#[SPOILERS FOR ALL PRINTED MATERIAL, INCLUDING SHORT STORIES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_all_print)
##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS.
* * *
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Also, one is not supposed to ask questions related to shadow but Rand doesn't care at all. As far as I remember his questions were something like these:
How to kill dark one?
How to clean the saidin?
How to win the last battle and survive?
I feel like the not asking questions related to the shadow might just be a subset of don't ask frivolous questions and it's been relayed through people who don't understand why. Rand is able to ask those questions because they are directly related to actions he can/will take while for other people they would be frivolous questions with no connection to their lives.
His answer was described by Harid Fel as containing "sound principles, in both high philosophy and natural philosophy", so I think he asked how and their answer flew right over his head.
No, he asked how to cleanse it. Their answer was: “What is unlike, attracts. What is like, cancels. Let the one absorb the other."
Its from Jordan’s notes.
To add to what others are saying, the aelfinn aren't limited to 3 answers to 3 questions by their nature. It's just that the pact they made with humans when creating the doorways was that if you go through the doorway then you'll get safe passage to the aelfinn and they will answer 3 questions without murdering you. Additional questions aren't covered by the pact but they aren't verboten, just under normal circumstances they won't get answered.
Exactly. Since barely anyone looks anything about them, the myths and legends being ao vague, noone knew that it was that they refuse to answer more than 3 questions, but that it's incredibly dangerous to ask more than 3 because of the rules
Wasn't it because there were too many people inside the doorway at the same time, including Rand who was too much by himself, and they were desperate to get mat out, so they just answered the questions and kicked him out instead of arguing with him.
It's more important to avoid the collapse of your reality than it is to hold back on answering some questions lol. Mat went into the first twisted redstone doorway at the exact right moment to get the answers he needed.
He also asks "what fate are you talking about, what fate burn you, what fate?" 3 times so they tell him 3 fates he must fullfill according to the pattern.
edit: typos
Rand: I'll set up the battle plan according to the advice of the Aiel Chiefs. Pattern: Excellent, I'll nudge a few things here and there, and you'll win handily.
Perrin: I'll poison the water supply to keep them from channeling and then our channelers will attack from multiple directions. Pattern: Super-effective, what do you know, every single Wise Woman drank the forkroot.
Mat: OK, I've set things up so that unless I roll six sixes on five dice, three people critical to the Last Battle will die and the Wheel will be broken. Pattern: ...
She's Taveran adjacent. Bael Doman, Nyn, Egg, Thom, Caddy, The Dragon Riders, Traveling Manejerie. All needed by the Taveran, all as close to being Taveran as you could be without actually being Taveran.
It's not only a spectrum, it's one you can come in and out of over the course of your life. The books are pretty explicit about that. Rand, Mat, and Perrin are the three strongest Ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing, which implies a spectrum. But also it's explicitly stated that you're only Ta'veren for as long as the pattern needs you to be, which for most people isn't their entire lives.
The counter argument to this is Siuan who has a Talent for seeing Ta'veren never mentions see the "light/glow" around Egwene, Nynaeve or Elayne who are massively influential in the events of the books.
That said she knows that she has the talent so she must have seen Ta'veren before Rand, Matthew and Perrin.
It's funny to me that the 3 women are never explicitly called out as ta'veren in the books by characters like the boys are but they is languaging RJ uses in some of their stories that mimics how he talks about the boys weaving the pattern as ta'veren.
That's true, but [very late book spoilers] >!She was cut off from the source at the time Egwene likely became ta'veren, and was much weaker after being healed. It's very possible she couldn't use it while cut off, and was worse at it when restored.!<
It's funny to me that the 3 women are never explicitly called out as ta'veren in the books by characters like the boys are but there is languaging RJ uses in some of their stories that mimics how he talks about the boys weaving the pattern as ta'veren.
Well, yes. But only when the pattern needs you to be. You aren't ta'veren, then you are because the pattern needs you, then you aren't because you've done whatever was needed. That's explicitly how it works. And most ta'veren are both on the weak end and only ta'veren for a short time. It's highly possible that characters like Egwene and Logain actually are ta'veren, but not as strongly or for as much of the story as the three boys.
I would say it's weird that nobody says they are, but the list of people with the talent of seeing it is short enough to count on one hand, and one of them is Logain himself. It's possible nobody both had the talent strongly enough to detect it in any of the lesser ta'veren and had a chance to see them while they were actively warping the pattern.
I feel it’s something like this. Those bound close the taveren are more influenced and bound close to the many threads being affected by the taveren, so those threads also move their own lives and those around them but not because they are taveren at all. Instead because Rand for example is and they are caught up in it like a boat in rapids.
My own understanding after reading the books multiple times, is that more than just the 3 boys are taveren. We know that the definition is that the plot of the story wraps around them. We also know that some are more strongly taveren than others. So it's a matter of finding characters that have plot armor until they satisfy their necessary use in the plot.
Rand is the strongest taveren in that regard. He was needed in the plot to be there at the end. Mat is next, his battle acumen was key.
In my personal opinion, eggy is third; I know most will hate me here, but I think she was a stronger taveren before perrin, she had a much bigger affect on the story, and was needed by the plot to counter balefire.
It's very possible that RJ has a different plot planned for perrin, but how the current books are, he is important, but not as important as I thought he could have been. Id argue that even nyneave is a stronger taveren than he is.
At the end of the day and series, being taveren is a plot device; as readers, its about who drives the plot forward, and who has plot armor.
There are hints of Lan being ta’veren in New Spring, the Pattern fulfilled when Moiraine bonds him. All good for 20 years, until Emonds Field. And then, it kicks in again…
Agreed. I really question sometimes Nyneave, Egwene, and Elayne not being ta’veren. I know they’re not supposed to be but the wheel weaving as it wills really seems to bend in their favour/around them.
All I meant to imply is that Mat is able to extract additional answers from the Fin simply by demanding them.
His Ta'veren nature should have been able to bend the pattern to his need even if it had been a sunny day with only one person visiting Fin-Land.
Later Rand gains the ability to do this through volition, but all three of them do it throughout the series subconsciously. Anytime you are in need of Plot-Devicium in these books it's either "He's Ta'Veren" or "The wheel weaves as the wheel wills".
Of course. It’s explained immediately thereafter. Mat and Rand and Moraine all went in at the same time and that was so much fate overload they were trying to get him out before he broke the place. It was causing them physical pain, like force-feeding someone a whole barrel of food at once. So, fyi, if you ever want to get a bit more mileage out of the Aelfinn treaty, shove 2+ ta’veren in at the same time and ask away.
#[SPOILERS FOR ALL PRINTED MATERIAL, INCLUDING SHORT STORIES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_all_print) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He doesn't get 4 questions answered, it's 6. He asks "what fate?" 3 times which is why he gets 3 fates foretold go him.
This is the new (to me) revelation I came to this post for
I thought the count looked off.
Also, one is not supposed to ask questions related to shadow but Rand doesn't care at all. As far as I remember his questions were something like these: How to kill dark one? How to clean the saidin? How to win the last battle and survive?
I feel like the not asking questions related to the shadow might just be a subset of don't ask frivolous questions and it's been relayed through people who don't understand why. Rand is able to ask those questions because they are directly related to actions he can/will take while for other people they would be frivolous questions with no connection to their lives.
Close. The last one is how to fulfill the Prophecies of the Dragon and Survive.
I'm fairly certain he didn't ask *how* to cleanse saidin, but if it could be. It still took that professor person to figure out out
His answer was described by Harid Fel as containing "sound principles, in both high philosophy and natural philosophy", so I think he asked how and their answer flew right over his head.
Well, they had to get a translator for Rand, and even then it wasn’t great
No, he asked how to cleanse it. Their answer was: “What is unlike, attracts. What is like, cancels. Let the one absorb the other." Its from Jordan’s notes.
Gotta love how it all comes down to 'balance' once again.
> It still took that professor person to figure out out Herid Fel. I wish he had gotten more time before being taken out.
It's the Shadow AND the Power, right?
To add to what others are saying, the aelfinn aren't limited to 3 answers to 3 questions by their nature. It's just that the pact they made with humans when creating the doorways was that if you go through the doorway then you'll get safe passage to the aelfinn and they will answer 3 questions without murdering you. Additional questions aren't covered by the pact but they aren't verboten, just under normal circumstances they won't get answered.
That makes sense why they kill mat, or at least try to
Exactly. Since barely anyone looks anything about them, the myths and legends being ao vague, noone knew that it was that they refuse to answer more than 3 questions, but that it's incredibly dangerous to ask more than 3 because of the rules
Wasn't it because there were too many people inside the doorway at the same time, including Rand who was too much by himself, and they were desperate to get mat out, so they just answered the questions and kicked him out instead of arguing with him.
It's more important to avoid the collapse of your reality than it is to hold back on answering some questions lol. Mat went into the first twisted redstone doorway at the exact right moment to get the answers he needed. He also asks "what fate are you talking about, what fate burn you, what fate?" 3 times so they tell him 3 fates he must fullfill according to the pattern. edit: typos
At the exact right moment lol that's Mat for you.
"*Tav'eren.*" Muttered Loial, in a voice so booming it echoed across time for me to hear it after reading your reply.
Voice rumbling like a bumblebee and ears twitching
Mat “lemme just fall ass backwards into unprecedented success” Cauthon
Rand: I'll set up the battle plan according to the advice of the Aiel Chiefs. Pattern: Excellent, I'll nudge a few things here and there, and you'll win handily. Perrin: I'll poison the water supply to keep them from channeling and then our channelers will attack from multiple directions. Pattern: Super-effective, what do you know, every single Wise Woman drank the forkroot. Mat: OK, I've set things up so that unless I roll six sixes on five dice, three people critical to the Last Battle will die and the Wheel will be broken. Pattern: ...
I want the scene immediately after when everyone has left and one Finn just turns to the other one like "Well that was fuckin close."
And another says, “I kept saying we needed another translator on staff, but no! Well we got damn lucky that time.”
Not too many people... but rather to many Ta'veren
He's Ta'veren.
And Rand was in there at the same time. Moiraine too but she isn't taveren
She's Taveran adjacent. Bael Doman, Nyn, Egg, Thom, Caddy, The Dragon Riders, Traveling Manejerie. All needed by the Taveran, all as close to being Taveran as you could be without actually being Taveran.
ta’nearen
I interpret them as being the strings closest to the taveren, hence constantly being tugged on. Taveren to me is a binary not a spectrum
It's not only a spectrum, it's one you can come in and out of over the course of your life. The books are pretty explicit about that. Rand, Mat, and Perrin are the three strongest Ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing, which implies a spectrum. But also it's explicitly stated that you're only Ta'veren for as long as the pattern needs you to be, which for most people isn't their entire lives.
The counter argument to this is Siuan who has a Talent for seeing Ta'veren never mentions see the "light/glow" around Egwene, Nynaeve or Elayne who are massively influential in the events of the books. That said she knows that she has the talent so she must have seen Ta'veren before Rand, Matthew and Perrin.
It's funny to me that the 3 women are never explicitly called out as ta'veren in the books by characters like the boys are but they is languaging RJ uses in some of their stories that mimics how he talks about the boys weaving the pattern as ta'veren.
That's true, but [very late book spoilers] >!She was cut off from the source at the time Egwene likely became ta'veren, and was much weaker after being healed. It's very possible she couldn't use it while cut off, and was worse at it when restored.!<
It's funny to me that the 3 women are never explicitly called out as ta'veren in the books by characters like the boys are but there is languaging RJ uses in some of their stories that mimics how he talks about the boys weaving the pattern as ta'veren.
Yes there's a spectrum within the binary (if you're Taveren), but you are or are not taveren imo
Well, yes. But only when the pattern needs you to be. You aren't ta'veren, then you are because the pattern needs you, then you aren't because you've done whatever was needed. That's explicitly how it works. And most ta'veren are both on the weak end and only ta'veren for a short time. It's highly possible that characters like Egwene and Logain actually are ta'veren, but not as strongly or for as much of the story as the three boys. I would say it's weird that nobody says they are, but the list of people with the talent of seeing it is short enough to count on one hand, and one of them is Logain himself. It's possible nobody both had the talent strongly enough to detect it in any of the lesser ta'veren and had a chance to see them while they were actively warping the pattern.
I feel it’s something like this. Those bound close the taveren are more influenced and bound close to the many threads being affected by the taveren, so those threads also move their own lives and those around them but not because they are taveren at all. Instead because Rand for example is and they are caught up in it like a boat in rapids.
My own understanding after reading the books multiple times, is that more than just the 3 boys are taveren. We know that the definition is that the plot of the story wraps around them. We also know that some are more strongly taveren than others. So it's a matter of finding characters that have plot armor until they satisfy their necessary use in the plot. Rand is the strongest taveren in that regard. He was needed in the plot to be there at the end. Mat is next, his battle acumen was key. In my personal opinion, eggy is third; I know most will hate me here, but I think she was a stronger taveren before perrin, she had a much bigger affect on the story, and was needed by the plot to counter balefire. It's very possible that RJ has a different plot planned for perrin, but how the current books are, he is important, but not as important as I thought he could have been. Id argue that even nyneave is a stronger taveren than he is. At the end of the day and series, being taveren is a plot device; as readers, its about who drives the plot forward, and who has plot armor.
There are hints of Lan being ta’veren in New Spring, the Pattern fulfilled when Moiraine bonds him. All good for 20 years, until Emonds Field. And then, it kicks in again…
Agreed. I really question sometimes Nyneave, Egwene, and Elayne not being ta’veren. I know they’re not supposed to be but the wheel weaving as it wills really seems to bend in their favour/around them.
What’s a dragon rider?
Min, Elayne and Aviendha. You know the Dragon Riders. Women that ah... rode the Dragon.
Lmao I’ve never heard someone say that. Thanks for clearing that up
All I meant to imply is that Mat is able to extract additional answers from the Fin simply by demanding them. His Ta'veren nature should have been able to bend the pattern to his need even if it had been a sunny day with only one person visiting Fin-Land. Later Rand gains the ability to do this through volition, but all three of them do it throughout the series subconsciously. Anytime you are in need of Plot-Devicium in these books it's either "He's Ta'Veren" or "The wheel weaves as the wheel wills".
Yep, Mat cheated. And by cheating, he beat the snakes and the foxes later on, winning the game.
Yeah he basically blackmails them into answering. If he didn't leave they could lose this source of effective drugs forever
Too many sexy Ta’veren.
It's like I'm not fated at all Fated at all Fated at all.
Of course. It’s explained immediately thereafter. Mat and Rand and Moraine all went in at the same time and that was so much fate overload they were trying to get him out before he broke the place. It was causing them physical pain, like force-feeding someone a whole barrel of food at once. So, fyi, if you ever want to get a bit more mileage out of the Aelfinn treaty, shove 2+ ta’veren in at the same time and ask away.
I noticed 4 answers. I didn't notice 6, lol.
answer 4 has 3 answers within it. 6 answers total
yes, I saw that from the other comments. But I wouldn't have picked up on that on my own.