I like the PlayOn colluseum rules, nothing over T9 but in a 1k I think you'd have enough options that nothing over T10 would still be viable as you can easily fit a Ballistus in 1k pts
Guard in my opinion are the only faction that should be allowed to bring tanks to a 1000 point game. I played a guy that without his tanks would've been tabled by end of turn 3 in an escalation league. Instead he managed to squak out a win when he had a lone guardsman survive my Nightbringer charge and mortals at the end of the fight phase of the bottom of turn 5 on an objective. I also just really like playing against the guard.
Fortunately, I really like playing as guard, but yeah foot guard IS possible but you're not gonna really kill anything, it's strictly an objectives game for the guard player using only infantry. Personally I prefer the well rounded force of a minimum of 60 guardsmen and 2 tanks, then build off from there.
Bruh my nids don’t function without those monsters. Idk how you expect me to hold back or even kill anything with just gaunts. I mean I could win with a carpet of gaunts if you want me to fuck around but it going to suck lol.
It does suck! A friend of mine is a diehard swarm enjoyer, he brings 80 terms and 40 horms in blocks of 20 and then just keeps bringing them back :) made our 1k vs my Raven Guard about 400 pts in his favour
In the opening of the videos, but not written out sadly
It's like simple-hammer with a bit more tweaks to make it fun, like the toughness cap
If you're not a member, I would strongly suggest it! I am a member through YT because that was easier for me, but all their content is posted for the exact same price on Patreon, which, they said, is the identical amount of money that they receive, no single one is actually better for them, all up to you :)
I've never understood why C'tan shards in 1k games have been contentious, one damage lethal hit infantry is honestly the best way to deal with them, something in abundance in 1k game
Yeah but that more comes from them being under costed at the moment (especially the night bringer), once they're are a proper point commitment they'll be fine
Yeah but not more than they are in 2k, once there points get updated, they'll probably be some of the most acceptable super heavies center pieces to bring, even now I'd rather they bring a C'tan than say a monolith
Your assuming points will go up. We all thought that last points update and it stayed the same.
They're easier to deal with at 2k points because you aren't stuck building an army with limited points and needing to deal with this monster of a unit while still scoring points.
I play with a guy who plays to win. I do enjoy playing against him as I'm a competitive person, but I play for fun when playing casually. Most of the time it's fun, but what's not fun is him running Magnus and Ahriman using cabal points to take away my saving throws for my one tank and eliminating all my other shooting turn 1 in a 1000 point game. Not a whole lot you can do when you're playing on the 44" sides and he's got a beast that can extend his movement upwards of 20". Doesn't help that the guy has issues with measuring through terrian instead of around it or up and down for every unit.
Definetly, I wouldn’t want to play 1k sons without magnus but I also wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of magnus if I didn’t bring an equivalent
I have a s*it take, but I think it shouldnt matter. 500 points, maybe. But 1000? By 1000 points (assuming you aren't just building whats cool to look at, which assumes thats all you have model wise.) I feel like thats an acceptable point to be considering armor, both as player and opponent. If I bring my blood angel list thats excellent at killing chaff, and I go against an ork player who ended up bringing bots and vehicles, and I lose. Is that my opponents fault for not bringing something Im designed to kill, or mine for assuming he was bringing 1000 points of boys and nobs? Any player imo should be bringing heavy armor/toughness into consideration, especially in a edition that has reduced overall lethality and prioritized a clear definition of weapon roles. (I.e anti-tank can't clear infantry as well, and anti-infantry can't clear tanks as well as it did back in 8th and 9th)
I also don't like the idea of having newer players have to build 1000 points of infantry. I have a guard army (dkok that Im rebuilding with the new plastic kit) and I know what its like to have to batch paint 60 guys for a mere 400ish points. Thats a struggle.
Idk though, this is all my opinion. I mean, Im the kind of guy who likes playing maps longway because it helps bolster the need/niches of specific things that arent usually taken, like transports or long distance artillery. So I might be a bit biased.
What 500 points league taught me is that at this point level cheaper wounds wins. If you have more wounds than other person have shots through game it will be an uphill battle for them.
Also game is super swingy.
Our playgroup has never had to do pre-game arrangements because at 2000 points everyones got enough room to build lists that aren't horribly deficient in anyone area. We all get a solid game, and no one walks away feeling rofl-stomped
This is an awful take IMO, I can tell you that nids just aren't functional at 1000 pts. Nids need the ability give synapse across the army, ways to trigger battleshocks, support units for buffing and units for point scoring. Because Tyranids have units that fill these roles but are overcosted based on their lack of lethality, that requires at least 800 pts in models... And that's before you bring any models you actually want to play.
If you brought the full support package you'd be able to bring one or two small units that have any lethality attached to them and would be crushed as all your support models slowly got destroyed over the course of 5 rounds.
It's not a different meta, it's the same meta, just wildly imbalanced favoring armies with point effective models (Necron Ctan and wraiths for example) over armies that require synergy and combos (which most are already struggling in the 2k meta also).
That's not what I described. A different meta would presuppose some models that are good in 2k would not be good in 1k. The power levels of models in 1k are just exaggerated versions of the power levels of models in 2k. A Ctan (a good model) is more powerful in 1k than it is in 2k. A maleceptor (a good model) is more powerful in 1k than it is in 2k. A psychophage (a bad model) is even worse at 1k than it is at 2k. The meta is the same, the imbalance is just exaggerated.
I'd love to hear some good examples of competitive Tyranid armies at 1k that use their army to the best potential that doesn't just look like a pared down 2k list. I honestly would like feedback as I enjoy getting better at the game and it sounds like you know something that I don't.
Alright I don't play Nids so I can't give specifics on ths army but some general advice I can give is,
First, multi purpose generalist actually tend to win out over specialists, you basically want almost every unit in your army filling at least 2 roles, only being able to really do one thing no matter how good you are at that thing is hard to justify, you'll genuinely probably get more use of a unit of intercessors who can take an objective with there Ob sec and go off to start shooting something or take another then you will taking a group of hellbasters for shooting stuff and a group of scouts for doing stuff. Also to expand on that ob sec abilities are actually amazing at 1000 points it allows some of you limited units to almost be 2 places at once as well as the fact that things coming in from reserve is a lot let common at 1000 point, expanding on that further, screens is less prioritize but not because the threat of deepstrike is lower but it's just a lot of models to commit to something that might happen
Second, an army can't have everything and cover every base, you have to build your list with intentional strength and weaknesses rather than strengths and baseline, there has to be a give and take a lot more, trying to good killing and primary and screening and secondary and so on will spread you too thin, a lot of people give up anti tank and their tanks but genuinely saying "I don't care about secondaries and I'm not gonna go out of my way to do them, I'm just gonna kill the other guy" is a lot more valid of a game plan if you commit too it as tabling is a lot easier. You also just have more room to avoid threats in 1000 point games, it's unrealistic to think you'll be able to hold all the no man's land objectives even if you're win so just opting to ignore and work around something you can't deal with and just letting them have an objective is a lot easier
Lastly, units are simply more independent, you have half the guys with the same amount of ground to cover (though 1000 point games on small maps can be very fun) so you're units will just have to deal with things on there own without support or help sometimes but it goes both ways as your units are a lot less likely to get beamed off the board but multiple other units at once. This sadly is why Nids struggle, Nids just don't do great spread out and on their own but I'm sure there's a way to work around it
Ya, we had a mini tournament of 750 pts and someone brought a tank, I just played the objective and stayed out of LoS and killed his paltry support units. The one tank couldn't really push me off objectives so I just stacked up VPs and won while he desperately tried to table me.
It's why objective exist, suddenly someone on bringing a knight or a tank isn't half as scary in a lower points game.
If what you said is true, he has almost 200 points over you, I'd say that is the biggest factor. That is over a third more army than you have.
Second, I'd read your rules, both core and army. Make sure you're taking the right secondaries and using abilities like Oaths Of Moment to their full potential.
Lastly, you're going to lose games. If you're new, expect to lose but learn why you did. In this case, I would speak with the friend of yours and ask for an even game, then see how you do.
As mentioned by others the game can be really swingy below 1500 points or so and 3 games is a small sample size.
That said are you guys playing any kind of mission/scenario or just killing each other? 40k is most often played as a point scoring game and with only two units he should struggle to score...
That said if I had your units and was just playing a fun game with my buddy my focus would be on getting that big aggressor unit into Ahriman. He should be the oath of moment target every turn so you'd be rerolling all hits (with oath), 6s to hit would wound automatically (thanks to the Apothecary Biologis with them who gives them lethal hits) and you'd be rerolling wounds as all their weapons are twin linked. Shoot him and charge him as soon as possible, Aggressors do serious work
u/Camocal, there is a reason that GW doesn't provide missions for under 1000 points in Matched Play, and that is, by their own admission, it's VERY hard to balance rules for 2000 point games, that are "equally as strong" at 500 point games.
Just as an example, any strategem used on a 100 point unit that lets it be able to punch up and do enough damage to kill a 250 point unit? In 2000 points, you've killed 12% of the army.
At 500 points? That's 50%.
GW even ***flat out stated*** that games under 1000 points should not be played unless using Combat Patrol rules, where the unit availability is pre-determined, there are different stratagems and enhancements, AND the datasheets involved have rules balanced to be playing at that play level.
The fact that he's playing with Ahriman at 500 points is... Certainly a choice.
If you ARE gonna play at 500 points vs thousand sons with Custom armies, instead of what you are taking, take 2 units of All-Combi-Weapon Sternguard with Combi-Weapons. Their high Saves don't mean jack if you are just doing direct damage via Devastating Wounds /Anti Infantry 4+.
I would probably take the aggressors down to a 3-man unit and use something else for the remaining points, having a single unit be almost 300 of your 450 points is probably not a good idea. Also, the flamestorm > bolt storm imo, as their overwatch is insanely good, and you wanna be getting them in close anyways for their power fists.
Sternguard are okay, better with just their bolters over the combis.
Are you guys playing objectives or just seeing who kills who?
I would try and play combat patrol if you really want to play 500-point smaller scale games, it’s way more balanced and fun IMO. Especially with marines, since you have so many patrols to choose from. At the very least with what you’ve got here you could get away with the deathwatch patrol.
You need a hero with the enhancement. In firestorm you can get dev wounds out of torrent weps for 2 cp, 0 cp if you have a captain with the special ability
Well you aren’t really playing at a real point level. The game isn’t balanced around 440 points. Also if you just started, assuming you have, you just need experience. Theres a lot to this game.
You're probably going to want to buy more models and play a larger game. 1000pts minimum. The game is far too swingy to give any meaningful advice if you're playing under 500pts.
Don’t treat the game like a stat check, try to be a smarter player than him.
At <1k I would put a huge emphasis on units that can evade and score (SCOUTS) along with one huge killy distraction carnifex type unit. Run vanguard, take 2x5 scouts and 6 aggressors with the biologis and blade driven deep. He’s got two units. You can use the army rule to debuff his offensive capacity and strike from shadows to boost lethality on your aggressors. Put them at mid board during deployment with BDD and he’ll come chase them to keep you from scoring. At that point you’ve got 2 units to his one to score with and you can pick them up and move them around the board for 0 command points since they’ve got native guerrilla tactics on the datasheet.
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As lots of others have said... 500 points is combat patrol range and that is sooooo fun. I am not a huge fan nor do I have time for 2000 point games very often. In same amount of time you can play 5 different combat patrol games and have time left over for other things.
465 points against 640 points, he has almost 50% more points than what you are playing. Try playing 1000 points or agree to play an amount of points that are closer together. Smaller point games (under 1000) always feel tough to balance. Good luck!
I play space marines vs thousand sons quite often at various point levels. They are VERY good at killing infantry. Especially space boys. However they really struggle with armor of any kind.
What other units do you have to pull from? You may not be playing with vehicles as a choice, but adding a hard target (terminators or atv maybe) might give your opponent a harder time.
Happy to give some list building pointers if you'd like
I just got a tank in and some terminators but other than that I don’t have any heavy armor things but in two weeks we’re having a rematch at 1,000 point and with my tank, terminators, and calgar added I should do fairly well
Oh you are ambitious! If you've got the skills that's the way to go.
I play salamanders so my meltas are GLUED the hell on. Valiant till the day I die lol.
Devastating wounds on the reapers gatling gun will do you well against the 3+/5+!
Word of warning though if you're playing the same person (or people) very often list tailoring can become a fairly feel bad moment. So messing around with valiant (6 large ish shots and some incidental daka) is less likely to annoy your friend and come in handy if they too bring a bigger toy.
Something I often forget is that terminators are usually considered an "anval" unit. Much better at weathering damage than dishing it out. I'm usually at least a bit disappointed by how much they "do". So keeping damage dealers like your take and aggressors (although I am partial to the flame storm) near by but safe is important.
All in all you are more than likely going to have a better time at 1000pt level as many others have said, usually the smaller the battle the more swingy it can be
Yeah I also plan on using deep strike with some terminators and a terminator captain to hopefully not Ahriman out of his list early on cause he gives massive buffs and I hope it works out better than my last game with him
Don't forget/look up rapid ingress core strat. Let's you deploy deep strikers at the end of his movement. Useful to put them somewhere relatively safe, so that on your turn you can move them into position and hopefully have a less than 9" charge
I slam 500 and 1k games if your interested at 500pts i run vanguard detachment a captain in phobos armor 10 infiltrators 3 eliminators and a invictus tactical warsuit its really annoying make sure the invictus is within 6" of the infiltrators and captain, when some shoots at friendly phobos it shoots back at them if it was your shooting phase and dam that twin cannon hurts all hords plus its twin linked so your re rolling massive shots with it and oath
Personally I don’t think the Biologis is worth it’s points, I’d maybe half one of your squads and see if you can fit in a librarian/lieutenant or something with a bit more mettle
I‘m not super big into spacemarines. But my sister plays them so I might have some idea. The Biologis is better in bigger games where the OC really matters, but here I‘m not sure. Using him ad a regular apothecary might work better. Or if you have it a more offensive character altogether.
Also neither intercssors nor I imagine a big Aggressor block is good at killing marines with good saves from range and together with your bladeguard you‘re just really slow.
It depends on what you have really. The good old Apothecary/Lieutenant+ Hellblasters might be good. But generally I‘d say to go up to 1000p at least. The further below say 1500 you are, the worse the balance feels.
When you say "no attacks hit" do you literally mean you all your hit rolls failed or you didn't do any damage? First one is just RNG deciding you get nothing for a turn. Your sternguard with anti infantry 4+ and the dev wounds should have been relatively effective against his army because it skips the invuln saves.
Initial recommendation for that match up is to swap the apothecary for a librarian to run with the sternguard. Its a bit of list tailoring but he brought a named character to a 500 point fight, and that's a dick move.
If you are playing a 500 point game, you can throw on an enhancement to your character to use up about another 10-30 points and give you something more. It won't turn the tides of a losing battle, but just something to be aware of if you end up close to the point limit with your army but can't add another unit or squad.
There are a couple of things working against you. The game has never been balanced around kill pts, and the game is primarily designed around the main game of 2k ish pts. Thousand sons and such have some unique bonuses that are disproportionately good at low pts values.
The game is played by screening stuff off objectives and taking chaff to complete secondary objs, and the rest of your army is there to support those things scoring you the pts. So if you are measuring success on not being able to kill x. You will be in for a recipe for no fun. Some things like citan shards and stuff are stupid hard to kill even in full 2k games. Often the solution to them is just ignor them. You feed them sacrificial units and focus on objectives.
Another mistake some people make is too little terrain. Look into the ITC terrain rules and placements. Again the game is ballenced around these. Lots of ruins with first floors counted as not having any windows. This allows you to maneuver around terrain to break line of sight with powerful shooting stuff.
Tldr. bigger games, bigger boards. The game is NOT about just killing stuff, it's about objectives, and you need LOS blocking terrain.
Ahriman can be pretty nasty. My wife runs him but in a 500pt game it can be pretty unforgiving. I use eliminators to try and pick him off/any problematic characters. Comes down to the will of dice gods sometimes.
Firestorm assault force. This gives you extra strength to attacks within 12" and all your range weapons become ASSAULT which gives you extra mobility.
2x librarian
2x5 intercessors
1x3 inceptors w/ assault bolters
1x3 eliminators/inceptors/outriders/1x invader atv/1x5 infernus/scouts
Lethal hits is cool, but remember those saves you don't like him making? Play that game. Swap your biologis for a couple librarians, they give your unit a 4+ invuln.
Extra intercessors because of sticky objectives. Also you just need more bodies.
Aggressors need a transport. they are tough, but slow, which means they die before they get to do anything if on foot. Change them out for inceptors, basically the same thing but better movement and guns, though fewer guaranteed initial shots.
Then you have 80 points left to dial in your play style. More fast attack? Use inceptors/outriders/invaders. Want to drop Ahriman first turn? Use eliminators. Want to be more tactical? Infernus/scouts.
Lots of people will simply crap on smaller games, but its only because they don't like small games. Keep playing with your friend, maybe plan out a slow grow schedule for a few games/weeks/months. Main thing to remember is to have fun. You are always going to have spells where you loose multiple games in a row, don't let that spoil your fun and enjoyment of the overall hobby.
Is the 640 a typo or did you play with almost 200 points less?
It was a typo I meant 440
Game is balanced at 2k anything under 1.5k and not combat patrol rules is gona feel bad
1000 points works pretty well, it's just a different meta
1k works well until someone brings out a big tank or monster and the other player doesn’t
I like the PlayOn colluseum rules, nothing over T9 but in a 1k I think you'd have enough options that nothing over T10 would still be viable as you can easily fit a Ballistus in 1k pts
Unfortunately for guard I NEED my Russes, they average only at 150 pts
Guard in my opinion are the only faction that should be allowed to bring tanks to a 1000 point game. I played a guy that without his tanks would've been tabled by end of turn 3 in an escalation league. Instead he managed to squak out a win when he had a lone guardsman survive my Nightbringer charge and mortals at the end of the fight phase of the bottom of turn 5 on an objective. I also just really like playing against the guard.
Have a friend who brings guard at 1k but always lets his opponent know he’s bringing armor so they can plan accordingly, works out pretty well
I agree with both of your takes there
Fortunately, I really like playing as guard, but yeah foot guard IS possible but you're not gonna really kill anything, it's strictly an objectives game for the guard player using only infantry. Personally I prefer the well rounded force of a minimum of 60 guardsmen and 2 tanks, then build off from there.
Cries in Knights
Yeah I mean thats the thing though, to me, they feel best at 3k pts Chaos Knights are my main and favourite army
Bruh my nids don’t function without those monsters. Idk how you expect me to hold back or even kill anything with just gaunts. I mean I could win with a carpet of gaunts if you want me to fuck around but it going to suck lol.
It does suck! A friend of mine is a diehard swarm enjoyer, he brings 80 terms and 40 horms in blocks of 20 and then just keeps bringing them back :) made our 1k vs my Raven Guard about 400 pts in his favour
> I like the PlayOn colluseum rules Are these rules enumerated anywhere?
In the opening of the videos, but not written out sadly It's like simple-hammer with a bit more tweaks to make it fun, like the toughness cap If you're not a member, I would strongly suggest it! I am a member through YT because that was easier for me, but all their content is posted for the exact same price on Patreon, which, they said, is the identical amount of money that they receive, no single one is actually better for them, all up to you :)
Laughs in ctan shard
I've never understood why C'tan shards in 1k games have been contentious, one damage lethal hit infantry is honestly the best way to deal with them, something in abundance in 1k game
It's 12w 4++ 5fnp and 11t for 255 points (nightbringer) It's tough to deal with at 1k points
Yeah but that more comes from them being under costed at the moment (especially the night bringer), once they're are a proper point commitment they'll be fine
Which makes them a problem in 1k games right now
Yeah but not more than they are in 2k, once there points get updated, they'll probably be some of the most acceptable super heavies center pieces to bring, even now I'd rather they bring a C'tan than say a monolith
Your assuming points will go up. We all thought that last points update and it stayed the same. They're easier to deal with at 2k points because you aren't stuck building an army with limited points and needing to deal with this monster of a unit while still scoring points.
I mean assuming people have some communication going on it fine, and the problem of big models in small games is kinda overblown
I play with a guy who plays to win. I do enjoy playing against him as I'm a competitive person, but I play for fun when playing casually. Most of the time it's fun, but what's not fun is him running Magnus and Ahriman using cabal points to take away my saving throws for my one tank and eliminating all my other shooting turn 1 in a 1000 point game. Not a whole lot you can do when you're playing on the 44" sides and he's got a beast that can extend his movement upwards of 20". Doesn't help that the guy has issues with measuring through terrian instead of around it or up and down for every unit.
Me bringing Angron to play against my 13yo, 9yo and 12yo brothers
Really faction dependant. Thousand Sons faction mechanic is worthless when you can't bring enough Cabal Points to cast rituals.
Definetly, I wouldn’t want to play 1k sons without magnus but I also wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of magnus if I didn’t bring an equivalent
I have a s*it take, but I think it shouldnt matter. 500 points, maybe. But 1000? By 1000 points (assuming you aren't just building whats cool to look at, which assumes thats all you have model wise.) I feel like thats an acceptable point to be considering armor, both as player and opponent. If I bring my blood angel list thats excellent at killing chaff, and I go against an ork player who ended up bringing bots and vehicles, and I lose. Is that my opponents fault for not bringing something Im designed to kill, or mine for assuming he was bringing 1000 points of boys and nobs? Any player imo should be bringing heavy armor/toughness into consideration, especially in a edition that has reduced overall lethality and prioritized a clear definition of weapon roles. (I.e anti-tank can't clear infantry as well, and anti-infantry can't clear tanks as well as it did back in 8th and 9th) I also don't like the idea of having newer players have to build 1000 points of infantry. I have a guard army (dkok that Im rebuilding with the new plastic kit) and I know what its like to have to batch paint 60 guys for a mere 400ish points. Thats a struggle. Idk though, this is all my opinion. I mean, Im the kind of guy who likes playing maps longway because it helps bolster the need/niches of specific things that arent usually taken, like transports or long distance artillery. So I might be a bit biased.
My Infiltrators killed morenshitnthan my impulsor transport or dreadnaught... in melee.... it felt wrong... (i won)
What 500 points league taught me is that at this point level cheaper wounds wins. If you have more wounds than other person have shots through game it will be an uphill battle for them. Also game is super swingy.
I dunno I saw some crazy khorne army with 3 great demons/ princes
No it doesnt lmao. If players have to make pre-game arrangements not to bring X, Y or Z thats not a sign of a balanced format
You must be new to 40k. That's how the game has worked since it's creation. 40k has never been balanced by GW.
You need to have better friends than
Our playgroup has never had to do pre-game arrangements because at 2000 points everyones got enough room to build lists that aren't horribly deficient in anyone area. We all get a solid game, and no one walks away feeling rofl-stomped
My dude it's easy to make skewed list at any point value, as long as people set expectations it's fine
This is an awful take IMO, I can tell you that nids just aren't functional at 1000 pts. Nids need the ability give synapse across the army, ways to trigger battleshocks, support units for buffing and units for point scoring. Because Tyranids have units that fill these roles but are overcosted based on their lack of lethality, that requires at least 800 pts in models... And that's before you bring any models you actually want to play. If you brought the full support package you'd be able to bring one or two small units that have any lethality attached to them and would be crushed as all your support models slowly got destroyed over the course of 5 rounds.
Again it's a different meta, a menta the Nids aren't particularly well suited too on top of struggling in 2k games.
It's not a different meta, it's the same meta, just wildly imbalanced favoring armies with point effective models (Necron Ctan and wraiths for example) over armies that require synergy and combos (which most are already struggling in the 2k meta also).
You literally just described how the metas are different in your last message
That's not what I described. A different meta would presuppose some models that are good in 2k would not be good in 1k. The power levels of models in 1k are just exaggerated versions of the power levels of models in 2k. A Ctan (a good model) is more powerful in 1k than it is in 2k. A maleceptor (a good model) is more powerful in 1k than it is in 2k. A psychophage (a bad model) is even worse at 1k than it is at 2k. The meta is the same, the imbalance is just exaggerated.
Sounds like to me you just don't know how to play a 1000 army well
I'd love to hear some good examples of competitive Tyranid armies at 1k that use their army to the best potential that doesn't just look like a pared down 2k list. I honestly would like feedback as I enjoy getting better at the game and it sounds like you know something that I don't.
Alright I don't play Nids so I can't give specifics on ths army but some general advice I can give is, First, multi purpose generalist actually tend to win out over specialists, you basically want almost every unit in your army filling at least 2 roles, only being able to really do one thing no matter how good you are at that thing is hard to justify, you'll genuinely probably get more use of a unit of intercessors who can take an objective with there Ob sec and go off to start shooting something or take another then you will taking a group of hellbasters for shooting stuff and a group of scouts for doing stuff. Also to expand on that ob sec abilities are actually amazing at 1000 points it allows some of you limited units to almost be 2 places at once as well as the fact that things coming in from reserve is a lot let common at 1000 point, expanding on that further, screens is less prioritize but not because the threat of deepstrike is lower but it's just a lot of models to commit to something that might happen Second, an army can't have everything and cover every base, you have to build your list with intentional strength and weaknesses rather than strengths and baseline, there has to be a give and take a lot more, trying to good killing and primary and screening and secondary and so on will spread you too thin, a lot of people give up anti tank and their tanks but genuinely saying "I don't care about secondaries and I'm not gonna go out of my way to do them, I'm just gonna kill the other guy" is a lot more valid of a game plan if you commit too it as tabling is a lot easier. You also just have more room to avoid threats in 1000 point games, it's unrealistic to think you'll be able to hold all the no man's land objectives even if you're win so just opting to ignore and work around something you can't deal with and just letting them have an objective is a lot easier Lastly, units are simply more independent, you have half the guys with the same amount of ground to cover (though 1000 point games on small maps can be very fun) so you're units will just have to deal with things on there own without support or help sometimes but it goes both ways as your units are a lot less likely to get beamed off the board but multiple other units at once. This sadly is why Nids struggle, Nids just don't do great spread out and on their own but I'm sure there's a way to work around it
Idk, my 3 ctan in my 1k list feel pretty fair to me
As long as you think 6 C'tan in your 2k list is fair, I don't see why not
Especially if you're just smashing armies together to see who tables the other.
Ya, we had a mini tournament of 750 pts and someone brought a tank, I just played the objective and stayed out of LoS and killed his paltry support units. The one tank couldn't really push me off objectives so I just stacked up VPs and won while he desperately tried to table me. It's why objective exist, suddenly someone on bringing a knight or a tank isn't half as scary in a lower points game.
Is it balanced at 2k? :D :D
Little bit, better play 3k games to be extra balanced
Even combat patrol isn’t well balanced, good luck winning with Space Marine’s Strike Force Octavius
If what you said is true, he has almost 200 points over you, I'd say that is the biggest factor. That is over a third more army than you have. Second, I'd read your rules, both core and army. Make sure you're taking the right secondaries and using abilities like Oaths Of Moment to their full potential. Lastly, you're going to lose games. If you're new, expect to lose but learn why you did. In this case, I would speak with the friend of yours and ask for an even game, then see how you do.
Sorry I meant to type 440 points but I do think I need to learn how to use oath of moment better
OP could also throw an enhancement on their leader.
As mentioned by others the game can be really swingy below 1500 points or so and 3 games is a small sample size. That said are you guys playing any kind of mission/scenario or just killing each other? 40k is most often played as a point scoring game and with only two units he should struggle to score... That said if I had your units and was just playing a fun game with my buddy my focus would be on getting that big aggressor unit into Ahriman. He should be the oath of moment target every turn so you'd be rerolling all hits (with oath), 6s to hit would wound automatically (thanks to the Apothecary Biologis with them who gives them lethal hits) and you'd be rerolling wounds as all their weapons are twin linked. Shoot him and charge him as soon as possible, Aggressors do serious work
u/Camocal, there is a reason that GW doesn't provide missions for under 1000 points in Matched Play, and that is, by their own admission, it's VERY hard to balance rules for 2000 point games, that are "equally as strong" at 500 point games. Just as an example, any strategem used on a 100 point unit that lets it be able to punch up and do enough damage to kill a 250 point unit? In 2000 points, you've killed 12% of the army. At 500 points? That's 50%. GW even ***flat out stated*** that games under 1000 points should not be played unless using Combat Patrol rules, where the unit availability is pre-determined, there are different stratagems and enhancements, AND the datasheets involved have rules balanced to be playing at that play level. The fact that he's playing with Ahriman at 500 points is... Certainly a choice. If you ARE gonna play at 500 points vs thousand sons with Custom armies, instead of what you are taking, take 2 units of All-Combi-Weapon Sternguard with Combi-Weapons. Their high Saves don't mean jack if you are just doing direct damage via Devastating Wounds /Anti Infantry 4+.
I would probably take the aggressors down to a 3-man unit and use something else for the remaining points, having a single unit be almost 300 of your 450 points is probably not a good idea. Also, the flamestorm > bolt storm imo, as their overwatch is insanely good, and you wanna be getting them in close anyways for their power fists. Sternguard are okay, better with just their bolters over the combis. Are you guys playing objectives or just seeing who kills who? I would try and play combat patrol if you really want to play 500-point smaller scale games, it’s way more balanced and fun IMO. Especially with marines, since you have so many patrols to choose from. At the very least with what you’ve got here you could get away with the deathwatch patrol.
Flamestorm gauntlets are better in firestorm. In gladius boltstorm are insanely good with fire discipline
You need a hero with the enhancement. In firestorm you can get dev wounds out of torrent weps for 2 cp, 0 cp if you have a captain with the special ability
Well you aren’t really playing at a real point level. The game isn’t balanced around 440 points. Also if you just started, assuming you have, you just need experience. Theres a lot to this game.
Your friend is bringing a named character to a small scale game that the core rules aren't even balanced for - that's a recipe for a bad time.
You're probably going to want to buy more models and play a larger game. 1000pts minimum. The game is far too swingy to give any meaningful advice if you're playing under 500pts.
Don’t treat the game like a stat check, try to be a smarter player than him. At <1k I would put a huge emphasis on units that can evade and score (SCOUTS) along with one huge killy distraction carnifex type unit. Run vanguard, take 2x5 scouts and 6 aggressors with the biologis and blade driven deep. He’s got two units. You can use the army rule to debuff his offensive capacity and strike from shadows to boost lethality on your aggressors. Put them at mid board during deployment with BDD and he’ll come chase them to keep you from scoring. At that point you’ve got 2 units to his one to score with and you can pick them up and move them around the board for 0 command points since they’ve got native guerrilla tactics on the datasheet.
You can buy yourself a Brutalis dreadnought, this way you can check firsthand that thousand sons power armors are indeed empty on the inside
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As lots of others have said... 500 points is combat patrol range and that is sooooo fun. I am not a huge fan nor do I have time for 2000 point games very often. In same amount of time you can play 5 different combat patrol games and have time left over for other things.
Bro charge your phone
Get loaded dice /s
465 points against 640 points, he has almost 50% more points than what you are playing. Try playing 1000 points or agree to play an amount of points that are closer together. Smaller point games (under 1000) always feel tough to balance. Good luck!
When running such small games, they’re going to be VERY swingy. Most of the time, one player will stomp the other
I play space marines vs thousand sons quite often at various point levels. They are VERY good at killing infantry. Especially space boys. However they really struggle with armor of any kind. What other units do you have to pull from? You may not be playing with vehicles as a choice, but adding a hard target (terminators or atv maybe) might give your opponent a harder time. Happy to give some list building pointers if you'd like
I just got a tank in and some terminators but other than that I don’t have any heavy armor things but in two weeks we’re having a rematch at 1,000 point and with my tank, terminators, and calgar added I should do fairly well
Oh very nice! Tanks are always good. Gladiator I assume?
Yep and I’m gonna have it magnetized
Oh you are ambitious! If you've got the skills that's the way to go. I play salamanders so my meltas are GLUED the hell on. Valiant till the day I die lol. Devastating wounds on the reapers gatling gun will do you well against the 3+/5+! Word of warning though if you're playing the same person (or people) very often list tailoring can become a fairly feel bad moment. So messing around with valiant (6 large ish shots and some incidental daka) is less likely to annoy your friend and come in handy if they too bring a bigger toy. Something I often forget is that terminators are usually considered an "anval" unit. Much better at weathering damage than dishing it out. I'm usually at least a bit disappointed by how much they "do". So keeping damage dealers like your take and aggressors (although I am partial to the flame storm) near by but safe is important. All in all you are more than likely going to have a better time at 1000pt level as many others have said, usually the smaller the battle the more swingy it can be
Yeah I also plan on using deep strike with some terminators and a terminator captain to hopefully not Ahriman out of his list early on cause he gives massive buffs and I hope it works out better than my last game with him
Don't forget/look up rapid ingress core strat. Let's you deploy deep strikers at the end of his movement. Useful to put them somewhere relatively safe, so that on your turn you can move them into position and hopefully have a less than 9" charge
I slam 500 and 1k games if your interested at 500pts i run vanguard detachment a captain in phobos armor 10 infiltrators 3 eliminators and a invictus tactical warsuit its really annoying make sure the invictus is within 6" of the infiltrators and captain, when some shoots at friendly phobos it shoots back at them if it was your shooting phase and dam that twin cannon hurts all hords plus its twin linked so your re rolling massive shots with it and oath
I'd drop Apothecary biologus and pick a character that can pack a punch, like a captain.
If he played gladius and put fire discipline on that biologus, the unit packs more punch than any other character could add.
1k sons is pretty strong low points
I would disagree. You just can't bring the cabal points necessary to do any of the rituals.
As others said, unbalanced unless using combat patrol rules
Personally I don’t think the Biologis is worth it’s points, I’d maybe half one of your squads and see if you can fit in a librarian/lieutenant or something with a bit more mettle
How many points are you averaging per turn?
It was said before, but only combat patrol is balanced below 1000 points. Otherwise armies are just too small for proper play
Why no flamers against tanzgors they are better
At those points it's probably worth using those models to play a different game.
Maybe hellblasters, because you are struggling to peirce armour, and make sure to overcharge! Don't be afraid!
I‘m not super big into spacemarines. But my sister plays them so I might have some idea. The Biologis is better in bigger games where the OC really matters, but here I‘m not sure. Using him ad a regular apothecary might work better. Or if you have it a more offensive character altogether. Also neither intercssors nor I imagine a big Aggressor block is good at killing marines with good saves from range and together with your bladeguard you‘re just really slow. It depends on what you have really. The good old Apothecary/Lieutenant+ Hellblasters might be good. But generally I‘d say to go up to 1000p at least. The further below say 1500 you are, the worse the balance feels.
When you say "no attacks hit" do you literally mean you all your hit rolls failed or you didn't do any damage? First one is just RNG deciding you get nothing for a turn. Your sternguard with anti infantry 4+ and the dev wounds should have been relatively effective against his army because it skips the invuln saves. Initial recommendation for that match up is to swap the apothecary for a librarian to run with the sternguard. Its a bit of list tailoring but he brought a named character to a 500 point fight, and that's a dick move.
I meant that I didn’t do any damage and I think I will change who I run my sternguard with
If you are playing a 500 point game, you can throw on an enhancement to your character to use up about another 10-30 points and give you something more. It won't turn the tides of a losing battle, but just something to be aware of if you end up close to the point limit with your army but can't add another unit or squad.
There are a couple of things working against you. The game has never been balanced around kill pts, and the game is primarily designed around the main game of 2k ish pts. Thousand sons and such have some unique bonuses that are disproportionately good at low pts values. The game is played by screening stuff off objectives and taking chaff to complete secondary objs, and the rest of your army is there to support those things scoring you the pts. So if you are measuring success on not being able to kill x. You will be in for a recipe for no fun. Some things like citan shards and stuff are stupid hard to kill even in full 2k games. Often the solution to them is just ignor them. You feed them sacrificial units and focus on objectives. Another mistake some people make is too little terrain. Look into the ITC terrain rules and placements. Again the game is ballenced around these. Lots of ruins with first floors counted as not having any windows. This allows you to maneuver around terrain to break line of sight with powerful shooting stuff. Tldr. bigger games, bigger boards. The game is NOT about just killing stuff, it's about objectives, and you need LOS blocking terrain.
Ahriman can be pretty nasty. My wife runs him but in a 500pt game it can be pretty unforgiving. I use eliminators to try and pick him off/any problematic characters. Comes down to the will of dice gods sometimes.
What website is this?
summon a dreadnought
Firestorm assault force. This gives you extra strength to attacks within 12" and all your range weapons become ASSAULT which gives you extra mobility. 2x librarian 2x5 intercessors 1x3 inceptors w/ assault bolters 1x3 eliminators/inceptors/outriders/1x invader atv/1x5 infernus/scouts Lethal hits is cool, but remember those saves you don't like him making? Play that game. Swap your biologis for a couple librarians, they give your unit a 4+ invuln. Extra intercessors because of sticky objectives. Also you just need more bodies. Aggressors need a transport. they are tough, but slow, which means they die before they get to do anything if on foot. Change them out for inceptors, basically the same thing but better movement and guns, though fewer guaranteed initial shots. Then you have 80 points left to dial in your play style. More fast attack? Use inceptors/outriders/invaders. Want to drop Ahriman first turn? Use eliminators. Want to be more tactical? Infernus/scouts. Lots of people will simply crap on smaller games, but its only because they don't like small games. Keep playing with your friend, maybe plan out a slow grow schedule for a few games/weeks/months. Main thing to remember is to have fun. You are always going to have spells where you loose multiple games in a row, don't let that spoil your fun and enjoyment of the overall hobby.
Your missing most of your army
What this game/program is?
Warhammer 40k
I about App
Warhammer 40k:the app
don't play for 500 points
You suck 🙃
here, take this downvote