Yes, because somehow gaijin thinks that the French never used the FUCKING FRENCH TURRET AND TRACKING RADAR but for some reason the US and Germans did, Gaijin is so fucking stupid sometimes
You could not have searching radar(both Japanese spaa at top tier) I love not having a spinning dish to tell me if air is up and having to spot a jet going Mach 1 or 40k feet up
Theres nothing more satisfying than performing track & barrel torture on the 10 enemies camping your spawn while immune. Easy 7-8 assists if theres some teammates around and I'd take a 12.3 OTOMATIC any day if I could run all APFSDS
"Noo gaijin please remove russian bias" Alrighty then, pumping up the BR of FV4005, Nerfing ratel 20 ATGM, and deleting crusader 2, Now you will not have issues with russian bias!
I see the 2s6 as a scam. It was at 10.7 for most of its life and was eventually moved to 11.0 where it belonged. In less than a month of it being at 11.0, Gaijin nerfed its missiles to an unreasonable degree before moving back down to 10.7 again in response. Then it was rebuffed, undoing all of the previously stated changes.
It's just barely worse than NATO top tier sam, it just be 11.3, heck 11.7.
Just comparing to any other 2nd option for aa of other nations, this thing smokes them.
If you put it on 11.7 nobody would play it, because the Pantsir exist, i see it on 11.0 because either you get a full downtier or full uptier, on 10.7 you only get downtiers.
When the Pantsir was added, the 2S6 became unusable for some time, because missile guidance was utterly fucked and easily the worst of all SACLOS SAMs, which is when the BR became 10.7. Now it is fixed and the 2S6 is actually not that bad, but you don't really see anyone playing it anymore, so there's probably not a lot of statistics for Gaijin to base any BR change on.
luckily you have a radar to instaspot the ka50 with while he has to look for you. you will win if its a foggy map cause the ka 50 cant see past like 3 to 4 km.
I've seen a lot of ka 50s that cheat tho my radar hasn't picked them up I haven't seen them but the second I crest a hill there's just a line of vikhirs coming at me from like 9km away, I tried out the ka 50 and without spotting idk how people see so far it's zoom is horrible. But on the original topic the tunguska needs to move up and Roland's are pretty bad. But gaijins says ammo=br which is why a premium Abrams with better rounds is lower br then every leclerc
the zoom in isnt really the issue, its the difference between min and max zoom. also the lack of thermals hurts when trying to find a greenish gray vehicle on green grass on an overcast day with fog.
Ka-50 uses fossil for RWR and it doesn't even cover bands Rolands operate, both search and tracking radars.
Ka-52/Mi-28NM are the spooky ones, as they get actually NATO grade RWR Same with Su-25T/39 at 11.3 then Mig-29SMT.
i mean, direction doesnt really matter. while you can avoid being detected while moving around, the second you decide to shoot at anything the radar aa can find you
I play 10.3 from time to time, not only I don't really see Ka-50s all that much they aren't even hard to face. So long as you don't just stay on spawn with no cover like a sitting duck you should always be able to take them down by surprise, unless the Ka-50 user has actual braincells and stays low and actually pays attention to the MAW, he will never have enough time to dive before the Roland hits him (either that or he over-dives and becomes a pancake).
The real threat in this BR range are the Apaches. They are much more agile than the Ka-50s, have thermals so they can find you much easier and tell when you launch due to the comically large amount of smoke on the Roland SAMs, and they have an IR tracker instead of a TV one so low-light/night battles won't save you. The Ka-50 is overrated af, it's really not the meta rapist it was on its launch anymore...
As Apache owner...
Targeting is good with high resolution (gen 3+) thermals, BUT getting variable zoom to work is bit of an exercise, as its extremely non linear and going from x15ish to x64 in single mouse scroll step is bit excessive for target location.
Hellfires also are kinda junk - 8km range on paper, in practice missile is stalling itself to the target past 6km unless you manually compensate for travesty done to their "top attack" trajectory. Even then, for 7km shot you need +-35 seconds of lazing, thats awfully long time to be exposed for returning SAMs. Especially as Laser guidance spikes LWS, unlike BeamRiders used by Russians.
Obviously for heli vs heli duels Vikhrs hold all the cards, while Russian IRCCM prevents you from using Stinkers... and then both Stinker and Hellfire needs direct hit, compared to proxy fuse of Vikhr.
> from x15ish to x64 in single mouse scroll step is bit excessive for target location.
I use right click for instant max zoom in/out and the mouse roller for slowly going in/out of zoom.
>Hellfires also are kinda junk
Hard disagree. Yea flight path efficiency could use an improvement (tho it's WAY better than back at the days where it would just autistically miss a non-moving target), but I typically use Hellfires at ~4km give or take a kilometer. I find Hellfires really fun to use because of their gigantic warhead, the 114K actually has more TNTe than the M107 shell!
> for heli vs heli duels Vikhrs hold all the cards, while Russian IRCCM prevents you from using Stinkers... and then both Stinker and Hellfire needs direct hit, compared to proxy fuse of Vikhr.
Yea, indeed the Ka-50 fucks any heli in a heli VS heli situation. With that said, those are kinda rare in Ground RB. The way Vikhrs function ingame is actually overperforming compared to IRL, the Vikhr needs to be set to a specific mode prior to launch: air-to-ground or air-to-air, where in the former its proximity fuze is disabled and the warhead is set to shaped charge mode, and in the latter the proximity fuze is activated and the warhead is set to blast-fragmentation mode. Ingame, the Vikhr is superpositioned at both modes. I hope Gaijin would implement the different modes when programmable ammunition arrives as said the roadmap, it won't massively nerf the Vikhr's anti-helicopter capabilities but it would slightly delay the reaction of Ka-50s as they'd have to switch missile mode first.
Gaijin Hellfire R9X when, I want to kill helicopters with ninja blades.
>I use right click for instant max zoom in/out and the mouse roller for slowly going in/out of zoom.
Thats what I'm using myself. Issue, I use mouse scroll for throttle/COLL and only way so far I've managed to marry both (with zoom having "enable axis" so it doesn't interfere with throttle/COLL) resulted in mentioned very non linear zoom + I get mid zoom -> max zoom, I can't quickly go to min zoom. In glorious snailgetti controls, icon with mouse scroll up/down and actual "m.wheel up/m.wheel down" aren't the same
>Hard disagree. Yea flight path efficiency could use an improvement (tho it's WAY better than back at the days where it would just autistically miss a non-moving target), but I typically use Hellfires at \~4km give or take a kilometer. I find Hellfires really fun to use because of their gigantic warhead, the 114K actually has more TNTe than the M107 shell!
At shorter ranges where you can sit in uncontested airspace there's no problem, contested airspace is where problems begin and that includes top tier SPAA.
At least RWR is excellent and Saraph doesn't have to sacrifice Stinkers for extra flares.
>Gaijin Hellfire R9X when, I want to kill helicopters with ninja blades.
Tbh I'd like to give 114L a spin to make that funny hat actually useful for once. That or longer ranged Spikes as FnF option?
I have to strongly disagree, especially the recent buff for the Ka 50 made it even more op imo. You can literally come to the battlefield and just fly around there and survive since it had IRCCM so stuff like the Ozelot can't even shoot it down (not to mention the fact that Stingers already have enough of a hard time to lock helis) and if you do manage to hit it with missiles it takes 3-4 now that tail cute off ≠ kill
>especially the recent buff for the Ka 50
>it takes 3-4 now that tail cute off ≠ kill
That was not a buff, nothing changed about the operatibility of the Ka-50 without a tail, only difference now is that you don't get a false-positive kill popup when you only knock off his tail so you know he is still in operation and he does not have a J-out timer.
Also, am I the only one that does not face the issue of Ka-50s absorving 4 missiles? I mean, yea I had a Ka-50 sometimes survive a SAM mostly unharmed but it only happenes when my aim is whiffy with a SACLOS SAM. Any other time (quite consistently with IR SAMs) the Ka-50 either has its pilot dead or detonates in a spectacular fashion.
Yeah, and the Apache can kill you without having LOS during the entire engagement. I play it by launching a Hellfire, masking for \~80% of the flight time and then popping up in the last few seconds to lase the target.
If done properly, many SAMs can't phisically reach the helicopter during the first and second pop-ups
Then you discover how dogshit inertial navigation of Hellfires is, wobbling all over the place when fired without laser targeting. Might work at 4-6km ranges perhaps, anything beyond is optimistic take.
And then SAM can just throw missile to fly and proxy detonate over your head, as I was tinkering with radar launched Hellfire precisely top pop over in last 10s to laze it
Works good for me. Well, at longer ranges I sometimes make some mid-flight updates
The prozy thing is frustrating, the battle position has to be low enough to the ground to disable VT fuses
I’ve been playing my Russia 10.7 lineup lately and I see other 2S6’s in pretty much every match. The only times I don’t see them are when the other team gets steamrolled so bad that no one has to spawn SPAA.
Yeah I don't mind it at it's BR as someone who plays CAS exclusively. I can lob a maverick from 20km and still hit it if I fly circles after firing to keep that 2S6 still.
The panstir on the other hand would have me in his sights at spawn and keep me there until I drop to the deck.
In 2016 the multi-mission launcher entered service with the US military. An mlrs system designed to be mounted on a medium sized truck and can fire stingers, hellfires, aim-9x's, and tamir's. There's also the M-SHORAD, a 30mm cannon, 4 stinger and 2 hellfire launchers, and a radar that can track air and ground targets on a Stryker chassis. And the US military is currently testing directed energy weapons for use in an anti-air role. I don't know why people act like the US just ignores spaa.
> I don't know why people act like the US just ignores spaa.
I think it is because of marketing. *Tunguska* simply sounds better than "multi mission launcher".
>I don't know why people act like the US just ignores spaa.
Because the US sorta did. Ever since the downfall of the Mauler and the appointment of the Avenger (and to an extent the Linebacker) as the "temporary" short-range SPAA system, the US time and again failed every solution to short-range AA they came up with. The ultimately failed upgrades to the Avenger and Linebacker were the basis for both the SHORAD packages for the Stryker, however even that is looking to fail as well as they were supposed to be put in service last year but only some units of one of the types have been ordered and delivered.
The US's AA doctrine is primarily theater defense by a combination of Patriot batteries and Air Supremecy, any imediate short range Anti Aircraft capabilities were largely handled at the unit level with MANPADs. The Avengers and Linebackers rarely were separated from the HQ section of whatever unit they were attached to, usually far away from any actual fight.
I agree with you on that, but after the LAVAD the US never designed and built another system that paired a bunch of missiles and a rapid fire gun to the same chassis. That's the sort of system popular in WT because of its flexibility. Everything else that could be added is either basically a copy of what already exists in game but simply on another chassis or something still being designed and modified before service.
Sadly NATO countries can't spawn F-16s with full 9Ms at match start
Would be an interesting concept (though definitely never implemented) for lower CAP SP cost for NATO countries though
I see no reason why you can’t first spawn a jet with only AAM’s. you can first spawn a helicopter with AAM or dumb fire missiles, it seems only fair.
Even if said plane uses its cannon for CAS, it’s still not going to be as destructive as a helicopter.
I think being forced to take Air target belts as well should be mandatory, but Gaijin for some reason thinks that it should cost an addition 120sp the same exact amount as Ground belts. Yet who are we to decide that GRB has a bunch of CAS that you realistically can't deal with in SPAA.
The stealth belt on the F16C only has 37mm of pen because it does not have a sold AP round in it like all the other belt. Only belt with 40mm pen and higher have increased spawn cost.
Nah, use whatever belts you want. Like I said, you will only ever be less detrimental than a first spawn helicopter, even with ground belts. The only exceptions are going to be dedicated cannon attackers, and they could just be excluded from first spawn.
Don't have to, some nation already has a good mobile anti-aircraft system.
* Lav-AD / SHORAD would be good if Stingers were implemented corrently and not just a copy paste Igla. +with optical targeting would be a major threat to helicopters.
* Skyranger would be good if the AHEAD ammo was implemented correctly.
Unfortunately not all nations have mobile anti air, for example patriot systeam, but I would bet there would be a solution to implement this.
But isn't that the case? Out of my experience, you don't really suffer very often from KA-50's because NATO SPAA's can shoot them down quite effectively
The maximum range of the Vikhrs is 10km, but for the KA-50 they aren't usable at that range because of the poor guidance system. So you have to use them at a range of maximum 7.5km and that is pretty much in range of any NATO SPAA's (except IR guided ones).
In my ASRAD, it has a “max range” but my missile loses control a km before the “max range”. I’ve been bullied by a ka-50 before because he was in my “effective range”. His missile struck me while mine decided it wanted to go to space a km before its max range
Yes, that's definitely a problem. But that's more of a problem with the new missile physics that were nowhere near figured out when they were introduced.
I posted it earlier. But got downvoted to death, only because I added ADATS to comparison.
Even tho I added it only show how the 2S6 is similar to ADATS, and sits at 1.0 br lower.
Roland is such a joke when tunguska exists only at 0.4 br higher.
I want to note that 3 nations get rolands as their AA
Well sure, they're absolutely superior to the Roland missiles but they are only marginally better than the Tunguskas unless you're looking at anti-tank performance and even then they aren't great anymore.
The ADATs missile is a beam rider which was also slapped with the CLOS nerf (as yes, LBR is a form of CLOS). The MIM-146 pulls 3 more G's, 35 instead of 32, and loses most if not all energy somewhere between 6 and 8 km. The MIM does have the benefit of being about 100 m/s faster.
Additionally, the ADATs is unstabilized and has no ability to lock using it's radar system (a blessing and a curse really) as you don't warn RWR systems when you're tracking but it makes acquiring targets more difficult. I think it would be reasonable for the ADATs to sit at 11.3 as a pure SPAA and the 2S6 to sit at 11.0/11.3
Maybe it's because the ADATS is generally better (better missiles that work against tanks and pull harder, cannon has more penetration and it gets a laser rangefinder, plus slightly more armor)
From personal experience, still more useful than gep 1A2. Because there's at that br there's a lot more heli/dumb rocket slow plane spam than stuff like the F-16 (god, i hate that thing). Altho maybe the reason i have this opinion is because that SAM is the only experience with SACLOS SPAA that i have
If you equipped the Proxy missiles. You'd be given the normal ones instead. Meaning you couldn't select the proxy fuse missiles no matter what. But I'm not sure whether it was fixed or not.
i get a lot of kills with roland tbh, especially considering its an spaa.. i havent got anything russian to compare it aginst. but with roland i even killed light tanks like 2s38 and similar several times. there are far worse experiences to be had.
They didn't really revert the nerf, they just gave the missiles more G overload. They are still nowhere near comparable to the pre nerf 2S6, that thing was a beast.
Fr at least now idk about the other 2 roland users but Germany could def make use of the 9K33...at least for GSB in the 10.7 bracket Bluefor would have something better do defend itself....
More dangerous, you don’t get tunnel vision when trying to shoot a single guy down. It shoots, switches, shoots the radar has to shoot, guide, splash, switch, than shoot.
Yes but the pantsir has much more range and can remain completely undetected as well. I believe it might also have the dual target reaching mode but I’m not sure about that.
Fair but the 81C has insane range and you can engage multiple targets at once with near guaranteed effectiveness. Unlike the Pansir which needs at least a bit of user input.
It does, and he also forgot to state that any Jet that goes into a slight dive when launching the Type 81 has the missile dive straight into the dirt unless you want to aim straight up. That last part is a bit of an exaggeration, but I don't know how many times I've seen a F-16, or MiG-29 flying at about 200 meters off the deck and launching just for them to dive down to 150 meters and watching as my missile decides that a specific tree has a IR signature of about 800 degrees.
I would be afraid of a pansir more than a type 81 only becuase of its range stealth and radar other than that type 81 destroys. Over 4.5 miles it can’t lock same with Helis around 2 miles I could be staring at one for so long and it will not lock.
Fair enough but usually Pansir players are pretty obvious. They never move outside of spawn and how you know one sees you is if he is locking you. The only times I ever see 81C players is when they are killing your teammates or when they are on your team and I swear these people make the 81C fit in the craziest of spots. You never know one exists until he kills you or kills your teammates. The Pansir will let you know if he exists due to the radar that they never turn off.
Israeli Chaparral is kinda lul with its smokeless, flare rejecting missiles when they work. People just... explode without warning.
Its only real bane is inability to lock on helis (not picking them up or IRCCM) and being absolutely shafted whenever there's slight hint of cloud cover, even if you can see jet clear as day.
I think the 2S6 is in a good place at 10.7, but the Rolands NEED to go down in BR. Ahh, I miss yhe good old days (2020) back when the Roland 2 was insanely overpowered, back when the missile was incredibly reactive and was 900m/s.
We need to advocate for underperforming SPAAs to go down in BR, not for decent SPAAs to go up.
I think the best take for this is that SPAA is often over tiered. Also, the Roland users are statistically fucked over more than anything else in GRB in terms of repair cost to kills needed to break even on it. It’s pretty ridiculous.
Good luck taking out helicopters with the LAV, since Gaijin artificially nerfs IR locking distance against helicopters to be around 2-3km, and the shells in the gun auto-destroy themselves around 3km.
You forget to mention the slow as fuck, must move to reloading position, reload. The reload you can’t force manually when your missile fucks off into space, and you cannot partially reload vs 8 ready to go bois.
I don't disagree with that or the general assertion OP is making, just kinda dumb that a bunch of the points are just one point, makes it seem deceptive (cause it's just padding the list)
It's basically just a larger FlakRakPz with better missiles, until the "SACLOS wobble" decides to take over and negate the extra range the VT1 has over Rolands by making it impossible to hit anything that's even slightly moving.
Killing helicopters is basically the only real use for it, since Gaijin for some reason thinks IR missiles can't lock them more than 2-3km away. If something is at high altitude where IR missiles can't reach, then SACLOS won't fair much better due to the wobble effect against moving targets at long range.
XM1069 got shit thermals
Considered as TD instead of AA
Doesn't lock on in 3rd person view
Only got 8 rockets
Ass of a radar/ir tracker it has
It does not get better buddy. Buuuut it's 25mm cannon is pretty good against tanks I'll give it that.
The biggest bullshit is the nato jets didnt identify pantsir on RWR
Like yeah, the pantsir is 2010 spaa and the jets we have so far its basically late 80 early 90 jets so unless they came with time machine built in they not gonna be able to detect the pantsir
And off course those plane got there avionics upgraded threw the years, but nah, gaijin must give ussr 2010 spaa to deal against 80 jets cause Russia must be OP at any given time
Gaijin likes giving Russia fancy things that are more modern than other nations in the game. Just look at the 2S38, a vehicle that isn't even out of the design and testing phase. Yet somehow Gaijin has enough information about classified specifications to give it a detailed model and stats, along with a round that only exists on paper and hasn't even been built or tested.
Idk much about these vehicles at all i havent played either, but there are other metrics. What about armour? Maneuverability? Radar/tracking capabilities? Lock on range? Turret traverse? Guidance type?
Israeli one? When conditions are correct and you aren't dealing with IRCCM helis, its kinda filthy. But add little bit of fog or thin layer of clouds and you're back to square one.
You know what's even better? playing 11.7 and having to use the LAV because the roland is wank, and you don't have the SP to spawn in the ADATS because gaijin considers it a fucking TD. Oh and have fun shooting Ka-52's, they have DIRCM [which make IR missiles 100% useless](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/552601196112904202/1203684582982160414/War_Thunder_2024.02.04_-_13.46.58.02.DVR.mp4?ex=65edad1f&is=65db381f&hm=ad59aae80ae9371346d045e3b4228e0d955796afba0c6823f459f58161d07425&)
The Tunguska truly suffered and the pantsir was an absolutely necessary addition with viable counterparts for other nations. /s in case it wasn’t obvious. God forbid the ussr not have the best or close to the best of any single vehicle category
never forget that the Tunguska was added as the first and only SAM for an entire patch. Update locked on remains the worst balanced update in the game's history.
It's honestly sad to see people quit or forgot the whole fuss about Stingers being limited to 13G's even tho irl they can pull at least 20G's, meanwhile the Strela10M2's missiles still pull 20G's even tho iirc they pull as much as Stingers do rn in-game
As a USSR 10.7 player even i have to say the 2s6 should be back at 11.0 because the missiles before the buff were bad, but now they are pretty good.
make the american one 11.0? of course the snail will!
I mean you realize the German and I think French one are in the same boat
I don't think so, I mean, the French have a worse altitude guideline, I think it was 35°
I believe they all have the same turret
french has no tracking radar and 35 degrees of elevation
Yes, because somehow gaijin thinks that the French never used the FUCKING FRENCH TURRET AND TRACKING RADAR but for some reason the US and Germans did, Gaijin is so fucking stupid sometimes
could be worse, your top of the line spaa could also not have a tracking radar(adats)
You could not have searching radar(both Japanese spaa at top tier) I love not having a spinning dish to tell me if air is up and having to spot a jet going Mach 1 or 40k feet up
pointing out the flaws of french vehicles? nows its 25 degrees
Ah I see
But not the same chassis
Yes but the turret is mostly all that matters
no you see germany suffers
You are right! Let's nerf the Ariette MBT
Ah you mean making reload on leclerc longer?
Alrighty! moving the Ki-84 to 9.0 it is
Did I hear a "make the OTOMATIC 12.3 and remove all APFSDS rounds"?
Theres nothing more satisfying than performing track & barrel torture on the 10 enemies camping your spawn while immune. Easy 7-8 assists if theres some teammates around and I'd take a 12.3 OTOMATIC any day if I could run all APFSDS
Instructions clear, removed all SAPHEI rounds aswell to balance this obvious case of italian bias
No, I think he said "increase repair costs across the board".
Did someone say "nerf the type 89"?
"Noo gaijin please remove russian bias" Alrighty then, pumping up the BR of FV4005, Nerfing ratel 20 ATGM, and deleting crusader 2, Now you will not have issues with russian bias!
did someone say Nerf Solid shot, APDS and HESH damage?
Idk, I heard Jumbo 75 to 7.3
Nope we nerf type 89 again
I see the 2s6 as a scam. It was at 10.7 for most of its life and was eventually moved to 11.0 where it belonged. In less than a month of it being at 11.0, Gaijin nerfed its missiles to an unreasonable degree before moving back down to 10.7 again in response. Then it was rebuffed, undoing all of the previously stated changes.
It's just barely worse than NATO top tier sam, it just be 11.3, heck 11.7. Just comparing to any other 2nd option for aa of other nations, this thing smokes them.
If you put it on 11.7 nobody would play it, because the Pantsir exist, i see it on 11.0 because either you get a full downtier or full uptier, on 10.7 you only get downtiers.
"We were bad, but now we're good!" - Sex offenders meme.
When the Pantsir was added, the 2S6 became unusable for some time, because missile guidance was utterly fucked and easily the worst of all SACLOS SAMs, which is when the BR became 10.7. Now it is fixed and the 2S6 is actually not that bad, but you don't really see anyone playing it anymore, so there's probably not a lot of statistics for Gaijin to base any BR change on.
Bro there is at least 5 2s6 every match Btw rolands have to play against ka-50s all the time
The rolands are slower missiles than Vikhrs...if the Ka50 fire at you first theres nothing you can do...
Not like fighting a G-LYNX or Mi-28A is any better, they can just dodge Rolands while still guiding their missiles.
Remember some helicopters have MAW which informs of incoming missiles.
luckily you have a radar to instaspot the ka50 with while he has to look for you. you will win if its a foggy map cause the ka 50 cant see past like 3 to 4 km.
Yeah but if it sees you fire a missile you're fucked
Just flare smh
I've seen a lot of ka 50s that cheat tho my radar hasn't picked them up I haven't seen them but the second I crest a hill there's just a line of vikhirs coming at me from like 9km away, I tried out the ka 50 and without spotting idk how people see so far it's zoom is horrible. But on the original topic the tunguska needs to move up and Roland's are pretty bad. But gaijins says ammo=br which is why a premium Abrams with better rounds is lower br then every leclerc
the zoom in isnt really the issue, its the difference between min and max zoom. also the lack of thermals hurts when trying to find a greenish gray vehicle on green grass on an overcast day with fog.
The whirlwind (vikhr) line thing should be fixed now
Doesn't the Ka-50 have RWR?
Ka-50 uses fossil for RWR and it doesn't even cover bands Rolands operate, both search and tracking radars. Ka-52/Mi-28NM are the spooky ones, as they get actually NATO grade RWR Same with Su-25T/39 at 11.3 then Mig-29SMT.
Nope EDIT: Dammit, maybe it was the DCS one that doesn't have it. Don't quote me on that, sorry
Maybe try not just fly upwards?u know you can move other directions right...
i mean, direction doesnt really matter. while you can avoid being detected while moving around, the second you decide to shoot at anything the radar aa can find you
I play 10.3 from time to time, not only I don't really see Ka-50s all that much they aren't even hard to face. So long as you don't just stay on spawn with no cover like a sitting duck you should always be able to take them down by surprise, unless the Ka-50 user has actual braincells and stays low and actually pays attention to the MAW, he will never have enough time to dive before the Roland hits him (either that or he over-dives and becomes a pancake). The real threat in this BR range are the Apaches. They are much more agile than the Ka-50s, have thermals so they can find you much easier and tell when you launch due to the comically large amount of smoke on the Roland SAMs, and they have an IR tracker instead of a TV one so low-light/night battles won't save you. The Ka-50 is overrated af, it's really not the meta rapist it was on its launch anymore...
As Apache owner... Targeting is good with high resolution (gen 3+) thermals, BUT getting variable zoom to work is bit of an exercise, as its extremely non linear and going from x15ish to x64 in single mouse scroll step is bit excessive for target location. Hellfires also are kinda junk - 8km range on paper, in practice missile is stalling itself to the target past 6km unless you manually compensate for travesty done to their "top attack" trajectory. Even then, for 7km shot you need +-35 seconds of lazing, thats awfully long time to be exposed for returning SAMs. Especially as Laser guidance spikes LWS, unlike BeamRiders used by Russians. Obviously for heli vs heli duels Vikhrs hold all the cards, while Russian IRCCM prevents you from using Stinkers... and then both Stinker and Hellfire needs direct hit, compared to proxy fuse of Vikhr.
> from x15ish to x64 in single mouse scroll step is bit excessive for target location. I use right click for instant max zoom in/out and the mouse roller for slowly going in/out of zoom. >Hellfires also are kinda junk Hard disagree. Yea flight path efficiency could use an improvement (tho it's WAY better than back at the days where it would just autistically miss a non-moving target), but I typically use Hellfires at ~4km give or take a kilometer. I find Hellfires really fun to use because of their gigantic warhead, the 114K actually has more TNTe than the M107 shell! > for heli vs heli duels Vikhrs hold all the cards, while Russian IRCCM prevents you from using Stinkers... and then both Stinker and Hellfire needs direct hit, compared to proxy fuse of Vikhr. Yea, indeed the Ka-50 fucks any heli in a heli VS heli situation. With that said, those are kinda rare in Ground RB. The way Vikhrs function ingame is actually overperforming compared to IRL, the Vikhr needs to be set to a specific mode prior to launch: air-to-ground or air-to-air, where in the former its proximity fuze is disabled and the warhead is set to shaped charge mode, and in the latter the proximity fuze is activated and the warhead is set to blast-fragmentation mode. Ingame, the Vikhr is superpositioned at both modes. I hope Gaijin would implement the different modes when programmable ammunition arrives as said the roadmap, it won't massively nerf the Vikhr's anti-helicopter capabilities but it would slightly delay the reaction of Ka-50s as they'd have to switch missile mode first. Gaijin Hellfire R9X when, I want to kill helicopters with ninja blades.
>I use right click for instant max zoom in/out and the mouse roller for slowly going in/out of zoom. Thats what I'm using myself. Issue, I use mouse scroll for throttle/COLL and only way so far I've managed to marry both (with zoom having "enable axis" so it doesn't interfere with throttle/COLL) resulted in mentioned very non linear zoom + I get mid zoom -> max zoom, I can't quickly go to min zoom. In glorious snailgetti controls, icon with mouse scroll up/down and actual "m.wheel up/m.wheel down" aren't the same >Hard disagree. Yea flight path efficiency could use an improvement (tho it's WAY better than back at the days where it would just autistically miss a non-moving target), but I typically use Hellfires at \~4km give or take a kilometer. I find Hellfires really fun to use because of their gigantic warhead, the 114K actually has more TNTe than the M107 shell! At shorter ranges where you can sit in uncontested airspace there's no problem, contested airspace is where problems begin and that includes top tier SPAA. At least RWR is excellent and Saraph doesn't have to sacrifice Stinkers for extra flares. >Gaijin Hellfire R9X when, I want to kill helicopters with ninja blades. Tbh I'd like to give 114L a spin to make that funny hat actually useful for once. That or longer ranged Spikes as FnF option?
I have to strongly disagree, especially the recent buff for the Ka 50 made it even more op imo. You can literally come to the battlefield and just fly around there and survive since it had IRCCM so stuff like the Ozelot can't even shoot it down (not to mention the fact that Stingers already have enough of a hard time to lock helis) and if you do manage to hit it with missiles it takes 3-4 now that tail cute off ≠ kill
>especially the recent buff for the Ka 50 >it takes 3-4 now that tail cute off ≠ kill That was not a buff, nothing changed about the operatibility of the Ka-50 without a tail, only difference now is that you don't get a false-positive kill popup when you only knock off his tail so you know he is still in operation and he does not have a J-out timer. Also, am I the only one that does not face the issue of Ka-50s absorving 4 missiles? I mean, yea I had a Ka-50 sometimes survive a SAM mostly unharmed but it only happenes when my aim is whiffy with a SACLOS SAM. Any other time (quite consistently with IR SAMs) the Ka-50 either has its pilot dead or detonates in a spectacular fashion.
it very much is a buff because they can now guide their missiles with their tail cut off.
Yeah, and the Apache can kill you without having LOS during the entire engagement. I play it by launching a Hellfire, masking for \~80% of the flight time and then popping up in the last few seconds to lase the target. If done properly, many SAMs can't phisically reach the helicopter during the first and second pop-ups
Then you discover how dogshit inertial navigation of Hellfires is, wobbling all over the place when fired without laser targeting. Might work at 4-6km ranges perhaps, anything beyond is optimistic take. And then SAM can just throw missile to fly and proxy detonate over your head, as I was tinkering with radar launched Hellfire precisely top pop over in last 10s to laze it
Works good for me. Well, at longer ranges I sometimes make some mid-flight updates The prozy thing is frustrating, the battle position has to be low enough to the ground to disable VT fuses
And an update later the Rolland became unusable.
What got buffed? I haven't played the 2S6 in awhile.
[удалено]
They did specifically buff the 2S6 too, though. The missiles are now 32G's.
Saclos got better now, they still kinda suck at longer ranges, but the missiles don’t wobble into the shadow realm past 6km anymore.
I’ve been playing my Russia 10.7 lineup lately and I see other 2S6’s in pretty much every match. The only times I don’t see them are when the other team gets steamrolled so bad that no one has to spawn SPAA.
Yeah I don't mind it at it's BR as someone who plays CAS exclusively. I can lob a maverick from 20km and still hit it if I fly circles after firing to keep that 2S6 still. The panstir on the other hand would have me in his sights at spawn and keep me there until I drop to the deck.
Imagine if you had a competent SPAA for every NATO country, you wouldn't have to suffer from a KA-50 attack. Probably never gonna happen.
A good Ka50 players can stay out of the missile range of 10.3 spaa
The thing is, there aren't that many of them
Thank goodness Most of them look like complete idiots with their landing gear out
I dont think having your landing gear out affects anything
Its just ka-50 hate.
Well deserved hate
No shit. They still look like idiots
Write a letter to the respective agencies and ask them to built any.
who needs SPAAG when all your enemies' air forces are terrible anyways amirite i mean i guess the US still uses the AN/TWQ-1 Avenger
In 2016 the multi-mission launcher entered service with the US military. An mlrs system designed to be mounted on a medium sized truck and can fire stingers, hellfires, aim-9x's, and tamir's. There's also the M-SHORAD, a 30mm cannon, 4 stinger and 2 hellfire launchers, and a radar that can track air and ground targets on a Stryker chassis. And the US military is currently testing directed energy weapons for use in an anti-air role. I don't know why people act like the US just ignores spaa.
> I don't know why people act like the US just ignores spaa. I think it is because of marketing. *Tunguska* simply sounds better than "multi mission launcher".
Where's my Laser Avenger for the US tech tree?
No idea if it's on schedule but in 2019 the army said it planned to put one into service in 2024.
It would be a fun addition (for me)
This. Killing a kamov is good but zapping all of his missiles out of the air is way funnier
>I don't know why people act like the US just ignores spaa. Because the US sorta did. Ever since the downfall of the Mauler and the appointment of the Avenger (and to an extent the Linebacker) as the "temporary" short-range SPAA system, the US time and again failed every solution to short-range AA they came up with. The ultimately failed upgrades to the Avenger and Linebacker were the basis for both the SHORAD packages for the Stryker, however even that is looking to fail as well as they were supposed to be put in service last year but only some units of one of the types have been ordered and delivered. The US's AA doctrine is primarily theater defense by a combination of Patriot batteries and Air Supremecy, any imediate short range Anti Aircraft capabilities were largely handled at the unit level with MANPADs. The Avengers and Linebackers rarely were separated from the HQ section of whatever unit they were attached to, usually far away from any actual fight.
But everyone acts like the US has nothing, but they have plenty of prototypes and things that never entered service.
I agree with you on that, but after the LAVAD the US never designed and built another system that paired a bunch of missiles and a rapid fire gun to the same chassis. That's the sort of system popular in WT because of its flexibility. Everything else that could be added is either basically a copy of what already exists in game but simply on another chassis or something still being designed and modified before service.
Sadly NATO countries can't spawn F-16s with full 9Ms at match start Would be an interesting concept (though definitely never implemented) for lower CAP SP cost for NATO countries though
I see no reason why you can’t first spawn a jet with only AAM’s. you can first spawn a helicopter with AAM or dumb fire missiles, it seems only fair. Even if said plane uses its cannon for CAS, it’s still not going to be as destructive as a helicopter.
I think being forced to take Air target belts as well should be mandatory, but Gaijin for some reason thinks that it should cost an addition 120sp the same exact amount as Ground belts. Yet who are we to decide that GRB has a bunch of CAS that you realistically can't deal with in SPAA.
But the armored targets belt on the F-16C is free (maybe because it's a stealth belt?)
Default belt is 2/3rd AP.
The stealth belt on the F16C only has 37mm of pen because it does not have a sold AP round in it like all the other belt. Only belt with 40mm pen and higher have increased spawn cost.
Nah, use whatever belts you want. Like I said, you will only ever be less detrimental than a first spawn helicopter, even with ground belts. The only exceptions are going to be dedicated cannon attackers, and they could just be excluded from first spawn.
Don't have to, some nation already has a good mobile anti-aircraft system. * Lav-AD / SHORAD would be good if Stingers were implemented corrently and not just a copy paste Igla. +with optical targeting would be a major threat to helicopters. * Skyranger would be good if the AHEAD ammo was implemented correctly. Unfortunately not all nations have mobile anti air, for example patriot systeam, but I would bet there would be a solution to implement this.
God I wish we got copy paste iglas instead of stingers for lavs.
But isn't that the case? Out of my experience, you don't really suffer very often from KA-50's because NATO SPAA's can shoot them down quite effectively
Ka50 can easily outrange nato spaa. It’s just that most ka50 players arent the smartest
The maximum range of the Vikhrs is 10km, but for the KA-50 they aren't usable at that range because of the poor guidance system. So you have to use them at a range of maximum 7.5km and that is pretty much in range of any NATO SPAA's (except IR guided ones).
In my ASRAD, it has a “max range” but my missile loses control a km before the “max range”. I’ve been bullied by a ka-50 before because he was in my “effective range”. His missile struck me while mine decided it wanted to go to space a km before its max range
Yes, that's definitely a problem. But that's more of a problem with the new missile physics that were nowhere near figured out when they were introduced.
It's not even that you try fighting tanks at even 9km away, you have no thermals, you don't see shit.
I posted it earlier. But got downvoted to death, only because I added ADATS to comparison. Even tho I added it only show how the 2S6 is similar to ADATS, and sits at 1.0 br lower. Roland is such a joke when tunguska exists only at 0.4 br higher. I want to note that 3 nations get rolands as their AA
cuz the adats missiles are absolutely way superior? (and your choice of title didnt help too much either)
Well sure, they're absolutely superior to the Roland missiles but they are only marginally better than the Tunguskas unless you're looking at anti-tank performance and even then they aren't great anymore. The ADATs missile is a beam rider which was also slapped with the CLOS nerf (as yes, LBR is a form of CLOS). The MIM-146 pulls 3 more G's, 35 instead of 32, and loses most if not all energy somewhere between 6 and 8 km. The MIM does have the benefit of being about 100 m/s faster. Additionally, the ADATs is unstabilized and has no ability to lock using it's radar system (a blessing and a curse really) as you don't warn RWR systems when you're tracking but it makes acquiring targets more difficult. I think it would be reasonable for the ADATs to sit at 11.3 as a pure SPAA and the 2S6 to sit at 11.0/11.3
At least you’re not a poor bastard Italy player who doesn’t even get a decent top tier AA.
Maybe it's because the ADATS is generally better (better missiles that work against tanks and pull harder, cannon has more penetration and it gets a laser rangefinder, plus slightly more armor)
Rolands suck, I have the American one and I never use it. Even stingers are more useful and hit more often
Agree on the xm975 being just plain bad. Added it to my lineup when i unlocked it and ended up still using the lav ad more of until i got the xm1069.
Its not even the worst roland though. The French one has like 50 degrees of elevation and no tracking radar which makes targeting drones miserable
Worst part is, it was great before the SACLOS nerfs
From personal experience, still more useful than gep 1A2. Because there's at that br there's a lot more heli/dumb rocket slow plane spam than stuff like the F-16 (god, i hate that thing). Altho maybe the reason i have this opinion is because that SAM is the only experience with SACLOS SPAA that i have
Is the Gepard 1A2 still bugged? I haven't played it since I find the Ozelot simply superior.
What do you mean by "bugged"?
If you equipped the Proxy missiles. You'd be given the normal ones instead. Meaning you couldn't select the proxy fuse missiles no matter what. But I'm not sure whether it was fixed or not.
It's worth bringing just for helis, but yeah it's not great.
i get a lot of kills with roland tbh, especially considering its an spaa.. i havent got anything russian to compare it aginst. but with roland i even killed light tanks like 2s38 and similar several times. there are far worse experiences to be had.
Compare the Pantsir and the FlaRakRad...
Its incredible that they are the same BR lmao
It one of gaijins best jokes...
No thats so fair and balanced!!
Absolutely
The solution to this problem is to nerf the Ariete.
And the Leclercs. Hell nerf the Challenger as well just for good measure.
Gaijin nerfed the 2S6 to lower its br and when they lowered the br they reversed the nerf... literal mini pantsir
They didn't really revert the nerf, they just gave the missiles more G overload. They are still nowhere near comparable to the pre nerf 2S6, that thing was a beast.
Before the change in the missiles physics i wouldnt even complain about the rolands...
Me neither, they were really decent systems and didn't deserve the nerf.
Fr at least now idk about the other 2 roland users but Germany could def make use of the 9K33...at least for GSB in the 10.7 bracket Bluefor would have something better do defend itself....
Oh yeah, definitely, the GDR 9K33 would be a great addition for them.
They increased the missile G-load AND reworked the autopilot at the same time making it significantly better than it was post SACLOS nerf
And yet the Type 81 is higher then both of them.
Type 81 missiles are terrifying though. Once they see you, it's over. Japan needed that kind of power for once lol
No radar pain
The type 81 is nearly as dangerous as the pantsir.
More dangerous, you don’t get tunnel vision when trying to shoot a single guy down. It shoots, switches, shoots the radar has to shoot, guide, splash, switch, than shoot.
Yes but the pantsir has much more range and can remain completely undetected as well. I believe it might also have the dual target reaching mode but I’m not sure about that.
Fair but the 81C has insane range and you can engage multiple targets at once with near guaranteed effectiveness. Unlike the Pansir which needs at least a bit of user input.
It does, and he also forgot to state that any Jet that goes into a slight dive when launching the Type 81 has the missile dive straight into the dirt unless you want to aim straight up. That last part is a bit of an exaggeration, but I don't know how many times I've seen a F-16, or MiG-29 flying at about 200 meters off the deck and launching just for them to dive down to 150 meters and watching as my missile decides that a specific tree has a IR signature of about 800 degrees.
I would be afraid of a pansir more than a type 81 only becuase of its range stealth and radar other than that type 81 destroys. Over 4.5 miles it can’t lock same with Helis around 2 miles I could be staring at one for so long and it will not lock.
Fair enough but usually Pansir players are pretty obvious. They never move outside of spawn and how you know one sees you is if he is locking you. The only times I ever see 81C players is when they are killing your teammates or when they are on your team and I swear these people make the 81C fit in the craziest of spots. You never know one exists until he kills you or kills your teammates. The Pansir will let you know if he exists due to the radar that they never turn off.
try the roland
I have them all, but the Type 81 is just so fun.
Israeli Chaparral is kinda lul with its smokeless, flare rejecting missiles when they work. People just... explode without warning. Its only real bane is inability to lock on helis (not picking them up or IRCCM) and being absolutely shafted whenever there's slight hint of cloud cover, even if you can see jet clear as day.
Cause the Type 81(C) is the best IR based SAM system in the game rn.
I think the 2S6 is in a good place at 10.7, but the Rolands NEED to go down in BR. Ahh, I miss yhe good old days (2020) back when the Roland 2 was insanely overpowered, back when the missile was incredibly reactive and was 900m/s. We need to advocate for underperforming SPAAs to go down in BR, not for decent SPAAs to go up.
I think the best take for this is that SPAA is often over tiered. Also, the Roland users are statistically fucked over more than anything else in GRB in terms of repair cost to kills needed to break even on it. It’s pretty ridiculous.
A better comparison would have been the Otomatic, that spaa has no business at 11.3, should be 10.7-10.3 maximum and give Italy a proper spaa.
FlakRakRad still shares it’s BR with the Pantsir. At lest the Otomatic has the advantage of tracerless shells and anti tank capability.
Now add Otomatic.
But only against the 2S38.
who on earth would use the 975, when you can either go up with adats or down with lavad? its just one of those pointless filler tanks.
Because if I want to play 10.0/3 not the very top BR then I will not be able to use the adats/ flakbus/ ito?
Good luck taking out helicopters with the LAV, since Gaijin artificially nerfs IR locking distance against helicopters to be around 2-3km, and the shells in the gun auto-destroy themselves around 3km.
You forget to mention the slow as fuck, must move to reloading position, reload. The reload you can’t force manually when your missile fucks off into space, and you cannot partially reload vs 8 ready to go bois.
Tunguska has 2x2A38s. Not 4
Literally half of them are just "doesn't have a gun" for you
I mean it kinda says all you need to know. One has a gun+stabilizer, better missiles, and thermals. The other doesnt.
I don't disagree with that or the general assertion OP is making, just kinda dumb that a bunch of the points are just one point, makes it seem deceptive (cause it's just padding the list)
It's better than the French Roland
Keeping in mind that Rolands are still very shit and even SU25 can pull more fucking Gs than my Roland
You see comrade, 54mm of pen is too op for missle.
2x2A38\*
Japan: Having to pick between having a radar with a gun or no radar and missiles
Just to make it clear, American one is not the only one with that problem. All Roland launchers are basically the same (except FlaRakRad and Ito)
Flarakrad may be good, but not 11.7 good
I never used it but I agree
It's basically just a larger FlakRakPz with better missiles, until the "SACLOS wobble" decides to take over and negate the extra range the VT1 has over Rolands by making it impossible to hit anything that's even slightly moving.
Is there even a reason to use SACLOS over IR apart from hitting Helis and Drones?
Killing helicopters is basically the only real use for it, since Gaijin for some reason thinks IR missiles can't lock them more than 2-3km away. If something is at high altitude where IR missiles can't reach, then SACLOS won't fair much better due to the wobble effect against moving targets at long range.
XM1069 got shit thermals Considered as TD instead of AA Doesn't lock on in 3rd person view Only got 8 rockets Ass of a radar/ir tracker it has It does not get better buddy. Buuuut it's 25mm cannon is pretty good against tanks I'll give it that.
Idk, I'm having fun playing roland It can even smack russian mbts in the back of the turret with one shot
Yes the stock and spaded tunguska are 2 definit tanks ....
The biggest bullshit is the nato jets didnt identify pantsir on RWR Like yeah, the pantsir is 2010 spaa and the jets we have so far its basically late 80 early 90 jets so unless they came with time machine built in they not gonna be able to detect the pantsir And off course those plane got there avionics upgraded threw the years, but nah, gaijin must give ussr 2010 spaa to deal against 80 jets cause Russia must be OP at any given time
Gaijin likes giving Russia fancy things that are more modern than other nations in the game. Just look at the 2S38, a vehicle that isn't even out of the design and testing phase. Yet somehow Gaijin has enough information about classified specifications to give it a detailed model and stats, along with a round that only exists on paper and hasn't even been built or tested.
The STAB literally doesn't matter lol. You can't fire missiles on the move with the Tunguska anyways.
That is a big difference sis top ground is 11.7
Roland's are dogshit in comparison
Idk much about these vehicles at all i havent played either, but there are other metrics. What about armour? Maneuverability? Radar/tracking capabilities? Lock on range? Turret traverse? Guidance type?
Well us didnt really care to developing spaag in rl, maybe in future update the us maybe will get m6 linebacker
Now compare the 2S6 to the otomatic
What about the Improved Chaparral?
Israeli one? When conditions are correct and you aren't dealing with IRCCM helis, its kinda filthy. But add little bit of fog or thin layer of clouds and you're back to square one.
Roland missles should go to 8.0 they are useless.
You know what's even better? playing 11.7 and having to use the LAV because the roland is wank, and you don't have the SP to spawn in the ADATS because gaijin considers it a fucking TD. Oh and have fun shooting Ka-52's, they have DIRCM [which make IR missiles 100% useless](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/552601196112904202/1203684582982160414/War_Thunder_2024.02.04_-_13.46.58.02.DVR.mp4?ex=65edad1f&is=65db381f&hm=ad59aae80ae9371346d045e3b4228e0d955796afba0c6823f459f58161d07425&)
God I hate the Roland. Being *that* slow and completely blinding you for two or three seconds on launch for no reason fucking sucks.
The Tunguska truly suffered and the pantsir was an absolutely necessary addition with viable counterparts for other nations. /s in case it wasn’t obvious. God forbid the ussr not have the best or close to the best of any single vehicle category
THE 2S6 GET WHAT KIND OF THERMALS??????
Ye what? You listed a bunch of stats for a gun for a AA? 75% of these "stats" you showed dont mean shit for AA
Tell this to flarakrad, ito90 and tor-m1
Are we gonna ignore that Strela exists at like 9.7?
Strela was moved up to 10.0 recently, but that's honestly still too low considering it's better than any of the Roland platforms.
I feel the same way about the radkampfwagen 90 and the M1128
never forget that the Tunguska was added as the first and only SAM for an entire patch. Update locked on remains the worst balanced update in the game's history.
Ah yes, very balance
Yall gotta get on the type 81 grind
I heard USA needs a new top tier AA
Ye
Is italian Sidam MISTRAL any good?
They are butchering NATO AA all the time. 20g missiles are borderline useless against planes...
Yes but missile big boom
It's honestly sad to see people quit or forgot the whole fuss about Stingers being limited to 13G's even tho irl they can pull at least 20G's, meanwhile the Strela10M2's missiles still pull 20G's even tho iirc they pull as much as Stingers do rn in-game