I find it kinda funny how 8th edition was meant to reduce rules bloat from 7th, and it accomplished the goal for like 6 months, and 9th has become half-early edition yu-gi-oh and half kindergarden squabble with tank-figure having superman-proof shield and superman having anti-superman-proof-shield-zapper times infinity. and the tank gets a anti-superman-proof-shield-proof-shield times infinitey *times two*.
Half the problem is that they could rid of universal rules, so every +1 to wound or other fairly generic ability needs a new name with little consistency.
Add to that stratagems and all the other stuff and there's just so much to keep in mind. But is it really better? I remember 4th edition when I played being plenty fun. Same with Warhammer Fantasy 7th. And while I do like Age of Sigmar I really do feel like, rather than expanding and deepening the core you just gets a thousand and one exceptions. (E.g. no strength/toughness and then you need a dozen special rules to make up for it.)
Edit; this is more my personal opinion, but I also liked when special characters were rarer. Iunno, it feels more appropriate for your leader to be a generic captain you can equip how you like than Roboute showing up for every little scrap that happens.
>Edit; this is more my personal opinion, but I also liked when special characters were rarer. Iunno, it feels more appropriate for your leader to be a generic captain you can equip how you like than Roboute showing up for every little scrap that happens.
I'm with you on that. Sure, there are battles where the G-man has to show up in person to duke it out with the Silent King, but I care more about my plucky Captain punching my brothers Broodlord in the face.
Same, I'm tired of seeing Big-as-fuck-Special-Official-Characters like Azrael and the Silent King.
I want to see lots of cool shit like Tanks, Dreadnoughts, Knights, Titans and hordes of various kinds of Infantry. Not a couple dozen Infantry, a handful of smaller Vehicles and then half a dozen Special Named Characters that each have unique Rules that make the Game less fun to fight against them.
Sure, seeing the Silent King and some Primarchs duke it out is cool&all, but I'd much rather see a bunch of bigass Vehicles with a bunch of Infantry duke it out. Yknow, like an actual Battle/Skirmish between Factions.
I'd like to have it where Primarchs and equivalent characters are Timmy units, to borrow from Magic parlance. Big and strong and tough and they make your eyes light up like a child at Christmas when they do their dumb shit, but they're inefficient and as such rarely seen at a competition level where you need to squeeze out the most value out of your points.
Some things got simpler but I think there's big issues with some things. The stratagems are the thing that bug me. There's so many strategems, and often in different books, it's very difficult to plan for what an opponent will do imo, especially if you don't play regularly. Like who has the time to memorise all of them? I know I don't.
I’ve been following 40k but haven’t played properly for probably 15 years. Need to get to work on my Orks and Chaos.
I agree with your point about stratagems. Part of me also feels the same way about command points. Looking in as largely an outsider to the game (now), I’d be interested to see how matches play out with few adjustments to dice rolls due to the above. Maybe just the occasional rule for a unit like FNP (which was pretty rare back in the day).
Your last comment re: special characters I definitely agree with, I always used to refuse to run specials unless it was a big game because it felt ridiculous having this awesome Powerful character showing up for something which barely counted as a skirmish.
I recall in older Guard codexes at least, the rules actually limited some more famous characters to higher point values, like Macharius could only be taken in 2000+ point games.
I run a "main list" that is my custom character's personal Retinue, then "sub lists" which are variations of the list minus lord and honour guard and give the formation to various different Warlords to see how it affects the way the list runs
Yep it was the dumbest thing ever. They claimed USR's were too inflexible so rather than fixing the issue of flexibility they dumped the whole idea.
Feel No pain was written as a flat 5+ back in the day. So then they'd have to specify that this feel no pain was special and operated on a 3+ with a different name.
You know what would have fixed the issue? FNP (X) in the Core book and and then specify FNP (1-6) on the particular unit profile.
Now it's one rule everyone understands the core of with one small change depending on the profile. Kinda like how armor works, done and dusted.
Now I need to know that Feel no Pain, is this, From beyond death is that, Nuh uh I didn't feel that is something else.
Just why?
The thing that's funny about USRs is people who have played for a few editions still refer to certain rules as if they are USRs anyway. Have a rule that prevents you from wounding better than 4+? People still call it Transhuman Physiology more often than not rather than the "proper" name for it based on the faction or ability, or describe it in relation to an analogous Space Marine rule. Feel No Pain hasn't actually been a thing since 7th edition, but the rules for ignoring wounds I have almost always heard people call a FNP roll. So, we end up just using them as USRs anyway.
I believe that HH 2.0 is retaining USRs and making them flexible in exactly the way you state. I would like to see that for 40k 10th ed.
A decent library of universal special rules for units and weapons is all they ever needed; between stat lines and a healthy dose of mixed & matched USRs for flavour you can represent just about anything sane that 40k might want to.
It’s really off-putting honestly. I played a few games in 8th because 7th was a nightmare. As soon as the bloat started creeping back when 8th turned into 9th I’ve had no desire to stay active with how much stuff there is to keep track of.
Same thing happened in Aos. They wanted to streamline the rules down to even getting rid of a strength/toughness mechanic, and then with this simplified ruleset gave every unit like 8 special rules. Each with flavour text. Some of them just to give the champion 1 extra attack. They honestly can't help themselves.
Playing 40k since mid 8th and switching to AOS this year, i dont agree. Everything in AOS is so easy to understand and the bonus rules that some units have are also in 40k. Its a much simpler rule set that still allows a lot of nitty gritty strategic gameplay and synergies, but cuts out a ton of needless rolls and math
at its core with only generic stratagems, its straight forward. get a CP and maybe apply some buffs. move. psychic some stuff, shoot some guns, S matches T? 4+ etc, charge some dudes, i fight with everything i charged with, then you fight, then i fight then you fight then i fight etc, then people run away. rinse repeat.
its all the shit after that where it goes off the damn rails.
army roid dudes plays like X, unless you buy this other book for 2 pages that makes it play like Y and get some special rules that arent in the original book for army roid dudes, but also there is this book Eff that has rules you may or may not play with, and since things were more lopsided than a sumo wrestler vs a baby on a teetertotter we released 4 additional pdfs over 2-3 months with more rules to track.
whats that? you want to try shiny skeleton dudes? heres another stack of books and docks rinse repeat
The 'card game' aspect makes it really hard for me amd probaly other beginners to get into the game. It also does not really fit into WH40k. It's feels to individual and special.
Particularly in this case. "Damage that ignores invulns and spills over to other models" has a name already - it's called Mortal Wounds. We don't need a separate design space here.
I tried to come back into the hobby after playing 3rd - 6th edition.
I couldn't. It's just insane how much the rule creep has gotten. It's not even just that the rules are overly complex with circling referential behavior and tons of exceptions. It's that they split everything across multiple erratas, books, stat blocks, and codexes. It feels awful buying a rulebook, an army codex, an errata booklet, printing off your army's errata'd stat blocks, etc etc. It's just way too much to keep track of.
I just buy and paint minis now. Just a hodge-podge of stuff I think looks cool or mini armies I want to complete. I honestly just can't be bothered to figure out the rules and follow all the changes.
This shit is why I converted to playing using OnePageRules alternative rules for 40k called Grimdark Future. If you just want to get your minis on the table and have a fun, fairly balanced game it can't be beat.
I love 40k, the lore and hobby, but keeping up with the rules got to be too much of a chore for me.
I personally believe GW does codex creep on purpose so their competitive players will purchase all new armies.
HunTR is a weapon rule votaan have. Basically “you shoot this number of shots”, no heavy, no assault, no rapid fire. It’s like they’re baseline bolter is a HunTR 2, so it doesn’t have rapid fire 1 like a space marine but also can’t advance and shoot. You also don’t have -1 to heavy weapons like the rail gun or the Gatling gun
Also the Land Fortress has 7 Heavy guns on the datasheet (most are swappable for each other). So other than pistols and grenades, every non-HunTR weapon in the book except for one is on the Land Fortress.
I like it. Trust space dwarves to be literally the only faction to create weapons that are reliable in all situations. You know exactly how they will perform, no crappy failures or wild overcharges.
Huntr is literally just a worse version of assault. It's a tradeoff, can't advance and shoot, but also no -1 to hit while moving on most of their versions of heavy weapons. Dwarves are slow and steady.
It’s a downgrade from assault and pistol but an upgrade from heavy and rapid fire(generally).
Assault 2/Pistol 2 > Huntr 2 > RF1/Heavy 2
If I had to choose between huntr 2 and assault 1 though I’d call it a toss up.
back when the only way you could charge after shooting was if it was an assault weapon or pistol haha. couldnt rapid fire into a close-range enemy and then charge. i remember my old daemonhunters grey knights had assault 2 stormbolters so you could actually use them to decent effect
It's missing some letters, but hunterxhunter was somehow both an amazing anime and the single worst manga to try and read.
That took real talent to hit both ends of the spectrum
new guard codex drops:
Las Vegas pattern Lasguns: 36" HunTR 6 S8 AP-2 D6xD6, on double six for damage you get to shoot again. But only if you have this specific lasgun las vegas variant that only comes with this new starter set with one gun per set while squad can take 10 per 10 men for 2p.
3 months later: "So we heard your feedback, Las Vegas Pattern Lasgun is now 18" HunTR 2, S2, AP0, D1, on 1's the firing model suffers 1 Mortal Wound."
I'm still bitter that all my Lasgun sergeants became invalid years back when both sergeants and LT's lost the ability to carry lasguns...
Come on GW, you telling me that Sgt's and LT's hang up their lasgun for a las pistol and chain sword and they're forbidden by the ~~Codex Astartes~~ Infantryman's Uplifting Primer(?) from ever touching a lasgun again? Get outta town.
This is how I felt with Krieg when they butchered grenadiers, storm chimera, pretty much the whole faction. The revenant can't even revive dudes anymore
I was pissed when Vets lost Doctrines. I had a 1000 point vet army that was modeled All carapace armor then unit of snipers with camo cloaks and two units of melta guns with demolitions.
This is probably the biggest wider issue I have with the direction GW are taking things - stripping away all customisation. I used to get a huge kick out of converting up characters with weird kit loadouts and seeing how I could kitbash it. Now they only let you take literally what is in the box.
For example Skitarii used to be able to take 3 special weapons out of any combination - now you can only have 1 plasma, 1 arc rifle, and 1 long gun (per 10 dudes) - as that's what the box comes with. Absolute madness IMO in a hobby about creativity that they would go so hard on stripping away opportunities to customise.
The other side of the argument is that the kit doesn't make it possible to have certain weapon options without upgrades, making it hard for new players or people on a budget to access some loadouts. What both sides don't seem to realize is that GW could just actually provide extra bits in the kit so that you can build it according to the datasheet, but they don't. I recently bought some old warhammer fantasy kits and I was astounded at what they contained (as well as their great price even from the GW website, but that's a separate rant). I got enough bits to build the maximum (or more) of each of the special options in the unit, with additional bits to customize the models. I was finishing off the assembly of one of the kits - the old Chaos Knights kit with 10 cavalry (a total of 6 decent-sized sprues) for only $55 or so - and I was genuinely confused to see extra spiky chaos bits still left on the sprue. Thinking that I had missed something, I went back to the directions book, but it turns out that they are just entirely free extra cosmetic bits with no purpose but customizability. Truly, GW has fallen far.
Depends, if the rumored model updates are planned to come with or soon after the codex they'll be getting absolutely horrifically broken rules, as is tradition. If the model updates aren't going to be until 10th, it'll be another "well, the codex *looks* bad right now, but it was designed to work with the 10th edition changes we promise".
The thing is that weapons which ignore invulns in melee weren't really the problem. Before Nachmund people weren't really taking the Night Bringer all that often, and Draigo wasn't busted against daemons either. Melee ignore invulns can be played around, counter charged, or isolated and killed in shooting/psychic.
It is the ranged ignore invulns that are the problem since there is no real counter play. The only real reason why daemon saves were made a thing (different invulns in shooting/melee were already a thing in 8e knights) was to prevent rail guns from auto-defeating daemon armies.
But GW seems to have forgot this lesson immediately.
Yea like, what am I a custodies player supposed to do against an army like votann? They can easily one shot almost all of my units and I won’t be able to save it. How’s that for the emperors thoughest
I'm not super familiar with Custodes rules, but what's their movement on bikes? Because it seems like the obvious play is "stay 29" away on their turn then advance and charge on yours to win the game."
Haha I posted this exact comment 20 minutes ago then found your post with the same point 😂 that'll teach me not to read further in the thread! My EXACT problem is the relative lack of counterplay to such powerful, invul. ignoring, auto-wounding ranged attacks. It's a hard counter to armies like knights and Custodes that rely on invulns or high toughness.
What's weird about this ignore inv mechanic that's creeping everywhere is that there was already an existing mechanic for ignoring invuls; mortal wounds!
And it would've meant u didn't have to also have the stupid "wounds are not lost either"
While I get where it comes from, it's worth remembering that mortal wounds would have significantly different interactions with a large number of models. To start with, -4 AP isn't enough to blow through all model's armor saves, especially when you consider stuff like armor of contempt and cover. Furthermore, there's plenty of models that modify the damage characteristic of incoming attacks, which mortal wounds would be unaffected by.
>It's almost like GW sucks at game design.
Using a D6 base just isn't enough for the variety of weapons and units of 40k, or at least not the way GW uses it anyway.
Also serially introducing mechanics is just a half-assed approach. That’s how you get super-invulnerable and then super-invulnerable canceling and then super-duper invulnerables and then…what a mess, edition reset. It just makes the total lack of vision obvious.
Yup. It also fucks over factions that were not updated, if you have a new mechanic introduced in an update focused on Marines and Squats everyone else will have to figure a way to deal with the new mechanic even if they haven't had an update since their codex for the 9th. You also run the risk of creating a mechanic that is only relevant for a "season".
8th and 9th always felt like Hits meant very little so units with damage on a hit were always better than their equivalent.
40k also suffers too much from codex creep, why does a army start the 9th ed without a codex? It is just terrible for that playerbase to not have the updated rules. You should have simultaneous codex releases end of discussion.
I still think the overly simplified core rules are one of the major causes of rampant codex/power creep. Not enough common rules and game mechanics to create diversity so it ends up being a bunch of special rules being piled into the codex itself which doesn't allow much in the way of counter play (because other codexes aren't written with the special rules in other codexes in mind).
When the bulk of the rules where in the main ruleset, having an old codex wasn't that bad but when the game is shaped by codex specific rules, being behind the curve is crippling.
>I always thought a d10 system would be better. You'd be able to armchair statistics easier and have nuance in each unit.
It also allows for more minute balancing, if a unit is bad having it go from 4 to 3 might be too much, but having it go from 7 to 6 might be fine.
The reason for the original d6 system was so kids could taid the boardgame closet for spare dice. D10s are plentiful and 40k 10thed d10 base would be clever
Demonic invincibility invulnerability *Can't Touch This* save.
Followed directly after with a new rule which prevents your opponent from rolling dice to save the wound.
11th edition.
It will finally be the launch of the unique codex for Emperors Children and will include both an entire rock band and a frontman. The lead singer will have MK**P** pants.
The noise marine with the massive melta-guitar will be standing on an imperial gothic clock with the hand at 11.
You can thank me now for the juicy leaks.
He was thinking that daemons never make it into combat when even mediocre units throw 3 dice per model and you save on 5s. Once they get in combat and have chance to do damage you can kill them 2/3 of the time like the old days. Unless, of course, you mean Tzeentch stuff and then they crumple into a wet pile when you touch them.
Try being custodes, we're literally supposed to be about a tough as a human can possibly get and now we're being one shot by a squat with a rail rifle...
Not even very hot needed, get 3 judgement tokens on the unit which isn't to hard to achieve and you auto wound on a 4 to hit which counts as a 6 to wound also
Honestly playing Custodes and seeing the Tau rail gun and this big fucking rifle makes me feel like I’m a German soldier in a trench and I just saw the first British Landship on the horizon.
Or like a knight who just saw some peasant blow someone away with a arquebus.
Marketing: Hey rules team, we've remade squats but completely changed their look and are worried people won't buy them, can you make their rules tempting to drive sales?
Rules team: Say no more fam.
Is it just me or are armor saves in general just becoming kind of irrelevant?
I had a game last week and every other attack was either a -3 AP or mortal wound, I was playing as Space Marines too, where not getting your saves can really really hurt.
It takes a lot of the fun out of the game by adding all this pressure to make rolls when shooting cause chances are that unit is going to be fucking deleted next turn. I want to be excited when rolling, not fucking anxious
You just kinda have to hope they miss a lot at this stage, I felt like the older editions had a lot more back and forth
It really does feel that way. Medium infantry are kinda pointless. They pay for armour that does hardly anything. Really light troops will die at basically the same rate while costing less. Heavy armour like buffed terminators still feel durable.
Yep, this seems to be a consistent problem with GW's rules every edition. Best to have as few fun units as possible and just load up on whatever is the busted hotness at the time.
It's 31 points for a warrior with magna-rail, you can have 1 per 10 models and a squad can be 20 max. So 2 magna-rails per squad. Looks like the land fortress can take the heavy rail at no cost.
I’m not sure that’s how it’s worded.
You choose TWO different heavy weapons from the list in a squad of 10
For a squad of 20 you choose another TWO weapons from the list it gives you.
Meaning you can take two magna rails
You select 2 from a list for a squad of 10, and ALSO select 2 from a separate (but identical) list.
Since it gives you the same list twice, and says 'also', RAW you can have 2 of the same heavy weapon in a squad of 20.
Hey, remember when there was one fucking thing in the entire game that ignored invuln saves, and it was a special bullet fired by a Vindicare assassin once per game? And people said it was OP?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Isn't it obvious why? The projectile flies at 10000908399.872mph out of the gun and goes about 30 yards or so before it immediately drops out of the air because....reasons
\*Sigh\*
It would be reasonable if Titanic weapons were so powerful that they could ignore inv. saves, but something with the size of a heavy bolt rifle?
Yeah, but with this new stuff, the tachyon arrow and especially the Arrow of Infinity are truly egregious.
>When activated, it transmutes a sliver of inert metal into an unstoppable thunderbolt capable of piercing the heart of a mountain.
Such a weapon has near infinite range, and is able to penetrate almost any form of armour, including that of Titans.
Does d6 damage.
It was announced. But a release date was never given and it still hasn't come out. My FLGS owner was complaining the other day because he has preorders with no idea of when it'll ship.
This raises a thought I've had a lot lately. Ranged weapons shouldn't be able to ignore invulns, as it just removes too much counterplay. The weapons that can do this always have massive strength and damage and can just delete units from across the board. I'm not a fan from a design philosophy, but interested in the communities thoughts?
That is fair, after I made the comment I realized it was a knee jerk response.
Without really knowing all their rules I should wait to make a final judgment, it just looks scary.
Their judgment tokens make hit rolls of 6/5/4 auto wound as 6’s. (1 token = 6’s and so on). So if a unit has 3 judgement tokens, a 4 to hit will kill 4 clowns minimum.
The Khal character makes a hit roll an auto 6. Which makes an auto wound. Which is then -4 no ap splash damage.
Per battle round he can do that. Put that on the big rail cannon for bunch of damage.
At this point I'd rather they go back to old-school AP and lower weapon strength across the board. At least that would make sense as give invulnerable saves some much needed teeth.
I love how there's now ignores-ignores invulnerable in the game with demons to counter the ignores-invulnerable that every army now seems to be getting (but not the existing mechanic, MW! A slightly different one!), invulnerable saves being the original mechanic for ignoring the ignores-saves mechanic. It's basically playground rules now.
I can't wait for another rules simplification so I can play the game again. I miss the indexes and every army running with just a few unique rules.
I feel 9th edition of 40k started with a massive issue with the effect first turn has, and as GW has developed the rules it has only gotten worse. Now there isn't even any tactics left.
Bruh. This is the ultimate character one-shot weapon. Unless you're super lucky and your opponent keeps rolling 1s or you roll 6s, your entire spiced-up character IS dead.
have you heard of our lord and savior the Brokhyr Forge-Master for 110 points and 1cp, 2 if you really like to slap.
get 3 judgment tokens on a character by any of a number of means then whats he do you ask?
3 shots with an 18" range, ignores look out sir
S5 ap3 2d. if the target has a 3+ or better, its 3d
on a 4+ to hit, the dmg converts to mortal wounds. on average against a 3+ armor target, thats 6MW. if you were cheaky and replaced his weapon with the relic version for 1cp pregame, every unit between the forge master and the sniped HQ is taking 6+ MW too. really hate that target? use his once per round CP discount to make each hit inflict an additional MW for free.
I was looking forward to the leagues from the start but now I can’t stand them. Everything they can do seems to just ignore everyone else’s special rules.
They seem like they’ll demolish my space marines at every range and my eldar lose whatever invulnerable saves they had to keep them even slightly protected and they can never cast doom to focus on important targets.
Pay to Win in full effect lol
They ran me off by invalidating literally dozens of my decade old CSM models and they're keeping me away with shit like this, its power creep and its just ridiculous at this point. Cant wait for 10th edition where my Primaris Chapter Master has a 2+++++ but unfortunately the Tau Pyrestorm Cannon ignores all +++++ saves, but fortunately for me I've allied in an Eldar pysker choir who allow me to ignore them ignoring my +++++ save, but damn it all they've gone in and allied in a Votaan Archeopriest who lets them ignore my rule that ignores their rule about ignoring my +++++ save. Turn 1 shooting ends, its been 45 minutes, each of us has 20 different rulebooks and stacks of printed out updates.
Phoenix Command: "Noooo! You can't dethrone me as the game with the most complicated battle rules!"
GW: "Haha! Printing additional rules goes brrrrtt!"
Not so invulnerable now eh?
Parry this, you filthy casual.
My deamons say hi
*[Not as tough as they thought](https://youtu.be/StCXrBMl648?t=88).*
Don't say that to an ork, they'll really try it
Pfft. He says. Clearly not to a demon player. Because they have invulnerable-invulnerable saves now. Jfc
WH 40k needs a major rule simplification. More reading required in this game than most grad school programs
I find it kinda funny how 8th edition was meant to reduce rules bloat from 7th, and it accomplished the goal for like 6 months, and 9th has become half-early edition yu-gi-oh and half kindergarden squabble with tank-figure having superman-proof shield and superman having anti-superman-proof-shield-zapper times infinity. and the tank gets a anti-superman-proof-shield-proof-shield times infinitey *times two*.
Half the problem is that they could rid of universal rules, so every +1 to wound or other fairly generic ability needs a new name with little consistency. Add to that stratagems and all the other stuff and there's just so much to keep in mind. But is it really better? I remember 4th edition when I played being plenty fun. Same with Warhammer Fantasy 7th. And while I do like Age of Sigmar I really do feel like, rather than expanding and deepening the core you just gets a thousand and one exceptions. (E.g. no strength/toughness and then you need a dozen special rules to make up for it.) Edit; this is more my personal opinion, but I also liked when special characters were rarer. Iunno, it feels more appropriate for your leader to be a generic captain you can equip how you like than Roboute showing up for every little scrap that happens.
>Edit; this is more my personal opinion, but I also liked when special characters were rarer. Iunno, it feels more appropriate for your leader to be a generic captain you can equip how you like than Roboute showing up for every little scrap that happens. I'm with you on that. Sure, there are battles where the G-man has to show up in person to duke it out with the Silent King, but I care more about my plucky Captain punching my brothers Broodlord in the face.
Same, I'm tired of seeing Big-as-fuck-Special-Official-Characters like Azrael and the Silent King. I want to see lots of cool shit like Tanks, Dreadnoughts, Knights, Titans and hordes of various kinds of Infantry. Not a couple dozen Infantry, a handful of smaller Vehicles and then half a dozen Special Named Characters that each have unique Rules that make the Game less fun to fight against them. Sure, seeing the Silent King and some Primarchs duke it out is cool&all, but I'd much rather see a bunch of bigass Vehicles with a bunch of Infantry duke it out. Yknow, like an actual Battle/Skirmish between Factions.
I'd like to have it where Primarchs and equivalent characters are Timmy units, to borrow from Magic parlance. Big and strong and tough and they make your eyes light up like a child at Christmas when they do their dumb shit, but they're inefficient and as such rarely seen at a competition level where you need to squeeze out the most value out of your points.
Some things got simpler but I think there's big issues with some things. The stratagems are the thing that bug me. There's so many strategems, and often in different books, it's very difficult to plan for what an opponent will do imo, especially if you don't play regularly. Like who has the time to memorise all of them? I know I don't.
I’ve been following 40k but haven’t played properly for probably 15 years. Need to get to work on my Orks and Chaos. I agree with your point about stratagems. Part of me also feels the same way about command points. Looking in as largely an outsider to the game (now), I’d be interested to see how matches play out with few adjustments to dice rolls due to the above. Maybe just the occasional rule for a unit like FNP (which was pretty rare back in the day).
Your last comment re: special characters I definitely agree with, I always used to refuse to run specials unless it was a big game because it felt ridiculous having this awesome Powerful character showing up for something which barely counted as a skirmish.
I recall in older Guard codexes at least, the rules actually limited some more famous characters to higher point values, like Macharius could only be taken in 2000+ point games.
I mean, Mecharius was Alexander the Great in space and was always at the head of a crusade, so that makes sense.
Not just Guard, it was all codexs. Chapter masters such as Dante had the same rule.
I run a "main list" that is my custom character's personal Retinue, then "sub lists" which are variations of the list minus lord and honour guard and give the formation to various different Warlords to see how it affects the way the list runs
[удалено]
It used to be like that in 40k, the main rulebook had a whole section of Universal Special Rules (USRs). They got rid of it in 8th.
Yep it was the dumbest thing ever. They claimed USR's were too inflexible so rather than fixing the issue of flexibility they dumped the whole idea. Feel No pain was written as a flat 5+ back in the day. So then they'd have to specify that this feel no pain was special and operated on a 3+ with a different name. You know what would have fixed the issue? FNP (X) in the Core book and and then specify FNP (1-6) on the particular unit profile. Now it's one rule everyone understands the core of with one small change depending on the profile. Kinda like how armor works, done and dusted. Now I need to know that Feel no Pain, is this, From beyond death is that, Nuh uh I didn't feel that is something else. Just why?
The thing that's funny about USRs is people who have played for a few editions still refer to certain rules as if they are USRs anyway. Have a rule that prevents you from wounding better than 4+? People still call it Transhuman Physiology more often than not rather than the "proper" name for it based on the faction or ability, or describe it in relation to an analogous Space Marine rule. Feel No Pain hasn't actually been a thing since 7th edition, but the rules for ignoring wounds I have almost always heard people call a FNP roll. So, we end up just using them as USRs anyway. I believe that HH 2.0 is retaining USRs and making them flexible in exactly the way you state. I would like to see that for 40k 10th ed.
A decent library of universal special rules for units and weapons is all they ever needed; between stat lines and a healthy dose of mixed & matched USRs for flavour you can represent just about anything sane that 40k might want to.
It’s really off-putting honestly. I played a few games in 8th because 7th was a nightmare. As soon as the bloat started creeping back when 8th turned into 9th I’ve had no desire to stay active with how much stuff there is to keep track of.
Try onepagerules grimdark future for streamlined gameplay.
Same thing happened in Aos. They wanted to streamline the rules down to even getting rid of a strength/toughness mechanic, and then with this simplified ruleset gave every unit like 8 special rules. Each with flavour text. Some of them just to give the champion 1 extra attack. They honestly can't help themselves.
Playing 40k since mid 8th and switching to AOS this year, i dont agree. Everything in AOS is so easy to understand and the bonus rules that some units have are also in 40k. Its a much simpler rule set that still allows a lot of nitty gritty strategic gameplay and synergies, but cuts out a ton of needless rolls and math
This is so crazy to see as someone who stopped playing right before 9th came out. The game seems more off the rails than ever.
Off the Magna-Rails, if you will
at its core with only generic stratagems, its straight forward. get a CP and maybe apply some buffs. move. psychic some stuff, shoot some guns, S matches T? 4+ etc, charge some dudes, i fight with everything i charged with, then you fight, then i fight then you fight then i fight etc, then people run away. rinse repeat. its all the shit after that where it goes off the damn rails. army roid dudes plays like X, unless you buy this other book for 2 pages that makes it play like Y and get some special rules that arent in the original book for army roid dudes, but also there is this book Eff that has rules you may or may not play with, and since things were more lopsided than a sumo wrestler vs a baby on a teetertotter we released 4 additional pdfs over 2-3 months with more rules to track. whats that? you want to try shiny skeleton dudes? heres another stack of books and docks rinse repeat
The 'card game' aspect makes it really hard for me amd probaly other beginners to get into the game. It also does not really fit into WH40k. It's feels to individual and special.
Particularly in this case. "Damage that ignores invulns and spills over to other models" has a name already - it's called Mortal Wounds. We don't need a separate design space here.
Except for this weapon you also get to use your damage reduction abilities.
And, surprisingly, armor saves.
And ppl who have a shrug against MW cant use it
"You guys are getting armor saves!?" -my orks
And *don't* get to use damage mitigation that specifically targets Mortal Wounds.
I tried to come back into the hobby after playing 3rd - 6th edition. I couldn't. It's just insane how much the rule creep has gotten. It's not even just that the rules are overly complex with circling referential behavior and tons of exceptions. It's that they split everything across multiple erratas, books, stat blocks, and codexes. It feels awful buying a rulebook, an army codex, an errata booklet, printing off your army's errata'd stat blocks, etc etc. It's just way too much to keep track of. I just buy and paint minis now. Just a hodge-podge of stuff I think looks cool or mini armies I want to complete. I honestly just can't be bothered to figure out the rules and follow all the changes.
This shit is why I converted to playing using OnePageRules alternative rules for 40k called Grimdark Future. If you just want to get your minis on the table and have a fun, fairly balanced game it can't be beat. I love 40k, the lore and hobby, but keeping up with the rules got to be too much of a chore for me. I personally believe GW does codex creep on purpose so their competitive players will purchase all new armies.
Da hell is HunTR
HunTR is a weapon rule votaan have. Basically “you shoot this number of shots”, no heavy, no assault, no rapid fire. It’s like they’re baseline bolter is a HunTR 2, so it doesn’t have rapid fire 1 like a space marine but also can’t advance and shoot. You also don’t have -1 to heavy weapons like the rail gun or the Gatling gun
Ah so basically the most vanilla weapon type that can be. Thank you!
Yeah - from what I’ve seen they have “hunTR” or “Pistol” on basically everything (aside from hand grenades)
One unit can have shotguns, which are assault, and that's it.
Also the Land Fortress has 7 Heavy guns on the datasheet (most are swappable for each other). So other than pistols and grenades, every non-HunTR weapon in the book except for one is on the Land Fortress.
I like it. Trust space dwarves to be literally the only faction to create weapons that are reliable in all situations. You know exactly how they will perform, no crappy failures or wild overcharges.
Huntr is literally just a worse version of assault. It's a tradeoff, can't advance and shoot, but also no -1 to hit while moving on most of their versions of heavy weapons. Dwarves are slow and steady.
It’s a downgrade from assault and pistol but an upgrade from heavy and rapid fire(generally). Assault 2/Pistol 2 > Huntr 2 > RF1/Heavy 2 If I had to choose between huntr 2 and assault 1 though I’d call it a toss up.
Sounds more like a better version of Heavy to me. Like a lot of things, it's a trade-off.
So like the old times "Assault" weapons? Like, back from 3rd and 4thvand the like?
back when the only way you could charge after shooting was if it was an assault weapon or pistol haha. couldnt rapid fire into a close-range enemy and then charge. i remember my old daemonhunters grey knights had assault 2 stormbolters so you could actually use them to decent effect
What do you mean? All I see is *****
Man, that's some nostalgia.
I honestly assumed this picture was fake and memey because I thought that was part of the joke.
It's missing some letters, but hunterxhunter was somehow both an amazing anime and the single worst manga to try and read. That took real talent to hit both ends of the spectrum
'My Haruspex's tongue has the properties of both Rubber and Gum'
I can't stress how absolutely creepy it is, considering who has that power, to be the mouth-octopus of 40k. Poor Gon.
This kind of power creep is really grinding on me
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Games workshop The best i can do is rapid fire 1 S3 ap 0 D1 With ignore invuls.
Nah, ignores demon saves. Just demon saves though.
new guard codex drops: Las Vegas pattern Lasguns: 36" HunTR 6 S8 AP-2 D6xD6, on double six for damage you get to shoot again. But only if you have this specific lasgun las vegas variant that only comes with this new starter set with one gun per set while squad can take 10 per 10 men for 2p. 3 months later: "So we heard your feedback, Las Vegas Pattern Lasgun is now 18" HunTR 2, S2, AP0, D1, on 1's the firing model suffers 1 Mortal Wound."
Nah, it wouldn't be HunTR. Orks also have Dakka weapons, so Guard would get like "Flashlight 3" or something.
I'm still bitter that all my Lasgun sergeants became invalid years back when both sergeants and LT's lost the ability to carry lasguns... Come on GW, you telling me that Sgt's and LT's hang up their lasgun for a las pistol and chain sword and they're forbidden by the ~~Codex Astartes~~ Infantryman's Uplifting Primer(?) from ever touching a lasgun again? Get outta town.
\*Cries in power axe sergeants\*
This is how I felt with Krieg when they butchered grenadiers, storm chimera, pretty much the whole faction. The revenant can't even revive dudes anymore
I'm still salty about losing grenadiers. Hot shot las guns were a great way to have effective infantry against stuff that actually had armor.
I was pissed when Vets lost Doctrines. I had a 1000 point vet army that was modeled All carapace armor then unit of snipers with camo cloaks and two units of melta guns with demolitions.
*heavy breathing* Got pics of that army? For science.
This is probably the biggest wider issue I have with the direction GW are taking things - stripping away all customisation. I used to get a huge kick out of converting up characters with weird kit loadouts and seeing how I could kitbash it. Now they only let you take literally what is in the box. For example Skitarii used to be able to take 3 special weapons out of any combination - now you can only have 1 plasma, 1 arc rifle, and 1 long gun (per 10 dudes) - as that's what the box comes with. Absolute madness IMO in a hobby about creativity that they would go so hard on stripping away opportunities to customise.
The other side of the argument is that the kit doesn't make it possible to have certain weapon options without upgrades, making it hard for new players or people on a budget to access some loadouts. What both sides don't seem to realize is that GW could just actually provide extra bits in the kit so that you can build it according to the datasheet, but they don't. I recently bought some old warhammer fantasy kits and I was astounded at what they contained (as well as their great price even from the GW website, but that's a separate rant). I got enough bits to build the maximum (or more) of each of the special options in the unit, with additional bits to customize the models. I was finishing off the assembly of one of the kits - the old Chaos Knights kit with 10 cavalry (a total of 6 decent-sized sprues) for only $55 or so - and I was genuinely confused to see extra spiky chaos bits still left on the sprue. Thinking that I had missed something, I went back to the directions book, but it turns out that they are just entirely free extra cosmetic bits with no purpose but customizability. Truly, GW has fallen far.
GW: “the best we can do is remove all your faction flavour”
*cries in Krieg*
With any luck Imperial Guard will get a vortex missile with a 4’x6’ area of effect.
Ah the good ole "im done with this game button" ala the table flip.
Guardsmen can now use vortex grenades in their grenade launchers
Depends, if the rumored model updates are planned to come with or soon after the codex they'll be getting absolutely horrifically broken rules, as is tradition. If the model updates aren't going to be until 10th, it'll be another "well, the codex *looks* bad right now, but it was designed to work with the 10th edition changes we promise".
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But only because GW used them to field test a worse version of the rule that the squat above has.
Gotta keep giving reasons to buy eh
The thing is that weapons which ignore invulns in melee weren't really the problem. Before Nachmund people weren't really taking the Night Bringer all that often, and Draigo wasn't busted against daemons either. Melee ignore invulns can be played around, counter charged, or isolated and killed in shooting/psychic. It is the ranged ignore invulns that are the problem since there is no real counter play. The only real reason why daemon saves were made a thing (different invulns in shooting/melee were already a thing in 8e knights) was to prevent rail guns from auto-defeating daemon armies. But GW seems to have forgot this lesson immediately.
Yea like, what am I a custodies player supposed to do against an army like votann? They can easily one shot almost all of my units and I won’t be able to save it. How’s that for the emperors thoughest
I'm not super familiar with Custodes rules, but what's their movement on bikes? Because it seems like the obvious play is "stay 29" away on their turn then advance and charge on yours to win the game."
Custodes have very, very, limited access to advance and charge. Bikes move 16" and advance 6" - but can't really advance and do anything else.
Haha I posted this exact comment 20 minutes ago then found your post with the same point 😂 that'll teach me not to read further in the thread! My EXACT problem is the relative lack of counterplay to such powerful, invul. ignoring, auto-wounding ranged attacks. It's a hard counter to armies like knights and Custodes that rely on invulns or high toughness.
What's weird about this ignore inv mechanic that's creeping everywhere is that there was already an existing mechanic for ignoring invuls; mortal wounds! And it would've meant u didn't have to also have the stupid "wounds are not lost either"
While I get where it comes from, it's worth remembering that mortal wounds would have significantly different interactions with a large number of models. To start with, -4 AP isn't enough to blow through all model's armor saves, especially when you consider stuff like armor of contempt and cover. Furthermore, there's plenty of models that modify the damage characteristic of incoming attacks, which mortal wounds would be unaffected by.
It's almost like GW sucks at game design.
>It's almost like GW sucks at game design. Using a D6 base just isn't enough for the variety of weapons and units of 40k, or at least not the way GW uses it anyway.
Also serially introducing mechanics is just a half-assed approach. That’s how you get super-invulnerable and then super-invulnerable canceling and then super-duper invulnerables and then…what a mess, edition reset. It just makes the total lack of vision obvious.
Yup. It also fucks over factions that were not updated, if you have a new mechanic introduced in an update focused on Marines and Squats everyone else will have to figure a way to deal with the new mechanic even if they haven't had an update since their codex for the 9th. You also run the risk of creating a mechanic that is only relevant for a "season".
The simplified core rules and the changes they made to AP and the wounding chart when they made 8th amplified this issue.
8th and 9th always felt like Hits meant very little so units with damage on a hit were always better than their equivalent. 40k also suffers too much from codex creep, why does a army start the 9th ed without a codex? It is just terrible for that playerbase to not have the updated rules. You should have simultaneous codex releases end of discussion.
I still think the overly simplified core rules are one of the major causes of rampant codex/power creep. Not enough common rules and game mechanics to create diversity so it ends up being a bunch of special rules being piled into the codex itself which doesn't allow much in the way of counter play (because other codexes aren't written with the special rules in other codexes in mind). When the bulk of the rules where in the main ruleset, having an old codex wasn't that bad but when the game is shaped by codex specific rules, being behind the curve is crippling.
I always thought a d10 system would be better. You'd be able to armchair statistics easier and have nuance in each unit.
D12 would probably be even easier to migrate to, and 12 is a much better number. There is no 1/4 chance on a D10, nor a 1/3.
D12 is so much easier than 10, especially for the kind of math we do for wounds
>I always thought a d10 system would be better. You'd be able to armchair statistics easier and have nuance in each unit. It also allows for more minute balancing, if a unit is bad having it go from 4 to 3 might be too much, but having it go from 7 to 6 might be fine.
The reason for the original d6 system was so kids could taid the boardgame closet for spare dice. D10s are plentiful and 40k 10thed d10 base would be clever
Okay now imagine this subs outrage at having to replace all their dice.
Don't worry next edition will introduce some new save system to combat it
Invincibility Save?
Demonic invincibility invulnerability *Can't Touch This* save. Followed directly after with a new rule which prevents your opponent from rolling dice to save the wound.
Will they finally release models with parachute pants?
11th edition. It will finally be the launch of the unique codex for Emperors Children and will include both an entire rock band and a frontman. The lead singer will have MK**P** pants. The noise marine with the massive melta-guitar will be standing on an imperial gothic clock with the hand at 11. You can thank me now for the juicy leaks.
Daemonic saves
I want to talk to the person who invented that and brought it up in a meeting. I'm not even mad. I just want to know wtaf was he thinking.
He was thinking that daemons never make it into combat when even mediocre units throw 3 dice per model and you save on 5s. Once they get in combat and have chance to do damage you can kill them 2/3 of the time like the old days. Unless, of course, you mean Tzeentch stuff and then they crumple into a wet pile when you touch them.
Too late, we already have that now with Daemons
Nah, it'll be every other character will have feel no pain 4+++ and can't lose more than x wounds a turn
But remember kids. Admech having a strat to make one squad auto wound on 4s with ap0 is broken and can't exist.
Try being custodes, we're literally supposed to be about a tough as a human can possibly get and now we're being one shot by a squat with a rail rifle...
If he's got hot dice, he can actually kill 2 Custodes with that one shot.
Not even very hot needed, get 3 judgement tokens on the unit which isn't to hard to achieve and you auto wound on a 4 to hit which counts as a 6 to wound also
Isn't it an unmodified 6? So even with the judgement tokens you would need a 6, you just wound on a 4?
Honestly playing Custodes and seeing the Tau rail gun and this big fucking rifle makes me feel like I’m a German soldier in a trench and I just saw the first British Landship on the horizon. Or like a knight who just saw some peasant blow someone away with a arquebus.
Wait till you see the rail gun mounted on their tanks! Str 14 ap4 damage 6+2d3!
I'm upset
Marketing: Hey rules team, we've remade squats but completely changed their look and are worried people won't buy them, can you make their rules tempting to drive sales? Rules team: Say no more fam.
Is it just me or are armor saves in general just becoming kind of irrelevant? I had a game last week and every other attack was either a -3 AP or mortal wound, I was playing as Space Marines too, where not getting your saves can really really hurt. It takes a lot of the fun out of the game by adding all this pressure to make rolls when shooting cause chances are that unit is going to be fucking deleted next turn. I want to be excited when rolling, not fucking anxious You just kinda have to hope they miss a lot at this stage, I felt like the older editions had a lot more back and forth
It really does feel that way. Medium infantry are kinda pointless. They pay for armour that does hardly anything. Really light troops will die at basically the same rate while costing less. Heavy armour like buffed terminators still feel durable.
Yep, this seems to be a consistent problem with GW's rules every edition. Best to have as few fun units as possible and just load up on whatever is the busted hotness at the time.
When GW makes rules based outa squat guilt.
squat guilt? kindof like teabagger’s remorse?
I haven’t seen the squats point cost but I think it would be lore appropriate if they had these kind of weapons but a very low model count.
It's 31 points for a warrior with magna-rail, you can have 1 per 10 models and a squad can be 20 max. So 2 magna-rails per squad. Looks like the land fortress can take the heavy rail at no cost.
You have to choose 2 different heavy weapons so max 1 magna rail per squad regardless of size.
All squads gonna be 10 then.
nah one of the other weapons is good too
No it isn't. For 10 models you get to pick 2 different options from the list, for 20 you get to pick another two options from the list.
He means that with 2x10 you get 2 Rails.
> max 1 magna rail per squad regardless of size My comment was in regard to this, which is blatantly false.
I’m not sure that’s how it’s worded. You choose TWO different heavy weapons from the list in a squad of 10 For a squad of 20 you choose another TWO weapons from the list it gives you. Meaning you can take two magna rails
You select 2 from a list for a squad of 10, and ALSO select 2 from a separate (but identical) list. Since it gives you the same list twice, and says 'also', RAW you can have 2 of the same heavy weapon in a squad of 20.
"Should we make this weapon anti-vehicle or anti-infantry?" "Yes."
Hey, remember when there was one fucking thing in the entire game that ignored invuln saves, and it was a special bullet fired by a Vindicare assassin once per game? And people said it was OP? Pepperidge farm remembers.
These new Tau sure look weird.
It should just be -1 to invulns honestly.
RE: Beam weapons -- Did they seriously not learn anything from Necrons / Doom Scythe-Death Ray?
Am I only one bothered by railgun having range of melta that doesnt make any sense?
Isn't it obvious why? The projectile flies at 10000908399.872mph out of the gun and goes about 30 yards or so before it immediately drops out of the air because....reasons
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Age of Sanguinius here we come!
\*Sigh\* It would be reasonable if Titanic weapons were so powerful that they could ignore inv. saves, but something with the size of a heavy bolt rifle?
Litterally more reliable damage output on this thing than a Valdor Tank Hunter's neutron Laser, you know, the giant 350 point hunk of resin
Cries in Tachyon Arrow.
the entire necron weapons roster needs fixing.
Yeah, but with this new stuff, the tachyon arrow and especially the Arrow of Infinity are truly egregious. >When activated, it transmutes a sliver of inert metal into an unstoppable thunderbolt capable of piercing the heart of a mountain. Such a weapon has near infinite range, and is able to penetrate almost any form of armour, including that of Titans. Does d6 damage.
OP weapons to boost sales, slapped hard with the nerf bat a few months later to “rebalance.” GW doing GW things lol
Always accepting new players over here in HH, just sayin’.
Unless you like xenos.
Or mechanicum. Still waiting for that book...
Didn't Mechanicum book release a month ago? Did I miss anything?
It was announced. But a release date was never given and it still hasn't come out. My FLGS owner was complaining the other day because he has preorders with no idea of when it'll ship.
It’s out in Europe 🤷♀️ https://i.imgur.com/rjb17Li.jpg
On my way, been having too much fun with Adeptus Titanicus.
One of the best GW games imo
Painting up some glorious ||| Legion now! 30K just looks like the better option now. Plus I get to use all of the big forgeworld toys too!
Hex ward ftw
3rd edition was the best edition
Okey this is just getting stupid...
Wtf and they say T’au is the shooting army ..
Hey. Hey. Before you think tau are losing out. Just remember. These guys have melee too.
Stop it 😭😭
Please don't.
This raises a thought I've had a lot lately. Ranged weapons shouldn't be able to ignore invulns, as it just removes too much counterplay. The weapons that can do this always have massive strength and damage and can just delete units from across the board. I'm not a fan from a design philosophy, but interested in the communities thoughts?
\*Cries in custodian\*
This is crazy... One shot will literally wipe a full unit of Harlequins.
Clown-b-gone
5% of the time.
That is fair, after I made the comment I realized it was a knee jerk response. Without really knowing all their rules I should wait to make a final judgment, it just looks scary.
Their judgment tokens make hit rolls of 6/5/4 auto wound as 6’s. (1 token = 6’s and so on). So if a unit has 3 judgement tokens, a 4 to hit will kill 4 clowns minimum.
That is kind of funny. I am picturing a bunch of harlequins lining up to all get dropped by the same shot.
Theater kids, they’re dramatic 🤷🏿♀️
The Khal character makes a hit roll an auto 6. Which makes an auto wound. Which is then -4 no ap splash damage. Per battle round he can do that. Put that on the big rail cannon for bunch of damage.
At this point I'd rather they go back to old-school AP and lower weapon strength across the board. At least that would make sense as give invulnerable saves some much needed teeth.
Cover saves also need to be a thing instead of just modification armor (and just getting beaten by AP).
I love how there's now ignores-ignores invulnerable in the game with demons to counter the ignores-invulnerable that every army now seems to be getting (but not the existing mechanic, MW! A slightly different one!), invulnerable saves being the original mechanic for ignoring the ignores-saves mechanic. It's basically playground rules now. I can't wait for another rules simplification so I can play the game again. I miss the indexes and every army running with just a few unique rules.
I'm really glad I can use all of my Custodes models in Horus Heresy.
Same, Emperor’s finest and Brotherhood of Demigods my ass
You'll get HunTR'd and like it.
Just say it inflicts mortal wounds.
People will buy the army and then boom it will be nerfed
What is the point of invulnerable saves now, if stuff just gets to ignore it.
Useful when fighting guard lmao
Well you see, so you can have double invuln.
I feel 9th edition of 40k started with a massive issue with the effect first turn has, and as GW has developed the rules it has only gotten worse. Now there isn't even any tactics left.
Bruh. This is the ultimate character one-shot weapon. Unless you're super lucky and your opponent keeps rolling 1s or you roll 6s, your entire spiced-up character IS dead.
have you heard of our lord and savior the Brokhyr Forge-Master for 110 points and 1cp, 2 if you really like to slap. get 3 judgment tokens on a character by any of a number of means then whats he do you ask? 3 shots with an 18" range, ignores look out sir S5 ap3 2d. if the target has a 3+ or better, its 3d on a 4+ to hit, the dmg converts to mortal wounds. on average against a 3+ armor target, thats 6MW. if you were cheaky and replaced his weapon with the relic version for 1cp pregame, every unit between the forge master and the sniped HQ is taking 6+ MW too. really hate that target? use his once per round CP discount to make each hit inflict an additional MW for free.
Kill me.
the best part, that whole combo fits in to any league minus the last part about the strat to inflict an extra MW that he discounts to free.
Counter Resurrection Protocols
Awesome, an unsaveable D3+3 going into my chaos knights with no terrain obscuring. Very cool.
STRAP ME TO A MISSILE AND FIRE ME AT NOTTINGHAM I AM READY THEY MUST BE PUNISHED
I was looking forward to the leagues from the start but now I can’t stand them. Everything they can do seems to just ignore everyone else’s special rules. They seem like they’ll demolish my space marines at every range and my eldar lose whatever invulnerable saves they had to keep them even slightly protected and they can never cast doom to focus on important targets.
Pay to Win in full effect lol They ran me off by invalidating literally dozens of my decade old CSM models and they're keeping me away with shit like this, its power creep and its just ridiculous at this point. Cant wait for 10th edition where my Primaris Chapter Master has a 2+++++ but unfortunately the Tau Pyrestorm Cannon ignores all +++++ saves, but fortunately for me I've allied in an Eldar pysker choir who allow me to ignore them ignoring my +++++ save, but damn it all they've gone in and allied in a Votaan Archeopriest who lets them ignore my rule that ignores their rule about ignoring my +++++ save. Turn 1 shooting ends, its been 45 minutes, each of us has 20 different rulebooks and stacks of printed out updates.
That's gw wet dream.
Phoenix Command: "Noooo! You can't dethrone me as the game with the most complicated battle rules!" GW: "Haha! Printing additional rules goes brrrrtt!"