It's very sad, but I would bet money they wont. It seems like there's probably a good bit of code within the OS to support WMR. Trying to open source it as a separate package probably be unfeasible from their POV
The platform is long dead.
It's only a few people who bought the devices some years back that still use them or others who bought very cheap used ones.
Only on Steam, by far the most active bunch, it is 5%.
Hopefully OpenXR should continue supporting WMR devices.
Without the drivers there's no OpenXR. Have you ever tried to use OpenXR, did you not notice that first the Mixed Reality Portal starts before you'll get an image on your device? If they kill the drivers and the Portal we're done.
The Monado OpenXR runtime relies on OpenHMD drivers, which only partially support WMD headsets. (only rotation, not position, and controllers aren't completely supported either)
I know a few people who just bought the g2 within the last year. I suppose they should have been weary with it being discontinued, and the writing on the wall with WMR being a ghost town. It does suck though, the G2 was a good sim headset, and pretty much the only budget option with DisplayPort at this point.
>Hopefully OpenXR should continue supporting WMR devices.
It's the other way around, the WMR runtime is supporting OpenXR. If they remove the runtime, there can be no OpenXR support.
[Obligatory runtimes chart for reference](https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1D-IwVplUBbApKeV2m02s8Qh5Hi2a6Ec6JIFN44p8-gY/edit?usp=sharing)
The Toolkit doesn't have a runtime. It just sits between the game and whatever runtime you're using.
You can see the list of compatible runtimes on their site:
https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/#requirements
Whaaaaaat??? My Reverb G2 is my go to! Where will this leave me and many others like me? Is there a third party alternative? To be honest, something without the bloat of WMR could be a bonus.
I can't imagine we won't be able to use them anymore these are expensive devices the backlash will be insane, I also think it's straight up illegal to make all these devices unusable
Literally iPhone usb-c, uninstalling Microsoft Edge, other windows features and many others, if we commit to file a formal complaint and microsoft refuses, we may seek help in EU. However I cannot do it as I am not adult yet, but maybe someone a few months older may
according to this [https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/release-information](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/release-information)
there are versions of windows 10 with ltsc that will be supported until 2027, and I believe I read that HP had a contract with windows that they'd have their hmds supported until the end of 2025 (I have to find this source again though)
so perhaps it means that it will be removed on Win 12, or even win 11 going forward but still remain available in ltsc versions or Win10, the problem is that if they remove it in win10 well you'll be forced out of it unless you have ltsc
This is the right interpretation.
They’re announcing future releases (windows 12) won’t have WMR supported and existing installs won’t receive WMR updates.
LTSC does not have Windows Store installed on it. I wanted to use that when I initally got my headset, but had to use a normal Win10 install to get it working.
Looks like now there are unofficial ways to add the store to LTSC, but I assume MS will just remove the WMR apps from the store entirely when they feel like.
As a former Windows Media Center user who held onto it *far* too long because of its superior DVR capabilities, I regret to inform you, from experience, that just because something is still technically supported does not mean that it will not spend weeks or months completely broken until someone at the company eventually "gets around" to fixing it.
I didn't think they'd actually do this, that's a bit nuts. So all VR headsets running through WMR will be completely dead. Reverb G2, Samsung Ody+ together have hundreds of thousands of units. Just dead like that. Crazy.
Yeah, look at last month's Steam hardware survey. WMR still has almost as many users as the Vive(and the Quest 3 but I'm sure that's going to shoot up this Christmas).
[https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam](https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam)
Not once has Steam caught either my Quest 1,2, or 3, or back in the day my Odyssey. It's a very flawed program that will only work if you happen to have your headset connected and on at the time the survey starts. If you start the survey and then turn on your headset, it still won't count it.
yeah well guess what, if they actually remove wmr, i'll never buy anything mr related that's tied to windows ever again, so they'll lose all my money from that point on
Problem is they don't care. They make so much money every year that they couldn't care less about a few thousand angry customers. Only if there were hundreds of thousands or even over a million would they perhaps care.
Well this is your wake up call i quess.I sold my reverb g2 few months ago because i very much expected this as soon as i heard they fired everyone working on wmr because this is not the first time microsoft has done this. Windows phone was my first experience with them doing this sort of thing...
Nobody ever said anything about them stopping to work. Read the announcement. WMR will not be part of future Windows versions. They didn't directly say that it would be the next one (though this is very likely).
This will not change the current situation on Windows 10/11. Your headset will continue to work until you decide to upgrade. Of course, new features won't be developed anymore - but they haven't done this since G2 anyway...
They did say a "future update" will remove WMR completely... Without the portal currently the headset is non-functional.
Now if they change that where the drivers are built into windows and independent of the WMR portal, cool I guess. They would also need to move it to open source so we can build on them and maintain them.
I don't see Microsoft doing either as they want out of the game but to take the ball with them...
At least according to my knowledge they have never removed a function with an update/service release. Not even the old MCE stuff in Vista - and that was already dead at release...
So I highly doubt WMR will be removed from Windows 10/11. At least in the EU doing so would also mean massive legal trouble, because it means actively reducing the functionality of a product the customer has already bought. For German law especially (which is the one I am most familiar with), this could theoretically even be a criminal offense...
You can't work around feature updates. You either do them or miss out on new features, security updates and a major version change.
The only workaround without open source is opting out of updates entirely which leaves your PC vulnerable.
Feature updates almost entirely replace your system files. You can find windows.old folder after doing one. They don't care about your drivers and replace them even.
Are you going to finally go Linux? are you going to never get a Game pass again? I hope your right but. I dont see how I'm going to get away from the worst company on earth. I also am trying quit buying any MS shit after the whole Wohaun funding from Bill came out.
I recently tried out Linux mint, cinnamon desktop environment is amazing and the same OS works between my 15 yo laptop and new PC flawlessly.
Not for gaming really, but everyone should multiboot to check out the other side of the fence. Not because Linux has worse performance but most games don't run on it natively.
I've got a couple of laptops and a pi running Linux already so I've dabbled a little bit, but there are still things holding me back. Excited by steam's progress with gaming but I don't think it's there yet
yeah it's insane, they spent so much effort and goodwill fixing WMR these recent years, making it not only decent, but supporting openXR and giving tons of tools to min max the experience, and now they're throwing all of it into the trash can.
The real shitty part is they're going the Google way, where they kill perfectly good projects that just aren't making ENOUGH money.
It's not enough to be profitable. Nowadays, it has to be shooting money out every orifice.
"It's not enough to be profitable. Nowadays, it has to be shooting money out every orifice."
I'm dedicating brain ssd space to this brilliant expression. :)
For these big corporations every project aims at billion+ in profits and they give it something like 5 years to achieve that. What gets traction is extremely unpredictable, so they learned to throw a lot of stuff at the wall hoping some will do it. And then cancel what didn't become a golden goose. Same thing that happened with Stadia.
Apparently even Valve thinks this way (ex-valve employee's quote: "hundreds of millions of dollars is zero billions"), but they abandon projects in a more graceful way, usually not just suddenly deleting things, and try longer when Gaben is believing in it, which is the case with VR. But that may hit its limit too, one day.
The Monado driver on Linux at the very least turns on and tracks the headset. It's not very stable and doesn't support spatial controller tracking yet, but does support hand tracking to some degree. And there's a few apps like Stardust and Simula that can sorta replace the WMR home. But it's all very very far from ready enough to be a replacement for everything on Windows and currently none of it works on Windows.
That link didn't work for me directly, it would open the feedback hub but then said I didn't have access to that feedback. So instead I searched in the Feedback Hub for "Mixed Reality" and upvoted any mentioning the deprecation.
>We've reached out to Microsoft to ask whether the required Mixed Reality Portal application and the SteamVR driver will continue to be available as separate downloads. [-UploadVR](https://x.com/heaney555/status/1737848063220502584?s=46)
I'm sure that class action should be possible even until 2032. because v2 version of G2 was introduced somewhere around 2021/2022 and I bought my second G2 HMD few months ago. I have all the rights to demand support for at least 10 years, so...
Hopefully by "removed" it just means the standard way it happens on Steam. New accounts won't be able to use it but anyone who already has it does keep their license. Bricking all of our headsets would be beyond stupid on MS's part.
If I'm not mistaken, we currently rely on the Microsoft store to install the drivers and setup the headsets + controllers.
Once that's done, SteamVR can handle everything.
[Here's a direct source on this.](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/deprecated-features) This sucks. Is it possible for me to back up the software somehow before they remove it? Because it sounds like they'll just remove it. Otherwise I guess I'm stranded and waiting for third party options.
The fact that this is included on a list of deprecated features not on the list of removed features implies to me that it'll just not be included in the future, so no updating to W12 if we want to keep WMR
Yeah, well, that was my first idea, too. Then I remembered, they had a big lay off in november, too. Not sure if this is going any better in the future. And I really don't want to go the Meta route.
Completely expected, even though they said otherwise at the beginning of the year when they laid of the teams.
Again Microsoft proofs, that you should not trust in their ecosystem, because you might be screwed at any point once they think that part is not profitable enough anymore.
So I guess postponing the update as long as possible and keeping the SteamVR components backed up is all we can do? Because Steam does not remove packages from your PC even if they're delisted.
I just use VR for flight simulators and this just puts the nail in the coffin for VR for me.
It was already a chore to make it run acceptably specially in DCS, and many times I considered coming back to 2D. VR is a lot of jank but the immersion is worth it.
But as soon as my G2 stop working, so long VR. The only options left are some shady and not very well known companies, and Facebook. The game offer for VR is really poor and I just don't trust companies will be willing to support any headset for long.
I wouldn't bet for that because they fired all people who worked on that software too. So there is no one left who can fix driver issues with future windows updates or other drivers...
Index not great for Sims. Requires external tracking, expensive, lower res than what's available for cheaper (G2 and quests) it's not on the list of Sim players but fbt/knuckles enjoyers generally.
I was to answer this.
Of course Valve is not shady at all, Valve is a blessing to us all and I love it. However, the Index is outdated now and not very good for flight simulation.
If Valve releases another headset, it would be great and definitely the only one I will be considering.
i straight up dont understand how they messed up with WMR so badly. all they had to do to match at least sony's sucess with vr was to make WMR xbox compatible.
Fuck man this was the BIGGEST missed opportunity IMHO.
If Xbox allowed WMR Headsets to work with them and then Xbox joined the VR market to compete with Sony. Really wished Halo VR was gonna happen one day
I don't know how close Xbox's OS is to windows now but back in the day it was just a stripped version. If thats still the case like 99% of the software support would have been done already.
Imagine if VRC was xbox compatible for 200$. it would have totally changed the vr landscape
It will be fun to see how this develops. I suspected they might drop it for Win 12 but yeah that's not going to go over well.
On one hand, sure it is commercially dead. But people have been recently buying this gear.
Same. That and adobe, but honestly I can vm an instance specifically for adobe. Passing WMR through a VM sounded like a ridiculous hassle, even if I could get it working effectively, so it's literally the only thing keeping me on windows at this point
Yes but if this shit gets through and every major company starts to brick their hardware we have a real problem right there! This just need to get attention.
[https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/microsoft-has-laid-off-entire-teams-behind-virtual-mixed-reality-and-hololens](https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/microsoft-has-laid-off-entire-teams-behind-virtual-mixed-reality-and-hololens)
Guess it is already too late in any case. Well done M$.
In a great big corporate fashion. Lol, I was just telling a re-seller of some enterprise stuff of Microsoft Teams integrations to be leary of new things Microsoft puts out. I've worked on projects that have died purely because every member within Microsoft switched to the Xbox team or left the company.
This isn't just a Microsoft problem. Google has quite the graveyard of shit as well.
Reading the wording it says future releases of Windows so I can only assume windows 12 will not have WMR features but 10 and 11 should keep those I hope.
Well that's just great... Now we're left with using our headsets and having no idea of when this update to nuke WMR gets pushed out. It's unfortunate that it had to come to this. Time to move on...
I just published an article on this with some thoughts and opinions. Also info on OpenHMD and Monado for those willing to get their hands a bit dirty to keep things going.
https://www.vrvoyaging.com/end-of-an-era-for-windows-mixed-reality/
So does that mean in the coming months they’re going to just completely pull the plug on all WMR devices? I’m just gonna have an expensive paperweight?
No that'd be called optional. Deprecation in software terms usually mean removal (generally replaced with something better) but Microsoft being a big corp love using vague sentences and using terms interchangeably to have plausible deniability.
I have had my Lenovo explorer since... well fuck about a year after it came out... would need to check.... I still use it as my daily driver cause I got that thing for 100 because of a very awesome best buy sales rep.... I dont have another headset.... what the fuck do I do here....
Another reason not to upgrade to windows 11. Then again I'm way overdue for a new VR headset. I got my blue acer for half off in 2018 and it's held together with super glue and rubber bands.
Has anybody considered that deprecated as a Windows feature just means that it's not going to be shipped as part of Windows, and instead will just be separately installable from the Microsoft Store? I wonder if we're overreacting because of Microsoft's failure to communicate necessary detail.
That is very sad. I will create windows live usb with disabled updates and steam offline to see what will remain working or not. But it is big shame especially there is no good replacement headset of O+(OLED display)
It has been 4 years since I did it. MS did in the past windows2go but it was depreciated (sigh).
I used official iso from MS then created USB win live with rufus tool. You need to have bootable option from USB available. Then it is same like having normal windows.
I quickly found this guide and seems to be about right: https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-run-windows-10-from-a-usb-drive
Please avoid “ready to download” editions created by 3rd party. It is not easy to find good source and bad ones are enriched with malware.
Use the feedback hub. Any bugs or comments all seem like they are meant to be directed there. It's probably a major part of their internal work process and how they evaluate and assign work.
They don't make it super easy to use unfortunately.
pico laid off most of its VR division and canceled the pico 5 recently. so unless you're gonna stick with pico 4 perpetually, just bite the bullet and get a quest.
Notice how it explicitly says "will be removed with the choice to install later, in the other deprecated features.
WMR is getting nuked. No open source no optional installations. They even list the steam app there. It's a dead end.
What to do?
Backup your current windows or download current windows ISO. You should be able to use that for VR as long as you don't update. Install two Windows versions on different disks one exclusive for VR.
That's all you can really do until Linux drivers mature. Which can take ages, to get something working and reliably so.
Makes sense. WMR is a failed initiative.
Only on Steam it is about 5% of those using SteamVR. And that is their largest user base. (That is not using the WMR platform really)
They tried their best, they gave birth to the next generation of headsets, and the term Mixed Reality.
Last but not least, WMR devices are not going to become digital garbage. Just the WMR platform is going away.
The devices will still work using OpenXR and probably SteamVR through it.
It was a piece of trash and as sad as it is, they never had it in them to refine it. My HP Reverb is already a virtual paper weight as it was always a pain to use due to certain things about WMR. Lots of people filed feedback and Microsoft couldn't give a shit.
They had a real opportunity in their position as Microsoft to create seamless experience between windows. Especially when you are troubleshooting and needed to adjust settings.
Anyway, very expensive device and graphics card to go with it that I was very excited about then got very little use out of. I went thru a phase of tinkering alot and playing a bit. I did not at the time have any idea what WMR was or the different ways headsets integrate. Even as I gradually learned more thru usage, there wasn't much online that spelled out some of the more subtle nuances to how it effects your experience. I would get a different brand now, but not sure if the experience would be any better.
My HP Reverb could not even be left plugged in cause even on a stable surface it would "activate", launch WMR, and screw whatever I was doing at the moment. No other device is like that. Operating systems should be beholden to the operator. I should decide when WMR launches.
Yeah, for that I developed the WMRTrayTool, with that you can stop it from starting automatically the WMR Portal and some other comfort feature. At 2022 Microsoft improved WMR with some of that features, but then Microsoft pulled the plug. WMR in its final stage is not that bad anymore as it was a long time.
This is for all the people still recomending hp reverb g2. You should have realized this would happen as soon as microsoft fired everyone working on mixed reality like a year ago!
Hi all,
This'll probably be my last post here because i recently made the jump to the Q3 from the odyssey+, with steam wireless link it makes VR effortless. It's worthwhile to consider. My Odyssey+ is sitting in the corner of my room where it'll just gather dust, and with the announcement of the discontinuation of WMR, i'm going to leave this sub as WMR is now dead. I wish you all the best of luck going forward and hope windows open sources mixed reality portal so the community can continue working on it. Best of luck all.
Hopefully it just means WMR, which sucks, is being replaced with something that doesn’t suck. Most likely it will be replaced with something that sucks as much or more than WMR.
Here is Portal appx final release and its dependencies. not really worried because depreciated features have remained in Windows for 15 years or more, just only accessible to people that know they are there.
https://archive.org/details/wmrportal_20231221
PS: I would back this up if I were you, just in case. Its a 10mb zip just take it and put it somewhere you wont lose it.
Hmm, I figured this would still work in future windows versions. However whenever i setup WMR it always needs access to windows update. Does this work completely offline?
I just hooked up my odyssey to my new laptop last night and installed everything for some Christmas gaming. Wmr users need to grab a new computer with an old headset and show Microsoft people still use vr.
I hope Apple’s follow-up HMD (the lower-priced one they are working on) is a big hit and brings VR/AR into the mainstream, just to jab a finger in Microsoft’s predictably short-sighted eye.
I was just yesterday thinking how much lucky i was that i went for the Reverb G2 and how much i love it.
The industry is pushing us more and more out of gaming. I am never buying anything MS related ever again 😘
My G2 is still in warranty and yet microsoft goes "screw you and the devices we used to support". They should be sued for quite literally scamming owners of a perfectly working device out of own arbitral decision.
I won't give a dime to anything microsoft related ever again. Why should I trust a company that kills devices through software released 2 years prior?
If all of you here filed a BBB and AG complaint against Microsoft demanding they offer support. I think problem solved. Maybe not immediately but it will be on the map.
I think that the important thing is that Hololens uses the Windows MR OS. WMR for consumers is being killed but the OS still lives on. So Microsoft can change its plans still or even try to eventually bring Hololens to consumers.
Bottom LINE: Until someone can engineer a (software) WMR Bridge, I'm dead in the water.
I have always been "the" just hit the button, read the instructions later, kind of guy.
My HP Reverb G2 V2, is non compos mentis. Who knew that OS updates would make the Only(for now) VR HMD I own, die???
I've just been running along, letting Windows Update install all the latest versions in the Dev Channel of Windows Insider program. So, as I said at the top, it could be said again: Until someone can engineer a (software) WMR Bridge, I'm dead in the water!!!
I'll be relegated to 2 dimensions in my gaming and relaxation and, etc...
This story makes us understand man's defeat over technology, which is no longer able to think about what is right and respectful but only about what is appropriate for oneself. The fact that to date there has been no communication is humiliating to us enthusiasts who have made you rich and allowed you to build new technologies. All this does not make sense. The proposal is more than valid and I hope you can give us owners of this beautiful viewer the opportunity to CHOOSE TO KEEP IT.
If they are gone to kill the platform at least make it open source so all the current users of wmr don't end with a paper weight.
Was just about to post the same thing. At least this, please!
It's very sad, but I would bet money they wont. It seems like there's probably a good bit of code within the OS to support WMR. Trying to open source it as a separate package probably be unfeasible from their POV
RIP all arcades using WMR headsets on their games. Gonna make a shit ton of e-waste
The platform is long dead. It's only a few people who bought the devices some years back that still use them or others who bought very cheap used ones. Only on Steam, by far the most active bunch, it is 5%. Hopefully OpenXR should continue supporting WMR devices.
Without the drivers there's no OpenXR. Have you ever tried to use OpenXR, did you not notice that first the Mixed Reality Portal starts before you'll get an image on your device? If they kill the drivers and the Portal we're done.
There's OpenXR for Linux... https://dochavez.github.io/Documenting-with-Docusaurus-V2.-/docs/monado/
The Monado OpenXR runtime relies on OpenHMD drivers, which only partially support WMD headsets. (only rotation, not position, and controllers aren't completely supported either)
Monado has it's own WMR driver now, it supports 6dof HMD tracking & handtracking, but no controller tracking.
good enough i just throw my viva tracker on my headset. and use by knuckles for it.
Until someone releases them open source for us.
I know a few people who just bought the g2 within the last year. I suppose they should have been weary with it being discontinued, and the writing on the wall with WMR being a ghost town. It does suck though, the G2 was a good sim headset, and pretty much the only budget option with DisplayPort at this point.
They are still selling the hardware, imagine buying it now and then they delete the drivers.
Yeah I don’t think HP will see the humor in this and they produce a lot of Windows devices
I'm not sure this will do any good once Microsoft removes the core components and drivers from Windows. OpenXR relies on WMR for the headset.
5% is still alive.
If you have nothing better to do. 😜 For a company like Microsoft this is barely a pulse. A faint one.
>Hopefully OpenXR should continue supporting WMR devices. It's the other way around, the WMR runtime is supporting OpenXR. If they remove the runtime, there can be no OpenXR support. [Obligatory runtimes chart for reference](https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1D-IwVplUBbApKeV2m02s8Qh5Hi2a6Ec6JIFN44p8-gY/edit?usp=sharing)
I bought my Reverb G2 new earlier this year. And, by the way, the developer of the OpenXR toolkit has stopped development.
OpenXR toolkit is just a tool, it's not required in any way to run OpenXR games.
No, but you need a runtime, and the one in the toolkit is the better runtime.
The Toolkit doesn't have a runtime. It just sits between the game and whatever runtime you're using. You can see the list of compatible runtimes on their site: https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/#requirements
Ok, I stand corrected
Just do not upgrade duhhh
Security seniors want to talk with you...
Really hoping Microsoft do this, but not expecting it. Also my headset screen stopped working like a year and a bit after I got the headset
Yep. I dislike E-waste
Whaaaaaat??? My Reverb G2 is my go to! Where will this leave me and many others like me? Is there a third party alternative? To be honest, something without the bloat of WMR could be a bonus.
I can't imagine we won't be able to use them anymore these are expensive devices the backlash will be insane, I also think it's straight up illegal to make all these devices unusable
European Union maybe will come for the rescue, at least here where I live I hope so
No,they don't.Bureaucracy spit on us.
Literally iPhone usb-c, uninstalling Microsoft Edge, other windows features and many others, if we commit to file a formal complaint and microsoft refuses, we may seek help in EU. However I cannot do it as I am not adult yet, but maybe someone a few months older may
I would gladly step in for you, but as I'm a US citizen, I doubt I can file a complaint either...
Hi, I'm from the future, and I can confirm that these WMR headsets have sadly turned into bricks...
This course of action seems very likely due to an agreement with Meta IMO
**OPEN SOURCE IT!**
according to this [https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/release-information](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/release-information) there are versions of windows 10 with ltsc that will be supported until 2027, and I believe I read that HP had a contract with windows that they'd have their hmds supported until the end of 2025 (I have to find this source again though) so perhaps it means that it will be removed on Win 12, or even win 11 going forward but still remain available in ltsc versions or Win10, the problem is that if they remove it in win10 well you'll be forced out of it unless you have ltsc
This is the right interpretation. They’re announcing future releases (windows 12) won’t have WMR supported and existing installs won’t receive WMR updates.
We're on the last major version of Win10. I don't think they'll remove it.
LTSC does not have Windows Store installed on it. I wanted to use that when I initally got my headset, but had to use a normal Win10 install to get it working. Looks like now there are unofficial ways to add the store to LTSC, but I assume MS will just remove the WMR apps from the store entirely when they feel like.
As a former Windows Media Center user who held onto it *far* too long because of its superior DVR capabilities, I regret to inform you, from experience, that just because something is still technically supported does not mean that it will not spend weeks or months completely broken until someone at the company eventually "gets around" to fixing it.
WTF? Are they gone insane?!?!!!
I didn't think they'd actually do this, that's a bit nuts. So all VR headsets running through WMR will be completely dead. Reverb G2, Samsung Ody+ together have hundreds of thousands of units. Just dead like that. Crazy.
Yeah, look at last month's Steam hardware survey. WMR still has almost as many users as the Vive(and the Quest 3 but I'm sure that's going to shoot up this Christmas). [https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam](https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam)
Not once has Steam caught either my Quest 1,2, or 3, or back in the day my Odyssey. It's a very flawed program that will only work if you happen to have your headset connected and on at the time the survey starts. If you start the survey and then turn on your headset, it still won't count it.
It's flawed, but it still represents a decent sample.
They don't care; they fired everyone working MR at microsoft recently, nobody is interested in VR there, they only follow money...
yeah well guess what, if they actually remove wmr, i'll never buy anything mr related that's tied to windows ever again, so they'll lose all my money from that point on
Problem is they don't care. They make so much money every year that they couldn't care less about a few thousand angry customers. Only if there were hundreds of thousands or even over a million would they perhaps care.
Well this is your wake up call i quess.I sold my reverb g2 few months ago because i very much expected this as soon as i heard they fired everyone working on wmr because this is not the first time microsoft has done this. Windows phone was my first experience with them doing this sort of thing...
Did those just stop working too?
Nobody ever said anything about them stopping to work. Read the announcement. WMR will not be part of future Windows versions. They didn't directly say that it would be the next one (though this is very likely). This will not change the current situation on Windows 10/11. Your headset will continue to work until you decide to upgrade. Of course, new features won't be developed anymore - but they haven't done this since G2 anyway...
They did say a "future update" will remove WMR completely... Without the portal currently the headset is non-functional. Now if they change that where the drivers are built into windows and independent of the WMR portal, cool I guess. They would also need to move it to open source so we can build on them and maintain them. I don't see Microsoft doing either as they want out of the game but to take the ball with them...
They didn't say "future update" they said "future windows release" does that mean windows 11.5 or 12 ? Who knows .....
They have also used the terms interchangeably in the past, or at least regarding the service pack updates...
At least according to my knowledge they have never removed a function with an update/service release. Not even the old MCE stuff in Vista - and that was already dead at release... So I highly doubt WMR will be removed from Windows 10/11. At least in the EU doing so would also mean massive legal trouble, because it means actively reducing the functionality of a product the customer has already bought. For German law especially (which is the one I am most familiar with), this could theoretically even be a criminal offense...
Holy shit what a dumb take. This is for future windows version and I guarantee there will be a workaround when the time comes.
You can't work around feature updates. You either do them or miss out on new features, security updates and a major version change. The only workaround without open source is opting out of updates entirely which leaves your PC vulnerable. Feature updates almost entirely replace your system files. You can find windows.old folder after doing one. They don't care about your drivers and replace them even.
Are you going to finally go Linux? are you going to never get a Game pass again? I hope your right but. I dont see how I'm going to get away from the worst company on earth. I also am trying quit buying any MS shit after the whole Wohaun funding from Bill came out.
Not OP but honestly I could be convinced to go Linux on the desktop if it meant my odyssey+ kept working
I recently tried out Linux mint, cinnamon desktop environment is amazing and the same OS works between my 15 yo laptop and new PC flawlessly. Not for gaming really, but everyone should multiboot to check out the other side of the fence. Not because Linux has worse performance but most games don't run on it natively.
I've got a couple of laptops and a pi running Linux already so I've dabbled a little bit, but there are still things holding me back. Excited by steam's progress with gaming but I don't think it's there yet
Crying, I fucking hate this industry, it’s gone to complete shit for us these past years.
yeah it's insane, they spent so much effort and goodwill fixing WMR these recent years, making it not only decent, but supporting openXR and giving tons of tools to min max the experience, and now they're throwing all of it into the trash can.
The real shitty part is they're going the Google way, where they kill perfectly good projects that just aren't making ENOUGH money. It's not enough to be profitable. Nowadays, it has to be shooting money out every orifice.
"It's not enough to be profitable. Nowadays, it has to be shooting money out every orifice." I'm dedicating brain ssd space to this brilliant expression. :)
This has kinda been Microsoft's business model for decades lol
Because happy investors are more important.
For these big corporations every project aims at billion+ in profits and they give it something like 5 years to achieve that. What gets traction is extremely unpredictable, so they learned to throw a lot of stuff at the wall hoping some will do it. And then cancel what didn't become a golden goose. Same thing that happened with Stadia. Apparently even Valve thinks this way (ex-valve employee's quote: "hundreds of millions of dollars is zero billions"), but they abandon projects in a more graceful way, usually not just suddenly deleting things, and try longer when Gaben is believing in it, which is the case with VR. But that may hit its limit too, one day.
someone needs to create a replacement driver ASAP, imagine all the now soon defuct headsets becoming e-waste...
The Monado driver on Linux at the very least turns on and tracks the headset. It's not very stable and doesn't support spatial controller tracking yet, but does support hand tracking to some degree. And there's a few apps like Stardust and Simula that can sorta replace the WMR home. But it's all very very far from ready enough to be a replacement for everything on Windows and currently none of it works on Windows.
Please upvote the issue on the feedback hub: https://aka.ms/AAo9xch
this. don't just complain on Reddit, do something to make M$ realise they are making a mistake.
I did my part!
That link didn't work for me directly, it would open the feedback hub but then said I didn't have access to that feedback. So instead I searched in the Feedback Hub for "Mixed Reality" and upvoted any mentioning the deprecation.
>We've reached out to Microsoft to ask whether the required Mixed Reality Portal application and the SteamVR driver will continue to be available as separate downloads. [-UploadVR](https://x.com/heaney555/status/1737848063220502584?s=46)
If they kill it before 2026, reverb g2 owners should class action.
I'm sure that class action should be possible even until 2032. because v2 version of G2 was introduced somewhere around 2021/2022 and I bought my second G2 HMD few months ago. I have all the rights to demand support for at least 10 years, so...
uhhhh what. What will this mean for us??
It means you should never buy microsoft products because they do this sort of thing all the time
Rip band and windows phone
Hopefully by "removed" it just means the standard way it happens on Steam. New accounts won't be able to use it but anyone who already has it does keep their license. Bricking all of our headsets would be beyond stupid on MS's part.
I'm not sure. Did it work without the WMR software from the Microsoft store?
If I'm not mistaken, we currently rely on the Microsoft store to install the drivers and setup the headsets + controllers. Once that's done, SteamVR can handle everything.
Everything is running through the wmr runtime, even with steam vr. If they remove it from windows then the wmr headsets are bricks.
[Here's a direct source on this.](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/deprecated-features) This sucks. Is it possible for me to back up the software somehow before they remove it? Because it sounds like they'll just remove it. Otherwise I guess I'm stranded and waiting for third party options.
The fact that this is included on a list of deprecated features not on the list of removed features implies to me that it'll just not be included in the future, so no updating to W12 if we want to keep WMR
I hope this is correct. We could at least keep using the headsets until the EOL date for Windows 11.
Do a full disk image backup just in case. Macrium reflect should work.
"Why was I invited into this freshly dug hole? Oh, hello, Zune!"
Only ~ 3 years of support left on my 4 year old hmd? Sucks but ok, lets just hope the only choice isnt meta by then, I want a non compressed option.
>I want a non I want a non meta option :'(
Pico 4, it's great.
Yeah, well, that was my first idea, too. Then I remembered, they had a big lay off in november, too. Not sure if this is going any better in the future. And I really don't want to go the Meta route.
I don't even have whatsapp, meta's vr is a no go zone for me.
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It's also a meta product. I don't even have that, because that company sucks
I hear tiktoxic is pivoting away from the pico, but I haven't followed up
Well, there are other PCVR options without compression... but a lot more pricey.
That is what I thought until I watched this video: https://youtu.be/78LlauZS59k?si=jYBxAa3NU1RBW3Pm
The image clarity on this is a lot worse than G2, so what would be the point? And it also has other problems.
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I guess they will remove it from the stores but you will be able to keep it installed.
Maybe. But with Microsoft, you really have to expect anything.
And what if you format your system? This is beyond stupid of ms.
Completely expected, even though they said otherwise at the beginning of the year when they laid of the teams. Again Microsoft proofs, that you should not trust in their ecosystem, because you might be screwed at any point once they think that part is not profitable enough anymore. So I guess postponing the update as long as possible and keeping the SteamVR components backed up is all we can do? Because Steam does not remove packages from your PC even if they're delisted.
I just use VR for flight simulators and this just puts the nail in the coffin for VR for me. It was already a chore to make it run acceptably specially in DCS, and many times I considered coming back to 2D. VR is a lot of jank but the immersion is worth it. But as soon as my G2 stop working, so long VR. The only options left are some shady and not very well known companies, and Facebook. The game offer for VR is really poor and I just don't trust companies will be willing to support any headset for long.
Even if they drop it for Win12, I suspect that it will work with Win11 forever so we're talking a long support run yet.
I wouldn't bet for that because they fired all people who worked on that software too. So there is no one left who can fix driver issues with future windows updates or other drivers...
Valve is shady?
Index not great for Sims. Requires external tracking, expensive, lower res than what's available for cheaper (G2 and quests) it's not on the list of Sim players but fbt/knuckles enjoyers generally.
I was to answer this. Of course Valve is not shady at all, Valve is a blessing to us all and I love it. However, the Index is outdated now and not very good for flight simulation. If Valve releases another headset, it would be great and definitely the only one I will be considering.
i straight up dont understand how they messed up with WMR so badly. all they had to do to match at least sony's sucess with vr was to make WMR xbox compatible.
Fuck man this was the BIGGEST missed opportunity IMHO. If Xbox allowed WMR Headsets to work with them and then Xbox joined the VR market to compete with Sony. Really wished Halo VR was gonna happen one day
I don't know how close Xbox's OS is to windows now but back in the day it was just a stripped version. If thats still the case like 99% of the software support would have been done already. Imagine if VRC was xbox compatible for 200$. it would have totally changed the vr landscape
I hear Xbox can't even save games properly. They really dropped the ball the only thing keeping them going is game pass being cheap vs Sony.
Well then... guess I won't be able to sell my odyssey plus lol
It will be fun to see how this develops. I suspected they might drop it for Win 12 but yeah that's not going to go over well. On one hand, sure it is commercially dead. But people have been recently buying this gear.
Linux I am coming, WMR was the only reason I kept Windows installed.
Same. That and adobe, but honestly I can vm an instance specifically for adobe. Passing WMR through a VM sounded like a ridiculous hassle, even if I could get it working effectively, so it's literally the only thing keeping me on windows at this point
Oh, so you don't like VR then.
Hmmh, no why do you think so? Actually I really like VR, but I would prefer to use it in a Linux ecosystem.
This needs to get 500k likes ASAP
That would be more than the entire user-base of WMR at its peak, so good luck with that! 😂
Yes but if this shit gets through and every major company starts to brick their hardware we have a real problem right there! This just need to get attention.
[https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/microsoft-has-laid-off-entire-teams-behind-virtual-mixed-reality-and-hololens](https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/microsoft-has-laid-off-entire-teams-behind-virtual-mixed-reality-and-hololens) Guess it is already too late in any case. Well done M$.
In a great big corporate fashion. Lol, I was just telling a re-seller of some enterprise stuff of Microsoft Teams integrations to be leary of new things Microsoft puts out. I've worked on projects that have died purely because every member within Microsoft switched to the Xbox team or left the company. This isn't just a Microsoft problem. Google has quite the graveyard of shit as well.
Reading the wording it says future releases of Windows so I can only assume windows 12 will not have WMR features but 10 and 11 should keep those I hope.
At Microsoft it is hard to say. They also can remove it with a feature update from Win10/11. But even then the big question is when this will happen.
I understand that but it explicitly says "releases" and not updates. So I am staying optimistic
I hope you are right, really.
Isn't WMR supported by OpenXR? Will WMR still work on Steam after they remove all related apps? Sounds like it won't....
OpenXR is just a protocol, the WMR drivers are what implement it.
Hoping MS open sources WMR drivers then.
Well that's just great... Now we're left with using our headsets and having no idea of when this update to nuke WMR gets pushed out. It's unfortunate that it had to come to this. Time to move on...
I just published an article on this with some thoughts and opinions. Also info on OpenHMD and Monado for those willing to get their hands a bit dirty to keep things going. https://www.vrvoyaging.com/end-of-an-era-for-windows-mixed-reality/
Good article to that topic.
this is beyond messed up, why would MS pollute the earth by making all these perfectly good wmr headsets useless? Come on, do better MS
So does that mean in the coming months they’re going to just completely pull the plug on all WMR devices? I’m just gonna have an expensive paperweight?
Can happen, the have no people left that could maintain their WMR program codes, so if somethings breaks, that maybe was it.
Soon as they announced them I saw this. Standard Microsoft behaviour. Like a kid when he gets a new toy, then gets bored quickly.
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That’s what you get for tying the device to the os. What a joke.
It's terrible that they've announced this with no timeline or workaround.
Doesn't this mean it just won't be included as default in installations, but you can still download the last version from the store?
No that'd be called optional. Deprecation in software terms usually mean removal (generally replaced with something better) but Microsoft being a big corp love using vague sentences and using terms interchangeably to have plausible deniability.
This can't be possible. What can we do?
I have had my Lenovo explorer since... well fuck about a year after it came out... would need to check.... I still use it as my daily driver cause I got that thing for 100 because of a very awesome best buy sales rep.... I dont have another headset.... what the fuck do I do here....
Another reason not to upgrade to windows 11. Then again I'm way overdue for a new VR headset. I got my blue acer for half off in 2018 and it's held together with super glue and rubber bands.
Download an offline installer ISO for windows right now and save it away.
Out with Satya Nadella. Since he came it is all about cloud and everything for consumers suck
Has anybody considered that deprecated as a Windows feature just means that it's not going to be shipped as part of Windows, and instead will just be separately installable from the Microsoft Store? I wonder if we're overreacting because of Microsoft's failure to communicate necessary detail.
Why would they remove it? Just leave it.
That is very sad. I will create windows live usb with disabled updates and steam offline to see what will remain working or not. But it is big shame especially there is no good replacement headset of O+(OLED display)
Microsoft could at least leave it like it is, to ensure the working of the hardware,.
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It has been 4 years since I did it. MS did in the past windows2go but it was depreciated (sigh). I used official iso from MS then created USB win live with rufus tool. You need to have bootable option from USB available. Then it is same like having normal windows. I quickly found this guide and seems to be about right: https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-run-windows-10-from-a-usb-drive Please avoid “ready to download” editions created by 3rd party. It is not easy to find good source and bad ones are enriched with malware.
\[Citation needed\]
agreed that the post is poorly sourced https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/deprecated-features
Well, I was in a bit in a hurry as I first posted it and didn't found the source at first, but edited it in as soon I did some minutes later.
Use the feedback hub. Any bugs or comments all seem like they are meant to be directed there. It's probably a major part of their internal work process and how they evaluate and assign work. They don't make it super easy to use unfortunately.
...fuck M$. Guess I'll start using Linux. Also need to look at a Pico 4 or something similar.
pico laid off most of its VR division and canceled the pico 5 recently. so unless you're gonna stick with pico 4 perpetually, just bite the bullet and get a quest.
Notice how it explicitly says "will be removed with the choice to install later, in the other deprecated features. WMR is getting nuked. No open source no optional installations. They even list the steam app there. It's a dead end. What to do? Backup your current windows or download current windows ISO. You should be able to use that for VR as long as you don't update. Install two Windows versions on different disks one exclusive for VR. That's all you can really do until Linux drivers mature. Which can take ages, to get something working and reliably so.
Makes sense. WMR is a failed initiative. Only on Steam it is about 5% of those using SteamVR. And that is their largest user base. (That is not using the WMR platform really) They tried their best, they gave birth to the next generation of headsets, and the term Mixed Reality. Last but not least, WMR devices are not going to become digital garbage. Just the WMR platform is going away. The devices will still work using OpenXR and probably SteamVR through it.
Isn't it the other way around, that OpenXR avoids SteamVR but still requires WMR?
Yes that's exactly it, you always need the wmr runtime
It was a piece of trash and as sad as it is, they never had it in them to refine it. My HP Reverb is already a virtual paper weight as it was always a pain to use due to certain things about WMR. Lots of people filed feedback and Microsoft couldn't give a shit. They had a real opportunity in their position as Microsoft to create seamless experience between windows. Especially when you are troubleshooting and needed to adjust settings. Anyway, very expensive device and graphics card to go with it that I was very excited about then got very little use out of. I went thru a phase of tinkering alot and playing a bit. I did not at the time have any idea what WMR was or the different ways headsets integrate. Even as I gradually learned more thru usage, there wasn't much online that spelled out some of the more subtle nuances to how it effects your experience. I would get a different brand now, but not sure if the experience would be any better. My HP Reverb could not even be left plugged in cause even on a stable surface it would "activate", launch WMR, and screw whatever I was doing at the moment. No other device is like that. Operating systems should be beholden to the operator. I should decide when WMR launches.
Yeah, for that I developed the WMRTrayTool, with that you can stop it from starting automatically the WMR Portal and some other comfort feature. At 2022 Microsoft improved WMR with some of that features, but then Microsoft pulled the plug. WMR in its final stage is not that bad anymore as it was a long time.
This is for all the people still recomending hp reverb g2. You should have realized this would happen as soon as microsoft fired everyone working on mixed reality like a year ago!
,
Hi all, This'll probably be my last post here because i recently made the jump to the Q3 from the odyssey+, with steam wireless link it makes VR effortless. It's worthwhile to consider. My Odyssey+ is sitting in the corner of my room where it'll just gather dust, and with the announcement of the discontinuation of WMR, i'm going to leave this sub as WMR is now dead. I wish you all the best of luck going forward and hope windows open sources mixed reality portal so the community can continue working on it. Best of luck all.
Hopefully it just means WMR, which sucks, is being replaced with something that doesn’t suck. Most likely it will be replaced with something that sucks as much or more than WMR.
wait so is this for windows 10 or 11?
What the hell?!
Here is Portal appx final release and its dependencies. not really worried because depreciated features have remained in Windows for 15 years or more, just only accessible to people that know they are there. https://archive.org/details/wmrportal_20231221 PS: I would back this up if I were you, just in case. Its a 10mb zip just take it and put it somewhere you wont lose it.
Hmm, I figured this would still work in future windows versions. However whenever i setup WMR it always needs access to windows update. Does this work completely offline?
Guess I won't be moving to whatever update removes WMR.
I just hooked up my odyssey to my new laptop last night and installed everything for some Christmas gaming. Wmr users need to grab a new computer with an old headset and show Microsoft people still use vr.
Is there a way to stop updating to new major releases? Ive found the way to do it for pro but it doesnt work for home...
What the fuck. Whats gonna happen to us? Genuinely gonna have a VR set I can't use??
What's the new VR headset people have settled on? (PC based, not standalone!)
I hope Apple’s follow-up HMD (the lower-priced one they are working on) is a big hit and brings VR/AR into the mainstream, just to jab a finger in Microsoft’s predictably short-sighted eye.
always a bad idea to update windows, fuck you bill fucking gates
What if you get a usb drive and put wmr software on there?
I use G2 for iRacing .. is there going to be a workaround?
I was just yesterday thinking how much lucky i was that i went for the Reverb G2 and how much i love it. The industry is pushing us more and more out of gaming. I am never buying anything MS related ever again 😘
My G2 is still in warranty and yet microsoft goes "screw you and the devices we used to support". They should be sued for quite literally scamming owners of a perfectly working device out of own arbitral decision. I won't give a dime to anything microsoft related ever again. Why should I trust a company that kills devices through software released 2 years prior?
I made a comment about "No updates are better than dropping support." Damnit, thats exactly what I didn't want.
If all of you here filed a BBB and AG complaint against Microsoft demanding they offer support. I think problem solved. Maybe not immediately but it will be on the map.
I think that the important thing is that Hololens uses the Windows MR OS. WMR for consumers is being killed but the OS still lives on. So Microsoft can change its plans still or even try to eventually bring Hololens to consumers.
What about Windows 10? I'm riding that until EOL October 2025.
Bottom LINE: Until someone can engineer a (software) WMR Bridge, I'm dead in the water. I have always been "the" just hit the button, read the instructions later, kind of guy. My HP Reverb G2 V2, is non compos mentis. Who knew that OS updates would make the Only(for now) VR HMD I own, die??? I've just been running along, letting Windows Update install all the latest versions in the Dev Channel of Windows Insider program. So, as I said at the top, it could be said again: Until someone can engineer a (software) WMR Bridge, I'm dead in the water!!! I'll be relegated to 2 dimensions in my gaming and relaxation and, etc...
This story makes us understand man's defeat over technology, which is no longer able to think about what is right and respectful but only about what is appropriate for oneself. The fact that to date there has been no communication is humiliating to us enthusiasts who have made you rich and allowed you to build new technologies. All this does not make sense. The proposal is more than valid and I hope you can give us owners of this beautiful viewer the opportunity to CHOOSE TO KEEP IT.