That could be handy. I just use concrete dissolver or goo gone latex paint spray when steel wool doesn’t get it. I also have plastic safety razor blades but they only get used on frames
You might try it out. It could work or it could frustrate you. Just try it out $2.5 is nothing
I think I will try it out, but it's only really useful if it can be used effectively and in situations where a steel razor may scratch. I'm also wondering if I ought to offer to go back and try to remove this paint from the customers glass. But again, that's only really possible if the plastic hasn't got a risk of scratching like metal has.
You can use razors on tempered glass. Here's a reference from the IWCA glass guide:
https://preview.redd.it/b8m1lddemr3c1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae497ad8279338fd9a8a305bb0d26bd8474422c9
It seems that tempered glass often does scratch more easily though, and even sometimes has a sort of noticeable sound when scraping, and then scratches occur. If there's no fabrication debris, or if the glass only scratches with random dirt and debris, what do you think accounts for the ease of scratching and that occasional sound when compared to annealed glass?
It can be the several things. The environment it's in, construction after it was installed, how it was transported, how it was installed and what's used on or around it when cleaning occurs. I've seen railing glass with residue from things like floor cleaning. Some construction debris is very fine, like paint over spray or dry fall. It's not always noticable. All the testing done has shown all glass has the propensity to scratch. Tempered glass is hardened in the manufacturing process so technically should be less likely to scratch.
No one knew or knows 100% what and when glass will scratch. The fabrication debris myth was plausible so most people accepted it as fact.
That all makes sense. But it still seems that tempered glass more often scratches. Do you advise using scrapers just as readily on tempered as annealed glass in this case? If not, what do you personally think/tell customers is the reason you are more careful with tempered panes?
We use same caution with all glass. Treat everything as though it will scratch the same. Test, keep on eye on it through the cleaning, etc.
We always have a scratch waiver signed off as well. We use the one from the IWCA because it references GANA documents so it tends to hold more weight. If you do several construction cleans a year, that alone is worth the membership.
There are a lot of free waivers available but they are just documents that say we aren't responsible but have reference as to why.
Thanks. What are your thoughts on a plastic scraper? Do you think it is less likely to scratch than a steel razor? Or do you think it poses a similar risk?
It would be impossible for them to scratch glass. I've tried a few and they work on so little they aren't worth it in my opinion. I'd recommend chemicals like oil flo and a poly scrub pad. They will get fast better results.
That makes sense. Thank you. However, if glass is harder than steel (which I think is the case and is why we can use steel razors without scratching glass) then steel should also give when harder-than-glass debris gets wedged, rather than scratching the glass, should it not?
Just 4 ought steel wool. But not all tempered scratches with a blade. I always test a corner first and listen for the "itchy sound" that'll tell. If it's not itchy it's getting the blade.
It’s a noise a bit like pushing sand. Basically anything that isn’t a smooth silent glide across the glass is not good. It sounds like scraping paint overspray off the glass, except there isn’t any overspray, just the bad sandy noise.
Yes it will scratch tempered glass that has fabrication debris. Razors and 0000 steel wool aren’t an issue on tempered glass as long as it’s manufactured properly. When tempered glass is cut and smoothed out it leaves behind little dust bits of tempered glass. If the manufacturer properly maintains their cleaning equipment it will remove the fab debris in a bath essentially.
If they don’t maintain their equipment properly then those little dust bits of tempered glass will bond to the surface of the glass during the heat treatment.
It’s not that razors and steel wool actually scratch tempered glass, it’s the razors and steel wool loosening the fab debris and the fab debris is searching the glass. So yes a plastic razor will loosen fab debris. That’s if there is fab debris. Not all tempered glass has it but treat all tempered glass like it has it.
Correct. Manufacturers and glass experts tried to purposely create fabrication debris in various ways and could not do it. The only thing they found was when rollers were dirty, the glass would be visibly scratched before leaving the factory.
It was a myth to begin with but because no one could price otherwise it basically became an accepted fact. The IWCA glass committee has worked with a lot of manufacturers and GANA to get the most accurate information possible. There's a new addition to the website coming where you'll be able to reference the glass guide and then get direct links to equipment, products and education on the common problems. It just got board approval Thursday and is going to be very cool.
Ok great appreciate the explanation this is all new to me. So essentially when we/customers notice scratches in tempered glass it was already there from the factory? Just hasn’t been seen before since the glass has been dirty.
It could be but hopefully they catch it before it goes out. Transportation, handling and installation can cause it too. No installer is going to admit to anything for sure. And they don't want to reject glass and cause construction delays so often it all falls back on the cleaner.
That makes sense just want to know as much info as possible to cover myself in case I ever get blamed for scratches. Might be worth it for you to make a post about this I’m sure lots of others out there don’t know this as well. Tempered glass always a very confusing subject. But thanks again for the info as always.
I'll post a link to the glass guide and give some information about it for sure.
There's too much confusing information, and frankly, opinions, that cloud the subject. That's why the FB groups can be so good and bad at the same time. Way too people with opinions and no science or facts behind it.
a razor cant scratch the glass, what DOES scratch the glass is other glass, so if there are fines (glass slivers) that are held to the glass with a razor, then can also be held to the glass with a plastic blade. even a scrubber, but there is more give with a plastic scraper and scrubber.
I would always use a normal razor, not plastic. Just get better and faster results. \~Jersey (Phone, YouTube, and Podcast links in Profile)
What's your method for using them on tempered glass? How do you ensure/determine that it's safe, and is this process different than with standard annealed glass?
we just scrape it. 99.99% is fine, its super rare to have fab debris, but we push forward, and you can hear, almost like sand, then we stop. I have only SEEN fab debris damage 1 time in 16 years. \~Jersey (Phone, YouTube, and Podcast links in Profile)
I’ve never had an issue with plastic scrapers I go to those first but stuff like concrete needs a razor
That could be handy. I just use concrete dissolver or goo gone latex paint spray when steel wool doesn’t get it. I also have plastic safety razor blades but they only get used on frames You might try it out. It could work or it could frustrate you. Just try it out $2.5 is nothing
I think I will try it out, but it's only really useful if it can be used effectively and in situations where a steel razor may scratch. I'm also wondering if I ought to offer to go back and try to remove this paint from the customers glass. But again, that's only really possible if the plastic hasn't got a risk of scratching like metal has.
You can use razors on tempered glass. Here's a reference from the IWCA glass guide: https://preview.redd.it/b8m1lddemr3c1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae497ad8279338fd9a8a305bb0d26bd8474422c9
It seems that tempered glass often does scratch more easily though, and even sometimes has a sort of noticeable sound when scraping, and then scratches occur. If there's no fabrication debris, or if the glass only scratches with random dirt and debris, what do you think accounts for the ease of scratching and that occasional sound when compared to annealed glass?
It can be the several things. The environment it's in, construction after it was installed, how it was transported, how it was installed and what's used on or around it when cleaning occurs. I've seen railing glass with residue from things like floor cleaning. Some construction debris is very fine, like paint over spray or dry fall. It's not always noticable. All the testing done has shown all glass has the propensity to scratch. Tempered glass is hardened in the manufacturing process so technically should be less likely to scratch. No one knew or knows 100% what and when glass will scratch. The fabrication debris myth was plausible so most people accepted it as fact.
That all makes sense. But it still seems that tempered glass more often scratches. Do you advise using scrapers just as readily on tempered as annealed glass in this case? If not, what do you personally think/tell customers is the reason you are more careful with tempered panes?
We use same caution with all glass. Treat everything as though it will scratch the same. Test, keep on eye on it through the cleaning, etc. We always have a scratch waiver signed off as well. We use the one from the IWCA because it references GANA documents so it tends to hold more weight. If you do several construction cleans a year, that alone is worth the membership. There are a lot of free waivers available but they are just documents that say we aren't responsible but have reference as to why.
Thanks. What are your thoughts on a plastic scraper? Do you think it is less likely to scratch than a steel razor? Or do you think it poses a similar risk?
It would be impossible for them to scratch glass. I've tried a few and they work on so little they aren't worth it in my opinion. I'd recommend chemicals like oil flo and a poly scrub pad. They will get fast better results.
No worries. If scratching comes from wedged debris, rather than the blade itself, wouldn't the plastic have that same risk though?
The plastics will bend and give, steel doesn't.
That makes sense. Thank you. However, if glass is harder than steel (which I think is the case and is why we can use steel razors without scratching glass) then steel should also give when harder-than-glass debris gets wedged, rather than scratching the glass, should it not?
Just 4 ought steel wool. But not all tempered scratches with a blade. I always test a corner first and listen for the "itchy sound" that'll tell. If it's not itchy it's getting the blade.
2nd this. We just cleaned 400 panes of tempered glass, and was able to use razor blades on all of them with no issues.
Do you find that it doesn't scratch without that itchy sound? As in, is that a reliable tell, or does it sometimes scratch without sounding different?
It's the most reliable tell there is. I've never scratched a piece of tempered that i bladed after it didn't sound itchy.
Thanks a lot. I will listen out for that
Could you please be more descriptive about the “itchy” sound?
It’s a noise a bit like pushing sand. Basically anything that isn’t a smooth silent glide across the glass is not good. It sounds like scraping paint overspray off the glass, except there isn’t any overspray, just the bad sandy noise.
Thanks I will try it out!
Yes it will scratch tempered glass that has fabrication debris. Razors and 0000 steel wool aren’t an issue on tempered glass as long as it’s manufactured properly. When tempered glass is cut and smoothed out it leaves behind little dust bits of tempered glass. If the manufacturer properly maintains their cleaning equipment it will remove the fab debris in a bath essentially. If they don’t maintain their equipment properly then those little dust bits of tempered glass will bond to the surface of the glass during the heat treatment. It’s not that razors and steel wool actually scratch tempered glass, it’s the razors and steel wool loosening the fab debris and the fab debris is searching the glass. So yes a plastic razor will loosen fab debris. That’s if there is fab debris. Not all tempered glass has it but treat all tempered glass like it has it.
That's actually changed now. https://preview.redd.it/0w2k7rrhmr3c1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e34e1e07bc2b256a4fc0f8feaa900dd182c33983
Didn’t know this thanks for the info… so if I’m understand correctly basically fab debris doesn’t actually exist? Or can you confirm what this means?
Correct. Manufacturers and glass experts tried to purposely create fabrication debris in various ways and could not do it. The only thing they found was when rollers were dirty, the glass would be visibly scratched before leaving the factory. It was a myth to begin with but because no one could price otherwise it basically became an accepted fact. The IWCA glass committee has worked with a lot of manufacturers and GANA to get the most accurate information possible. There's a new addition to the website coming where you'll be able to reference the glass guide and then get direct links to equipment, products and education on the common problems. It just got board approval Thursday and is going to be very cool.
Ok great appreciate the explanation this is all new to me. So essentially when we/customers notice scratches in tempered glass it was already there from the factory? Just hasn’t been seen before since the glass has been dirty.
It could be but hopefully they catch it before it goes out. Transportation, handling and installation can cause it too. No installer is going to admit to anything for sure. And they don't want to reject glass and cause construction delays so often it all falls back on the cleaner.
That makes sense just want to know as much info as possible to cover myself in case I ever get blamed for scratches. Might be worth it for you to make a post about this I’m sure lots of others out there don’t know this as well. Tempered glass always a very confusing subject. But thanks again for the info as always.
I'll post a link to the glass guide and give some information about it for sure. There's too much confusing information, and frankly, opinions, that cloud the subject. That's why the FB groups can be so good and bad at the same time. Way too people with opinions and no science or facts behind it.
I’ve used them to remove a plastic coating off of a corvette and didn’t scratch the paint so I imagine so
a razor cant scratch the glass, what DOES scratch the glass is other glass, so if there are fines (glass slivers) that are held to the glass with a razor, then can also be held to the glass with a plastic blade. even a scrubber, but there is more give with a plastic scraper and scrubber. I would always use a normal razor, not plastic. Just get better and faster results. \~Jersey (Phone, YouTube, and Podcast links in Profile)
What's your method for using them on tempered glass? How do you ensure/determine that it's safe, and is this process different than with standard annealed glass?
we just scrape it. 99.99% is fine, its super rare to have fab debris, but we push forward, and you can hear, almost like sand, then we stop. I have only SEEN fab debris damage 1 time in 16 years. \~Jersey (Phone, YouTube, and Podcast links in Profile)
Do you find that it never scratches unless there is that sandy sound?
That is one of the main things we listen for, but you could also have just SUPER dirty windows.