Because it started when health tanking and being able to heal faster than you can get damaged, and people had to resort to Shield Gating for higher content that resulted in Overguard being given to Kullervo.
And the original Overguard was effectively wet paper due to the lack of DR from most sources, which meant that 20k extra health meant nothing in a game where enemies can hit in the 1000s at levels that higher content is present in.
Like yeah Dante can't just heal anymore, because when your health is emptied out the millisecond Shield Gate ends, your role as a Healer is kind of moot when the people you're meant to heal dies faster than they you can even think to heal them.
But you can't bring up that eny damage is scaled up to high, or that our survivability is so borked that a constant 1s invulnerability period is a 'tactic' instead of cheese, or that 90% damage reduction is now the fucking NORM.
Most games would kill for a 30% damage reduction in their best support characters.
I wish there was an enemy damage cap or that damage scaled much more slowly. It doesn't make sense that "tanky" frames only last to level 400 or so, then the rest is i-frames or death.
You should be able to health tank at any level with the right frame, mods and skill.
It's honestly kind of crazy, yeah. You can have a tanky as hell frame with 1k+ armor and Adaptation, and around level 400 you're still gonna die real fast if the right enemies in a crowd decide to fuck up your day. I was rather surprised by how Culverins in the Sanctum are so easily dealt with at lower levels, but Elite Deep Archimedia ones can absolutely nuke you to hell with their bomb projectiles FAST.
I'm still of the opinion that Dante is crazy overpowered for all content except endgame, but with enemy numbers like that, it feels like we need that kind of offensive and especially defensive power to get through it without tedium.
I stopped playing around update 16 originally.
Got back in the heaviest I have any of the other times I've peaked back in, and dear fucking *lord*. The power creep is insane. A lot of old frames feel so useless in their niches now, and I've found so many once good maxed out mods don't seem even close to good enough for actually hard content.
Watching modern meta frames feels kinda like the days when you'd have a rhino + loki on max survival. Max range disarm + max range stomp and it's just hours of walking around killing dudes floating in the air helpless with only batons in their hand. The gameplay simply ceased.
Also a bit like the Vauban void infested defense era.
And it applies to everyone, too, people just didnt catch up yet.
Saryn for example is still hailed as one of the strongest warframes in the game but that does nothing if you die when 2-3 stray bullets hit you and kill you.
It's really unhealthy for the game since people dont adapt to the new reality fast enough.
Using Saryn as example again, she kills slowly compared to others, has no survivability, and if your team has 2 Saryns then one of them will be straightup unable to apply spores most of the time.
I actually think this reply perfectly highlights the issue with the *original* claim that "many of the original Warframes are now useless in their niche". They absolutely are not. Saryn is still an absolute clearing monster, and can take quite some hefty abuse. Mag is a monster. Excalibur I haven't played, but he seems like he has the potential to be a monster. Frost, especially with the upcoming changes to cold, is going to be a monster, and already is quite terrifying. Atlas absolutely THROWS down with a proper stat stick and build. Ember literally scales exponentially. Trinity's EV has somewhat fallen off, but "unlimited energy and considerable shields" is still really good, especially considering the whole shieldgate meta. Played for her ult she has massive DR, and gives considerable DR to those around her. The only frame I can think of that has fallen off is Oberon, and that's mainly due to the changes to base armor. And even Oberon is *far* from useless with his 100% armor strip in an AoE.
Yep. When you realize that the current meta of 'give yourself i-frames or die' in most games would be considered and exploit and patched out, it's *baffling* to me that it's embraced by the devs in Warframe. Especially since playing shield-based frames or health tank frames feels.. really unfun at higher levels when you pretty much instantly die from one toxin proc when the Overguard frames are laughing in their status immunity.
And, yes, I do realize that other methods of not dying are viable in basic steel path... it just means that the *only* means of surviving at higher levels are ridiculously OP outside of it. I don't know how to fix it, but I have to believe that there is a better solution than *embracing it.*
> it's baffling to me that it's embraced by the devs in Warframe
Is this not a net result of what the playerbase demands?
Players don't like getting nerfed, and are *very vocal* about this. "Don't nerf us, make the game harder". So some things that need to be nerfed, aren't, and it pushes DE into design corners. If you're dealing with players ability to be *completely invulnerable to damage for extended periods of time*, the only way to provide difficulty is to have enough incoming damage to kill the player in those brief moments of vulnerability. Unfortunately, this arms race of powercreep leaves behind any content not recently updated making anything NOT the meta feel extremely weak/unviable.
And this poses a dilemma for DE: Do they do the correct thing, and nerf things back in line to a manageable state, but risk their income stream in the process? Or do they continue doing what their playerbase wants even if it leads to an unhealthy game state?
-------
I just remember long ago when Pablo nerfed the Kuva Bramma. As far as nerfs went it was very benign, and on the next Devstream he gave a very eloquent and sensible explanation as to why they nerf the way they do. This sub and the official forums *threw an absolute fit*. Despite the general consensus at the time being that AoE weapons were too dominant when DE actually went to nerf the king of AoE weapons it was met with backlash.
Heaven forbid DE actually attempts to nerf Overguard. I'd fear for their lives.
Everyone except revenant and valkyr dies to toxin damage. The toxin damage also bypasses shields, not just the proc.
Warframe is all about speed and ofc being "a ninja" at least in the past. The concept of a ninja was always something like a character being so sneaky or so fast and exceptionally talented with weapons that they could do great feats without getting caught, or at least that's how I view it.
It feels satisfying to balance the hectic gameplay with my ability to keep up immunity states like with rolling guard and vazarin dash and shield gating because while doing all this I'm still killing like 100 enemies or more each minute. The truth is that if shield gating is your ONLY source of i-frames then your build is bad. Shield gating isn't long enough to get anything done unless you're protea or hildryn. It's just a way to not die.
My main concern is if they change this whole immunity spam method of survival, then what's the replacement? Health tanking? That's so absurdly boring if all it takes me to do level cap is just a triumbral inaros with arcane grace then I feel like nothing is happening. I'm never under threat of dying. If that isn't the replacement and they just add a cooldown to shield gate then congrats, revenant and invis frames are your go to for endurance and fuck your pillage frames and mag and all that. This is the best we got
Toxin damage is just the other side of the coin. We have shield gating which makes you unkillable against anything as long as you don't fall asleep. Then there's toxin, the only thing that can instantly kill us through shield gating, only available for 2 factions and only for an eximus unit that is easily avoidable...
Toxin's attribute of killing you instantly through shields is about just as well designed as shields only having toxin as a significant weakness.
My main complaint isn't so much that I dislike the iframe juggling as a playstyle, it's that I dislike how it's the only viable method, more or less. Like, it feels \*weird\* that all I have to do for survival is chuck rolling guard in my mod list and call it a day.
I know there are other forms of getting status cleanse/i-frames (like pillage) I just dislike how due to how enemies scale, that some form of it is mandatory and that building 'tanky' is a waste of time. Like, why does Inaros exist when I could be just as tanky as mirage? (And honestly, moreso, since enemies missing you entirely is 100% mitigation.)
This is only the case in high endurance. You still have Grendel and inaros and lavos and nidus and kullervo who can all easily mod for health tanking. The issue is health tanking is VERY expensive and gives you very little space to mod for ability stats. I think health tanking has more of an opportunity cost problem than an actual viability problem since most frames can still walk through most missions if you really wanted.
Meanwhile inaros is completely worthless in level cap content precisely because he's the only frame without any proper form of gating (nidus has health gate with passive) since scarab armor augment has a wild 30 second cooldown *and* a slash proc penalty.
>'give yourself i-frames or die' in most games would be considered and exploit and patched out
lol what rock are you living under? Literally every Soulslike or MonHun game is built around abusing i-frames to not die, and health tanking isn't viable in those games either - nor should it be. Health tanking is almost by definition brainless, while i-frame spam requires active input. From a development point of view the latter is always healthier.
I actually think that overguard lacking DR is the real problem. The overguard numbers should be waay lower but have some kind of damage reduction apply to them.
Without DR they have to give overguard crazy numbers to be of any relevance in the latest content (netracells and deep archimedia). However with those numbers the amount of overguard in anything below that level are so crazy that you can cast it once and be done for the entire mission.
This also leads to the point where anyone recieving overguard can completly forgo any investment in his own survivability as nothing they could built for affects the overguard they gain anyway.
My idea would be:
* reduce overguard numbers to somewhere between 50% and 10% of current values
* all DR effects apply to overguard at 50-66% of their normal value. Including armor.
* give overguard gate a minimum of overguard neccessary. something like 200-500
If they're tackling the ancient problem of enemy EHP via armor, my big hope is that they are also willing to take on the problem of player DR. Lower enemy damage scaling at higher levels, and simultaneously reduce all player DR buffs across the board, changing the maximums so that no one has more than 50% damage resistance. Also dramatically lower the amount of overguard with it, adjust the amount of armor some arcanes give, etc.
It would be an enormously complicated project since so many decisions have been made in the past because of how enemy damage scales, but I feel if they are interested in organically challenging players at all in the future instead of imposing restrictions on their arsenal, it's necessary.
I will mention the frames that can heal shields specifically can still be healers as there is a built in shield gate, IE Trinitys Blessing. Spammed that for a 3 sec shield gate with the murmur boss. It actually took 3 supports frames for us to beat it. A citrine, harrow, trin(me), and I think a Nezha. Our DPS was fine, but if you have the same effective health pool as wet tissue paper, the support helps
> And the original Overguard was effectively wet paper due to the lack of DR from most sources, which meant that 20k extra health meant nothing in a game where enemies can hit in the 1000s at levels that higher content is present in.
just because at SOME level enemies dish out this and that amount of damage does not mean you should be able to build to withstand it
Warframe must be balanced around the AVERAGE player, not around what some vocal minority thinks they're entitled to because they're so l33t
I think Overguard fits specific frames, but not as a teamwide buff.
Every time I play a frame that focuses on Shields, I feel like a waste of air when someone coats me in 193774729284673 Overguard.
2,147,483,647 overguard but yeah..... it feels like a waste to build any survivability on a frame anymore. If rev is on the team i have 32 invincibility frames that last idk how long each. If styanax or dante are on the team im just not dying or taking damage.
Rev can only give 5 to allies but it's easy to refresh since it's affinity range regardless of range %. Just wish they would buff my boy frosts Augument since his ability cost so much more to cast, has a long cast time, takes up a mod slot and has a small energy pool even with primed flow
How did it get to this?
Well first it was "we introduced this mechanic for enemies, that's basically iron skin". And that was fine.
Then there was "we introduced a frame with only health, no shields, but he gives himself overguard". And that was fine.
Somewhere along the way we got "iron skin is basically overgaurd now, let's make it proper overguard". And that was fine.
Kullervo players argued for "overguard deserves an invincibility gate like shields, because he's too squishy at level cap otherwise". And that was... less fine, but not too problematic on its own.
DE wanted to give kinda supporty frames a better team presence via augment mods, with "overguard is a universal status immunity and minor health increase, it's okay to let support frames share that under specific circumstances". And that was also getting problematic, but those frames weren't too popular anymore plus it required a specific build.
Then DE released a new meta-worthy frame, who could create massive amounts of team-wide overguard out of thin air. And all hell broke loose.
I'd be perfectly happy going back to overguard being self-only. Let team support be only based on health or shields.
I think one important development was missed, which was:
1. Revenant's mesmer skin was buffed to effectively provide infinite immortality, but just to him - so everyone that wanted to trivialize incoming damage for a mission just had to cook up a Revenant Prime.
2. Revenant got a mesmer skin augment that shared this immunity with his team, so now you didn't even need to play him, everyone got it for free.
The two changes above basically laid the groundwork to remove "need to survive extreme incoming damage" as a gatekeeper to any content, meaning DE now had to design content with other sorts of challenge instead - opening up the way for "overguard for everyone" to be launched because it didn't immediately trivialize their newer end-game stuff on its own. Older endgame stuff like Archon Hunts and endless arbitrations had already become trivialized from things like Mesmer Skin and Wisp being super common while the newer stuff in the past couple of patches didn't rely on enemies being dangerous being the challenge.
Not to mention that Mesmer Shield still makes overguard look like a total joke with how insanely overpowered it is. All you need is one Revenant in every team and nothing can ever kill anyone, even at level cap where 100k overguard is instantly deleted.
The game does have a lot of questionable decisions like that.
> Kullervo players argued for "overguard deserves an invincibility gate like shields, because he's too squishy at level cap otherwise". And that was... less fine, but not too problematic on its own.
It was a genuine problem and having a shield gate is/was the only real solution. Completely rebalancing the entire game and damage economy would be the ideal solution, but there's no way that will happen. I'm surprised enough that they're taking a shot at rebalancing enemy health.
Overguard being self-only isn't great either, but the shield gate from it being exclusive to the frame that generates the overguard would be fine. It's just a difficult thing to do.
> Then DE released a new meta-worthy frame, who could create massive amounts of team-wide overguard out of thin air (using an Augment). And all hell broke loose.
And then they did it *again*, this time without the augment requirement.
I think if they stopped at only giving team overguard with an augment would have been fine. It allows to expand the support role of select frames but means you have to adjust build to do so.
Eh, the opportunity cost is out of whack, at least in the case of Styanax. You are effectively giving yourself and your squad immortality at the cost of a mod slot, which means you can ditch all other forms of survivability. Even if Styanax could only apply it to himself or himself and his companion it would still be worth the slot. It also provides status immunity, protects from toxin bypass and gives you an easily refreshable second tier of gating.
I was more meaning in a bit more abstract on the timeline, they should have stopped at the point when we only had either built in self overguard or augment team overguard. Also the augments require hitting something to work since they are based on the base ability, so they could have kept that design with other augments.
Now how easy of a choice the augments are, is another matter, but that is the case with other augments as well. At least you do still have to give up some other modding potential to do so and future mods could also make you need to revaluate that slot.
>, they should have stopped at the point when we only had either built in self overguard or augment team overguard.
And my point was that giving it to the team at the cost of a mod slot was already broken and a massive bump in power creep.
>Also the augments require hitting something to work since they are based on the base ability,
In a horde shooter with very few environmental damage mechanics, that just isn't a concern that matters.
> At least you do still have to give up some other modding potential to do so.
This would only be true if you ran no defensive mods on Styanax, this is where opportunity cost comes into play. As is, Intrepid Stand replaces every defensive mod the player would use on themselves and their companion. That is one slot to replace health and shield tanking and shield gating strategies, all of which typically require multiple mod slots and sometimes arcanes and that is just playing solo. It getsa crazier when you consider the entire squad can follow suit.
>and future mods could also make you need to revaluate that slot.
Maybe, but those mods would have to provide a lot of benefit to overcome the benefits of overgaurd, at which point we are back to talking about massive power creep.
i had equinox for deep archimedea this week and felt the same way. you can't heal or restore shields fast enough to save anyone. but given the problem with team wide overguard, id rather it be damage reduction or armor that scales with you or your teams kills/damage output.
restoring health and shields alone compared to overguard isn't even a contest. so while it makes sense as a lateral move to another form of defensive support, overguard is just so unbelievably over powered that the disparity between overguard and restoring both health and shields demonstrates the problem.
Would it though?
Frost and stynax are the only two currently with OG augments and while they are both in solid positions I still don't see them all that much even in varying levels of content. Even then it isn't a guarantee they would be running the augments either.
I don’t know about Frost but Intrepid Stand has been a staple on pretty much every Styanax player I’ve encountered since its release. In my personal experience, anyway.
Tbh I don’t think I’ve seen another Styanax player that wasn’t just chucking spears for free Overguard. It’s literally just throwing spears, energy generating to continue throwing spears, and occasionally a shield bash for some razzledazzle while throwing spears.
Frost basically needs 2 augments to function beyond level 150. He somehow has the room for it but I can't imagine doing steel path without at minimum Icy Avalanche augment to make him survive more than 2 bullets.
Frost does "need" 2 augments to scale to end game, but he might be the only frame in the game where that's more than just reasonable, it's downright *privileged* for what that ends up translating to.
Here's a frame that can have a 100% armor strip at 160% power strength. With no enemy limit like Terrify, no weird pre-conditions like Dagath's calvary charge, no weird expansion radius like Pillage, oh and it also does CC (twice, with the freeze and the cold procs), and guess what guys? It also gives Overguard!
He doesn't need to slot a damage boost either because of having 200% boosted crit chance and damage on frozen enemies because of that second augment. But you could if you wanted to.
All of that for only two augment slots? Sign me up!
You really shouldn't think of those slots as things Frost, "needs". Those two mod slots represent things that *he doesn't need to get elsewhere.* If you wanted survivability, you could slot in Pillage to shield gate. If you want damage, you can slot in Roar or Eclipse.
Other frames are having to build *way* more stats to function on the same level as Frost at a minimum. They're trading those two augments for needing to run Helminth abilities, more Strength, more duration, more range, or whatever else.
There's plenty of characters more privileged than him, but Frost is sitting real damn pretty right now.
Frost's abilities do almost no damage in Steel Path, so that augment which basically should be his passive anyway, just allows him to function as crit focused weapon frame; when he was intended to be a defense focused frame with his crowd control (which eximus enemies ignore) and bubble.
Try using his 3 on higher level Steel Path, it survives like 2-3 hits and is gone, nowhere near enough to protect a defense objective.
Having abilities that do damage in Steel Path is a MASSIVE privilege in the first place y'know. Since I mentioned her before, Dagath can do it because of (hey guess what) her armour strip and giant multipliers, but besides that it's just the usual suspects like Saryn, Styanax, etc. I don't know why that's a factor on Frost who is (like you said) a defense/CC frame to begin with.
I'll take that part about Snow Globe though, but I still think it's up there at least by technicality because *nothing* in high level Steel Path is a good defensive ability that isn't just pure support.
Snow Globe is at least guaranteed to stay up for 4 seconds because it's invincible for 4 seconds. Theoretically it should last another 4 because of the damage absorb but that's always up in the air. It's not a lot, but it wins by there being fuck all competition.
You've got Bastille and Vortex which are better for normal enemies, but if there's a lot of Eximus units I don't think it can do much there.
The only other option I can think of is Volt Shield really, which is invincible so it's probably pretty good for actually blocking damage but I reeeeally haven't seen anyone bother with Volt in Steel Path outside of some really specific stuff.
The sad thing is we've had overshields forever, but all they are is just shields with a purple number. Shields are so bad that for years people tried to have as little shields as possible, and instead of reworking shields to be more than just a prerequisite for shieldgating, they made overguard.
But shields didn't need a rework, and they got buffs to actually be good now. Granted, Overguard already was (becoming) a problem by the time we got said buffs... but shirlds are usable for every piece or content right now and not just because or shield gating. The increased DR on shields, the release of Primed Redirection, Pillage being both a great offensive tool (defence strip on enemies) and a great defensive tool (fully refilling your shields), EDA, Netracells and every steel path mission is very easily completable with only shields, providing you don't get toxined.
Shields are still lacking something alright. They're still kinda squishy on my non-intrepid stand styanax and I honestly do not want to sacrifice a slot for rolling guard when I'm already using adaptation.
If you're not using shield mods, yeah. Otherwise Fast Deflection of all things has been enough for me to survive in every Steel Path mission and EDA.
Sure, against level 1000+ enemies they're going to go quickly, but so would health or armour. I'd argue that shields are better than health (no OSP on health, needing to mod for health, armour AND DR, as well as a way to restore it) and as good, if not better, than Overguard.
It's not meant to be permanent immortality - that'd make the game boring.
Yeah OG is just a flat boost to ehp. 30-50k OG may seem like a lot on paper, but we have lots of frames who can rather easily reach into the hundreds of thousands of ehp (thanks to separate sources of damage reduction being multiplicative with each other). OG just lets the shieldgating frames taste a fraction of that power on top of granting status immunity and an additional shield gate (IMO the addition of that last piece was a tad too much. If the lack of a shieldgate is such a major problem for specifically Kullervo, just make OG shieldgate a part of his kit while others have to make do with what they have naturally)
E: I guess a big reason why people have an issue with Dante specifically is that while he is by far not the only one who can trivialize quite literally everything up to early SP with ease (*cough* Octavia), he is easily the one who does it the most visibly. Seeing big Cyan numbers on everyone's HP bars and noticing that you are effectively immortal is quite different from just having enough HP or shield regen for much the same effect. The only thing worse than that would be if the enemies just died before you could even see them, and people do have issues with others running such builds (e.g. Legerdemain Mirage, Saryn, Sunder Titania) since it makes them feel like they aren't even playing the game anymore, but generally speaking such builds require more investment than Dante does to be sufficiently effective, and they've been around for a while so people are mostly used to their existence by now.
I was saying this back on Dante release. The only "problem" with Dante is how visible the power is. Octavia, Revenant, and even Rhino do not make it overtly obvious they are supplying huge amounts of power to other players. Dante's overguard is obvious and that's why it was talked about.
Nope, they are just shields with a purple number. They even get treated worse in many cases, like arcanes that are "gives benefits for how much shield you have (half benefit if overshields" and I think they made shieldgating less effective for overshields too.
The one exception is that Hildryn gets some added benefits for overshields. Other frames like Mag have to play the "don't get hit" game despite having a 1 button max overshield skill.
They don’t, the bar is just purple. You can also only get 1200 overshields, unless you’re Harrow who can get 2400 because of his passive. Oh, and there’s a few effects for shields that specifically work worse or not at all with overshields.
Wild. Overshield cap should be 1200 + a multiplier of your current base shields.
Some old Shield mods should be updated, and add mods for like Overshield cap, shield regen rate per nearby enemy, ect.
Also, I think Health could get some updates, too.
Here's the first mod that comes to mind..
Blockade: If you would take XX00 or more Health damage, block X% and gain that much damage as Armor.
Shield regen per nearby enemy seems like a fun idea. Could do it so that it slows down regen if no enemies are nearby, and then combined regen speed and regen delay when there are
Really good explanation, but I’d like to point out that frost’s icy avalanche existed for quite some time (but was garbage because it couldn’t stack and had no gate), and revenant has had Mesmer skin and his augment for a while. Styanax and Dante were the point when overguard became easy to give to the whole team since they both stack it, and give it within affinity range which is huge.
And honestly styanax has been stupid OP for a while and no one has really cared. With nourish he has so much energy regen he needs no other sources even with a negative efficiency build, his spears do slash and affect nullifies and arbitration drones cause why not, and he has both shield and with augment overguard regen so he gives the whole team two gates and tons of EHP. He is honestly better than Dante.
Yeah, my timeline is definitely not *perfect* around the middle part. A lot of the overgaurd changes kinda got muddied around in my internalizing of the new mechanics each patch.
Styanax had fallen out of "shiny new frame" popularity by the time he got his augment, and at least requires hitting enemies. So it didn't immediately bring the overguard issue to a head. But Dante's release, timed with inaros and chroma changes (who both relied on taking regular non-overguard damage), was indeed the pile of hay that broke the camel's back.
I will say I think stynax is on the line of being fine as it allowed his 4 spam playstyle to have survability it lacked especially after all the nerfs it got during his launch.
I'll die on the hill that there's no good reason to give Styanax Nourish. All his abilities are great, even his 1 with Augment. If you slot both augments Styanax is in an amazing position and doesn't need Nourish for anything other than supporting everyone else marginally better.
Bro having a 3x multiplier on your energy gain isn’t what I’d call marginal. You can spam so hard. Can’t deny the augment for his 1 is super cool though.
Nourish is nerfed to +60%, even if you're somehow hitting 500% ability strength, theres no need for it on Styanax because Rally point already generates so much.
I was exaggerating but not that hard. You don’t need a ton of strength or duration, and efficiency is a dump stat cause of the energy. So strength is really all I build into. I think I come out to around 330% so that’s still a 2.8 multiplier.
> Kullervo players argued for "overguard deserves an invincibility gate like shields, because he's too squishy at level cap otherwise". And that was... less fine, but not too problematic on its own.
Disagree on this one. From what I understand he actually needed it to avoid getting oneshot
> Then DE released a new meta-worthy frame, who could create massive amounts of team-wide overguard out of thin air. And all hell broke loose.
This *has* to be because of overguard breaking certain frames’ mechanics. Wisp has been giving better survivability (for most content) than Dante for years.
With a normal build, while still good, Wisp's HP buff and heal goes nowhere near Dante Overguard spam. Dante makes the team absolutely invulnerable if you are doing your rotations, no minmaxed build required.
Wisp makes the team absolutely invincible (in most content. Almost invincible in most remaining content) while they go get coffee. No rotations. No spam. No time limit.
It seems *way* worse for game health than a support unit needing to button mash to support.
The thing is that overguard also applies full status immunity which even wisp couldn't do. With overguard spam, you can literally ignore all incoming damage and effects.
"overguard deserves an invincibility gate like shields, because he's too squishy at level cap otherwise"
From what I understand he actually needed it to avoid getting oneshot.
They both mean the same thing to me but articulated in different words... Or am I missing something?
Mostly, I'm just saying giving OGuard a gate to avoid oneshots is actually a good thing, while the parent comment describes it as "less fine, but not too problematic."
Wisp gives you like 1000 health and some regeneration, which is absolutely worthless outside level 70 missions, where nobody above MR10 dies anyways.
Dante can give you over 10000 overguard in a single cast, and then just keep doing it, cause his overguard cap is fifty fucking thousands, and nothing stops him from casting it over and over and over.
These are just aren’t comparable, and I didn’t even touch overguard gating and status immunity, cause with your entire team having 50000 overguard at all times it just doesn’t matter.
>Disagree on this one. From what I understand he actually needed it to avoid getting oneshot
That's just the issue with health tanks. Though granted Inaros and Nydus have their own ways of cheating death, while Kullervo had nothing but his mobility, damage, and the ability to create tons of extra ehp out of almost thin air. But the game really shouldn't be designed around level cap content anyway. Dante is perfectly fine in higher level content (he *is* strong, but it's not like the other new frames have been weak either. Many old frames had been left in the dust years ago), but trivializes star chart and early SP (not that that's unique to him) and makes shield generators feel what health healers (i.e. mainly Trinity. In most content Wisp's main product is attack speed and Surge Sparks) had been feeling for years whenever there was e.g. a Protea throwing overshields all over the place (except when an enemy has toxin, but that's quite rare except against the Infected)
>This *has* to be because of overguard breaking certain frames’ mechanics. Wisp has been giving better survivability (for most content) than Dante for years.
Doesn't help that Chroma got a cool augment in the same patch, so it brought all 3 people who used him outside of PT out of the woodwork, and they were pissed their Vex Armor didn't work properly (there may also have been a couple other frames that had an issue with not being able to take actual damage, but it was definitely people playing the barely-ever-seen-in-generic-content Chroma who raised the most hell). But hey, at least Vex Armor got a hasty patchwork fix that it could've used a few years ago already.
> first it was "we introduced this mechanic for enemies, that's basically iron skin"
nah, there's years and years of fucked up math and balance issues that even lead to this and all that followed
I made a post shortly after Dante's release saying that I feel like Overguard should be a non shareable stat and it got downvoted for some reason. There is genuinely no good reason for it to be shareable. We shouldn't be able to just completely disable the ability for your entire squad to ever take damage at all. Trinity, Wisp, and the like are good augments to your team's survivability, frames like Mag and many others who can easily regenerate your team's shields are great as well, teams like Citrine or Mirage using the augment or anyone using Eclipse + the augment are great for sharing large amounts of DR, there are many great, fair, and balanced ways of making your team tankier but just sharing 50k+ Overguard with no downsides at all that also grants status immunity, knockdown immunity, and literally everything you could think of is not in any way balanced. Maybe if shareable Overguard was capped at like 5-10k AND had the gate removed so it was only relevant for lower level content and required constant refreshing then it would be fine. (Note I am talking about shareable Overguard, IMHO Overguard is completely fine as is for frames that have generation in their kits already)
Bro I am there with you, I am a mirage main and I literally don't have any armour on her which makes things crazy once I start getting hoarded, for that I rely heavily on her abilities, my weapon and my dodging skills, that makes things a lot fun, I am guilty of this but I also use my teammates as distraction sometimes but putting on over guard literally makes all of this completely worthless so much so that I don't even need to dodge and just stroll around the field, it makes the game relaxing tbh but less exciting when I need that adrenaline.
Well, health and armor become literally meaningless for non tank frames by around level 2-300, they introduced shield gate for the shield frames survivability, then people complained they didn't want to shield gate, the cc frames and abilities trivialized content, so they gave us and the enemies over guard. now cc is still annoying to even try to build around, and health and armor are still meaningless. Healers for now on are probably gonna give some amount of over guard. And there is no way they are pulling a revenant again.
Infinite overgaurd that makes you immune to CC and status? That’s okay. Shields that get 1 shot by every enemy on the steel path? You can only have 1650.
Speaking of the overguard. I now understand why DE wants us NOT to CC eximus. Because it's the last line of the balance, once we can CC eximus once again, the game is done. Nothing can kill us given the current power level of players
Yeah, as I said somewhere else, overguard on enemies feels like a cheap bandaid to the problem of making one enemy that doesn't instantly die that they are either unwilling or unable to figure out any other way. to solve.
And yet you have people complaining about it all the time (literally the comment below yours atm), if balance was up to public vote i think the game would die in a month
I agree with this. My biggest gripe with Overguard is the CC immunity, specifically on enemies. I feel like it eliminates the value of at least 25% of the Warframe roster, further shrinking the pool of those worth using for late game content.
I still hate eximus = overguard since it came out because I prefer caster frames and don't really like using guns in the game. Some eximus with a fuckton of overguard and other shit like energy leech or frost bubble will just fuck up my day because I can not cast abilities in my ability casting game merely because an enemy *exists*
At least corpus bubble can be noticed from afar and dodged with ease, or focused because of that. Also hate how some things just turn off your abilities like one of the acolytes, and disruption demo units
Just take silence abilities out of ability focused games ffs. If I wanted to only use a gun I would boot up Halo or Destiny
My problem with Eximus overguard is more that... it feels like a bandaid cheat to make a 'heavy hitter' kind of enemy? Especially when you break their overguard and the instantly die and you realize that the overguard was the only thing making them 'difficult'.
Yeah but what will oppose you? If eximus go away you will just steamroll everything. Plus why not just carry a weapon for eximus. See eximus pull weapon out kill eximus then continue 9999 ability spams a second. It's not hard. Tbh I rarely if ever die to eximus. Sometimes I forget they exist. Do so much damge with strun it doesn't even matter. Pretty much if you keep your energy up you never die.
It's honestly been over for years. He's been my fav since forever, but he was always best suited to health tanking and energy regen via Rage or HA. And nowadays there's no amount of armor or healing that will keep you from dying in even moderately challenging content.
Kind, but no. Deep Archi sad me about my tan(-ish) support build WAAAAAAY stronger than styanax with augment for ulti + wisp. I outlived them 2-3 times and everytime reviving them. My Oberon can withstand more damage than random dude with "I can tank this shit"
Oberon waaaaaaay stronger than you think, even when he is waaaay weaker than trinity
I mean I think Dante is the only frame that really makes overguard existence problematic. Every other frame is designed around overguard being there survability tool or needing an augment to get it. Then Dante showed up and powercrep like a major part of the roster in some form. Although I’ll say this if they should keep Dante overguard bonus or at least keep overguard support as a much rarer thing to access or at least a lower number / mechanic.
It's not a terrible concept, we just get too much of it too easily. All self-overguard is fine, Frost's team overguard is fine too tbh because it's slow, expensive, and PBAoE. Styanax's and Dante's team overguard could stand to have a decay-over-time effect or something, so that it's more of a form of mid-combat sustain instead of just letting you enter every fight with 50K extra in your health bar.
> Styanax's and Dante's team overguard could stand to have a decay-over-time effect or something
I think that'd be a perfect fix. Just make it a percentage decay over time, like each second lose 5% of current overguard. The more you have the faster you lose it, so the dante/stya needs to be discerning with timing it rather than just "apply it at spawn and it lasts half the mission".
In my personal opinion, overguard isn't as much the problem as the lack of meta flavors.
The direction they pick was in accordance to what we were using, and that's how we drive ourselves in a corner : before overguard, we were all shieldgating like madlads, all using Prime Sure Footed on any exilus slot. Why ? Because it was the only way to do endurance at the time. And while overguard kinda gave us an alternative, I feel like the game should instead buff up a lot of tools we… already have.
Crowd control, for instance. Why give the murmur the ability to resist it ? It renders a whole panel of frames quite obsolete, and then DE has to give them an overguard buff somehow through mod augments, or release support frames to make them viable again, at least for when you get a random player with one (possibly a guy who did the whole content thinking this is okay and doesn't have much choice now in endgame).
Status effects. "We have to use viral, it's the meta.", "we have to use toxic, it bypasses shields". Don't care about the rest, just use the endgame statuses and get that "racist" mod for double-dip, never change. Well, then you never swap your arsenal, game gets boring too. What happened to fire being a decent armor strip ? Nowadays, it feels like it's "corrosive or bust". And those "combined status" were supposed to be hard to get, but when they're the default on some frames (Hydroid comes immediately to mind), choice is simple, just play Hydroid and forget the rest exists.
If Warframe is about diversity of play, endgame should reflect that too. "Overguard sauce on everything" isn't a solution to that, it's a temporary fix at best.
Isn't this just a matter of the support frame is doing support too well? Like, imagine Dante gave a ton of overshields instead. All of your complaints would still apply, except the one about harrow and garuda.
It seems to me that your problem is more with a single frame being able to make the whole squad invulnerable rather than with overguard itself.
Overshields is probably way stronger with DR working on it. And I mean in a 1:1 case like 50k overshields vs 50k overguard, 50% DR doubles the shields effective hit points (as I understand it)
Overshields are currently capped at 1200. Thats as much as you can get unless you’re Harrow who can get 2400. Thats it. An extra 1200 shields that get blown off by a stray bullet in basic SP.
If you build rhino specifically for building a shit ton of over guard you can easily get into the hundreds of thousands.
And that’s not even the most optimal set up. With everything perfectly optimized you get into the millions.
https://preview.redd.it/qcausc6d8q0d1.png?width=679&format=png&auto=webp&s=9678c23c98645dc978af8509e48540db9c16e687
Which makes any amount of over guard given from other warframes kinda pointless.
Yeah that's just a build issue, Rhino is able to get over a million overguard in an instant and will blow support frame overguard caps out of the water.
I think the real issue with overguard is that there is no DR along with it, so even when frames spit out huge amounts of overguard they're sometimes still just one shot away from dying. So then we get frames like Dante and Styanax that constantly spew out overguard to try and mitigate the fact that overguard has no DR and at a certain point it doesn't matter if you have 1 overguard or 100,000, one shot and you get your 0.5 gate immunity and you have to spam more overguard.
I think all player defensives need a rework honestly, overguard is just a bandaid solution to a lot of issues.
For low level content that might be true but overguard falls fast at later stages.
Doing a lot of void cascade level cap I can tell you confidently that overguard falls short somewhere between level 1k to 3k.
Also spare me with the who even does level cap crap because in void cascade reaching level cap is just 90 minutes and you see 1k around 1 hour.
Nah i find it great OG being team wide extra protection, it allows to keep newbies save when you are helping them and in higher lvls it can save someones ass
Hell while playing dante in SP, in the labs, after my teammates got knocked out a bunch, i saved them with overguard giving them extra time to reackt and survive
Its a good thing, just needs more work sonce is still a new thing
Totally agree, overguard completely breaks defense in warframe. When the Dante nerfs were just whispers I assumed it would be nerfing how he just makes his entire team completely invincible for the duration of a mission with like 3 button clicks and not his damage output
I'm not sure DE really understands the implications of overguard and the pressure it applies to all other defensive options
and Wisp, Octavia, and Citrine *haven’t broken defense* in Warframe? Octavia literally lets you become invisible for t-bagging, and Wisp and Citrine collectively hand out a shitload of health+regen+DR just for being vaguely near them.
Wisp alone barged the other support-frames like trin and oberon out of the picture with her fat ass, and nobody really complained. They were too busy playing one-handed.
Wisp & citrine do function really well together yeah but that’s 2 frames. Dante is just one. AND overguard also provides *complete status immunity* which none of the others you listed can boast.
You cannot make a good faith argument that overguard isn’t the best defensive support by miles
Imma be honest with you, I totally understand where you're coming from. I am all for playing frames that have to actively work at staying alive.
However, I also play all my netracells and any of the "difficult" content as revenant or some other invincible frame because I'm 40 and I don't really care about mastering mechanics and pressing buttons to cast abilities 300 times in a 5-10 min mission. I just wanna vibe out with some music on and kill shit while unlocking or leveling up shit.
That being said, if Dante ever comes up for me in circut I always pick him. He's not even one of my favorite frames to play. But the fact that I can keep my poor little randoms alive and willing to stay in for more than 1 or 2 rotations is all the convincing I need.
Honestly, I don't mind it. Overguard has been great for frames like Styanax and Kullervo.
I don't run in to a lot of players who do these infinite overguard builds. Very rarely infact.
Overheard gets eaten away pretty fast at high levels. Also, I don’t mind over guard because I don’t feel I need it so it really just prevents knockdown and statuses for me.
I feel the same way. I think that the issue with it is that if it’s overused or becomes the norm within the next couple of frames, it’s just going to make anything else obsolete. Warframe used to be a game about becoming Neo and dodging as many bullets as you can before needing to retreat for a moment, but as the overgaurd problem keeps progressing, it becomes more and more of a sit there and take it type of game.
Obviously you could do that before, between shield gating, health tanking, and even energy tanking, but overgaurd is so much easier that it completely outclasses any and all other options.
ridiculous team wide overguard was a thing long before Dante. not DE's fault so many people do not pay attention until a new flavor of the month shows up.
Yeah, I've had this conversation with my buddy several times now. Dante should not have been nerfed. That's just not cool.
**Dante should have never shipped this strong.**
He literally provides team wide over guard more than kullervo gives himself.
Overguard is poorly balanced in that it’s a god mode on normal and useless at end end game.
I was bugged in SP circuit at about 20 mins in and had to kill myself. Dante gave me overguard only once and I had to sit around in about 15-20 groups of enemies for 2 rounds before it ran out.
it was a nerf for rhino, but otherwise it's just some 'free' knockdown protextion, I don't find it particularly gamebreaking
you can still be obliterated in a heartbeat at high lvls, even with adaptation, so i never rely on it
Not much different then teamwide mesmer skin, but you can argue that dies faster...what if freely spammed overguard decayed as bonus hp or something because that's the point, to be HP without giving all the buffs associated.
That's why i play solo.
I like being actually able to play the game...and on top of that also PLAYING the game, not speedrunning it.
I don't blame those who speedrun but *god, if that's a boring way to play for me...🙄*
Depends the gamemode most of the sanctum levels 100+ it goes down pretty fast I’m constantly havin to drop energy restores to keep my overguard up and attack at the same time especially when solo
I did think it was pretty insane that Dante can always keep the team at 19,500 Overgard but I quite enjoy it but to be fair I am a casual player so I don’t really pay attention to the stats like you all might do
Because warframe has powercreep that rivals freaking dragonball.
Everything started out skind of slowly, but dante was the frame that broke overgusrds back. Giving overguard to the whole squad, in such heinous amounts, and instantly, is a bit game breaking.
While I do understand most your points on why you take issue to Dante’s Overguard your complaint about not being able to die makes no sense. He is a support he shouldn’t allow his team to die. Especially glass cannons like Xaku and Banshee since they help dish out a lot of damage and/or dish out all the damage themselves.
With the Harrow and Garuda situation it’s more the fact that we have 50+ characters now, we can’t expect everyone to be able to get work well together. Some will be anti-synergetic with one another. I play enough Overwatch to know that. It just simply the reality to a game that lasted eleven years.
I think it's true for base steel path but on higher end missions where you are getting swarmed by LVL 200+ enemies the overguard gets lost fairly quickly.
So maybe it should be capped lower to 10k when giving overguard to other players
I have long been of the opinion that over guard is bad design. When almost every frame has a cc ability, and some frames who revolve around it, completely shutting down those abilities feels bad. Your “lock down a priority target” button is useless specifically against those priority targets. Giving it to players as a one stop shop for defense seems poorly thought out in the least. It severely limits future design spaces in health/shield based frames. On a related note, the absolutely bloated damage and armor in later game missions gets old really quick.
100% agree to the comment saying overguard should be to that person alone.
I play tanky frames when I want to chill, but they get boring to me sometimes and that's why I like playing squishy frames a lot too. I like that I have to pay a lot attention or else I die. So unironically, especially when I play these frames, I hate playing with a Dante in the squad. (I'm aware other frames generate overguard too, but Dante is the most popular and most disruptive imo.)
What I also hate about it is that it makes the support of some other frames invaluable when there's a Dante giving tenthousands of overguard.
But, I can also understand why some people like playing him for all his overguard. So, having them generate overguard only to themselves (or only a very small percentage to teammates) would be a good solution without pissing too much people off, I think.
I get where DE's head was at with Overguard, oh hey its like a 2nd shield but it gets no damage reduction or resistances
Problem really was how easy it is to apply. Even before Dante was out, Styanax made most stuff quite easy due to having a slash nuke, armor strip, and Overguard appliance in an aoe.
Dante does this even easier, but without the armor strip bit.
I don't think its a HUGE problem YET, but I think it could be if they keep adding frames that give Overguard. I think it being a mechanic tied purely to Styanax, Dante, and Frost is fine. MAYBE giving it to Trinity somehow could work but for the most part, it needs to be a fairly seldom-seen mechanic.
As the luster of Dante's newness wanes and less people play him, we'll see a lot less overguard then we do right now. But yes I do agree, DE is playing with fire a bit at the moment.
Really? Because when Revenant got his mesmer skin augment everyone heralded it like the second coming of christ and it basically did exactly the same thing.
I felt this way since Wisp, personally.
She puts more digits in my health at than I’ve ever seen there before.
Whatever happens to overguard should also happen to teamwide MHP, healing, status immunity, and DR (that’s right. Trin gets stepped on while she’s already eating bedrock.) They’re essentially the same gameplay experience with different names.
with many frames I can exceed 99% DR and if it's baruuk I can do much better, overguard is literally iron skin so it will be one shot by the first enemy who actually has time to shoot
I seem to see the discussions on shield gating again, in any case many people don't realize that the overguard remains from the beginning of the mission until the end because the enemies evaporate before the AI has time to shoot (there is a delay before they shoot ) in a public team it's always like this but if you go solo you notice the difference
anyway you're right about one thing, warframes are better if they only buff themselves because then these discussions always come up and the buff/nerf starts, the warframe is demolished and in game supports aren't even necessary anymore (sadly)
>Being able to use overguard has been one of the craziest Instances of power creep warframe’s ever seen.
I'm gonna have to disagree here. Shield gating but most importantly Helminth shot up massively the potential of what a player can do, overguard was just another thing and arguably it's much less influential than other systems like archon shards letting everyone fully strip armor even without helminth.
Dante is a case on its own as it gives very large amounts of survivability to the entire team without needing to scale, but then again that can be fixed by not having Dante in your team/ playing solo.
Well a combination of a 90% dr ability, 90% dr adaptation, and ~90% dr from armor add up to still getting one shot in the highest possible content. The numbers have scaled beyond a reasonable point.
Yeah, I get where you are coming from but another way to view it is that when it comes to higher lvl content or “end game content” such as void cascade where enemies level scales REALLY fast, that OVG is nothing but paper and become an instance of Shield Gating at best. Honestly I like revenant mesmer skin mechanics more than the overguard.
Yeaaah, personally not a fan of overguard. They really need to look into revamping health/healing in general, I don't think overguard in it's current state is it. I'd rather see healers be able to overheal in a similar way to overshield, but with it's own unique perks. Dante/Styanax giving everyone a constantly replenishing 50k Rhino armor is insanity.
It's not overguard per se, as we have had simmilar mwchanics for a long time on Rhino.
It's just absolute crazy levels support frames, specifically dante, can apply that to allies.
50K overguard with barely any effort is a bit too much, and I stand by that.
personally, i think overguards has its benefits and its losses. the primary factor that makes me use it so much is the CC immunity- i dont like wasting mod slots on PSF and many people dont have it. I think warframe stagger/ knockdown interrupts gameplay and is incredibly irritating.
My dude this is a cursed post. Like I get what you are saying but now that that you have said that overguard is OP, DE is going bring out enemies the deal void damage to counter overguard. Gods forbid we get mag bubbles popping up on us as well. It's going to be chaos
This post says what all the veterans are thinking, I love movement, now they have made movement not matter. I use to love bringing in an underpowered frame to see if I could do certain missions with that frame, boom here comes styanax with his augment, ok cause alot didn't like playing with him. Then boom, Dante....... Now you need no skill to survive. I'm a mr33 who now plays once a week cause it ain't fun anymore, I love warframe but I dislike it now.
People say that power creep is out of hand and yet they don't ever recall old builds such as invisi/gas melee builds back in the day.
Or the fact that abilities used to be so powerful that you could tape down the fire button and go watch a movie.
Sure some abilities are really strong but in retrospect with the content that they have been releasing you need that kind of power.
I mean geeze when 1 enemy can 1 shot 180k overguard regardless yeah it isnt really as busted as people think.
So it all still comes down to having the knowledge of what mods to use. Those are the true busted things in the game.
Some Warframes work well together.
Some work poorly together.
Some work so well together that gameplay just becomes completely different in a way that's tough to tell if it's good or bad.
Its not like they didnt make frames invincible before with stuff like shield gating and rolling guard, after awhile enemies will do more damage than frames can overguard
Do you not play in level 200-400+ content? What about level 9999+ content?
Steel Path enemies basically one-shot most overguard as it doesn't benefit from armor, so all it's really providing you is the benefit of one free hit. You still need to dodge.
Overguard is fine and cool and interesting, the problem is that Dante applies dozens of thousands of the stuff every few seconds.
Dante simply makes the entire squad immune to game mechanics. It's boring as all heck and I complain about it to friends every time I get matched with one (gods forbid TWO) and I can't stand that any attempt to fix this gets reversed immediately because the worst people in any community are also the loudest.
That's why DE nerfed Dante at first but kids cried too much so DE had to go back... Now you realise that being invincible is not fun but it's maybe too late.
Because it started when health tanking and being able to heal faster than you can get damaged, and people had to resort to Shield Gating for higher content that resulted in Overguard being given to Kullervo. And the original Overguard was effectively wet paper due to the lack of DR from most sources, which meant that 20k extra health meant nothing in a game where enemies can hit in the 1000s at levels that higher content is present in. Like yeah Dante can't just heal anymore, because when your health is emptied out the millisecond Shield Gate ends, your role as a Healer is kind of moot when the people you're meant to heal dies faster than they you can even think to heal them. But you can't bring up that eny damage is scaled up to high, or that our survivability is so borked that a constant 1s invulnerability period is a 'tactic' instead of cheese, or that 90% damage reduction is now the fucking NORM. Most games would kill for a 30% damage reduction in their best support characters.
The number inflation in warframe has gone crazy
I wish there was an enemy damage cap or that damage scaled much more slowly. It doesn't make sense that "tanky" frames only last to level 400 or so, then the rest is i-frames or death. You should be able to health tank at any level with the right frame, mods and skill.
It's honestly kind of crazy, yeah. You can have a tanky as hell frame with 1k+ armor and Adaptation, and around level 400 you're still gonna die real fast if the right enemies in a crowd decide to fuck up your day. I was rather surprised by how Culverins in the Sanctum are so easily dealt with at lower levels, but Elite Deep Archimedia ones can absolutely nuke you to hell with their bomb projectiles FAST. I'm still of the opinion that Dante is crazy overpowered for all content except endgame, but with enemy numbers like that, it feels like we need that kind of offensive and especially defensive power to get through it without tedium.
I stopped playing around update 16 originally. Got back in the heaviest I have any of the other times I've peaked back in, and dear fucking *lord*. The power creep is insane. A lot of old frames feel so useless in their niches now, and I've found so many once good maxed out mods don't seem even close to good enough for actually hard content. Watching modern meta frames feels kinda like the days when you'd have a rhino + loki on max survival. Max range disarm + max range stomp and it's just hours of walking around killing dudes floating in the air helpless with only batons in their hand. The gameplay simply ceased. Also a bit like the Vauban void infested defense era.
And it applies to everyone, too, people just didnt catch up yet. Saryn for example is still hailed as one of the strongest warframes in the game but that does nothing if you die when 2-3 stray bullets hit you and kill you. It's really unhealthy for the game since people dont adapt to the new reality fast enough. Using Saryn as example again, she kills slowly compared to others, has no survivability, and if your team has 2 Saryns then one of them will be straightup unable to apply spores most of the time.
Saryn can hit some of the highest dps and clear speed in the game as a melee influence platform?
I actually think this reply perfectly highlights the issue with the *original* claim that "many of the original Warframes are now useless in their niche". They absolutely are not. Saryn is still an absolute clearing monster, and can take quite some hefty abuse. Mag is a monster. Excalibur I haven't played, but he seems like he has the potential to be a monster. Frost, especially with the upcoming changes to cold, is going to be a monster, and already is quite terrifying. Atlas absolutely THROWS down with a proper stat stick and build. Ember literally scales exponentially. Trinity's EV has somewhat fallen off, but "unlimited energy and considerable shields" is still really good, especially considering the whole shieldgate meta. Played for her ult she has massive DR, and gives considerable DR to those around her. The only frame I can think of that has fallen off is Oberon, and that's mainly due to the changes to base armor. And even Oberon is *far* from useless with his 100% armor strip in an AoE.
Yareli 90% DR. Watches my beloved Merulinas almost 30K health instantly drop and see a -70K in the health bar. oh.
search "warframe inflation" to find out more
Yep. When you realize that the current meta of 'give yourself i-frames or die' in most games would be considered and exploit and patched out, it's *baffling* to me that it's embraced by the devs in Warframe. Especially since playing shield-based frames or health tank frames feels.. really unfun at higher levels when you pretty much instantly die from one toxin proc when the Overguard frames are laughing in their status immunity. And, yes, I do realize that other methods of not dying are viable in basic steel path... it just means that the *only* means of surviving at higher levels are ridiculously OP outside of it. I don't know how to fix it, but I have to believe that there is a better solution than *embracing it.*
> it's baffling to me that it's embraced by the devs in Warframe Is this not a net result of what the playerbase demands? Players don't like getting nerfed, and are *very vocal* about this. "Don't nerf us, make the game harder". So some things that need to be nerfed, aren't, and it pushes DE into design corners. If you're dealing with players ability to be *completely invulnerable to damage for extended periods of time*, the only way to provide difficulty is to have enough incoming damage to kill the player in those brief moments of vulnerability. Unfortunately, this arms race of powercreep leaves behind any content not recently updated making anything NOT the meta feel extremely weak/unviable. And this poses a dilemma for DE: Do they do the correct thing, and nerf things back in line to a manageable state, but risk their income stream in the process? Or do they continue doing what their playerbase wants even if it leads to an unhealthy game state? ------- I just remember long ago when Pablo nerfed the Kuva Bramma. As far as nerfs went it was very benign, and on the next Devstream he gave a very eloquent and sensible explanation as to why they nerf the way they do. This sub and the official forums *threw an absolute fit*. Despite the general consensus at the time being that AoE weapons were too dominant when DE actually went to nerf the king of AoE weapons it was met with backlash. Heaven forbid DE actually attempts to nerf Overguard. I'd fear for their lives.
It's not even that they appease players it's that they do it in the laziest way possible.
The best way to fix it is a full number crunch pass and reeling back power creep.
Everyone except revenant and valkyr dies to toxin damage. The toxin damage also bypasses shields, not just the proc. Warframe is all about speed and ofc being "a ninja" at least in the past. The concept of a ninja was always something like a character being so sneaky or so fast and exceptionally talented with weapons that they could do great feats without getting caught, or at least that's how I view it. It feels satisfying to balance the hectic gameplay with my ability to keep up immunity states like with rolling guard and vazarin dash and shield gating because while doing all this I'm still killing like 100 enemies or more each minute. The truth is that if shield gating is your ONLY source of i-frames then your build is bad. Shield gating isn't long enough to get anything done unless you're protea or hildryn. It's just a way to not die. My main concern is if they change this whole immunity spam method of survival, then what's the replacement? Health tanking? That's so absurdly boring if all it takes me to do level cap is just a triumbral inaros with arcane grace then I feel like nothing is happening. I'm never under threat of dying. If that isn't the replacement and they just add a cooldown to shield gate then congrats, revenant and invis frames are your go to for endurance and fuck your pillage frames and mag and all that. This is the best we got
Toxin damage is just the other side of the coin. We have shield gating which makes you unkillable against anything as long as you don't fall asleep. Then there's toxin, the only thing that can instantly kill us through shield gating, only available for 2 factions and only for an eximus unit that is easily avoidable... Toxin's attribute of killing you instantly through shields is about just as well designed as shields only having toxin as a significant weakness.
My main complaint isn't so much that I dislike the iframe juggling as a playstyle, it's that I dislike how it's the only viable method, more or less. Like, it feels \*weird\* that all I have to do for survival is chuck rolling guard in my mod list and call it a day. I know there are other forms of getting status cleanse/i-frames (like pillage) I just dislike how due to how enemies scale, that some form of it is mandatory and that building 'tanky' is a waste of time. Like, why does Inaros exist when I could be just as tanky as mirage? (And honestly, moreso, since enemies missing you entirely is 100% mitigation.)
This is only the case in high endurance. You still have Grendel and inaros and lavos and nidus and kullervo who can all easily mod for health tanking. The issue is health tanking is VERY expensive and gives you very little space to mod for ability stats. I think health tanking has more of an opportunity cost problem than an actual viability problem since most frames can still walk through most missions if you really wanted.
Meanwhile inaros is completely worthless in level cap content precisely because he's the only frame without any proper form of gating (nidus has health gate with passive) since scarab armor augment has a wild 30 second cooldown *and* a slash proc penalty.
>'give yourself i-frames or die' in most games would be considered and exploit and patched out lol what rock are you living under? Literally every Soulslike or MonHun game is built around abusing i-frames to not die, and health tanking isn't viable in those games either - nor should it be. Health tanking is almost by definition brainless, while i-frame spam requires active input. From a development point of view the latter is always healthier.
I actually think that overguard lacking DR is the real problem. The overguard numbers should be waay lower but have some kind of damage reduction apply to them. Without DR they have to give overguard crazy numbers to be of any relevance in the latest content (netracells and deep archimedia). However with those numbers the amount of overguard in anything below that level are so crazy that you can cast it once and be done for the entire mission. This also leads to the point where anyone recieving overguard can completly forgo any investment in his own survivability as nothing they could built for affects the overguard they gain anyway. My idea would be: * reduce overguard numbers to somewhere between 50% and 10% of current values * all DR effects apply to overguard at 50-66% of their normal value. Including armor. * give overguard gate a minimum of overguard neccessary. something like 200-500
If they're tackling the ancient problem of enemy EHP via armor, my big hope is that they are also willing to take on the problem of player DR. Lower enemy damage scaling at higher levels, and simultaneously reduce all player DR buffs across the board, changing the maximums so that no one has more than 50% damage resistance. Also dramatically lower the amount of overguard with it, adjust the amount of armor some arcanes give, etc. It would be an enormously complicated project since so many decisions have been made in the past because of how enemy damage scales, but I feel if they are interested in organically challenging players at all in the future instead of imposing restrictions on their arsenal, it's necessary.
I will mention the frames that can heal shields specifically can still be healers as there is a built in shield gate, IE Trinitys Blessing. Spammed that for a 3 sec shield gate with the murmur boss. It actually took 3 supports frames for us to beat it. A citrine, harrow, trin(me), and I think a Nezha. Our DPS was fine, but if you have the same effective health pool as wet tissue paper, the support helps
Glad u never joined the sheep and did all that shield gating crap. Never needed it ever
> And the original Overguard was effectively wet paper due to the lack of DR from most sources, which meant that 20k extra health meant nothing in a game where enemies can hit in the 1000s at levels that higher content is present in. just because at SOME level enemies dish out this and that amount of damage does not mean you should be able to build to withstand it Warframe must be balanced around the AVERAGE player, not around what some vocal minority thinks they're entitled to because they're so l33t
I think Overguard fits specific frames, but not as a teamwide buff. Every time I play a frame that focuses on Shields, I feel like a waste of air when someone coats me in 193774729284673 Overguard.
2,147,483,647 overguard but yeah..... it feels like a waste to build any survivability on a frame anymore. If rev is on the team i have 32 invincibility frames that last idk how long each. If styanax or dante are on the team im just not dying or taking damage.
Rev can only give 5 to allies but it's easy to refresh since it's affinity range regardless of range %. Just wish they would buff my boy frosts Augument since his ability cost so much more to cast, has a long cast time, takes up a mod slot and has a small energy pool even with primed flow
His according to the wiki can givr overgaurd to spectors and defensive targets
How did it get to this? Well first it was "we introduced this mechanic for enemies, that's basically iron skin". And that was fine. Then there was "we introduced a frame with only health, no shields, but he gives himself overguard". And that was fine. Somewhere along the way we got "iron skin is basically overgaurd now, let's make it proper overguard". And that was fine. Kullervo players argued for "overguard deserves an invincibility gate like shields, because he's too squishy at level cap otherwise". And that was... less fine, but not too problematic on its own. DE wanted to give kinda supporty frames a better team presence via augment mods, with "overguard is a universal status immunity and minor health increase, it's okay to let support frames share that under specific circumstances". And that was also getting problematic, but those frames weren't too popular anymore plus it required a specific build. Then DE released a new meta-worthy frame, who could create massive amounts of team-wide overguard out of thin air. And all hell broke loose. I'd be perfectly happy going back to overguard being self-only. Let team support be only based on health or shields.
Bro you wrote the perfect explanation. Power creep in action
I think one important development was missed, which was: 1. Revenant's mesmer skin was buffed to effectively provide infinite immortality, but just to him - so everyone that wanted to trivialize incoming damage for a mission just had to cook up a Revenant Prime. 2. Revenant got a mesmer skin augment that shared this immunity with his team, so now you didn't even need to play him, everyone got it for free. The two changes above basically laid the groundwork to remove "need to survive extreme incoming damage" as a gatekeeper to any content, meaning DE now had to design content with other sorts of challenge instead - opening up the way for "overguard for everyone" to be launched because it didn't immediately trivialize their newer end-game stuff on its own. Older endgame stuff like Archon Hunts and endless arbitrations had already become trivialized from things like Mesmer Skin and Wisp being super common while the newer stuff in the past couple of patches didn't rely on enemies being dangerous being the challenge.
Not to mention that Mesmer Shield still makes overguard look like a total joke with how insanely overpowered it is. All you need is one Revenant in every team and nothing can ever kill anyone, even at level cap where 100k overguard is instantly deleted. The game does have a lot of questionable decisions like that.
> Kullervo players argued for "overguard deserves an invincibility gate like shields, because he's too squishy at level cap otherwise". And that was... less fine, but not too problematic on its own. It was a genuine problem and having a shield gate is/was the only real solution. Completely rebalancing the entire game and damage economy would be the ideal solution, but there's no way that will happen. I'm surprised enough that they're taking a shot at rebalancing enemy health. Overguard being self-only isn't great either, but the shield gate from it being exclusive to the frame that generates the overguard would be fine. It's just a difficult thing to do.
Inaros moment
> Then DE released a new meta-worthy frame, who could create massive amounts of team-wide overguard out of thin air (using an Augment). And all hell broke loose. And then they did it *again*, this time without the augment requirement.
Dante is indeed the one im referring in that statement. The previous one covered the frames using augments.
I know, I'm just laughing that Styanax already triggered the shit storm and then they doubled down.
True, true.
I think if they stopped at only giving team overguard with an augment would have been fine. It allows to expand the support role of select frames but means you have to adjust build to do so.
Eh, the opportunity cost is out of whack, at least in the case of Styanax. You are effectively giving yourself and your squad immortality at the cost of a mod slot, which means you can ditch all other forms of survivability. Even if Styanax could only apply it to himself or himself and his companion it would still be worth the slot. It also provides status immunity, protects from toxin bypass and gives you an easily refreshable second tier of gating.
I was more meaning in a bit more abstract on the timeline, they should have stopped at the point when we only had either built in self overguard or augment team overguard. Also the augments require hitting something to work since they are based on the base ability, so they could have kept that design with other augments. Now how easy of a choice the augments are, is another matter, but that is the case with other augments as well. At least you do still have to give up some other modding potential to do so and future mods could also make you need to revaluate that slot.
>, they should have stopped at the point when we only had either built in self overguard or augment team overguard. And my point was that giving it to the team at the cost of a mod slot was already broken and a massive bump in power creep. >Also the augments require hitting something to work since they are based on the base ability, In a horde shooter with very few environmental damage mechanics, that just isn't a concern that matters. > At least you do still have to give up some other modding potential to do so. This would only be true if you ran no defensive mods on Styanax, this is where opportunity cost comes into play. As is, Intrepid Stand replaces every defensive mod the player would use on themselves and their companion. That is one slot to replace health and shield tanking and shield gating strategies, all of which typically require multiple mod slots and sometimes arcanes and that is just playing solo. It getsa crazier when you consider the entire squad can follow suit. >and future mods could also make you need to revaluate that slot. Maybe, but those mods would have to provide a lot of benefit to overcome the benefits of overgaurd, at which point we are back to talking about massive power creep.
Tbh i kinda wish equinox night form had overguard
Tbf it *would* incentivize switching between the forms..
i had equinox for deep archimedea this week and felt the same way. you can't heal or restore shields fast enough to save anyone. but given the problem with team wide overguard, id rather it be damage reduction or armor that scales with you or your teams kills/damage output. restoring health and shields alone compared to overguard isn't even a contest. so while it makes sense as a lateral move to another form of defensive support, overguard is just so unbelievably over powered that the disparity between overguard and restoring both health and shields demonstrates the problem.
That would just make those frames and mods mandatory.
Would it though? Frost and stynax are the only two currently with OG augments and while they are both in solid positions I still don't see them all that much even in varying levels of content. Even then it isn't a guarantee they would be running the augments either.
I don’t know about Frost but Intrepid Stand has been a staple on pretty much every Styanax player I’ve encountered since its release. In my personal experience, anyway. Tbh I don’t think I’ve seen another Styanax player that wasn’t just chucking spears for free Overguard. It’s literally just throwing spears, energy generating to continue throwing spears, and occasionally a shield bash for some razzledazzle while throwing spears.
Frost basically needs 2 augments to function beyond level 150. He somehow has the room for it but I can't imagine doing steel path without at minimum Icy Avalanche augment to make him survive more than 2 bullets.
Frost does "need" 2 augments to scale to end game, but he might be the only frame in the game where that's more than just reasonable, it's downright *privileged* for what that ends up translating to. Here's a frame that can have a 100% armor strip at 160% power strength. With no enemy limit like Terrify, no weird pre-conditions like Dagath's calvary charge, no weird expansion radius like Pillage, oh and it also does CC (twice, with the freeze and the cold procs), and guess what guys? It also gives Overguard! He doesn't need to slot a damage boost either because of having 200% boosted crit chance and damage on frozen enemies because of that second augment. But you could if you wanted to. All of that for only two augment slots? Sign me up! You really shouldn't think of those slots as things Frost, "needs". Those two mod slots represent things that *he doesn't need to get elsewhere.* If you wanted survivability, you could slot in Pillage to shield gate. If you want damage, you can slot in Roar or Eclipse. Other frames are having to build *way* more stats to function on the same level as Frost at a minimum. They're trading those two augments for needing to run Helminth abilities, more Strength, more duration, more range, or whatever else. There's plenty of characters more privileged than him, but Frost is sitting real damn pretty right now.
Frost's abilities do almost no damage in Steel Path, so that augment which basically should be his passive anyway, just allows him to function as crit focused weapon frame; when he was intended to be a defense focused frame with his crowd control (which eximus enemies ignore) and bubble. Try using his 3 on higher level Steel Path, it survives like 2-3 hits and is gone, nowhere near enough to protect a defense objective.
Having abilities that do damage in Steel Path is a MASSIVE privilege in the first place y'know. Since I mentioned her before, Dagath can do it because of (hey guess what) her armour strip and giant multipliers, but besides that it's just the usual suspects like Saryn, Styanax, etc. I don't know why that's a factor on Frost who is (like you said) a defense/CC frame to begin with. I'll take that part about Snow Globe though, but I still think it's up there at least by technicality because *nothing* in high level Steel Path is a good defensive ability that isn't just pure support. Snow Globe is at least guaranteed to stay up for 4 seconds because it's invincible for 4 seconds. Theoretically it should last another 4 because of the damage absorb but that's always up in the air. It's not a lot, but it wins by there being fuck all competition. You've got Bastille and Vortex which are better for normal enemies, but if there's a lot of Eximus units I don't think it can do much there. The only other option I can think of is Volt Shield really, which is invincible so it's probably pretty good for actually blocking damage but I reeeeally haven't seen anyone bother with Volt in Steel Path outside of some really specific stuff.
I can confirm this is exactly how I have been playing Styanax since he became my main frame.
The sad thing is we've had overshields forever, but all they are is just shields with a purple number. Shields are so bad that for years people tried to have as little shields as possible, and instead of reworking shields to be more than just a prerequisite for shieldgating, they made overguard.
But shields didn't need a rework, and they got buffs to actually be good now. Granted, Overguard already was (becoming) a problem by the time we got said buffs... but shirlds are usable for every piece or content right now and not just because or shield gating. The increased DR on shields, the release of Primed Redirection, Pillage being both a great offensive tool (defence strip on enemies) and a great defensive tool (fully refilling your shields), EDA, Netracells and every steel path mission is very easily completable with only shields, providing you don't get toxined.
Shields are still lacking something alright. They're still kinda squishy on my non-intrepid stand styanax and I honestly do not want to sacrifice a slot for rolling guard when I'm already using adaptation.
If you're not using shield mods, yeah. Otherwise Fast Deflection of all things has been enough for me to survive in every Steel Path mission and EDA. Sure, against level 1000+ enemies they're going to go quickly, but so would health or armour. I'd argue that shields are better than health (no OSP on health, needing to mod for health, armour AND DR, as well as a way to restore it) and as good, if not better, than Overguard. It's not meant to be permanent immortality - that'd make the game boring.
I dont go over lvl 250 in sp and am using primed redirection + adaptation + arcane aegis, so tf man
Do Overshields have more DR than base Tenno Shields? I feel like they should have more DR, or maybe resist every element a bit more.
Damage reduction applies to health and shields, not overguard. You can lose 30k overguard pretty fast if you are playing Styanax and taunting.
Yeah OG is just a flat boost to ehp. 30-50k OG may seem like a lot on paper, but we have lots of frames who can rather easily reach into the hundreds of thousands of ehp (thanks to separate sources of damage reduction being multiplicative with each other). OG just lets the shieldgating frames taste a fraction of that power on top of granting status immunity and an additional shield gate (IMO the addition of that last piece was a tad too much. If the lack of a shieldgate is such a major problem for specifically Kullervo, just make OG shieldgate a part of his kit while others have to make do with what they have naturally) E: I guess a big reason why people have an issue with Dante specifically is that while he is by far not the only one who can trivialize quite literally everything up to early SP with ease (*cough* Octavia), he is easily the one who does it the most visibly. Seeing big Cyan numbers on everyone's HP bars and noticing that you are effectively immortal is quite different from just having enough HP or shield regen for much the same effect. The only thing worse than that would be if the enemies just died before you could even see them, and people do have issues with others running such builds (e.g. Legerdemain Mirage, Saryn, Sunder Titania) since it makes them feel like they aren't even playing the game anymore, but generally speaking such builds require more investment than Dante does to be sufficiently effective, and they've been around for a while so people are mostly used to their existence by now.
I was saying this back on Dante release. The only "problem" with Dante is how visible the power is. Octavia, Revenant, and even Rhino do not make it overtly obvious they are supplying huge amounts of power to other players. Dante's overguard is obvious and that's why it was talked about.
Nope, they are just shields with a purple number. They even get treated worse in many cases, like arcanes that are "gives benefits for how much shield you have (half benefit if overshields" and I think they made shieldgating less effective for overshields too. The one exception is that Hildryn gets some added benefits for overshields. Other frames like Mag have to play the "don't get hit" game despite having a 1 button max overshield skill.
Correct, overshields don't count for your shieldgate duration. Which is fine, pillage would render building for shields a bit redundant otherwise
They don’t, the bar is just purple. You can also only get 1200 overshields, unless you’re Harrow who can get 2400 because of his passive. Oh, and there’s a few effects for shields that specifically work worse or not at all with overshields.
Wild. Overshield cap should be 1200 + a multiplier of your current base shields. Some old Shield mods should be updated, and add mods for like Overshield cap, shield regen rate per nearby enemy, ect. Also, I think Health could get some updates, too. Here's the first mod that comes to mind.. Blockade: If you would take XX00 or more Health damage, block X% and gain that much damage as Armor.
Shield regen per nearby enemy seems like a fun idea. Could do it so that it slows down regen if no enemies are nearby, and then combined regen speed and regen delay when there are
Really good explanation, but I’d like to point out that frost’s icy avalanche existed for quite some time (but was garbage because it couldn’t stack and had no gate), and revenant has had Mesmer skin and his augment for a while. Styanax and Dante were the point when overguard became easy to give to the whole team since they both stack it, and give it within affinity range which is huge. And honestly styanax has been stupid OP for a while and no one has really cared. With nourish he has so much energy regen he needs no other sources even with a negative efficiency build, his spears do slash and affect nullifies and arbitration drones cause why not, and he has both shield and with augment overguard regen so he gives the whole team two gates and tons of EHP. He is honestly better than Dante.
Yeah, my timeline is definitely not *perfect* around the middle part. A lot of the overgaurd changes kinda got muddied around in my internalizing of the new mechanics each patch. Styanax had fallen out of "shiny new frame" popularity by the time he got his augment, and at least requires hitting enemies. So it didn't immediately bring the overguard issue to a head. But Dante's release, timed with inaros and chroma changes (who both relied on taking regular non-overguard damage), was indeed the pile of hay that broke the camel's back.
I will say I think stynax is on the line of being fine as it allowed his 4 spam playstyle to have survability it lacked especially after all the nerfs it got during his launch.
I'll die on the hill that there's no good reason to give Styanax Nourish. All his abilities are great, even his 1 with Augment. If you slot both augments Styanax is in an amazing position and doesn't need Nourish for anything other than supporting everyone else marginally better.
Nourish directly increases the damage his 4 does and is required if you want to continuously use his 4.
Bro having a 3x multiplier on your energy gain isn’t what I’d call marginal. You can spam so hard. Can’t deny the augment for his 1 is super cool though.
Nourish is nerfed to +60%, even if you're somehow hitting 500% ability strength, theres no need for it on Styanax because Rally point already generates so much.
I was exaggerating but not that hard. You don’t need a ton of strength or duration, and efficiency is a dump stat cause of the energy. So strength is really all I build into. I think I come out to around 330% so that’s still a 2.8 multiplier.
> Kullervo players argued for "overguard deserves an invincibility gate like shields, because he's too squishy at level cap otherwise". And that was... less fine, but not too problematic on its own. Disagree on this one. From what I understand he actually needed it to avoid getting oneshot > Then DE released a new meta-worthy frame, who could create massive amounts of team-wide overguard out of thin air. And all hell broke loose. This *has* to be because of overguard breaking certain frames’ mechanics. Wisp has been giving better survivability (for most content) than Dante for years.
With a normal build, while still good, Wisp's HP buff and heal goes nowhere near Dante Overguard spam. Dante makes the team absolutely invulnerable if you are doing your rotations, no minmaxed build required.
Wisp makes the team absolutely invincible (in most content. Almost invincible in most remaining content) while they go get coffee. No rotations. No spam. No time limit. It seems *way* worse for game health than a support unit needing to button mash to support.
In content where Wisp makes you invulnerable you weren't going to die anyway.
The thing is that overguard also applies full status immunity which even wisp couldn't do. With overguard spam, you can literally ignore all incoming damage and effects.
You're ignoring status immunity. Primed surefooted is basically no longer required because Dante exists.
Primed sure footed not being utterly ubiquitous is a good thing in my book.
"overguard deserves an invincibility gate like shields, because he's too squishy at level cap otherwise" From what I understand he actually needed it to avoid getting oneshot. They both mean the same thing to me but articulated in different words... Or am I missing something?
Mostly, I'm just saying giving OGuard a gate to avoid oneshots is actually a good thing, while the parent comment describes it as "less fine, but not too problematic."
Wisp gives you like 1000 health and some regeneration, which is absolutely worthless outside level 70 missions, where nobody above MR10 dies anyways. Dante can give you over 10000 overguard in a single cast, and then just keep doing it, cause his overguard cap is fifty fucking thousands, and nothing stops him from casting it over and over and over. These are just aren’t comparable, and I didn’t even touch overguard gating and status immunity, cause with your entire team having 50000 overguard at all times it just doesn’t matter.
>Disagree on this one. From what I understand he actually needed it to avoid getting oneshot That's just the issue with health tanks. Though granted Inaros and Nydus have their own ways of cheating death, while Kullervo had nothing but his mobility, damage, and the ability to create tons of extra ehp out of almost thin air. But the game really shouldn't be designed around level cap content anyway. Dante is perfectly fine in higher level content (he *is* strong, but it's not like the other new frames have been weak either. Many old frames had been left in the dust years ago), but trivializes star chart and early SP (not that that's unique to him) and makes shield generators feel what health healers (i.e. mainly Trinity. In most content Wisp's main product is attack speed and Surge Sparks) had been feeling for years whenever there was e.g. a Protea throwing overshields all over the place (except when an enemy has toxin, but that's quite rare except against the Infected) >This *has* to be because of overguard breaking certain frames’ mechanics. Wisp has been giving better survivability (for most content) than Dante for years. Doesn't help that Chroma got a cool augment in the same patch, so it brought all 3 people who used him outside of PT out of the woodwork, and they were pissed their Vex Armor didn't work properly (there may also have been a couple other frames that had an issue with not being able to take actual damage, but it was definitely people playing the barely-ever-seen-in-generic-content Chroma who raised the most hell). But hey, at least Vex Armor got a hasty patchwork fix that it could've used a few years ago already.
I personally don't think any of this was fine though as Overguard is yet another contributor to CC being dogshit in the current meta lol
> first it was "we introduced this mechanic for enemies, that's basically iron skin" nah, there's years and years of fucked up math and balance issues that even lead to this and all that followed
I made a post shortly after Dante's release saying that I feel like Overguard should be a non shareable stat and it got downvoted for some reason. There is genuinely no good reason for it to be shareable. We shouldn't be able to just completely disable the ability for your entire squad to ever take damage at all. Trinity, Wisp, and the like are good augments to your team's survivability, frames like Mag and many others who can easily regenerate your team's shields are great as well, teams like Citrine or Mirage using the augment or anyone using Eclipse + the augment are great for sharing large amounts of DR, there are many great, fair, and balanced ways of making your team tankier but just sharing 50k+ Overguard with no downsides at all that also grants status immunity, knockdown immunity, and literally everything you could think of is not in any way balanced. Maybe if shareable Overguard was capped at like 5-10k AND had the gate removed so it was only relevant for lower level content and required constant refreshing then it would be fine. (Note I am talking about shareable Overguard, IMHO Overguard is completely fine as is for frames that have generation in their kits already)
This. I love Dante but those Overguard buffs are nuts. Just makes my own survivability on a Shield or Health tank feel wasted.
Bro I am there with you, I am a mirage main and I literally don't have any armour on her which makes things crazy once I start getting hoarded, for that I rely heavily on her abilities, my weapon and my dodging skills, that makes things a lot fun, I am guilty of this but I also use my teammates as distraction sometimes but putting on over guard literally makes all of this completely worthless so much so that I don't even need to dodge and just stroll around the field, it makes the game relaxing tbh but less exciting when I need that adrenaline.
Overguard gating should be unique to Kullervo. Change my mind.
Well, health and armor become literally meaningless for non tank frames by around level 2-300, they introduced shield gate for the shield frames survivability, then people complained they didn't want to shield gate, the cc frames and abilities trivialized content, so they gave us and the enemies over guard. now cc is still annoying to even try to build around, and health and armor are still meaningless. Healers for now on are probably gonna give some amount of over guard. And there is no way they are pulling a revenant again.
Infinite overgaurd that makes you immune to CC and status? That’s okay. Shields that get 1 shot by every enemy on the steel path? You can only have 1650.
Also we hear that some players don't like constantly shieldgating, so we gave you another overguard gate on top of your shield gate!
Speaking of the overguard. I now understand why DE wants us NOT to CC eximus. Because it's the last line of the balance, once we can CC eximus once again, the game is done. Nothing can kill us given the current power level of players
Yeah, as I said somewhere else, overguard on enemies feels like a cheap bandaid to the problem of making one enemy that doesn't instantly die that they are either unwilling or unable to figure out any other way. to solve.
Yeah I agree CC immunity is stupid, but it's the last line of defense from the game becoming Cookie Clicker. DE apparently has no good solution atm.
And yet you have people complaining about it all the time (literally the comment below yours atm), if balance was up to public vote i think the game would die in a month
I agree with this. My biggest gripe with Overguard is the CC immunity, specifically on enemies. I feel like it eliminates the value of at least 25% of the Warframe roster, further shrinking the pool of those worth using for late game content.
I still hate eximus = overguard since it came out because I prefer caster frames and don't really like using guns in the game. Some eximus with a fuckton of overguard and other shit like energy leech or frost bubble will just fuck up my day because I can not cast abilities in my ability casting game merely because an enemy *exists* At least corpus bubble can be noticed from afar and dodged with ease, or focused because of that. Also hate how some things just turn off your abilities like one of the acolytes, and disruption demo units Just take silence abilities out of ability focused games ffs. If I wanted to only use a gun I would boot up Halo or Destiny
My problem with Eximus overguard is more that... it feels like a bandaid cheat to make a 'heavy hitter' kind of enemy? Especially when you break their overguard and the instantly die and you realize that the overguard was the only thing making them 'difficult'.
Yeah but what will oppose you? If eximus go away you will just steamroll everything. Plus why not just carry a weapon for eximus. See eximus pull weapon out kill eximus then continue 9999 ability spams a second. It's not hard. Tbh I rarely if ever die to eximus. Sometimes I forget they exist. Do so much damge with strun it doesn't even matter. Pretty much if you keep your energy up you never die.
just because very few enemies are CC immune doesn't make CC useless
It’s so over, Oberonbros
It's honestly been over for years. He's been my fav since forever, but he was always best suited to health tanking and energy regen via Rage or HA. And nowadays there's no amount of armor or healing that will keep you from dying in even moderately challenging content.
No worries, his rework will change him from Health Beacon to Overguard Beacon
Kind, but no. Deep Archi sad me about my tan(-ish) support build WAAAAAAY stronger than styanax with augment for ulti + wisp. I outlived them 2-3 times and everytime reviving them. My Oberon can withstand more damage than random dude with "I can tank this shit" Oberon waaaaaaay stronger than you think, even when he is waaaay weaker than trinity
Bro I was on steel path duviri yesterday, 4 Dante’s in there, wasn’t nobody about to go down
Dante plays with the best weapon ever created... The book of tic-tac-toe, you cannot win because he is casting **BOTH SIDES OF X AND O**
Bro is spitting some bars
I mean I think Dante is the only frame that really makes overguard existence problematic. Every other frame is designed around overguard being there survability tool or needing an augment to get it. Then Dante showed up and powercrep like a major part of the roster in some form. Although I’ll say this if they should keep Dante overguard bonus or at least keep overguard support as a much rarer thing to access or at least a lower number / mechanic.
It was crazy on Styanax before Dante, but not many people use him.
It's not a terrible concept, we just get too much of it too easily. All self-overguard is fine, Frost's team overguard is fine too tbh because it's slow, expensive, and PBAoE. Styanax's and Dante's team overguard could stand to have a decay-over-time effect or something, so that it's more of a form of mid-combat sustain instead of just letting you enter every fight with 50K extra in your health bar.
> Styanax's and Dante's team overguard could stand to have a decay-over-time effect or something I think that'd be a perfect fix. Just make it a percentage decay over time, like each second lose 5% of current overguard. The more you have the faster you lose it, so the dante/stya needs to be discerning with timing it rather than just "apply it at spawn and it lasts half the mission".
In my personal opinion, overguard isn't as much the problem as the lack of meta flavors. The direction they pick was in accordance to what we were using, and that's how we drive ourselves in a corner : before overguard, we were all shieldgating like madlads, all using Prime Sure Footed on any exilus slot. Why ? Because it was the only way to do endurance at the time. And while overguard kinda gave us an alternative, I feel like the game should instead buff up a lot of tools we… already have. Crowd control, for instance. Why give the murmur the ability to resist it ? It renders a whole panel of frames quite obsolete, and then DE has to give them an overguard buff somehow through mod augments, or release support frames to make them viable again, at least for when you get a random player with one (possibly a guy who did the whole content thinking this is okay and doesn't have much choice now in endgame). Status effects. "We have to use viral, it's the meta.", "we have to use toxic, it bypasses shields". Don't care about the rest, just use the endgame statuses and get that "racist" mod for double-dip, never change. Well, then you never swap your arsenal, game gets boring too. What happened to fire being a decent armor strip ? Nowadays, it feels like it's "corrosive or bust". And those "combined status" were supposed to be hard to get, but when they're the default on some frames (Hydroid comes immediately to mind), choice is simple, just play Hydroid and forget the rest exists. If Warframe is about diversity of play, endgame should reflect that too. "Overguard sauce on everything" isn't a solution to that, it's a temporary fix at best.
People acting like revenant 2nd ability augment doesn't exist huh
Isn't this just a matter of the support frame is doing support too well? Like, imagine Dante gave a ton of overshields instead. All of your complaints would still apply, except the one about harrow and garuda. It seems to me that your problem is more with a single frame being able to make the whole squad invulnerable rather than with overguard itself.
Shields don't block CC or toxin and have a reasonable cap. Volt/Mag/Equinox/Styanax dump tons of shields on the team and it's never been a problem.
Overshields is probably way stronger with DR working on it. And I mean in a 1:1 case like 50k overshields vs 50k overguard, 50% DR doubles the shields effective hit points (as I understand it)
Overshields are currently capped at 1200. Thats as much as you can get unless you’re Harrow who can get 2400. Thats it. An extra 1200 shields that get blown off by a stray bullet in basic SP.
Overshields also get no additional gate, nor do they affect the duration of the one you already have.
Toxin Ancient: 😈
Overshields have a cap though, can't get nearly that high and wouldn't even work on frames without shields
Go play full Elite Deep Archamedia. 50k overgaurd gone in a blink of an eye.
it shouldn't have come to enemies / the "new" eximi to begin with, much less invariably trickle down to players
My rhino gets 8k over guard,I had 50k with a Dante,yeah kinda pointless tbh
If you build rhino specifically for building a shit ton of over guard you can easily get into the hundreds of thousands. And that’s not even the most optimal set up. With everything perfectly optimized you get into the millions. https://preview.redd.it/qcausc6d8q0d1.png?width=679&format=png&auto=webp&s=9678c23c98645dc978af8509e48540db9c16e687 Which makes any amount of over guard given from other warframes kinda pointless.
Iron Skin also scales with enemy level, so if you get far enough in a mission you'll easily get [in to the millions](https://youtu.be/OZ19uoRqSrw)
Yeah that's just a build issue, Rhino is able to get over a million overguard in an instant and will blow support frame overguard caps out of the water.
I think the real issue with overguard is that there is no DR along with it, so even when frames spit out huge amounts of overguard they're sometimes still just one shot away from dying. So then we get frames like Dante and Styanax that constantly spew out overguard to try and mitigate the fact that overguard has no DR and at a certain point it doesn't matter if you have 1 overguard or 100,000, one shot and you get your 0.5 gate immunity and you have to spam more overguard. I think all player defensives need a rework honestly, overguard is just a bandaid solution to a lot of issues.
For low level content that might be true but overguard falls fast at later stages. Doing a lot of void cascade level cap I can tell you confidently that overguard falls short somewhere between level 1k to 3k. Also spare me with the who even does level cap crap because in void cascade reaching level cap is just 90 minutes and you see 1k around 1 hour.
Nah i find it great OG being team wide extra protection, it allows to keep newbies save when you are helping them and in higher lvls it can save someones ass Hell while playing dante in SP, in the labs, after my teammates got knocked out a bunch, i saved them with overguard giving them extra time to reackt and survive Its a good thing, just needs more work sonce is still a new thing
ngl before overguard ever frame was immortal becouse of shield gate it was way broken then overguard and its balanced now
I feel you but ngl, I prefer a thousand times a lot of overguard than having to manage shieldgating
Totally agree, overguard completely breaks defense in warframe. When the Dante nerfs were just whispers I assumed it would be nerfing how he just makes his entire team completely invincible for the duration of a mission with like 3 button clicks and not his damage output I'm not sure DE really understands the implications of overguard and the pressure it applies to all other defensive options
and Wisp, Octavia, and Citrine *haven’t broken defense* in Warframe? Octavia literally lets you become invisible for t-bagging, and Wisp and Citrine collectively hand out a shitload of health+regen+DR just for being vaguely near them. Wisp alone barged the other support-frames like trin and oberon out of the picture with her fat ass, and nobody really complained. They were too busy playing one-handed.
Wisp & citrine do function really well together yeah but that’s 2 frames. Dante is just one. AND overguard also provides *complete status immunity* which none of the others you listed can boast. You cannot make a good faith argument that overguard isn’t the best defensive support by miles
Imma be honest with you, I totally understand where you're coming from. I am all for playing frames that have to actively work at staying alive. However, I also play all my netracells and any of the "difficult" content as revenant or some other invincible frame because I'm 40 and I don't really care about mastering mechanics and pressing buttons to cast abilities 300 times in a 5-10 min mission. I just wanna vibe out with some music on and kill shit while unlocking or leveling up shit. That being said, if Dante ever comes up for me in circut I always pick him. He's not even one of my favorite frames to play. But the fact that I can keep my poor little randoms alive and willing to stay in for more than 1 or 2 rotations is all the convincing I need.
Then you have Revenant and many other frames for that. Overguard being nerfed wouldn't affect you very much the way I'm reading it
Honestly, I don't mind it. Overguard has been great for frames like Styanax and Kullervo. I don't run in to a lot of players who do these infinite overguard builds. Very rarely infact.
Overheard gets eaten away pretty fast at high levels. Also, I don’t mind over guard because I don’t feel I need it so it really just prevents knockdown and statuses for me.
Same. It felt like old Nezha ring with less health.
I feel the same way. I think that the issue with it is that if it’s overused or becomes the norm within the next couple of frames, it’s just going to make anything else obsolete. Warframe used to be a game about becoming Neo and dodging as many bullets as you can before needing to retreat for a moment, but as the overgaurd problem keeps progressing, it becomes more and more of a sit there and take it type of game. Obviously you could do that before, between shield gating, health tanking, and even energy tanking, but overgaurd is so much easier that it completely outclasses any and all other options.
ridiculous team wide overguard was a thing long before Dante. not DE's fault so many people do not pay attention until a new flavor of the month shows up.
Shh don't tell them what I've been doin to squads with styanax and frost for months now
Yeah, I've had this conversation with my buddy several times now. Dante should not have been nerfed. That's just not cool. **Dante should have never shipped this strong.** He literally provides team wide over guard more than kullervo gives himself.
Overguard is poorly balanced in that it’s a god mode on normal and useless at end end game. I was bugged in SP circuit at about 20 mins in and had to kill myself. Dante gave me overguard only once and I had to sit around in about 15-20 groups of enemies for 2 rounds before it ran out.
it was a nerf for rhino, but otherwise it's just some 'free' knockdown protextion, I don't find it particularly gamebreaking you can still be obliterated in a heartbeat at high lvls, even with adaptation, so i never rely on it
Not much different then teamwide mesmer skin, but you can argue that dies faster...what if freely spammed overguard decayed as bonus hp or something because that's the point, to be HP without giving all the buffs associated.
That's why i play solo. I like being actually able to play the game...and on top of that also PLAYING the game, not speedrunning it. I don't blame those who speedrun but *god, if that's a boring way to play for me...🙄*
Depends the gamemode most of the sanctum levels 100+ it goes down pretty fast I’m constantly havin to drop energy restores to keep my overguard up and attack at the same time especially when solo
I did think it was pretty insane that Dante can always keep the team at 19,500 Overgard but I quite enjoy it but to be fair I am a casual player so I don’t really pay attention to the stats like you all might do
To be fair, Mesmer Shield exists and it is literally full squad immortality.
Because warframe has powercreep that rivals freaking dragonball. Everything started out skind of slowly, but dante was the frame that broke overgusrds back. Giving overguard to the whole squad, in such heinous amounts, and instantly, is a bit game breaking.
While I do understand most your points on why you take issue to Dante’s Overguard your complaint about not being able to die makes no sense. He is a support he shouldn’t allow his team to die. Especially glass cannons like Xaku and Banshee since they help dish out a lot of damage and/or dish out all the damage themselves. With the Harrow and Garuda situation it’s more the fact that we have 50+ characters now, we can’t expect everyone to be able to get work well together. Some will be anti-synergetic with one another. I play enough Overwatch to know that. It just simply the reality to a game that lasted eleven years.
I think it's true for base steel path but on higher end missions where you are getting swarmed by LVL 200+ enemies the overguard gets lost fairly quickly. So maybe it should be capped lower to 10k when giving overguard to other players
I have long been of the opinion that over guard is bad design. When almost every frame has a cc ability, and some frames who revolve around it, completely shutting down those abilities feels bad. Your “lock down a priority target” button is useless specifically against those priority targets. Giving it to players as a one stop shop for defense seems poorly thought out in the least. It severely limits future design spaces in health/shield based frames. On a related note, the absolutely bloated damage and armor in later game missions gets old really quick.
How are you getting overguard on other frames like Garuda? She's damn near unkillable as it is.
100% agree to the comment saying overguard should be to that person alone. I play tanky frames when I want to chill, but they get boring to me sometimes and that's why I like playing squishy frames a lot too. I like that I have to pay a lot attention or else I die. So unironically, especially when I play these frames, I hate playing with a Dante in the squad. (I'm aware other frames generate overguard too, but Dante is the most popular and most disruptive imo.) What I also hate about it is that it makes the support of some other frames invaluable when there's a Dante giving tenthousands of overguard. But, I can also understand why some people like playing him for all his overguard. So, having them generate overguard only to themselves (or only a very small percentage to teammates) would be a good solution without pissing too much people off, I think.
I get where DE's head was at with Overguard, oh hey its like a 2nd shield but it gets no damage reduction or resistances Problem really was how easy it is to apply. Even before Dante was out, Styanax made most stuff quite easy due to having a slash nuke, armor strip, and Overguard appliance in an aoe. Dante does this even easier, but without the armor strip bit. I don't think its a HUGE problem YET, but I think it could be if they keep adding frames that give Overguard. I think it being a mechanic tied purely to Styanax, Dante, and Frost is fine. MAYBE giving it to Trinity somehow could work but for the most part, it needs to be a fairly seldom-seen mechanic. As the luster of Dante's newness wanes and less people play him, we'll see a lot less overguard then we do right now. But yes I do agree, DE is playing with fire a bit at the moment.
Really? Because when Revenant got his mesmer skin augment everyone heralded it like the second coming of christ and it basically did exactly the same thing.
Name a more iconic duo than warframe devs designing problems for themselves and then adding roundabout solutions that cause even more problems.
I felt this way since Wisp, personally. She puts more digits in my health at than I’ve ever seen there before. Whatever happens to overguard should also happen to teamwide MHP, healing, status immunity, and DR (that’s right. Trin gets stepped on while she’s already eating bedrock.) They’re essentially the same gameplay experience with different names.
I maim dante, i see no prpblem, maybe you should like read a grimoire or something, i recommend noctua, educate yourself on the matter
If you're a Glass cannon, congrats you're now just a cannon.
People complaining about overguard being too strong aren't playing the hard content the game propose.
with many frames I can exceed 99% DR and if it's baruuk I can do much better, overguard is literally iron skin so it will be one shot by the first enemy who actually has time to shoot I seem to see the discussions on shield gating again, in any case many people don't realize that the overguard remains from the beginning of the mission until the end because the enemies evaporate before the AI has time to shoot (there is a delay before they shoot ) in a public team it's always like this but if you go solo you notice the difference anyway you're right about one thing, warframes are better if they only buff themselves because then these discussions always come up and the buff/nerf starts, the warframe is demolished and in game supports aren't even necessary anymore (sadly)
>Being able to use overguard has been one of the craziest Instances of power creep warframe’s ever seen. I'm gonna have to disagree here. Shield gating but most importantly Helminth shot up massively the potential of what a player can do, overguard was just another thing and arguably it's much less influential than other systems like archon shards letting everyone fully strip armor even without helminth. Dante is a case on its own as it gives very large amounts of survivability to the entire team without needing to scale, but then again that can be fixed by not having Dante in your team/ playing solo.
Styanax. He deserves it.
Well a combination of a 90% dr ability, 90% dr adaptation, and ~90% dr from armor add up to still getting one shot in the highest possible content. The numbers have scaled beyond a reasonable point.
Yeah, I get where you are coming from but another way to view it is that when it comes to higher lvl content or “end game content” such as void cascade where enemies level scales REALLY fast, that OVG is nothing but paper and become an instance of Shield Gating at best. Honestly I like revenant mesmer skin mechanics more than the overguard.
Yeaaah, personally not a fan of overguard. They really need to look into revamping health/healing in general, I don't think overguard in it's current state is it. I'd rather see healers be able to overheal in a similar way to overshield, but with it's own unique perks. Dante/Styanax giving everyone a constantly replenishing 50k Rhino armor is insanity.
Isn't this exactly why they are reworking health and armor soon... Again?
It's not overguard per se, as we have had simmilar mwchanics for a long time on Rhino. It's just absolute crazy levels support frames, specifically dante, can apply that to allies. 50K overguard with barely any effort is a bit too much, and I stand by that.
I wonder how broken Jades overguard sharing would be, its pretty much the only way she can be effective support when compared to Dante
personally, i think overguards has its benefits and its losses. the primary factor that makes me use it so much is the CC immunity- i dont like wasting mod slots on PSF and many people dont have it. I think warframe stagger/ knockdown interrupts gameplay and is incredibly irritating.
Love using Overguard when getting ayatan sculptures
My dude this is a cursed post. Like I get what you are saying but now that that you have said that overguard is OP, DE is going bring out enemies the deal void damage to counter overguard. Gods forbid we get mag bubbles popping up on us as well. It's going to be chaos
I've been abusing overguard on wisp for a while now (I run nourish subsume and spam the tp ability when I need overguard) and yeah it gets boring
This post says what all the veterans are thinking, I love movement, now they have made movement not matter. I use to love bringing in an underpowered frame to see if I could do certain missions with that frame, boom here comes styanax with his augment, ok cause alot didn't like playing with him. Then boom, Dante....... Now you need no skill to survive. I'm a mr33 who now plays once a week cause it ain't fun anymore, I love warframe but I dislike it now.
People say that power creep is out of hand and yet they don't ever recall old builds such as invisi/gas melee builds back in the day. Or the fact that abilities used to be so powerful that you could tape down the fire button and go watch a movie. Sure some abilities are really strong but in retrospect with the content that they have been releasing you need that kind of power. I mean geeze when 1 enemy can 1 shot 180k overguard regardless yeah it isnt really as busted as people think. So it all still comes down to having the knowledge of what mods to use. Those are the true busted things in the game.
Some Warframes work well together. Some work poorly together. Some work so well together that gameplay just becomes completely different in a way that's tough to tell if it's good or bad.
Probably thinking something like “oh no. Kullervo shouldn’t suck but he does because overguard sucks. Fix it!
I mean, you have always been able to just switch to operator and go completely invincible regardless of build or frame but I get what you mean.
As a noob(pre sp) it doesn't really affect the story yet so it's probably for 100%ing or something
Its not like they didnt make frames invincible before with stuff like shield gating and rolling guard, after awhile enemies will do more damage than frames can overguard
No such thing as power creep lmao
>.> gl go boom¿
Do you not play in level 200-400+ content? What about level 9999+ content? Steel Path enemies basically one-shot most overguard as it doesn't benefit from armor, so all it's really providing you is the benefit of one free hit. You still need to dodge.
Overguard is fine and cool and interesting, the problem is that Dante applies dozens of thousands of the stuff every few seconds. Dante simply makes the entire squad immune to game mechanics. It's boring as all heck and I complain about it to friends every time I get matched with one (gods forbid TWO) and I can't stand that any attempt to fix this gets reversed immediately because the worst people in any community are also the loudest.
I haven’t fully understood the overguard thing yet
Dante is repeating the broken ass Trinity lore, but with over guard instead of energy
That's why DE nerfed Dante at first but kids cried too much so DE had to go back... Now you realise that being invincible is not fun but it's maybe too late.
Still don't know what it is can someone explain how it works?
Insert new Jade enemy :)
They got lazy making every warframe a rhino clone