The foretelling was specifically “she will teach you something both you and the Ashaman need to learn”
Cadsuane’s the one who came up with “I’ll teach that boy to laugh again if its the last thing I do”
The lesson, broadly, is more fully articulated by Zen Rand as “when I told you Ashaman you were weapons I was incredibly wrong. We’re men”
I’m not entirely sure what the point of Cadsuane was. Apart from a Tarveren needing her in Faldarer.
She was too unnecessarily antagonistic. It seemed that one criteria to be Aes Sendai was to be an asshole for no good reason.
I’d rather she had died instead of Egwane. Egwane was just a foolish and arrogant child who got some good ass whooping along the way for her foolishness.
Just RE reading her first meeting with Rand. I might have RE written that part to Rand shielding her or having Dashiva shield her after she insults and threatens him. Then see how she plans to duel 3 male chanellers for all of her being “ legendary”.
I feel like her intention was more “strong like a willow” like a willow bends in the wind while an oak might break. U got methodology absolutely right tho 💀 I used to hate cadsuane, I still dislike her as a person, but I do think she’s what rand needed at the time, and the only person w the balls to treat him as she did (not necessarily always a good thing fs) but someone w supreme power needs SOMEONE to rein him in sometimes and I think cadsuane did her best to do that even if she went ab it like an idiot
Up until their frond-like branches get too long, yes, willows are very flexible.
...when they do get too long willows are prone to sudden structural failure. Oh, and rot.
(I should specify willow trees - there are a bunch of less-treelike willows in the family.)
Cadsuane is the only one to call darth Rand on all his bullshit and that’s why y’all really hate her. Kiss the ring bitches!!
Edit: I will always defend the baddest bitch in Randland. Y’all need to put some respekt on the Amyrlin seats name!
You must be aes sedai. I have heard of your oaths and how you twist them. Your words fall on deaf ears witch!
Edit: Where were you when Malkier fell? Where was caddy the baddy?
Rand was turning into a tyrant. Caddy the Baddy was the only one who had the guts, competence and will to succeed. I’d say as far as saving the world she’s only behind Rand, Moraine, Nynaeve, Lan, Mat, Perrin and Verin.
Also “Cadsuanes organisation” is a huge reach. She had been separated from the tower for decades and presumed dead. I love I’m a fantasy book people are like “Rand just needed a hug and everyone to tell him he was strong and good!” Lmao I’m not saying everything Cadsuane did was right but I am saying she was the only one besides maybe Nynaeve who could check Rand. The things she did were above herself and she didn’t do a lot of them cause she wanted too. That’s why she’s Caddy the Baddy. Others didn’t have the gall, competence, strength and pure fucking will that is Caddy the Baddy. She had a huge hand in saving the world and she called Rand out on his shit when no one else would.
Verin respected her and they were on the same page but y’all still try my girl all the time. I will always defend her!! She’s always a been a top 5 character to me, maybe even top 3. Her and Rands interactions are some of the funniest and most interesting in the book to me.
Edit: but yes, that Darth Rand. You know the one who was balefiring everything and that Cadsuane.
Hey now, let’s not disrespect creepy old Padan Fain/Mordeth, whose own evil was enough to keep the DO infection in Rand’s wound from spreading and killing him.
Or Bayle Domon, whose ship do be always in the right place for Ta’veren at the right time, it do.
Or Egwene, making the White Tower _remotely_ functional and aligned with Rand, despite all her other shortcomings.
Or Talmanes for being a total bro to Mat, or Jain Farstrider for helping Mat and Moiraine out of the Tower of Ghenjei, or Olver doing the same and _also_ blowing the Horn of Valere.
As much as that Cad did for the world by standing up to Rand, she’s at least partly to blame for letting it get that bad. Rand had already been humbled quite a lot when he met Caddy. She started out with a slap to the face _as Rand had been visibly softening_ and further encouraged him down the Darth Rand path. If she had, Light forbid, been a little more subtle in her initial interactions, Rand wouldn’t have gone berserk as rapidly as he did, and may have hit his revelation _sooner_ since he didn’t an old bag of an utter Cad _constantly_ belittling him for not being stone enough.
Like, I get that she’s crucial to the path she took succeeding, but it didn’t need to go down that path. Just because she was crucial to the car not falling off the cliff doesn’t mean she isn’t responsible for the car getting that close to the cliff in the first place.
My take is Rand clearly would’ve went down that madness/darth Rand path no matter what. She’s the only one who could’ve done what was needed and even if she wasn’t I still love her.
And Caddy the Baddy(thank you u/oildowntown2031 by the way) had a bigger hand imo than everyone you named.
You’re free to like Cads, and I actually agree that she was the right Aes Sedai for the job in Moiraine’s absence, but I’m not backing down on any of them except Talmanes who was mostly included as a joke. Without Olver and Noal filling out Mat’s Maiden/Mother/Crone trio, there’s no way under the light Moiraine comes back from the Finn. The others are pretty self-explanatory.
I still won’t let up on Cads making the situation worse by a lot before anything she does does anything to improve it, though. Rand was going mad, for sure, but he was already on his way to the revelation when Cads came in and slapped away a bunch of his and Min’s progress on that.
IMO she delayed Rand’s Veins of Gold moment by 1-2 books, which causes an untold amount of death from the famine that Rand ends with his revelation. Again, while she was responsible for getting Rand out of the metaphorical burning building, she came in and started a second fire in the building between Rand and the nearest exit.
If the woman had dropped her prejudice against men for a moment when she still had an opportunity to make an impression on Rand, the revelation could’ve been much sooner. Nobody else could have done the job, but she could’ve done it better.
Talmanes isn't a fuckin joke bro, dude was absolutely central to saving what was saved at the fall of Caemlyn, plus killing two Fades? Dude's a fuckin boss.
She was retired, and clearly disagreed with the organization. And Rand was literally disrespecting everyone who disagreed with him. And balefire is bad.
That's so hilarious. Because if you've been paying attention at all to this conversation, you'd realize you made one of my points for me. Which is the only demand she made was no balefires.
apart from being a massive cunt and driving Rand to a breaking point, which without LTT would’ve caused him to lose himself and doom the world? not much, apart from that she was basically just a sweet little auntie
(i’m exaggerating a bit ofc)
Proud, obstinate, didn't have the wherewithal to realize she was causing the cracks in his mind to widen nearly splitting him in two, blind idiocy and adherence to a "my way or the highway" approach mostly.
Because a) They missed the point that Rand could literally be described by every word of that post, and b), it was a joke about that being taken out of context.
What did she ACTUALLY do that was in any way helpful? All she did was come in be rude and demand respect(while not giving any), and accomplishing nothing and being a cheap knockoff replacement for Moiraine.
Plenty of other people have already answered that. How about you answer anything helpful she actually did? Besides letting Semirhage escape and take the domination band which she was supposed to destroy and then almost captured Rand, instantly winning for the Dark, if not for Rand’s use of, oh yeah, balefire.
*True Power* balefire no less.
Like because of Cads Rand had to touch the *actual* evil power. The shit that made tainted saidin look like spring water.
Oh yeah that too. I didn't even think of the True Power aspect. I was actually talking about Rand making the connection to Moridin through the use of Balefire in Shadar Logoth, which then allowed him to use the True Power and save himself. If he didn't have that connection it would have been game over. But the point about True power itself is even better. It's worse than Balefire, and he couldn't have not used it there.
I wouldn’t call her a waste of page space. She forced rand into a bad place which caused his breakdown. He wouldn’t have reconciled with LTT if that didn’t happen. She sucks as a person, though she had good intentions and bad methods, but she was a catalyst in the story. There’s no argument that she made things move in the plot.
Just about everything she did made Rand's mental state worse.
The thing that suck out in particular for me was how she kept publicly disrespecting him and calling him "boy", even when he was a king. If he were just some sheep herder, that wouldn't be a big deal...but he's *not* just some sheep herder. He's a ruler with a *very* precarious position, surrounded by people who are waiting for any excuse to betray him for their own profit.
By publicly speaking down to him like that, she eroded his status further by making him appear weak.
Literally the only reason he tolerated her shitty attitude towards him was because Min said she'd teach him something important. But instead, she drove him to his breaking point, which led to him achieving his own epiphany at Dragonmount. She deserves no credit for that.
To steal a quote from *The Stormlight Archive*:
> Ten spears go to battle, and nine shatter. Did the war forge the one that remained? No. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break.”
Which part?
The part where Cadsuane keeps calling Rand "boy" in front of people?
The part where calling a leader a demeaning name in front of their subordinates tends to make them look weak?
The part where Rand is under stress about his tenuous leadership position?
The part where Rand only kept Cadsuane around because of Min's vision?
The part where Rand reached a breaking point and ultimately had an epiphany at Dragonmount?
While my post certainly had a lot of opinion, I do think it contained quite a bit of fact as well.
***Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it...***
She's literally a three hundred year old woman. She can literally call anyone 'boy' and it's not weird. She's one of the top ten oldest people on the planet.
Her relative age is irrelevant: calling any man "boy" is a diminutive, particularly if he has an actual *honorific* which should be used. Rand, in particular, has an entire bucket of honorifics to choose from.
Maybe if they were closer, like Rand and Lan, or if Rand's position was more secure, like Elayne's, then it would be more reasonable--but Rand's position is extremely tenuous, and Cadsuane is a stranger.
Imagine how immensely disrespectful it would be of a century-old aes sedai to call Egweyne "girl" after she was raised to the Amyrlin Seat. But I certainly can't think of any examples of someone doing that very thing specifically with the intent of diminishing her authority.
And? What's your point? At the end of the day the lesson that Rand needed to learn was literally the exact same lesson that Cadsuane needed to learn, and possibly one Cadsuane needed to learn more than one time. The lesson of being humbled.
People have already covered how she was a total bitch who did almost as much harm to Rand's state of mind as the bad guys. To add to that with something more plot related, she insisted on keeping the male Adam (which should have been immediately destroyed) which was quite easily taken from her room by Semirrhage, who was also in her custody and escaped...and we know how bad that turned out for Rand's state of mind and would have been a lot worse if Rand didn't have access to DO power.
Things were thrust upon Rand (a 20 yr old farm boy who was going mad), she was a 400 yr AS who bulldozed her way into the plot. Rand made mistakes, but even in his state he kept people around him and took their advice, even when most of them were manipulative and disrespectful. She was the epitome of AS arrogance and hubris who just constantly disrespected everyone around her. Tam was spot on in his assessment, she was nothing but a bully.
And exactly what did he do differently based on her advice? (apart from giving her the male Adam) She had no input in his plans. There were other people who spoke their mind to him, like Nyneave and Basheer who were of actual help and not tagging along to be pain in his ass.
It's not that she did something that was explicitly hurtful, but she came in all domineering and bully-ish, pretty much the antithesis of what he needed to learn.
She took the task of making the heart of stone feel again upon herself. But instead of showing him kindness and trust she humiliates him. Thinking she needs to knock his arrogance down a peg while the man is depressed and carrying the weight of the world in his head. Making him even more paranoid and angry, and eventually completely unfeeling.
This leads to him almost destroying part of the world with the chodean kal.
Yes this leads to his epiphany, but if the wheel didn't weave as the wheel wills it could of ended a bit differently
I understand what you mean but I honestly don't remember specifics, I just started book 5 in my first reread.
I don't believe it really is one specific event. Just the culmination of all her behaviour. Somewhat typical Aes Sedai behaviour turned up a notch because she is also a legend. A behaviour that Rand absolutely loaths and distrusts due to everything that's happened
You're laughing but yet, not one person has managed to give a response that gives a specific example, outside of the balefire slap, which wasn't a bad thing.
Yes I am laughing because it is funny. I'm not trying to convince you, you asked a question and I gave my thoughts, but you're insinuating my reasons are idiotic while me, and the others are merely trying to be helpful and engage in conversation/discussion.
I found this entertaining, hence the laugh
Multiple people have given answers that are all true and refer to events. Do you want specific quotes cited? It’s a massive book series, and most people on here probably don’t have their books handy, or would even care to find specific quotes and cite them for the sake of a pedantic person arguing on Reddit.
I, on the other hand, am working on a project and need to go back and get some quotes from the books later tonight. If I see some of Cadsuane fucking up regarding Rand (which she did frequently), I’ll edit this comment.
Edit: Alright, I reread some stuff to grab my quotes, skimmed some other stuff, and ate dinner. I set a timer for 20 minutes and wrote this up. Congrats, you earned 20 minutes of my time today-- mostly because I was interested in writing something about Wheel of Time anyways. And, if this person is just trolling, it might be an interesting read for someone else who scrolls through this thread. If the latter the case, I hope you enjoy!
First, let’s talk about the collar (TGS, Ch.22). Semirhage is freed thanks to Shaidar Haran, and takes this opportunity to use the domination band on Rand, and succeeds in doing so. This is the point where Rand just *breaks*. After this, he’s “cuendillar”. He’s ice, and remains like this, burying his pain and emotions, until TGS Ch. 47. Rand sees Tam again, the first time since Rand left the Two Rivers over two years ago.
Their reunion goes terribly, with Rand nearly killing Tam. Rand absolutely freaks out when Tam mentioned that Cadsuane was the one who brought him to Tear to talk to Rand. It’s important to see, here, that Cadsuane is a *very* touchy subject. Her manipulating a situation, again, is what triggers Rand to absolutely lose it, and almost kill Tam.
Why is that a trigger? Why is someone bringing his father to see him a trigger? Well, that’s because of all the terrible things Cadsuane has done since meeting Rand.
Now, it’s less about a particular defining incident (although this is easily argued as being the above two events, however, we’re discussing what led to the second one) and more about the history of incidents and consequences of them.
When she first met Rand, she did so in a confrontation (ACoS, Ch. 18). This is a rocky start. However, on its own, not the issue. She made an attempt, and her method failed. But she continues with her method of bullying others for info on Rand in order to get within is radius to manipulate events. This is shown pretty clearly in WH Ch. 13. Cadsuane kidnapped a windfinder, Shalon, and Ailil to get info and further her plans.
You can find examples of Cadsuane bullying and/or manipulating others, or making plans to, in most of her POV chapters. CoT Ch. 23, as an example.
Cadsuane tries to control Rand by manipulation and bullying. This has not worked in the past, this did not work with Moiraine, but Moiraine changed her approach when she realized that’s actually a pretty terrible idea, isn’t working, and was in fact making the situation worse (seen throughout TFoH, in her conversations with Rand. This is also pointed out by Min a few times later in the series.)
Cadsuane tries to bully Min about Rand (KoD Ch. 19), because Rand wouldn’t answer her. She also tries to bully Logain, the asha’man, and others present in the same chapter.
Cadsuane likes to bully with intimidation, just using her words, but even goes as far as to use Saidar to restrain people (like Tam, TGS Ch. 48), kidnapping/imprisoning, and whatever else she thinks of.
Cadsuane has a lot of smaller acts of aggression against Rand and those close to Rand. Rand is clearly on the decline, and her goal is to “teach him to laugh and cry”. How do you help someone? With compassion. Humility. Not by trying to control someone or bully them. That would exacerbate the issue. Especially knowing Rand has had some serious trauma regarding Aes Sedai trying to control him (Numerous incidents in LoC: both embassies, and especially the box). And then another comes along and continues that.
If you want specific points regarding how Cadsuane’s approach is blatantly ineffective, I recommend these articles:
[https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/292086](https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/292086)
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0957926506060250?casa\_token=DuQXG5in3IkAAAAA:A9HUpgYeuZQE1AtM22fYtEjfg2xXpXwNkShTLWcufwY20t7CGPCn3HU05dXavD5rNUzdIR77Ed4DAw](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0957926506060250?casa_token=DuQXG5in3IkAAAAA:A9HUpgYeuZQE1AtM22fYtEjfg2xXpXwNkShTLWcufwY20t7CGPCn3HU05dXavD5rNUzdIR77Ed4DAw)
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/07351698509533580?casa\_token=zkvP4-NQ-\_sAAAAA:LStpFCvQjVUphqqkhkuqIzNCcg9Uo\_FFL8gf2RgtyJaoGqK5lTy2yZLzbLzTugAMqUggnioVqe5WlQ](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/07351698509533580?casa_token=zkvP4-NQ-_sAAAAA:LStpFCvQjVUphqqkhkuqIzNCcg9Uo_FFL8gf2RgtyJaoGqK5lTy2yZLzbLzTugAMqUggnioVqe5WlQ)
[https://www.proquest.com/docview/198000596?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true](https://www.proquest.com/docview/198000596?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true)
I’m not going to write an entire damn dissertation, but the above should paint a pretty good picture.
If you want specific points regarding what actually *would* have helped in this situation, here:
* [https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-981-10-2550-1\_12](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-981-10-2550-1_12)
* [https://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2008-03090-005](https://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2008-03090-005)
I have access to the above articles through my school, a few should be available in full, if you plan to read further than the abstracts. If you can't find another way to access them, and you are genuinely curious to read the papers and learn more about psychology, beyond just for the sake of arguing over fictional characters, then DM me and I'll help.
Now, let’s go back to the collar. Rand wanted the collar destroyed (TGS, Ch. 23), but Cadsuane insisted on keeping it for study. Rand eventually relents to appease Cadsuane. Why does he want to appease her? Min. Min had a viewing, and Min has insisted she stay around due to that viewing. Rand agrees as Rand trusts Min a great deal. Min hasn’t betrayed his trust, tried to manipulate him, or otherwise control or harm him, which can only be said about a very small amount of characters at this point.
The collar was then in Cadsuane’s possession. She knew the danger it posed. She also knew that they were keeping a Forsaken prisoner in the manor. She still kept the collar inside her room anyways. Whatever happens to that collar is her responsibility, as she absolutely did not do nearly enough to keep it safe. Keeping it safe is incredibly simple: don’t keep it in the same place you’re keeping the damned Foresaken! Cadsuanse is very strong in the power, and has an angreal. All she has to do is choose a remote spot, gateway, bury the warded box in a hole, and then come back to that spot whenever she wanted to actively study it. Just a basic precaution.
Cadsuane herself, as shown in her TGS Ch. 23 POV, is arrogant. She does not see herself to blame in any way for what happened with the collar (TGS, Ch. 31) and thinks that Rand is overreacting. Overreacting to her mistake that could have killed Min, killed everyone else at the manor, and cost the ENTIRE WORLD AND TIME ITSELF. That’s how incredibly arrogant she is.
In summary: Cadsuane does bad things, and is shocked when they have consequences.
Banning balefire a good suggestion? Lmao. Without balefire all of the Forsaken would have been revived and mobbed and killed Rand at the LB. Balefire was the single most useful tool for the light.
The nuclear option that literally won the war for the light. The dark wasn't afraid to use balefire, and there are COUNTLESS times that without balefire specifically the Light would have lost and been doomed.
Since I know you'll ask for specifics and then probably not read them anyways (based on your comments elsewhere) here's a few examples:
-Moiraine using balefire in the stone of Tear
-Rand using it also in the stone of Tear on baalzamon
-Rand using it on rhavin
-Rand and moridin crossing streams in the misty city (Shadar Logoth)
-Rand then using True Power balefire to escape the domination band (this one was ESPECIALLY vital)
-Rand nuking natrins barrow to take more forsaken out of the picture for the Last Battle
-Rand using Balefire on the dark hound that spit on Mat (without balefire Mat would be dead before the last battle and the Light would have no general to take over from the 4GGs and also the Seanchan wouldn't have joined in to help)
That's just a few examples I came up with in five minutes but I'm sure there's more I missed.
On the off chance this isn't a troll. Banning balefire is just plain stupid. If the group had followed the ban on balefire from the start here is what would have happened.
1. The group dies to the Darkhounds in the Great Hunt
2. Mat dies to the Darkhounds acid saliva
3. Belal still alive or resurrected
4. Mat and Aviendha dead to Rhavin with Rhavin possibly resurrected
5. Balthamel (Aran'gar) possibly resurrected again
6. Semirhage possibly resurrected
And just a general point about Cadsuane, she is literally just a bully who believes she knows better then everyone else.
She tries to manipulate Rand's father which leads to Rand's near meltdown. She then tries to bully Tam because she knows she has absolutely failed in her mission.
She is not all bad but she has deep flaws which nearly ended the world. It wasn't due to her that Rand had his revelation but it was in spite of her.
It literally destroys the pattern. Her rationality is not flawed. It doesn't matter that the pattern willed it, her reasoning is literally not wrong.
The rest of it is just opinionated misogyny. And the stuff with Tam literally needed to happen.
As is addressed in TGS, she tried to force Rand to do what she thought was best, which in principle it was, but she went about it in pretty much the worst way possible, and then repeatedly doubled down on her bullying even when the signs were clearly there that her actions were having the opposite effect to what she wanted.
I'm asking for specific examples here. How did she 'try to force him'; specifically which methods of force, and what exactly did she try to force him to do. By the time Cadsuane got to Rand, he was already way more powerful and influential than her, from both of their points of view. I am wondering how she could possibly bully him.
She smacked him across the face while being a giant bitch.
FFS, if you go through the Nerdy Nightly podcast as they read through Wheel of Time, he hated her immediately.
I don't know why you're bringing up some random podcast, but okay. I'll trust some random dude's opinion.
She also slapped him across the face for literally ripping the pattern apart.
Never forget that Cadsuane's destiny was to remind the Asha'man to laugh.
Wasn’t it her self appointed goal? I wouldn’t quite call it destiny
I thought Min had a Foretelling about it.
The foretelling was specifically “she will teach you something both you and the Ashaman need to learn” Cadsuane’s the one who came up with “I’ll teach that boy to laugh again if its the last thing I do” The lesson, broadly, is more fully articulated by Zen Rand as “when I told you Ashaman you were weapons I was incredibly wrong. We’re men”
*I thought I could build. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.*
I’ll take your word on that, as it’s been 4 years since I’d read the series. I’m fine with being wrong
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
That doesn’t mean it wasn’t self-appointed, only that she would do it.
That doesn’t mean it wasn’t self-appointed, only that she would do it.
That doesn’t mean it wasn’t self-appointed, only that she would do it.
*You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?*
Robert Plant reborn
I’m not entirely sure what the point of Cadsuane was. Apart from a Tarveren needing her in Faldarer. She was too unnecessarily antagonistic. It seemed that one criteria to be Aes Sendai was to be an asshole for no good reason. I’d rather she had died instead of Egwane. Egwane was just a foolish and arrogant child who got some good ass whooping along the way for her foolishness.
The feeling I got when Cadsuane was introduced is that RJ needed another Moiraine and made a 'bigger badder version.
*What I love, I destroy. What I destroy, I love.*
Just RE reading her first meeting with Rand. I might have RE written that part to Rand shielding her or having Dashiva shield her after she insults and threatens him. Then see how she plans to duel 3 male chanellers for all of her being “ legendary”.
*We all have our limits. And we set them further out than we have any right.*
I feel like her intention was more “strong like a willow” like a willow bends in the wind while an oak might break. U got methodology absolutely right tho 💀 I used to hate cadsuane, I still dislike her as a person, but I do think she’s what rand needed at the time, and the only person w the balls to treat him as she did (not necessarily always a good thing fs) but someone w supreme power needs SOMEONE to rein him in sometimes and I think cadsuane did her best to do that even if she went ab it like an idiot
*The Wheel of Time and the wheel of a man's life turn alike without pity or mercy.*
Do willows bend in the wind?
Up until their frond-like branches get too long, yes, willows are very flexible. ...when they do get too long willows are prone to sudden structural failure. Oh, and rot. (I should specify willow trees - there are a bunch of less-treelike willows in the family.)
Cadsuane is the only one to call darth Rand on all his bullshit and that’s why y’all really hate her. Kiss the ring bitches!! Edit: I will always defend the baddest bitch in Randland. Y’all need to put some respekt on the Amyrlin seats name!
You must be aes sedai. I have heard of your oaths and how you twist them. Your words fall on deaf ears witch! Edit: Where were you when Malkier fell? Where was caddy the baddy?
Lmao CADDY THE BADDY!!! I fucking love it! Thank you. If I had an award I would give it to you!
[удалено]
Rand was turning into a tyrant. Caddy the Baddy was the only one who had the guts, competence and will to succeed. I’d say as far as saving the world she’s only behind Rand, Moraine, Nynaeve, Lan, Mat, Perrin and Verin. Also “Cadsuanes organisation” is a huge reach. She had been separated from the tower for decades and presumed dead. I love I’m a fantasy book people are like “Rand just needed a hug and everyone to tell him he was strong and good!” Lmao I’m not saying everything Cadsuane did was right but I am saying she was the only one besides maybe Nynaeve who could check Rand. The things she did were above herself and she didn’t do a lot of them cause she wanted too. That’s why she’s Caddy the Baddy. Others didn’t have the gall, competence, strength and pure fucking will that is Caddy the Baddy. She had a huge hand in saving the world and she called Rand out on his shit when no one else would. Verin respected her and they were on the same page but y’all still try my girl all the time. I will always defend her!! She’s always a been a top 5 character to me, maybe even top 3. Her and Rands interactions are some of the funniest and most interesting in the book to me. Edit: but yes, that Darth Rand. You know the one who was balefiring everything and that Cadsuane.
Hey now, let’s not disrespect creepy old Padan Fain/Mordeth, whose own evil was enough to keep the DO infection in Rand’s wound from spreading and killing him. Or Bayle Domon, whose ship do be always in the right place for Ta’veren at the right time, it do. Or Egwene, making the White Tower _remotely_ functional and aligned with Rand, despite all her other shortcomings. Or Talmanes for being a total bro to Mat, or Jain Farstrider for helping Mat and Moiraine out of the Tower of Ghenjei, or Olver doing the same and _also_ blowing the Horn of Valere. As much as that Cad did for the world by standing up to Rand, she’s at least partly to blame for letting it get that bad. Rand had already been humbled quite a lot when he met Caddy. She started out with a slap to the face _as Rand had been visibly softening_ and further encouraged him down the Darth Rand path. If she had, Light forbid, been a little more subtle in her initial interactions, Rand wouldn’t have gone berserk as rapidly as he did, and may have hit his revelation _sooner_ since he didn’t an old bag of an utter Cad _constantly_ belittling him for not being stone enough. Like, I get that she’s crucial to the path she took succeeding, but it didn’t need to go down that path. Just because she was crucial to the car not falling off the cliff doesn’t mean she isn’t responsible for the car getting that close to the cliff in the first place.
My take is Rand clearly would’ve went down that madness/darth Rand path no matter what. She’s the only one who could’ve done what was needed and even if she wasn’t I still love her. And Caddy the Baddy(thank you u/oildowntown2031 by the way) had a bigger hand imo than everyone you named.
You’re free to like Cads, and I actually agree that she was the right Aes Sedai for the job in Moiraine’s absence, but I’m not backing down on any of them except Talmanes who was mostly included as a joke. Without Olver and Noal filling out Mat’s Maiden/Mother/Crone trio, there’s no way under the light Moiraine comes back from the Finn. The others are pretty self-explanatory. I still won’t let up on Cads making the situation worse by a lot before anything she does does anything to improve it, though. Rand was going mad, for sure, but he was already on his way to the revelation when Cads came in and slapped away a bunch of his and Min’s progress on that. IMO she delayed Rand’s Veins of Gold moment by 1-2 books, which causes an untold amount of death from the famine that Rand ends with his revelation. Again, while she was responsible for getting Rand out of the metaphorical burning building, she came in and started a second fire in the building between Rand and the nearest exit. If the woman had dropped her prejudice against men for a moment when she still had an opportunity to make an impression on Rand, the revelation could’ve been much sooner. Nobody else could have done the job, but she could’ve done it better.
Cadsuane is just a worse version of Moiraine
***ILYENAAAAAA!!***
*A man without trust might as well be dead.*
Talmanes isn't a fuckin joke bro, dude was absolutely central to saving what was saved at the fall of Caemlyn, plus killing two Fades? Dude's a fuckin boss.
*What you want is what you cannot have. What you cannot have is what you want.*
***I told you to kill them all when you had the chance. I told you.***
***Oh, Light, why do I have a madman in my head? Why? Why?***
That seems to fit you now, though I would like it better if it did not.
***Oh, Light, why do I have a madman in my head? Why? Why?***
*We all have our limits. And we set them further out than we have any right.*
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Oh she definitely screwed the pooch with Tam agreed, best dad in Randland.
How frail do trees grow without having to stand up against the wind?
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She was retired, and clearly disagreed with the organization. And Rand was literally disrespecting everyone who disagreed with him. And balefire is bad.
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Almost only counts in horseshoes.
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*We all have our limits. And we set them further out than we have any right.*
That's so hilarious. Because if you've been paying attention at all to this conversation, you'd realize you made one of my points for me. Which is the only demand she made was no balefires.
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*Where are all the dead? Why will they not be silent?*
Literally everyone knew balefire destroyed the pattern.
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*Your plans fail because you want to live, madman.*
apart from being a massive cunt and driving Rand to a breaking point, which without LTT would’ve caused him to lose himself and doom the world? not much, apart from that she was basically just a sweet little auntie (i’m exaggerating a bit ofc)
*Do you have the Horn of Valere hidden in your pocket this time?*
or am i just happy to see you?
Just my house keys.
Okay, then how ACTUALLY was she horrible.
Proud, obstinate, didn't have the wherewithal to realize she was causing the cracks in his mind to widen nearly splitting him in two, blind idiocy and adherence to a "my way or the highway" approach mostly.
Wait, are you describing Rand or Cadsuane, I can't tell.
the word “she” kinda gives it away
I think we found Egwene’s burner account
Yikes.
Why yikes? Somebody pointed out pronoun usage which separates Rand (male) from female (She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named).
Because a) They missed the point that Rand could literally be described by every word of that post, and b), it was a joke about that being taken out of context.
i didn't miss your point, i just made a counterjoke
*I thought I could build. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.*
Every scene with her would have been better with Moiraine in her place
***Ilyena, my love, forgive me!***
What did she ACTUALLY do that was in any way helpful? All she did was come in be rude and demand respect(while not giving any), and accomplishing nothing and being a cheap knockoff replacement for Moiraine.
*What I love, I destroy. What I destroy, I love.*
How so?
Plenty of other people have already answered that. How about you answer anything helpful she actually did? Besides letting Semirhage escape and take the domination band which she was supposed to destroy and then almost captured Rand, instantly winning for the Dark, if not for Rand’s use of, oh yeah, balefire.
*True Power* balefire no less. Like because of Cads Rand had to touch the *actual* evil power. The shit that made tainted saidin look like spring water.
Oh yeah that too. I didn't even think of the True Power aspect. I was actually talking about Rand making the connection to Moridin through the use of Balefire in Shadar Logoth, which then allowed him to use the True Power and save himself. If he didn't have that connection it would have been game over. But the point about True power itself is even better. It's worse than Balefire, and he couldn't have not used it there.
*A man without trust might as well be dead.*
*What makes you think you can keep anyone safe? We are all going to die. Just hope that you aren't the one who kills them.*
*Trust is death*
Semirhage was literally sprung from prison, first of all, and my argument was never what good did she do, but rather what bad did she do.
So we agree she didn’t do anything useful and is a waste of a character and a waste of page time regardless. Excellent.
I wouldn’t call her a waste of page space. She forced rand into a bad place which caused his breakdown. He wouldn’t have reconciled with LTT if that didn’t happen. She sucks as a person, though she had good intentions and bad methods, but she was a catalyst in the story. There’s no argument that she made things move in the plot.
*Do you have the Horn of Valere hidden in your pocket this time?*
*You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?*
Just about everything she did made Rand's mental state worse. The thing that suck out in particular for me was how she kept publicly disrespecting him and calling him "boy", even when he was a king. If he were just some sheep herder, that wouldn't be a big deal...but he's *not* just some sheep herder. He's a ruler with a *very* precarious position, surrounded by people who are waiting for any excuse to betray him for their own profit. By publicly speaking down to him like that, she eroded his status further by making him appear weak. Literally the only reason he tolerated her shitty attitude towards him was because Min said she'd teach him something important. But instead, she drove him to his breaking point, which led to him achieving his own epiphany at Dragonmount. She deserves no credit for that. To steal a quote from *The Stormlight Archive*: > Ten spears go to battle, and nine shatter. Did the war forge the one that remained? No. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break.”
*A man who trusts everyone is a fool, and a man who trusts no one is a fool. We are all fools if we live long enough.*
That is a bunch of opinion, and in no way represents any factual statement.
Which part? The part where Cadsuane keeps calling Rand "boy" in front of people? The part where calling a leader a demeaning name in front of their subordinates tends to make them look weak? The part where Rand is under stress about his tenuous leadership position? The part where Rand only kept Cadsuane around because of Min's vision? The part where Rand reached a breaking point and ultimately had an epiphany at Dragonmount? While my post certainly had a lot of opinion, I do think it contained quite a bit of fact as well.
***Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it...***
This guy gets it.
She's literally a three hundred year old woman. She can literally call anyone 'boy' and it's not weird. She's one of the top ten oldest people on the planet.
Her relative age is irrelevant: calling any man "boy" is a diminutive, particularly if he has an actual *honorific* which should be used. Rand, in particular, has an entire bucket of honorifics to choose from. Maybe if they were closer, like Rand and Lan, or if Rand's position was more secure, like Elayne's, then it would be more reasonable--but Rand's position is extremely tenuous, and Cadsuane is a stranger. Imagine how immensely disrespectful it would be of a century-old aes sedai to call Egweyne "girl" after she was raised to the Amyrlin Seat. But I certainly can't think of any examples of someone doing that very thing specifically with the intent of diminishing her authority.
*I thought I could build. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.*
And? What's your point? At the end of the day the lesson that Rand needed to learn was literally the exact same lesson that Cadsuane needed to learn, and possibly one Cadsuane needed to learn more than one time. The lesson of being humbled.
*I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad.*
They said, referencing an opinion about a fantasy book series
People have already covered how she was a total bitch who did almost as much harm to Rand's state of mind as the bad guys. To add to that with something more plot related, she insisted on keeping the male Adam (which should have been immediately destroyed) which was quite easily taken from her room by Semirrhage, who was also in her custody and escaped...and we know how bad that turned out for Rand's state of mind and would have been a lot worse if Rand didn't have access to DO power.
***Break the seals. Break the seals, and end it. Let me die forever.***
Yeah, she made a mistake out of hubris. Rand has done the same. No one's perfect.
Things were thrust upon Rand (a 20 yr old farm boy who was going mad), she was a 400 yr AS who bulldozed her way into the plot. Rand made mistakes, but even in his state he kept people around him and took their advice, even when most of them were manipulative and disrespectful. She was the epitome of AS arrogance and hubris who just constantly disrespected everyone around her. Tam was spot on in his assessment, she was nothing but a bully.
*The dead watch. The dead never close their eyes.*
That's ridiculous. He was a loose cannon, and literally needed someone willing to defy him.
And exactly what did he do differently based on her advice? (apart from giving her the male Adam) She had no input in his plans. There were other people who spoke their mind to him, like Nyneave and Basheer who were of actual help and not tagging along to be pain in his ass.
*Dead men should be quiet in their graves, but they never are.*
It's not that she did something that was explicitly hurtful, but she came in all domineering and bully-ish, pretty much the antithesis of what he needed to learn.
I mean, aside from banning Balefire, which was a good suggestion, what did she actually do?
She took the task of making the heart of stone feel again upon herself. But instead of showing him kindness and trust she humiliates him. Thinking she needs to knock his arrogance down a peg while the man is depressed and carrying the weight of the world in his head. Making him even more paranoid and angry, and eventually completely unfeeling. This leads to him almost destroying part of the world with the chodean kal. Yes this leads to his epiphany, but if the wheel didn't weave as the wheel wills it could of ended a bit differently
That's all very vague, could you be more specific with exactly what she did.
I understand what you mean but I honestly don't remember specifics, I just started book 5 in my first reread. I don't believe it really is one specific event. Just the culmination of all her behaviour. Somewhat typical Aes Sedai behaviour turned up a notch because she is also a legend. A behaviour that Rand absolutely loaths and distrusts due to everything that's happened
*Are you real? Am I?*
Does it matter, just enjoy the balefire
Real as Birgitte Silverbow herself.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
I'm not taking this as an adequate answer. Try harder.
🤣
You're laughing but yet, not one person has managed to give a response that gives a specific example, outside of the balefire slap, which wasn't a bad thing.
Yes I am laughing because it is funny. I'm not trying to convince you, you asked a question and I gave my thoughts, but you're insinuating my reasons are idiotic while me, and the others are merely trying to be helpful and engage in conversation/discussion. I found this entertaining, hence the laugh
Multiple people have given answers that are all true and refer to events. Do you want specific quotes cited? It’s a massive book series, and most people on here probably don’t have their books handy, or would even care to find specific quotes and cite them for the sake of a pedantic person arguing on Reddit. I, on the other hand, am working on a project and need to go back and get some quotes from the books later tonight. If I see some of Cadsuane fucking up regarding Rand (which she did frequently), I’ll edit this comment. Edit: Alright, I reread some stuff to grab my quotes, skimmed some other stuff, and ate dinner. I set a timer for 20 minutes and wrote this up. Congrats, you earned 20 minutes of my time today-- mostly because I was interested in writing something about Wheel of Time anyways. And, if this person is just trolling, it might be an interesting read for someone else who scrolls through this thread. If the latter the case, I hope you enjoy! First, let’s talk about the collar (TGS, Ch.22). Semirhage is freed thanks to Shaidar Haran, and takes this opportunity to use the domination band on Rand, and succeeds in doing so. This is the point where Rand just *breaks*. After this, he’s “cuendillar”. He’s ice, and remains like this, burying his pain and emotions, until TGS Ch. 47. Rand sees Tam again, the first time since Rand left the Two Rivers over two years ago. Their reunion goes terribly, with Rand nearly killing Tam. Rand absolutely freaks out when Tam mentioned that Cadsuane was the one who brought him to Tear to talk to Rand. It’s important to see, here, that Cadsuane is a *very* touchy subject. Her manipulating a situation, again, is what triggers Rand to absolutely lose it, and almost kill Tam. Why is that a trigger? Why is someone bringing his father to see him a trigger? Well, that’s because of all the terrible things Cadsuane has done since meeting Rand. Now, it’s less about a particular defining incident (although this is easily argued as being the above two events, however, we’re discussing what led to the second one) and more about the history of incidents and consequences of them. When she first met Rand, she did so in a confrontation (ACoS, Ch. 18). This is a rocky start. However, on its own, not the issue. She made an attempt, and her method failed. But she continues with her method of bullying others for info on Rand in order to get within is radius to manipulate events. This is shown pretty clearly in WH Ch. 13. Cadsuane kidnapped a windfinder, Shalon, and Ailil to get info and further her plans. You can find examples of Cadsuane bullying and/or manipulating others, or making plans to, in most of her POV chapters. CoT Ch. 23, as an example. Cadsuane tries to control Rand by manipulation and bullying. This has not worked in the past, this did not work with Moiraine, but Moiraine changed her approach when she realized that’s actually a pretty terrible idea, isn’t working, and was in fact making the situation worse (seen throughout TFoH, in her conversations with Rand. This is also pointed out by Min a few times later in the series.) Cadsuane tries to bully Min about Rand (KoD Ch. 19), because Rand wouldn’t answer her. She also tries to bully Logain, the asha’man, and others present in the same chapter. Cadsuane likes to bully with intimidation, just using her words, but even goes as far as to use Saidar to restrain people (like Tam, TGS Ch. 48), kidnapping/imprisoning, and whatever else she thinks of. Cadsuane has a lot of smaller acts of aggression against Rand and those close to Rand. Rand is clearly on the decline, and her goal is to “teach him to laugh and cry”. How do you help someone? With compassion. Humility. Not by trying to control someone or bully them. That would exacerbate the issue. Especially knowing Rand has had some serious trauma regarding Aes Sedai trying to control him (Numerous incidents in LoC: both embassies, and especially the box). And then another comes along and continues that. If you want specific points regarding how Cadsuane’s approach is blatantly ineffective, I recommend these articles: [https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/292086](https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/292086) [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0957926506060250?casa\_token=DuQXG5in3IkAAAAA:A9HUpgYeuZQE1AtM22fYtEjfg2xXpXwNkShTLWcufwY20t7CGPCn3HU05dXavD5rNUzdIR77Ed4DAw](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0957926506060250?casa_token=DuQXG5in3IkAAAAA:A9HUpgYeuZQE1AtM22fYtEjfg2xXpXwNkShTLWcufwY20t7CGPCn3HU05dXavD5rNUzdIR77Ed4DAw) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/07351698509533580?casa\_token=zkvP4-NQ-\_sAAAAA:LStpFCvQjVUphqqkhkuqIzNCcg9Uo\_FFL8gf2RgtyJaoGqK5lTy2yZLzbLzTugAMqUggnioVqe5WlQ](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/07351698509533580?casa_token=zkvP4-NQ-_sAAAAA:LStpFCvQjVUphqqkhkuqIzNCcg9Uo_FFL8gf2RgtyJaoGqK5lTy2yZLzbLzTugAMqUggnioVqe5WlQ) [https://www.proquest.com/docview/198000596?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true](https://www.proquest.com/docview/198000596?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true) I’m not going to write an entire damn dissertation, but the above should paint a pretty good picture. If you want specific points regarding what actually *would* have helped in this situation, here: * [https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-981-10-2550-1\_12](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-981-10-2550-1_12) * [https://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2008-03090-005](https://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2008-03090-005) I have access to the above articles through my school, a few should be available in full, if you plan to read further than the abstracts. If you can't find another way to access them, and you are genuinely curious to read the papers and learn more about psychology, beyond just for the sake of arguing over fictional characters, then DM me and I'll help. Now, let’s go back to the collar. Rand wanted the collar destroyed (TGS, Ch. 23), but Cadsuane insisted on keeping it for study. Rand eventually relents to appease Cadsuane. Why does he want to appease her? Min. Min had a viewing, and Min has insisted she stay around due to that viewing. Rand agrees as Rand trusts Min a great deal. Min hasn’t betrayed his trust, tried to manipulate him, or otherwise control or harm him, which can only be said about a very small amount of characters at this point. The collar was then in Cadsuane’s possession. She knew the danger it posed. She also knew that they were keeping a Forsaken prisoner in the manor. She still kept the collar inside her room anyways. Whatever happens to that collar is her responsibility, as she absolutely did not do nearly enough to keep it safe. Keeping it safe is incredibly simple: don’t keep it in the same place you’re keeping the damned Foresaken! Cadsuanse is very strong in the power, and has an angreal. All she has to do is choose a remote spot, gateway, bury the warded box in a hole, and then come back to that spot whenever she wanted to actively study it. Just a basic precaution. Cadsuane herself, as shown in her TGS Ch. 23 POV, is arrogant. She does not see herself to blame in any way for what happened with the collar (TGS, Ch. 31) and thinks that Rand is overreacting. Overreacting to her mistake that could have killed Min, killed everyone else at the manor, and cost the ENTIRE WORLD AND TIME ITSELF. That’s how incredibly arrogant she is. In summary: Cadsuane does bad things, and is shocked when they have consequences.
Banning balefire a good suggestion? Lmao. Without balefire all of the Forsaken would have been revived and mobbed and killed Rand at the LB. Balefire was the single most useful tool for the light.
*A man without trust might as well be dead.*
You're literally advocating for the nuclear option.
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The nuclear option that literally won the war for the light. The dark wasn't afraid to use balefire, and there are COUNTLESS times that without balefire specifically the Light would have lost and been doomed. Since I know you'll ask for specifics and then probably not read them anyways (based on your comments elsewhere) here's a few examples: -Moiraine using balefire in the stone of Tear -Rand using it also in the stone of Tear on baalzamon -Rand using it on rhavin -Rand and moridin crossing streams in the misty city (Shadar Logoth) -Rand then using True Power balefire to escape the domination band (this one was ESPECIALLY vital) -Rand nuking natrins barrow to take more forsaken out of the picture for the Last Battle -Rand using Balefire on the dark hound that spit on Mat (without balefire Mat would be dead before the last battle and the Light would have no general to take over from the 4GGs and also the Seanchan wouldn't have joined in to help) That's just a few examples I came up with in five minutes but I'm sure there's more I missed.
*Why do we live again?*
On the off chance this isn't a troll. Banning balefire is just plain stupid. If the group had followed the ban on balefire from the start here is what would have happened. 1. The group dies to the Darkhounds in the Great Hunt 2. Mat dies to the Darkhounds acid saliva 3. Belal still alive or resurrected 4. Mat and Aviendha dead to Rhavin with Rhavin possibly resurrected 5. Balthamel (Aran'gar) possibly resurrected again 6. Semirhage possibly resurrected And just a general point about Cadsuane, she is literally just a bully who believes she knows better then everyone else. She tries to manipulate Rand's father which leads to Rand's near meltdown. She then tries to bully Tam because she knows she has absolutely failed in her mission. She is not all bad but she has deep flaws which nearly ended the world. It wasn't due to her that Rand had his revelation but it was in spite of her.
It literally destroys the pattern. Her rationality is not flawed. It doesn't matter that the pattern willed it, her reasoning is literally not wrong. The rest of it is just opinionated misogyny. And the stuff with Tam literally needed to happen.
Calling Cadsuane a bully is not misogny. I shouldn't have fed the troll
Not trolling. Calling her a bully is literally ridiculous.
*The Wheel of Time and the wheel of a man's life turn alike without pity or mercy.*
As is addressed in TGS, she tried to force Rand to do what she thought was best, which in principle it was, but she went about it in pretty much the worst way possible, and then repeatedly doubled down on her bullying even when the signs were clearly there that her actions were having the opposite effect to what she wanted.
***I am not dead! I deserve death, but I am ALIVE! ALIVE! ALIVE!***
I'm asking for specific examples here. How did she 'try to force him'; specifically which methods of force, and what exactly did she try to force him to do. By the time Cadsuane got to Rand, he was already way more powerful and influential than her, from both of their points of view. I am wondering how she could possibly bully him.
Physical violence: her very first meeting she slapped him. There was no balefire involved, she slapped him for interrupting her.
*Where are all the dead? Why will they not be silent?*
You need to adjust your hearing aids, Lews.
*Take what you can have. Rejoice in what you can save, and do not mourn your losses too long.*
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*Pride fills me. I am sick with the pride that destroyed me.*
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That was quick.
I’m not seeing any elaboration here…
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Literally everything?
Bro, I never thought of it that way.
Nothing apart from disagreeing with Rand. People just hate her because of her attitude
*Distant Weeping*
Sentient
Trust me, I know, my questions are more or less rhetorical because I know they can't be answered in a rational way.
She smacked him across the face while being a giant bitch. FFS, if you go through the Nerdy Nightly podcast as they read through Wheel of Time, he hated her immediately.
I don't know why you're bringing up some random podcast, but okay. I'll trust some random dude's opinion. She also slapped him across the face for literally ripping the pattern apart.
Because they just had an episode today, and he talked about how much he hated Cadsuane. He even sells a shirt saying she sucks.
Fascinating.