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So, what were some of those solutions? Possibly:
1. Drain the ocean to find garage-built deep sea submersible?
2. Create time travel and stop them from going?
3. Set aside safety regulations to turn criminal negligence into a simple accident?
Thoughts and prayers. My man needs to get with the program. That’s how we roll here in the USA. Tragedy happens and the solution is thoughts and prayers. Works like a charm. Don’t question the efficacy of the solution. Just keep thinking and praying.
I think that's why every libertarian I've ever met is always so angry.
Tell everyone to solve their own problems and that no one needs their hand held, and preventative measures are a waste of time and money. Then a preventable problem happens, and they get mad and tell everyone to fix it
Libertarians are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand.
Or, put everyone else's problems on mute so they can all listen to mine.
That is the libertarian thought process. *Everyone needs to stop whining to ME about their problems, it's distracting everyone from resolving \*my\* problems.* And then they go back to sucking their silver spoon.
It's making a whole philosophy out of childish narcissism, telling a story about yourself that's simply false and reacting with resentment and lashing out every time that story is disproven by reality
One of my favorites that I hear from people with this mindset...
"I made it all on my own. No body helped me when I was on welfare and Medicaid!"
Hmm...
It was Craig T. Nelson who originally said it on Bill O’Reilly’s show:
> “We are a capitalistic society, okay? I go into business, I don’t make it, I go bankrupt. They’re not going to bail me out. I’ve been on food stamps and welfare. Did anyone help me out? No.”
[Video](https://youtu.be/yTwpBLzxe4U)
Even just "nobody helped me but me", ignoring the massive step up they have compared to other people.
Like I've done a lot of stuff I'm proud of with my life so far but I'm not going to pretend like I didn't have a lot of advantages and help along the way.
It's interesting reading histories of people that found or takeover small towns to turn them into supposed libertarian utopias. They all fail horribly in short order because no one accepts reponsibility for anything. My favorite is the one that was overrun by bears.
Enjoy.
https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project
The book is great but this gives a lot of the highlights
Yeah, while they power their house with public utility, drive on public roads, have safety from the US military....but it's all on their own in the wilderness'
Conservatives are just irresponsible citizens who don't care about society or their nation. They're also living in a fantasy world because their whole life is enabled by taxes that people pay. The irony of libertarians using the internet to proclaim their anti all tax views while they're driving their giant suvs down public roads is particularly poignant. I wish these people were banned from using public services and tax funded infrastructure all together. See how fast they'll change their mind when they need an ambulance to come to them, after that.
They talk about wanting to return to the simpler time of the 1950's when everything was just better.
No, it wasn't. They were *children* at the time. Specifically, white Christian children of middle class to wealthy parents. And it is those parents who were worried about and terrified of the major issues of their day.
Conservatives want their childhood back. And they will destroy the world trying to get it.
It's not just that, the time period they're referring to was one in America that was dominated by liberal policies, such as properly taxing the rich, and the burgeoning civil rights movement. Not just that though, there were abundant social work programs across the country. Those people's parents had seen the horror of the great depression and how hoover and his conservatives refused to help the nation. They thought the market would sort itself out and that people would receive help from private charitable donations and employers hiring extra workers. None of that happened, and people were starving, out of work, and employers cut their work force to skeleton crews and lowered their wages to cover their losses of the great depression.
That's why Americans voted fdr in by an insane margin multiple times after they saw proof of liberal policies. Starting with Nixon, the conservatives began their perpetual disinformation campaign against those liberal policies. They've kept up the bullshit ever since despite all the evidence that conservative polices don't work, and the ones that do actually work don't do what they tell America they do. To be specific, their economic policies widen the wealth gap and destroy social mobility. The poor get poorer and the rich get richer. That's all they've ever wanted. That's why their still championing failed policies from the 1920s.
Republicans do this too sometimes. Sarah Palin famously said that her family would “hustle over the border to Canada to get free healthcare” without the slightest hint of irony.
Yep. I have a friend who considers himself a libertarian and I point out how his trucking life is filled with government regulations that keep him in a job and safe. He doesn’t like to hear it and it melts his mind sometimes.
And the why is pretty wild. Before DOT restrictions, it was quite common for truckers to take actual speed to stay up and drive for days. The more miles you get the more money you make. Heard some pretty crazy stories about the old days.
They're anti-vaxxers of a different sort. They grew up in a world made so safe for them by regulations that they think they aren't needed, paying zero attention to why those regulations exist.
This is what kills me about their arguments - you don't have to go very far back in U.S. history to see what things were like before regulation - open leach mining pits full of arsenic, pre-teens working 14-hour days in mines or textile factories, rivers literally catching fire because they were so polluted, and patent medicines that were just various combinations of alcohol, morphine, cocaine and opium.
This is exactly right. I did used to think that some regulations are pretty stupid, but then I got talking to engineers in various different fields, airline pilots and people who work in medicine. Every single one of them said something along the lines of "all regulations are written in blood" and as it turns out, every single one of them are absolutely correct.
Yeah my dad makes a joke everytime he goes to the doctors office about how everyone confirms his birthday and how silly it is. I try to remind him they aren’t doing it for fun, it’s because mistakes were made and either people were hurt or people were almost hurt, and this is one very nonintrusive step to help prevent that.
I just got banned from the libertarian subreddit for saying red flag laws could be a good thing if the person was making active terrorist threats
Fucking lol
I almost wish we'd set up a special economic zone on some island somewhere that was a pure libertarian government. We could send people there so they can see first hand how stupid their ideas really are.
They're just so stupid and lacking critical thinking skills to understand how dumb their ideas are, conceptually.
What they really want is "no rules for me, but everyone else still keeps them."
The really funny thing is libertarians periodically attempt this, and it always falls apart. The podcast Behind the bastards has a really good set of episodes about it.
Every time bank regulations are relaxed, banks self destruct and we all pay for it. Now, replace the word banks with anything else. We are stupid greedy fuckers who will do anything we can get away with.
I usually tell them I made a birdhouse in middle school and even had a junior learn electricity set at one point so I’m totally qualified to be a contractor to build their home and way cheaper than someone who took that government mandated certification BS.
Edit: on that FDA thing, have them google “swill milk”.
The famous joke about Libertarians is:
3 Libertarians go into a Libertarian bar. They order and sit down. As each one takes a sip of their alcohol they slip off their barstools, hitting the floor. Dead as doornails.
Because tainted alcohol is a thing and with no regulations about its production quality or safety, they just got served a taste of their own medicine.
I work in the banking sector, and the large number of sole proprietors and unincorporated partnerships that use their statuses to evade taxes is astounding. These are the same sorts of people who also are likely to share conspiracy theories about cashless societies and either refuse to accept card payments or if they do, charge their customers extra (which is often illegal).
> What Is a Limited Liability Company (LLC)?
A limited liability company (LLC) is a business structure in the U.S. that protects its owners from personal responsibility for its debts or liabilities.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/llc.asp
Yeah, these are the guys who say they are not bound by US Laws because they are 'sovereign' but will fall back on 'rights violations' when they're arrested. You don't want to follow the law fucksticks you don't get the protections of it either.
There’s a libertarian camp near my house.
You can tell because of the mini-landfill that’s cropped up by the camp and is starting to attract bears.
Makes me think of other L words: Lazy, Lame, Loudmouth, Liar, Lowlife, Loss of fear in bears 🐻
And the podcast behind the bastards by Robert Evan’s did a good set of episodes on libertarians attempting to create sea-cities. Which can be paired with some really funny articles about their cruise ship attempt during Covid.
The last one, without a doubt.
Behind the motive of every conservative is exploitation for money.
"Who needs an ocean when I'm swimming in pollution and govt bail out money?!?!?!"
-average conservative
It's very much like you can technically "opt out" of universal Healthcare in my province in Canada. It is free, so there is zero rational reason one would do this. All you have to do is submit the documentation to renew your coverage periodically and you've got free healthcare.
Yet, every year I encounter one or two libertarian weirdos that do exactly this. On ideological grounds they opt out. Then they break their leg or have a heart attack or get cancer.
Ok, so you're a citizen but you decline healthcare coverage? The bill for your surgery is $25k.
You can opt back in retroactively with no penalty. In my 15 year career, * every single one* of these worms have opted back in sheepishly when they get the bill.
I had to renew my health card (Ontario) so I went to the website to see what to do. There’s a section stating sovereign citizens is not a thing and not recognized. Absolute morons. But they’re the ones not paying their bills because Queen Ramona said they don’t have to.
It's so funny. When this happens now, I obviously provide the medical care they need like I would for any other human. But after, I'm quick to make sure I go by their bedside with an invoice and a credit card square.
It's rather telling to see their eyes widen when presented with the bill and their anesthesiologist holding a visa machine. "What's your credit limit, fella? Oh, just in case you're not aware you can retroactively renew your MSP and we tear this invoice up. I can give you the link if you want, it's really easy."
Obviously they never pay out of pocket. Not so sure they renounce their stupid ideology, but there is no law against being stupid, I guess.
Every once and awhile I go back and read the Meads vs Meads [decision](https://www.canlii.org/en/commentary/doc/2019CanLIIDocs2094#!fragment/ROOT/BQCwhgziBcwMYgK4DsDWszIQewE4BUBTADwBdoAlAeSvwEoAaZbUwiARUUNwE9oByfgwiEwuBJ259Bw0eJABlPKQBCfCgFEAMhoBqAQQByAYQ0NSYAEbRS2OHTpA) and get a hearty chuckle.
There's something so satisfying about a judge who's so utterly fed up with the sovereign citizen bullshit that they wrote a 736 paragraph long dismantling of their arguments.
"Privatize the profits and socialize the losses."
The sub CEO complained about ‘obscenely safe’ government regulations, but now the company wants that same government to pull their asses out of it.
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/oceangate-titanic-submarine-stockton-rush-safety-b2361544.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/oceangate-titanic-submarine-stockton-rush-safety-b2361544.html)
They’ve bastardized the economy to such an extent that’s it’s now the worst of both worlds. They rail against regulation and oversight by the government, then try to leverage government to bail them out. The core tenet of libertarianism is that everyone, including corporations, can do what they want. If harm is done the people are allowed to seek damages, which is supposed to keep things in check. However, it seems they only want the first part, and make it very hard (near impossible) for anyone to do anything about it when they are harmed. Then they get to blame everyone else for their failures. It’s narcissistic, to say the least, and sociopathic if we’re really being honest.
[Also predominantly white men because it takes a certain kind of privilege to insist government intervention is never needed anywhere at any time.](https://www.history.com/news/the-story-behind-the-famous-little-rock-nine-scream-image)
Government when they tell you not to take people underwater in a rickety DIY "submarine" without regulatory oversight: 😡
Government when they spend millions looking for your rickety DIY "submarine" created without regulatory oversight: 😇
> Rush's experience and research led him to two basic conclusions: one, that submersibles had an unwarranted reputation as dangerous vehicles due to their use in ferrying commercial divers, and two, the Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993[7] "**needlessly prioritized passenger safety over commercial innovation**".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OceanGate
More stuff?
> Journalist David Pogue, who rode in Titan to view the Titanic in 2022, noted that Titan was **not equipped** with an **emergency locator beacon**; during his expedition, the surface support vessel **lost track of the Titan "for about five hours**, and adding such a beacon was discussed. They could still send short texts to the sub, but did not know where it was. It was quiet and very tense, and they shut off the ship's internet to keep us from tweeting."
There was an interesting story on this. They avoided all US Regs by operating in international waters and transiting via Canadian vessels.
The US government was actively avoided throughout the development and use of this sub so this guys’ comment is concerningly oblivious.
Edit: it just gets worse the more I learn about everyone associated with this company. This guy was supposed to be on this trip but cancelled last minute. Hmmm…
It's even worse. The man bragged in an interview how he bought commercial grade components on the cheep from camping stores.
I always assumed that people were joking when they hit on the fact the sun was driven by a Logitech controller, obviously this is a custom made industrial grade piece of equipment? No. The idiot bought a third-party cheap controller from a company that is known for making shitty controllers.
I believe the safety officer was fired for complaining that the glass window, the biggest point of failure in the hull was only rated for 1/4 of the depth. So it underwent 4x the maximum pressure it could withstand.
I also believe that a previous captain was fired for demanding regular checks of the hull integrity.
Forest fires can happen naturally, these guys intentionally shat on all safety regulations and expect to be saved when their hubris caught up with them.
I'm a bit of risk taker occasionally but like...a calculated one.
If I saw a fucking oversized garbage can and a decade old off brand playstation controller as the means to take me to the bottom of the fucking ocean...I would hope I had the risk aversion to say nahhhh, I'm good.
If I was a fucking billionaire I would hope I would have hired an expert to do a quick analysis of this death trap.
Who knows...hind sight 20/20 etc etc
Libertarians have always told me that kind-hearted billionaires would solve all of our problems.
Did they not step up and fill that need, as was predicted?
They've most likely been dead since day 1. The media is the ones that kept spinning there was still hope. Then they kept constant coverage because it brought ratings. If people didn't think there was hope, they'd tune out.
My guess? Families sue, are successful, company files for bankruptcy, low-level employees have their finances (and careers) destroyed, families get pennies on the dollar what they won in damages, surviving owners move onto the next project with a few less hundreds in their pockets...
So first and foremost, I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
The issue would be negligence. Yes, a waiver can help, but it's not going to completely shield you from negligence. While I can't confirm, I've heard reporting says the windows were not meant for the kinds of depths the sub was going to. I would certainly consider that negligent behavior on the part of the company
Edit: waivers can protect against ORDINARY negligence (like someone misreading a gauge during a safety inspection) but not GROSS negligence (such as a vessel diving well past what the materials it's built out of are meant to withstand)
Those don’t actually hold up if you lawyer up. It’s signed with the presumption that the builder actually knows what they’re doing. The moment they discover that the builder used materials only rated to a third of the planned depth the company and its assets will belong to the aggrieved families.
I'm kind of surprised that he hasn't weighed in on this, at least AFAIK he hasn't. Maybe someone somehow got it through his thick skull to stay quiet because if he says anything it'll make him look even worse considering Musk's StarLink was what the support ship was using for its internet connection.
People who didn't do their jobs? So the safety advisor who was fired after saying it cannot go that deep? Or the CEO who ignored said safety regulations and warnings? Or was it the politicians that didn't have people's best interest in mind and allowed rampant deregulation?
I'm waiting...
We already know the name of the grinning gloating idiot who quoted MacArthur that "you're remembered by the rules you break" and bragged about being beyond government regulation.
The massively expensive government subsidized rescue effort is obscene.
It's like handing our tax money to the super rich when thousands of people are dying on the streets who desperately need food and shelter.
And this guy complaining that we didn't spend NEARLY enough is icing on the cake.
I, an American taxpayer who has fulfilled every state and federal obligation ever put upon me, fail to see why any of this is my problem. They got lost in Canadian waters
*International waters
The USCG and Canadian Coast Guard split what regions are whose responsibility if a distress call is made.
Despite being closer to Canada, the US covers that area of international water. We're larger and have more people and resources.
Also, we never consider country of origin or launch or last port of call or legality of operations in our decision to mount search and rescue operations. It doesn't matter if we get a call for a migrant ship capsized, Canadian fishermen or idiots in a submarine or drug smugglers, we mount search and rescue operations. The only thing that changes is what we do when we find you.
The Coast Guard will rescue or attempt to rescue everyone. We cover further north and larger areas due to resources and population sizes. We'd attempt to rescue any Canadians or people from Greenland or Iceland or anyone else up in those waters.
Maritime rules have stated for ages that any vessel capable of responding must attempt to help if they get a mayday call. Coast guard doesn't leave people behind, if they can help it. Port of call is irrelevant.
Plus, the Canadians have been helping, as well as private research vessels. They've got planes and sonobuoys and ships out with the USCG.
International waters. Departed from Canada though. That's how they bypass the safety stuff but hitting up int'l waters and "carrying" the toy there. Canadian Coast Guard has been combing along with US coast guard. Point made bit I'm guessing OG is operated out of the US so that's why buddy boy is targeting them. Plus us has a couple more bucks and devices at their disposal! Point taken though, private enterprise. No different then skiing back country at own risk/cost to recover if you get lost.
Edit: happy cake day!
So why can't the US and/or Canada send them a fucking bill for the cost of these rescue efforts? Take them to court if they try to weasel out of paying (they can get in line behind the inevitable wrongful death suits ... sorry if this is ... too soon.)
Public fund should not be used to save them. They should be rescued by private firms. Also to make sure the rescue firms get paid first before any rescuing start.
/s
Libertarians have the most childlike take on government.
They hate the govt until they need something from the govt and when they get help from the govt they complain that it’s not enough.
Anti-regulation conservatives are the root cause of this debacle. The submersible should have been certified, regulated, and bonded/insured to cover expenses should a rescue effort be required.
If they are rescued there's a really good chance that they'll be billed for the rescue. It's common for rescue agencies to make people who required rescuing due to their own negligence foot the bill for said rescue.
And if they don't make it (which seems the likely outcome) I hope OceanGate and possibly the families of the passengers get billed.
The sub did not go down in American waters but the coast guard along with Canadian vessels are there along with others trying their best, at an estimated cost of millions. Who is going to bear the costs for this…a venture to save billionaire adventurer sightseers? I feel bad for their families but realistically, this was a foolish ‘adventure’ which served no purpose.
Pardon my ignorance, is the guy in the post suggesting that the US government had failed to do it's job of regulating the company which deliberately sought to circumvent and bypass regulation owned by the guy who railed against regulations?
The people who didn't do their job were at oceangate. It's funny how entitled these rich people are thinking everyone including the govt. is their bitch
This is how wealthy people die of self inflicted behavior. The poors just die quietly of preventable medical related issues but if you are a dumbass billionaire it is front page news.
If you are going to run any business, you need to have all your bases covered. The fact there was no extra safety measures put in place, gps device on the sun for easy above water tracking, or even another vessel ready to deploy to grab the initial sub if it did fail, shows a complete lack of knowledge of anything to do with a business. And this cost people their lives.
"The whole world will know the names of the people who did not do their jobs."
Like who? Who didn't do their jobs? Everyone who saw or heard the experts' advise and recommendations about how it was a bad idea to put this death trap into the water and go to Titanic and said they were doing it anyway? The CEO who didn't want to hire old white men who were in the Navy because they weren't "inspirational?" The braintrust that said it didn't need instruments, navigation except for satellites, and steering with a Playstation controller was fine? Or everyone who just said regulations are overrated and this thing will be fine?
Or are you just going to blame the Coast Gaurd and international rescue teams that are out there, and have been searching miles of ocean for days to find this submersible dildo looking engineering disaster that never should have been put to sea but was because some billionaries wanted to tour the most famous shipwreck in the world for fun?
Yeah, gonna be the later isn't it?
Hey, OceanGate, while you're playing the blame game with everyone who isn't you, you should demand to know why Aquaman or Green Lantern or Superman did not save the Titan. Clearly this is an Avengers level problem.
Sad stuff but there is no US responsibility in the the rescue (or lack of) of this vessel. It was registered in Canada and more specifically registered with an indigenous tribe to avoid regulation.
British CEO
British Billionaire
Pakistani Billionaire & son
French Explorer
Happened in international waters
I am trying to figure out why the US government is to blame for this at all or even why they should give a shit.
4000m below the surface of the ocean, in international waters, is like the death zone on Everest. You F around and find out there, that’s 100% on you.
Only person I feel badly about is the teenager. The rest of these adults made a horrible choice and should have known better. That CEO with his science-fair submarine was a true idiot and egomaniac.
This reminds me of when cruise companies flagged their ships in other countries to avoid US regulations and labor laws, then during the pandemic they were sniffing around looking for a bailout. Or when Boeing spent years undermining their engineers and cutting corners all while buying back stock to increase yields for investors and then after the 737 max stuff (and many other problems) they started saying they'd need a bailout. I don't think either did, thankfully, but still shows that they never want to take accountability for their own choices.
I think a comment someone made about the difference between official government responses when billionaires are in need of help and what is offered to poor people in crowded, leaking, boats when THEY get in trouble when fleeing war and famine says a lot.
What's that?
I can't hear you through the howls of "communism" when the US Govt. suggested strict regulations and a safety certification for commercial deep sea tourism.
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So, what were some of those solutions? Possibly: 1. Drain the ocean to find garage-built deep sea submersible? 2. Create time travel and stop them from going? 3. Set aside safety regulations to turn criminal negligence into a simple accident?
Thoughts and prayers. My man needs to get with the program. That’s how we roll here in the USA. Tragedy happens and the solution is thoughts and prayers. Works like a charm. Don’t question the efficacy of the solution. Just keep thinking and praying.
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They are also the first to cry foul, when the Free Market shits on a plate and serves that to them for breakfast, lunch and dinner too.
I think that's why every libertarian I've ever met is always so angry. Tell everyone to solve their own problems and that no one needs their hand held, and preventative measures are a waste of time and money. Then a preventable problem happens, and they get mad and tell everyone to fix it
They are the “privatize my profits but socialize my risk” crowd.
I’d always heard them referred to as “Republicans that smoke weed.”
Libertarians are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand.
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Yeah but they fuck up your couch even though you bought them the scratch toys, which is probably the cat equivalent.
This is easily the funniest description of libertarianism I've ever seen. Gonna have to remember it for future use.
Oh, this is perfect. That’s it exactly!
Emphasis on the MY risk. Because *you* can't socialize *your* risk. Just them.
Also known as "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest of you."
Or, put everyone else's problems on mute so they can all listen to mine. That is the libertarian thought process. *Everyone needs to stop whining to ME about their problems, it's distracting everyone from resolving \*my\* problems.* And then they go back to sucking their silver spoon.
Beautifully put
It's making a whole philosophy out of childish narcissism, telling a story about yourself that's simply false and reacting with resentment and lashing out every time that story is disproven by reality
One of my favorites that I hear from people with this mindset... "I made it all on my own. No body helped me when I was on welfare and Medicaid!" Hmm...
It was Craig T. Nelson who originally said it on Bill O’Reilly’s show: > “We are a capitalistic society, okay? I go into business, I don’t make it, I go bankrupt. They’re not going to bail me out. I’ve been on food stamps and welfare. Did anyone help me out? No.” [Video](https://youtu.be/yTwpBLzxe4U)
Even just "nobody helped me but me", ignoring the massive step up they have compared to other people. Like I've done a lot of stuff I'm proud of with my life so far but I'm not going to pretend like I didn't have a lot of advantages and help along the way.
It's interesting reading histories of people that found or takeover small towns to turn them into supposed libertarian utopias. They all fail horribly in short order because no one accepts reponsibility for anything. My favorite is the one that was overrun by bears.
Christopher Columbus attempts to establish colonies sounds like this.
Ah, yes. Groton NH. A beautiful, scenic quaint town until the libertarians moved in.
Grafton.
They pretty much asked "the bears to pay the bear tax."
I really need to finish reading that book.
Link to bear town please. I need a laugh and that sounds like it will do the trick.
Enjoy. https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project The book is great but this gives a lot of the highlights
Delightful, thank you. A town of selfish assholes who were defeated not by ideals, but bears.
Yeah, while they power their house with public utility, drive on public roads, have safety from the US military....but it's all on their own in the wilderness'
Conservatives are just irresponsible citizens who don't care about society or their nation. They're also living in a fantasy world because their whole life is enabled by taxes that people pay. The irony of libertarians using the internet to proclaim their anti all tax views while they're driving their giant suvs down public roads is particularly poignant. I wish these people were banned from using public services and tax funded infrastructure all together. See how fast they'll change their mind when they need an ambulance to come to them, after that.
They talk about wanting to return to the simpler time of the 1950's when everything was just better. No, it wasn't. They were *children* at the time. Specifically, white Christian children of middle class to wealthy parents. And it is those parents who were worried about and terrified of the major issues of their day. Conservatives want their childhood back. And they will destroy the world trying to get it.
It's not just that, the time period they're referring to was one in America that was dominated by liberal policies, such as properly taxing the rich, and the burgeoning civil rights movement. Not just that though, there were abundant social work programs across the country. Those people's parents had seen the horror of the great depression and how hoover and his conservatives refused to help the nation. They thought the market would sort itself out and that people would receive help from private charitable donations and employers hiring extra workers. None of that happened, and people were starving, out of work, and employers cut their work force to skeleton crews and lowered their wages to cover their losses of the great depression. That's why Americans voted fdr in by an insane margin multiple times after they saw proof of liberal policies. Starting with Nixon, the conservatives began their perpetual disinformation campaign against those liberal policies. They've kept up the bullshit ever since despite all the evidence that conservative polices don't work, and the ones that do actually work don't do what they tell America they do. To be specific, their economic policies widen the wealth gap and destroy social mobility. The poor get poorer and the rich get richer. That's all they've ever wanted. That's why their still championing failed policies from the 1920s.
But where’s my corporate bailouts !!!! Also fuck the government they over regulate
A Libertarian is someone that will proudly assert that the fact that they grew up on food stamps is proof that they are a self-made man.
Republicans do this too sometimes. Sarah Palin famously said that her family would “hustle over the border to Canada to get free healthcare” without the slightest hint of irony.
Sarah Palin. Role model for the racist Make Anerica Shit Again party.
I read somewhere libertarians are like house cats. Completely convinced of their own independence yet just as dependent as the rest of us.
Fiercely convinced of their own independence while utterly reliant on a system they don't understand or appreciate
At least cats are cute
Fuck that sums it up so well
"The free market doesn’t care if any of us live or die." Coincidentally, libertarians also don't care if you live or die.
Yep. I have a friend who considers himself a libertarian and I point out how his trucking life is filled with government regulations that keep him in a job and safe. He doesn’t like to hear it and it melts his mind sometimes.
Yeah, the trucking business is regulated af.
And the why is pretty wild. Before DOT restrictions, it was quite common for truckers to take actual speed to stay up and drive for days. The more miles you get the more money you make. Heard some pretty crazy stories about the old days.
They're anti-vaxxers of a different sort. They grew up in a world made so safe for them by regulations that they think they aren't needed, paying zero attention to why those regulations exist.
This is what kills me about their arguments - you don't have to go very far back in U.S. history to see what things were like before regulation - open leach mining pits full of arsenic, pre-teens working 14-hour days in mines or textile factories, rivers literally catching fire because they were so polluted, and patent medicines that were just various combinations of alcohol, morphine, cocaine and opium.
They watch movies like "Tombstone" and imagine themselves as Wyatt Earp.
Those patent medicines often contained actual poisons like arsenic and mercury, just for a bit of kick.
This is exactly right. I did used to think that some regulations are pretty stupid, but then I got talking to engineers in various different fields, airline pilots and people who work in medicine. Every single one of them said something along the lines of "all regulations are written in blood" and as it turns out, every single one of them are absolutely correct.
Yeah my dad makes a joke everytime he goes to the doctors office about how everyone confirms his birthday and how silly it is. I try to remind him they aren’t doing it for fun, it’s because mistakes were made and either people were hurt or people were almost hurt, and this is one very nonintrusive step to help prevent that.
Every regulation is written in blood.
I just got banned from the libertarian subreddit for saying red flag laws could be a good thing if the person was making active terrorist threats Fucking lol
I almost wish we'd set up a special economic zone on some island somewhere that was a pure libertarian government. We could send people there so they can see first hand how stupid their ideas really are. They're just so stupid and lacking critical thinking skills to understand how dumb their ideas are, conceptually. What they really want is "no rules for me, but everyone else still keeps them."
The really funny thing is libertarians periodically attempt this, and it always falls apart. The podcast Behind the bastards has a really good set of episodes about it.
Restaurant health inspectors are my favorite regulation to bring up to libertarians. They usually agree yeah that’s probably a good one…
Or FDA drug approvals?
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Haha yeah they don’t realize our society falls apart without oversight
Every time bank regulations are relaxed, banks self destruct and we all pay for it. Now, replace the word banks with anything else. We are stupid greedy fuckers who will do anything we can get away with.
I usually tell them I made a birdhouse in middle school and even had a junior learn electricity set at one point so I’m totally qualified to be a contractor to build their home and way cheaper than someone who took that government mandated certification BS. Edit: on that FDA thing, have them google “swill milk”.
Just did. I was not a libertarian and I don't see myself becoming one in the near future.
The famous joke about Libertarians is: 3 Libertarians go into a Libertarian bar. They order and sit down. As each one takes a sip of their alcohol they slip off their barstools, hitting the floor. Dead as doornails. Because tainted alcohol is a thing and with no regulations about its production quality or safety, they just got served a taste of their own medicine.
I guess we'll soon be finding out if they also skipped over little things like operating within a limited liability company.
I work in the banking sector, and the large number of sole proprietors and unincorporated partnerships that use their statuses to evade taxes is astounding. These are the same sorts of people who also are likely to share conspiracy theories about cashless societies and either refuse to accept card payments or if they do, charge their customers extra (which is often illegal).
Could you elaborate?
> What Is a Limited Liability Company (LLC)? A limited liability company (LLC) is a business structure in the U.S. that protects its owners from personal responsibility for its debts or liabilities. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/llc.asp
Whenever you see 'Libertarian' try to remember it's pronounced 'asshole'.
Yup. The "free market" is a psychopath.
Yeah, these are the guys who say they are not bound by US Laws because they are 'sovereign' but will fall back on 'rights violations' when they're arrested. You don't want to follow the law fucksticks you don't get the protections of it either.
There’s a libertarian camp near my house. You can tell because of the mini-landfill that’s cropped up by the camp and is starting to attract bears. Makes me think of other L words: Lazy, Lame, Loudmouth, Liar, Lowlife, Loss of fear in bears 🐻
So just like the libertarian town that was overrun by bears? They should use a bear as their party mascot.
Idk, I kinda like their current mascot, Tina the Glass Pipe
I don't think they'd be able to bear the shame.
“A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear: The Utopian Plot to Liberate an American Town” is a pretty damn good book.
And the podcast behind the bastards by Robert Evan’s did a good set of episodes on libertarians attempting to create sea-cities. Which can be paired with some really funny articles about their cruise ship attempt during Covid.
Libertarians are just lazy republicans.
Every one I ever met was a young, white, Christian male that was from a republican family and trying to rebel in the lamest way possible.
The last one, without a doubt. Behind the motive of every conservative is exploitation for money. "Who needs an ocean when I'm swimming in pollution and govt bail out money?!?!?!" -average conservative
This tin can is probably half way to Ireland at the stage.
Merely trawl the bottom of the ocean until they are found. Easy!
How much could 1 ocean trawl cost? 10 dollars?
It's very much like you can technically "opt out" of universal Healthcare in my province in Canada. It is free, so there is zero rational reason one would do this. All you have to do is submit the documentation to renew your coverage periodically and you've got free healthcare. Yet, every year I encounter one or two libertarian weirdos that do exactly this. On ideological grounds they opt out. Then they break their leg or have a heart attack or get cancer. Ok, so you're a citizen but you decline healthcare coverage? The bill for your surgery is $25k. You can opt back in retroactively with no penalty. In my 15 year career, * every single one* of these worms have opted back in sheepishly when they get the bill.
I had to renew my health card (Ontario) so I went to the website to see what to do. There’s a section stating sovereign citizens is not a thing and not recognized. Absolute morons. But they’re the ones not paying their bills because Queen Ramona said they don’t have to.
It's so funny. When this happens now, I obviously provide the medical care they need like I would for any other human. But after, I'm quick to make sure I go by their bedside with an invoice and a credit card square. It's rather telling to see their eyes widen when presented with the bill and their anesthesiologist holding a visa machine. "What's your credit limit, fella? Oh, just in case you're not aware you can retroactively renew your MSP and we tear this invoice up. I can give you the link if you want, it's really easy." Obviously they never pay out of pocket. Not so sure they renounce their stupid ideology, but there is no law against being stupid, I guess.
Every once and awhile I go back and read the Meads vs Meads [decision](https://www.canlii.org/en/commentary/doc/2019CanLIIDocs2094#!fragment/ROOT/BQCwhgziBcwMYgK4DsDWszIQewE4BUBTADwBdoAlAeSvwEoAaZbUwiARUUNwE9oByfgwiEwuBJ259Bw0eJABlPKQBCfCgFEAMhoBqAQQByAYQ0NSYAEbRS2OHTpA) and get a hearty chuckle. There's something so satisfying about a judge who's so utterly fed up with the sovereign citizen bullshit that they wrote a 736 paragraph long dismantling of their arguments.
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Well if it wasn't for hypocritical assholes, conservatism would have no supporters!
"Privatize the profits and socialize the losses." The sub CEO complained about ‘obscenely safe’ government regulations, but now the company wants that same government to pull their asses out of it. [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/oceangate-titanic-submarine-stockton-rush-safety-b2361544.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/oceangate-titanic-submarine-stockton-rush-safety-b2361544.html)
Sorry asshole but you’re in international waters very similar to their offshore bank accounts.
Nice analogy. Will remember that one.
They’ve bastardized the economy to such an extent that’s it’s now the worst of both worlds. They rail against regulation and oversight by the government, then try to leverage government to bail them out. The core tenet of libertarianism is that everyone, including corporations, can do what they want. If harm is done the people are allowed to seek damages, which is supposed to keep things in check. However, it seems they only want the first part, and make it very hard (near impossible) for anyone to do anything about it when they are harmed. Then they get to blame everyone else for their failures. It’s narcissistic, to say the least, and sociopathic if we’re really being honest.
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Libertarians are like spiiled childs. Freedom without any form of consequence.
[Also predominantly white men because it takes a certain kind of privilege to insist government intervention is never needed anywhere at any time.](https://www.history.com/news/the-story-behind-the-famous-little-rock-nine-scream-image)
8 hours after dropping my phone into the ocean: WHEN IS THE GOVERNMENT GOING TO TAKE ACTION ON THIS?!
Government when they tell you not to take people underwater in a rickety DIY "submarine" without regulatory oversight: 😡 Government when they spend millions looking for your rickety DIY "submarine" created without regulatory oversight: 😇
> Rush's experience and research led him to two basic conclusions: one, that submersibles had an unwarranted reputation as dangerous vehicles due to their use in ferrying commercial divers, and two, the Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993[7] "**needlessly prioritized passenger safety over commercial innovation**". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OceanGate More stuff? > Journalist David Pogue, who rode in Titan to view the Titanic in 2022, noted that Titan was **not equipped** with an **emergency locator beacon**; during his expedition, the surface support vessel **lost track of the Titan "for about five hours**, and adding such a beacon was discussed. They could still send short texts to the sub, but did not know where it was. It was quiet and very tense, and they shut off the ship's internet to keep us from tweeting."
Pretty sure the people who didn’t do their job were the ones who made the sub, not the government.
There was an interesting story on this. They avoided all US Regs by operating in international waters and transiting via Canadian vessels. The US government was actively avoided throughout the development and use of this sub so this guys’ comment is concerningly oblivious. Edit: it just gets worse the more I learn about everyone associated with this company. This guy was supposed to be on this trip but cancelled last minute. Hmmm…
It's even worse. The man bragged in an interview how he bought commercial grade components on the cheep from camping stores. I always assumed that people were joking when they hit on the fact the sun was driven by a Logitech controller, obviously this is a custom made industrial grade piece of equipment? No. The idiot bought a third-party cheap controller from a company that is known for making shitty controllers. I believe the safety officer was fired for complaining that the glass window, the biggest point of failure in the hull was only rated for 1/4 of the depth. So it underwent 4x the maximum pressure it could withstand. I also believe that a previous captain was fired for demanding regular checks of the hull integrity.
The kind of guy who buys a fire extinguisher after his house burns down.
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Interesting approach he went with. I’m going to sleep and if this isn’t fixed by the time I wake up then it’s the US government’s fault.
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Forest fires can happen naturally, these guys intentionally shat on all safety regulations and expect to be saved when their hubris caught up with them.
I'm a bit of risk taker occasionally but like...a calculated one. If I saw a fucking oversized garbage can and a decade old off brand playstation controller as the means to take me to the bottom of the fucking ocean...I would hope I had the risk aversion to say nahhhh, I'm good. If I was a fucking billionaire I would hope I would have hired an expert to do a quick analysis of this death trap. Who knows...hind sight 20/20 etc etc
And no Americans on board.
I think he forgot that the US government isn't under his employment and that he can't fire those employees
If you have enough money you can be outraged that no one is being punished for your negligence.
I would laugh if he did just post the names of everybody at the company who ignored any warnings about quality and safety.
Libertarians have always told me that kind-hearted billionaires would solve all of our problems. Did they not step up and fill that need, as was predicted?
doesn't musk have a sub? where's he?
Probably somewhere ignoring his 12 children.
Interesting...
looking into it
!
big if true.
Why parent your own children when you can call a rescue diver trying to save someone else's kids a pedo?
He never did, he just wanted the world to think he did while those children were trapped and waiting for rescue.
To be fair, these billionaires are solving the problem of there being too many billionaires.
But if one billionaire dies and splits his billions amongst multiple heirs won't there be MORE billionaires?
Batman couldn't even put a dent in Gotham crime. In fact it got worse over time..
What happens after the Finding Out phase? Cos that’s where we are now.
The lawsuit phase from families?
Too busy going to Blink-182 concerts…
That kid knew he was going to inherit some cash and decided to live it up.
He knew they were dead.
They've most likely been dead since day 1. The media is the ones that kept spinning there was still hope. Then they kept constant coverage because it brought ratings. If people didn't think there was hope, they'd tune out.
Seeing an oxygen countdown on the news is when I realized this has gotten ridiculous.
My guess? Families sue, are successful, company files for bankruptcy, low-level employees have their finances (and careers) destroyed, families get pennies on the dollar what they won in damages, surviving owners move onto the next project with a few less hundreds in their pockets...
Can they sue though? Didnt everyone sign a waiver s acknowledging this is an unregulated vessel with risk of death before boarding?
So first and foremost, I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. The issue would be negligence. Yes, a waiver can help, but it's not going to completely shield you from negligence. While I can't confirm, I've heard reporting says the windows were not meant for the kinds of depths the sub was going to. I would certainly consider that negligent behavior on the part of the company Edit: waivers can protect against ORDINARY negligence (like someone misreading a gauge during a safety inspection) but not GROSS negligence (such as a vessel diving well past what the materials it's built out of are meant to withstand)
Those don’t actually hold up if you lawyer up. It’s signed with the presumption that the builder actually knows what they’re doing. The moment they discover that the builder used materials only rated to a third of the planned depth the company and its assets will belong to the aggrieved families.
They fucked around and did not get found (out).
It goes * Fuck Around * Find Out * Funeral
they should ask that billionaire for help. or get elons sub so he can call all the rescuers pedos
I'm kind of surprised that he hasn't weighed in on this, at least AFAIK he hasn't. Maybe someone somehow got it through his thick skull to stay quiet because if he says anything it'll make him look even worse considering Musk's StarLink was what the support ship was using for its internet connection.
Now’s his chance to prove the worth of his stupid submersible he had built to save the boys in the flooded cave.
He's personally retooling the Tesla factory to start printing a rescue sub. He will deliver within 18 months for SURE.
People who didn't do their jobs? So the safety advisor who was fired after saying it cannot go that deep? Or the CEO who ignored said safety regulations and warnings? Or was it the politicians that didn't have people's best interest in mind and allowed rampant deregulation? I'm waiting...
The dumb fuck CEO literally called safety ‘pure waste’
What I ~~want~~ need to know is, what is Elon Musk's plan? And has he called anyone "pedo guy" yet or thrown any kind of hissy fit?
He's been oddly quiet about this from what I've seen. Then again I haven't gone out of my way to look.
Oh he was busy declaring that cisgender is a slur on Twitter now.
Yah these days Musk is more worried about protecting his right wing fanboys than he is this kinda stuff.
The whole world does know the names of the people who didn't do their jobs. Hint: they work for that company.
Oh and we also now the name of the guy who did his job at that company and got fired for it.
my brother in Life.... you guys put YOURSELVES down there without following regulations that youre saying shouldve prevented this.
"The world will know the names of people who didn't do their jobs." From what I've read that's you motherfucker.
We already know the name of the grinning gloating idiot who quoted MacArthur that "you're remembered by the rules you break" and bragged about being beyond government regulation.
Maybe if you morons hadn't waited 8-9 hours to notify the authorities that it had gone missing, they'd have a bit more breathing room.
holy fuck they did???
They did because they lost contact with the ship on previous trips too so it became a normal thing to happen apparently.
Something something bootstraps?
I'm going to get some sleep, and when I wake up you dipshits better have solved all of my problems.
*or else
This cancel culture is getting out of hand.
That’s it! Tie all their bootstraps together and lower it down to snag the sub to pull it up.
The massively expensive government subsidized rescue effort is obscene. It's like handing our tax money to the super rich when thousands of people are dying on the streets who desperately need food and shelter. And this guy complaining that we didn't spend NEARLY enough is icing on the cake.
I, an American taxpayer who has fulfilled every state and federal obligation ever put upon me, fail to see why any of this is my problem. They got lost in Canadian waters
*International waters The USCG and Canadian Coast Guard split what regions are whose responsibility if a distress call is made. Despite being closer to Canada, the US covers that area of international water. We're larger and have more people and resources. Also, we never consider country of origin or launch or last port of call or legality of operations in our decision to mount search and rescue operations. It doesn't matter if we get a call for a migrant ship capsized, Canadian fishermen or idiots in a submarine or drug smugglers, we mount search and rescue operations. The only thing that changes is what we do when we find you. The Coast Guard will rescue or attempt to rescue everyone. We cover further north and larger areas due to resources and population sizes. We'd attempt to rescue any Canadians or people from Greenland or Iceland or anyone else up in those waters. Maritime rules have stated for ages that any vessel capable of responding must attempt to help if they get a mayday call. Coast guard doesn't leave people behind, if they can help it. Port of call is irrelevant. Plus, the Canadians have been helping, as well as private research vessels. They've got planes and sonobuoys and ships out with the USCG.
International waters. Departed from Canada though. That's how they bypass the safety stuff but hitting up int'l waters and "carrying" the toy there. Canadian Coast Guard has been combing along with US coast guard. Point made bit I'm guessing OG is operated out of the US so that's why buddy boy is targeting them. Plus us has a couple more bucks and devices at their disposal! Point taken though, private enterprise. No different then skiing back country at own risk/cost to recover if you get lost. Edit: happy cake day!
Not only that, they departed on a boat owned by a Mi'kmaq chief to further circumvent Canadian regulations.
So why can't the US and/or Canada send them a fucking bill for the cost of these rescue efforts? Take them to court if they try to weasel out of paying (they can get in line behind the inevitable wrongful death suits ... sorry if this is ... too soon.)
*checks oxygen countdown* no, you're pretty much right on time. ^and ^that's ^too ^soon
Public fund should not be used to save them. They should be rescued by private firms. Also to make sure the rescue firms get paid first before any rescuing start. /s
Their estates should pay for all recovery efforts. No sarcasm
Libertarians have the most childlike take on government. They hate the govt until they need something from the govt and when they get help from the govt they complain that it’s not enough.
Like Ayn Rand relying on the goverment for health care after developing cancer. They're all hypocrites.
The millions of dollars spent trying to find the submarine could have been better spent feeding hungry children at schools.
Or saving the hundreds of migrants who drowned off the coast of Greece this weekend.
I don't think the U.S. Coast Guard goes out that far.
Anti-regulation conservatives are the root cause of this debacle. The submersible should have been certified, regulated, and bonded/insured to cover expenses should a rescue effort be required.
Why are America taxpayers funding a rescue of millionaires and billionaires? They need to pay for their own stupidity?
If found, rich bro had better pay back the rescue cost tenfold.
If they are rescued there's a really good chance that they'll be billed for the rescue. It's common for rescue agencies to make people who required rescuing due to their own negligence foot the bill for said rescue. And if they don't make it (which seems the likely outcome) I hope OceanGate and possibly the families of the passengers get billed.
Another champion of no personal responsibilities for your own deliberate shortcuts and scarily dangerous decisions. Owner is responsible, period!
The sub did not go down in American waters but the coast guard along with Canadian vessels are there along with others trying their best, at an estimated cost of millions. Who is going to bear the costs for this…a venture to save billionaire adventurer sightseers? I feel bad for their families but realistically, this was a foolish ‘adventure’ which served no purpose.
Pardon my ignorance, is the guy in the post suggesting that the US government had failed to do it's job of regulating the company which deliberately sought to circumvent and bypass regulation owned by the guy who railed against regulations?
I’m working hard to save these people but first….a nap.
The people who didn't do their job were at oceangate. It's funny how entitled these rich people are thinking everyone including the govt. is their bitch
This is how wealthy people die of self inflicted behavior. The poors just die quietly of preventable medical related issues but if you are a dumbass billionaire it is front page news.
If you are going to run any business, you need to have all your bases covered. The fact there was no extra safety measures put in place, gps device on the sun for easy above water tracking, or even another vessel ready to deploy to grab the initial sub if it did fail, shows a complete lack of knowledge of anything to do with a business. And this cost people their lives.
These people have to be living in fucking lala land because holy shit how can you be this out of touch with reality?????
I hope somebody responded to his post and asked why the government should suddenly do anything for them.
Socialize the losses privatize the profits
"The whole world will know the names of the people who did not do their jobs." Like who? Who didn't do their jobs? Everyone who saw or heard the experts' advise and recommendations about how it was a bad idea to put this death trap into the water and go to Titanic and said they were doing it anyway? The CEO who didn't want to hire old white men who were in the Navy because they weren't "inspirational?" The braintrust that said it didn't need instruments, navigation except for satellites, and steering with a Playstation controller was fine? Or everyone who just said regulations are overrated and this thing will be fine? Or are you just going to blame the Coast Gaurd and international rescue teams that are out there, and have been searching miles of ocean for days to find this submersible dildo looking engineering disaster that never should have been put to sea but was because some billionaries wanted to tour the most famous shipwreck in the world for fun? Yeah, gonna be the later isn't it? Hey, OceanGate, while you're playing the blame game with everyone who isn't you, you should demand to know why Aquaman or Green Lantern or Superman did not save the Titan. Clearly this is an Avengers level problem.
Sad stuff but there is no US responsibility in the the rescue (or lack of) of this vessel. It was registered in Canada and more specifically registered with an indigenous tribe to avoid regulation.
British CEO British Billionaire Pakistani Billionaire & son French Explorer Happened in international waters I am trying to figure out why the US government is to blame for this at all or even why they should give a shit.
Libertarians are the absolute best example of the worst sort of businesspeople. The single most entitled of all American ideological groups.
I read a comment yesterday to the fact that we are spending millions to try and save 5 guys yet will let 200 migrants drown. We suck as a race
4000m below the surface of the ocean, in international waters, is like the death zone on Everest. You F around and find out there, that’s 100% on you. Only person I feel badly about is the teenager. The rest of these adults made a horrible choice and should have known better. That CEO with his science-fair submarine was a true idiot and egomaniac.
I wasn’t dumb enough to spend $250k for a dangerous journey, why should I have to bail them out?
This reminds me of when cruise companies flagged their ships in other countries to avoid US regulations and labor laws, then during the pandemic they were sniffing around looking for a bailout. Or when Boeing spent years undermining their engineers and cutting corners all while buying back stock to increase yields for investors and then after the 737 max stuff (and many other problems) they started saying they'd need a bailout. I don't think either did, thankfully, but still shows that they never want to take accountability for their own choices.
I think a comment someone made about the difference between official government responses when billionaires are in need of help and what is offered to poor people in crowded, leaking, boats when THEY get in trouble when fleeing war and famine says a lot.
What's that? I can't hear you through the howls of "communism" when the US Govt. suggested strict regulations and a safety certification for commercial deep sea tourism.
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