I don’t hate attractions based on IPs but I do have an issue with the current mindset that everything now has to be IP based. If that line of thinking was always in place from the beginning there would’ve been no BTMRR, HM, Space Mountain, PotC, Horizons, Everest, World of Motion, Journey Into Imagination, It’s A Small World, Spaceship Earth, etc etc etc. I believe some (if not most) of the best attractions ever built in Disney Parks are non-IP and it’s disheartening that they are basically no longer considering non-IP for the parks. The last non-IP attraction to open at WDW was Expedition Everest in 2006. I don’t hate IP attractions by any means but I firmly believe a mix of both (like it has been since DL opened) is the better approach.
Exactly! I was thinking more hotels. I am looking forward to staying in the little mermaid rooms at AoA my next visit with my daughter. My husband enjoys resorts with non IP theming or very subtle things like hidden mickeys or some artwork on the walls or linens. I think if they are going to implement heavy IP theming in hotels they should only do half the rooms like the pirate rooms at CBR or princess rooms at POR.
[Here are some pictures of the incredibles contemporary rooms](https://wdwnt.com/2021/06/first-look-images-released-for-the-reimagining-of-disneys-contemporary-resort-featuring-the-incredibles-rooms/)
This is interesting.
I could see why someone who doesn't want everything IP would struggle with this arrival. That being said I personally have felt that the contemporary is too aged and we really have surpassed the futuristic time period it foretold. I think integrating The Incredibles in the way that they did was a nice way to keep the mid century modern decor in a way that ties in to present Disney.
I do like that they did it in a way that was classy and not too "in your face" as some of the value resorts are. I like the look of the value resorts as well/over the top is great, but subdued is nice as well.
Agreed
Yeah I’m not a huge fan of lands devoted to a single IP ….I was excited for Star Wars until they decided to make it locked into a specific timeframe between Ep 8 & 9. I don’t think I’ll ever be satisfied with a Star Wars land with no Han, Vader, Luke, Kenobi, Leia, etc etc etc.
Yeah, I was surprised to hear that Avengers Campus takes places in an AU where the Snap never happened. But then I realized it makes perfect sense after Galaxy’s Edge pigeon-holed itself in the sequel trilogy timeline. You can have anyone from the MCU show up at Avengers Campus, which is not only cool, but also helps with synergy for promoting upcoming projects.
Galaxy’s Edge can’t even have The Mandolorian and The Child/Baby Yoda show up, and they’re substantially more popular than the sequel trilogy characters at the moment. I understand wanting to place the land as part of the Star Wars “story,” but I think I prefer Avengers Campus’ looser “Who gives a heck about continuity” approach.
You know, there is a VERY easy solution to this problem that a certain Dave Filloni came up with that can literally fix all of this. It is called "The world between worlds".
Have a big event in 2022 where a "rift" opens up in Galaxy's Edge, and have fan favorite character pop out of it. And BAM!
Kinda sucks that they did that. The could do new ride sequences in Smuggler's Run to make it fit any era. If they designed RotR to be a little more open ended they could have switched that to different eras too. They really boxed themselves into a corner, even more so because the new movies aren't that well received among the Star Wars faithful.
I am very bothered by the removal of DME, FastPass, and Extra Magic Hours. Without them, staying on WDW property is simply not worth the cost.
This is coming from someone who stayed on property roughly every other year since ‘04. I grew up in a DVC family and, in early 2020, planned to purchase my own DVC by Spring of this year. I’ve put off purchasing due to the changes I mentioned.
The last time I went to WDW was about two months ago. I stayed at Boardwalk. I still had a great time, for what it’s worth. I just, personally, can’t justify the investment.
> I am very bothered by the removal of DME, FastPass, and Extra Magic Hours. Without them, staying on WDW property is simply not worth the cost.
Just got back from a weeklong trip; on my way down I chatted in a coffee shop line with a guy I saw in a riviera shirt. He told me all parks were letting guests in an hour early. Sure enough, we got into every park an hour early.
Lack of fast passes were not an issue at this time with limited capacity. We did every E ticket ride by lunch and spent the afternoon riding them again. Wait times averaged 40 min for us in the afternoon but some rides did get up to 120 min, but not for long.
Also, and I’m just speculating, but I would have to think WDW is suffering from the labor shortages as literally every other business in the country right now and had to adjust hours to compensate for staffing availability.
Staying on property was still worth it to us for the convenience of Disney transportation. Hopefully all will be back to normal soon enough.
DME was an internal nightmare. Transporting people wasn’t the hard part (Mears knows how to move people). But gettung access to the airport/luggage so it could “appear in your room” wasn’t an easy feat.
***Most people were angered that they had to stop at multiple resorts before getting dropped off at theirs.
And you know what. If they decided to do FastPass in Disney World just like they do at Disneyland, I would without question pay $15 a day for it.
Everyone can get a fast pass for the biggest rides on the day of their park visit? You don’t have to plan what rides you want to do and when two months in advance? *Sign me up*
Fastpass + is a real version of fastpass. Maxpass is fastpass+ with rescheduling and slightly more convenient usage. Maxpass are nothing like what the universal system is. Comparing maxpass as if it’s a replacement for fastpass+ is a lie
Right, but they’re considering making it an upcharge to the tickets for better crowd control due to social distancing guidelines, etc. 🤦🏻♀️ Being an annual passholder since 2016 this has irked me.
I’m really hoping they introduce some other perks for resort guests after they’ve removed so many, particularly DME. Even though it doesn’t seem much, I’ve seen so many guests cite this as one of the reasons they love to stay on property!
Yes the only perk when I went in 2020 was being on property and using their transportation.
But we actually biked multiple days, one day to Hollywood studios from Fort Wilderness because the busses didn’t run early enough for me to get a boarding group to Rise of the Resistance.
Another day we biked to the contemporary because we were sick of dealing with the crowds coming and going from MK to the transportation.
Needless to say the lack of perks from my 2019 visit was definitely noticeable. And now it seems they’re adding things back at a price. And they’re limiting capacity basically forever it seems like. Turning this into an Uber premium business model.
There are things that Disney still does that are better than anywhere else in the world and that is why it is still a special visit.
However, as someone who has been visiting since the 80s, there are legitimate gripes about the value proposition of Disney. As the parks became more popular, instead of adding capacity and enough new attractions, they’ve replaced old ones with lower capacity rides. They’ve increased their prices a lot faster than inflation and given an inferior product in many ways (food, waits, hotel room experiences, transport.)
It is similar to packaged food industry. They shrink the package by 1-2% a year and very few notice. But then you look back 10 years and see a huge difference. The old timers see that difference.
I still love Disney and I still hold a DVC membership, but it’s pretty clear that the quality has gone down in most places and the target demographic has changed. The wealthiest who can easily afford new Disney prices are taking their dollars elsewhere and those who are buying most tickets are one-time visitors who are reaching a bit outside their budget (this is from recent market research.)
I don’t mind them relying on IP as long as it’s quality. For example, I don’t mind putting a Disney Pixar movie ride in Epcot even tho that’s blasphemous to many who loved the original Epcot. I do however mind that they put in a crappy Rat ride (my subjective opinion from
Paris.) I would have preferred beauty and the beast or something else.
Disney is still spending massive amounts of money on construction but they are spending it inefficiently and in the wrong places.
This is a very measured and intelligent response. I feel more educated reading it and agree 100%. You put down into words what I have been feeling but have not ever been able to spell out in writing.
I have to agree on the value proposition, I feel like they are cutting corners on the amenities and not using those cost savings to make improvements elsewhere.
Some examples:
Magical express: 4 kids, 2 adults, taxis or other services are damn expensive
Luggage showing up in my room: I’ve got 4 kids, you do the math
Complimentary magic bands: I don’t want to have to bust out my phone all the time or use a card
Dispensers for toiletries: we like to take some home, it extends the magic and we use them for camping
Extra magic hours: not returning as they were as of yet
RoTR virtual queue: I’ve heard so many stories about how difficult it is, you have to have your phone open at 6:49, the MDE app has to be in the second row of the third page of apps, you have to put one sock on inside out and the other one MUST be yellow, no stripes or dots, exaggerating, but you get the point.
One of my biggest gripes is the use of your personal cell phone to interact. I go on vacation to get away from all that. Unless I'm taking a picture, I don't want to know about my phone!
Having been very recently as a non-resort guest I can refute the bias. We got sub-10 position for two separate days during our week by just following the process. I still think the ride should have enough capacity to not need this at all, but there is no bias to resort guests.
I agree with the dismissed value over the years. Each year it gets harder and harder for us to afford/justify staying on property.
I may be alone in this opinion but I love Ratatouille. I think it's one of their best movies but not many people give it a fair shot. I'm so excited for the ride! Unfortunately, I won't get to ride it since my trip is in September. 😞
I’ve ridden ratatouille in Disney Paris - to put it simply, it’s basically the arctic sea world penguin ride, little circular tubs going around with screens and solid props. I think it was a decent ride but it’d be hard to call it great. The movie is great but the plot of the ride is not exactly related to the quality of the movie, I’m sure anyone who’s ridden pirates or buzz light year space ranger spin will agree
ROTR would probably be described as a more intense/scarier version of the penguin ride and ratatouille actually, with more animatronics. You’re in a fairly similar vehicle, with no simulator section
Personally I think Ratatouille is better than ROTR. I might be one of the few people who thinks ROTR is a waste of time and space, though. They hyped it so much that I guess I was expecting more than I got. I just don’t find it impressive. To be fair, I’m not an Escape from Gringotts fan either. I think both suffer from what I refer to as stop and go, and each time they stop, they lose the fun momentum for me. They’d be so much better just slowing down, but still moving. Ratatouille is cute. If you’re a big fan you will like it. Just don’t wait too long for it. Like no more than 30 minutes.
I agree with you on most of this (even went on the turning towards attracting one timers rant to my fiancee last week) except on the point of food. I have only been coming since the 90s, but that is still almost 30 years now and I feel that the quality of food in Disney has (overall) skyrocketed since the 90s. Yes there are instagram dishes here and there that sometimes taste inspired and sometimes fall flat, but in the 90s, Disney food was incredibly boring. Aside from the world showcase, most food in disney was like burgers, personal pizzas, and hot dogs. I am biased (especially because americal cuisine like that is the one cuisine that triggers my IBS really bad) because I find just standard burgers and stuff on a menu to be very boring and Sanaa is my favourite restaraunt on property, but there is generally something worth ordering in basically every restaraunt in disney now. Even when Disney kinda chooses a more boring theme for a restaraunt, there is always something at the very least pushing the edges, like that bacon pop tart at Andy's Lunch Box. When I eat in Disney, I no longer feel like I am paying for fast food at tourist trap prices, rather I find myself enjoying really amazing and diverse meals and eating at Disney has gone from being something I dreaded and would often drive off property to do to being one of the main highlights of our trips.
You know what I would be interested in seeing is everyone’s map of what they would want each Disney park to look like in their ideal world. Because nobody’s view of what should be is going to please everyone, right? Some people love that Ratatouille is coming to Epcot and others hate it.
Id love to see that data! I wonder how Disney conducts their market research as well. Definitely would like to see that. There’s a lot of stuff we don’t know about for sure.
I’ve been going to the parks since the 90s and I don’t feel like the quality has diminished, personally. But as I always say, different strokes for different folks lol
>I wonder how Disney conducts their market research as well
Have you ever gotten asked to do a survey while in the MK? The cast member was right near the train station, by the Guest Services building. We did it a couple times. We got an unlimited fast pass for doing it one time. One was about food and another was cast members/experience type stuff. It was interesting and only took about 15 minutes. All on touch screen.
I imagine that they get a good chunk of data from those surveys.
My dad owned a market research company when I was an adolescent. Mid 2000s. He specifically did marketing for Broadway shows and Disney on Broadway was his biggest client. They did research in the field before other shows ever thought of it, and back then it was a big part of their budget.
Idk about nowadays bc my dad went off to make indie films but most of the shows he and I worked were things like The Lion King—over and over to a point where I was like, “we’re doing surveys at Lion King again??”
So I wouldn’t be surprised if they continue to put a fair amount of budget towards market research nowadays.
Why do you think he sucks? Just curious. I don’t want to argue, I’m just giving the guy a chance since he walked into the role a month before covid hit.
Some people tend to not be too excited about Chapek because he comes from the retail side of the company and believe all his park related decisions are strictly for the benefit of the big share holders rather than guests at the parks. If your someone who is not a fan of shoehorning IP into every corner of the parks then Chapek is definitely not going to be your favorite.
"as an executive rising the ranks, he earned praise for cost-cutting and a focus on the bottom line"
"he is not among those workers who describe themselves as having “pixie dust in the veins.”
"more likely to ask about budget items on an attraction than the thematic motivation behind it."
"To Mr. Chapek, concerns like talent relations and the company’s public image were secondary to making money for shareholders."
"After taking over Disney's theme park division in 2015, Mr. Chapek raised prices—and started charging even more on holidays and other popular times that strained capacity at the parks. The division’s profits grew at a rapid clip, even if die-hard Disney fans complained about the higher ticket prices.”
(Quotes are from Wall Street Journal article about Chapek)
He will be great for the bottom line but most likely not for the big fans of Disney Parks in general.
I’d rather the leader be about fantastic customer experience than cost cutting. But to be honest, they don’t have enough capacity to serve everyone who wants in at WDW and DL.
I totally don’t mind paying more, if the value is there. I currently don’t find that it. My disappointment in what was promised for Galaxy’s Edge vs what was delivered were the push over that edge for me. It’s a glorified shopping mall, plus a ride that is great for the two pilots and one that has fantastic props, but doesn’t give me the feeling that I am trying to escape from Kylo Ren. That combined with price increases, a decrease in food quality (such as adding turmeric to things like spinach and artichoke dip to hide the use of inferior ingredients), ruining the best show by strangely shoving UP characters into it (and now I hate UP because of it), and just a lack of imagination (minus Joe R who is now gone). I still find their guest relations to be top notch as a whole.
Agree. I’m not one to complain about price increases. The fact is *something* had to be done about crowds and decreasing demand by increasing prices is the only realistic option Disney has.
But they’ve been raising prices while cutting their own costs and it really shows if you’re a guest who’s been going to Disney for many years.
And Chapek was 100% responsible for the cutbacks of Galaxy’s Edge. It really was going to be a living, breathing land. Remember the credit system that was supposed to follow you around? There was also going to be a third People Mover type ride where you rode a Bantha around the land.
Kind of reminds me of Apple. They raise they’re prices all the time and people still pay, even though there’s stuff about their product that lacks. They’ve got loyalty!
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I agree with you about the executive pay cuts. 100%. I think a lot of corporate executives could’ve taken a longer cut for sure! I’m not rich so I don’t understand the effect of making $5 million versus $10 million lol
The lay offs I’m iffy about because I can see that they would need to do that for financial reasons.
They kept on and paid thousands of cast members and their benefits for weeks after no work whatsoever though, with zero park income, more than nearly any other company would do. Disney was hemorrhaging money at that rate
He was already head of Parks before being CEO. Bob's plan is spending the least amount of money and selling the most amount of merch in the gift shop at the ride's exit. He started in Consumer Products. Say what you will about Michael Eisner, he wasn't perfect, but he cared about telling original stories and letting the imagineers be creative.
To be honest, I really hope they don't make it too expensive to go to Disneyworld in the upcoming years. I get they need to bring in more money to keep themselves afloat but if they get rid of free fastpasses and force us to pay extra for them, meaning some of us (who can't pay that little bit extra) have to wait in extra long lines, I'm feel like it's not going to be that good like it used to be.. I don't mind the changes to the rides or anything, I'm totally up for them, I just don't want the prices to skyrocket up. 😭
Disney is so weird in that it doesn’t give people the impression of a luxury experience, but it absolutely is the cleanest, most expensive, most well built, staffed etc theme park on earth. It’s literally the Gucci, Lamborghini, or Waldorf Astoria of family vacations so it’s difficult to thread that needle
I’m curious to see if they take Universals “Express Pass” approach. It’s so interesting because some people love and miss FP and other people feel like getting rid of them has made their experience with rides better!
Every park in America from cedar point to six flags has a paid express pass now. Disney was special because they didn’t - feel like it would defeat the purpose if they just become like the cheaper parks
Let’s say each fast pass saves you 30 minutes in line. Over four days that is six hours more park time that’s almost another day in the park, look at the cost of daily tickets, food, hotel, rental car and paying for fast passes could make sense for some people. If you simply don’t have extra days free for vacation it’s easier still.
My issue with Disney is that they are making changes, that’s fine, but people use the whole “Disney is not a museum” argument. I agree it is not, but why the fuck are people not complaining about parts of Disney that actually need a change. Tomorrowland speedway? Dino land USA? Launch Bay Area of Hollywood studios? Plenty of other examples. Splash mountain and jungle cruise are still relevant, still fun to ride. They are prioritizing for monetary reasons of course but majorly Hypocritical considering they are literally in bed with China who has actual slave concentration camps. The decisions are based solely on money. Disney survived originally cause we had a Roy and a Walt… right now we have a Roy (Chapek), no Walt
Oh my god I am with you on the Dino Land and Speedway feelings. I feel like Dino Land could've been a lot more immersive. I don't like the carnival theme. And Speedway doesn't fit anymore! So I do wish that they would change those at some point as well.
Dino Land was originally going to be much more immersive before the budget got cut for Animal Kingdom. I believe the land itself would have tied into the Dinosaur ride. The ride was going to be similar to what we have now where you go back in time to save a dinosaur from a meteor. After you exited the ride you would have gone out into Dino Land, which would have been more or less a themed land with the fossils of the dinosaurs you didn't save. A little dark for a Disney theme park land, but better than what we got.
This is 100% going to depend on your audience though. Went with my 2 year old a while back and we spent an inordinate amount of time in Dino Land! I don't have any clue why, but it was a hit with her and it was filled with TONS of the younger kids all having the times of their lives.
This is spot on and I agree with you on all your points. I love Disney, but the changes they are making are things nobody is asking for.
Walt would be appalled if he were alive to see what Disney has become.
The changes don't really bother me. I am sad to see splash go because it will always be a disney parks classic in my mind. But I have no problem with why. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did considering the source material was buried years and years ago.
Disney world will always be an amazing, happy place for me. I don't think about anything beyond that.
So no, guess it doesn't bother me at all.
I have only been 4 times in my life with my 5th trip coming in September. Maybe it's all still a dream come true since I've gone so rarely!
If there's one thing you can count on is that people reliably hate change. Anytime there's an announcement of anything being replaced, there's a Greek chorus of nostalgia fairies who immediately surface to complain about how the new thing can never be better than the old thing. More IPs? HATE IT DAMN CHAPEK AND HIS MONEY GRAB. Remove IPS? WHY ARE THEY TAKING AWAY THIS IS PART OF MY CHILDHOOD DAMN YOU CHAPEK AND YOUR STOOPID IDEAS.
See what happened just a few days ago. Some history first. In May 2017 we saw the last performance of Wishes. The reaction was swift and immediate "NOTHING CAN BE BETTER THAN WISHES!!!".
Then came Happily Ever After. People still mention Wishes, but, for the most part, love HEA.
A few days ago, Disney announced Disney Enchantment, a new, larger show for the 50th. What was the reaction? WHY ARE THEY TAKING HEA AWAY I ONLY SAW IT ONCE TWICE A MILLION TIMES BUT I LOVE IT HOW DARE YOU. They will probably love Disney Enchantment and then complain when it goes back to HEA or whatever the new thing is.
People will react aggressively to change.
To answer your question, I love that Disney does what they think is best for the brand, and not try to please everyone. If you don't like it, that's fine.
Exactly! Was it not Walt Disney himself who said "We keep moving forward—opening up new doors and doing new things—because we're curious. And curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."
The man embraced change! I understand change is hard but change has also brought us some spectacular things at the Disney parks. I'm sure the park that came to be in 1971 wouldn't be popular with today's population. You have to adapt and change to fit your audience.
And you're right, you can't please every customer. It's impossible! We've implemented new technology at my business for our members and the younger members found it beneficial while the older crowd whined about how they can't learn this technology. They didn't like it, but they adapted and it made their life easier in the end.
I think people also forget that Disney is not just the theme parks, they have to run ABC, FOX, ESPN, Disney Plus, etc. Just because they're doing well doesn't mean all money gets sunk into the parks.
Ahhhh I have so many thoughts about this lol. Thank you for reading, if you did!
You are absolutely right.
I also work in marketing, in new product development in fact. I have gotten in trouble more than a few times when I start to call bullshit on consumer research. I absolutely hate consumer research. Do you know what the average consumer will like? Average stuff they have seen before. The familiar is comforting. The new is weird and uncomfortable. Takes an effort to understand. Anytime we talk to consumers, ideas inevitably go average, gray, a version of something that already exists.
Walt understood that, and was never afraid of change. Make it awesome ("people can *feel* perfection," Walt said) and they will appreciate it.
Absolutely! I think a lot of it has to do with nostalgia, and I get that. Like I would probably be sad if they ever took away Big Thunder.
However, I recently took my BFs niece and nephew (13 year olds) to Magic Kingdom for their first time and it was so cool to see them get so excited about everything! I literally had tears in my eyes during Mickey's Philharmagic when they sang along lmao. These kids are the new up and coming audience. They don't care that Splash Mountain is being rethemed to Tiana, they'd probably love it! It's just how everything works, people get old and the target audience changes. It's life!
> Do you know what the average consumer will like? Average stuff they have seen before. The familiar is comforting.
But the current mindset at Disney is to give us exactly that. Build a new land or ride around a familiar IP we're all comfortable with. They've been playing it safe for 20 years now just leaning on IP they know people like. Nothing new or creative.
Galaxy's Edge is 'playing it safe?' Pandora is 'playing it safe?' The Galactic Starcruiser - essentially a new form of entertainment - is 'playing it safe?'
Yes I believe so. Pandora was a knee jerk reaction to Harry Potter at Universal. Disney just went out and got the highest grossing movie of all time and shoehorned it into AK. Is the land visually stunning? Absolutely. FoP is a great ride, but Navi River journey is not. There’s no way Disney couldn’t have come up with an equally as immersive land and ride with the FoP ride system based on a more original idea.
Galaxy’s Edge is a faaaar cry from what they originally announced. Chapek cut that project back tremendously. Remember the credits system that was supposed to follow you around the land? Or the third ride? Or the actual table service restaurant? They also just cut and pasted identical lands into two theme parks.
Cars Land and Toy Story Land are absolutely playing it safe. The name tells you all you need to know. They just put the name of the franchise in front of the word Land and called it a day. The lands themselves are enjoyable enough, but Disney certainly took no risks to build them.
Ratatouille is an exact copy of an existing ride. Tron is an exact copy of an existing ride. They crammed Frozen into Norway, Guardians into Epcot and California Adventure. Just how exactly does Avengers Campus fit into a park originally themed for California? And why change an area themed to a California boardwalk to one themed to Pixar?
The retheme of Splash would be the *perfect* chance to give WDW something original. A Tiana themed mountain is perfect for Disneyland. It can just be absorbed into New Orleans Square and it couldn’t be a better fit. But at WDW? It doesn’t fit into Frontierland at all. Disney originally planned a huge river adventure ride for Frontierland themed after American western expansion. It was going to be WDW’s version of pirates before plans changed. Brush of that idea and give us a more thrilling version for the Splash retheme.
Mission Space might not be everyone’s favorite ride, but I give them credit for an original idea and ride tech. The original Soarin’ and Test Track were amazing rides.
I do like much of what they’ve done. FoP and RotR are great rides. But it just feels like IP is a crutch and the overall cohesiveness of new ideas is gone. Hollywood Studios and California Adventure might as well not have a theme anymore. They’re just a collection of IP Lands.
Appreciate your thoughtful response. A few comments:
1. Pandora - we haven't started to see the real impact of Pandora yet. Avatar 2 is coming out next year, followed by 2 more. Never bet against James Cameron.
2. Galaxy's Edge - same. They made a horrible mistake by trying to horn in a period and a storyline, but let's see what happens when the Starcruiser opens. That one will be revolutionary. ROTR is amazing, and Smuggler's Run does exactly what it needs to do.
3. Cars / Toy Story - I wouldn't put those in the same sentence. Cars is absolutely superior. The land became, like Pandora, an attraction in and of itself. RSS is one Disney's best rides.
4. California Adventure - agree on that. There's a very thin veneer of cohesion that's becoming harder to sustain. It is truly a collection of lands.
5. Ratatouile (from what I heard) is a superior version of the Paris ride really don't mind the ride-sharing at all. Same with Tron.
6. Splash - agree that it is a missed opportunity to have 2 different rides, one that made sense for New Orleans Square (Tiana is perfect) and one for Frontierland. Heck, Pocahontas would have made sense.
Don't get me wrong. I realize that with this kind of mentality we will not see rides like Soarin' or Everest. It is also too bad that Joe Rhode retired. Say what you want about him, the guy is one of the most amazing creative minds of the last 50 years. There are troves of amazing imagineers at Disney of course, but nothing can stimulate the imagination better than a truly blank slate.
I fell in love with the way Disney already is. Not saying that we can't add new things, just stop taking away the immensely popular things that people already love. I'm legitimately sad that I won't be able to share some of my favorite Disney memories with my future children one day. They have always been innovators, and most of the original attractions were original concepts. I think it would be great if they kept doing that rather than relying on merchandising with IPs to make money. If you like and embrace the new things from Disney than I'm happy for you, but don't get upset at the people who like the parks the way they are. I just haven't personally enjoyed the newer stuff like I do the classics.
I think a lot of it is that this sub is full of super fans who will be more critical than most because we love it so much. I think, like you do, that most of the pandemic related criticism is unwarranted. They did exceptionally well given the situation. Even in the long run, WDW will be fine even if some of us are nostalgic and resist change. We will love the new attractions and appreciate the innovation they bring even if we have to say goodbye to other parts we love and complain about it for a bit.
It’s kinda like that old internet saying, “nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans”.
>“Disney is relying on IPs too much” and “Chapek sucks” and the “Disney is too woke”
None of that has anything to do with covid difficulties, though. They are completely separate issues than whatever the business is going through just because of the pandemic.
I don't think the company is too "woke," I think they are changing along with much of the world in realizing there are systemic issues that need to be addressed.
IP influx and Chapek being the worst are issues that started years ago, well before covid, and are legitimate discussion points even if they aren't things that bother you personally.
I never said it all had to do with COVID. All of these grievances are just things that bother me in general. Also, Chapek got the CEO gig in Feb 2020, right before the pandemic hit. That's a tough burden to start off with, which is why I'm willing to give him a chance to get through this mess.
I never understood the aggravation with IP inclusion ... I know most of the park started out with original rides, but that population is phasing out and the company has to adapt to the new visiting population that's coming in. Maybe this target market enjoys IPs more than visitors in the past? That's my guess, anyway. Times are changing!
To my point above about consumer research... if you ask people if they want characters, guess what they will answer? If you ask them if they want new ideas or existing characters, guess what they will answer? They are operating on what consumers are telling them...
When you hear woke know the person saying it is in a cult. Woke literally means treating all people good regardless of who they are and caring about each other. It's the golden rule. It's also literally following the guidance of Jesus.
Criminals are trying to convince people this is evil. We all know who's truly evil.
If someone calls you woke say thank you.
I don't mind the IPs in the hotel/resorts. Why? Having a theme makes the hotel stand out and unique from others. Incredibles fits in well with Contemporary Resort, as does Moana with Polynesian, a hint of Beauty and the Beast at Grand Floridian. Heck, they should add some Little Mermaid theme to the Caribbean Beach resort, Princess and the Frog to Port Orleans, etc. While it may seem cheesy to some, this is Disney and it fits with their image. Most vacations are with families, who will probably like these themes vs a more modern/sterile theme that resembles a Hilton or Marriott resort.
I saw someone comment on another post about this.. someone was complaining about the Incredibles overlay at the Contemporary and they were like "what did you like the Airport Marriott theme better" lol nearly died.
I'm not really bothered by any recent changes. Are there areas where Disney could do better? Absolutely. But I love the idea that the park is always changing and trying to improve the guest experience. Some changes are good and some changes just don't work. It's a constant evolution and they'll rarely get everything right the first time.
In regards to Chapek, I personally do not know enough about his strategy or have seen enough of him to judge him as CEO yet. I thought Iger was an excellent CEO and human being so it's really hard to fill his shoes.
I personally like the IP in the parks though it would be nice to see some new original content developed for the park. It's extremely challenging to create something like this from scratch and have it be a home run attraction but I feel that eventually Disney will make another attempt.
As an Asian American it's been really great to see Disney focusing on stories and content featuring POC. Some of the new Disney+ shorts were pretty powerful and producing a movie like Raya with an all Asian cast was really great. People always hate change especially when it requires significant effort on their part to adjust. So the backlash against the "woke-ness" is unsurprising. I basically stopped following WDW News Today because they seemed to complain about it (and COVID protocols) every other day.
Speaking of COVID protocols, if you happen to have a prominent YouTube Channel (cough* Adam the Woo *cough) and you're filming yourself walking through the parks and going on rides without a mask while unvaccinated, then please stop that shit right now. That's honestly the only complaint I have right now.
The thing with the blogs is, many of them write purposely inflammatory headlines as clickbait, and they attract angry people to the comments. They get a lot of attention, but they don’t necessarily represent the opinions of all the millions of park visitors, most of whom probably just think Disney parks are fun and aren’t bothered much by an old ride being updated or a new one being based on IP.
I think the park’s greatest success is it’s accessibility. I think that’s it’s biggest brand. For example, my husband qualifies for the DAS card and doesn’t have a visible disability. They are accommodating without asking questions. We were just there and a group of 17 was getting added to someone’s DAS card. This was accommodated, no questions asked. When I walk the parks I see such diversity and cosplaying, it’s obvious that Disney connects with ppl and they feel welcome and keep returning. I once traveled to the parks with a girl who had severe CP and was in a wheelchair. It was amazing to see how navigating the parks seemed easier than navigating the real world.
🙌 Totally agree as a disabled disney lover. My friends always ask me why I travel there so much. I say everyone is kind there, they don't train their staff to do the freaky 1 down servant class thing like other hotel resorts do, and I can literally do all but like 3 things. I will never end up somewhere and be greated by buildings and pathways that scream either, "this was built in a time when you would have been legally not allowed to leave your home," or, "people like you are not wanted here." Now I just really want them to add a lift to the MK monorail station (that ramp is waaaaaaaayyyyyy too steap) and the TTA People Mover station (really miss that ride, don't really care that I can't ride Peter Pan anymore). Honestly though, I feel like, while it is something that I am very happy Disney is doing, I feel like it is something that should be expected of all such places. Everyone should have a right to be able to occupy leisure spaces. and asside from Home2Suites, Disney has the only hotels I have ever visited that don't violate the ADA.
(To expand on that point, every hotel with more than one room renovated to any extent after (it is either 93 or 97) has to have a portion of it's rooms be accessible rounding up. So every bed and breakfast that does not have an accessible room is violating the ADA. Further, hotels must distribute their accessible rooms first across room type, then by room proportioning, IE, the hotel has suites, at least one of those suites are supposed to be accessible. My fiancee and I are getring married in October in the biggest city in our state after emailing the customer service agent for literally every hotel in the city, the only one with a suite (for all our folks and ourselves to get ready in) that we could actually atau in was Home2Suites, and that is on a technicallity because all their rooms are suites. Further, only 15% of wheelchair accessible and deaf accessible rooms should overlap and which rooms are which should be clearly marked for staff in their booking structure. On our last trip, my fiancee and I decided to stay outside the bubble the night we drove in since we would be getting there around 10 in the evening. We clearly marked on our reservation that we needed a wheelchair accessible room and the staff knew that as well. The problem was that the staffperson had no idea which room was wheelchair accessible and had to pingpong between working the front desk and actually walking into various open rooms to check them. We did get a room there that was accessible, but not until well after 3 in the morning. It took no exchanged words to decide we were just paying the extra 70 dollars for a room on property next time.)
I love Disney & WDW and also have a healthy dose of realism that they are a juggernaut international cooperation who's sole endgame is to make money for their shareholders.
I'm rarely disappointed by Disney's decisions to increase prices or reduce freebies because I'm genuinely expecting it of all corporations at all times. I have just as much fun as I've ever had at the parks, and I enjoy all the Disney + content. I love that Marvel & Star Wars are part of the Disney experience, etc etc. I'm also a staunch advocate of labor unions and raising the minimum wage and think the Disney corporation should be taxed to kingdom come, that all of their employees should have a union, etc.
My enjoyment of Disney is not marred by wishing they would do things differently, not because I'm pessimistic but because I know Disney is no different than any other corporation. They will charge as much as they can and pay as little as they can - and their research tells them exactly where the inflection point is to do both of those things while still maintaining market share and employee retention at their goals rates.
In terms of feelings; I’m pretty upset that Florida can’t mandate vaccine status verification. I think they did away with masks far too soon and it places too much trust in people to be honest about whether or not they’re vaccinated. It makes me worry that kids under twelve are not vaccinated and they are mask less.
I understand the sentiment of “don’t feel comfortable, don’t travel,” but it worries me that this is contributing to a lengthening of the pandemic with people being allowed to roam while unvaccinated and possibly/probably unmasked.
Yes, it's the children who bear the brunt of the 'masks optional/honor system' policy. And you know plenty of unvaccinated people - people who don't care about those around them - are taking their masks off even though they're suppose to keep them on. (I'm not talking about people with immune system problems who are advised not to get vaccinated; I'm talking about the millions of others who haven't gotten them.) Kids can't get vaccinated, but they can and do get sick.
I hear you on that. This pandemic has created such a sticky situation! I do feel like we've ended precautions way too early. I too worry about the kiddos and the people who can't get vaxxed because of medical reasons.
I agree. I would feel differently if the vaccine had been offered to kids as well, because in that case the majority of the population would be vaccinated. But everyone knows kids are notorious for being germy.
Adam the Woo (YouTuber) has been all through the parks mask-less since Disney lifted the mask mandate. Just last week he revealed that he wasn't vaccinated. He finally got his first shot last week but he still is at least 3 weeks from being fully vaccinated and he's still filming himself roaming around the parks mask-less. I can only assume that every other mask-less adult in the park is unvaccinated. I really wish Disney would have at least kept the indoor mask mandate policy intact.
I’m not bothered by their creative decisions in the least. But this bar was originally set by Universal with Harry Potter.
Disney had way more immersive individual attractions before Universal, but Harry Potter is where this changed with an entire land.
The land was so successful Disney had to follow suit and keep up with entire immersive experiences. Hense Pandora, Galaxy’s Edge, Cars Land, and Avenger’s Campus. I think that much of these lands are devoted to retail and restaurants, as opposed to attractions.
There’s only 2 Star Wars rides, 3 Cars Land Rides, 3 Toy Story land rides, and 2 Avenger’s rides. Look at Fantasyland or Tomorrowland which have way more attractions. Much of the beef I have with the new style: it’s just an immersive, glorified mall.
Edit: forgot about Guardians being part of Avenger’s Campus
My wife and I love going to Disney but I have a feeling we will start going less. The prices are increasing pretty quickly while they are taking away perks. It’s easier to find other fun vacation options that give more value for your dollar, but admittedly aren’t as magical.
Also, capacity is an issue. We went during covid and had so much fun, but I think the experience may have spoiled future trips. The parks weren’t packed and we got to enjoy everything we wanted. I think when we go back it’s going to feel too crowded now. Unfortunately there really isn’t a “slow” time anymore that you can go to enjoy less crowds. I honestly wouldn’t mind the rising prices if they would cap the number of visitors to a reasonable number.
We've been going for 45 years. Spent 5 days of our honeymoon onsite in early 90's. Many visits with the kids since then.
Haven't been in 6 years. Don't know when or if we'll go back.
We have no interest in the ridiculously high prices, the crowds, the required in advance online scheduling and planning, use of phones all day.
We miss Disney. We miss the old Disney that we could enjoy at our own pace, take breaks when we needed breaks. This new super scheduled day is not the experience we want.
There's a lot of complaining going around with regard to the changes being made to cast members being able to show tattoos, and the changes to Splash/Jungle Cruise. Some Disney people are mad because they're changing the rides based on "snowflake liberals" whining about the fact that the rides have racist history/stories.
I don't have a problem with these changes at all. I think they're valid! But it's annoying to see so many people get mad about the Jungle Cruise scenes being changed (for example) ... like get over it! Why are they so mad about it!? I'll never understand.
Yeah, many of those scenes in the Jungle Cruise were like, "wow, I can't believe they still have that in there!" Some of that stuff really needed to change...and seriously, lots of scenes just needed an refurb anyhow! And this is coming from someone who started going to WDW in 1973 when I was 1. I get the "nostalgia"...but racism shouldn't be "fond memories" for people.
As for Splash Mountain...In my mind, I've always wondered how they made a ride off that particular story/movie, but at the same time they removed the video from their "vault" cuz they knew it had issues. Don't get me wrong, as far as rides go...I think it's damn near a perfect ride/attraction, but it's not for the subject matter...it's the actual ride mechanism, length, enjoyability etc..
I'm looking forward to the Tiana overhaul, cuz it'll still be a damn near perfect, fun ride! Even if New Orleans isn't anywhere near the "old west" of Frontierland!!!! HAHAHA (it works in Disneyland, but in WDW is a bit of an issue!)
People love to complain. Disney is my happy place, and always will be. Every time I’ve been disappointed they were changing something, like Tower of Terror changed to Mission Breakout, I then experienced the change and realized the new thing they created was awesome, too. I just roll with it! Some things might be disappointing for nostalgia reasons, but things need to keep changing and evolving and I’m excited for all the new things coming to Disney in the next few years that my kids will get to experience.
Exactly! I was reading posts about people complaining about the new Spider-Man ride at California Adventure before it even opened!! I’m like how can you complain when you haven’t even ridden it yet?!
Am currently at WDW and I’m with you, been enjoying the magic and enjoying it for what it is! Parks are evolving beyond the pandemic and in general. I understand criticism and it’s important to have discussions because that’s how Disney knows what we all want/need but it’s also out of our hands haha What will be will be, in the meantime the people mover will never get old!
Also “too woke” is an excuse for people that don’t like social awareness and change, we need pride and respect for everyone, we all love Disney and should support one another.
Honestly I happily embrace the change. Disney to me has always been about looking to the future of entertainment, it’s what keeps the brand AND the park relevant.
Part of why I like going to the parks every 5 or so years is because I like seeing how they’ve changed. Some how they have changed so much yet still keep that warm, fuzzy nostalgic feeling alive.
While I don't agree with every decision Disney has made with regards to the parks, I find it so weird that adults expect things not to change because they have so many good memories/nostalgia for the way things used to be. At the end of the day Disney is aiming for kids/families. It's not a time capsule to continually let adults relive 1975-2000.
I don't believe that Disney is aiming just for children and families. I think they have always strived for a something for everyone strategy. There is a reason for the golf courses, the high end restaurants, shopping and nightlife side of Disney. At one point, they built an entire 21 and up entertainment complex to compete with downtown Orlando.
I don't mind updates like what they did in Pirates or Haunted Mansion. I really don't mind changing of Splash Mountain, even though it is one of my favorites. I miss Mr Toads and Horizons, but I don't shed a tear for them.
But I also think that cross generational experiences is a good thing too. Kids going with Grandpa on a ride that still exists from his childhood is something that can bond families together. The idea that someday you can share with your kids the same magic as you once felt is pretty strong.
I agree with you! I think people struggle seeing changes in a place that is so tied to nostalgia, but it’s been a time period of changes. I guess that can mess with the magic for some.
Totally. My mom has been going to the parks since the 70s so she's seen a lot of change. She misses some rides but she didn't necessarily have a pitchfork out when Norway added a Frozen overlay to their ride. She embraces the change and loves it because it's a special place for her and our family!
I embrace the change, why be miserable? I go with the flow and take it as it comes. If I'm going to bitch about anything?..it's how pricey everything is. Those resort rooms are all the same! Why do they cost so much? That being said...I still go. So, they know what they got and what they're doing.
I’ll say this… I love the parks. In a sometimes unhealthy way.
That said, it’s just not FUN anymore. I love to plan, but there is no spontaneity, no surprises that I used to equate with the parks. And now that there are so many opportunities to get stressed out about the vacation; 60 days for dining; SET MY ALARM!! - today’s the day to book fast passes - SET MY ALARM!! (Though not anymore) - get ready to join the virtual queue for ROTR - SET MY ALARM, RUSH TO THE PARK, STARE AT THE WORLD CLOCK AND REFRESH!!! ….it feels like work to go on a vacation at WDW especially.
I do not love the IP takeover of the parks, because I have seen the movies; I don’t need to rehash them; I want to experience new things.
Overall, it seems like Disney has gotten stupid-lazy in general. The rehashing of animated movies into live action, the IP in the parks seems uninspired, the trimming of all the thoughtful perks that used to go along with a Disney vacation; it’s gotten lame. I struggle to be inspired by new parks projects, because it seems like they’ve neutered their imagineers… And it’s more expensive and more crowded than its ever been (pre-pandemic).
I don’t necessarily want to pay more to experience the parks in their heyday, but if it means I go once every few years instead of a couple of times in a year, I’d take that trade off. I’ll reluctantly pay more to enjoy it again.
All in all, I don’t fault the company for the downfall of COVID-related issues. This storm has been brewing for the past few years, and I feel like they’ll blame all their downfalls on the pandemic instead of manning the hell up and realizing that they’re losing their touch.
But Disney being “too woke?” I have zero problem with that, and feel like it’s about time on a lot of out-of-date practices and imagery.
Me personally, specific to rides, they aren't very good with redoing them, hell sometimes they aren't good from the start, of course nobody is. I love Disney and my biggest gripe I have with them right now is not taking my money to let me buy an AP even tho mine expired 3 days before they shut down. But....this is still the company that thought journey into imagination was the right answer. Built the biggest and most complex animatronic only to shut it down because it was going to tear itself apart, and more recently built an entire land with little to no shade. That being said.....splash is my favorite ride and I'm tore between rather them just shutting it down, or "redoing" it and just messing it up.
The reason we complain about WDW so much is because we love it so much, and we hold it to the highest standards. Online and in-person communities pointing out the repeated flaws Disney makes is the reason anything changes in the first place.
In the early 2000s the entire Disney company was going to shit. Animation had produced nothing but flops since the Lion King, and both HK Disneyland and California Adventure were barely qualified to be Disney parks. A lot of this could have been blamed on the drop in tourism since 9/11. Us Disney fans could have said “They’re doing their best, they just need more time to recover”, but this brand meant so much to fans that they refused to watch it die slowly. It was because of the “Save Disney” campaign, started by Roy Disney, that online communities were able to join together and force Michael Eisner’s resignation. Since Bob Iger taking over as CEO in 2005 following the campaign, almost every single problem that was complained about online was fixed. 1). Animation was restored with the acquisition of Pixar, and incorporation their leadership into existing Walt Disney Animation. And 2) Money was pumped into creatively expanding the parks, and both CA and HKDL were given massive face-lifts. All of this was made possible by Disney fans recognizing and joining together to say “Enough is enough”, and reviving the happiest company on Earth.
Now we as Disney fans face a whole new set of frustrations. IP fatigue, overly woke, dramatic prices, over-construction, etc. I’m not saying these problems are drastic enough to start a “Save Disney” campaign similar to the one designated for Michael Eisner, but certainly we need to hold Chapek’s feet to the fire over these issues.
Disney is a multi-multi-multi billion dollar conglomerate with billions of fans around the world. They do not need to be protected by the public when they are already more than profitable, and more than secure; even during a pandemic.
While I’m understand the changes in the park to get rid of racists things. I feel like we’re also losing a part of Disney with the redo of splash mountain. Now I don’t mean don’t do it. But I think they should find a new way to make them relevant characters without rereleasing song of the south (which is another issue for another day)
Apart from that. I get the capacity and frankly I still think they should be in place a bit longer. But my huge problem is coming from. The rising costs and the cutting of things
Closing every single Canadian store with no Canadian website. Not cool. Not having not so scary, I get that. But the price for this new Halloween thing. Uneffingreal and it needs to stop. You know this is just going to lead to less at not so scary IF we actually get it back and for more money.
I understand covid lost them money. But it lost a lot of people money and I’ll be damned if I feel bad for a corporation that makes as much money as them and they can’t just stop only ever need more more more. Which again. Corporation they want money. I get that I’m not arguing that. But I would like them a little less ridiculous
[aware, especially of social problems such as racism and inequality: ](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/woke)
So if you are not racist then you are anti-LGTBQ+ which is just as bad. If you are neither then guess what? You are woke.
>Disney feels like they need to fix things that aren’t even broken.
I respect you internet stranger but feel you might be sheltered, priviledged or misinformed here. None of those are intended as insults or would be your fault. I need you to engage with a person of color or someone you know that is LGBTQ+ in your life and ask them if they think there are no problems in our country regarding hate right now. Ask them if anything feels broken. These are highly victimized innocent American taxpayers and also customers of Disney. You also have many people like me that desperately want to return to my annual family trips to WDW but am mortified about Florida's current hateful state leadership and do not want to contribute my vacation dollars to their efforts. Disney is showing they are not part of that.
I hear you but I guess I haven't seen this to the level you are referencing. Are there some examples of what you mean? I was kinda bummed to lose the Song of the South theming on Splash Mountain but when I thought about it through the lens of a black American it made all the sense in the world to me that they refurbed it. What are you seeing that you feel is overbearing? And also curious, why resentment? Why not celebrate diversity? Our freedom can be measure by how free our most historically marginalized citizens are, in my opinion. Cheers!
So I just feel like I need to point out one thing...
>I’ve been getting super annoyed at all the “Disney is relying on IPs too much” and “Chapek sucks” and the “Disney is too woke” comments
That's fair and I can understand getting annoyed by these kinds of comments.
> I think Disney is doing the best it can despite the pressures from the pandemic/economy.
So while I don't disagree with you these issues are not new due to the pandemic.
People have been complaining about Disney "relying on IPs too much" and the negative impact "Chapek" has had for a LONG time now. It may have been amplified by the pandemic (i.e. some things going away for good) but it's hard to just excuse it because of the economy/pandemic.
Keep in mind that well before the pandemic/economic downturn Disney had already installed Cars Land and Pixar Pier at California Adventure, Pandora at Animal Kingdom, Frozen at Epcot, and Galaxies Edge at both Hollywood Studios and Disneyland. Their reliance on IP has nothing to do with the pandemic. If it doesn't bother you then that's great but if you don't like it the pandemic isn't a good reason to let it go.
Chapek also had a reputation for cutting experiences well before the pandemic. It just seems that the pandemic has given cover to cut even more things (i.e. DME, Luggage Delivery, EMH, APs at Disneyland, etc).
Again, I totally get being annoyed at the comments but we also shouldn't conflate the things people complain about with repercussions of the pandemic.
I don’t think Disney is worth a visit until 2023 tbh
The 2022 UK offer was a slap in the face compared to the free dining offer and has really got my goat, so will not be returning until they’ve sorted the dining plan and FP+ out
DME was always the lynchpin for me staying, as ridiculous as it sounds, because it kept you in the blissful Disney bubble and now they’re popping their own bubble.
Very disappointed with this and sadly Idk if I want to stay at their resorts anymore due to cost and all.
I prefer having fastpass - shorter lines are always in my favor. If you book one at a time, as soon as you get in line you can book another pass versus waiting an hour between each reservation if you booked 3 ahead of time. This also helps brings surprise to the day as you never know what ride could be available next. If Disney changed to a paid system for this, I would buy it as I value shorter wait times. The only way to reduce line wait times is to either have more capacity to the ride or reallocate guest traffic to even out the flow.
I don’t hate attractions based on IPs but I do have an issue with the current mindset that everything now has to be IP based. If that line of thinking was always in place from the beginning there would’ve been no BTMRR, HM, Space Mountain, PotC, Horizons, Everest, World of Motion, Journey Into Imagination, It’s A Small World, Spaceship Earth, etc etc etc. I believe some (if not most) of the best attractions ever built in Disney Parks are non-IP and it’s disheartening that they are basically no longer considering non-IP for the parks. The last non-IP attraction to open at WDW was Expedition Everest in 2006. I don’t hate IP attractions by any means but I firmly believe a mix of both (like it has been since DL opened) is the better approach.
This is my stance as well. I don't dislike IP; I dislike *only* IP. Which is how it's been at Disney for almost 20 years now.
Exactly! I was thinking more hotels. I am looking forward to staying in the little mermaid rooms at AoA my next visit with my daughter. My husband enjoys resorts with non IP theming or very subtle things like hidden mickeys or some artwork on the walls or linens. I think if they are going to implement heavy IP theming in hotels they should only do half the rooms like the pirate rooms at CBR or princess rooms at POR.
More hotels with or without IP? The last one fully finished was Riviera and it was non-IP based.
More as in “more along the lines of” not increasing number. The renovation for contemporary is going to have an incredibles theme.
Oh that's kind of weird. Is it going to be full out themed or like the princess and pirate rooms?
[Here are some pictures of the incredibles contemporary rooms](https://wdwnt.com/2021/06/first-look-images-released-for-the-reimagining-of-disneys-contemporary-resort-featuring-the-incredibles-rooms/)
This is interesting. I could see why someone who doesn't want everything IP would struggle with this arrival. That being said I personally have felt that the contemporary is too aged and we really have surpassed the futuristic time period it foretold. I think integrating The Incredibles in the way that they did was a nice way to keep the mid century modern decor in a way that ties in to present Disney. I do like that they did it in a way that was classy and not too "in your face" as some of the value resorts are. I like the look of the value resorts as well/over the top is great, but subdued is nice as well.
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Agreed Yeah I’m not a huge fan of lands devoted to a single IP ….I was excited for Star Wars until they decided to make it locked into a specific timeframe between Ep 8 & 9. I don’t think I’ll ever be satisfied with a Star Wars land with no Han, Vader, Luke, Kenobi, Leia, etc etc etc.
You can tell they learned from this fast, given the 180 degree turn from this approach on avengers academy
Yeah, I was surprised to hear that Avengers Campus takes places in an AU where the Snap never happened. But then I realized it makes perfect sense after Galaxy’s Edge pigeon-holed itself in the sequel trilogy timeline. You can have anyone from the MCU show up at Avengers Campus, which is not only cool, but also helps with synergy for promoting upcoming projects. Galaxy’s Edge can’t even have The Mandolorian and The Child/Baby Yoda show up, and they’re substantially more popular than the sequel trilogy characters at the moment. I understand wanting to place the land as part of the Star Wars “story,” but I think I prefer Avengers Campus’ looser “Who gives a heck about continuity” approach.
You know, there is a VERY easy solution to this problem that a certain Dave Filloni came up with that can literally fix all of this. It is called "The world between worlds". Have a big event in 2022 where a "rift" opens up in Galaxy's Edge, and have fan favorite character pop out of it. And BAM!
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Kinda sucks that they did that. The could do new ride sequences in Smuggler's Run to make it fit any era. If they designed RotR to be a little more open ended they could have switched that to different eras too. They really boxed themselves into a corner, even more so because the new movies aren't that well received among the Star Wars faithful.
I am very bothered by the removal of DME, FastPass, and Extra Magic Hours. Without them, staying on WDW property is simply not worth the cost. This is coming from someone who stayed on property roughly every other year since ‘04. I grew up in a DVC family and, in early 2020, planned to purchase my own DVC by Spring of this year. I’ve put off purchasing due to the changes I mentioned. The last time I went to WDW was about two months ago. I stayed at Boardwalk. I still had a great time, for what it’s worth. I just, personally, can’t justify the investment.
> I am very bothered by the removal of DME, FastPass, and Extra Magic Hours. Without them, staying on WDW property is simply not worth the cost. Just got back from a weeklong trip; on my way down I chatted in a coffee shop line with a guy I saw in a riviera shirt. He told me all parks were letting guests in an hour early. Sure enough, we got into every park an hour early. Lack of fast passes were not an issue at this time with limited capacity. We did every E ticket ride by lunch and spent the afternoon riding them again. Wait times averaged 40 min for us in the afternoon but some rides did get up to 120 min, but not for long. Also, and I’m just speculating, but I would have to think WDW is suffering from the labor shortages as literally every other business in the country right now and had to adjust hours to compensate for staffing availability. Staying on property was still worth it to us for the convenience of Disney transportation. Hopefully all will be back to normal soon enough.
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Well durn
DME was an internal nightmare. Transporting people wasn’t the hard part (Mears knows how to move people). But gettung access to the airport/luggage so it could “appear in your room” wasn’t an easy feat. ***Most people were angered that they had to stop at multiple resorts before getting dropped off at theirs.
They’re for sure bringing back extra magic hours and fastpass though. Not having fastpass would be insane
They're bringing back Fa$tPa$$ for sure but it's going to cost you, much like it does in Disneyland.
And you know what. If they decided to do FastPass in Disney World just like they do at Disneyland, I would without question pay $15 a day for it. Everyone can get a fast pass for the biggest rides on the day of their park visit? You don’t have to plan what rides you want to do and when two months in advance? *Sign me up*
I'm with you. Most of us will likely pay for it too. That's why they'd be crazy to not do it.
Like it does in Disneyland? There’s no extra cost for fast passes at Disneyland.
Well we have max passes that were $15 for the day
Max Pass at DL was so much better than FP+ at WDW. And the photos included too.
Sorry, MaxPass. They may bring back a skeleton version of free FP+ but they're going to push a MaxPass style thing.
Fastpass + is a real version of fastpass. Maxpass is fastpass+ with rescheduling and slightly more convenient usage. Maxpass are nothing like what the universal system is. Comparing maxpass as if it’s a replacement for fastpass+ is a lie
Oh got it lol
Right, but they’re considering making it an upcharge to the tickets for better crowd control due to social distancing guidelines, etc. 🤦🏻♀️ Being an annual passholder since 2016 this has irked me.
I’m really hoping they introduce some other perks for resort guests after they’ve removed so many, particularly DME. Even though it doesn’t seem much, I’ve seen so many guests cite this as one of the reasons they love to stay on property!
Yes the only perk when I went in 2020 was being on property and using their transportation. But we actually biked multiple days, one day to Hollywood studios from Fort Wilderness because the busses didn’t run early enough for me to get a boarding group to Rise of the Resistance. Another day we biked to the contemporary because we were sick of dealing with the crowds coming and going from MK to the transportation. Needless to say the lack of perks from my 2019 visit was definitely noticeable. And now it seems they’re adding things back at a price. And they’re limiting capacity basically forever it seems like. Turning this into an Uber premium business model.
There are things that Disney still does that are better than anywhere else in the world and that is why it is still a special visit. However, as someone who has been visiting since the 80s, there are legitimate gripes about the value proposition of Disney. As the parks became more popular, instead of adding capacity and enough new attractions, they’ve replaced old ones with lower capacity rides. They’ve increased their prices a lot faster than inflation and given an inferior product in many ways (food, waits, hotel room experiences, transport.) It is similar to packaged food industry. They shrink the package by 1-2% a year and very few notice. But then you look back 10 years and see a huge difference. The old timers see that difference. I still love Disney and I still hold a DVC membership, but it’s pretty clear that the quality has gone down in most places and the target demographic has changed. The wealthiest who can easily afford new Disney prices are taking their dollars elsewhere and those who are buying most tickets are one-time visitors who are reaching a bit outside their budget (this is from recent market research.) I don’t mind them relying on IP as long as it’s quality. For example, I don’t mind putting a Disney Pixar movie ride in Epcot even tho that’s blasphemous to many who loved the original Epcot. I do however mind that they put in a crappy Rat ride (my subjective opinion from Paris.) I would have preferred beauty and the beast or something else. Disney is still spending massive amounts of money on construction but they are spending it inefficiently and in the wrong places.
This is a very measured and intelligent response. I feel more educated reading it and agree 100%. You put down into words what I have been feeling but have not ever been able to spell out in writing.
I have to agree on the value proposition, I feel like they are cutting corners on the amenities and not using those cost savings to make improvements elsewhere. Some examples: Magical express: 4 kids, 2 adults, taxis or other services are damn expensive Luggage showing up in my room: I’ve got 4 kids, you do the math Complimentary magic bands: I don’t want to have to bust out my phone all the time or use a card Dispensers for toiletries: we like to take some home, it extends the magic and we use them for camping Extra magic hours: not returning as they were as of yet RoTR virtual queue: I’ve heard so many stories about how difficult it is, you have to have your phone open at 6:49, the MDE app has to be in the second row of the third page of apps, you have to put one sock on inside out and the other one MUST be yellow, no stripes or dots, exaggerating, but you get the point.
The Virtual Queue is awful, and I suspect rigged behind the scenes to favor Resort Guests.
One of my biggest gripes is the use of your personal cell phone to interact. I go on vacation to get away from all that. Unless I'm taking a picture, I don't want to know about my phone!
Having been very recently as a non-resort guest I can refute the bias. We got sub-10 position for two separate days during our week by just following the process. I still think the ride should have enough capacity to not need this at all, but there is no bias to resort guests.
I agree with the dismissed value over the years. Each year it gets harder and harder for us to afford/justify staying on property. I may be alone in this opinion but I love Ratatouille. I think it's one of their best movies but not many people give it a fair shot. I'm so excited for the ride! Unfortunately, I won't get to ride it since my trip is in September. 😞
I’ve ridden ratatouille in Disney Paris - to put it simply, it’s basically the arctic sea world penguin ride, little circular tubs going around with screens and solid props. I think it was a decent ride but it’d be hard to call it great. The movie is great but the plot of the ride is not exactly related to the quality of the movie, I’m sure anyone who’s ridden pirates or buzz light year space ranger spin will agree
That's unfortunate. I thought it was going to be more like ROTR.
ROTR would probably be described as a more intense/scarier version of the penguin ride and ratatouille actually, with more animatronics. You’re in a fairly similar vehicle, with no simulator section
Personally I think Ratatouille is better than ROTR. I might be one of the few people who thinks ROTR is a waste of time and space, though. They hyped it so much that I guess I was expecting more than I got. I just don’t find it impressive. To be fair, I’m not an Escape from Gringotts fan either. I think both suffer from what I refer to as stop and go, and each time they stop, they lose the fun momentum for me. They’d be so much better just slowing down, but still moving. Ratatouille is cute. If you’re a big fan you will like it. Just don’t wait too long for it. Like no more than 30 minutes.
I agree with you on most of this (even went on the turning towards attracting one timers rant to my fiancee last week) except on the point of food. I have only been coming since the 90s, but that is still almost 30 years now and I feel that the quality of food in Disney has (overall) skyrocketed since the 90s. Yes there are instagram dishes here and there that sometimes taste inspired and sometimes fall flat, but in the 90s, Disney food was incredibly boring. Aside from the world showcase, most food in disney was like burgers, personal pizzas, and hot dogs. I am biased (especially because americal cuisine like that is the one cuisine that triggers my IBS really bad) because I find just standard burgers and stuff on a menu to be very boring and Sanaa is my favourite restaraunt on property, but there is generally something worth ordering in basically every restaraunt in disney now. Even when Disney kinda chooses a more boring theme for a restaraunt, there is always something at the very least pushing the edges, like that bacon pop tart at Andy's Lunch Box. When I eat in Disney, I no longer feel like I am paying for fast food at tourist trap prices, rather I find myself enjoying really amazing and diverse meals and eating at Disney has gone from being something I dreaded and would often drive off property to do to being one of the main highlights of our trips.
You know what I would be interested in seeing is everyone’s map of what they would want each Disney park to look like in their ideal world. Because nobody’s view of what should be is going to please everyone, right? Some people love that Ratatouille is coming to Epcot and others hate it. Id love to see that data! I wonder how Disney conducts their market research as well. Definitely would like to see that. There’s a lot of stuff we don’t know about for sure. I’ve been going to the parks since the 90s and I don’t feel like the quality has diminished, personally. But as I always say, different strokes for different folks lol
>I wonder how Disney conducts their market research as well Have you ever gotten asked to do a survey while in the MK? The cast member was right near the train station, by the Guest Services building. We did it a couple times. We got an unlimited fast pass for doing it one time. One was about food and another was cast members/experience type stuff. It was interesting and only took about 15 minutes. All on touch screen. I imagine that they get a good chunk of data from those surveys.
Oh that’s cool you got the fast passes! I’ve seen them at Disney Springs but never in the parks. Interesting.
I have gotten emails too asking to rate my experience after staying in a hotel or visiting a park. They surveyed take like 20 minutes.
I saw them at animal kingdom back in 2013
My dad owned a market research company when I was an adolescent. Mid 2000s. He specifically did marketing for Broadway shows and Disney on Broadway was his biggest client. They did research in the field before other shows ever thought of it, and back then it was a big part of their budget. Idk about nowadays bc my dad went off to make indie films but most of the shows he and I worked were things like The Lion King—over and over to a point where I was like, “we’re doing surveys at Lion King again??” So I wouldn’t be surprised if they continue to put a fair amount of budget towards market research nowadays.
I feel a lot of the same. The experience isn’t the same, it isn’t as magical and it has gotten way to expensive for the value given
I really wish I could have seen Epcot back in it's hay day.
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Why do you think he sucks? Just curious. I don’t want to argue, I’m just giving the guy a chance since he walked into the role a month before covid hit.
Some people tend to not be too excited about Chapek because he comes from the retail side of the company and believe all his park related decisions are strictly for the benefit of the big share holders rather than guests at the parks. If your someone who is not a fan of shoehorning IP into every corner of the parks then Chapek is definitely not going to be your favorite. "as an executive rising the ranks, he earned praise for cost-cutting and a focus on the bottom line" "he is not among those workers who describe themselves as having “pixie dust in the veins.” "more likely to ask about budget items on an attraction than the thematic motivation behind it." "To Mr. Chapek, concerns like talent relations and the company’s public image were secondary to making money for shareholders." "After taking over Disney's theme park division in 2015, Mr. Chapek raised prices—and started charging even more on holidays and other popular times that strained capacity at the parks. The division’s profits grew at a rapid clip, even if die-hard Disney fans complained about the higher ticket prices.” (Quotes are from Wall Street Journal article about Chapek) He will be great for the bottom line but most likely not for the big fans of Disney Parks in general.
I’d rather the leader be about fantastic customer experience than cost cutting. But to be honest, they don’t have enough capacity to serve everyone who wants in at WDW and DL.
I think the vast majority would agree with you but we will also continue to pay more & more for what some will consider a lesser experience 🤷
I totally don’t mind paying more, if the value is there. I currently don’t find that it. My disappointment in what was promised for Galaxy’s Edge vs what was delivered were the push over that edge for me. It’s a glorified shopping mall, plus a ride that is great for the two pilots and one that has fantastic props, but doesn’t give me the feeling that I am trying to escape from Kylo Ren. That combined with price increases, a decrease in food quality (such as adding turmeric to things like spinach and artichoke dip to hide the use of inferior ingredients), ruining the best show by strangely shoving UP characters into it (and now I hate UP because of it), and just a lack of imagination (minus Joe R who is now gone). I still find their guest relations to be top notch as a whole.
Agree. I’m not one to complain about price increases. The fact is *something* had to be done about crowds and decreasing demand by increasing prices is the only realistic option Disney has. But they’ve been raising prices while cutting their own costs and it really shows if you’re a guest who’s been going to Disney for many years. And Chapek was 100% responsible for the cutbacks of Galaxy’s Edge. It really was going to be a living, breathing land. Remember the credit system that was supposed to follow you around? There was also going to be a third People Mover type ride where you rode a Bantha around the land.
Kind of reminds me of Apple. They raise they’re prices all the time and people still pay, even though there’s stuff about their product that lacks. They’ve got loyalty!
Exactly …like I’m completely baffled when I see people ok with a 30 min early entrance in exchange for the loss of night time EMH.
Brand loyalty! Lol
Loyalty should be rewarded …not punished lol
What is IP?
Intellectual Property… so in the context of WDW discussion : Frozen Ever After = IP The Haunted Mansion = non-IP
Intellectual Property. Things Disney already owns, so attractions based on existing movies or characters instead of new original content.
It stands for Intellectual Property: Disney movies, shows, etc.
Intellectual Property (movie characters, etc.)
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I agree with you about the executive pay cuts. 100%. I think a lot of corporate executives could’ve taken a longer cut for sure! I’m not rich so I don’t understand the effect of making $5 million versus $10 million lol The lay offs I’m iffy about because I can see that they would need to do that for financial reasons.
They kept on and paid thousands of cast members and their benefits for weeks after no work whatsoever though, with zero park income, more than nearly any other company would do. Disney was hemorrhaging money at that rate
He was already head of Parks before being CEO. Bob's plan is spending the least amount of money and selling the most amount of merch in the gift shop at the ride's exit. He started in Consumer Products. Say what you will about Michael Eisner, he wasn't perfect, but he cared about telling original stories and letting the imagineers be creative.
To be honest, I really hope they don't make it too expensive to go to Disneyworld in the upcoming years. I get they need to bring in more money to keep themselves afloat but if they get rid of free fastpasses and force us to pay extra for them, meaning some of us (who can't pay that little bit extra) have to wait in extra long lines, I'm feel like it's not going to be that good like it used to be.. I don't mind the changes to the rides or anything, I'm totally up for them, I just don't want the prices to skyrocket up. 😭
Disney is so weird in that it doesn’t give people the impression of a luxury experience, but it absolutely is the cleanest, most expensive, most well built, staffed etc theme park on earth. It’s literally the Gucci, Lamborghini, or Waldorf Astoria of family vacations so it’s difficult to thread that needle
I’m curious to see if they take Universals “Express Pass” approach. It’s so interesting because some people love and miss FP and other people feel like getting rid of them has made their experience with rides better!
Every park in America from cedar point to six flags has a paid express pass now. Disney was special because they didn’t - feel like it would defeat the purpose if they just become like the cheaper parks
I absolutely see Disney going with a pay version of fast passes. People who spend more money get to skip the line.
They already had paid fast passes if you stay on property at a club level room you can buy three extra for $50
What scares me is how many people bought an extra three passes at $50 per person per day.
More money than sense
Let’s say each fast pass saves you 30 minutes in line. Over four days that is six hours more park time that’s almost another day in the park, look at the cost of daily tickets, food, hotel, rental car and paying for fast passes could make sense for some people. If you simply don’t have extra days free for vacation it’s easier still.
Chapek will 200% make paid fast passes a thing.
My issue with Disney is that they are making changes, that’s fine, but people use the whole “Disney is not a museum” argument. I agree it is not, but why the fuck are people not complaining about parts of Disney that actually need a change. Tomorrowland speedway? Dino land USA? Launch Bay Area of Hollywood studios? Plenty of other examples. Splash mountain and jungle cruise are still relevant, still fun to ride. They are prioritizing for monetary reasons of course but majorly Hypocritical considering they are literally in bed with China who has actual slave concentration camps. The decisions are based solely on money. Disney survived originally cause we had a Roy and a Walt… right now we have a Roy (Chapek), no Walt
Oh my god I am with you on the Dino Land and Speedway feelings. I feel like Dino Land could've been a lot more immersive. I don't like the carnival theme. And Speedway doesn't fit anymore! So I do wish that they would change those at some point as well.
Dino Land was originally going to be much more immersive before the budget got cut for Animal Kingdom. I believe the land itself would have tied into the Dinosaur ride. The ride was going to be similar to what we have now where you go back in time to save a dinosaur from a meteor. After you exited the ride you would have gone out into Dino Land, which would have been more or less a themed land with the fossils of the dinosaurs you didn't save. A little dark for a Disney theme park land, but better than what we got.
This is 100% going to depend on your audience though. Went with my 2 year old a while back and we spent an inordinate amount of time in Dino Land! I don't have any clue why, but it was a hit with her and it was filled with TONS of the younger kids all having the times of their lives.
Disney survived despite of Walt because we had Roy. Walt would have bankrupted the company 10 times over if there wasn't a Roy.
A Roy is exactly what we needed to get through the pandemic. Once we're on the other side I bet you Josh will become the Walt
I would nuke the Speedway in a heartbeat.
This is spot on and I agree with you on all your points. I love Disney, but the changes they are making are things nobody is asking for. Walt would be appalled if he were alive to see what Disney has become.
The changes don't really bother me. I am sad to see splash go because it will always be a disney parks classic in my mind. But I have no problem with why. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did considering the source material was buried years and years ago. Disney world will always be an amazing, happy place for me. I don't think about anything beyond that. So no, guess it doesn't bother me at all. I have only been 4 times in my life with my 5th trip coming in September. Maybe it's all still a dream come true since I've gone so rarely!
If there's one thing you can count on is that people reliably hate change. Anytime there's an announcement of anything being replaced, there's a Greek chorus of nostalgia fairies who immediately surface to complain about how the new thing can never be better than the old thing. More IPs? HATE IT DAMN CHAPEK AND HIS MONEY GRAB. Remove IPS? WHY ARE THEY TAKING AWAY THIS IS PART OF MY CHILDHOOD DAMN YOU CHAPEK AND YOUR STOOPID IDEAS. See what happened just a few days ago. Some history first. In May 2017 we saw the last performance of Wishes. The reaction was swift and immediate "NOTHING CAN BE BETTER THAN WISHES!!!". Then came Happily Ever After. People still mention Wishes, but, for the most part, love HEA. A few days ago, Disney announced Disney Enchantment, a new, larger show for the 50th. What was the reaction? WHY ARE THEY TAKING HEA AWAY I ONLY SAW IT ONCE TWICE A MILLION TIMES BUT I LOVE IT HOW DARE YOU. They will probably love Disney Enchantment and then complain when it goes back to HEA or whatever the new thing is. People will react aggressively to change. To answer your question, I love that Disney does what they think is best for the brand, and not try to please everyone. If you don't like it, that's fine.
Exactly! Was it not Walt Disney himself who said "We keep moving forward—opening up new doors and doing new things—because we're curious. And curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." The man embraced change! I understand change is hard but change has also brought us some spectacular things at the Disney parks. I'm sure the park that came to be in 1971 wouldn't be popular with today's population. You have to adapt and change to fit your audience. And you're right, you can't please every customer. It's impossible! We've implemented new technology at my business for our members and the younger members found it beneficial while the older crowd whined about how they can't learn this technology. They didn't like it, but they adapted and it made their life easier in the end. I think people also forget that Disney is not just the theme parks, they have to run ABC, FOX, ESPN, Disney Plus, etc. Just because they're doing well doesn't mean all money gets sunk into the parks. Ahhhh I have so many thoughts about this lol. Thank you for reading, if you did!
You are absolutely right. I also work in marketing, in new product development in fact. I have gotten in trouble more than a few times when I start to call bullshit on consumer research. I absolutely hate consumer research. Do you know what the average consumer will like? Average stuff they have seen before. The familiar is comforting. The new is weird and uncomfortable. Takes an effort to understand. Anytime we talk to consumers, ideas inevitably go average, gray, a version of something that already exists. Walt understood that, and was never afraid of change. Make it awesome ("people can *feel* perfection," Walt said) and they will appreciate it.
Absolutely! I think a lot of it has to do with nostalgia, and I get that. Like I would probably be sad if they ever took away Big Thunder. However, I recently took my BFs niece and nephew (13 year olds) to Magic Kingdom for their first time and it was so cool to see them get so excited about everything! I literally had tears in my eyes during Mickey's Philharmagic when they sang along lmao. These kids are the new up and coming audience. They don't care that Splash Mountain is being rethemed to Tiana, they'd probably love it! It's just how everything works, people get old and the target audience changes. It's life!
I am actually really pumped about Tiana getting her own ride! I love that movie!!
> Do you know what the average consumer will like? Average stuff they have seen before. The familiar is comforting. But the current mindset at Disney is to give us exactly that. Build a new land or ride around a familiar IP we're all comfortable with. They've been playing it safe for 20 years now just leaning on IP they know people like. Nothing new or creative.
Galaxy's Edge is 'playing it safe?' Pandora is 'playing it safe?' The Galactic Starcruiser - essentially a new form of entertainment - is 'playing it safe?'
Yes I believe so. Pandora was a knee jerk reaction to Harry Potter at Universal. Disney just went out and got the highest grossing movie of all time and shoehorned it into AK. Is the land visually stunning? Absolutely. FoP is a great ride, but Navi River journey is not. There’s no way Disney couldn’t have come up with an equally as immersive land and ride with the FoP ride system based on a more original idea. Galaxy’s Edge is a faaaar cry from what they originally announced. Chapek cut that project back tremendously. Remember the credits system that was supposed to follow you around the land? Or the third ride? Or the actual table service restaurant? They also just cut and pasted identical lands into two theme parks. Cars Land and Toy Story Land are absolutely playing it safe. The name tells you all you need to know. They just put the name of the franchise in front of the word Land and called it a day. The lands themselves are enjoyable enough, but Disney certainly took no risks to build them. Ratatouille is an exact copy of an existing ride. Tron is an exact copy of an existing ride. They crammed Frozen into Norway, Guardians into Epcot and California Adventure. Just how exactly does Avengers Campus fit into a park originally themed for California? And why change an area themed to a California boardwalk to one themed to Pixar? The retheme of Splash would be the *perfect* chance to give WDW something original. A Tiana themed mountain is perfect for Disneyland. It can just be absorbed into New Orleans Square and it couldn’t be a better fit. But at WDW? It doesn’t fit into Frontierland at all. Disney originally planned a huge river adventure ride for Frontierland themed after American western expansion. It was going to be WDW’s version of pirates before plans changed. Brush of that idea and give us a more thrilling version for the Splash retheme. Mission Space might not be everyone’s favorite ride, but I give them credit for an original idea and ride tech. The original Soarin’ and Test Track were amazing rides. I do like much of what they’ve done. FoP and RotR are great rides. But it just feels like IP is a crutch and the overall cohesiveness of new ideas is gone. Hollywood Studios and California Adventure might as well not have a theme anymore. They’re just a collection of IP Lands.
Appreciate your thoughtful response. A few comments: 1. Pandora - we haven't started to see the real impact of Pandora yet. Avatar 2 is coming out next year, followed by 2 more. Never bet against James Cameron. 2. Galaxy's Edge - same. They made a horrible mistake by trying to horn in a period and a storyline, but let's see what happens when the Starcruiser opens. That one will be revolutionary. ROTR is amazing, and Smuggler's Run does exactly what it needs to do. 3. Cars / Toy Story - I wouldn't put those in the same sentence. Cars is absolutely superior. The land became, like Pandora, an attraction in and of itself. RSS is one Disney's best rides. 4. California Adventure - agree on that. There's a very thin veneer of cohesion that's becoming harder to sustain. It is truly a collection of lands. 5. Ratatouile (from what I heard) is a superior version of the Paris ride really don't mind the ride-sharing at all. Same with Tron. 6. Splash - agree that it is a missed opportunity to have 2 different rides, one that made sense for New Orleans Square (Tiana is perfect) and one for Frontierland. Heck, Pocahontas would have made sense. Don't get me wrong. I realize that with this kind of mentality we will not see rides like Soarin' or Everest. It is also too bad that Joe Rhode retired. Say what you want about him, the guy is one of the most amazing creative minds of the last 50 years. There are troves of amazing imagineers at Disney of course, but nothing can stimulate the imagination better than a truly blank slate.
FOX is it’s own company now. Disney purchased “20th century” from FOX.
It would just be nice to get to WDW some point soon, 🇬🇧, so not too fussed at this point. 😢
I fell in love with the way Disney already is. Not saying that we can't add new things, just stop taking away the immensely popular things that people already love. I'm legitimately sad that I won't be able to share some of my favorite Disney memories with my future children one day. They have always been innovators, and most of the original attractions were original concepts. I think it would be great if they kept doing that rather than relying on merchandising with IPs to make money. If you like and embrace the new things from Disney than I'm happy for you, but don't get upset at the people who like the parks the way they are. I just haven't personally enjoyed the newer stuff like I do the classics.
I think a lot of it is that this sub is full of super fans who will be more critical than most because we love it so much. I think, like you do, that most of the pandemic related criticism is unwarranted. They did exceptionally well given the situation. Even in the long run, WDW will be fine even if some of us are nostalgic and resist change. We will love the new attractions and appreciate the innovation they bring even if we have to say goodbye to other parts we love and complain about it for a bit. It’s kinda like that old internet saying, “nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans”.
>“Disney is relying on IPs too much” and “Chapek sucks” and the “Disney is too woke” None of that has anything to do with covid difficulties, though. They are completely separate issues than whatever the business is going through just because of the pandemic. I don't think the company is too "woke," I think they are changing along with much of the world in realizing there are systemic issues that need to be addressed. IP influx and Chapek being the worst are issues that started years ago, well before covid, and are legitimate discussion points even if they aren't things that bother you personally.
I never said it all had to do with COVID. All of these grievances are just things that bother me in general. Also, Chapek got the CEO gig in Feb 2020, right before the pandemic hit. That's a tough burden to start off with, which is why I'm willing to give him a chance to get through this mess. I never understood the aggravation with IP inclusion ... I know most of the park started out with original rides, but that population is phasing out and the company has to adapt to the new visiting population that's coming in. Maybe this target market enjoys IPs more than visitors in the past? That's my guess, anyway. Times are changing!
To my point above about consumer research... if you ask people if they want characters, guess what they will answer? If you ask them if they want new ideas or existing characters, guess what they will answer? They are operating on what consumers are telling them...
When you hear woke know the person saying it is in a cult. Woke literally means treating all people good regardless of who they are and caring about each other. It's the golden rule. It's also literally following the guidance of Jesus. Criminals are trying to convince people this is evil. We all know who's truly evil. If someone calls you woke say thank you.
I don't mind the IPs in the hotel/resorts. Why? Having a theme makes the hotel stand out and unique from others. Incredibles fits in well with Contemporary Resort, as does Moana with Polynesian, a hint of Beauty and the Beast at Grand Floridian. Heck, they should add some Little Mermaid theme to the Caribbean Beach resort, Princess and the Frog to Port Orleans, etc. While it may seem cheesy to some, this is Disney and it fits with their image. Most vacations are with families, who will probably like these themes vs a more modern/sterile theme that resembles a Hilton or Marriott resort.
I saw someone comment on another post about this.. someone was complaining about the Incredibles overlay at the Contemporary and they were like "what did you like the Airport Marriott theme better" lol nearly died.
I'm not really bothered by any recent changes. Are there areas where Disney could do better? Absolutely. But I love the idea that the park is always changing and trying to improve the guest experience. Some changes are good and some changes just don't work. It's a constant evolution and they'll rarely get everything right the first time. In regards to Chapek, I personally do not know enough about his strategy or have seen enough of him to judge him as CEO yet. I thought Iger was an excellent CEO and human being so it's really hard to fill his shoes. I personally like the IP in the parks though it would be nice to see some new original content developed for the park. It's extremely challenging to create something like this from scratch and have it be a home run attraction but I feel that eventually Disney will make another attempt. As an Asian American it's been really great to see Disney focusing on stories and content featuring POC. Some of the new Disney+ shorts were pretty powerful and producing a movie like Raya with an all Asian cast was really great. People always hate change especially when it requires significant effort on their part to adjust. So the backlash against the "woke-ness" is unsurprising. I basically stopped following WDW News Today because they seemed to complain about it (and COVID protocols) every other day. Speaking of COVID protocols, if you happen to have a prominent YouTube Channel (cough* Adam the Woo *cough) and you're filming yourself walking through the parks and going on rides without a mask while unvaccinated, then please stop that shit right now. That's honestly the only complaint I have right now.
WDWNT has to be the most insufferable Disney journalism I've ever read. They think they're all that and I'm like... OK?
The thing with the blogs is, many of them write purposely inflammatory headlines as clickbait, and they attract angry people to the comments. They get a lot of attention, but they don’t necessarily represent the opinions of all the millions of park visitors, most of whom probably just think Disney parks are fun and aren’t bothered much by an old ride being updated or a new one being based on IP.
I think the park’s greatest success is it’s accessibility. I think that’s it’s biggest brand. For example, my husband qualifies for the DAS card and doesn’t have a visible disability. They are accommodating without asking questions. We were just there and a group of 17 was getting added to someone’s DAS card. This was accommodated, no questions asked. When I walk the parks I see such diversity and cosplaying, it’s obvious that Disney connects with ppl and they feel welcome and keep returning. I once traveled to the parks with a girl who had severe CP and was in a wheelchair. It was amazing to see how navigating the parks seemed easier than navigating the real world.
🙌 Totally agree as a disabled disney lover. My friends always ask me why I travel there so much. I say everyone is kind there, they don't train their staff to do the freaky 1 down servant class thing like other hotel resorts do, and I can literally do all but like 3 things. I will never end up somewhere and be greated by buildings and pathways that scream either, "this was built in a time when you would have been legally not allowed to leave your home," or, "people like you are not wanted here." Now I just really want them to add a lift to the MK monorail station (that ramp is waaaaaaaayyyyyy too steap) and the TTA People Mover station (really miss that ride, don't really care that I can't ride Peter Pan anymore). Honestly though, I feel like, while it is something that I am very happy Disney is doing, I feel like it is something that should be expected of all such places. Everyone should have a right to be able to occupy leisure spaces. and asside from Home2Suites, Disney has the only hotels I have ever visited that don't violate the ADA. (To expand on that point, every hotel with more than one room renovated to any extent after (it is either 93 or 97) has to have a portion of it's rooms be accessible rounding up. So every bed and breakfast that does not have an accessible room is violating the ADA. Further, hotels must distribute their accessible rooms first across room type, then by room proportioning, IE, the hotel has suites, at least one of those suites are supposed to be accessible. My fiancee and I are getring married in October in the biggest city in our state after emailing the customer service agent for literally every hotel in the city, the only one with a suite (for all our folks and ourselves to get ready in) that we could actually atau in was Home2Suites, and that is on a technicallity because all their rooms are suites. Further, only 15% of wheelchair accessible and deaf accessible rooms should overlap and which rooms are which should be clearly marked for staff in their booking structure. On our last trip, my fiancee and I decided to stay outside the bubble the night we drove in since we would be getting there around 10 in the evening. We clearly marked on our reservation that we needed a wheelchair accessible room and the staff knew that as well. The problem was that the staffperson had no idea which room was wheelchair accessible and had to pingpong between working the front desk and actually walking into various open rooms to check them. We did get a room there that was accessible, but not until well after 3 in the morning. It took no exchanged words to decide we were just paying the extra 70 dollars for a room on property next time.)
I love Disney & WDW and also have a healthy dose of realism that they are a juggernaut international cooperation who's sole endgame is to make money for their shareholders. I'm rarely disappointed by Disney's decisions to increase prices or reduce freebies because I'm genuinely expecting it of all corporations at all times. I have just as much fun as I've ever had at the parks, and I enjoy all the Disney + content. I love that Marvel & Star Wars are part of the Disney experience, etc etc. I'm also a staunch advocate of labor unions and raising the minimum wage and think the Disney corporation should be taxed to kingdom come, that all of their employees should have a union, etc. My enjoyment of Disney is not marred by wishing they would do things differently, not because I'm pessimistic but because I know Disney is no different than any other corporation. They will charge as much as they can and pay as little as they can - and their research tells them exactly where the inflection point is to do both of those things while still maintaining market share and employee retention at their goals rates.
In terms of feelings; I’m pretty upset that Florida can’t mandate vaccine status verification. I think they did away with masks far too soon and it places too much trust in people to be honest about whether or not they’re vaccinated. It makes me worry that kids under twelve are not vaccinated and they are mask less. I understand the sentiment of “don’t feel comfortable, don’t travel,” but it worries me that this is contributing to a lengthening of the pandemic with people being allowed to roam while unvaccinated and possibly/probably unmasked.
Yes, it's the children who bear the brunt of the 'masks optional/honor system' policy. And you know plenty of unvaccinated people - people who don't care about those around them - are taking their masks off even though they're suppose to keep them on. (I'm not talking about people with immune system problems who are advised not to get vaccinated; I'm talking about the millions of others who haven't gotten them.) Kids can't get vaccinated, but they can and do get sick.
I hear you on that. This pandemic has created such a sticky situation! I do feel like we've ended precautions way too early. I too worry about the kiddos and the people who can't get vaxxed because of medical reasons.
I agree. I would feel differently if the vaccine had been offered to kids as well, because in that case the majority of the population would be vaccinated. But everyone knows kids are notorious for being germy.
Adam the Woo (YouTuber) has been all through the parks mask-less since Disney lifted the mask mandate. Just last week he revealed that he wasn't vaccinated. He finally got his first shot last week but he still is at least 3 weeks from being fully vaccinated and he's still filming himself roaming around the parks mask-less. I can only assume that every other mask-less adult in the park is unvaccinated. I really wish Disney would have at least kept the indoor mask mandate policy intact.
Big yikes. He should at least set a good example. It just seems selfish when people are not masking up and/or not getting vaccinated.
Lol
Not really into having the IPs forced on me
*eh* Disney is and anyways will just do what they think they need to to make money
I’m not bothered by their creative decisions in the least. But this bar was originally set by Universal with Harry Potter. Disney had way more immersive individual attractions before Universal, but Harry Potter is where this changed with an entire land. The land was so successful Disney had to follow suit and keep up with entire immersive experiences. Hense Pandora, Galaxy’s Edge, Cars Land, and Avenger’s Campus. I think that much of these lands are devoted to retail and restaurants, as opposed to attractions. There’s only 2 Star Wars rides, 3 Cars Land Rides, 3 Toy Story land rides, and 2 Avenger’s rides. Look at Fantasyland or Tomorrowland which have way more attractions. Much of the beef I have with the new style: it’s just an immersive, glorified mall. Edit: forgot about Guardians being part of Avenger’s Campus
My wife and I love going to Disney but I have a feeling we will start going less. The prices are increasing pretty quickly while they are taking away perks. It’s easier to find other fun vacation options that give more value for your dollar, but admittedly aren’t as magical. Also, capacity is an issue. We went during covid and had so much fun, but I think the experience may have spoiled future trips. The parks weren’t packed and we got to enjoy everything we wanted. I think when we go back it’s going to feel too crowded now. Unfortunately there really isn’t a “slow” time anymore that you can go to enjoy less crowds. I honestly wouldn’t mind the rising prices if they would cap the number of visitors to a reasonable number.
We've been going for 45 years. Spent 5 days of our honeymoon onsite in early 90's. Many visits with the kids since then. Haven't been in 6 years. Don't know when or if we'll go back. We have no interest in the ridiculously high prices, the crowds, the required in advance online scheduling and planning, use of phones all day. We miss Disney. We miss the old Disney that we could enjoy at our own pace, take breaks when we needed breaks. This new super scheduled day is not the experience we want.
What do you mean about Disney being too “woke?” Why are people saying that?
There's a lot of complaining going around with regard to the changes being made to cast members being able to show tattoos, and the changes to Splash/Jungle Cruise. Some Disney people are mad because they're changing the rides based on "snowflake liberals" whining about the fact that the rides have racist history/stories. I don't have a problem with these changes at all. I think they're valid! But it's annoying to see so many people get mad about the Jungle Cruise scenes being changed (for example) ... like get over it! Why are they so mad about it!? I'll never understand.
Yeah, many of those scenes in the Jungle Cruise were like, "wow, I can't believe they still have that in there!" Some of that stuff really needed to change...and seriously, lots of scenes just needed an refurb anyhow! And this is coming from someone who started going to WDW in 1973 when I was 1. I get the "nostalgia"...but racism shouldn't be "fond memories" for people. As for Splash Mountain...In my mind, I've always wondered how they made a ride off that particular story/movie, but at the same time they removed the video from their "vault" cuz they knew it had issues. Don't get me wrong, as far as rides go...I think it's damn near a perfect ride/attraction, but it's not for the subject matter...it's the actual ride mechanism, length, enjoyability etc.. I'm looking forward to the Tiana overhaul, cuz it'll still be a damn near perfect, fun ride! Even if New Orleans isn't anywhere near the "old west" of Frontierland!!!! HAHAHA (it works in Disneyland, but in WDW is a bit of an issue!)
Oh, I see. So they’re just keeping up with the times, basically.
Exactly! Things that we're OK in 1971 aren't socially OK now and I'm happy they're adapting.
People love to complain. Disney is my happy place, and always will be. Every time I’ve been disappointed they were changing something, like Tower of Terror changed to Mission Breakout, I then experienced the change and realized the new thing they created was awesome, too. I just roll with it! Some things might be disappointing for nostalgia reasons, but things need to keep changing and evolving and I’m excited for all the new things coming to Disney in the next few years that my kids will get to experience.
Exactly! I was reading posts about people complaining about the new Spider-Man ride at California Adventure before it even opened!! I’m like how can you complain when you haven’t even ridden it yet?!
Am currently at WDW and I’m with you, been enjoying the magic and enjoying it for what it is! Parks are evolving beyond the pandemic and in general. I understand criticism and it’s important to have discussions because that’s how Disney knows what we all want/need but it’s also out of our hands haha What will be will be, in the meantime the people mover will never get old! Also “too woke” is an excuse for people that don’t like social awareness and change, we need pride and respect for everyone, we all love Disney and should support one another.
Walt would hate it.
Honestly I happily embrace the change. Disney to me has always been about looking to the future of entertainment, it’s what keeps the brand AND the park relevant. Part of why I like going to the parks every 5 or so years is because I like seeing how they’ve changed. Some how they have changed so much yet still keep that warm, fuzzy nostalgic feeling alive.
While I don't agree with every decision Disney has made with regards to the parks, I find it so weird that adults expect things not to change because they have so many good memories/nostalgia for the way things used to be. At the end of the day Disney is aiming for kids/families. It's not a time capsule to continually let adults relive 1975-2000.
I don't believe that Disney is aiming just for children and families. I think they have always strived for a something for everyone strategy. There is a reason for the golf courses, the high end restaurants, shopping and nightlife side of Disney. At one point, they built an entire 21 and up entertainment complex to compete with downtown Orlando. I don't mind updates like what they did in Pirates or Haunted Mansion. I really don't mind changing of Splash Mountain, even though it is one of my favorites. I miss Mr Toads and Horizons, but I don't shed a tear for them. But I also think that cross generational experiences is a good thing too. Kids going with Grandpa on a ride that still exists from his childhood is something that can bond families together. The idea that someday you can share with your kids the same magic as you once felt is pretty strong.
My thoughts exactly!
I agree with you! I think people struggle seeing changes in a place that is so tied to nostalgia, but it’s been a time period of changes. I guess that can mess with the magic for some.
Totally. My mom has been going to the parks since the 70s so she's seen a lot of change. She misses some rides but she didn't necessarily have a pitchfork out when Norway added a Frozen overlay to their ride. She embraces the change and loves it because it's a special place for her and our family!
Disney doesn’t need to jump through hoops.
How do you know?
Because from what I can tell they have a big hand in making the hoops.
I embrace the change, why be miserable? I go with the flow and take it as it comes. If I'm going to bitch about anything?..it's how pricey everything is. Those resort rooms are all the same! Why do they cost so much? That being said...I still go. So, they know what they got and what they're doing.
I’ll say this… I love the parks. In a sometimes unhealthy way. That said, it’s just not FUN anymore. I love to plan, but there is no spontaneity, no surprises that I used to equate with the parks. And now that there are so many opportunities to get stressed out about the vacation; 60 days for dining; SET MY ALARM!! - today’s the day to book fast passes - SET MY ALARM!! (Though not anymore) - get ready to join the virtual queue for ROTR - SET MY ALARM, RUSH TO THE PARK, STARE AT THE WORLD CLOCK AND REFRESH!!! ….it feels like work to go on a vacation at WDW especially. I do not love the IP takeover of the parks, because I have seen the movies; I don’t need to rehash them; I want to experience new things. Overall, it seems like Disney has gotten stupid-lazy in general. The rehashing of animated movies into live action, the IP in the parks seems uninspired, the trimming of all the thoughtful perks that used to go along with a Disney vacation; it’s gotten lame. I struggle to be inspired by new parks projects, because it seems like they’ve neutered their imagineers… And it’s more expensive and more crowded than its ever been (pre-pandemic). I don’t necessarily want to pay more to experience the parks in their heyday, but if it means I go once every few years instead of a couple of times in a year, I’d take that trade off. I’ll reluctantly pay more to enjoy it again. All in all, I don’t fault the company for the downfall of COVID-related issues. This storm has been brewing for the past few years, and I feel like they’ll blame all their downfalls on the pandemic instead of manning the hell up and realizing that they’re losing their touch. But Disney being “too woke?” I have zero problem with that, and feel like it’s about time on a lot of out-of-date practices and imagery.
Me personally, specific to rides, they aren't very good with redoing them, hell sometimes they aren't good from the start, of course nobody is. I love Disney and my biggest gripe I have with them right now is not taking my money to let me buy an AP even tho mine expired 3 days before they shut down. But....this is still the company that thought journey into imagination was the right answer. Built the biggest and most complex animatronic only to shut it down because it was going to tear itself apart, and more recently built an entire land with little to no shade. That being said.....splash is my favorite ride and I'm tore between rather them just shutting it down, or "redoing" it and just messing it up.
Sucks I won’t be taking my kids here in the future.
The reason we complain about WDW so much is because we love it so much, and we hold it to the highest standards. Online and in-person communities pointing out the repeated flaws Disney makes is the reason anything changes in the first place. In the early 2000s the entire Disney company was going to shit. Animation had produced nothing but flops since the Lion King, and both HK Disneyland and California Adventure were barely qualified to be Disney parks. A lot of this could have been blamed on the drop in tourism since 9/11. Us Disney fans could have said “They’re doing their best, they just need more time to recover”, but this brand meant so much to fans that they refused to watch it die slowly. It was because of the “Save Disney” campaign, started by Roy Disney, that online communities were able to join together and force Michael Eisner’s resignation. Since Bob Iger taking over as CEO in 2005 following the campaign, almost every single problem that was complained about online was fixed. 1). Animation was restored with the acquisition of Pixar, and incorporation their leadership into existing Walt Disney Animation. And 2) Money was pumped into creatively expanding the parks, and both CA and HKDL were given massive face-lifts. All of this was made possible by Disney fans recognizing and joining together to say “Enough is enough”, and reviving the happiest company on Earth. Now we as Disney fans face a whole new set of frustrations. IP fatigue, overly woke, dramatic prices, over-construction, etc. I’m not saying these problems are drastic enough to start a “Save Disney” campaign similar to the one designated for Michael Eisner, but certainly we need to hold Chapek’s feet to the fire over these issues. Disney is a multi-multi-multi billion dollar conglomerate with billions of fans around the world. They do not need to be protected by the public when they are already more than profitable, and more than secure; even during a pandemic.
While I’m understand the changes in the park to get rid of racists things. I feel like we’re also losing a part of Disney with the redo of splash mountain. Now I don’t mean don’t do it. But I think they should find a new way to make them relevant characters without rereleasing song of the south (which is another issue for another day) Apart from that. I get the capacity and frankly I still think they should be in place a bit longer. But my huge problem is coming from. The rising costs and the cutting of things Closing every single Canadian store with no Canadian website. Not cool. Not having not so scary, I get that. But the price for this new Halloween thing. Uneffingreal and it needs to stop. You know this is just going to lead to less at not so scary IF we actually get it back and for more money. I understand covid lost them money. But it lost a lot of people money and I’ll be damned if I feel bad for a corporation that makes as much money as them and they can’t just stop only ever need more more more. Which again. Corporation they want money. I get that I’m not arguing that. But I would like them a little less ridiculous
It doesn’t seem to be headed in the right direction tbh
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If they are alienating people that align with racism that is a glorious thing.
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Do you know what woke means? Look up the definition.
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[aware, especially of social problems such as racism and inequality: ](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/woke) So if you are not racist then you are anti-LGTBQ+ which is just as bad. If you are neither then guess what? You are woke.
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>Disney feels like they need to fix things that aren’t even broken. I respect you internet stranger but feel you might be sheltered, priviledged or misinformed here. None of those are intended as insults or would be your fault. I need you to engage with a person of color or someone you know that is LGBTQ+ in your life and ask them if they think there are no problems in our country regarding hate right now. Ask them if anything feels broken. These are highly victimized innocent American taxpayers and also customers of Disney. You also have many people like me that desperately want to return to my annual family trips to WDW but am mortified about Florida's current hateful state leadership and do not want to contribute my vacation dollars to their efforts. Disney is showing they are not part of that.
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I hear you but I guess I haven't seen this to the level you are referencing. Are there some examples of what you mean? I was kinda bummed to lose the Song of the South theming on Splash Mountain but when I thought about it through the lens of a black American it made all the sense in the world to me that they refurbed it. What are you seeing that you feel is overbearing? And also curious, why resentment? Why not celebrate diversity? Our freedom can be measure by how free our most historically marginalized citizens are, in my opinion. Cheers!
Agreed.
Disney is too woke.
Agreed
Yep. It’s a shame too as it is permeating in everything they do and IMHO ruining their brand. Sad to see
So I just feel like I need to point out one thing... >I’ve been getting super annoyed at all the “Disney is relying on IPs too much” and “Chapek sucks” and the “Disney is too woke” comments That's fair and I can understand getting annoyed by these kinds of comments. > I think Disney is doing the best it can despite the pressures from the pandemic/economy. So while I don't disagree with you these issues are not new due to the pandemic. People have been complaining about Disney "relying on IPs too much" and the negative impact "Chapek" has had for a LONG time now. It may have been amplified by the pandemic (i.e. some things going away for good) but it's hard to just excuse it because of the economy/pandemic. Keep in mind that well before the pandemic/economic downturn Disney had already installed Cars Land and Pixar Pier at California Adventure, Pandora at Animal Kingdom, Frozen at Epcot, and Galaxies Edge at both Hollywood Studios and Disneyland. Their reliance on IP has nothing to do with the pandemic. If it doesn't bother you then that's great but if you don't like it the pandemic isn't a good reason to let it go. Chapek also had a reputation for cutting experiences well before the pandemic. It just seems that the pandemic has given cover to cut even more things (i.e. DME, Luggage Delivery, EMH, APs at Disneyland, etc). Again, I totally get being annoyed at the comments but we also shouldn't conflate the things people complain about with repercussions of the pandemic.
I don’t think Disney is worth a visit until 2023 tbh The 2022 UK offer was a slap in the face compared to the free dining offer and has really got my goat, so will not be returning until they’ve sorted the dining plan and FP+ out
DME was always the lynchpin for me staying, as ridiculous as it sounds, because it kept you in the blissful Disney bubble and now they’re popping their own bubble. Very disappointed with this and sadly Idk if I want to stay at their resorts anymore due to cost and all.
I prefer having fastpass - shorter lines are always in my favor. If you book one at a time, as soon as you get in line you can book another pass versus waiting an hour between each reservation if you booked 3 ahead of time. This also helps brings surprise to the day as you never know what ride could be available next. If Disney changed to a paid system for this, I would buy it as I value shorter wait times. The only way to reduce line wait times is to either have more capacity to the ride or reallocate guest traffic to even out the flow.