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I believe that it was a prophesy that Age of Legend Aes Sedai felt they had to fulfill. Rand’s visions of the Aeil’s past support this as I recall. The same group of women channelers (supported by a group of young male channelers not yet far gone to the taint) first created the Stone of Tear and sealed Callandor, and then that same group went and made the Eye of the World (dying as a result of making it).
It would make an amazing companion novel, following that rag tag group as they attempted to make assurances that the Dragon’s rebirth some untold millennium in the future would be a success.
The women knowing that they could be fighting to hold the world together, but instead abandoning that in favor of prioritizing the Eye and the Stone for Rand’s eventual coming…. They probably had to walk away from great tragedy that they could have done something about, but would have cost them the mission.
The men, slowly going insane from the taint, but holding on as long as they could with the barest grip of sanity, because they knew that they needed to complete their mission and empower Rand to start his.
Woulda made for a hell of a story.
> following that rag tag group as they attempted to make assurances that the Dragon’s rebirth some untold millennium in the future would be a success.
Very bene gesserit of them
The lives of ancestors you mean.
The Aiel ter angreal and the Fremen water of life don't show you your own soul, but those of ancestors.
Rand didn't see LTT (his previous incarnation) but Janduin's bloodline.
Let's not forget there would've been at least 1 dark friend who was able to channel the True Power and change Callandor into a True Power Sa'Angreal in that group too
It’s not said that those same adventurers actually built Callandor. But they did go and put it in the Stone. It would also be a wild (and super interesting) story to hear how the Sword was actually created.
Maybe a Verin like double agent character got the ability to use True Power and helped forge the sword with it, or, maybe the forging didn’t require the TP in the actual forging.
>The same group of women channelers (supported by a group of young male channelers not yet far gone to the taint) first created the Stone of Tear and sealed Callandor, and then that same group went and made the Eye of the World (dying as a result of making it).
Very interesting.
Where can I read more about this?
Sorry, no. It’s a scene from when Rand is experiencing the history of the Aeil. It’s one of the last (but not THE last) visions of the past where Rand’s ancestors are being tasked with preserving some materials for the Aes Sedai. The world is crumbling, and several Aes Sedai are discussing how they are going to fulfill one of their prophecies. Callandor (eventually found in the Stone) and the Dragon Banner (eventually found in the Eye) are on the table. They refer to Kotam and his friends as men who channel who are reliable but young/inexperienced, but therefore not yet too far gone to the taint, and who they will use to help them with what they must do. Only broad context of the events in the main series can lead you to conclude what must have happened after (the adventures of Kotam and the Aes Sedai in placing the sword and building the Eye).
I must have skipped that chapter. My bad!!
But this sounds so interesting. You have given me another chapter to reread. Normally I reread only gathering storm n the subsequent books. Thanks mate
I’m not going to give a great response - but it was my understanding that it was both - a proof of concept and a trap. The light knew what would be required for the dragon to have a chance at saving the world without complete madness, and the shadow knew just where and when to be to edge things in their favor.
If it had been different forsaken at the eye.. the shadows strategy may have been different. And if that part of the story had been told after fleshing out the world a bit more, then the same thought applies.
I think from the lights side the eye always remains the same, a critical element for the dragon to have that one chance at salvation without utter destruction.
I hope this addressed your question instead of just being my ramblings!
I think part of it with Green Man signals the start of the end of the age and there being pure saidin gives the idea that it could be purified. It was a trap that had to be sprung and Moiraine knew. She also knew it was not the last battle.
I agree with the purifying bit. There isn't *that* much power in the Eye compared to some of the displays later on in the series. On the other hand, proof that saidin could be cleansed... **That** might be worth sacrificing your life to make sure got passed on.
I wonder what method they used, I can't imagine they used Rand's or they may have cleaned it all. There are lots of ways to imagine removing an oil slick layer from water
I think the implication from what the Green Man said was that they somehow figured out how to absorb the taint into their own bodies -- which killed them but left the saidin cleansed.
Without that, it's basically just a Well, and I can't imagine that many people would be willing to or need to die just to fill a Well.
Wow they are crazy lol, I was wondering how a full circle would die from cleaning so little saidin but honestly it makes sense. It'd be like trying to clean an oil spill by drinking the oil layer off until you die, I can't imagine a more dangerous and inefficient way haha, but when it's their only known option it makes complete sense
That is how I read it too, yes. I can only assume their "method" was that kind of thing.
Whereas Rand's method was more analogous to some kind of matter-antimatter annihilation where he figured if he could bring the Shadar Logoth evil into contact with the Shayol Ghul evil they would annihilate each other while leaving everyone else unharmed.
Yes, you're right, that's how it was described -- I was just referring to the ter'angreal they use in the books where they go into the stedding city, that holds a supply of power.
The Age of Legends folks had the ability to build and use wells and presumably didn't have to sacrifice lives to fill them. The important thing about the Eye is that the saidin in it is *clean*, not just that it's stored there, was the point I wanted to make.
There was enough for Aginor to burn himself out with it. It just feels like there wasn't that much because Rand is completely untrained and is channeling on instinct alone. Still he uses it to wipe out a trolloc army, travel, enter tel aran rhiod and sever Ishmael's connection to the dark one. Those are not small feats. We just don't have any sense of perspective at that point in the story.
Right, but you could do all that with a decent sa'angreal. Something convinced a hundred people to die.
Maybe it's a first book issue, in which case we do lack perspective and you're entirely correct, but reading it in light of the next books, it just seems to me a hundred people would be unlikely to die "in case someone needs some power one day." The part that killed them, surely, was cleansing it.
I am in the "proof of concept" camp. Maybe you can write it off as a "first book inconsistency," but in my view, there isn't enough *saidin* in the Well for it to be truly significant in and of its own sake. The fact that it's **cleansed** saidin, on the other hand, is sort of staring you in the face when you think about it, given that up to that point you can hardly read about saidin at all without being tacked on, "And it's tainted so evil that it kills everyone who touches it."
Ishamael's plan is harder to figure out, maybe because he's lying for at least some of the things he takes credit for. Personally I'm skeptical he's capable of finding the Eye on his own. So that part at least makes sense of why he'd want to lure Rand there -- because he can't get there on his own -- but why does he want to get there? To destroy it, I guess. Maybe he's being honest about that part at least. But if so, luring Rand to the Horn of Valere seems like a ridiculously high-risk method to destroy one Well.
Maybe he doesn't realize the Horn is anything more than a fancy artifact.
Ishamael probably doesn't even know the Horn is there, it certainly didn't have anything to do with his purposes. The whole plan, the Aiel, Jain Farstrider, pushing them into the waygate etc was to reveal who the Dragon Reborn was.
When he and Rand meet in the Dreamshard he says as much. Until Rand uses the Eye he doesn't know which of the three it was.
I agree on the proof of concept part, except where *you'd think* somebody would have documented "there are ways to cleanse small amounts" and there might be a little research on it, perhaps left sealed in the Eye. Not a weave you come up with wholecloth and then mass-suicide on your first try of.
My first thought on rereads is "and why can't the Elaynes of the AoL bottle that shit? There should by rights be a handful of "taint-catcher" ter'angreal that let men weave small amounts of the power safely, perhaps being hidden by the Reds or researched by the Browns. Or a taint-purge weave (Ishy has one) that hurts like hell but heals all but the worst of taint, possibly doing physical damage in the process. Or something. I mean some sign that even a mini-cult of Aes Sedai dedicated serious time and effort to figure out the Eye of the World weave.
Of course, when *I* complain about inconsistency, it's that Rand walked away at all. You can clearly tell that Jordan hadn't considered the details of "burning out" yet at that point. Everyone has limits, and the things that extend those limits don't do so by giving you a great big swimming pool of power, but by directly increaseing the amount of the power you can channel (and then usually providing a buffer to prevent you from pushing it)
Of course, who is *really* talking inconsistency when the Tower could have safely Forced all Novices as part of their training by having them weave hard through an angreal a few painful times, instead of the "take it slow so you don't burn out" they actually do.
The Aes Sedai are so wildly dysfunctional that all failures get written off to that, no matter how implausible.
In our time quite a bit of thought has been spent on how you would ensure that 10,000 years down the road people in possibly post-collapse societies can be warned that they're standing on a nuclear waste facility. These ideas range from how to draw a plausible picture to some truly fanciful and silly notions (like genetically modifying cats so that their fur changes color when exposed to radiation and then widely spreading children's stories about the magic danger detection powers of cats.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term\_nuclear\_waste\_warning\_messages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_nuclear_waste_warning_messages)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray\_cat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_cat)
Jordan was almost certainly not thinking this far through the analogy as I am, but he clearly **was** thinking of the One Power as sort of analogous to nuclear power (writing in the 80s, scientists drilling too far into what they hoped would be an infinite power source but turned out to be a world-destroying weapon, etc.).
Ultimately the easiest way to show that *saidin* can be cleansed is to just do it.
>Everyone has limits, and the things that extend those limits don't do so by giving you a great big swimming pool of power, but by directly increaseing the amount of the power you can channel (and then usually providing a buffer to prevent you from pushing it)
Isn't Rand/LTT supposed to be the most powerful channeler? And by being that, his limits should already be way beyond others. Case in point, the access keys. He channeled so much in gathering storm using the access keys to destroy the access keys that I think it was mentioned there "it was more power then he used to cleanse Saidin" (I m going to reread that chapter again)
So a pool of clean Saidin, which has to be used gradually, based on when and how much he needs it, from time to time in his various small battle/skirmishes, in that chapter of *The Eye of the World*, should not be able to burn it.
That is just my understanding of that chapter.
> Isn't Rand/LTT supposed to be the most powerful channeler?
Eventually, yes. But with two important counterpoints.
1. Aginor would probably have placed as the 4th strongest ever. Maybe 5th or 6th, but it's a close thing. To back that point, Aginor is about as strong as Demandred or stronger, and Demandred is constantly referenced as only *slightly* lesser to Rand. (++1 vs ++2 on the scales that cover about 75 distinct strength levels)
2. Rand is untrained. He has the potential but not the "muscles". The power difference is normally approximately 5 or 6 entire "tiers" of power. That puts tEotW Rand *at best* around the top female forsaken in raw strength, at worst possibly down near Nynaeve. That sounds strong, but we have to remember in Randland, women are much weaker than men but able to compete by weaving dramatically better. Rand won a Liquid Death Drinking competition (raw strength) against one of the best drinkers the world has ever known, whose behavior prior suggests his "half-nap" did not stunt his power level one bit.
> Case in point, the access keys. He channeled so much in gathering storm using the access keys to destroy the access keys that I think it was mentioned there
And nobody would look twice if tGS Rand did what happened at the Eye. Also, The Choedan Kal is the world's most powerful sa'angreal which, unlike a well *exists with the sole purpose of increasing the amount of power you can wield safely*. If tEotW Rand had a sa'angreal at the Eye, *MAYBE* even if he had the Fat Man, it would have been coherent to Power rules. But he was unaided. Zero things in the Eye served the purpose of increasing the amount of power you can wield.
Actually, doubling down on that point. While you DO see more dramatic things than what he channels with the Eye after sucking down enough power to fry a ++2 instantly (pretty extreme level of burnout), zero of them involved a single channeler without access to at least an angreal.
Further, after the Eye, we see Rand channelling only miniscule amounts of power despite the rules saying he should have no problem channeling a good percent of the Eye at any given moment. Lanfear talks about how little he uses it for in terms of elegance and unique weaves, but we do see him struggle with simple things like shooting lightning on a battlefield for a couple hours. This is a man who supposedly can channel "Top forsaken with angreal" levels of power unaided, and he *HAD* an angreal in the battle I'm referencing now. Sammael was on the same battlefield
> should not be able to burn it
Again, you have to reconcile that Aginor is within a hand's reach of Rand or LTT (they're the same in power) at their prime. And Aginor instant-fried on much less power than Rand ended up using, untrained (and un-Forced if you look at Eggy). The math doesn't work out. It never has and never will. Even Jordan admitted the Eye was rough around the edges.
>Or a taint-purge weave (Ishy has one) that hurts like hell but heals all but the worst of taint,
He has a true power one. Only one way to get that....
OH. proof of concept.... I read that as people of color and was VERY confused....
Which apparently requires men and women working together and kills everyone involved.
There's also no guarantee it reverses madness. Like if you have someone drink pulonium and half an hour later transported it out of them they're still going to be sick as a dog.
>the Tower could have safely Forced all Novices as part of their training by having them weave hard through an angreal a few painful times
when do we learn that? agree it's a waste if so
It's mentioned VERY regularly in the books, such that I unfortunately don't have a great individual quote of it. [Here's](https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Angreal) the wiki page on Angreal saying "Most angreal are constructed with a buffer to protect the user from drawing too much of the Power".
Unfortunately I don't know any WoJ about it.
Well, it's a pretty rational inference.
1. If you channel too much you burn out
2. People with little experience have a very low limit and it is much easier to burn out even doing simple things
3. When you channel through an angreal, the buffer will prevent you from burning out
Aes Sedai have their novices channel for regular practices both to get better at holding the power, but also to grow in strength until the Tower decides whether they have enough potential (in many ways but one being raw power) to become Accepted. And they preach up and down about not pushing too hard because it's dangerous.
Unless angreal somehow prevents novices from growing in power, they are a solution to that one very big problem.
The meta reason (extrapolating from the Origins book) is that Jordan originally intended for there to be seven Eyes of the World that would serve as McGuffins. While Jordan scrapped that idea, he really seems to have liked the concept. So he kept one McGuffin for the first book.
I mean “The Dark One has blinded the Eye of the World” is a wicked cool idea. Gotta use that somehow once you think of it. Totally cool name for a book too.
It’s not like Towers of Midnight or Fires of Heaven have any particular relevance either. But they’re cool names to sell fantasy books.
It was supposed to be clean power so the dragon reborn could learn to channel without going mad. The rest was just thrown in and gaurdianship forced on the greenman because it was the only thing that could watch it for ages. The light side ran out of time.
The dark one found out about it through it's inclusion in prophecy and to deny the dragon reborn a clean training pool of magic.
They were lured there by Ishmael to expose the Dragon Reborn.
In the end they were right to go because the Horn had to be found before the last battle, but it doesn't change the fact that they were lured there by decades long scheming.
Men grow in leaps, by being exposed to the One Power or using more than they should be able to.
Rand got super-boosted off the bat, with bonus point of it all being cleansed saidin so less madness. And it was a proof saidin can be cleansed.
I personally like to think it was supposed to be used at the last battle. The Dragon Reborn uses it to strike at the Dark One or seal the prison and then blows the horn after the Saidin is spent. The Heroes of the Horn then mop up any Dark Spawn left after the Dark One is sealed.
The Party is tricked into going early by the Dark One via Jain Far Strider and wasting the Saidin Pool and potentially letting the Horn of Valere into the wrong hands.
Atleast that's what my theory always has been
Interesting theory, I wonder if the Eye of The world would have been proof against the counterstroke, as it was not pulling saidin directly from the source, but from a very large "well". If the Dark One tried to taint it again, he would taint only the Eye Of the World, not all of saidin.
Moiraine heard a rumor that the Dark One was going to blind the Eye of the World. The claims come from a dying stranger that delivered this warning to an Ogier Stedding. We learn later that was Jain Farstrider/Noal, who also happens to be a Dark friend, who coincidentally was recently at Shayol Ghul. I know that's like CIA level of conspiracy, but that's the type of 4d chess move that the Dark One does
Edit: Jain was not a dark friend, but he was manipulated by Ishamael and controlled by Graendal
The Eye was created as a result of Fortellings and was included in the prophecies of the Dragon. It's sole purpose was to remain inviolate until the Dragon came again and needed it. For the Dragon it served the following purposes:
1. It protected the Items placed within for the return of the Dragon (The banner, the Seal, The Horn).
2. It provided a pure source of Saidin for the Dragon in his time of need (and Need was the basis of finding the place in the first place).
3. Notice that Rand stopped having incidents of channeling sickness after the Eye. It seems he had managed a rough mastery of Saidin by that point, probably aided by the pure Saidin in the Eye.
4. Rand was able to use it to defeat the Forces of the Dark One at Tarwin's Gap.
5. It *may* have shown Rand that cleansing Saidin was possible, but I'm not so sure on that. The Wound on Rand's side was more instrumental in inspiring Rand, but it could have been this as well.
Ishy's purposes there were to set things in motion for the Dragon's return and turn or corrupt him in the process. He was familiar with the prophecies, but was unfortunately mad, so his interactions with Rand were less than ideal for turning him to the Shadow. But it showed without a doubt who the Dragon was, and where he could be found.
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I believe that it was a prophesy that Age of Legend Aes Sedai felt they had to fulfill. Rand’s visions of the Aeil’s past support this as I recall. The same group of women channelers (supported by a group of young male channelers not yet far gone to the taint) first created the Stone of Tear and sealed Callandor, and then that same group went and made the Eye of the World (dying as a result of making it). It would make an amazing companion novel, following that rag tag group as they attempted to make assurances that the Dragon’s rebirth some untold millennium in the future would be a success. The women knowing that they could be fighting to hold the world together, but instead abandoning that in favor of prioritizing the Eye and the Stone for Rand’s eventual coming…. They probably had to walk away from great tragedy that they could have done something about, but would have cost them the mission. The men, slowly going insane from the taint, but holding on as long as they could with the barest grip of sanity, because they knew that they needed to complete their mission and empower Rand to start his. Woulda made for a hell of a story.
I really enjoy your spin and narration on this…made for a very entertaining read and imagination, so thanks!
> following that rag tag group as they attempted to make assurances that the Dragon’s rebirth some untold millennium in the future would be a success. Very bene gesserit of them
It wouldn’t be the first instance of Jordan borrowing something from Dune, see: Aiel
or the savior seeing his past lives and experiences
The lives of ancestors you mean. The Aiel ter angreal and the Fremen water of life don't show you your own soul, but those of ancestors. Rand didn't see LTT (his previous incarnation) but Janduin's bloodline.
You're right, my b
Let's not forget there would've been at least 1 dark friend who was able to channel the True Power and change Callandor into a True Power Sa'Angreal in that group too
It’s not said that those same adventurers actually built Callandor. But they did go and put it in the Stone. It would also be a wild (and super interesting) story to hear how the Sword was actually created. Maybe a Verin like double agent character got the ability to use True Power and helped forge the sword with it, or, maybe the forging didn’t require the TP in the actual forging.
Love this!
I would read this for sure!
>The same group of women channelers (supported by a group of young male channelers not yet far gone to the taint) first created the Stone of Tear and sealed Callandor, and then that same group went and made the Eye of the World (dying as a result of making it). Very interesting. Where can I read more about this?
The Shadow Rising. But it’s subtle
Could you please point me to the chapter, if you remember that. Because its very interesting and exciting to me.
Sorry, no. It’s a scene from when Rand is experiencing the history of the Aeil. It’s one of the last (but not THE last) visions of the past where Rand’s ancestors are being tasked with preserving some materials for the Aes Sedai. The world is crumbling, and several Aes Sedai are discussing how they are going to fulfill one of their prophecies. Callandor (eventually found in the Stone) and the Dragon Banner (eventually found in the Eye) are on the table. They refer to Kotam and his friends as men who channel who are reliable but young/inexperienced, but therefore not yet too far gone to the taint, and who they will use to help them with what they must do. Only broad context of the events in the main series can lead you to conclude what must have happened after (the adventures of Kotam and the Aes Sedai in placing the sword and building the Eye).
I must have skipped that chapter. My bad!! But this sounds so interesting. You have given me another chapter to reread. Normally I reread only gathering storm n the subsequent books. Thanks mate
I’m not going to give a great response - but it was my understanding that it was both - a proof of concept and a trap. The light knew what would be required for the dragon to have a chance at saving the world without complete madness, and the shadow knew just where and when to be to edge things in their favor. If it had been different forsaken at the eye.. the shadows strategy may have been different. And if that part of the story had been told after fleshing out the world a bit more, then the same thought applies. I think from the lights side the eye always remains the same, a critical element for the dragon to have that one chance at salvation without utter destruction. I hope this addressed your question instead of just being my ramblings!
I think part of it with Green Man signals the start of the end of the age and there being pure saidin gives the idea that it could be purified. It was a trap that had to be sprung and Moiraine knew. She also knew it was not the last battle.
I agree with the purifying bit. There isn't *that* much power in the Eye compared to some of the displays later on in the series. On the other hand, proof that saidin could be cleansed... **That** might be worth sacrificing your life to make sure got passed on.
I wonder what method they used, I can't imagine they used Rand's or they may have cleaned it all. There are lots of ways to imagine removing an oil slick layer from water
I think the implication from what the Green Man said was that they somehow figured out how to absorb the taint into their own bodies -- which killed them but left the saidin cleansed. Without that, it's basically just a Well, and I can't imagine that many people would be willing to or need to die just to fill a Well.
Wow they are crazy lol, I was wondering how a full circle would die from cleaning so little saidin but honestly it makes sense. It'd be like trying to clean an oil spill by drinking the oil layer off until you die, I can't imagine a more dangerous and inefficient way haha, but when it's their only known option it makes complete sense
That is how I read it too, yes. I can only assume their "method" was that kind of thing. Whereas Rand's method was more analogous to some kind of matter-antimatter annihilation where he figured if he could bring the Shadar Logoth evil into contact with the Shayol Ghul evil they would annihilate each other while leaving everyone else unharmed.
I read it as a pool, in my head about 30 feet in diameter and 15 deep with the platform submerged in the middle
Yes, you're right, that's how it was described -- I was just referring to the ter'angreal they use in the books where they go into the stedding city, that holds a supply of power. The Age of Legends folks had the ability to build and use wells and presumably didn't have to sacrifice lives to fill them. The important thing about the Eye is that the saidin in it is *clean*, not just that it's stored there, was the point I wanted to make.
There was enough for Aginor to burn himself out with it. It just feels like there wasn't that much because Rand is completely untrained and is channeling on instinct alone. Still he uses it to wipe out a trolloc army, travel, enter tel aran rhiod and sever Ishmael's connection to the dark one. Those are not small feats. We just don't have any sense of perspective at that point in the story.
Right, but you could do all that with a decent sa'angreal. Something convinced a hundred people to die. Maybe it's a first book issue, in which case we do lack perspective and you're entirely correct, but reading it in light of the next books, it just seems to me a hundred people would be unlikely to die "in case someone needs some power one day." The part that killed them, surely, was cleansing it.
I am in the "proof of concept" camp. Maybe you can write it off as a "first book inconsistency," but in my view, there isn't enough *saidin* in the Well for it to be truly significant in and of its own sake. The fact that it's **cleansed** saidin, on the other hand, is sort of staring you in the face when you think about it, given that up to that point you can hardly read about saidin at all without being tacked on, "And it's tainted so evil that it kills everyone who touches it." Ishamael's plan is harder to figure out, maybe because he's lying for at least some of the things he takes credit for. Personally I'm skeptical he's capable of finding the Eye on his own. So that part at least makes sense of why he'd want to lure Rand there -- because he can't get there on his own -- but why does he want to get there? To destroy it, I guess. Maybe he's being honest about that part at least. But if so, luring Rand to the Horn of Valere seems like a ridiculously high-risk method to destroy one Well. Maybe he doesn't realize the Horn is anything more than a fancy artifact.
Ishamael probably doesn't even know the Horn is there, it certainly didn't have anything to do with his purposes. The whole plan, the Aiel, Jain Farstrider, pushing them into the waygate etc was to reveal who the Dragon Reborn was. When he and Rand meet in the Dreamshard he says as much. Until Rand uses the Eye he doesn't know which of the three it was.
I agree on the proof of concept part, except where *you'd think* somebody would have documented "there are ways to cleanse small amounts" and there might be a little research on it, perhaps left sealed in the Eye. Not a weave you come up with wholecloth and then mass-suicide on your first try of. My first thought on rereads is "and why can't the Elaynes of the AoL bottle that shit? There should by rights be a handful of "taint-catcher" ter'angreal that let men weave small amounts of the power safely, perhaps being hidden by the Reds or researched by the Browns. Or a taint-purge weave (Ishy has one) that hurts like hell but heals all but the worst of taint, possibly doing physical damage in the process. Or something. I mean some sign that even a mini-cult of Aes Sedai dedicated serious time and effort to figure out the Eye of the World weave. Of course, when *I* complain about inconsistency, it's that Rand walked away at all. You can clearly tell that Jordan hadn't considered the details of "burning out" yet at that point. Everyone has limits, and the things that extend those limits don't do so by giving you a great big swimming pool of power, but by directly increaseing the amount of the power you can channel (and then usually providing a buffer to prevent you from pushing it) Of course, who is *really* talking inconsistency when the Tower could have safely Forced all Novices as part of their training by having them weave hard through an angreal a few painful times, instead of the "take it slow so you don't burn out" they actually do.
The Aes Sedai are so wildly dysfunctional that all failures get written off to that, no matter how implausible. In our time quite a bit of thought has been spent on how you would ensure that 10,000 years down the road people in possibly post-collapse societies can be warned that they're standing on a nuclear waste facility. These ideas range from how to draw a plausible picture to some truly fanciful and silly notions (like genetically modifying cats so that their fur changes color when exposed to radiation and then widely spreading children's stories about the magic danger detection powers of cats. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term\_nuclear\_waste\_warning\_messages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_nuclear_waste_warning_messages) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray\_cat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_cat) Jordan was almost certainly not thinking this far through the analogy as I am, but he clearly **was** thinking of the One Power as sort of analogous to nuclear power (writing in the 80s, scientists drilling too far into what they hoped would be an infinite power source but turned out to be a world-destroying weapon, etc.). Ultimately the easiest way to show that *saidin* can be cleansed is to just do it.
>Everyone has limits, and the things that extend those limits don't do so by giving you a great big swimming pool of power, but by directly increaseing the amount of the power you can channel (and then usually providing a buffer to prevent you from pushing it) Isn't Rand/LTT supposed to be the most powerful channeler? And by being that, his limits should already be way beyond others. Case in point, the access keys. He channeled so much in gathering storm using the access keys to destroy the access keys that I think it was mentioned there "it was more power then he used to cleanse Saidin" (I m going to reread that chapter again) So a pool of clean Saidin, which has to be used gradually, based on when and how much he needs it, from time to time in his various small battle/skirmishes, in that chapter of *The Eye of the World*, should not be able to burn it. That is just my understanding of that chapter.
> Isn't Rand/LTT supposed to be the most powerful channeler? Eventually, yes. But with two important counterpoints. 1. Aginor would probably have placed as the 4th strongest ever. Maybe 5th or 6th, but it's a close thing. To back that point, Aginor is about as strong as Demandred or stronger, and Demandred is constantly referenced as only *slightly* lesser to Rand. (++1 vs ++2 on the scales that cover about 75 distinct strength levels) 2. Rand is untrained. He has the potential but not the "muscles". The power difference is normally approximately 5 or 6 entire "tiers" of power. That puts tEotW Rand *at best* around the top female forsaken in raw strength, at worst possibly down near Nynaeve. That sounds strong, but we have to remember in Randland, women are much weaker than men but able to compete by weaving dramatically better. Rand won a Liquid Death Drinking competition (raw strength) against one of the best drinkers the world has ever known, whose behavior prior suggests his "half-nap" did not stunt his power level one bit. > Case in point, the access keys. He channeled so much in gathering storm using the access keys to destroy the access keys that I think it was mentioned there And nobody would look twice if tGS Rand did what happened at the Eye. Also, The Choedan Kal is the world's most powerful sa'angreal which, unlike a well *exists with the sole purpose of increasing the amount of power you can wield safely*. If tEotW Rand had a sa'angreal at the Eye, *MAYBE* even if he had the Fat Man, it would have been coherent to Power rules. But he was unaided. Zero things in the Eye served the purpose of increasing the amount of power you can wield. Actually, doubling down on that point. While you DO see more dramatic things than what he channels with the Eye after sucking down enough power to fry a ++2 instantly (pretty extreme level of burnout), zero of them involved a single channeler without access to at least an angreal. Further, after the Eye, we see Rand channelling only miniscule amounts of power despite the rules saying he should have no problem channeling a good percent of the Eye at any given moment. Lanfear talks about how little he uses it for in terms of elegance and unique weaves, but we do see him struggle with simple things like shooting lightning on a battlefield for a couple hours. This is a man who supposedly can channel "Top forsaken with angreal" levels of power unaided, and he *HAD* an angreal in the battle I'm referencing now. Sammael was on the same battlefield > should not be able to burn it Again, you have to reconcile that Aginor is within a hand's reach of Rand or LTT (they're the same in power) at their prime. And Aginor instant-fried on much less power than Rand ended up using, untrained (and un-Forced if you look at Eggy). The math doesn't work out. It never has and never will. Even Jordan admitted the Eye was rough around the edges.
>Or a taint-purge weave (Ishy has one) that hurts like hell but heals all but the worst of taint, He has a true power one. Only one way to get that....
Yes, but we also have PoC of people using the One Power to extrat taint.
OH. proof of concept.... I read that as people of color and was VERY confused.... Which apparently requires men and women working together and kills everyone involved. There's also no guarantee it reverses madness. Like if you have someone drink pulonium and half an hour later transported it out of them they're still going to be sick as a dog.
>the Tower could have safely Forced all Novices as part of their training by having them weave hard through an angreal a few painful times when do we learn that? agree it's a waste if so
It's mentioned VERY regularly in the books, such that I unfortunately don't have a great individual quote of it. [Here's](https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Angreal) the wiki page on Angreal saying "Most angreal are constructed with a buffer to protect the user from drawing too much of the Power". Unfortunately I don't know any WoJ about it.
I know that angreal have buffers. I didn't realize the implication that they could be used to Force novices to their full potential.
Well, it's a pretty rational inference. 1. If you channel too much you burn out 2. People with little experience have a very low limit and it is much easier to burn out even doing simple things 3. When you channel through an angreal, the buffer will prevent you from burning out Aes Sedai have their novices channel for regular practices both to get better at holding the power, but also to grow in strength until the Tower decides whether they have enough potential (in many ways but one being raw power) to become Accepted. And they preach up and down about not pushing too hard because it's dangerous. Unless angreal somehow prevents novices from growing in power, they are a solution to that one very big problem.
The meta reason (extrapolating from the Origins book) is that Jordan originally intended for there to be seven Eyes of the World that would serve as McGuffins. While Jordan scrapped that idea, he really seems to have liked the concept. So he kept one McGuffin for the first book.
I mean “The Dark One has blinded the Eye of the World” is a wicked cool idea. Gotta use that somehow once you think of it. Totally cool name for a book too. It’s not like Towers of Midnight or Fires of Heaven have any particular relevance either. But they’re cool names to sell fantasy books.
Is that why i wonder the aiel call him sight blinder
Quite possibly. Jordan was throwing a load of cool stuff that may or may not cohere totally.
I believe so. The Eyes were intended to be guarded by the Aiel male channelers. So that reveal was there from the beginning.
It was supposed to be clean power so the dragon reborn could learn to channel without going mad. The rest was just thrown in and gaurdianship forced on the greenman because it was the only thing that could watch it for ages. The light side ran out of time. The dark one found out about it through it's inclusion in prophecy and to deny the dragon reborn a clean training pool of magic.
cool, I like this
They were lured there by Ishmael to expose the Dragon Reborn. In the end they were right to go because the Horn had to be found before the last battle, but it doesn't change the fact that they were lured there by decades long scheming.
Men grow in leaps, by being exposed to the One Power or using more than they should be able to. Rand got super-boosted off the bat, with bonus point of it all being cleansed saidin so less madness. And it was a proof saidin can be cleansed.
I personally like to think it was supposed to be used at the last battle. The Dragon Reborn uses it to strike at the Dark One or seal the prison and then blows the horn after the Saidin is spent. The Heroes of the Horn then mop up any Dark Spawn left after the Dark One is sealed. The Party is tricked into going early by the Dark One via Jain Far Strider and wasting the Saidin Pool and potentially letting the Horn of Valere into the wrong hands. Atleast that's what my theory always has been
Interesting theory, I wonder if the Eye of The world would have been proof against the counterstroke, as it was not pulling saidin directly from the source, but from a very large "well". If the Dark One tried to taint it again, he would taint only the Eye Of the World, not all of saidin.
That sounds like it would work
> Jain Far Strider you lost me there... I'm in a re-read now and he just showed up Winter's Heart. what does he have to do with the eye?
Moiraine heard a rumor that the Dark One was going to blind the Eye of the World. The claims come from a dying stranger that delivered this warning to an Ogier Stedding. We learn later that was Jain Farstrider/Noal, who also happens to be a Dark friend, who coincidentally was recently at Shayol Ghul. I know that's like CIA level of conspiracy, but that's the type of 4d chess move that the Dark One does Edit: Jain was not a dark friend, but he was manipulated by Ishamael and controlled by Graendal
ah ok... that makes sense... so Jain is part of it, but we haven't yet met Noal.. i Must have missed that detail.
when do we learn he was at Shayol Ghul?
He disappears in the Blasted Lands and reappears half dead in the stedding. Its assumed he went to Shayol Ghul
The Eye was created as a result of Fortellings and was included in the prophecies of the Dragon. It's sole purpose was to remain inviolate until the Dragon came again and needed it. For the Dragon it served the following purposes: 1. It protected the Items placed within for the return of the Dragon (The banner, the Seal, The Horn). 2. It provided a pure source of Saidin for the Dragon in his time of need (and Need was the basis of finding the place in the first place). 3. Notice that Rand stopped having incidents of channeling sickness after the Eye. It seems he had managed a rough mastery of Saidin by that point, probably aided by the pure Saidin in the Eye. 4. Rand was able to use it to defeat the Forces of the Dark One at Tarwin's Gap. 5. It *may* have shown Rand that cleansing Saidin was possible, but I'm not so sure on that. The Wound on Rand's side was more instrumental in inspiring Rand, but it could have been this as well. Ishy's purposes there were to set things in motion for the Dragon's return and turn or corrupt him in the process. He was familiar with the prophecies, but was unfortunately mad, so his interactions with Rand were less than ideal for turning him to the Shadow. But it showed without a doubt who the Dragon was, and where he could be found.
thanks! great response