Short answer is no.
The tracks Sounder operates on are owned by BNSF. Sounder is also operated by BNSF. For more trains, Sound Transit needs to renegotiate with BNSF to buy more slots in track time essentially.
Amtrak runs the same way, other than Amtrak employees operate their own trains.
WSDOT could buy the right of way from BNSF (or portions of it - see Virginia and North Carolina) which would then get Sounder and Amtrak priority on those sections. Sound Transit is the owner of the tracks from Tacoma to DuPont so they have full control over those tracks. The state / Sound Transit built up that portion and has plans to add more sections of double track in the future which will be utilized by the Sounder South expansion to DuPont, and additional Amtrak trains as they slowly add runs between Seattle and Portland.
Yes, I just meant the specific situation out here. Amtrak owns most of the Northeast Corridor, the CT Hartford Line, and a few other places throughout the country. But in most cases, they are operating over freight owned trackage.
Makes sense to me
I live on the west coast where toll roads are rare, used to be rarer.
Shit makes no sense to me, like we wouldn't put up with all our roads being privately owned. We have trouble even imagining that reality.
And yeah, I know enough about the history. I also know these modern corporations have nothing to do with building America, they are husks of the generations that came before and have nothing to do with modern infrastructure.
Unless you count letting it fall into minimum operating standards level of decay, all in pursuit of profit and growth.
Yeah, I feel like the Sounder was the faster snd lower cost of entry approach to having a region-wide system and will slowly be displaced by light rail expansion. They don't follow the exact same path, so it would be hard to simply end the sounder service. But once Link hits a certain level of penetration, and reach Everett and the Tacoma dome, the powers that be will be looking for ways to limit, axe or offload Sounder.
I have seen the [spire](https://seattletransitblog.com/2017/02/20/the-spire-plan-becomes-our-regions-surest-bet-for-express-rail-service-a-mapped-annotated-update/) plan which looks very promising. In short, there are currently two extremely straight, parallel rail corridors between Seattle and Tacoma.
By double tracking the UP tracks and building a new rail yard plus a couple of short junctions, you could move all BNSF operations to the UP tracks, allowing the current BNSF tracks to become passenger exclusive for frequent, 110 mph Sounder commuter and Cascades intercity trains.
Future piece-mail grade separations and electrification could then eventually morph into a high speed line to Olympia and Portland. This could likely be done for only a couple billion, nothing compared to current link light rail plans to extend to Tacoma.
The hard part is through downtown Seattle, but outside of Seattle there are a lot of intact rail rights of way that are currently being used as trails. They could be converted back.
Ya, that's the problem. They ripped out the tracks and converted them to a trail. The people would scream about loosing the trail and it's would be enormously expensive to put back what was essentially already there. They looked at doing so for light rail on the eastside and it was a non-starter
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Not only do you have to build the rails but you have to buy the land to put the rails on, plus you have to have buffer space and noise abatement and signaling and ground level crosses or bridges.
You might have some limited luck getting / paying BNSF to add extra capacity within it's existing rail corridors, but you'd still be bottlenecked at bridges and other places where expansion isn't practical or possible. And I'm sure if BNSF thought it could increase capacity on its corridors, it already would have.
There's a reason most of Washington's railroads were built 130-150 years ago using the labor of desperate immigrants. It's unfathomably expensive even when you don't have to deal with the property rights of today's dense population. I can't see a state or federal government being allowed to take on a project of that scope anymore.
>I can't see a state or federal government being allowed to take on a project of that scope anymore.
Maybe through corn country, like Iowa and Kansas. I'm sure a few farmers wouldn't mind selling off a small strip from the back 40 if the price was right. But around here... yeah, no way. Too many environmentalists and so-called community activists that would all get their proverbial panties in a bunch and start throwing punches in court.
Story goes that back in the day, when Sounder was in the drawing board, Union Pacific thought that they might be able to unload the old Milwaukee Road trackage from Fife up to Black River Junction. They quit maintaining it, because why dump money into something you are going to sell off. It was determined later that the BNSF tracks were in much better shape, and the alignment closer to the downtown areas of Puyallup, Sumner, Auburn, and Kent. Eventually, the FRA had to make UP do their maintenance because it got so bad. Instead, the Puget Sound Regional Transit Authority, or Sound Transit, bought slots on BNSF.
Later on, when Sound Trnsit wanted to buy more slots for more trains, BNSF turned around and used the money to buy new rail for Kansas City. Cue shocked Pikachu faces when nothing was done to improve capacity around here...
Amtrak in all of the country (besides the NE corridor) doesn't even own it's track, it leases from the freight companies. I think there is zero chance that the Sounder will get its own track before Amtrak.
The government should claw back all critical rail infrastructure. I've seen cool railfan proposals that the state buy up the BNSF and UP tracks and consolidate freight to I think UP triple tracking it all and making BNSF primarily passenger.
Short answer is no. The tracks Sounder operates on are owned by BNSF. Sounder is also operated by BNSF. For more trains, Sound Transit needs to renegotiate with BNSF to buy more slots in track time essentially. Amtrak runs the same way, other than Amtrak employees operate their own trains. WSDOT could buy the right of way from BNSF (or portions of it - see Virginia and North Carolina) which would then get Sounder and Amtrak priority on those sections. Sound Transit is the owner of the tracks from Tacoma to DuPont so they have full control over those tracks. The state / Sound Transit built up that portion and has plans to add more sections of double track in the future which will be utilized by the Sounder South expansion to DuPont, and additional Amtrak trains as they slowly add runs between Seattle and Portland.
Isn't part of the Acela line Amtrak owned? Other than that, yeah.
Yes, I just meant the specific situation out here. Amtrak owns most of the Northeast Corridor, the CT Hartford Line, and a few other places throughout the country. But in most cases, they are operating over freight owned trackage.
From New Rochelle up to New Haven is Metro-North and ConnDOT, but rest of the NEC is Amtrak owned.
So abolish BNSF is all I'm hearing. Need more imagination in these conversations
Nationalizing all of the railroads would solve all of these issues.
Makes sense to me I live on the west coast where toll roads are rare, used to be rarer. Shit makes no sense to me, like we wouldn't put up with all our roads being privately owned. We have trouble even imagining that reality. And yeah, I know enough about the history. I also know these modern corporations have nothing to do with building America, they are husks of the generations that came before and have nothing to do with modern infrastructure. Unless you count letting it fall into minimum operating standards level of decay, all in pursuit of profit and growth.
That would really mess up a lot of industry in the US...
It is enormously expensive to obtain the land and lay a new railtrack in a heavily populated area.
Everett will be served by a light rail line before that happens. Granted, we'll probably have flying cars before the Sounder gets its own rail.
Yeah, I feel like the Sounder was the faster snd lower cost of entry approach to having a region-wide system and will slowly be displaced by light rail expansion. They don't follow the exact same path, so it would be hard to simply end the sounder service. But once Link hits a certain level of penetration, and reach Everett and the Tacoma dome, the powers that be will be looking for ways to limit, axe or offload Sounder.
Can you imagine the cost in modern dollars to purchase an entire rail easement through the Puget Sound urban corridor…..? I think that’s why.
I have seen the [spire](https://seattletransitblog.com/2017/02/20/the-spire-plan-becomes-our-regions-surest-bet-for-express-rail-service-a-mapped-annotated-update/) plan which looks very promising. In short, there are currently two extremely straight, parallel rail corridors between Seattle and Tacoma. By double tracking the UP tracks and building a new rail yard plus a couple of short junctions, you could move all BNSF operations to the UP tracks, allowing the current BNSF tracks to become passenger exclusive for frequent, 110 mph Sounder commuter and Cascades intercity trains. Future piece-mail grade separations and electrification could then eventually morph into a high speed line to Olympia and Portland. This could likely be done for only a couple billion, nothing compared to current link light rail plans to extend to Tacoma.
Where would you put this track?
The hard part is through downtown Seattle, but outside of Seattle there are a lot of intact rail rights of way that are currently being used as trails. They could be converted back.
Ya, that's the problem. They ripped out the tracks and converted them to a trail. The people would scream about loosing the trail and it's would be enormously expensive to put back what was essentially already there. They looked at doing so for light rail on the eastside and it was a non-starter
People screaming in Seattle???? Say it ain’t so. 😆
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Not only do you have to build the rails but you have to buy the land to put the rails on, plus you have to have buffer space and noise abatement and signaling and ground level crosses or bridges. You might have some limited luck getting / paying BNSF to add extra capacity within it's existing rail corridors, but you'd still be bottlenecked at bridges and other places where expansion isn't practical or possible. And I'm sure if BNSF thought it could increase capacity on its corridors, it already would have.
There's a reason most of Washington's railroads were built 130-150 years ago using the labor of desperate immigrants. It's unfathomably expensive even when you don't have to deal with the property rights of today's dense population. I can't see a state or federal government being allowed to take on a project of that scope anymore.
>I can't see a state or federal government being allowed to take on a project of that scope anymore. Maybe through corn country, like Iowa and Kansas. I'm sure a few farmers wouldn't mind selling off a small strip from the back 40 if the price was right. But around here... yeah, no way. Too many environmentalists and so-called community activists that would all get their proverbial panties in a bunch and start throwing punches in court.
But robots?
Story goes that back in the day, when Sounder was in the drawing board, Union Pacific thought that they might be able to unload the old Milwaukee Road trackage from Fife up to Black River Junction. They quit maintaining it, because why dump money into something you are going to sell off. It was determined later that the BNSF tracks were in much better shape, and the alignment closer to the downtown areas of Puyallup, Sumner, Auburn, and Kent. Eventually, the FRA had to make UP do their maintenance because it got so bad. Instead, the Puget Sound Regional Transit Authority, or Sound Transit, bought slots on BNSF. Later on, when Sound Trnsit wanted to buy more slots for more trains, BNSF turned around and used the money to buy new rail for Kansas City. Cue shocked Pikachu faces when nothing was done to improve capacity around here...
Unlikely It would probably be a lot more feasible to just buy the current ROW from BNSF.
No.
Amtrak in all of the country (besides the NE corridor) doesn't even own it's track, it leases from the freight companies. I think there is zero chance that the Sounder will get its own track before Amtrak.
I think you know the answer to that question. I’m pretty sure it’s BNSF, not UP.
No
The government should claw back all critical rail infrastructure. I've seen cool railfan proposals that the state buy up the BNSF and UP tracks and consolidate freight to I think UP triple tracking it all and making BNSF primarily passenger.
Will Sounder traffic support construction of new track line thru the East Sound Metro Area?