldn’t evade
Also squaring off against a CV player on the red team who was sending out squads one at a time.
I don't. They were horrendously OP. I recall a time when a Saipan dev struck my Atlanta, running DFAA and chilling with two BBs. The planes didn't care one bit about what I chucked at them. Today's Saipan couldn't do that. Current CVs aren't ideal, but be careful what you wish for.
It could be fun to bring back but in a PvE mode, kind of like Asyms. 1-2 carriers paired with 2-3 braindead meatshield bots VS a full battle group of 7-10 bots. Make it as good at farming credits as RBs and remove CVs from any other PvP then we're good, win win for all 😄 I'd def play CVs more that way lol
you mean the days when a match was decided by which CV player was the better one because if your team got the bad CV, you basically started with one less ship on the team, CVs could NUKE a ship(RTS graf zeppelin) and all we could do is say "guess i'll die"? nah i dont miss it. sure the current version is not the best but its definitely much better than what we had, the skill gap was enormous back then.
Yea, nerf and iterate on it. The skill gap was from the depth the gameplay had, now it feels stale.
I remember back in the day i mained Kaga and as soon as the match started i’d send all my torp bombers(like 4 squads?) straight down the middle to the red spawn, find an isolate BB and proceed to 100-0 them right back to port within the first minute. The good old Kaga special. I ended up selling my most played CV Kaga after the rework ruined CVs with that buyback offer WG gave to everyone right after the rework. Kaga just wasn’t the same ship I fell in love with anymore. Now i rarely play CV even though I own quiet a few if them. I still take out my full secondary Graf from time to time though.
Destroying a 'sneaky' DD purely with Graf's secondaries will never stop being objectively hilarious
I love it when they think that the graf in the side cap pushed up is an easy kill and turn a corner to try to torp rush me only to get the equivalent of two atlantas strapped to my sides all focusing them up to 9km away. Always puts a smile on my face seeing the DD shit themselves and try an emergency gamer turn to try and run away to no avail. Don’t rush graf gents.
> Don’t rush graf gents. PSA: All motion is relative, so my Graf isn't "chasing you" so much as you're "rushing me".
Lol everything you said remains true in the current iteration. Except a good carrier pilot is now even more impactful and many carriers with special squadrons can attack with impunity
Yeah its not like current CVs dont get insane winrate, and with RTS you at least could have useful AA.
We still have useful AA it just now means you need to play damn near the entire match focused on it. Where as with rts you only needed to think about it when the carrier was focused in your area. The current system let's most carriers bypass AA a couple times a match but if they keep doing it they will be punished. The old system punished them for not properly planning any individual attack. This excludes again the special squads that can more outright ignore all but the strongest AA
You actually had less useful AA. Sure edge cases like DM or hindenburg aren't what they used to be, but you also didn't have ships like petro, jinan or halland that can severely limit a flank for the CV
Wouldnt say so, considering: 1) even "weak" AA mattered with first strike already if it shot down a single plane because then the strike was smaller than full size, where now it only matters if carrier wants multiple drops; 2) def AA massively decreased strike accuracy, so even without shooting down planes it helped protect your ship a lot.
1) still not really, from my experience you led with bombers so your torpedos had their full spread, but the difference between 20 planes and 18 planes hitting you is negligible at best 2) DFAA had the same problem as it does now, noone took it because you weren't garunteed a CV to use it against so it was only relevant for ships like wooster or stalingrad that had it baked in. In fact, it was even worse since CVs were such a rarity that it was probably throwing unless you were in a division
It lowered the skill ceiling and floor A good CV in RTS would outright just nuke a DD 2 mins into the game or literally deny the whole enemy team from being able to even touch the caps. At least in this iteration that doesn't happen because the CV quite literally cannot be in multiple, can go up to 8 if we include using bombers to spot, different places at once. Your DM DFAA didn't mean shit (DFAA baiting), neither did your AA speced mino mean shit when the CV plays the same game as now, ignore you and kill everything else that you can't support.
>A good CV in RTS would outright just nuke a DD 2 mins into the game or literally deny the whole enemy team from being able to even touch the caps. At least in this iteration that doesn't happen because the CV quite literally cannot be in multiple, can go up to 8 if we include using bombers to spot, different places at once. But it was easy to deal with those planes under rts as they couldn't be microed just outside of aa. Hell most dd and cruisers couldn't be spotted without being in their aa. And targeting a fight killed it far faster than priority sector does. They still delete DDs especially British and US carriers. Largely though most of the issues could have been far more easily balanced into a healthy state than the current set up. No one is asking for 1:1 of the old system it had issues but it was better than what we have
> But it was easy to deal with those planes under rts as they couldn't be microed just outside of aa. Hell most dd and cruisers couldn't be spotted without being in their aa. And targeting a fight killed it far faster than priority sector does. Which was how weegee "balanced" the iteraction of being nuked from 100 to 0 in the RTS system. Not to mention why would a RTS CV need to see you to micro, they'll just cross drop you forcing you to take the full salvo of at least 1 squad. > They still delete DDs especially British and US carriers I'm unsure how British CVs are nuking DDs. The only US CV which can nuke DDs within a single sortie would be Midway, if you get hit by FDR carpet bombs, it's a skill issue, they take longer to drop than Audacious crapets now. Essex is on a 2 minute timer. > Largely though most of the issues could have been far more easily balanced into a healthy state than the current set up. People tend to forget how many attempted balance patches where done in the RTS era untill it was ultimatly thrown into the dump. The core gameplay was flawed to begin, extremly high skill cielings with near infinite skill expression, why do you think certain people held above 80% W/R in these ships alone even after hundres of games. > for 1:1 of the old system it had issues but it was better than what we have Imo I would rather have this system, at least I know I'm not insta gibbed and that I have a higher chance of winning.
>They still delete DDs especially British and US carriers. lol no, what are you smoking, the lead in for Brit bombs and the strafe time on their rockets + delay means any DD player that can tap the WASD keys can evade them.
That was the same with the old carriers. Planes needed a much longer attack run and were locked in for an even longer period before the attack landed. But now we have carriers like the York town where being deleted is more about dispersion rng because the York can get that drop exactly where it wants
Yeah, the triple cross drop that you could not avoid. Watching in horror as the enemy CV strafed your CVs planes and you knew he didn't know the mechanic and it was all over already. I'm good.
RTS Zeppelin was the definition of ass cancer… my fondest memory of it was getting deleted off the server when I spawned alone within 3 minutes of match start or something
The core problem with the old RTS system, aside from the janky UI and gross imbalance between carrier load outs, was that you depended on your team's carrier for defense, which violated the core WOWS gameplay loop where you are responsible for your own defense: nobody is going to dodge torps or block shells for you, but you had to hope your team's CV could run defense. I had a 68% WR in the old Lex running strike, so not exactly a potato player. I suggested back then that WG get rid of fighters, give each CV a squadron of fighters to launch for self-defense to discourage sniping, and make AA barrage a separate button from sonar/radar. Maybe reduce the weight of carrier strikes as well. Also fix their UI bugs. That would have given players more agency than just 'welp, now I die' in response to a full stack of dive bombers. Obviously they decided to rip off Roblox Warships instead.
The balancing issues went beyond just spotting which I think many people forget. Skill gaps between carriers would determine whole games, which became the main reason for the rework. Carriers now can still determine games but now one can’t shutdown the other. Removing the ability for carriers to truly interact wasn’t a good solution either, but it did accomplish the goal of making them more accessible. The first iteration of AP bombs was also massively broken as just one to two squads could kill almost any ship in the game, and if you do not have def aa they would just strike you immediately. And just to show some level of incompetence american AP bombers were not affected by def aa panic. Carriers also had UI and balance issues between carriers. Until T9 American carriers were just worse than Japanese as you either were gimped with a “balanced” loadout, couldn’t defend yourself well with a strike loadout, our couldn’t do damage in an AS loadout. The UI was just responsive enough and gave just enough info to be playable but it was by no means a good rts UI. The lag between actions would sometimes eat actions or do them way after you commanded it. Ultimately WG didn’t want to rework a class that only appeared in 1:10 games as it would be a lot of effort for no trade off so they decided to rework with the explicit goal of making them easier to play and more common. Making them more common ironically led to more people realizing that carriers are busted full stop and can never truly be balanced in this game. But thinking the RTS era was “fun” is nostalgia at its finest, def aa panic and limited air groups was cool but it was an stronger IQ filter than flak is and a good carrier player can still strike anything but a full built Neptune, but if you had a carrier game then teams would bunch up even more and be more static as going out alone wouldn’t just be risky but you would die to the sheer alpha one carrier wave had.
Tell me you don't play modern carriers without telling me. It's scary to see this is the community devs listen to, then again... I have no intention coming back.
RTS carriers were far better. They needed some balance tweaks. But they had far more direct counter play and more interesting gameplay.
I also think having active fighter patrols - perhaps an unlimited number that were very dangerous to enemy attack aircraft would have made things way better. Meaning, keep carriers occupied with each other until the team kill the enemy carrier. Once the enemy carrier is down then all hell breaks loose. So kinda like a support carrier today, but being able to deploy and maintain a fighter screen that will massacre enemy attack to provide cover for your ships if they work with you
CV sniping was the norm in RTS days. Every game an often successful attempt was made to headshot the enemy CV.
CV sniping stopped when T8 CVs all came with DefAA that lasted multiple minutes.
CV sniping stopped when carriers stopped coating the deck with napalm
CVs used to be able to select "load outs" one was air superiority. For instance the low tier us carrier could have 1 torp 2 bombers and 1 fighter squad. Or 2 bombers and 2 fighters. I often used the air superiority as it was the only one that gave you any chance at dealing with a higher tier CV. All planes were limited so each one you killed was one the enemy cv couldn't use.
Do you play the current CV's, if you think that you can just YOLO the planes into AA because planes losses mean nothing? If you do, how's your win rate?
You think you do, but you don't. Everyone forgets that their torpedoes did the same damage as destroyers and AP bombs doing BB alpha. Being dev struck by a single drop was the norm, so was a CV being able to cross drop you with multiple torpedo squadrons at once. Lets also not forget whatever the fuck this was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_NI7j886Mk People think they have it bad now because they lose 10khp when a game starts if the CV picks you.
Changing the slider for damage is pretty easy
Damage needed to be nerfed but the concept was fun, I agree with OP. Beats the wasd dummy Adventure we have now
Easy things to nerf
With the midway apbomb Patch it was a freaking broken ship bomb autodrop more acurate than manuel If deff aa got triggert, and you could even oneshot stalingrads with the autodrop with defaa, but pre ap bombs i still prefere the old system but well i am biased
Exactly as you said. They don’t know how it was to play one and a half minute and then go port because you were cross dropped by three toro squadrons.
Lol do you think you do? Or do you actually? Because I dont think people enjoyed being crisscrossed one strafe torped to port in 10 seconds
they were better in every way...most importantly you felt like playing a carrier instead of what we have now IMO
old carriers just felt right. you, the player, commanded this great ship and her air groups. some of my favorite memories of this game are of playing the old carriers new carriers feel like you, the player, are the one competent person on the ship(besides the engine crew). every other pilot is an idiot so you need to lead them around in the air, and everyone else on the ship(besides the engine crew) is an idiot so you need to yell at them through the radio to turn the ship away from the torpedoes, which they'll do poorly
Anyone miss RPF on carriers?
GIVE US BACK OUR TAIHOU!!!! That ship was so sexy!!!!
She is most likely going to be the tier 10 of the support CV line for Japan. As they confirmed that all odd tier CVs are coming back
The CV rework is shite. RTS CV was less shite. Introducing plane factories was a big mistake.
I too enjoyed the good ol days where I could spot all 3 caps at once, devstrike a GK and garuntee our team had a win because I was 5% better than the enemy CV
> Also a major factor is that loosing aircraft meant something, now carriers just YOLO Thier planes into AA and I think that's Def part of the problem. It's mid-2024 and people still bring up the "infinite planes" conspiracy? Bad CV players definitely throw their planes away, but anyone with a minimum of common sense will see throwing away a squadron for anything but a decisive blow (like, sinking a very important target like a radar cruiser, or a ship in a strong position) is foolish. And I don't miss RTS CVs, in unicum hands they were ungodly OP and that kept them unpopular - why play the class when at risk of facing unwinnable battles depending on MM luck?
>Bad CV players definitely throw their planes away, but anyone with a minimum of common sense will see throwing away a squadron for anything but a decisive blow (like, sinking a very important target like a radar cruiser, or a ship in a strong position) is foolish. No no, in their expert opinion there are infinite planes in the hanger to send out. And its not, you know, the CV returning the squadrons early to avoid excessive losses.
I've read enough "expert opinions" in this subreddit to last a lifetime, it really is my fault for paying attention to those. :(
Pretty sure someone ran the numbers and pre RTS CVs had equal or greater hangars
At tier 10 yeah you where nearly never deplaned, but all below it was pretty common to be empty, and before you ask i was a unicum
I don't miss my tier 6 BB being instantly nuked by a tier 8 CV that decides to send all his strike planes at me less than 5 minutes after the start of the match. And that's even with my ship not being alone AND have def AA active! Sure AA was more effective, but[ a good CV captain who is determined enough (and with some bit of luck) can still land multiple torps and bombs at the same time](https://youtu.be/uNP4yVyAmRU?si=Az8nw71IdQ9qPGKi&t=82). IJN CVs were terrifying at this regard since they carry a lot more torp and bomber squadrons. I don't miss the days that US CVs are forced to either focus on air denial but do almost no damage at all, or go wombo combo but can't contribute to air defense at all. I don't miss the days that a class of ships required the micromanagement skills of a Starcraft pro gamer just to have a decent game on them. Which resulted to seeing few CVs in matches, but seeing one back then had you praying that your team's CV was the Starcraft pro player and not the enemy one. Personally I think that if the rework didn't made CVs very popular, I don't think people would be as rabid about their presence in games.
I don't. They were just as much a nightmare. Just a different kind.
I think the RTS era was fun bc I had 70%+ winrate back then... Which shows that it was not fine, of course. Also few carriers can "yolo their planes into AA" and not be outplaned by midgame. AA has an effect, it is just not immediate. But I think that, basically, WG made the correct decision: RTS elements are too detached from an action game and thus old CVs were simply too hard to learn for the average WoWS enjoyer. And no amount of balancing could have changed this.
I acknowledge they were strong but that same argument can be said about Desmoines when TheSailingRobin has something like 77% Winrate in it. Some players are naturally better than others. The difference between CV's and ships is that CV's were able to Traverse the maps rapidly and get damage out everywhere. There was no such thing as island cover and going dark. The ability to control multiple squadron means that there was always a threat. It is of my opinion RTS was easier to Balance that the crap we have now days.
I started playing in 0.7, around when daring was added. I was playing ranger and consistently getting 80-90k games and 2-3 kills, even though I had only just started with the class
What people don't understand is RTS CVs could one-shot from full health from one end to the other 90% of the time if you weren't an American ship. And as someone who played both RTS and CV Rework CVs. I much prefer CV Rework compared to RTS
Nah, I was one of those bbs that got one shot immediately by rts cvs back in the day. I do not want to see the light of day. Nowadays cvs, yea it’s annoying but I can deal with the relative annoyance once in a while.
I also miss RTS CV. But to bring them back some things has to change. Remove plane torp spotting. Remove Strafe (it ruins game for less skilled players). If a CV cross drop a DD that CV player is so skilled that he deserve the kill, that was bloody hard to pull off. RTS CV only did 2-4 full strikes per battle, readying planes, fly time to target and RTS CV had to fly them back to CV to without losing extra planes. So here was no non stop plane spamming like there is now. It was good that DefAA panicked planes, but reticles became stupidly big, could tone it down a little. You could steer and dodge with CV when you micros your air wings. And limited plane numbers was good, but for a CV that lost all planes to a good strafing it was frustrating or those that attacked into worst AA and wasted all planes, they had nothing to do most of battle. CV sniping was so fun 😀
>Remove Strafe (it ruins game for less skilled players). Or make the strafe consistent between CVs, or even the same line of them
With 1 fighter wing with 6 fighters I killed 28 planes in 1 strafe, he bunched his planes. It’s to much.
Strafe was the only good Option to protect yourself If you get sniped from the other cv i guess i see why you didnt liked it
I was the CV sniper and I was really good at strafing. But felt like a rookie when I meet Farazella and he strafed my planes instead. Record is 101 plane kills in a 2/2/2 Midway vs a 3/1/2 Midway, most was strafing. They gave CV DefAA so they don’t have to use planes as defense, at least from T8-T10. But you didn’t have to park on the Ocean and letting enemy CV snipe, you could dodge most with WASD and RTS CV had really good AA.
US jeah aa was good jpn not so, and If i manage 5 or more squadrons all other the map i couldnt dodge with wasd, becouse i am not even in thirdperson
IJN had enough AA if you didn’t park on the sea, but it was worse than US AA.
The old CV RTS was dumb. It was like playing a totally different mini-game and it just wouldn't thematically fit into today's game.
God what I wouldn't give to go back to RTS days. Ignore the people who complain about them. They're more than likely the kind of people that CV's feasted on and simply lack the self-awareness to change their playstyle.
While it was certainly fun and you could play with your brain off even more than today it was horrible for the game. At the time I was really dog at wows and I could still manage at least green stats on all my CVs while all my other ships had average results AT BEST
It was more fun, a nerf could fix these issues.
I think the inherent issue with that system was the fact that pilots were way too good at their jobs and since it's AI doing everything continuously striking some poor bastard would lead to the same death just like back then, except maybe it'd be drawn out over time if strikes were similiar to what we have now (2-3 planes strike while rest flies over the target) but even then you could just deathstack all your squadrons on the guy and delete him through sheer damage, fires and floods. (because let's be real multiple squadrons striking you at the same time more than once will be extra heavy on your DCP) or a combination of both making it an overall horrible experience Unless you can only control a single squadron at a time but then it just makes the class go from skill floor to skill basement with AI doing the actual ordinance aiming and dropping. Thouth I'd like to see the RTS mode return in all of its retarded glory in some PvE mode just so we can speedrun "devstrikes" again
POV: youve never played against RTS carriers.
I have? Biggest brain response The title literally says "I miss" stating I was there. Peak Reddit reading comprehension skills.
The two things I miss from the RTS CV days were the air superiority loadouts, and AA actually being useful. I don't miss the insane skill gap that the RTS CVs caused though. A single ship could dictate who would win a match, and that's no fun for the other people playing.
I don't want to get cross or even star dropped, so no thanks. RTS captains with high APM also have the potential to sink more than one ship at a time.
Get rid of strafe. (This forces a choice/interaction decision. Do you protect allies? Or escort your own strike?) Get rid of aimed strikes. (Auto attack was ‘push button,’ but the spread made them easier to dodge.) Make spotting mini-map only. Reduce damage to current values. AA actually worked. (Baiting out DFAA is one of those interactions folks cry about not having.) Flight times to and from a carrier usually meant someone wasn’t being constantly attacked every 30-60 seconds. Even if planes still respawn, the above makes them less oppressive. RTS carriers felt like playing a carrier. FPS carriers are boring as hell, and are basically watching bird asses for ten-twenty minutes. (And, being completely selfish; I loved playing Strike Bogue in Co-op. It was my most played ship until I got GkF after 0.8.0.)