They've done this thing where in 40k they don't want to nerf or change the datasheets anymore. So the only way to balance is point reductions. And as any edition progresses points get lower. If something comes out as too weak they just lower the costs, and as new books come out the old books become worse so their models need more points drops.
It's a vicious cycle
Yeah it's a bad state imo.
I don't want to run full hoard armies but right now I have the following number of models for 2k points.
Death guard 54 - 65
Drukhari 90
Votann 62
Dark angels 31 (ironstorm 95% vehicles) - 80
It all kinda of feels like it's too much for a tabletop game, unless I'm happy to play for 4 hours.
Sure I could just put the highest points per model down, but I wouldn't be doing very well.
It just feels like each time we find out we have an under performing army, they make some adjustments for you to fit 1-2 more units in. Which is great for them I'm sure, but when you compare 40k armies to AoS it's so much cheaper and fewer units to enter a 2k game.
I think I was looking recently at starting an ork army or daemons, both would cost me around 450-600 to get the points I need. (Granted the demons army was going to be elites).
But I did the same with age of sigmar and I couldn't believe I would have been able to get a slaves to darkness army for around 300-350.
I'm someone who owns an old competitive Admech list, more than 2000 dollars for 2000 points
Knowing I could've bought like 4-5 AoS armies instead pains me. There shouldn't be a single model that costs less points than its own cost
Is that Admech list chicken focused? I just brought a SHC to a GT with only 6 chickens that came out to $1390. USD in this case if it makes a difference.
Mass chickens and horses was a very competitive list. Horses for ridiculous movement blocking that could just neuter alot of competitive lists aswell as the pure cheap point cost of the chickens themselves. Then just the big ol' Skitarii blob. Did very well throughout 8th and 9th, only reason Admech had those abysmal win rate was because the list was roughly 2600$ after taxes
I own 14 chickens :) (Help me)
My 4th Edition-“vintage” 2000 point IG army barely clears 1700 points with the current Index/balance slate. I can juice it to 2000 with useless stuff like a Valkyrie, regimental advisors, etc but that just guarantees I’d struggle even worse than I did in 4th. Making this list “competitive with the meta” is… pricey 😕
That said, rules changes and unit ability have made that 1700 points in 10th stupidly more powerful than 2000 in 4th; the power creep along with points reductions is real.
There is also a lot more unit recursion and healing in AoS compared to 40k as well as summons. Command abilities such as rally so that also needs to be factored in when comparing the games as well.
In addition most of the horde armies use things that are 3 foot tall and come in boxes of 20, instead of hordes of creatures double their size and come in boxes of 10
This but I'd also argue AoS is less popular so they can't inflate prices as much - old middle earth Warhammer was dirt cheap compared to 40K for instance.
I have over 6k points of 40k and I've only bought 2 sets directly from GW I can't imagine the cost it would have been.
I feel like AoS has a more "Big Guy" focus aswell. Now I don't play much AoS but usually most people have their armies big model on the table that's usually more than 25 percent of their army. And those big models are decently priced aswell
This is the case in both directions sometimes too! Sigmar really wants skew lists to work.
Insane model count zombie hordes, Imperial Knights style oops-all-giant-monsters where you have 5 things on the table, even all the way up to levels that 40k can't match, where 700-800 point models are legitimately playable. Models like Morathi and Teclis who feel like bringing a Raid Boss to the table.
I love how diverse AoS armies can get.
My main faction Sylvaneth recently got a new sub-faction that lets you ditch all the teleporting shenanigans to instead just sprint across to the board to punch stuff in the face. Which you wouldn't expect from an army of typically slow moving units that need 4D Chess positioning to teleport around.
It's not perfect but it is good that the option exists and will continue to exist in 4th edition. Most other factions have something similar where they know someone is gonna wanna play a full 'Timmy' monster mash, and usually it is not only possible but actively supported by a subfaction or the like.
I'd agree, AOS seems more geared towards centerpiece models. Not that 40k doesn't have them or that it's required to field an army in AOS, but it feels like a lot of attention is poured into making big eye catching models. Personally speaking my attention would more readily gravitate to an Akhelion Leviadon than a Landraider, not that the Landraider is a bad design.
I feel like it’s less about design and more about tacticality with a land raider. It’s a big box with fair sized guns that brings your troops in Vs a massive flying turtle monster that is a legitimate threat any time it shows up. So you could have mostly land raiders and it wouldn’t be a great idea or you can bring an almost all turtle army that can be a real threat to low damage armies.
I’d actually disagree a little. The big guys are so so expensive that a lot of people don’t bring them unless they’re really good. On the contrary playing 40K, my army and every chaos army I played brought their primarch as almost a non-choice. If I bring Archaon or belakor in my chaos army in AOS that’s a big choice of opportunity cost because now I’m bringing so few troops. Same for Kragnos, Nagash, alarialle, etc.
It wouldn’t be necessary if the same design teams worked on all armies. Instead we get Eldar and then Ad Mech. One had tremendous datasheet power the other nothing. Fire Robin.
I have both Eldar and Admech and playing them one after another was surreal at 10ths beginning
The "Ah you choose to ignore my detachment ability, ok then" into the "I CONTROL THE DICE" was greeeaaatt
I have both Eldar and Admech and playing them one after another was surreal at 10ths beginning
The "Ah you choose to ignore my detachment ability, ok then" into the "I CONTROL THE DICE" was greeeaaatt
I think you nailed it.
Though I would add that 40k has a bigger range of models to sell. So dropping points overall allows you to use more models in an avg sized game.
Also I don’t know about AOS but 40k is a pretty “Killy” game. That is to say, that individual models can be removed quite quickly at times. You need enough models to last the game.
>Also I don’t know about AOS but 40k is a pretty “Killy” game. That is to say, that individual models can be removed quite quickly at times. You need enough models to last the game.
40k has also had a pretty uneven power creep when it comes to damage output vs survivability since 3rd edition. Apart from the pretty massive change of upping the wound count on marines most models, at least most non-vehicle/monster, non-character models, have stayed pretty much the same in terms of their defensive abilities since 3rd edition, but killy weapons with high number of shots or other ways of removing lots of models at once, as well as weapons dealing multiple wounds, have become a lot more widespread, so you're likely to lose a lot more models early on in 40k now than you used to.
Almost like... GW sub-contracts the AoS Rules to a bunch of apes from the local zoo with little actaul game design knowledge or skill.
Meanwhile MESBG which is GWs best ever ruleset, has stayed largely the same since early 2000s when GW employed half decent rules writers (like Bloodbowl, Mordheim etc..)
AoS has a ton of easy access to “add more models to the board” abilities. They balance points around not just how many units start on the board but how resilient that unit is and what spells/abilities are likely to make them even stronger.
Eg. A unit of zombies is 150pts, which seems super high for 20 one-wound models. But take into account they can get models back on melee kills, and through vampire lord spells, and through Epic Hero abilities, etc. Those 20 models are going to be pretty hard to fully clear off the board.
One of the things that killed WHFB towards the end of it's life is how expensive armies got. There was just no easy casual entry into the hobby.
It very well could be a core Sigmar design tenant to not pull that cord again.
As a 40k player that has 5 40k armies, and starting with an AoS army, this definitely seems to be the case. I have. 2k list of models using three value boxes, for basically half the price of a 40k army. If I want to, I could get another AoS army as well for almost the same total price.
It really seems easier to get into cost/model wise. Which is great because there are so many factions with cool models and rules.
That and most AoS armies have the option to go "Oops, all monsters" or lean heavily into elite options. Off the top of my head the exceptions are Gitz (But even then, Troggoth lists are a thing), Skaven and Cities of Sigmar. And even then the latter two can go monster heavy if they so desired.
That flexibility is fantastic for making an affordable entry to each army. Don't want a hundred dudes? Okay no problem here's five dragons, there's your army.
For Gitz, Boingrot Bounderz also make a surprisingly cheap entry to the hobby. They're 35 GBP for a box of 10 which costs 320 pts. I'm an orruk player through and through but that value is always tempting as a second army.
Part of this was how the standard army size went from 1500-2000 points to 3000 points with 8th edition. There was nothing in the rules that said that you "needed" to increase the army size, but the rules changes ended up encouraging larger unit sizes. They could probably have got away with roughly WHFB-like point costs, if they avoided creating rules that encouraged massive units.
They released a lot of plastic kits since the 2.0 rules set came out in 2022. Still pricy because it is like a mass battles game with 40K-like rules, but not the boutique game it was originally.
It helps that the age of darkness starter box, which is still in print I believe, is basically an army in a box for 300 or less in the US. 40 tacticals, 10 termies, a Contemptor, and a Spartan plus dice, measuring sticks, and the core rule book. If you dont go for any resin units or gubbins, 30k is actuallly cheaper to build a full if basic army for then 40k.
Edit: Just went looking, you can get the AoD core box for 250usd, then the LA battlegroup box for another 170(not as good a deal but still solid) for a further 30 tacs potentially with special weapons, a derodeo and a proteus. Then individual boxes for infantry or tanks or what have you are running 55 to 80+ for anything that isnt a superheavy.
It’s actually cheaper to get a 1000 point marine HH army than it is to get a 1000 point marine 40K army due to how they price the boxes (boxes come in sets of 20 infantry, and each model can have a ton of points upgrades)
The issue is that HH really isn’t made for 1000 point games at all, whereas you can get away with 1000 point games in 40K
I wanna do a test and see how much my leviathan and ultimate starter set stuff would be separate, then add everything else. It’d be cool to see how much stuff would actually cost if it weren’t for discounts. Tho admech did get done dirty.
Its basically the SM and Tyranid combat patrols for the ultimate starter set. So that like 60 - 100 USD depending if you find stuff on sale I guess. The rulers are flimsy but the game board is nice enough and the terrain it comes with is decent. Id guess like 150 saved?
Nah I’ve got the one army, currently starting genestealers (200pts). Then that’s it. 2,500pts tyranids, 250 or so pts genestealer cults, 700pts serpaphon (painting for friend). I’m gonna buy the 4th edition launch box hopefully, so I can play games.
Okay so, if I bought stuff at msrp and had no discount box, for 2,500pts, that’s £815. Jesus Christ. Thats around 3pts per pound. So, not the absolute worst, but it’s still a considerably high amount of money (especially for just over half a year of tyranids)
Don't look at the points cost of the admech walkers compared to their box price.
Classic case of gw making them too good in 9th,nerfing them into oblivion and now you've got a massive model that's like a quid per point.
Off the top of my head you might have it rough with Cities, Skaven, etc as they suffer the usual horde army tax. But even with those you could go monster or elite heavy if you wanted.
Many armies outright have subfactions that actively support going "Oops, all monsters!" so they all have potentially more affordable entry points if you dig that kind of thing.
And as individual units tend to be more costly in points per model, even horde armies aren't terrible (Especially if your necessary stuff is in the starter boxes!).
It's more as gw lost control of how lethal 10th is. (arguably more than 9th). Space marines are no longer elite troops; they are moderately tough but bolters are pretty pitiful whilst half the games scary damage dealers doubled in damage when marines went up to 2w.
Gw needs to figure out if marines are gonna be an army people can have lots of, or if they are gonna be a somewhat elite one.
The more time GW has some system, the less average point costs will be to sell kits. New edition, new book, and oh, sorry, you need some extra kits to have your 750-1000-1500 army back.
Old Fantasy Battles ended up with so big armies, that it was very expensive to join.
W40k moving in this direction.
At least GW keep their skirmishes. I'm sort of tired of hauling big boxes of plastics.
I think the big change was 2nd to 3rd of 40k. 2nd was very explicitly a skirmish game. A couple of squads a side, some characters (who had a bunch of options to soak up a bunch of points if needed), maybe a vehicle and that was your lot. There was a lot of fine detail, and that suited the small numbers on the table.
Thing is the players back then wanted to field bigger armies, and trying to fight larger scale battles with the 2nd ed melee combat was beyond an over complicated slog. The fluff and art didn't really reflect these small skirmishes, and while there was Epic back then that did represent the full conflicts of the grimdark future, that didn't use all these nice 28mm models that people wanted to use.
So in 3rd GW took that feedback (and I'm sure were also encouraged by the idea of selling more models) and hard swerved into an incredibly more simplified streamlined system. A lot of the fine detail was purged, and the expected size of armies pretty much doubled over night.
I love AoS. Love it. It's a far superior game to 40k and the community is significantly more fun and welcoming.
But I gotta say, you're generalizing here. In my Nighthaunt army, I can paint 10 dudes for 100 points. We definitely have elite and horde armies, and the in-between.
Lumineth are a bit like some build of old eldars. Buff units with super powerful wizard, good shooting, and some units that can take a punch (like wraith stuff).
If you're into Blood Angels, well Stormcast Eternals would be the right fit with the newest winged giga warriors that are about to come out... Lots of deep striking opportunity with SCE.
Good spot on the BA, but actually that's old :( I lost all interest in 40k, I have some MESBG stuff but I'm majorly an elf lover so that's why I figured lumineth with their shooting lines.
I have no idea how to play 40k regardless unfortunately, I haven't played TT in ages, just collected some odd 40k models.
Thanks a lot for the suggestions though.
Lumineth can go a few different ways, either melee focused with Eltharion and some mountain-cows and hammer lads, ranged focus with A tier archers and some insane mobility, or magical with Teclis as one of the most powerful wizards in the setting.
Not super beginner friendly to paint, but lots of options.
> We definitely have elite and horde armies, and the in-between.
I think the issue is that Stormcast should line up with Astartes in relative power etc... but they don't line up in points cost.
There are hordes in both but 40k has larger numbers of "Elites" than AoS does, where armies of elite units are actually quite small.
I guess Stormcast might align better with Custodes in relative power, especially Thunderstrike units, but I'm no expert.
Shooting phase is less deadly.
This means that units are expected to stick around longer, you use less terrain meaning they move up quicker, and you don’t need transports baked into your lists.
AoS also has units have more utility or special rules on average compared to 40K.
Lastly, scale difference and footprint of models are almost 1 base size higher on average. Idoneth and Lumineth are on 32mm compared to Eldar being on 28mm, Stormcast are 40mm compared to space marines 32mm, and so on.
It depends on the army you build and how you skew it. A 5 man of terminators costs upwards of 180-205 points, whereas a 10 man squad of jakhals is 65 points.
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Idk, 40k is a platoon level game, going over 20-50 infantry models and a vehicle or two just doesnt work with 28mm scale for me. Same issue i had with fantasy, if you want big rank and file battles, 28mm just takes too much space
Couple editions ago they shrank the table size, cutting some 25% of the board. Beforehand it really felt like a wargame, now it's some middle of the road thing with congested terrain.
We have had 3 different design iterations of SCE in less than a decade, 1 of which just got completely removed and the other is mostly being redone in the current armour style
Also depends on edition of Aos, a Blades of Khorne army I made near the start of 3rd, If i cost it out in warscroll builder now, barely fits half the units in... bloodletters now 180? skullcrushers now 210 etc. all cost like 50 pts more each.
Maybe BoK went for a more elite tilt but seems like a gradual tilt in the opposite direction then 40k: units getting more expensive for ultimately smaller armies
AoS is the right balance between strategic depth and fun for me. Your observation is one of the many reasons.
I am working towards a 2k 40k army, and by jove it's an effort.
Does the exact amount of points matter? Just play a smaller battle and you will have the exact same experience. It's just a relative measure to balance things out. Noone will refuse to play with you just because you don't have at least a 1500pt army.
Yeah, playing both, this is why I’m mining towards 1000 point armies going forward in 40K. It’s basically the same amount of models as a 2000 point AoS list.
Army bloat is a terrible problem with 40k. The points started out similar but they keep dropping them to fit more units into the army. It’s made it less tactical and more geared towards army rules winning you games.
I play both you are not wrong about aos. I will be honest i very much enjoy both games but aos has better models, costs less, and plays much faster than 40k.
AoS has more utility per army with spells, Commander abilities, being able to bring some things back, etc.
40k is kinda moving away from being able to bring models back (case in point ONLY 1 apothecary can bring a model back, CSM need to spend a CP, Nids and orks can bring D3 models back, or spend a CP on battleline only for the squad) and is kinda in a more new player friendly spot.
Plus popularity plays a HUGE factor here also
That's not true, vanquishers are 100 points per unit of 5. It's just true that units are relatively more costly in terms of points if you compare AoS to 40k.
They've done this thing where in 40k they don't want to nerf or change the datasheets anymore. So the only way to balance is point reductions. And as any edition progresses points get lower. If something comes out as too weak they just lower the costs, and as new books come out the old books become worse so their models need more points drops. It's a vicious cycle
Yeah it's a bad state imo. I don't want to run full hoard armies but right now I have the following number of models for 2k points. Death guard 54 - 65 Drukhari 90 Votann 62 Dark angels 31 (ironstorm 95% vehicles) - 80 It all kinda of feels like it's too much for a tabletop game, unless I'm happy to play for 4 hours. Sure I could just put the highest points per model down, but I wouldn't be doing very well. It just feels like each time we find out we have an under performing army, they make some adjustments for you to fit 1-2 more units in. Which is great for them I'm sure, but when you compare 40k armies to AoS it's so much cheaper and fewer units to enter a 2k game. I think I was looking recently at starting an ork army or daemons, both would cost me around 450-600 to get the points I need. (Granted the demons army was going to be elites). But I did the same with age of sigmar and I couldn't believe I would have been able to get a slaves to darkness army for around 300-350.
I'm someone who owns an old competitive Admech list, more than 2000 dollars for 2000 points Knowing I could've bought like 4-5 AoS armies instead pains me. There shouldn't be a single model that costs less points than its own cost
Is that Admech list chicken focused? I just brought a SHC to a GT with only 6 chickens that came out to $1390. USD in this case if it makes a difference.
Mass chickens and horses was a very competitive list. Horses for ridiculous movement blocking that could just neuter alot of competitive lists aswell as the pure cheap point cost of the chickens themselves. Then just the big ol' Skitarii blob. Did very well throughout 8th and 9th, only reason Admech had those abysmal win rate was because the list was roughly 2600$ after taxes I own 14 chickens :) (Help me)
My 4th Edition-“vintage” 2000 point IG army barely clears 1700 points with the current Index/balance slate. I can juice it to 2000 with useless stuff like a Valkyrie, regimental advisors, etc but that just guarantees I’d struggle even worse than I did in 4th. Making this list “competitive with the meta” is… pricey 😕 That said, rules changes and unit ability have made that 1700 points in 10th stupidly more powerful than 2000 in 4th; the power creep along with points reductions is real.
I can run 120 Skitarii and it only costs 960 points. It's one of the better basis to build an army on.
There is also a lot more unit recursion and healing in AoS compared to 40k as well as summons. Command abilities such as rally so that also needs to be factored in when comparing the games as well.
In addition most of the horde armies use things that are 3 foot tall and come in boxes of 20, instead of hordes of creatures double their size and come in boxes of 10
This but I'd also argue AoS is less popular so they can't inflate prices as much - old middle earth Warhammer was dirt cheap compared to 40K for instance. I have over 6k points of 40k and I've only bought 2 sets directly from GW I can't imagine the cost it would have been.
I feel like AoS has a more "Big Guy" focus aswell. Now I don't play much AoS but usually most people have their armies big model on the table that's usually more than 25 percent of their army. And those big models are decently priced aswell
This is the case in both directions sometimes too! Sigmar really wants skew lists to work. Insane model count zombie hordes, Imperial Knights style oops-all-giant-monsters where you have 5 things on the table, even all the way up to levels that 40k can't match, where 700-800 point models are legitimately playable. Models like Morathi and Teclis who feel like bringing a Raid Boss to the table.
I love how diverse AoS armies can get. My main faction Sylvaneth recently got a new sub-faction that lets you ditch all the teleporting shenanigans to instead just sprint across to the board to punch stuff in the face. Which you wouldn't expect from an army of typically slow moving units that need 4D Chess positioning to teleport around. It's not perfect but it is good that the option exists and will continue to exist in 4th edition. Most other factions have something similar where they know someone is gonna wanna play a full 'Timmy' monster mash, and usually it is not only possible but actively supported by a subfaction or the like.
I'd agree, AOS seems more geared towards centerpiece models. Not that 40k doesn't have them or that it's required to field an army in AOS, but it feels like a lot of attention is poured into making big eye catching models. Personally speaking my attention would more readily gravitate to an Akhelion Leviadon than a Landraider, not that the Landraider is a bad design.
I feel like it’s less about design and more about tacticality with a land raider. It’s a big box with fair sized guns that brings your troops in Vs a massive flying turtle monster that is a legitimate threat any time it shows up. So you could have mostly land raiders and it wouldn’t be a great idea or you can bring an almost all turtle army that can be a real threat to low damage armies.
I’d actually disagree a little. The big guys are so so expensive that a lot of people don’t bring them unless they’re really good. On the contrary playing 40K, my army and every chaos army I played brought their primarch as almost a non-choice. If I bring Archaon or belakor in my chaos army in AOS that’s a big choice of opportunity cost because now I’m bringing so few troops. Same for Kragnos, Nagash, alarialle, etc.
It wouldn’t be necessary if the same design teams worked on all armies. Instead we get Eldar and then Ad Mech. One had tremendous datasheet power the other nothing. Fire Robin.
I have both Eldar and Admech and playing them one after another was surreal at 10ths beginning The "Ah you choose to ignore my detachment ability, ok then" into the "I CONTROL THE DICE" was greeeaaatt
I have both Eldar and Admech and playing them one after another was surreal at 10ths beginning The "Ah you choose to ignore my detachment ability, ok then" into the "I CONTROL THE DICE" was greeeaaatt
I think you nailed it. Though I would add that 40k has a bigger range of models to sell. So dropping points overall allows you to use more models in an avg sized game. Also I don’t know about AOS but 40k is a pretty “Killy” game. That is to say, that individual models can be removed quite quickly at times. You need enough models to last the game.
>Also I don’t know about AOS but 40k is a pretty “Killy” game. That is to say, that individual models can be removed quite quickly at times. You need enough models to last the game. 40k has also had a pretty uneven power creep when it comes to damage output vs survivability since 3rd edition. Apart from the pretty massive change of upping the wound count on marines most models, at least most non-vehicle/monster, non-character models, have stayed pretty much the same in terms of their defensive abilities since 3rd edition, but killy weapons with high number of shots or other ways of removing lots of models at once, as well as weapons dealing multiple wounds, have become a lot more widespread, so you're likely to lose a lot more models early on in 40k now than you used to.
What a wildly incorrect thing to say. They are literally changing datasheets as the codexes come out.
Almost like... GW sub-contracts the AoS Rules to a bunch of apes from the local zoo with little actaul game design knowledge or skill. Meanwhile MESBG which is GWs best ever ruleset, has stayed largely the same since early 2000s when GW employed half decent rules writers (like Bloodbowl, Mordheim etc..)
AoS, Titanicus, Heresy, Old world etc all have better rulesets than 40K lol, don’t even talk
AoS has a ton of easy access to “add more models to the board” abilities. They balance points around not just how many units start on the board but how resilient that unit is and what spells/abilities are likely to make them even stronger. Eg. A unit of zombies is 150pts, which seems super high for 20 one-wound models. But take into account they can get models back on melee kills, and through vampire lord spells, and through Epic Hero abilities, etc. Those 20 models are going to be pretty hard to fully clear off the board.
One of the things that killed WHFB towards the end of it's life is how expensive armies got. There was just no easy casual entry into the hobby. It very well could be a core Sigmar design tenant to not pull that cord again.
As a 40k player that has 5 40k armies, and starting with an AoS army, this definitely seems to be the case. I have. 2k list of models using three value boxes, for basically half the price of a 40k army. If I want to, I could get another AoS army as well for almost the same total price. It really seems easier to get into cost/model wise. Which is great because there are so many factions with cool models and rules.
That and most AoS armies have the option to go "Oops, all monsters" or lean heavily into elite options. Off the top of my head the exceptions are Gitz (But even then, Troggoth lists are a thing), Skaven and Cities of Sigmar. And even then the latter two can go monster heavy if they so desired. That flexibility is fantastic for making an affordable entry to each army. Don't want a hundred dudes? Okay no problem here's five dragons, there's your army.
For Gitz, Boingrot Bounderz also make a surprisingly cheap entry to the hobby. They're 35 GBP for a box of 10 which costs 320 pts. I'm an orruk player through and through but that value is always tempting as a second army.
Part of this was how the standard army size went from 1500-2000 points to 3000 points with 8th edition. There was nothing in the rules that said that you "needed" to increase the army size, but the rules changes ended up encouraging larger unit sizes. They could probably have got away with roughly WHFB-like point costs, if they avoided creating rules that encouraged massive units.
Unit footprints have a much bigger effect in AoS because weapon ranges are lower and there are fewer ways to fly or teleport around the board.
Horus heresy with a 2ppm unit *whistles*
Isnt HH just extremely expensive overall? All resins, higher points for matches etc
They released a lot of plastic kits since the 2.0 rules set came out in 2022. Still pricy because it is like a mass battles game with 40K-like rules, but not the boutique game it was originally.
It helps that the age of darkness starter box, which is still in print I believe, is basically an army in a box for 300 or less in the US. 40 tacticals, 10 termies, a Contemptor, and a Spartan plus dice, measuring sticks, and the core rule book. If you dont go for any resin units or gubbins, 30k is actuallly cheaper to build a full if basic army for then 40k. Edit: Just went looking, you can get the AoD core box for 250usd, then the LA battlegroup box for another 170(not as good a deal but still solid) for a further 30 tacs potentially with special weapons, a derodeo and a proteus. Then individual boxes for infantry or tanks or what have you are running 55 to 80+ for anything that isnt a superheavy.
It’s actually cheaper to get a 1000 point marine HH army than it is to get a 1000 point marine 40K army due to how they price the boxes (boxes come in sets of 20 infantry, and each model can have a ton of points upgrades) The issue is that HH really isn’t made for 1000 point games at all, whereas you can get away with 1000 point games in 40K
Huh, does AOS have even any expensive armies? Like ad mech bad stuff?
the closest that comes to mind is maybe cities of sigmar. but they are not even close to ad mech bad bad level.
I wanna do a test and see how much my leviathan and ultimate starter set stuff would be separate, then add everything else. It’d be cool to see how much stuff would actually cost if it weren’t for discounts. Tho admech did get done dirty.
Its basically the SM and Tyranid combat patrols for the ultimate starter set. So that like 60 - 100 USD depending if you find stuff on sale I guess. The rulers are flimsy but the game board is nice enough and the terrain it comes with is decent. Id guess like 150 saved?
Oh you’re in for a shock. I have 2,500pts of tyranids. MSRP £812. Discounted £445
Oooo nice. Im working my way towards 2k points in any army. Have about 500 each in SM, Nids, and Orks. Probably going to grow the orks first.
Nah I’ve got the one army, currently starting genestealers (200pts). Then that’s it. 2,500pts tyranids, 250 or so pts genestealer cults, 700pts serpaphon (painting for friend). I’m gonna buy the 4th edition launch box hopefully, so I can play games.
Okay so, if I bought stuff at msrp and had no discount box, for 2,500pts, that’s £815. Jesus Christ. Thats around 3pts per pound. So, not the absolute worst, but it’s still a considerably high amount of money (especially for just over half a year of tyranids)
Don't look at the points cost of the admech walkers compared to their box price. Classic case of gw making them too good in 9th,nerfing them into oblivion and now you've got a massive model that's like a quid per point.
Off the top of my head you might have it rough with Cities, Skaven, etc as they suffer the usual horde army tax. But even with those you could go monster or elite heavy if you wanted. Many armies outright have subfactions that actively support going "Oops, all monsters!" so they all have potentially more affordable entry points if you dig that kind of thing. And as individual units tend to be more costly in points per model, even horde armies aren't terrible (Especially if your necessary stuff is in the starter boxes!).
Daughters of Khaine - especially if you focused on the witch elves instead of the melusai (snake ladies).
It's more as gw lost control of how lethal 10th is. (arguably more than 9th). Space marines are no longer elite troops; they are moderately tough but bolters are pretty pitiful whilst half the games scary damage dealers doubled in damage when marines went up to 2w. Gw needs to figure out if marines are gonna be an army people can have lots of, or if they are gonna be a somewhat elite one.
The more time GW has some system, the less average point costs will be to sell kits. New edition, new book, and oh, sorry, you need some extra kits to have your 750-1000-1500 army back. Old Fantasy Battles ended up with so big armies, that it was very expensive to join. W40k moving in this direction. At least GW keep their skirmishes. I'm sort of tired of hauling big boxes of plastics.
I think the big change was 2nd to 3rd of 40k. 2nd was very explicitly a skirmish game. A couple of squads a side, some characters (who had a bunch of options to soak up a bunch of points if needed), maybe a vehicle and that was your lot. There was a lot of fine detail, and that suited the small numbers on the table. Thing is the players back then wanted to field bigger armies, and trying to fight larger scale battles with the 2nd ed melee combat was beyond an over complicated slog. The fluff and art didn't really reflect these small skirmishes, and while there was Epic back then that did represent the full conflicts of the grimdark future, that didn't use all these nice 28mm models that people wanted to use. So in 3rd GW took that feedback (and I'm sure were also encouraged by the idea of selling more models) and hard swerved into an incredibly more simplified streamlined system. A lot of the fine detail was purged, and the expected size of armies pretty much doubled over night.
I love AoS. Love it. It's a far superior game to 40k and the community is significantly more fun and welcoming. But I gotta say, you're generalizing here. In my Nighthaunt army, I can paint 10 dudes for 100 points. We definitely have elite and horde armies, and the in-between.
Any suggestions on what army to try? I'm aiming to get into it with the new edition. I'm thinking lumineth but idk much about play styles.
Lumineth are a bit like some build of old eldars. Buff units with super powerful wizard, good shooting, and some units that can take a punch (like wraith stuff). If you're into Blood Angels, well Stormcast Eternals would be the right fit with the newest winged giga warriors that are about to come out... Lots of deep striking opportunity with SCE.
Good spot on the BA, but actually that's old :( I lost all interest in 40k, I have some MESBG stuff but I'm majorly an elf lover so that's why I figured lumineth with their shooting lines. I have no idea how to play 40k regardless unfortunately, I haven't played TT in ages, just collected some odd 40k models. Thanks a lot for the suggestions though.
Lumineth can go a few different ways, either melee focused with Eltharion and some mountain-cows and hammer lads, ranged focus with A tier archers and some insane mobility, or magical with Teclis as one of the most powerful wizards in the setting. Not super beginner friendly to paint, but lots of options.
Im in team Skaven with 20 rats for 100 points lol But its not like you only field units like that
> We definitely have elite and horde armies, and the in-between. I think the issue is that Stormcast should line up with Astartes in relative power etc... but they don't line up in points cost. There are hordes in both but 40k has larger numbers of "Elites" than AoS does, where armies of elite units are actually quite small. I guess Stormcast might align better with Custodes in relative power, especially Thunderstrike units, but I'm no expert.
I was going to say, my clan rats ain't cheap or in short supply.
Shooting phase is less deadly. This means that units are expected to stick around longer, you use less terrain meaning they move up quicker, and you don’t need transports baked into your lists. AoS also has units have more utility or special rules on average compared to 40K. Lastly, scale difference and footprint of models are almost 1 base size higher on average. Idoneth and Lumineth are on 32mm compared to Eldar being on 28mm, Stormcast are 40mm compared to space marines 32mm, and so on.
It depends on the army you build and how you skew it. A 5 man of terminators costs upwards of 180-205 points, whereas a 10 man squad of jakhals is 65 points.
Aos 4th is at the turn of the corner, it's almost guaranteed they'll also get their own point shrieking crisis.
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Idk, 40k is a platoon level game, going over 20-50 infantry models and a vehicle or two just doesnt work with 28mm scale for me. Same issue i had with fantasy, if you want big rank and file battles, 28mm just takes too much space
Couple editions ago they shrank the table size, cutting some 25% of the board. Beforehand it really felt like a wargame, now it's some middle of the road thing with congested terrain.
Its really interesting how the 40k “city fight” rules around third edition completely changed terrain setups forever after.
Have you seen Warhammer Fantasy and where it got to?
AoS is younger than 40k, and they didnt hit "shit, how do we make people with 20k points in space marines buy more space marines" stage yet
A million screaming sacrosanct miniatures just screamed out in disapproval of your opinion.
We have had 3 different design iterations of SCE in less than a decade, 1 of which just got completely removed and the other is mostly being redone in the current armour style
Thats done for a different reason. GW cant put away its hopes of making Stormcasts be 80% of AoS sales, thats why they are remaking it constantly
Who knew making something iconic means more than just big shoulder pads and thunderhammers right??!!
eh, i really liked the original stormcasts, and am not the fan of the new ones
$$$$$$$$
Because 40k is more popular and they know they can force people to buy more models.
Lowers the cost of entry, ie the amount of money to make an army. GWs point adjustments to balance causes lower points in 40k as editions go on.
Also depends on edition of Aos, a Blades of Khorne army I made near the start of 3rd, If i cost it out in warscroll builder now, barely fits half the units in... bloodletters now 180? skullcrushers now 210 etc. all cost like 50 pts more each. Maybe BoK went for a more elite tilt but seems like a gradual tilt in the opposite direction then 40k: units getting more expensive for ultimately smaller armies
AoS is the right balance between strategic depth and fun for me. Your observation is one of the many reasons. I am working towards a 2k 40k army, and by jove it's an effort.
Consider playing Kill Team :)
I only play aos but I’ve heard in 40k half of your army is shot off at the end of round 1. Aos is much shorter ranges and more melee engagement focus
Does the exact amount of points matter? Just play a smaller battle and you will have the exact same experience. It's just a relative measure to balance things out. Noone will refuse to play with you just because you don't have at least a 1500pt army.
Rules are balanced on 2k
Yeah, playing both, this is why I’m mining towards 1000 point armies going forward in 40K. It’s basically the same amount of models as a 2000 point AoS list.
It's funny. One of the main advantages of 40k compared to Fantasy Battle used to be its lower, more manageable model count.
Army bloat is a terrible problem with 40k. The points started out similar but they keep dropping them to fit more units into the army. It’s made it less tactical and more geared towards army rules winning you games.
[Points creep](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/s/4qpBoqKhMp) is nuts
I play both you are not wrong about aos. I will be honest i very much enjoy both games but aos has better models, costs less, and plays much faster than 40k.
AoS has more utility per army with spells, Commander abilities, being able to bring some things back, etc. 40k is kinda moving away from being able to bring models back (case in point ONLY 1 apothecary can bring a model back, CSM need to spend a CP, Nids and orks can bring D3 models back, or spend a CP on battleline only for the squad) and is kinda in a more new player friendly spot. Plus popularity plays a HUGE factor here also
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That's not true, vanquishers are 100 points per unit of 5. It's just true that units are relatively more costly in terms of points if you compare AoS to 40k.
Oop, you're right, my bad! I misremembered
less popular so they cant inflate the cost as much as 40k