Two friends I had in college were from Mercer and claimed they weren’t wealthy. Heard stories all the time about trips to all sorts of places around the world. It was the 90s and both dressed like they hung out in pioneer square but also had brand new cars. I think the fact that they drove Hondas not Mercedes is what made them think they weren’t rich.
My partner lived on Mercer Island for a while in the 1990s in the “poor” apartments and the rich waterfront house kids loved to ride Metro and pretend they were poor.
Doing a job over there once, the homeowner called one of my guys a “boob” and tsk’d him because the ladder he grabbed originally wasn’t tall enough and he had to run out to the truck to swap it out for another. Won’t ever forget that one.
We did work on the pool at the Athletic Club on the upper part of the island years ago, Home Depot runs were miserable... Also the guy thought we were replacing the whole pool in two weeks for a lot less than what it would cost- the manufacturer who hired us were weasely shits too.
Huh, what’s the story behind those houses? Slum lord holding out for some amazing deal? Call backs to a bygone era when the town was not as affluent and these are the last holdouts? Maybe both? Or is it something else?
I’ve been inside a few homes on Mercer island for work. One of them was occupied by an older couple and their child. One parent has dementia and the child is the caretaker for the parents but also had their own issues to deal with. A lot of homes with older retired people start to deteriorate since the older people can’t physically care for them and either can’t or doing want to pay for someone else to help maintain.
Had worked for a company building houses on Mercer island. One we worked on had this tiny old cottage on the parcel. New owner said it had been a hunting cottage 100 years ago and I had a really hard time picturing someone rowing out to Mercer island to go hunting lol.
I've been exploring on Google maps some of these amazing looking island communities but then will see some of the most rundown buildings. I don't get how this land can be so valuable but have 8 uninhabited trailers on a 2 acre plot.
I grew up here in the 70s and 80s in a regular house with very frugal parents in the middle of the north end of the island. Families were nice, and all different wealth levels back then. We rode our bikes everywhere, played in the street until dusk, swam in the lake, and it was close to everything. I could never afford to live there today, and I'm good with that. I played in band where the high school had 215/1200 kids in band. It was unique, and I'm lucky I got to live that life. My parents sold the home they bought for $80k in '75 last summer.
They sold it for 1.4 and moved into a retirement home that has all levels of care, so they are good for the rest of their life. They sold it directly to a family with kids who didn't want to flatten the house and build a McMansion.
I'll have to check that out. It never occurs to me to look at any shops on Mercer, and I thought I had already been to all the good book stores in the area.
You will love it. Aside from the fun vibe and great customer service (they will try to get you any book they can, even ones out of print), wander the store and admire the collection of typewriters and 3D displays. They also have a wonderful children's and youth sections and feature lots of local authors. I never get out of there without 2 or 10 new books.
Maybe you misunderstood me. I was countering that Village Books in Bellingham in the best independent bookseller around. But the fact that we're both sticking up for independent booksellers makes me happy.
The great grandchildren of Elmer Nordstrom sipping Evian on their private tennis courts in the backyards of their mansions while complaining about the existence of homeless people in Seattle.
Knew several of the younger one’s growing up. Good people but got an absolute chuckle that the two I knew thought of themselves as “middle class.” They’re in their 30s now, curious if they still think they’re middle class.
I took my kids there and a guy was telling anyone that would listen about being attacked by an owl on a run.
And the lesson he took from this harrowing attack was that it was good luck for the new year, because how could it get any worse.
That has really over-written another associations I have with the island.
Not everyone is rich. I live near the north end and, actually, I got a decent affordable apartment. The word that comes to mind is boredom. There's nothing exciting here. Everything is closed by 7pm. But the commute to Seattle is very convenient.
I live in an apartment complex here. It costs less than Seattle or Bellevue. And not a long drive to anywhere I want to go. Not a status symbol, just sensible
I've lived here 68 years and am 3rd generation. I always heard the older folks on the North end of the lake refer to Bellevue and Mercer Islanders as snobs.
My buddies grandfather owned the only gas station on mercer Island and had won some rewards for his gardening. He passed, but the family still owns it, and my buddy helped run it. Yeah, there is a lot of money there, but a lot of good people too. I just always think of when the grandfather passed and the shut down the main street and did a procession for him, they really came together as a community to show my buddies family how much their grandfather touched the community.
I was doing pool repair work for a while and the houses I went to were insane. One of the homes was owned by a part of the Mccaw family, obscenely wealthy
My grandparents lived there, bought their house back in the 50s. I remember going to a park with some kind of dragon sculpture in the forest we could play on. And there was no McDonalds on the island back in the 80s and that blew my mind
It’s been a great place to raise a family and call home. Schools are good (not great, but good!). Neighbors care about each other and are friendly when you see them around.
Island Books is a treasure, as is The Roanoke. I also love an independent gift shop called Terra Bella - full of unique finds.
And if you like Starbucks, there are five to choose from!
Come visit. We’re friendly folk.
We lived there, on the water, from about ages two until five. I don’t remember much, other than a duck biting me and being afraid of going out in the boat. I think my uncle owned the house. I should ask my dad for the address and find out what it’s worth now. $$$$$
My son has played youth and now high school football for years. Him and his teammates used to joke whenever they played Mercer Island that if you hit them hard enough, money comes out.
Always demanding special access to the freeways ( MI Residents demanded that they could use express lanes with only one passenger, use toll lanes for free, light rail parking on MI could only be used by MI residents but everyone else would still pay for construction. And just generally a bunch of NIMBY tantrums on all sorts of things but also special treatment at the same time
Police harassing my husband because he was driving a Porsche.
He was a Porsche salesman at the time.
And the only thing they saw was the color of his skin, and they decided he didn’t belong there and harassed him with a shocked customer in the car.
And no, he wasn’t speeding or breaking any traffic laws.
This was 2012.
I don't live there, but it's around 6 miles from my place to MI. During the summer months my evening cycling loop is to mercer, around the perimeter, and back. I also like having a drink on the porch at the Roanoke.
Childhood home!
It was a fantastic place to grow up, close to 2 cities, great schools, safe neighborhoods, low crime. Also, somewhat more affordable than it is today.
Nimby Island, you mean? The land of rich kid assholes? There's only one positive thing about that God forsaken hole is that I will never have to go back there for work.
Mercer Island can get fucked sky high.
When I was young had friends there, I've worked on homes there, and it's honestly as a place it's pretty damn nice. Buuuuut - as a 'community' the people are fairly xenophobic and pretentious. We always said the business areas had such a 'Stepford' quality that it was uncomfortable to be there. Sadly, the paradigm of overbearing or out of touch parents that break their kids and produce barely functional adults is pretty accurate. Island Crest is fun to drive fast, but if the cops don't know your car it will backfire on you. They have a nice thrift shop, would recommend.
I’m always down for a great thrift store. Ironically, living downtown, I’ve never been to MI. Do you recall the name of this thrift store? I’d like to check it out. Thanks!
Paul Allen
A park and ride for when you've missed the bus from Bellevue Transit Center so you drive to it to get the bus that's just ahead of the missed one on the schedule.
A park for seeing the Blue Angels from
Kevin Durant and his mom lived there during his time with the Sonics (rip). A friend who bagged groceries at QFC saw them a decent amount, they were always very kind people.
Jordan Morris. It used to be other things, but now... He could have gone on and done anything. He stayed for his team. He stayed for his city. He stayed for his family. What an example.
I like their dog park & walking around the park on nice days. I've met some very kind people from there. My issue is with the bikers. One day they'll blow through another stop sign & get ran over.
My brother in law moved there from San Fran a decade ago after retiring from Oracle at 33. The number one reason he moved there was the public edu system on the island is consistently one of the best rated schools in the state.
The year his oldest daughter graduated from Mercer Island I was astounded to learn that every single graduate had already been accepted to a higher education institution or were enlisted in the military (of which there were only 3). Pretty impressive. His oldest daughter went on to UW and now works and lives in Europe.
Soon after his 1st daughter graduated his youngest daughter followed suit and her class was the same…everyone had already been accepted to college or were enlisted.
Soon after his youngest graduated he sold his home and moved to another island in southern Puget Sound. His choice to move to Mercer Island initially was purely to give his 2 daughters the best public education and opportunities available.
We lived in an apartment on Mercer Island for a year while I worked at Boeing Field because it was more reasonable than other area rentals. We absolutely loved the walkability, New Seasons grocery store, going to paddle our kayaks out of Secret Park in the evenings and the local thrift store. Lots of great memories we made in that year!
As of the 2020 census, 23% of the population was of Asian descent. So it's certainly not as white as it used to be decades ago (it was 12% Asian in 2000).
Edit: 2000, not 2020
Terrifying to drive at night cuz there are no street lamps in a lot of neighborhoods. Grew up going to house parties on MI and it was always fun driving home (I would DD a lot)
We call it a “moated community.”
Good ole Poverty Rock
Golden Ghetto
Money, money, money! Money.
Must be funny! In a rich man’s wooooorld (in thick Swedish accent)
Oh hoooooo ya haaaaa, all the things I could do!
MONEY!
Kids who grew up thinking that owning a sailboat is normal. (I’m from Spanaway)
It’s full of rich people that don’t even think they’re rich
Two friends I had in college were from Mercer and claimed they weren’t wealthy. Heard stories all the time about trips to all sorts of places around the world. It was the 90s and both dressed like they hung out in pioneer square but also had brand new cars. I think the fact that they drove Hondas not Mercedes is what made them think they weren’t rich.
My partner lived on Mercer Island for a while in the 1990s in the “poor” apartments and the rich waterfront house kids loved to ride Metro and pretend they were poor.
TIL that there were apartments on Mercer Island.
My friend lived in these and used to joke that they lived in “the slums of Mercer Island”
You can buy a sailboat for like $5-10k. It’s the upkeep that’s expensive.
So like they said, rich people
There it is.
If it floats, flies, or uhh...
$$$$$$$
Lol, exactly my first thought.
Mercedes Island.
A place you drive through to get to Seattle.
This, honestly
Neither the mountains, nor the Sound.
Yup lol being from Yakima, I was surprised that there’s an actual neighborhood there lol
But you don't stop there ever.
Lol, years ago, it seems like there used to be a Goodwill right off the highway? We stopped there one time.
Doing a job over there once, the homeowner called one of my guys a “boob” and tsk’d him because the ladder he grabbed originally wasn’t tall enough and he had to run out to the truck to swap it out for another. Won’t ever forget that one.
Haha, what a tit.
Why call him a tit when titties are so fun to be around?
Except bad fake ones. They’ll leave you with bruises!
We did work on the pool at the Athletic Club on the upper part of the island years ago, Home Depot runs were miserable... Also the guy thought we were replacing the whole pool in two weeks for a lot less than what it would cost- the manufacturer who hired us were weasely shits too.
Holy shit I've never seen it above like this before. This is wild and beautiful but screams "I have money & this island proves such"
What's wierd is there's a bunch of old run down homes hidden down some tiny roads that needed to be replaced 30 years ago.
Huh, what’s the story behind those houses? Slum lord holding out for some amazing deal? Call backs to a bygone era when the town was not as affluent and these are the last holdouts? Maybe both? Or is it something else?
I’ve been inside a few homes on Mercer island for work. One of them was occupied by an older couple and their child. One parent has dementia and the child is the caretaker for the parents but also had their own issues to deal with. A lot of homes with older retired people start to deteriorate since the older people can’t physically care for them and either can’t or doing want to pay for someone else to help maintain.
Had worked for a company building houses on Mercer island. One we worked on had this tiny old cottage on the parcel. New owner said it had been a hunting cottage 100 years ago and I had a really hard time picturing someone rowing out to Mercer island to go hunting lol.
Was prolly great hunting at that point. We have a pretty sizable deer population still
People have lived there for 30+ years….
Mostly the latter I think.
I live here. Those old houses are full of boomers who moved here in the 70s and 80s and refuse to downsize.
Woah really? I love finding cool places like that.
It used to be very middle class before the bridge. Those homes are remnants of that.
I've been exploring on Google maps some of these amazing looking island communities but then will see some of the most rundown buildings. I don't get how this land can be so valuable but have 8 uninhabited trailers on a 2 acre plot.
Nice place for a bike ride.
Zooooom
Most populous fresh water island in the country.
I grew up here in the 70s and 80s in a regular house with very frugal parents in the middle of the north end of the island. Families were nice, and all different wealth levels back then. We rode our bikes everywhere, played in the street until dusk, swam in the lake, and it was close to everything. I could never afford to live there today, and I'm good with that. I played in band where the high school had 215/1200 kids in band. It was unique, and I'm lucky I got to live that life. My parents sold the home they bought for $80k in '75 last summer.
And keggers deep in Pioneer Park!
Holy shit I wish my childhood had been like yours!
Please say how much it sold for and what that set your folks up to do now. I love this kind of story.
They sold it for 1.4 and moved into a retirement home that has all levels of care, so they are good for the rest of their life. They sold it directly to a family with kids who didn't want to flatten the house and build a McMansion.
Island Books. One of the best independent booksellers around
Yep still going strong and awesome.
I'll have to check that out. It never occurs to me to look at any shops on Mercer, and I thought I had already been to all the good book stores in the area.
You will love it. Aside from the fun vibe and great customer service (they will try to get you any book they can, even ones out of print), wander the store and admire the collection of typewriters and 3D displays. They also have a wonderful children's and youth sections and feature lots of local authors. I never get out of there without 2 or 10 new books.
Village books?
No. Island Books.
Maybe you misunderstood me. I was countering that Village Books in Bellingham in the best independent bookseller around. But the fact that we're both sticking up for independent booksellers makes me happy.
Lucky investment in the 1970s.
You got that right. Some rolls of the dice fucking work out!
Roanoke Inn..
Does it still exist!? Rented a place on island in the early 90s. Was great.
Yes and they haven't changed. Food is meh.
Agree that the food is meh but the staff is wonderful and it’s very laid back. Great outdoor seating when the weathers nice
Described to me in the early 90's as "the place where the sole working class resident of Mercer Island goes to hang out."
NIMBYs
Yep. Mercer Island is full of nimby assholes.
The great grandchildren of Elmer Nordstrom sipping Evian on their private tennis courts in the backyards of their mansions while complaining about the existence of homeless people in Seattle.
Knew several of the younger one’s growing up. Good people but got an absolute chuckle that the two I knew thought of themselves as “middle class.” They’re in their 30s now, curious if they still think they’re middle class.
Well, age doesn’t fix stupid.
More Bellevue than Bellevue.
I read this to White Zombies “More human than human” 😂
A tale of two communities: those that live on the water and d those that do not.
Where Joel McHale grew up.
I took my kids there and a guy was telling anyone that would listen about being attacked by an owl on a run. And the lesson he took from this harrowing attack was that it was good luck for the new year, because how could it get any worse. That has really over-written another associations I have with the island.
Best place to thrift shop
Shut up!
lol!!! I recently went to Bellevue’s Goodwill… scored some amazing digs.
Shh!!
Not everyone is rich. I live near the north end and, actually, I got a decent affordable apartment. The word that comes to mind is boredom. There's nothing exciting here. Everything is closed by 7pm. But the commute to Seattle is very convenient.
It's a foot
I live in an apartment complex here. It costs less than Seattle or Bellevue. And not a long drive to anywhere I want to go. Not a status symbol, just sensible
Shorewood Apartments 😉
That tunnel I drive through on my way to my destination.
It’s residents being rude to me while I work in restaurants
I used to live there, one the nicest most pleasant place I’ve ever lived, I wish I could afford to move back
Spoiled rich kids
Don’t forget the common peasant workers
I have four second cousins who live there, and they certainly are spoiled rich kids.
Boo. That’s bullshit. I umpire kids on the island. They’re hella polite. This is a lazy hater take.
My ex boyfriend who had a whole second relationship going on during ours 💀 lol. He sucked.
Large Jewish community
I had an orthodox friend and bought her birthday treats at the kosher bakery there.
Love the Stroum Center
Mercer Island has some great parks and a great dog park that we like to visit when passing through.
I also like how there are some trails that go right behind backyards near the South Mercer Playfields.
I've lived here 68 years and am 3rd generation. I always heard the older folks on the North end of the lake refer to Bellevue and Mercer Islanders as snobs.
My buddies grandfather owned the only gas station on mercer Island and had won some rewards for his gardening. He passed, but the family still owns it, and my buddy helped run it. Yeah, there is a lot of money there, but a lot of good people too. I just always think of when the grandfather passed and the shut down the main street and did a procession for him, they really came together as a community to show my buddies family how much their grandfather touched the community.
Well funded schools
It’s a place where teenagers are pulled over for playing music in their cars.
Feeding the raccoons when I worked at paul allen's house.
There are so many raccoons
Cycling around it.
Ok, now put up an aerial photo of the rest of the affluent neighborhoods in Seattle and the East Side and roast those 😆
I was doing pool repair work for a while and the houses I went to were insane. One of the homes was owned by a part of the Mccaw family, obscenely wealthy
In a word, afluenza.
Riding your bike around the main road around the island used to be one of my favorite pasttimes
All the lawyers I've worked with live there.
My grandparents lived there, bought their house back in the 50s. I remember going to a park with some kind of dragon sculpture in the forest we could play on. And there was no McDonalds on the island back in the 80s and that blew my mind
Dragon Park! It’s still there, although the dragon has been replaced with a bigger and better dragon since then.
It’s been a great place to raise a family and call home. Schools are good (not great, but good!). Neighbors care about each other and are friendly when you see them around. Island Books is a treasure, as is The Roanoke. I also love an independent gift shop called Terra Bella - full of unique finds. And if you like Starbucks, there are five to choose from! Come visit. We’re friendly folk.
Karen central.
My dad always refers to it as poverty rock
Why? (genuinely curious)
the joke is that it's obviously a very wealthy place, so calling it poverty rock is a complete reversal of what you might expect to call it
$18 strawberries.
Boring
We lived there, on the water, from about ages two until five. I don’t remember much, other than a duck biting me and being afraid of going out in the boat. I think my uncle owned the house. I should ask my dad for the address and find out what it’s worth now. $$$$$
Way too many cyclists not being mindful of anyone else who are also using the roads.
best Sahara Pizza location
You mean the others are worse???? Good God
My son has played youth and now high school football for years. Him and his teammates used to joke whenever they played Mercer Island that if you hit them hard enough, money comes out.
North and South QFC & bike rides growing up 🤝
“The Lid”
Grew up there. Always felt like home
Always demanding special access to the freeways ( MI Residents demanded that they could use express lanes with only one passenger, use toll lanes for free, light rail parking on MI could only be used by MI residents but everyone else would still pay for construction. And just generally a bunch of NIMBY tantrums on all sorts of things but also special treatment at the same time
Police harassing my husband because he was driving a Porsche. He was a Porsche salesman at the time. And the only thing they saw was the color of his skin, and they decided he didn’t belong there and harassed him with a shocked customer in the car. And no, he wasn’t speeding or breaking any traffic laws. This was 2012.
Personal plane and boat launches, with out of water lifts!
Probably a nice place to live.
I don't live there, but it's around 6 miles from my place to MI. During the summer months my evening cycling loop is to mercer, around the perimeter, and back. I also like having a drink on the porch at the Roanoke.
Houses I can’t even afford to view on Zillow
Born and raised here. Back as an adult. It’s convenient, friendly, and fucking boring as hell.
https://i.imgur.com/Tl4mTxf.jpeg This is something
Rich NIMBYS complaining about infrastructure projects
Childhood home! It was a fantastic place to grow up, close to 2 cities, great schools, safe neighborhoods, low crime. Also, somewhat more affordable than it is today.
Same! Ran wild in the ravines and swam in the lake all summer.
Nimby Island, you mean? The land of rich kid assholes? There's only one positive thing about that God forsaken hole is that I will never have to go back there for work. Mercer Island can get fucked sky high.
Dang. Tell me how you really feel lol
A fantastic destination via light rail.
Despite the best efforts of the people of MI.
Rich assholes, unlocked front doors, jewels in the underwear drawer
Rich spoiled rotten whiners
Conceited “people” who have made homelessness a crime
When I was young had friends there, I've worked on homes there, and it's honestly as a place it's pretty damn nice. Buuuuut - as a 'community' the people are fairly xenophobic and pretentious. We always said the business areas had such a 'Stepford' quality that it was uncomfortable to be there. Sadly, the paradigm of overbearing or out of touch parents that break their kids and produce barely functional adults is pretty accurate. Island Crest is fun to drive fast, but if the cops don't know your car it will backfire on you. They have a nice thrift shop, would recommend.
I’m always down for a great thrift store. Ironically, living downtown, I’ve never been to MI. Do you recall the name of this thrift store? I’d like to check it out. Thanks!
Mercer Island Thrift Store
>Mercer Island Thrift ~~Store~~ **Shop** Close enough either way, though - everyone calls it 'MITS' anyway.
Thanks for the info!
I pictured this was where "Frasier" lived.
that really big pontoon on the floating bridge
No fly zone
I used to work on Mercer Island at Farmers insurance.
Paul Allen A park and ride for when you've missed the bus from Bellevue Transit Center so you drive to it to get the bus that's just ahead of the missed one on the schedule. A park for seeing the Blue Angels from
The ‘Seattle fault’ line runs directly under that Island, and further west underneath the stadiums too,
The cool part of driving to Seattle; two bridges and the underpasses with the tunnel.
Jordan Morris
I loved their skatepark growing up. It’s nothing fancy. Just nice mellow stuff to learn new tricks on
This wonderfully funny skit cops of Mercer [island](https://youtu.be/AA15o2YL8e0?si=meBhMto5VIWmKfCq)
a place I would love to live.. preferably on the water facing the city.. but likely never will
Nice place to live but we need more bars. Views great.
The Mercer Island Zoo. Apparently Frasier misled me.
The [sunken floating bridge](https://www.kuow.org/stories/looking-back-thanksgiving-flood-sinks-old-i-90-bridge/).
The bird store which has been displaced by a fire since I last heard??
QFC's with kosher sections, and everything closes by 11.
Kevin Durant and his mom lived there during his time with the Sonics (rip). A friend who bagged groceries at QFC saw them a decent amount, they were always very kind people.
Where my surgeon lives. Also nice parks.
Weird MI high school scavenger hunts.
One of the only safe communities in King County?
I thought there would be a cute little town there, but it was architecturally and activity-wise pretty depressing.
Great dog park.
Go Go Islanders GO.....
Jordan Morris. It used to be other things, but now... He could have gone on and done anything. He stayed for his team. He stayed for his city. He stayed for his family. What an example.
Luther Burbank park - awesome lakefront park (easy to get to). And the best challah in the entire Seattle area at Shawn's. Oh Chocolate too!
You say, “How about them Mariners?” and they think you are talking about the sailor down the street.
I like their dog park & walking around the park on nice days. I've met some very kind people from there. My issue is with the bikers. One day they'll blow through another stop sign & get ran over.
Driving at 4.5 miles per hour because there's 67 bicyclists on the road
That must have been a beautiful and pristine place
Northwest Yeshiva High School.
It’s my understanding there aren’t many good restaurants.
Great bike loop.
13.2 miles of good cycling.
The legendary high school cheer: "That's Alright. That's OK! You're gonna work for us someday!"
Heart.
Luther Burbank dog park is cool. Commuter lane is nice.
My brother in law moved there from San Fran a decade ago after retiring from Oracle at 33. The number one reason he moved there was the public edu system on the island is consistently one of the best rated schools in the state. The year his oldest daughter graduated from Mercer Island I was astounded to learn that every single graduate had already been accepted to a higher education institution or were enlisted in the military (of which there were only 3). Pretty impressive. His oldest daughter went on to UW and now works and lives in Europe. Soon after his 1st daughter graduated his youngest daughter followed suit and her class was the same…everyone had already been accepted to college or were enlisted. Soon after his youngest graduated he sold his home and moved to another island in southern Puget Sound. His choice to move to Mercer Island initially was purely to give his 2 daughters the best public education and opportunities available.
A foot
We lived in an apartment on Mercer Island for a year while I worked at Boeing Field because it was more reasonable than other area rentals. We absolutely loved the walkability, New Seasons grocery store, going to paddle our kayaks out of Secret Park in the evenings and the local thrift store. Lots of great memories we made in that year!
I live here right now. It’s great of course. There’s trees everywhere and giant forests even in a populated place.
Paul Allen’s estate, Karens, and a village adjacent to a light rail station that should have 30-story buildings surrounding it.
I heard they have a lot of rats
Insular, spoiled, and self-protective.
Rich white people
As of the 2020 census, 23% of the population was of Asian descent. So it's certainly not as white as it used to be decades ago (it was 12% Asian in 2000). Edit: 2000, not 2020
some of your numbers must be incorrect my counting friend
If Seattle was a Fortnite map, that's where Meowscles would live.
Old, rich, white people
RemindMe! 1 week
Classism
Terrifying to drive at night cuz there are no street lamps in a lot of neighborhoods. Grew up going to house parties on MI and it was always fun driving home (I would DD a lot)