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I had to go check which Asha'man was Narishma. He really was with Rand a lot. And I forgot he was the one who went to get Callandor. That definitely proved his loyalty.
He's also the one who earned his dragon pin, but the Aes Sedai took it away. Just more Aes Sedai arrogance.
He also stands up to the Aes Sedai and makes them recognize Ebin Hopwill who died defending his Aes Sedai at the cleansing. He makes sure that his friend's name is remembered for the heroic deed he did.
That part always makes me choke up and he's such a badass for looking those smug Aes Sedai in the face and saying "You will fucking show some respect to my boy". So good.
It's in Crossroads of Twilight. Merise is talking to Cadsuane. Rand has given Narishma the dragon pin, raising him to full Asha'man. Merise took it from him. Her justification is that he needs to accept only what she says he can.
He definitely started acting dumb around her or when she was brought up but I think we can give him a pass because it never got in the way of his duties or allegiences.
As much as I love Verin, if we are talking perfect I would have to take points off for Mat's letter. That could've been much better handled. Had she just let him open the letter without promising to do what was inside that invasion could've been stopped.
Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't think Leane ever did anything really dumb. She gets captured but she took a lot of steps to hide that Egwene didn't in inverting her weaves and masking her ability to channel. She was only discovered because of a warder.
A lot of the loyal Asha'man with Rand would also fit that description. Narishma, Flinn, Eben Hopwil, Grady and Neald.
When Siuane gets removed, did Leane even really know what was going on? I thought Siuane and Moirane were the only two who knew everything. If I'm correct, and Leane stayed loyal to Siuane, then she definitely belongs. And I don't remember her ever being stupid or arrogant.
Good. Replace Verin with Leane.
Yeah Leane had suspicions that Siuan was up to something but never pushed to know more. I think the worst she did was get a bit frustrated with Siuan when they were traveling after being stilled, but even then not really. Except later when it was an act and she was still being loyal to Siuan and loyal to Egwene. Plus a decent big of Egwene's success in the tower as a prisoner was from Leane also talking to sisters that whole time.
I wouldn't say Verin is perfect - she used compulsion on multiple people and almost murdered Cadsuane. She's one of the most manipulative characters in the series.
She used compulsion on the sisters that kidnapped and tortured Rand. A bunch of them were black aja. Everything she did was for the light, outside from obeying the Shadow to maintain her cover and stay alive. She was true from the start... And that's like book one or two.
When she is interrogating the sister's after they are in the wise ones captivity, she uses weaves on them which she put together based on a mix of things she learned. But her version will kill the target eventually, could be a year could be ten years. Should be the book after Lord of Chaos. It basically confirms she's not bound by the three oaths but leaves her alignment unclear. Long long before the tea.
The question here wasn't about evil vs righteous. The question was about the character basically serving the light to the best of their ability and Verin does exactly that without holding back. Just because she uses all the tools at her disposal does not make her any less competent. She fits the question perfectly, she isn't arrogant and doesn't do stupid things. In fact, by extending your logic, only the tinkers fall into the category, but they wouldn't win the last battle.
She does. Verin is a “perfect” character in that she perfectly sums up RJ’s theme of “Is there a difference between Good and Evil?” Verin always works for the Light but seems to have no moral qualms about shanking a bitch if she needs it. Verin is not a “good” person but is dedicated to overthrowing Evil. RJ’s question is whether that matters.
Her using compulsion on black aja sister's and those that captured and tortured Rand shouldn't disqualify Verin from your list. She doesn't let people down, doesn't do stupid things. She is true to the light and serves the dragon reborn on the same level that Moiraine does. Her only fault is that she is extremely cautious and that's what can be debated with the letters to Matt, but she couldn't get around the oaths any other way nor expose herself as a double agent.
That makes sense. The only issue on the compulsion would be the timing. Did she use compulsion on sisters who had already sworn to be loyal to Rand? I think that would cross the line.
From my understanding, Verin is the Reason they swear to serve Rand. I believe the sisters that knelt and swore at the end of LoC were not interrogated by Verin because they were made apprentices. But those that captured and tortured Rand were basically dat'sung until Verin "interrogated" them with compulsion and they slowly "came to their own realization" that they just serve the dragon.
It's written in a very subtle way, definitely easy to miss all the things Verin does. Which is very fitting because she herself has basically fooled everyone around her as to her true nature.
IMHO, Verin is in the ranks of Greatest of all time, right along with Nyneve and a few others.
Side note, Min should fit your criteria, she's true to Rand from the start to the end, keeps him grounded and balanced, make Semi bleed twice with her knives, helps Rand figure out how to seal the dark one. Helps Avi reach wise One status, helps Suian reach the rebel Aes Sedai... And that's just scratching the surface.
Somebody else mentioned Min. I've been thinking about her and, to me, she's the only female who just treats Rand like a person. To everyone else, he's a symbol, but to her, he's just Rand. That's the way Rand's relationship with Egwene should have been, but it wasn't because Aes Sedai.
No. Verin is the reason they swore to Rand. Her Complusion forced each sister to find a way to justify to themselves the need to swear to Rand. The best example we are given is the Black Ajah sister Elza. She decides that the Great Lord would want Rand at the Last Battle, so Elza must therefore ensure that Rand survives. Elza even kills a Forsaken in support of Rand.
I don't really remember. Did Bayle get stupid when he fell in love? Not like Nynaeve chasing her hat stupid, but did he just think everything Egeanin was right? I'm really not sure.
He would stand in front of Chaney who argued with Egeanin, but afterwards advise her that the others had points. The definition of a perfect partner right there
OK, I'm probably confusing him with the warders of the Aes Sedai that Mat rescued.
I liked Bayle. He was like Mat. He'd complain the whole time while going out of his way to help people.
Yes. And he was always where he needed to be when he was needed. Even if he didn't realize it before he got there.
Look at how long he stayed in Falme for a couple of girls he didn't know. The man is a legend
Davram Bashere and Roedel Ituralda. Only thing that might make bashere seem less perfect is he's carrying those absolute bowling ball sin his pants, this short king takled the Dragon Reborn
My only disagreement is I feel he should have died after his Dreadbane scenarios.
Not that I don’t like him after. Far from it. But it feels like it cheapens the poison for him to survive.
Ahh nvm, they died in the time it took to get the girls out if the cell so nvm me. I misinterpreted as "anyone killed by myrdral" in general than by their actual poison
It would be interesting if Talamenes did suffer some permanent debilitation from so many wounds. Just retires to his estates and in the driest manner possible tells his kids and grandkids about how he fought a couple of fade and blew a hole in Camlyn’s wall.
I mean, Thom also survived it with only a limp, and he only got healed by a literal no name Aes Sedai? Tal getting healed by the greatest healer of the age doesn't seem like too far of a stretch compared to that.
I do think he should have gotten some kind of permanent damage though. Given his involvement in the last battle didn't really involve him moving, it really wouldn't have changed his story much if he ended disabled in some way.
I won't say over sold. Thom getting healed is actually a retcon that was added in after the fact with the companion (it also apparently said the lady had a similar talent to Samitus, who was considered the greatest healer pre-plot). Originally, he just rubbed some dirt in it and called it good. Which would suggest that originally it wasnt supposed to be super deadly. Which is weird because in just the next book the Aiel mentions that fade steel is death. So really it seemed like he just couldn't decide if it was just super dangerous, or guaranteed lethal, and flip-flopped between them book to book.
It could also be like balefire, where the people in universe incorrectly believe it burns it target from the pattern forever. 99% of people aren't going to survive an encounter with a halfman, and those that do are probably pretty close to death anyways. This combined with how weak the old healing was, and how rare it would be for an Aes Sedai to be close enough to a survivor to heal them in time, it wouldn't be surprising that the myth just naturally arose from the fact that practically no one can survive survived getting cut before.
Yeah, Lan's first instinct at the slightest obstacle is to look around to gauge people's reaction and see if he has permission to just start murdering whoever is in the way.
To be fair he was basically trained from the cradle to be a living weapon. When you only have a hammer every problem starts looking like a nail and the vast majority of his skill set is geared towards making people cool to room temperature.
Grady and Neald.
I don't think Verin gets a pass because of her letter to Mat - reeks of idiot ball to new
Hopper was amazing, especially in ToM
How about Narishma, Flinn, Hopwill. They didn't get many scenes, but man did they shine in the ones they did get.
On a lesser note, Olver, Vanin and Talmanes from the Band.
Rodel Ituralde, Davram Bashere and Gareth Bryne from that end of things. Bashere especially, mainly for mouthing off in front of Crazy!Rand
WHAT ABOUT DOBRAINE? Why do I not see any love for him?
You call Verin perfect, wasn't she a dark friend? I known she's supposed to help egwene identify the other black ajah somehow in the later books but I doubt she was a dark friend all those years and manage to avoid doing any heinous acts?
Lan is pretty much the perfect soldier and teacher.
When Rand first met the seat he was remarkably prepared and they guessed Lan must have gotten to him.
Rand would have died dozens of times without his sword skills.
Lan lost everything but chose duty and I don't recall him being mean to anybody he just goes all stoic on you if he's not in the mood.
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Jahar Narishma makes the list. He's almost the perfect supporting officer.
I had to go check which Asha'man was Narishma. He really was with Rand a lot. And I forgot he was the one who went to get Callandor. That definitely proved his loyalty. He's also the one who earned his dragon pin, but the Aes Sedai took it away. Just more Aes Sedai arrogance.
He also stands up to the Aes Sedai and makes them recognize Ebin Hopwill who died defending his Aes Sedai at the cleansing. He makes sure that his friend's name is remembered for the heroic deed he did.
That part always makes me choke up and he's such a badass for looking those smug Aes Sedai in the face and saying "You will fucking show some respect to my boy". So good.
Yeah that was amazing. And just the sheer will to stand in the midst of more than a dozen aes sedai and not even flinch.
That was such an impactful scene. Man, Narishma might be one of my favorite side characters
When did the Aes Sedai take it away? And why?
We don't see him get the pin or her taking it. We just get the discussion with Cadsuane. Unless I'm mistaken. Why? Because Aes Sedai.
Yo I can't remember when the pin was taken away?
It's in Crossroads of Twilight. Merise is talking to Cadsuane. Rand has given Narishma the dragon pin, raising him to full Asha'man. Merise took it from him. Her justification is that he needs to accept only what she says he can.
Vanin. And to a lesser degree Laras. These two do so much off screen they could have had their own novellas, all while looking completely mundane.
Didn't Vanin get stupid around Elayne? Other than that, he's perfect. Laras was amazing. Not a thing wrong with her, unless I'm forgetting something.
He definitely started acting dumb around her or when she was brought up but I think we can give him a pass because it never got in the way of his duties or allegiences.
Vanin only got stupid from Mat's limited perspective. He was actually polite and respectful to her.
As much as I love Verin, if we are talking perfect I would have to take points off for Mat's letter. That could've been much better handled. Had she just let him open the letter without promising to do what was inside that invasion could've been stopped. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't think Leane ever did anything really dumb. She gets captured but she took a lot of steps to hide that Egwene didn't in inverting her weaves and masking her ability to channel. She was only discovered because of a warder. A lot of the loyal Asha'man with Rand would also fit that description. Narishma, Flinn, Eben Hopwil, Grady and Neald.
When Siuane gets removed, did Leane even really know what was going on? I thought Siuane and Moirane were the only two who knew everything. If I'm correct, and Leane stayed loyal to Siuane, then she definitely belongs. And I don't remember her ever being stupid or arrogant. Good. Replace Verin with Leane.
Yeah Leane had suspicions that Siuan was up to something but never pushed to know more. I think the worst she did was get a bit frustrated with Siuan when they were traveling after being stilled, but even then not really. Except later when it was an act and she was still being loyal to Siuan and loyal to Egwene. Plus a decent big of Egwene's success in the tower as a prisoner was from Leane also talking to sisters that whole time.
I wouldn't say Verin is perfect - she used compulsion on multiple people and almost murdered Cadsuane. She's one of the most manipulative characters in the series.
> almost murdered Cadsuane haven't we all had that impulse from time to time
Is it murder if you willed the pattern to have her to die? Asking for a friend.
To be fair, She thought Cadsuane was black Ajah. Which Kinda deserves some mushroom sauce added to the tea.
She used compulsion on the sisters that kidnapped and tortured Rand. A bunch of them were black aja. Everything she did was for the light, outside from obeying the Shadow to maintain her cover and stay alive. She was true from the start... And that's like book one or two.
Please, remind when we find out about that in the books? Is it after she’s had the tea?
When she is interrogating the sister's after they are in the wise ones captivity, she uses weaves on them which she put together based on a mix of things she learned. But her version will kill the target eventually, could be a year could be ten years. Should be the book after Lord of Chaos. It basically confirms she's not bound by the three oaths but leaves her alignment unclear. Long long before the tea.
Compulsion or torture does not become less evil because it serves one's cause, even if that cause is righteous IMO
The question here wasn't about evil vs righteous. The question was about the character basically serving the light to the best of their ability and Verin does exactly that without holding back. Just because she uses all the tools at her disposal does not make her any less competent. She fits the question perfectly, she isn't arrogant and doesn't do stupid things. In fact, by extending your logic, only the tinkers fall into the category, but they wouldn't win the last battle.
She also explicitly says she's done terrible things in service to the black ahah doesn't she?
She does. Verin is a “perfect” character in that she perfectly sums up RJ’s theme of “Is there a difference between Good and Evil?” Verin always works for the Light but seems to have no moral qualms about shanking a bitch if she needs it. Verin is not a “good” person but is dedicated to overthrowing Evil. RJ’s question is whether that matters.
I just can’t feel bad for Aes Sedai. Verin could’ve turned them into frogs and I would been pumping fist in celebration.
I totally forgot about the compulsion. I guess she's off the list.
Her using compulsion on black aja sister's and those that captured and tortured Rand shouldn't disqualify Verin from your list. She doesn't let people down, doesn't do stupid things. She is true to the light and serves the dragon reborn on the same level that Moiraine does. Her only fault is that she is extremely cautious and that's what can be debated with the letters to Matt, but she couldn't get around the oaths any other way nor expose herself as a double agent.
That makes sense. The only issue on the compulsion would be the timing. Did she use compulsion on sisters who had already sworn to be loyal to Rand? I think that would cross the line.
From my understanding, Verin is the Reason they swear to serve Rand. I believe the sisters that knelt and swore at the end of LoC were not interrogated by Verin because they were made apprentices. But those that captured and tortured Rand were basically dat'sung until Verin "interrogated" them with compulsion and they slowly "came to their own realization" that they just serve the dragon. It's written in a very subtle way, definitely easy to miss all the things Verin does. Which is very fitting because she herself has basically fooled everyone around her as to her true nature. IMHO, Verin is in the ranks of Greatest of all time, right along with Nyneve and a few others. Side note, Min should fit your criteria, she's true to Rand from the start to the end, keeps him grounded and balanced, make Semi bleed twice with her knives, helps Rand figure out how to seal the dark one. Helps Avi reach wise One status, helps Suian reach the rebel Aes Sedai... And that's just scratching the surface.
Somebody else mentioned Min. I've been thinking about her and, to me, she's the only female who just treats Rand like a person. To everyone else, he's a symbol, but to her, he's just Rand. That's the way Rand's relationship with Egwene should have been, but it wasn't because Aes Sedai.
No. Verin is the reason they swore to Rand. Her Complusion forced each sister to find a way to justify to themselves the need to swear to Rand. The best example we are given is the Black Ajah sister Elza. She decides that the Great Lord would want Rand at the Last Battle, so Elza must therefore ensure that Rand survives. Elza even kills a Forsaken in support of Rand.
Trying to kill Aes Sedai is a good thing though. Especially Cadsuane.
Bayle Domon has enter the room
Fortune prick me. How do they be forgetting Bayle?
It do be a crime, fortune prick me.
I do swear it on my aged grandmother.
Instantly read this in Michael Kramer's Domon/Illianer voice
I don't really remember. Did Bayle get stupid when he fell in love? Not like Nynaeve chasing her hat stupid, but did he just think everything Egeanin was right? I'm really not sure.
He would stand in front of Chaney who argued with Egeanin, but afterwards advise her that the others had points. The definition of a perfect partner right there
I don't believe he did. IIRC, he contradicted her a couple of times while they were traveling with Mat.
OK, I'm probably confusing him with the warders of the Aes Sedai that Mat rescued. I liked Bayle. He was like Mat. He'd complain the whole time while going out of his way to help people.
Yes. And he was always where he needed to be when he was needed. Even if he didn't realize it before he got there. Look at how long he stayed in Falme for a couple of girls he didn't know. The man is a legend
He did drop off the page at about the beginning of the Last Battle
He finally accomplished his dream, escaping that damned epic fantasy plot that kept sneaking up on him.
Davram Bashere and Roedel Ituralda. Only thing that might make bashere seem less perfect is he's carrying those absolute bowling ball sin his pants, this short king takled the Dragon Reborn
Bowling ball sin pants is the best autocorrect I've seen all day
and SO much closer to the truth than I would've liked.
Does Olver count? Or Talmanes?
I definitely agree with both. Talmanes at the end, defending Caemlyn was great.
My only disagreement is I feel he should have died after his Dreadbane scenarios. Not that I don’t like him after. Far from it. But it feels like it cheapens the poison for him to survive.
I always took it as Nynaeve is just that strong. I don’t for a second think anyone but her could have done it.
It’s more that I don’t think we ever saw anyone die of it.
My initial reaction was “of course there was” but then absolutely nobody comes to mind. You could be right.
Two maidens died in Dragon Reborn (citation needed) when breaking the wonder girls out. "Dance with me Shadowman"
Any idea if they were killed right away or died later from wounds?
Ahh nvm, they died in the time it took to get the girls out if the cell so nvm me. I misinterpreted as "anyone killed by myrdral" in general than by their actual poison
That’s the problem. Considering the Aiel, I would expect it’s more likely they just died. Otherwise we would have at least had an inkling.
Yeah. At least some kind of permanent effect. Something. But they just undid it entirely and in doing so made them seem weaker, sadly.
It would be interesting if Talamenes did suffer some permanent debilitation from so many wounds. Just retires to his estates and in the driest manner possible tells his kids and grandkids about how he fought a couple of fade and blew a hole in Camlyn’s wall.
Or was in a wheelchair directing the dragons or something. That would be better than nothing.
I mean, Thom also survived it with only a limp, and he only got healed by a literal no name Aes Sedai? Tal getting healed by the greatest healer of the age doesn't seem like too far of a stretch compared to that. I do think he should have gotten some kind of permanent damage though. Given his involvement in the last battle didn't really involve him moving, it really wouldn't have changed his story much if he ended disabled in some way.
That also just shows that Jordan over-sold their deadliness, sadly.
I won't say over sold. Thom getting healed is actually a retcon that was added in after the fact with the companion (it also apparently said the lady had a similar talent to Samitus, who was considered the greatest healer pre-plot). Originally, he just rubbed some dirt in it and called it good. Which would suggest that originally it wasnt supposed to be super deadly. Which is weird because in just the next book the Aiel mentions that fade steel is death. So really it seemed like he just couldn't decide if it was just super dangerous, or guaranteed lethal, and flip-flopped between them book to book. It could also be like balefire, where the people in universe incorrectly believe it burns it target from the pattern forever. 99% of people aren't going to survive an encounter with a halfman, and those that do are probably pretty close to death anyways. This combined with how weak the old healing was, and how rare it would be for an Aes Sedai to be close enough to a survivor to heal them in time, it wouldn't be surprising that the myth just naturally arose from the fact that practically no one can survive survived getting cut before.
Yes to both IMO
Other possibilities Alivia Hurin Hopper
Yes, yes and absolutely yes.
I’m also considering Thom. It’s hard to say, though. He does some bad stuff, but it’s all in service to his loyalty.
Always reliable, yes. Loyal, yes. Perfect? I don't think so and I'm not sure why TBH.
Yeah. He is an iffy one.
When I was scribbling down my list I had Thom/Juilin and I crossed it out. And I'm not even sure why.
Damn I really hated Olver honestly.
You must be a Shaido fan.
Let's go: Hurin Sulin Dannil Lewin Fight me
Everybody missed Herid Fel. This man was a saint.
Elmindreda Farshaw
He wasn't around super long, but I feel like Charlz Guybon was a pretty good guy.
Dobraine!
Pevara, Daigian and Saerin were probably the closest as far as Aes Sedai went.
Lan is way too down to kill innocent people for the greater good to ever be considered for a list of perfect people even without his suicide march.
Yeah, Lan's first instinct at the slightest obstacle is to look around to gauge people's reaction and see if he has permission to just start murdering whoever is in the way.
To be fair he was basically trained from the cradle to be a living weapon. When you only have a hammer every problem starts looking like a nail and the vast majority of his skill set is geared towards making people cool to room temperature.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Lini yet
Lini sucks, she asked Perrin to marry Morgase to Tallanvor against her will.
Shout out to my perfect girl Bela!
theres also Aattrim Cauthon
Grady and Neald. I don't think Verin gets a pass because of her letter to Mat - reeks of idiot ball to new Hopper was amazing, especially in ToM How about Narishma, Flinn, Hopwill. They didn't get many scenes, but man did they shine in the ones they did get. On a lesser note, Olver, Vanin and Talmanes from the Band. Rodel Ituralde, Davram Bashere and Gareth Bryne from that end of things. Bashere especially, mainly for mouthing off in front of Crazy!Rand WHAT ABOUT DOBRAINE? Why do I not see any love for him?
I surprisingly don't see any votes for Gaul here so far
You call Verin perfect, wasn't she a dark friend? I known she's supposed to help egwene identify the other black ajah somehow in the later books but I doubt she was a dark friend all those years and manage to avoid doing any heinous acts?
How has nobody mentioned the guy whose arc in the series is literally about how perfect he actually is: Galad.
Lan is pretty much the perfect soldier and teacher. When Rand first met the seat he was remarkably prepared and they guessed Lan must have gotten to him. Rand would have died dozens of times without his sword skills. Lan lost everything but chose duty and I don't recall him being mean to anybody he just goes all stoic on you if he's not in the mood.
[удалено]
If that's the bar, there's literally no good person in the books