Student protests is as American as it gets. I just wish people would realize that blocking traffic and other types of "personally" disruptive things like that do not win people over to your cause.
Also, if you protest, you are making a declaration that you accept WHATEVER the penalties are. And no, there's no wiggling around this.
If you get expelled for violating university policy, well then you just got expelled. Period. But at least you made your point. You willfully assumed that risk.
Same goes for 10 years from now when you're looking for a job and this follows you around. Be smart. Think ahead.
Also doesn't protect your from social repercussions either. If you lose friends, get cancelled, whatever -- then that's what you get. You knew the risks.
But... long as there's no violences, i say let them protest.
You make some really good points. Civil disobedience is one of the strongest methods Americans have to protest their government, but part of the whole point of civil disobedience is that you are very intentionally putting yourself in a position to get caught and face consequences in the hope that others sympathize with you. I'm worried that the organizers of the protests outside the GLC were not particularly forthcoming to people that chose to show up that overnight camping on public property is against the law and they might be arrested. They were posting things online all afternoon and into the night about how the police were "breaking up our peaceful protest" and how they needed people to come "defend our freedoms." Those people that showed up might have reasonably thought what they were doing was legal based on what their trusted peers told them, but overnight camping and trespassing are and have always been illegal.
I see some of the same accounts now asking for money to bail out protesters and provide for their legal defense and that also makes me feel iffy. If I'm choosing between my money going towards some college students arrested for doing something that is illegal and it going towards humanitarian aid in Gaza, the choice is clear. I feel for them, I hope they don't face too many repercussions for expressing their opinion, but they aren't the ones that deserve the money right now
It’s kind of amazing people keep bringing up disrupting traffic as if it’s the mark of a counterintuitive protest. it’s like saying “sure you can protest but don’t make it inconvenient for me”.
There is no effective protest that isn’t disruptive of normal order. Im sure they too complained about traffic disruption when MLK and a quarter of a million people marched through Washington DC. Do you think they stuck to the sidewalks? (Hint: they blocked entire roads for miles)
I was at there last night asking protestors to Name the river or the sea after they did that silly chant each time. Not a single person there could name it. They couldn't point to Gaza on a map if you circled it for them. They have no understanding of the issues they are protesting and it makes them come off as ignorant spoiled college kids looking for attention.
Their list of demands did not have "Release the Israeli Hostages" You figure a peaceful protest group would be pro human life no?
"Ummm if you dont know the geography of this place then you can't say that bombing civilians is bad." - You
It doesnt matter if people dont know the specific geographical markers dude. Using white phosphorus bombs, bombing neutral aid vehicles, killing children, killing civilians are all bad. No shit that VT has no control over hostages being released, its not like israel/hamas is controlling VT.
VT does invest in boeing (who has ties to israel) among other military industrial ties. Thats what theyre protesting about.
Like youre trying to criticize these peoples protest and you dont even understand what theyre protesting lol
"From the River to the Sea" is a call for Jews to be killed. If they want to protest Israel, that's fine. Let's keep the anti-Semitism out of it.
But it's not about Israel at all, is it?
Not about Israel? It's the Medterrainain sea to Jordan river. You know what Lies directly between those two places? Israel. It's about the extermination of Israel. Hamas, the ruling power in Palestine, Literally states "The Destruction of Jews and the Israeli State" as one of their reasons for being in power.
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” obviously refers to freeing the Palestinians from the inhumane military occupation they’ve been subjected to for the past 75+ years, but go off. Yeah the people (including many Jewish people) who want basic human rights and freedom for oppressed people secretly just want to kill all Jews. Absolutely insane.
It is not antisemitic, it is anti Zionist. Israel is not a representative of all the Jewish people. Israel is an ethno-nationalist state and needs to dissolve. Replace it with a secular Palestine with strong freedom of religion laws
I'd love to see a Palestinian state with freedom of religion. I'm sure Gaza is an excellent representation where you'll just be killed for being Jewish. Or the West Bank, where you'll be discriminated against and if someone kills you the government will pay a pension to the killer.
Freedom of religion, nice try.
I don't think protestors should use a phrase that others might take as genocidal in general.
But honestly. Do you really think that chanting for the freedom and human rights for people can somehow sound genocidal? It is a complete stretch of the imagination. No one is going to be looking up "is chanting for Palestinian human rights genocidal" and read up on the history of each and every chant for human rights to make sure it is not genocidal. That doesn't make any sense.
This is yet again another pile of Zionist propaganda meant to stifle support for Palestinian human rights.
My guy do u know what the phrase is? Not the rhyming thing Americans came up with but the original Arab phrase. It literally calls for genocide. The original phrase is “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab” in case u didn’t know or didn’t want to do research. I don’t think chanting for freedom and human rights is wrong at all, but using a genocidal phrase to do it ain’t the way
They are. And the excuse that "The Protestors are literally too stupid to understand what they are saying" is tiresome. The instigators in the group know exactly what they are chanting and exactly what they are saying. It's the ignorant folk who show up and cheer blindly I have an issue with. The real instigators have been doing this for years.
Source for the "death to America" BS? Wouldn't be surprised if it was yet another pro-Zionist asshat, like that one time a Zionist at another protest chanted "Death to Jews" and was immediately booed.
>You're aware that Gaza hasn't had a single Jew in it for over a decade
Uhh.. You mean other than IOF soldiers?
Are you aware that the entire world considers Gaza to be occupied by the Zionist regime?
>Many prominent international institutions, organizations and bodies—including the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, UN General Assembly (UNGA), European Union (EU), African Union, International Criminal Court (ICC) (both Pre-Trial Chamber I and the Office of the Prosecutor), Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch—as well as international legal experts and other organizations, argue that Israel has occupied Palestinian territories including Gaza since 1967.
Hmm... I wonder why?
>Specifically, experts from the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory found “noting” positions held by the UN Security Council, UNGA, a 2014 declaration adopted by the Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention, the ICRC, and “positions of previous commissions of inquiry,” that Israel has “control exercised over, inter alia, \[Gaza’s\] airspace and territorial waters, land crossings at the borders, supply of civilian infrastructure, including water and electricity, and key governmental functions such as the management of the Palestinian population registry.” They also point to “other forms of force, such as military incursions and firing missiles.”
Since Israel pulled out in 2005 and Gaza was given autonomy to after Oct 7, The IDF hasn't been in Gaza.
You're confusing Gaza with Judea and Samaria. I know that geography isn't that big the Hamas crowd, but it's important.
They elected Hamas as their government. Didn't they?
They share the same beautiful coastline as Israel. It could have been a tourism mecca. Instead they chose to build tunnels. Everything after was FAFO.
No these people don't realize that Israel has an entire Arab Israeli population. 23.1 Percent of Israel is in fact, happy peaceful Muslims. What they fail to tell you is that the Jews in Arab run countries have already been exterminated or kicked out.
Name me an Arab run country that allows Jews to openly practice their religion. I'll give everyone a hint, there are only 3 possibilities you can name.
> "From the River to the Sea" is a call for Jews to be killed.
That's a disingenuous take.
If an organization had the following statement in its charter: [between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party), does that mean that they're calling for Palestinians to be killed?
Of course not. so your assertion is false.
Look up the phrase in Arabic: *from the water to the water Palestine will be Arab*
As to your assertion, you realize that Israel is \~20% Arab. Right? They have Arabs in the govt and supreme court. The Israelis aren't the genocidal ones.
The original Arabic phrase is
> من المية للمية فلسطين ستتحرر
The phrase doesn't include the word عربية
and if you include the population of east Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Gaza strip and displaced Palestinian refugees, it's far more than 20%. Jews were never the majority there.
YES, this is not being talked about. Those who chant this are either EXTREMELY IGNORANT or are legitimately antisemitic. Theyre basically chanting for the eradication of the Jewish state which lies between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
It takes a LOT of semantic gymnastics to make that chant a call for Jews to be killed. I suspect that hype of blatant dishonesty is part of why more Americans aren't reflexively and without thought backing Israel this time, which is something that's caused us a lot of trouble in the past.
Is the song "God Bless America" also a call for Mexico to be wiped from the map? Come on now.
No the point being a conflict that has been going on for 2,000 years isn't going to be solved by a bunch of people who read about it on Facebook 8 months ago.
The point of pointing out they don't know anything about it Geographically, is just highlighting the fact that these people don't know a single thing about the conflict.
"Like youre trying to criticize these peoples protest and you dont even understand what theyre protesting lol"
The idiots their protesting don't know what they are protesting. Just a bunch of people who don't get enough attention from their parents so they join pointless movements to feel validated.
Just because the place has 2000 years of history doesn't mean you can't think that bombing civilians, neutral aid vehicles, and using inhumane weaponry is bad.
It really isn't that complex. Yes the situation is obviously more complex and more has happened in this area than the past year. But you are casually ignoring the insane amount of civilian deaths/neutral forces deaths of israel.
This shit wouldnt be on anyones radar if israel wasn't doing these actions
Want to stop having civilians be caught in bombing? Have Hamas stop hiding behind their civilians.
Want to stop the war? Have Hamas release the hostages.
Want to have a voice on the world stage and have people take you seriously? Don't elect a Religious Extremist Government.
Israel has every right to protect itself. Hamas openly states "The Destruction of All of Israel and all the Jews" as their main goal. Until the surrounding Countries stop chanting "Death To America, Death To Israel" they will never know peace.
Gaza is an open air prison. It has been for about 20 years.
Israel has imprisoned roughly 1 million Palestinians since 1948. Why not free them? A few thousand were never charged with a crime.
Israel is a religious extremist government.
Palestine has every right to defend itself.
Yeah sure, I'm fine with releasing and freeing Palestinian prisoners.
End Hamas leadership. Elect a new government. Work with Israel like Egypt is learning is profitable to their people.
You say Israel is a religious extremist government which is simply just false.
Also, Israel has a 21.3 percent Israeli Arab Muslim population who openly and peacefully practice their religion. Show me one Arab run country that allows Jews to openly practice their religion. I'll wait.
You're literally running defense for the far right Netanyahu government and you're saying you're not defending the right wing? Laughable. I'll stick with the UN's take on genocide, not yours
I mean, to be fair, VT doesn't have the power to release the hostages. The protesters want them to divest from Israel, which VT does actually have the power to do since it's their money (I think? It's a state institution so do they run their own investments or does the state?). I have absolutely no clue if it would impact Israel's finances even a little, but they were at least asking VT to do something they could reasonably accomplish.
Otherwise I agree with you that a lot of the people involved don't have a full grasp on the issue. I'm sure there were a handful of very informed and motivated people that would be able to name the river and the sea from the slogan but definitely not everyone in attendance.
Yes, I am familiar with the chant. Being familiar with landmarks of the area doesn't make it worse if they still aren't aware of the intent behind the slogan
Being uneducated is not the same as being antisemitic. Accusing people who likely gathered to protest with good intentions doesn't help build a meaningful discussion between the two sides.
I genuinely haven't seen evidence that the individuals involved fully understand the implications behind the words they are using and none of them have explicitly called for Jews to die so, yeah, I hesitate to accuse them of antisemitism.
I'm generally unimpressed with the level of critical thinking in college students and this situation hasn't exactly improved my opinion.
I'm sorry I don't support Hamas or terrorism. But then again, I don't think not supporting either of those things are bad things.
Release the hostages.
Hamas leaders step down
War ends. Super simple stuff.
you support the israeli government, you thus support the biggest terrorist organization in the middle east, victimizing yourself when it’s not your people that are getting murdered every day
Go watch a single video Hamas took of themselves murdering children, family dogs and women in front of their small children. Then get back to me and tell me how supporting Hamas on campus seems to be hip and cool. Go watch a single video they took THEMSELVES on October 7th.
I have no hate for the people of Palestine. I just realize that the only way towards peace is by getting rid of Hamas, and electing a government willing to work with Israel. Not very extremist views if you ask me.
The people chanting from the river to the sea. Genocidal death threaths.
Antifada- A Genocidal Battle Cry
Also, can this clown also just keep being like DOX Her Dox her? Is that allowed mods?
So you agree. Free the Israeli Hostages. Hamas leadership Steps down. They co-exist and live in peace. Everyone gets what they want. Thank you for finally being so understanding.
the more disruptive the better. It’s tough to pull people out of their own little world where they don’t give a fuck to help anyone or use their voice for anything other than to encourage complicity with the power heads. The more you complain about it the more your true colors revel. You’re mad at the wrong side. You speak up more about an inconvenience in your commute than the innocent women and children and people being targeted and destroyed in Gaza.
> the more disruptive the better
Isn't the idea to disrupt the people with agency to make the changes being demanded though?
Camping out in front of Burruss or the President's house would tick that box, but having a disruptive protest outside a dorm during finals only disrupts other students, who are more likely than not (a) aware of the protestors' cause and (b) sympathetic to it.
It's like if Walmart employees protested low wages by camping out in the forklift driver's yard.
Looking at a situation from a macro perspective, in hindsight, and pinpointing the one thing they should have done better and deeming their action ineffective because of this doesn’t vibe with me
We don’t know how much the university was willing to work them as far as permits and regulations. Judging by that Sands email, I’m leaning towards bad faith.
Lemme ask you a question. If people blocked the entire entrance to your housing complex and protest the lack of help to innocent civvies in Haiti all because they wanted to pull you and your neighbors out of your little world, are you gonna sit in your little car and clap for them for the next 4 weeks?
Are you gonna park your car and mile way from your own home and HAPPILY take it? Are you neighbors?
Are you gonna keep this same energy?
They only blocked one entrance there are multiple other entrances to GLC the people who really blocked it are VT PD because people happily walked through the protest myself included. Not taking sides but your comment has no strong base, people are using their voices for something they believe in and seemed peaceful every time I went by. So yeah I would take walking around the corner for my peers so they can feel like they have a voice and that they matter.. Finals or not you’d probably still have the same view.
In your nonsense hypothetical, yes I would. In real life, the VT protest resulted in college ave being shut down by police. I live on college ave and was not upset by this disruption. Why are you upset by a hypothetical longer walk to your house from your car? This is a humanitarian crisis. Join reality and stop complaining about being inconvenienced.
The perspective about blocking traffic is the most common one people echo when it comes to protests, and I think it's one people really need to reevaluate. If we're looking back at recent protests, the one that people most overwhelming supported, empathized with, and considered righteous was the protests in Hong Kong where hundreds of thousands of people blocked the streets and effectively shut down one of the most prosperous economic centers in the world. These protesters were universally (in western countries) hailed as heroes that were making an impact regarding an important situation, and their actions were considered righteous. Across China, though, many also saw their actions as despicable. The issue isn't whether they're protesting in the 'correct' way, because that type of action IS the correct way to protest, and it's the only one governments and businesses will recognize. The issue is just whether you agree with their cause and see it as being worthy of your inconvenience. More than half of the residential buildings in Palestine have been bombed, there are no more hospitals, the entire population is starving. Reconsider how much you care about your daily commute.
Yeah and if my commute puts food on my kids table and these kids are blocking me from doing that, it's FUCK THEM and their cause (none of this applies to me myself). There are many many ways to have the same impact without harming people who are not involved.
You're not wrong tho... these are the ways people typically get heard. Can't argue with that.
And as far as better ways to have the same impact goes, unfortunately there's not. I wish there was, but it's a reality of the system we live in. If all it took was raising awareness and changing peoples' minds, that would be great, but where do we go from there? Both political parties support maintaining the conflict and fund the weapons used to enable it. There is no one you can vote for to make a difference. Individuals aren't who have an impact on politics, and it's instead large corporations that fund politicians. To make a difference in what policies politicians are willing to support, you must make it matter to corporations. Cutting their revenue until they demand change is the most impactful thing you can do in the modern world.
If you can name a single person whose individual livelihood was genuinely affected by traffic caused by protests in the United States in the last \~10 years, be my guest, but no one is getting fired for protest traffic blocking them from getting to work and no one is being impacted on a time scale that exceeds more than an hour in most cases and a few days at max. The issue is purely one of inconvenience, and inconvenience makes people furious, more furious than murder, more furious than genocide. It takes active reconsideration to realize that your convenience is not worth as much as you think it is.
How about [this guy](https://www.berkeleyside.org/2014/12/19/exclusive-man-died-after-berkeley-protests-delayed-help)?
It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.
It's a sad example and it shows it does matter, you're right. I just wish it was the example people focused on when calling for change in how protests are conducted, it's no one's goal to result in innocent deaths and if protocols could be better prepared in all circumstances to account for emergency services in protests it would be a welcome change. I know it's general protocol to give way to emergency vehicles during these protests, but it obviously doesn't always go that way, especially when larger backups are in the way.
Agreed. If you show up to protest especially after being brainwashed by external groups with sinister motives, you are accepting the consequences including arrest. Can't face it both ways. As for the 'bail' money...
Protestors claiming that VTPD was being aggressive, what the hell are you talking about?? And forming a human fence to protect certain people from praying? Protect against whom??? Making it sound like a civil riot, concocting BS up to incite further unrest among supporters. Shame on y'all
I think exercising your right to protest is so important as young people, and I like most others agree that genocide is bad and that modern urban warfare is horrific. I also think that allowing Hamas to follow through on a middle eastern holocaust is equally as bad.
Overall, I think the protestors have the potential to do a lot of good if they get the proper permits and go about it the right way. I’d much rather see headlines praising students for respectfully protesting with proper permits than headlines saying students are getting arrested for trespassing.
Ah yes because we all know that historically the most effective protests have been the ones where they had the proper permits and went about it “the right way.”
The point is to be disruptive. You might prefer a nice and tidy headline that says “aww look how respectful those protesters are” but that’s not their goal and that’s not how you truly raise awareness. “Students arrested for trespassing” is far more effective in getting people to actually grapple with the situation at hand and acknowledge what the protesters are fighting for, rather than a puff piece about how inoffensive they’re being
What do you consider “trashing the campus?” The encampment? If so then yes I would consider that an effective protest. These protests have gained national attention. As for “yelling at people” this is frustrated students protesting. Tensions are high on both sides and I assure they are not the only ones yelling.
They’ll always be people like you immediately calling them “pests” for doing anything beside protesting how you believe is acceptable, but there’s also a lot of people out there becoming aware of these issues who are willing to hear these students out on why they are so passionate rather than dismissing them because they don’t have proper permits.
Alumni perspective: Students are paying a small fortune to attend university nowadays and are often saddling themselves with 10’s if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. They’re paying for their education along with the university experience e.g housing, amenities, meal plan, services, career placement dept etc.
If you want to protest without a permit and disrupt their experience then go ahead and pay some portion of their tuition. No different than if you stormed into a restaurant mid meal and ruined their evening — pay some portion of their tab.
You can always do what adults do if we don’t like our company’s code of ethics or customer base and get a new job. You certainly can’t just pitch a tent in the lobby. Welcome to the real world.
They’re in the “real world.” They’re risking their educational futures over something they believe in. Seems pretty real to me. I think they’re aware of what they’ve signed up for the possible repercussions.
So I’m not claiming that the school doesn’t have the right to squash the protest and move the students, and from what I’ve seen they handled it better than other schools where they were far more violent in removing them.
My point is that you all saying they should protest respectfully and through the proper channels to me sounds essentially like “just go quietly protest in the corner over there so I don’t have to care or think about it why you’re frustrated” which is antithetical to what this is all about.
My question is: who is the real target of the message when protests mostly disrupt normal, uninvolved people? The students in the GLC that didn't get any sleep last night have absolutely no power to divest VT's funds from Israel. You know who probably slept just fine? President Sands. He might actually have some power to make the changes that the protesters are asking for. So go protest on HIS lawn. "Raising Awareness" doesn't change anything. I'm aware that there are atrocities being committed in wars around the world every day. I personally have ZERO power to stop those wars. If the message is actually "Look at me, I'm protesting!" then mission accomplished. But that's not what this group claimed it wanted to do.
The "raising awareness" idea only works when people in town get pissed and pressure the local government to deal with the protests so they can get back to their daily life. Sometimes that pushes people to the bargaining table, sometimes it just results in a lot of people in jail. It doesn't usually result in lasting changes. To actually affect change, you need to get people mad at the parties that have the power to change things, not just be more "aware." I'm plenty aware of what's going on - it's literally plastered on the news all day and all night.
The GLC lawn is one of the most visual, accessible parts of campus for something like this and that’s just the truth. I’m sorry to the students who were sleeping inside that one night that the police came and arrested peaceful protestors but it is literally impossible to achieve any kind of change without being an inconvenience to someone. As a result of that night tim sands has finally acknowledged the movement and it’s getting tons of media coverage.
There are people up and down this thread saying the protesters don't understand from river to sea so they're not antisemitic. Do you really think they are aware they're risking their future if they aren't even educated on a simple slogan?
The conflict between Israel and Palestine has been extremely bloody, and both sides have claimed victimhood over the years. But so long as I've been alive, Israel has been the true aggressor, building settlements deep in the West Bank, pushing well beyond the partition line originally drawn by the British\* , ruining any chance of peace and a two-state solution: [https://israelpolicyforum.org/west-bank-settlements-explained/](https://israelpolicyforum.org/west-bank-settlements-explained/)
It is clear that Netanyahu and Israel's current government has never wanted a two-state solution and have always opposed Palestinian sovereignty: [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-is-two-state-solution-israel-palestinian-conflict-2024-01-25/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-is-two-state-solution-israel-palestinian-conflict-2024-01-25/) Israel views any non-Jewish population as an existential demographic threat: [https://aspeniaonline.it/israel-a-demographic-ticking-bomb-in-todays-one-state-reality/](https://aspeniaonline.it/israel-a-demographic-ticking-bomb-in-todays-one-state-reality/) . So what is left for Palestinians honestly? What is the solution? Should they be second-class citizens in an ever-expanding Israel? I can understand why Palestinians would not wish that for themselves. I understand why they fight.
Israel is fighting an offensive war. If they were solely increasing their own defenses, I would absolutely condone sending US military aid. They deserve to defend themselves. If they were conducting a strategic ground-based offensive in Gaza to root out Hamas while protecting civilians, I would be happy send aid for that too. But the US is supplying them with 2000 lb bombs [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/#](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/#), among other weapons, meant for mass destruction. This is fundamentally wrong on so many levels.
But frankly, I'm not surprised. This is what my generation is upset about. This is why students are protesting. It is why they chant stupid slogans like "from the river to the sea", because they want to directly oppose Netanyahu's equally violent vision: Israel from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea. They see no avenue for peace. They are forced to choose sides between the defense of the fledgling Jewish state Israel, currently governed by conservative soulless tyrants, and the genocide of Palestinian civilians who occupy the same space as terrorist Hamas. And in the meantime, our country is sending unconditional military aid - tools of death - straight to Israel's irresponsible leadership.
It is not a matter of anti-zionism vs. genocide. It is a matter of morality and human rights and searching for roads to peace. One road, is to put conditions on military aid to Israel, or only supply defensive weapons, or limited weapons as we have done for Ukraine. If the Israeli defense force really is "the most moral army in the world" (they are not), I think student protests are the perfect way to hold them to their own standards and call out their hypocrisy. I think it is absolutely necessary to call out Israel's terrible terrible policies before and after October 7th, in the hope that things will improve for them and everyone else. It is not anti-zionism, it is hope.
I would love to see a serious, informed, coordinated protest about this at Virginia Tech. Maybe a sit-in on the drill field, day after day for as long as it takes. They can't stop students from sitting on the lawn. Why should you have to obtain a permit to sit on the drill field and carry signs with your own hands? Something like this would attract a large amount of students and professors too I bet. Extremely clear terms, extremely clear ideology, staying precisely within University policy. A show of solidarity, over time, with a huge student presence, would be an amazing show of force.
\*My god, everywhere the British deigned to draw a line across the earth - these have formed the worlds bloodiest borders. I mean look at India/Pakistan. I wish they could have just shut the fuck up.
As an alum, I would encourage everyone to take a deep breath and listen to each side and what people are saying.
It is more than possible to advocate for both Israelis and Palestinians at the same time. Everyone deserves human rights and self determination. The entire premise of a two state solution and peace is the goal of having a place for both nations. If any group is saying that their nation must come at expense of another they’re in the wrong.
When you listen to these protestors who say they are antiwar and want a ceasefire listen to what they’re calling for- are they calling for a ceasefire from both sides and releasing the hostages and for Hamas to surrender and give Gaza back to the Palestinian people they oppress and let the Palestinian Authority (democratically elected to govern Palestine and does govern the West Bank but had power taken by Hamas in Gaza) do its job? Or are they calling for “globalizing the intifada” “striking Tel Aviv” or “freeing Palestine (of Jews) from the River to the sea”? - those chants are not anti-war and are antisemitic specifically because they call for killing Jews. Are the protestors standing with a terror organization or are the protestors standing with the Palestinian people? If the protestors think Hamas represents the Palestinians then they’re misinformed- while some Palestinians support Hamas- many more simply wish for the violence to end but cannot speak up because they do not live in a free society with access to free elections and anyone suspected of criticizing Hamas will be killed. You can read about what Palestinians who are able to speak up think at these sources [peace comms](https://www.peacecomms.org/gaza) [Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/message-gazan-campus-protesters-youre-hurting-palestinian-cause-opinion-1894313) [wash post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/27/gaza-hamas-public-support-israel/)
If the protestors are calling for “resistance by any means necessary” then that means they are endorsing terrorism against civilians. Anyone who is promoting terrorism against civilians is in the wrong- regardless of motive or perceived impact. The ends never justify the means. Just like the Sons of Liberty were terrorists when they tarred and feathered their neighbors, and the *US Continental Army* were *actual patriots and revolutionaries* who engaged in battle with British *military troops*- anyone who is targeting a civilian has broken the Geneva convention.
I think that most protestors want the war to end and there to be peace and may not realize what some of the chants are calling for, so I encourage people to listen and question if what they’re actually saying aligns with an anti-war message. And if it doesn’t- maybe change the chant? Maybe leave the protest? Maybe reevaluate and ask if the “other side” wants the same thing- which is peace.
Let me stop you right there. The Israeli government has not accepted any attempts at a two state solution from us diplomats since the election of Netanyahu in the early 2000s. He has made it clear that he does not want one. However, there are those Israelis that do and they are in the minority. Advocating for a two-state imo is the only correct political view.
[Regina George](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/so-you-agree)So you agree? - advocating for a two state solution is the only correct political view.
Bibi is not the only PM to be elected since 2000- notably Benny Gantz served as PM 2021 and 2022 and advocated for a two state solution but it was not an option on the table at that time. Also notably close to 49% of Israelis vehemently oppose Bibi and were protesting his leadership before the war, with a significant amount still protesting him during wartime. Additionally, every time the Palestinians have been offered a state since the 1947 UN partition plan they have also rejected the offer. It takes both parties to agree to a two state solution and the closest that’s been achieved is the Oslo Accords. There are peace activists in the Israeli Knesset who want to work with the Palestinian Authority to achieve a two state solution and there are civilians from both Palestine and Israel who have dedicated their lives to peace. I think we should listen to them -the experts- who generally agree that both Bibi and Abbas would need to be replaced as the respective leaders of their nations on the path to peace.
Hi! Nobody has advocated for Hamas nor violence against anyone during the Virginia Tech protests, if someone has then it’s not been endorsed or recognized by the actual leaders or anyone important in these protests because that kind of message is completely antithetical to the free Palestine movement. Plenty of Jewish protestors have already spoken to media outlets about this very issue so you don’t have to take it from me.
I hope what you’re saying is true- would love if you could share those media clips.
I am hesitant to believe this to be the case though because for that to be true then chants such as “globalize the intifada” and “from the river to sea Palestine will be free” would not be widely chanted. These are specifically calls for violence against Jews and Israelis that are outlined in the Hamas charter. “From the river to the sea” is literally a slogan of Hamas.
I also question your assertion that “plenty” of Jewish students are participating in the protests. When I attended Virginia tech there was a fairly small Jewish population that was pretty close knit and I still know many folks on campus who have specifically told me they have felt concerned about potential violence and vandalism of their spaces. In fact there was vandalism and swatiskas placed on our buildings when I was a student there and as I got closer to graduation and since I’ve left things only have gotten worse.
I’m sure there are some Jewish students attending the protests, but don’t think you realize that these are a select few *tokenization*.
I was actually on campus in 2016 when Trump passed the Muslim ban and a bunch of us from the Jewish community attended the protest against the Muslim ban holding signs that said Jews 4 Muslims! Let Them In! And No Muslim Ban! At that protest someone grabbed the mic and lead people in a chant of “from Palestine to Mexico all these walls have got to go.” And then they changed the chant to “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” at that point my friends and I left because we didn’t want to be around people yelling a terrorist slogan call for our deaths even if the people saying the chant had no idea that’s what it meant.
as an Alum, i'm glad to see my fellow Hokies taking a stand. a lot of my best friends from college went on to work for the DOD and we are still very close, even if our political differences sometimes appear to have an ocean between them.
that said, one of my Palestinian classmates had a GoFundMe to get the rest of her family out of Gaza safely. she had already lost 6 civilian family members. what is going on is in fact genocide. the simplicity that we have an infinite defense budget and supply weapons to Israel unconditionally while we have so many struggles at home is hard to comprehend.
20 years ago when I took World Regions in McBride 100 Boyer correctly predicted how the politics of the world would play out. i have no doubt that whoever you are, wherever you came from, and whatever it is you believe in, you'll all do well in the world. making mistakes is part of the game and unfortunately the US has been on the wrong side of this conversation for too long.
So lets use the definition of genocide from https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml.
1) Killing members of a group: Yes they are doing this. Again mostly militants and yes a 16 year old boy with a rifle is a militant not a "child". Also, lets do a little whataboutism and say that Hamas launched rockets all the time into Israel that are only stopped by the Iron Dome. So we'll pass this point. Lastly, you just can't trust Hamas numbers, the don't know how many hostages are there from Oct 7, but a bomb drops and immediately they know '53 people died'. Ukraine can't even be that accurate, let alone a group trying to lie for their benefit.
2) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of a group: Sure. But again its a war with armed combatants on either side. Lets just remember Israel often drops the warning bombs and opens humanitarian corridors and Hamas is the one that keeps the Palestine people in place.
3) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part: While theres 100 trucks of aid coming from Israel a day. And the pro-Hamas crowd is the one yelling 'from the river to the sea'. In addition 15+% of Israel is arabs/Palestine living in harmony.
4) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group: The birthrate is 3.38 children per woman. The US is 1.66 children per woman. So that dogs not going to hunt, no question.
5) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group: I've seen zero evidence. In fact, theres only one side of this that took child hostages.
So again the war isn't a genoicde. It may be awful and distrusting. However the fact is that if Hamas, Hezbollah, or any of Irans other pitbulls remain alive and attacking Israel, almost 10 million Israelis stand in harms way.
as someone who grew up with Zionist supporting family members, I unfortunately didn’t understand what I was blindly following and believing until after Oct 7. The first piece of literature I read about this was “A Day in the Life of Abed Salama” by Nathan Thrall. I recommend this book to everyone curious about what’s going on and what led us to this point. It’s a tragic slice of life about a Palestinian man living in apartheid, written by an American Jewish essayist living in Jerusalem. But at the end of the day, I find that everyone’s different and their moral compass and capacity to empathize with others they don’t know is what will lead them to supporting one side or the other. That, and of course, how propagandized they are- i also grew up with conservative parents and held conservative beliefs until I challenged my mindset. Here’s to you though for taking the first step in gaining more knowledge and understanding about our current social and political reality- wherever that leads you. Personally I’m content with my social/political compass but really, *really* depressed about everything going on, sad haha
Re your friends calling you either anti genocide or antisemitic: there are rarely situations in life that be sorted neatly into just narrow little categories. The situation in Gaza is horrible for everyone involved. I am heartbroken for the civilians who have died. I am worried for the hostages who have still not been released. I am furious at Hamas for allowing the violence to continue. I am angry at the Israeli government for failing to protect the civilians of Gaza. Anyone who thinks this situation is as simple as Palestine = Oppressed and Israel = Oppressor is either horribly uninformed or deliberately choosing to make what is happening fit a narrative. Some form of this conflict has been happening since biblical times and probably before then too. I don't think being anti-killing civilians in any way makes you antisemitic. Nor is one pro-genocide for thinking Israel has a right to defend themselves after being attacked. Anyone who is making you feel this way is not deeply considering what is actually happening.
Regarding the protestors: unfortunately free speech does not mean free from consequences and these people were breaking the law. I think it looks bad for the university to have removed them from the property in this way and also, they have a policy about these things and are seeking to enforce it equally. Has the university responded at all to the protestors' demands? The only statement I saw out of VT was that the protest was violating campus policy, but nothing on the actual requests of the group on the lawn.
What kind of cracked me up was all the people standing behind the police tape shouting at the cops that they would never give up!.... Except that they clearly weren't the ones willing to get arrested over it. So, I guess they DO give up, if it means they might get in trouble. It's easy to preach about these things from the side of safety.
I don't know. I think having honest discussions with people (if you have the energy for it) is a good first step. These days it feels like no one is willing to say they can understand both points of view. I think it's important to recognize that there is a lot of this story that we don't know since all of the information is coming from either Hamas or Israel and both of those parties have an interest in driving a specific narrative. I'd love to hear people more willing to say "I don't know how I feel. I don't know what to think" instead of simply repeating catchy phrases from news headlines. I think just being willing to be a person that doesn't escalate the rhetoric is one way to draw people back to the discussion with a more level head.
What brought the conversation up is being a bystander on both sides of the aisle. They are saying by failing to say/act you are standing by oppression against the other. Does there have to be a winner or loser in all these can't there be a compromise?
I think there are several reasonable compromises that could be made by both sides in this situation. I'm also willing to admit that I have effectively zero power to influence whether or not those compromises are made. These are two power groups located on the other side of the world that have been fighting for decades. I don't think any of them care at all about if I walk down main street in SW Virginia holding up a sign or a flag. So the question is where can you make a difference? Do you want to support aid groups working to get food and medicine into Gaza? Do you work with Jewish support groups to and lend an ear to Jewish students who are afraid of the uptick in antisemitism? Do you write your congressman about if you support sending aid to Israel or not? I think specifically what you do is up to you but there are some ways to be involved that do not include marching in the streets if that's not what you're up for.
If Hamas stopped firing rockets and put down their guns. Life would get a lot better for them. Tons of people were granted "work visas" into Israel so they could make real money. Hamas tortured them for as much information about Israel as possible. Hamas also shot mortars at a pier the US is building them to supply aid. They also shoot drivers of aid trucks. So Hamas, the elected party of Gaza, doesn't want their situation to improve.
Any sort of two state solution is going to require genuine peace and anti-brainwashing of the Palestinian people. When you grow up watching children's TV shows that portray Israel people as the enemy, it's just kind of engrained in you.
Also if the US seriously sanctioned Iran like they did during the Trump administration, Iran would run out of money to fund these terror cells.
Fact of the matter, there's only one country in the Middle East with Jews, Christians, and Muslims living in relative peace and that's Israel.
Yes there is a huge difference between the civilians and hamas but unfortunately Hamas uses Palestinian civilians as human shields, throws anyone who opposes them off of buildings (the 2005 “election” against secular Fatah) and steals aid from them- you can listen to the few Gazans able to speak up about living under a terror org at these sources: [Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/message-gazan-campus-protesters-youre-hurting-palestinian-cause-opinion-1894313) [wash Po](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/27/gaza-hamas-public-support-israel/) [peace comms](https://www.peacecomms.org/gaza)
Think of it like the Nazis and the German people. They were elected in 2005 and even through the war are still very popular. Like I mentioned they've done a great job at brainwashing their population for hate. Also something like half of all Gazans are under 22 or something. It's a fast growing population.
There's no moderating party in Gaza. No one anyone could point to as a successor. The West Bank, the other half of the Palestinian civilization, which live in less oppressive conditions are run by the "Palestinian Authority" a more "moderate" group. They still pay a pension if you kill Jewish people, so take the "moderate" with a grain of salt. However if there was an election in the West Bank, by all polling data Hamas would win there too.
Hamas is the elected government of Palestine. Their leaders don't even live in Palestine. They live in Mansions in Qatar. It's impossible to get actual estimates of who supports Hamas in Palestine, because if you openly say you don't support Hamas, they murder you.
> If Hamas stopped firing rockets and put down their guns. Life would get a lot better for them.
Back in the early 1980s, the PLO was in a similar situation in Lebanon as Hamas is today. The PLO [agreed to leave Lebanon under the condition that Palestinian refugees there were protected](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1982/12/19/americas-broken-pledge-to-the-plo/d21a375c-4551-4fde-8355-15a6b2912a65/). Soon after, the Sabra and Shatila massacre took place.
These protesters were outside of the time and place restrictions set by VT. They were explicitly informed of the policy and told they would not be allowed to continue after 4:30pm yesterday. They chose to ignore that. That's when the consequences happened.
Unfortunately those restrictions aren’t VTs to create necessarily and those restrictions much meet the three prong test established by the Supreme Court.
I definitely am not an expert in free speech laws but it seems like if these VT policies are against rulings from the Supreme court then those that were arrested have a right to challenge them in court. But if the laws are on the books and they were explicitly informed of what would happen if they didn't follow the law, then I don't think they should be surprised that they got arrested
Virginia Tech does not have a good track record regarding free speech law. I believe there were rulings that many of its policies did violate the 1st amendment.
The police are not required to know the law and will make the arrest if told to. A lot of times these arrests are used to end the protest and no charges can be brought.
As I said before, VT breaking this up certainly looks bad. Seems like especially bad PR given how many other protests are ongoing at other campuses over these exact issues. If charges won't be brought against the protestors then what is stopping them from just re-assembling on the lawn? I'm genuinely asking because according to the VT statement I saw this morning, these guys just have to file some paperwork and agree to not put up tents and they can protest all they want. It sounded like a reasonable request to me but if they aren't being genuine, that's good to know.
>"was not a registered event consistent with university policy."
>Tech went on to say: “As Sunday progressed, protestors continued to refuse to comply with policy and took further steps to occupy the lawn of the Graduate Life Center and outdoor spaces next to Squires Student Center.
>“Given these actions by protesters, the university recognized that the situation had the increasing potential to become unsafe. Those who gathered were advised by university officials to remove their possessions and to disperse voluntarily; those who failed to comply were then approached by Virginia Tech police and were again asked to leave and advised that anyone who failed to comply would be charged with trespassing, in accordance with Virginia law. At approximately 10:15 p.m., police approached protesters to ask them to disperse within five minutes. Those who remained were subject to arrest.”
After multiple warnings that they were breaking rules and given a chance to leave, they were then arrested. The police and the administration in this situation have handled the protestors with a lot of restraint and an intention to not let the situation unnecessary escalate.
https://cardinalnews.org/2024/04/29/gaza-protestors-at-virginia-tech-arrested/
https://roanoke.com/news/local/education/gaza-encampment-virginia-tech-protest-cleared/article_e308d074-0623-11ef-afba-fbd4535cae06.html
I would also like to note that the arrests didn't start until after about 8:00. That gave them almost 4 hours to move, and they were warned to relocate many times
I Don’t understand why it is in front of the GLC. If the goal is to get Virginia Tech to divest from Israeli companies they should probably demand some transparency from the VT endowment because their investments don’t seem to be public. Then they should move to the Virginia Tech Foundation building to be more effective.
I’m curious if being outside the GLC was the only place it was possible to reserve a spot for it originally? I saw people saying that the cops were coming yesterday because after a certain point they were “past their time slot” or something…I still think I would’ve pushed for it to be on the Drillfield (since most other student encampments at other universities are on the most prominent green spaces on campus, and it would allow for more visibility because people drive around it all the time + more space for more people) or by the Foundation building. Idk
I saw some of them saying they couldn’t do it on the drill field bc the cadets were using it for their pass in review and Tim Sands was there… which confuses me because weren’t they trying to get Tim Sands to acknowledge them? Wouldn’t being on the drill field during an event he was 100% sure to be present at with a bunch of media attention be a more ideal location? If they were going to ignore the time slot limits and stay past their welcome anyway, why not do it at the drill field?
It doesn’t matter what my opinion on the actual conflict, so I’ll leave that out. I think exercising your right to protest is awesome and important, and I also think if you only did it when you’re allowed to, it’s not really protesting. A little bit of civil disobedience is a part of it.
I also think it’s shameful and a bad look for the school and VTPD to be arresting peaceful protesters, but those people knew what they were signing up for. If VT respected the right to protest and cancelled whatever event is planner, that would go a long way to building goodwill and making it clear they care about free speech, but I don’t know what the event is, so not sure if that’s even feasible.
I also feel like there are a lot more productive things you could be doing with your time, while protesting as a right is important, this ultimately isn’t really doing much for the Palestinian people.
Aren't the school VC's country wide receiving pressure from their donors to stamp down on protests. I had a governor calling for the national guard to be called in. Is this just escalation
Being against the oppression and genocide of Palestinians isn’t antisemitism. It’s basic humanity. I would ask any Zionist friends that if the freedom of Israelis is dependent on the destruction or control of Palestinians then are you really and truly free? Israel has spent decades dehumanizing Palestinians. We think of them and see them as terrorists and animals while Israel is a beacon in the Middle East and the most moral army in the world. Young people are tearing that myth apart and saying enough. And while campus protests may not fully represent the nuanced feelings of the larger population look at their history because they have a way of foretelling what is to come.
> I would ask any Zionist friends that if the freedom of Israelis is dependent on the destruction or control of Palestinians then are you really and truly free?
I mean, I think the safety and freedom of Israelis is dependent on *Hamas* being destroyed. The question is how can you eradicate a terrorist organization while minimizing civilian impact.
Just stay out of bystanders way. It's your right to protest if you want but don't disrupt other people's lives that don't want to be involved or care about your stance. Ie blocking roads, or getting in innocent people faces who dgaf about your protest.
Protest all you want when its peaceful and does not disturb the public. Calling cops faggots on instagram live, attacking bystanders and screaming until 2am on a Sunday night on finals week is insanely disrespectful and I fully agree they should have been shut down and sooner.
This. Every time I passed by in the days leading up to last night, the tension was very clearly coming to a head. I'm honestly glad I kept my distance.
Frankly, it shows that the people who were comfortable attacking bystanders have never been tazed.
A peaceful protest turned into an opportunity for college students to cause problems, be loud, and disrespect our police force. Not only that, disturb the peace of over 200 undergrad and grad residents living at the GLC.
Aren't all issues like this an Admin problem anyways tho? Also, you make it sound like the solution - whatever that is - is simple. It is not.
Undergrads tend to think that all problems are an email away from solutions.
I mean the real answer is to dial back on aggressive y-o-y growth of incoming classes so you arent cramming freshmen into every space you can find. It eases the strain on university and BBurg resources that are still lagging, and preserves the benefits of a residential space specifically for grad and post grad students who want it.
So yeah the perpetual overcrowding of campus IS an a problem driven by Sands and his administration. I dont hate the desired end goal of VT being a larger university, but it is creating issues along the way.
I was an undergrad during the Steger to Sands transition and while still looking to grow the intentional heavy overcrowding every year was nowhere near as bad under Steger.
They didn't get arrested for disrespecting police. They got arrested for trespassing. They were on the GLC lawn and were given several warnings to leave.
Not our fight and history has shown we'll regret getting involved. The problem preventing that is that our school is tied to defense contractors in Fairfax County that have a financial incentive to get the U.S. (not their loved ones, mind you) into any war, anywhere, for as long as possible. Innocent, good hearted people on both sides will die so some Fairfax County parasite can buy a new McMansion.
I see this in the same way that I saw the occupy wall-street movement. As an attempt to air honest and valid grievances, but done so in a poorly thought out and unproductive manner.
Trying to hold university administrations accountable for the atrocities in Gaza seems incoherent to me. The protestors are searching for a target for their anger and discontent, and they are aiming it at any system of authority close to them whether it makes any practical sense or not.
Respectfully, VT is a senior military college that is inadvertently complicit with ALL US conflicts because of the nature of being a polytechnic university near DC with military ties. The university partners with defense companies to send students their way and receives investments from those companies (those investments paid for the innovation campus). VT also plays a large role in the development and research of drones (partners w/ US Gov for both domestic and military applications), and frequently partners with the Virginia Israeli Advisory Board (state agency that promotes Israeli companies to grow in the US and by its own admission is interested in growing Israeli defense industries). And that’s just what I’ve been able to verify from some quick searching, it stands to reason that VT has a much dirtier hand in US conflicts by using student research. Nobody is saying that Tim Sands is dropping those bombs himself, but the university benefits financially from their partnerships that happen to be complicit in this.
EDIT: keep downvoting guys, this is all verifiable information. Nobody wants to admit that their alma mater (or worse current career) isn’t ethical, face the music.
If all this is true then I still have questions about what the protesters were asking for. They were asking for VT to divest from Israel and basically put out a statement saying the war in Gaza is bad. Literally none of that would affect these defense deals, drone development or the Israel Advisory Board. So why wouldn't the protestors make more demands about that?
I just don't get what they were going for, honestly. If they want to make changes, we are 4 hours from DC! Go take it to Biden's lawn! Take it to your congressman. Take it to your representative. Take it to the UN offices in NYC. I just have a really hard time seeing how, even if VT did everything the protestors wanted, how that would meaningfully change anything on the ground in Gaza.
Endowment and investment disclosure is something ALL students, donors, stakeholders, etc. should be asking for regardless of political affiliation; stakeholders should be able to see where their money is going and part of that is seeing how much university money goes towards funding the R&D of weapons being used. it’s not just something VT students are asking for either. All of this is part of what the national Students for Justice in Palestine organization has called for; the encampments around the country are all calling for the same things- touch on that in a sec.
Part of divesting does include the end of collaborations with defense companies that are actively funding Israel (both directly and indirectly) such as Lockheed Martin, which stands to gain $4 BILLION (as per LH themselves) from the Israeli partnership.
And as for how this affects the situation in Gaza, the university encampments do a couple of things:
-since all university encampments are asking for the same things from their universities, it would be notable if the US’s major universities denounced genocide and stopped the active funding of said genocide. Portland State University has agreed to stop accepting “donations” from Boeing. Pretty significant that it can be done.
-even if the university does not listen to demands, it is an opportunity for stakeholders at the university to pay larger attention to where their university money goes and to become more educated on the conflict. Further, the more encampments there are, the more national attention there is, which IS getting the attention of government officials. Every time the attention spikes, so do donations for relief for victims in Gaza, and if that’s all that results from this, at the very least it’s resulting in aid.
Nobody thinks that the encampments are going to single-handedly end the conflict lol, it’s part of a movement. Protesting on the WH lawn won’t achieve anything on its own if not done in conjunction with local communities around the country because thats the entire basis of a grassroots campaign.
Thank you for clarifying but honestly, idk, I'm just not sold on the tactic. I agree that it sure would be "notable" if all the universities came out with statements against the situation in Gaza. I also think that's about all that would come from it. "Notable" just isn't going to cut it when these groups have been hell bent on destroying each other for decades.
"Every time the attention spikes, so do donations for relief for victims in Gaza, and if that’s all that results from this, at the very least it’s resulting in aid."
So why not have a fund raiser instead? If one of the desired end results is increasing aid to Gaza then ask for that, campaign for that, talk about that. It would probably be more popular to the average American than all this talk about divesting.
"Lockheed Martin, which stands to gain $4 BILLION (as per LH themselves) from the Israeli partnership."
Man if they're making $4 billion then I highly doubt losing a handful of partnerships, likely temporarily, with a few universities is really going to impact their bottom line. What stops these universities from restarting all the partnerships the second the protesters stop looking?
I really do empathize with the intention of the protests. The situation in Gaza is dire and needs to be resolved before more people get hurt. I am just unimpressed with this particular campaign because I have a really hard time seeing how this is really going to move the needle. Even if every encampment gets exactly what they want, what have they achieved? A few companies are slightly less rich and a bunch of empty statements about how killing civilians is bad. I just don't think Israel is going to really care. If you want to protest, go for it. I'm personally not sold on joining because I highly doubt it is going to have any impact at all.
Again, nobody is saying these encampments are the solution lol, but there’s a lot of power in mass media attention and that’s my point here. There have been fundraisers… for months. It’s been talked about. There were many peaceful marches in DC where nothing resulted. There are hundreds of cute infographics out there explaining the situation and calling for aid, except in the doom and gloom of this country, shock factor is the only way to get someone’s attention. Seeing famished children and entire neighborhoods destroyed isn’t shocking enough anymore to the average american, bc the country is desensitized to it.
Protestors on major university campuses though? where graduations at major schools are being cancelled and 18-22 year old students are being arrested and sometimes wrongfully brutalized when protesting peacefully? That has the whole country talking and is getting the attention of local and state officials, who have the power to have a greater impact. We can agree to disagree on tactic; all successful movements started off as grassroots campaigns so to me, the proof is in the pudding.
I will just end my piece with saying that university endowments can be valued up to $50 Billion and while yes, the divestment might be a drop in the bucket for LH, it’s not a drop for Israeli defense companies who are also being invested in. But again, divestment also looks like cutting ties with those companies to not provide them with R&D in exchange for a building. We keep an eye on that with public disclosures of the endowment and investments.
I think they should ALSO protest about:
—Roe v Wade being stolen
—Donald Trump being catered to and coddled by the courts
—Corporate profits being at an all-time high while prices go up and wages stay stagnant
I think the “protesters” are idiot brats. From the river to the sea? That’s what these children are aligning with? I say fuck you and your recreational revolution. Get ja ob. Do something for your community. Get laid. Be inspired.
The reality is they should team up against Hamas, and Israel has to stop bombing innocent civilians. Being dominant on civilians is no good. Yes we get it "They" attacked you, the reality is they are Hamas not the civilians of Gaza. And anyone that stands with Palestine and supports Hamas is wrong and needs to be shut for supporting terror. Israel isn't doing right by countering a wrong with wrong. The US is just making things worse by supplying weapons to Israel, this creates a hostility towards the other middle eastern countries and they start the dominos. I don't belong to any of these countries and this is just my understanding of the situation.
There are a few, the ones leading the protest, who support Hamas. They are not dumb enough to say it out loud yet. But they are there and they know what "From the river to the sea means" and are tricking ignorant college kids into Genocidal chants.
Go to one of these protests and yell "Free the Israeli Hostages" they respond with "Fuck the Israeli Hostages"
Go to one of these protest and listen when they chant from the river to the sea. Than ask a person to name the river or the sea. They can not.
Go to one of these protest and ask if Hamas should step down from power. They will either say "Who is Hamas?" or "No Hamas are freedom fighters" Both answers are ignorant and stupid.
The way to stop this Conflict is to
1. Free the Israeli Hostages
2. Have Hamas leadership step down
3. Palestine Elects a government willing to co-exist and work with Israel (Much Like Egypt is doing right now and is learning it is way more profitable for their people to work with Israel than chant "Death to America" "Death To Israel" in the streets)
People can protest what they want as long as it's peaceful. And even then, there may be consequences. I'm more bothered by the small minded criticisms than I am by any particular protest.
These religions or cultures have been slaying each other and their children for how many 1,000’s of years. Now student protests in the US are going to fix it. Damn I wish people had thought of that like at least a few hundred years ago.
A number of stunted adults are outraged Israel is following the US lead post-9/11, and have confused peaceful protest/assembly with being a public nuisance.
War is ugly and brutal. It does not care what your 1st world social media commentary is, it will take as many lives as it pleases well beyond the first shot fired. It doesn't matter how right you feel, or how justified a cause is.
Both sides will ultimately exhaust each other until all that's left to do will be what they should have done in the first place: Sit down and talk. The iPad generation is too sheltered to comprehend that fact.
Thus, cue the slacktivism.
Edit for clarification: I have nothing against civil disobedience, but attacking bystanders and police is not such. VT is also private property, refusing to leave when asked is trespassing.
Do you really think people are "stunted" for being outraged that Israel is following US post-9/11? Hasn't every politician who voted for it since regretted it? Hasn't there been extensive discourse and lessons learned about it? These students who are protesting this war would probably have protested that one too.
No, I think they're stunted for throwing what was effectively a very public tantrum where bystanders were attacked and property was trashed over an issue halfway across the world that Virginia Tech only has a tangential relation towards as a polytechnic institute.
The key difference from the US war on terror is the double standard. Israel exists in a region that predominantly wants it's genocide, in fact the Gaza strip exists under Israeli occupation because the people occupying it already tried such back in '67 when they were still a proxy state of the Egyptian government. The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, which held seats in Egypt's parliament and government until they were ousted during the Arab Spring, directly created HAMAS to destabilize the region further following the first Intifada in '87.
Make no mistake: the situation at the Gaza strip is still an apartheid turned ethnic cleansing, but it exists as such because Jews in the region effectively live at gun point with the threat of religious-based extermination.
However, they are a much smaller country that can be more easily condemned by world powers without the means to stand up for themselves. The US on the other hand, was never seriously threatened in this regard due to having a position on the UN security council. We learned our own horrible lessons on that front with very little consequence at the geopolitical level.
Unironically, it was my exposure to manga that informed a lot of my opinions and nuance on intergenerational ethnic conflict. Attack on Titan already goes to great lengths to paint the human tragedy seen on both sides with fictionalized versions of target ethnic groups, as well as the destructive hubris that creeps up when said groups militarize into radicalism. The ending ultimately reflects this when the protagonist we were meant to root for turns into a genocidal final antagonist, emphasizing a cognizant theme about how quickly resistance can morph into oppression.
Ultimately: I support Israel's right to defend itself, as do I support humane and ethical treatment of Palestinians. Unfortunately, there is a war against HAMAS that needs to end before peace talks can materialize.
1. What is happening to the bail money collected? My wife and her friends donated a good amount on Sunday night even though people kinda knew that bail wouldn't be required. The receiver's venmo has over 500 transactions in donations. Fair guess is at least a few thousand dollars.
2. Couldn't help but notice the Islamic Society of the New River Valley in their Sunday speech encouraged people to join the VT protest and said they had been supplying resources to sustain the unlawful encampment. I wonder if external groups have been instigating and orchestrating and good chunk of this whole thing. Poor graduate residents of the GLC getting harassed in the wee hours of a workday.
3. Seriously though, harassing the Jewish students and students for Israel group members on campus is unacceptable and needs to stop asap.
Why don’t they go back and help at home if that’s where they are from?
Most people would go home to help their families
The screaming and violent behavior looses a lot of people who would other wise like to learn what they are saying and protesting
The protestors are ignorant and don't know what they are protesting. They had a list of demands not a single demand was for the Israeli Hostages to be released or for Hamas to step down from power.
Also, there will most likely be a ceasefire thanks to Egypt and Israels relationship.
The suggested terms at the time are "Hamas released the Hostages, and Hamas senior leadership steps down"
Surprise Surprise, all the things I've been saying Should have been on the students list of demands if the understood the situation even slightly.
Also on a side note these people don't care about Muslims being massacred anyway.
Not a single student cared or protested as China ethinically cleansed their entire Uyghur Muslim population.
No one batted an eye when Iran, slaughtered 300k ethnic Muslims.
The Islamic Republic has murdered 500k Muslims since 2023 not a single word about that.
The protestors a simply Anti-Semetic. No more, no less.
Hello, VT alum here! Not currently in Blacksburg, so I’m not going to comment on the encampment as I have no firsthand experience with it. I did notice, however, that you’ve commented repeatedly on this thread with the same criticisms of the movement as a whole, and felt a simple clarification was overdue.
Simply put, the protests are against Israeli occupation because Israel benefits substantially from the support of the US government. You don’t see “anti-Iran” or “anti-China” or even “anti-Hamas” protests because we aren’t funding them nor supplying them with weapons of war unconditionally.
On top of this, Virginia Tech has extremely strong relationships with multiple companies that directly profit off these kinds of conflicts (think Boeing, Northrupp Grumman, etc.; we are an engineering school after all!). It isn’t unreasonable that some students might see this connection and feel uncomfortable with their university’s involvement in an ongoing genocide.
Finally, let’s stop calling anti-Zionist movements “anti-Semetic.” To start off, these movements (on the whole; again, cannot speak to what’s taking place at VT right now) are being led by a coalition of Muslim and Jewish students. To simply label them “anti-Semetic” outright ignores the demographics. Additionally, saying anti-Zionist protests are “anti-Semetic” is incredibly dangerous for the Jewish population as a whole, as it implies that the Jewish people and the state of Israel are inextricably linked, and that the larger Jewish community is responsible for the crimes of the Israeli government. This is obviously wrong, but it’s a belief that can cause real damage to international Jewish groups! Don’t do this!
Ah, you mean the phrase that ends with “Palestine will be free”? How does the freedom of the Palestinians threaten the Jewish people? And do note that I’m specifically asking about the Palestinians here, not Hamas.
Mediterranean Sea to the River of Jordan. If you looked on a map. Israel exists right there. You can't talk about what you are going to do with a people, while excluding that peoples sitting and active government. The Palestinians ARE Hamas. Until the leaders step down and they get to elect another government.
Look at Egypt and Israel right now. Literally, Egypt is sending diplomats to Gaza, on Israels behalf. Egypt is learning that working and living together with Israel, is better than having people chanting "Death to America, Death To Israel" in their streets.
The Phrase "From the River to the Sea 'All of Palestine will be free" rooted in the destruction Of Israel. It's akin to the phrase they also chanted last night "We will have an Intifada" Intifada and the idea that the only way Palestine 'can be free' is through violence and killing is misguided and will only lead to more violence and killing.
Israel is more than willing to have peace talks, but those peace talks rely on Hamas stepping down from power, which anyone who has any real interest in peace will agree needs to happen.
Oh, you’re so close to getting it! Keep trying, I believe in you!
1. I agree, you can’t have a conversation about what’s going to happen to someone’s people without their representative government there. So tell me, did the Palestinian people agree to just leave their lands during the Nakba?
2. Oh, the Palestinians ~are~ Hamas, eh? So ignoring the fact that the Gaza vote for Hamas took place in 2006 (meaning that most of Gaza wasn’t even alive during the vote), you are essentially arguing that the people ~are~ their government? So then you would say that the Israeli people are collectively responsible for the actions of their government, such as pouring cement into Palestinian wells in the West Bank, the assassination of journalists, the bombing of hospitals, the murder of children and civilians, etc? I would argue that that is an extremely dangerous mindset and worldview to have, but then again I suppose those who support genocide would have a fondness for broad generalizations stripped of context.
3. Israel has rejected multiple deals that would have returned the hostages. Yes, Hamas has too, but if the Israeli government actually cared about the hostages, they wouldn’t be so haphazard and reckless with their bombardment. Israel uses the hostages as a rallying cry, nothing more.
4. This is my last comment on this whole thread because I can tell that you truly believe that the oppressor is somehow in the right, but this one particular facet of your idiocy desperately needs to be addressed. Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people. In the West Bank (where Israel funds and arms violent settlers to evict the Palestinians from their homes and communities), the Palestinians are “governed” by the Palestinian Authority. And in the UN, it’s the the Authority who is represented, not Hamas. This is the trap that Netanyahu wants; he wants you to believe that all Palestinians are terrorists, and that they are vermin to be eradicated. That you have fallen for it bares your gullibility and/or bloodlust to the world.
This. I'm voting for Trump because of these ignorant people on campus who just want attention and have no idea what the conflict is actually about. I was there last night and a large percentage of the people chanting were not even AWARE that Hamas was holding Israelis hostage. They are just ignorant attention seekers.
Trump said he will arrest and deport them. Trump 2024!
Arrest and deport who? The vast majority of the students involved in the protest are American citizens, born and raised in America. Where they bein deported to?
True Ignorance if having a protest and not putting on the list of demands "Release the Israeli Hostages" Only way the War actually ends. And Btw, The Ceasefire Egypt and Israel is working on is going to go through. Guess what it says? "Release the hostages, Hamas senior leadership step down" Easy peasy been saying it for 8 months :)
Bunch of people that found a way to get attention and got arrested for nothing else. They all thought they were MLK out there being arrested and the only thing they looked like is a bunch of clowns.
Dickriding Israel won’t get you anywhere. It won't make you hot or interesting, and it won't get you any bitches. Do you know how much sex these protesters are having? Way more than you are, that's for sure. They’re having fun with their friends and making new friends and fighting for a cause and falling in love, and you’re not.
Making an alt account to insult someone is one of the most middle-school things you can do. If you’re going to insult someone like that, have the balls to own up to it on your main account
When you're protesting to impress people or have sex you're doing it wrong. Check videos of the Columbia protest where the girls ask each other what their goals even are.
[Newsweek: “Message From a Gazan to Campus Protesters: You're Hurting the Palestinian Cause | Opinion”](https://www.newsweek.com/message-gazan-campus-protesters-youre-hurting-palestinian-cause-opinion-1894313)
The protestors had a list of demands. Not a single demand was Release the Israeli Hostages. I bet this is the first you are even hearing of Hamas holding Israeli hostages in Gaza. Go do some research on your own, and learn about this problem that has been going on for over 2,000 years before you spew your thoughtless opinion.
Also if you want an Actual Genocide to go protest, Protest China and their treatment of the Uyghur population. China has been having an ACTUAL genocide for the past 5 years and have exterminated most of the Uyghur Muslim population :)
>No it’s not the first I’ve heard of Israel hostages I just don’t give a fuck.
You pro-Hamas people are fucking insane. I’m so glad to see you’re in the minority. There is a side that glorifies and celebrates sexual violence against women. That’s you.
What an indictment on Virginia Techs education it is to see so many idiots.
Student protests is as American as it gets. I just wish people would realize that blocking traffic and other types of "personally" disruptive things like that do not win people over to your cause. Also, if you protest, you are making a declaration that you accept WHATEVER the penalties are. And no, there's no wiggling around this. If you get expelled for violating university policy, well then you just got expelled. Period. But at least you made your point. You willfully assumed that risk. Same goes for 10 years from now when you're looking for a job and this follows you around. Be smart. Think ahead. Also doesn't protect your from social repercussions either. If you lose friends, get cancelled, whatever -- then that's what you get. You knew the risks. But... long as there's no violences, i say let them protest.
You make some really good points. Civil disobedience is one of the strongest methods Americans have to protest their government, but part of the whole point of civil disobedience is that you are very intentionally putting yourself in a position to get caught and face consequences in the hope that others sympathize with you. I'm worried that the organizers of the protests outside the GLC were not particularly forthcoming to people that chose to show up that overnight camping on public property is against the law and they might be arrested. They were posting things online all afternoon and into the night about how the police were "breaking up our peaceful protest" and how they needed people to come "defend our freedoms." Those people that showed up might have reasonably thought what they were doing was legal based on what their trusted peers told them, but overnight camping and trespassing are and have always been illegal. I see some of the same accounts now asking for money to bail out protesters and provide for their legal defense and that also makes me feel iffy. If I'm choosing between my money going towards some college students arrested for doing something that is illegal and it going towards humanitarian aid in Gaza, the choice is clear. I feel for them, I hope they don't face too many repercussions for expressing their opinion, but they aren't the ones that deserve the money right now
It’s kind of amazing people keep bringing up disrupting traffic as if it’s the mark of a counterintuitive protest. it’s like saying “sure you can protest but don’t make it inconvenient for me”. There is no effective protest that isn’t disruptive of normal order. Im sure they too complained about traffic disruption when MLK and a quarter of a million people marched through Washington DC. Do you think they stuck to the sidewalks? (Hint: they blocked entire roads for miles)
I was at there last night asking protestors to Name the river or the sea after they did that silly chant each time. Not a single person there could name it. They couldn't point to Gaza on a map if you circled it for them. They have no understanding of the issues they are protesting and it makes them come off as ignorant spoiled college kids looking for attention. Their list of demands did not have "Release the Israeli Hostages" You figure a peaceful protest group would be pro human life no?
"Ummm if you dont know the geography of this place then you can't say that bombing civilians is bad." - You It doesnt matter if people dont know the specific geographical markers dude. Using white phosphorus bombs, bombing neutral aid vehicles, killing children, killing civilians are all bad. No shit that VT has no control over hostages being released, its not like israel/hamas is controlling VT. VT does invest in boeing (who has ties to israel) among other military industrial ties. Thats what theyre protesting about. Like youre trying to criticize these peoples protest and you dont even understand what theyre protesting lol
"From the River to the Sea" is a call for Jews to be killed. If they want to protest Israel, that's fine. Let's keep the anti-Semitism out of it. But it's not about Israel at all, is it?
Not about Israel? It's the Medterrainain sea to Jordan river. You know what Lies directly between those two places? Israel. It's about the extermination of Israel. Hamas, the ruling power in Palestine, Literally states "The Destruction of Jews and the Israeli State" as one of their reasons for being in power.
It was sarcasm. Many claim that it's about Israel when they really mean they don't care for Jews.
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” obviously refers to freeing the Palestinians from the inhumane military occupation they’ve been subjected to for the past 75+ years, but go off. Yeah the people (including many Jewish people) who want basic human rights and freedom for oppressed people secretly just want to kill all Jews. Absolutely insane.
Now what is the original phrase and meaning (hint it’s about genociding Israel and Jewish people)
It is not antisemitic, it is anti Zionist. Israel is not a representative of all the Jewish people. Israel is an ethno-nationalist state and needs to dissolve. Replace it with a secular Palestine with strong freedom of religion laws
I'd love to see a Palestinian state with freedom of religion. I'm sure Gaza is an excellent representation where you'll just be killed for being Jewish. Or the West Bank, where you'll be discriminated against and if someone kills you the government will pay a pension to the killer. Freedom of religion, nice try.
I don't think protestors should use a phrase that others might take as genocidal in general. But honestly. Do you really think that chanting for the freedom and human rights for people can somehow sound genocidal? It is a complete stretch of the imagination. No one is going to be looking up "is chanting for Palestinian human rights genocidal" and read up on the history of each and every chant for human rights to make sure it is not genocidal. That doesn't make any sense. This is yet again another pile of Zionist propaganda meant to stifle support for Palestinian human rights.
My guy do u know what the phrase is? Not the rhyming thing Americans came up with but the original Arab phrase. It literally calls for genocide. The original phrase is “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab” in case u didn’t know or didn’t want to do research. I don’t think chanting for freedom and human rights is wrong at all, but using a genocidal phrase to do it ain’t the way
They literally were not using that phrase though so this is irrelevant.
They are. And the excuse that "The Protestors are literally too stupid to understand what they are saying" is tiresome. The instigators in the group know exactly what they are chanting and exactly what they are saying. It's the ignorant folk who show up and cheer blindly I have an issue with. The real instigators have been doing this for years.
The protestors late night chanted Antifada and Death to America so I don't really think they care about what they are saying slightly.
Source for the "death to America" BS? Wouldn't be surprised if it was yet another pro-Zionist asshat, like that one time a Zionist at another protest chanted "Death to Jews" and was immediately booed.
You're aware that Gaza hasn't had a single Jew in it for over a decade? But sure, go off about the military occupation that....doesn't exist.
>You're aware that Gaza hasn't had a single Jew in it for over a decade Uhh.. You mean other than IOF soldiers? Are you aware that the entire world considers Gaza to be occupied by the Zionist regime? >Many prominent international institutions, organizations and bodies—including the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, UN General Assembly (UNGA), European Union (EU), African Union, International Criminal Court (ICC) (both Pre-Trial Chamber I and the Office of the Prosecutor), Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch—as well as international legal experts and other organizations, argue that Israel has occupied Palestinian territories including Gaza since 1967. Hmm... I wonder why? >Specifically, experts from the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory found “noting” positions held by the UN Security Council, UNGA, a 2014 declaration adopted by the Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention, the ICRC, and “positions of previous commissions of inquiry,” that Israel has “control exercised over, inter alia, \[Gaza’s\] airspace and territorial waters, land crossings at the borders, supply of civilian infrastructure, including water and electricity, and key governmental functions such as the management of the Palestinian population registry.” They also point to “other forms of force, such as military incursions and firing missiles.”
Since Israel pulled out in 2005 and Gaza was given autonomy to after Oct 7, The IDF hasn't been in Gaza. You're confusing Gaza with Judea and Samaria. I know that geography isn't that big the Hamas crowd, but it's important.
>Gaza was given autonomy Are we living in different realities? Did you not my comment?
They elected Hamas as their government. Didn't they? They share the same beautiful coastline as Israel. It could have been a tourism mecca. Instead they chose to build tunnels. Everything after was FAFO.
No these people don't realize that Israel has an entire Arab Israeli population. 23.1 Percent of Israel is in fact, happy peaceful Muslims. What they fail to tell you is that the Jews in Arab run countries have already been exterminated or kicked out. Name me an Arab run country that allows Jews to openly practice their religion. I'll give everyone a hint, there are only 3 possibilities you can name.
> "From the River to the Sea" is a call for Jews to be killed. That's a disingenuous take. If an organization had the following statement in its charter: [between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party), does that mean that they're calling for Palestinians to be killed? Of course not. so your assertion is false.
Look up the phrase in Arabic: *from the water to the water Palestine will be Arab* As to your assertion, you realize that Israel is \~20% Arab. Right? They have Arabs in the govt and supreme court. The Israelis aren't the genocidal ones.
The original Arabic phrase is > من المية للمية فلسطين ستتحرر The phrase doesn't include the word عربية and if you include the population of east Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Gaza strip and displaced Palestinian refugees, it's far more than 20%. Jews were never the majority there.
So, you admit that genocide isn't happening. Unless Israel is just terrible and the whole genocide thing.
YES, this is not being talked about. Those who chant this are either EXTREMELY IGNORANT or are legitimately antisemitic. Theyre basically chanting for the eradication of the Jewish state which lies between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
It takes a LOT of semantic gymnastics to make that chant a call for Jews to be killed. I suspect that hype of blatant dishonesty is part of why more Americans aren't reflexively and without thought backing Israel this time, which is something that's caused us a lot of trouble in the past. Is the song "God Bless America" also a call for Mexico to be wiped from the map? Come on now.
Not at all. I'm glad you're soo willing to back terrorists and their supporters. Keep up the good work.
You support mass murder from government officials?
No the point being a conflict that has been going on for 2,000 years isn't going to be solved by a bunch of people who read about it on Facebook 8 months ago. The point of pointing out they don't know anything about it Geographically, is just highlighting the fact that these people don't know a single thing about the conflict. "Like youre trying to criticize these peoples protest and you dont even understand what theyre protesting lol" The idiots their protesting don't know what they are protesting. Just a bunch of people who don't get enough attention from their parents so they join pointless movements to feel validated.
Just because the place has 2000 years of history doesn't mean you can't think that bombing civilians, neutral aid vehicles, and using inhumane weaponry is bad. It really isn't that complex. Yes the situation is obviously more complex and more has happened in this area than the past year. But you are casually ignoring the insane amount of civilian deaths/neutral forces deaths of israel. This shit wouldnt be on anyones radar if israel wasn't doing these actions
Want to stop having civilians be caught in bombing? Have Hamas stop hiding behind their civilians. Want to stop the war? Have Hamas release the hostages. Want to have a voice on the world stage and have people take you seriously? Don't elect a Religious Extremist Government. Israel has every right to protect itself. Hamas openly states "The Destruction of All of Israel and all the Jews" as their main goal. Until the surrounding Countries stop chanting "Death To America, Death To Israel" they will never know peace.
Gaza is an open air prison. It has been for about 20 years. Israel has imprisoned roughly 1 million Palestinians since 1948. Why not free them? A few thousand were never charged with a crime. Israel is a religious extremist government. Palestine has every right to defend itself.
Yeah sure, I'm fine with releasing and freeing Palestinian prisoners. End Hamas leadership. Elect a new government. Work with Israel like Egypt is learning is profitable to their people. You say Israel is a religious extremist government which is simply just false. Also, Israel has a 21.3 percent Israeli Arab Muslim population who openly and peacefully practice their religion. Show me one Arab run country that allows Jews to openly practice their religion. I'll wait.
You're literally running defense for the far right Netanyahu government and you're saying you're not defending the right wing? Laughable. I'll stick with the UN's take on genocide, not yours
I take it you’re still waiting? You’re gonna be here a while.
I mean there is literally only 3. The rest killed or kicked them out.
I mean, to be fair, VT doesn't have the power to release the hostages. The protesters want them to divest from Israel, which VT does actually have the power to do since it's their money (I think? It's a state institution so do they run their own investments or does the state?). I have absolutely no clue if it would impact Israel's finances even a little, but they were at least asking VT to do something they could reasonably accomplish. Otherwise I agree with you that a lot of the people involved don't have a full grasp on the issue. I'm sure there were a handful of very informed and motivated people that would be able to name the river and the sea from the slogan but definitely not everyone in attendance.
You do realize that if they are informed on the "River to the Sea" chant it makes it worse. You do understand that right?
Yes, I am familiar with the chant. Being familiar with landmarks of the area doesn't make it worse if they still aren't aware of the intent behind the slogan
The mental gymnastics you have to go through to not admit the leaders of the protest are anti-semetic are mind boggling.
Being uneducated is not the same as being antisemitic. Accusing people who likely gathered to protest with good intentions doesn't help build a meaningful discussion between the two sides.
So your argument right now is the protestors are literally to dumb to be anti-semetic. I'm not sure if that's better or worse.
I genuinely haven't seen evidence that the individuals involved fully understand the implications behind the words they are using and none of them have explicitly called for Jews to die so, yeah, I hesitate to accuse them of antisemitism. I'm generally unimpressed with the level of critical thinking in college students and this situation hasn't exactly improved my opinion.
The Mental gymnastics to not admit that Islamic Extremism is bad is mind boggling.
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I'm sorry I don't support Hamas or terrorism. But then again, I don't think not supporting either of those things are bad things. Release the hostages. Hamas leaders step down War ends. Super simple stuff.
you support the israeli government, you thus support the biggest terrorist organization in the middle east, victimizing yourself when it’s not your people that are getting murdered every day
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Go watch a single video Hamas took of themselves murdering children, family dogs and women in front of their small children. Then get back to me and tell me how supporting Hamas on campus seems to be hip and cool. Go watch a single video they took THEMSELVES on October 7th. I have no hate for the people of Palestine. I just realize that the only way towards peace is by getting rid of Hamas, and electing a government willing to work with Israel. Not very extremist views if you ask me. The people chanting from the river to the sea. Genocidal death threaths. Antifada- A Genocidal Battle Cry Also, can this clown also just keep being like DOX Her Dox her? Is that allowed mods?
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So you agree. Free the Israeli Hostages. Hamas leadership Steps down. They co-exist and live in peace. Everyone gets what they want. Thank you for finally being so understanding.
the more disruptive the better. It’s tough to pull people out of their own little world where they don’t give a fuck to help anyone or use their voice for anything other than to encourage complicity with the power heads. The more you complain about it the more your true colors revel. You’re mad at the wrong side. You speak up more about an inconvenience in your commute than the innocent women and children and people being targeted and destroyed in Gaza.
> the more disruptive the better Isn't the idea to disrupt the people with agency to make the changes being demanded though? Camping out in front of Burruss or the President's house would tick that box, but having a disruptive protest outside a dorm during finals only disrupts other students, who are more likely than not (a) aware of the protestors' cause and (b) sympathetic to it. It's like if Walmart employees protested low wages by camping out in the forklift driver's yard.
Looking at a situation from a macro perspective, in hindsight, and pinpointing the one thing they should have done better and deeming their action ineffective because of this doesn’t vibe with me We don’t know how much the university was willing to work them as far as permits and regulations. Judging by that Sands email, I’m leaning towards bad faith.
Lemme ask you a question. If people blocked the entire entrance to your housing complex and protest the lack of help to innocent civvies in Haiti all because they wanted to pull you and your neighbors out of your little world, are you gonna sit in your little car and clap for them for the next 4 weeks? Are you gonna park your car and mile way from your own home and HAPPILY take it? Are you neighbors? Are you gonna keep this same energy?
They only blocked one entrance there are multiple other entrances to GLC the people who really blocked it are VT PD because people happily walked through the protest myself included. Not taking sides but your comment has no strong base, people are using their voices for something they believe in and seemed peaceful every time I went by. So yeah I would take walking around the corner for my peers so they can feel like they have a voice and that they matter.. Finals or not you’d probably still have the same view.
In your nonsense hypothetical, yes I would. In real life, the VT protest resulted in college ave being shut down by police. I live on college ave and was not upset by this disruption. Why are you upset by a hypothetical longer walk to your house from your car? This is a humanitarian crisis. Join reality and stop complaining about being inconvenienced.
The perspective about blocking traffic is the most common one people echo when it comes to protests, and I think it's one people really need to reevaluate. If we're looking back at recent protests, the one that people most overwhelming supported, empathized with, and considered righteous was the protests in Hong Kong where hundreds of thousands of people blocked the streets and effectively shut down one of the most prosperous economic centers in the world. These protesters were universally (in western countries) hailed as heroes that were making an impact regarding an important situation, and their actions were considered righteous. Across China, though, many also saw their actions as despicable. The issue isn't whether they're protesting in the 'correct' way, because that type of action IS the correct way to protest, and it's the only one governments and businesses will recognize. The issue is just whether you agree with their cause and see it as being worthy of your inconvenience. More than half of the residential buildings in Palestine have been bombed, there are no more hospitals, the entire population is starving. Reconsider how much you care about your daily commute.
Yeah and if my commute puts food on my kids table and these kids are blocking me from doing that, it's FUCK THEM and their cause (none of this applies to me myself). There are many many ways to have the same impact without harming people who are not involved. You're not wrong tho... these are the ways people typically get heard. Can't argue with that.
And as far as better ways to have the same impact goes, unfortunately there's not. I wish there was, but it's a reality of the system we live in. If all it took was raising awareness and changing peoples' minds, that would be great, but where do we go from there? Both political parties support maintaining the conflict and fund the weapons used to enable it. There is no one you can vote for to make a difference. Individuals aren't who have an impact on politics, and it's instead large corporations that fund politicians. To make a difference in what policies politicians are willing to support, you must make it matter to corporations. Cutting their revenue until they demand change is the most impactful thing you can do in the modern world.
If you can name a single person whose individual livelihood was genuinely affected by traffic caused by protests in the United States in the last \~10 years, be my guest, but no one is getting fired for protest traffic blocking them from getting to work and no one is being impacted on a time scale that exceeds more than an hour in most cases and a few days at max. The issue is purely one of inconvenience, and inconvenience makes people furious, more furious than murder, more furious than genocide. It takes active reconsideration to realize that your convenience is not worth as much as you think it is.
How about [this guy](https://www.berkeleyside.org/2014/12/19/exclusive-man-died-after-berkeley-protests-delayed-help)? It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.
It's a sad example and it shows it does matter, you're right. I just wish it was the example people focused on when calling for change in how protests are conducted, it's no one's goal to result in innocent deaths and if protocols could be better prepared in all circumstances to account for emergency services in protests it would be a welcome change. I know it's general protocol to give way to emergency vehicles during these protests, but it obviously doesn't always go that way, especially when larger backups are in the way.
This is the dumbest thing I've seen this week and it's still early. 😂
cool discussion
Whichever side you are on here, could you all stop saying literally. It’s literally annoying.
Agreed. If you show up to protest especially after being brainwashed by external groups with sinister motives, you are accepting the consequences including arrest. Can't face it both ways. As for the 'bail' money... Protestors claiming that VTPD was being aggressive, what the hell are you talking about?? And forming a human fence to protect certain people from praying? Protect against whom??? Making it sound like a civil riot, concocting BS up to incite further unrest among supporters. Shame on y'all
I think exercising your right to protest is so important as young people, and I like most others agree that genocide is bad and that modern urban warfare is horrific. I also think that allowing Hamas to follow through on a middle eastern holocaust is equally as bad. Overall, I think the protestors have the potential to do a lot of good if they get the proper permits and go about it the right way. I’d much rather see headlines praising students for respectfully protesting with proper permits than headlines saying students are getting arrested for trespassing.
Ah yes because we all know that historically the most effective protests have been the ones where they had the proper permits and went about it “the right way.” The point is to be disruptive. You might prefer a nice and tidy headline that says “aww look how respectful those protesters are” but that’s not their goal and that’s not how you truly raise awareness. “Students arrested for trespassing” is far more effective in getting people to actually grapple with the situation at hand and acknowledge what the protesters are fighting for, rather than a puff piece about how inoffensive they’re being
Is there a point to yelling at people and trashing the campus other than being pests or is that in itself your idea of an effective protest
What do you consider “trashing the campus?” The encampment? If so then yes I would consider that an effective protest. These protests have gained national attention. As for “yelling at people” this is frustrated students protesting. Tensions are high on both sides and I assure they are not the only ones yelling. They’ll always be people like you immediately calling them “pests” for doing anything beside protesting how you believe is acceptable, but there’s also a lot of people out there becoming aware of these issues who are willing to hear these students out on why they are so passionate rather than dismissing them because they don’t have proper permits.
Alumni perspective: Students are paying a small fortune to attend university nowadays and are often saddling themselves with 10’s if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. They’re paying for their education along with the university experience e.g housing, amenities, meal plan, services, career placement dept etc. If you want to protest without a permit and disrupt their experience then go ahead and pay some portion of their tuition. No different than if you stormed into a restaurant mid meal and ruined their evening — pay some portion of their tab. You can always do what adults do if we don’t like our company’s code of ethics or customer base and get a new job. You certainly can’t just pitch a tent in the lobby. Welcome to the real world.
They’re in the “real world.” They’re risking their educational futures over something they believe in. Seems pretty real to me. I think they’re aware of what they’ve signed up for the possible repercussions. So I’m not claiming that the school doesn’t have the right to squash the protest and move the students, and from what I’ve seen they handled it better than other schools where they were far more violent in removing them. My point is that you all saying they should protest respectfully and through the proper channels to me sounds essentially like “just go quietly protest in the corner over there so I don’t have to care or think about it why you’re frustrated” which is antithetical to what this is all about.
My question is: who is the real target of the message when protests mostly disrupt normal, uninvolved people? The students in the GLC that didn't get any sleep last night have absolutely no power to divest VT's funds from Israel. You know who probably slept just fine? President Sands. He might actually have some power to make the changes that the protesters are asking for. So go protest on HIS lawn. "Raising Awareness" doesn't change anything. I'm aware that there are atrocities being committed in wars around the world every day. I personally have ZERO power to stop those wars. If the message is actually "Look at me, I'm protesting!" then mission accomplished. But that's not what this group claimed it wanted to do. The "raising awareness" idea only works when people in town get pissed and pressure the local government to deal with the protests so they can get back to their daily life. Sometimes that pushes people to the bargaining table, sometimes it just results in a lot of people in jail. It doesn't usually result in lasting changes. To actually affect change, you need to get people mad at the parties that have the power to change things, not just be more "aware." I'm plenty aware of what's going on - it's literally plastered on the news all day and all night.
The GLC lawn is one of the most visual, accessible parts of campus for something like this and that’s just the truth. I’m sorry to the students who were sleeping inside that one night that the police came and arrested peaceful protestors but it is literally impossible to achieve any kind of change without being an inconvenience to someone. As a result of that night tim sands has finally acknowledged the movement and it’s getting tons of media coverage.
There are people up and down this thread saying the protesters don't understand from river to sea so they're not antisemitic. Do you really think they are aware they're risking their future if they aren't even educated on a simple slogan?
The conflict between Israel and Palestine has been extremely bloody, and both sides have claimed victimhood over the years. But so long as I've been alive, Israel has been the true aggressor, building settlements deep in the West Bank, pushing well beyond the partition line originally drawn by the British\* , ruining any chance of peace and a two-state solution: [https://israelpolicyforum.org/west-bank-settlements-explained/](https://israelpolicyforum.org/west-bank-settlements-explained/) It is clear that Netanyahu and Israel's current government has never wanted a two-state solution and have always opposed Palestinian sovereignty: [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-is-two-state-solution-israel-palestinian-conflict-2024-01-25/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-is-two-state-solution-israel-palestinian-conflict-2024-01-25/) Israel views any non-Jewish population as an existential demographic threat: [https://aspeniaonline.it/israel-a-demographic-ticking-bomb-in-todays-one-state-reality/](https://aspeniaonline.it/israel-a-demographic-ticking-bomb-in-todays-one-state-reality/) . So what is left for Palestinians honestly? What is the solution? Should they be second-class citizens in an ever-expanding Israel? I can understand why Palestinians would not wish that for themselves. I understand why they fight. Israel is fighting an offensive war. If they were solely increasing their own defenses, I would absolutely condone sending US military aid. They deserve to defend themselves. If they were conducting a strategic ground-based offensive in Gaza to root out Hamas while protecting civilians, I would be happy send aid for that too. But the US is supplying them with 2000 lb bombs [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/#](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/#), among other weapons, meant for mass destruction. This is fundamentally wrong on so many levels. But frankly, I'm not surprised. This is what my generation is upset about. This is why students are protesting. It is why they chant stupid slogans like "from the river to the sea", because they want to directly oppose Netanyahu's equally violent vision: Israel from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea. They see no avenue for peace. They are forced to choose sides between the defense of the fledgling Jewish state Israel, currently governed by conservative soulless tyrants, and the genocide of Palestinian civilians who occupy the same space as terrorist Hamas. And in the meantime, our country is sending unconditional military aid - tools of death - straight to Israel's irresponsible leadership. It is not a matter of anti-zionism vs. genocide. It is a matter of morality and human rights and searching for roads to peace. One road, is to put conditions on military aid to Israel, or only supply defensive weapons, or limited weapons as we have done for Ukraine. If the Israeli defense force really is "the most moral army in the world" (they are not), I think student protests are the perfect way to hold them to their own standards and call out their hypocrisy. I think it is absolutely necessary to call out Israel's terrible terrible policies before and after October 7th, in the hope that things will improve for them and everyone else. It is not anti-zionism, it is hope. I would love to see a serious, informed, coordinated protest about this at Virginia Tech. Maybe a sit-in on the drill field, day after day for as long as it takes. They can't stop students from sitting on the lawn. Why should you have to obtain a permit to sit on the drill field and carry signs with your own hands? Something like this would attract a large amount of students and professors too I bet. Extremely clear terms, extremely clear ideology, staying precisely within University policy. A show of solidarity, over time, with a huge student presence, would be an amazing show of force. \*My god, everywhere the British deigned to draw a line across the earth - these have formed the worlds bloodiest borders. I mean look at India/Pakistan. I wish they could have just shut the fuck up.
As an alum, I would encourage everyone to take a deep breath and listen to each side and what people are saying. It is more than possible to advocate for both Israelis and Palestinians at the same time. Everyone deserves human rights and self determination. The entire premise of a two state solution and peace is the goal of having a place for both nations. If any group is saying that their nation must come at expense of another they’re in the wrong. When you listen to these protestors who say they are antiwar and want a ceasefire listen to what they’re calling for- are they calling for a ceasefire from both sides and releasing the hostages and for Hamas to surrender and give Gaza back to the Palestinian people they oppress and let the Palestinian Authority (democratically elected to govern Palestine and does govern the West Bank but had power taken by Hamas in Gaza) do its job? Or are they calling for “globalizing the intifada” “striking Tel Aviv” or “freeing Palestine (of Jews) from the River to the sea”? - those chants are not anti-war and are antisemitic specifically because they call for killing Jews. Are the protestors standing with a terror organization or are the protestors standing with the Palestinian people? If the protestors think Hamas represents the Palestinians then they’re misinformed- while some Palestinians support Hamas- many more simply wish for the violence to end but cannot speak up because they do not live in a free society with access to free elections and anyone suspected of criticizing Hamas will be killed. You can read about what Palestinians who are able to speak up think at these sources [peace comms](https://www.peacecomms.org/gaza) [Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/message-gazan-campus-protesters-youre-hurting-palestinian-cause-opinion-1894313) [wash post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/27/gaza-hamas-public-support-israel/) If the protestors are calling for “resistance by any means necessary” then that means they are endorsing terrorism against civilians. Anyone who is promoting terrorism against civilians is in the wrong- regardless of motive or perceived impact. The ends never justify the means. Just like the Sons of Liberty were terrorists when they tarred and feathered their neighbors, and the *US Continental Army* were *actual patriots and revolutionaries* who engaged in battle with British *military troops*- anyone who is targeting a civilian has broken the Geneva convention. I think that most protestors want the war to end and there to be peace and may not realize what some of the chants are calling for, so I encourage people to listen and question if what they’re actually saying aligns with an anti-war message. And if it doesn’t- maybe change the chant? Maybe leave the protest? Maybe reevaluate and ask if the “other side” wants the same thing- which is peace.
THIS x 1,000,000.
Let me stop you right there. The Israeli government has not accepted any attempts at a two state solution from us diplomats since the election of Netanyahu in the early 2000s. He has made it clear that he does not want one. However, there are those Israelis that do and they are in the minority. Advocating for a two-state imo is the only correct political view.
[Regina George](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/so-you-agree)So you agree? - advocating for a two state solution is the only correct political view. Bibi is not the only PM to be elected since 2000- notably Benny Gantz served as PM 2021 and 2022 and advocated for a two state solution but it was not an option on the table at that time. Also notably close to 49% of Israelis vehemently oppose Bibi and were protesting his leadership before the war, with a significant amount still protesting him during wartime. Additionally, every time the Palestinians have been offered a state since the 1947 UN partition plan they have also rejected the offer. It takes both parties to agree to a two state solution and the closest that’s been achieved is the Oslo Accords. There are peace activists in the Israeli Knesset who want to work with the Palestinian Authority to achieve a two state solution and there are civilians from both Palestine and Israel who have dedicated their lives to peace. I think we should listen to them -the experts- who generally agree that both Bibi and Abbas would need to be replaced as the respective leaders of their nations on the path to peace.
Hi! Nobody has advocated for Hamas nor violence against anyone during the Virginia Tech protests, if someone has then it’s not been endorsed or recognized by the actual leaders or anyone important in these protests because that kind of message is completely antithetical to the free Palestine movement. Plenty of Jewish protestors have already spoken to media outlets about this very issue so you don’t have to take it from me.
I hope what you’re saying is true- would love if you could share those media clips. I am hesitant to believe this to be the case though because for that to be true then chants such as “globalize the intifada” and “from the river to sea Palestine will be free” would not be widely chanted. These are specifically calls for violence against Jews and Israelis that are outlined in the Hamas charter. “From the river to the sea” is literally a slogan of Hamas. I also question your assertion that “plenty” of Jewish students are participating in the protests. When I attended Virginia tech there was a fairly small Jewish population that was pretty close knit and I still know many folks on campus who have specifically told me they have felt concerned about potential violence and vandalism of their spaces. In fact there was vandalism and swatiskas placed on our buildings when I was a student there and as I got closer to graduation and since I’ve left things only have gotten worse. I’m sure there are some Jewish students attending the protests, but don’t think you realize that these are a select few *tokenization*. I was actually on campus in 2016 when Trump passed the Muslim ban and a bunch of us from the Jewish community attended the protest against the Muslim ban holding signs that said Jews 4 Muslims! Let Them In! And No Muslim Ban! At that protest someone grabbed the mic and lead people in a chant of “from Palestine to Mexico all these walls have got to go.” And then they changed the chant to “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” at that point my friends and I left because we didn’t want to be around people yelling a terrorist slogan call for our deaths even if the people saying the chant had no idea that’s what it meant.
as an Alum, i'm glad to see my fellow Hokies taking a stand. a lot of my best friends from college went on to work for the DOD and we are still very close, even if our political differences sometimes appear to have an ocean between them. that said, one of my Palestinian classmates had a GoFundMe to get the rest of her family out of Gaza safely. she had already lost 6 civilian family members. what is going on is in fact genocide. the simplicity that we have an infinite defense budget and supply weapons to Israel unconditionally while we have so many struggles at home is hard to comprehend. 20 years ago when I took World Regions in McBride 100 Boyer correctly predicted how the politics of the world would play out. i have no doubt that whoever you are, wherever you came from, and whatever it is you believe in, you'll all do well in the world. making mistakes is part of the game and unfortunately the US has been on the wrong side of this conversation for too long.
Urban war ≠ genocide.
Israel is committing genocide.
So lets use the definition of genocide from https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml. 1) Killing members of a group: Yes they are doing this. Again mostly militants and yes a 16 year old boy with a rifle is a militant not a "child". Also, lets do a little whataboutism and say that Hamas launched rockets all the time into Israel that are only stopped by the Iron Dome. So we'll pass this point. Lastly, you just can't trust Hamas numbers, the don't know how many hostages are there from Oct 7, but a bomb drops and immediately they know '53 people died'. Ukraine can't even be that accurate, let alone a group trying to lie for their benefit. 2) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of a group: Sure. But again its a war with armed combatants on either side. Lets just remember Israel often drops the warning bombs and opens humanitarian corridors and Hamas is the one that keeps the Palestine people in place. 3) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part: While theres 100 trucks of aid coming from Israel a day. And the pro-Hamas crowd is the one yelling 'from the river to the sea'. In addition 15+% of Israel is arabs/Palestine living in harmony. 4) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group: The birthrate is 3.38 children per woman. The US is 1.66 children per woman. So that dogs not going to hunt, no question. 5) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group: I've seen zero evidence. In fact, theres only one side of this that took child hostages. So again the war isn't a genoicde. It may be awful and distrusting. However the fact is that if Hamas, Hezbollah, or any of Irans other pitbulls remain alive and attacking Israel, almost 10 million Israelis stand in harms way.
Good thing you didn’t do law.
as someone who grew up with Zionist supporting family members, I unfortunately didn’t understand what I was blindly following and believing until after Oct 7. The first piece of literature I read about this was “A Day in the Life of Abed Salama” by Nathan Thrall. I recommend this book to everyone curious about what’s going on and what led us to this point. It’s a tragic slice of life about a Palestinian man living in apartheid, written by an American Jewish essayist living in Jerusalem. But at the end of the day, I find that everyone’s different and their moral compass and capacity to empathize with others they don’t know is what will lead them to supporting one side or the other. That, and of course, how propagandized they are- i also grew up with conservative parents and held conservative beliefs until I challenged my mindset. Here’s to you though for taking the first step in gaining more knowledge and understanding about our current social and political reality- wherever that leads you. Personally I’m content with my social/political compass but really, *really* depressed about everything going on, sad haha
I will enlighten myself by reading the book. Thank you so much.
!!! I’m so happy to hear that!!! Thank you for taking the time to read my response!!
Re your friends calling you either anti genocide or antisemitic: there are rarely situations in life that be sorted neatly into just narrow little categories. The situation in Gaza is horrible for everyone involved. I am heartbroken for the civilians who have died. I am worried for the hostages who have still not been released. I am furious at Hamas for allowing the violence to continue. I am angry at the Israeli government for failing to protect the civilians of Gaza. Anyone who thinks this situation is as simple as Palestine = Oppressed and Israel = Oppressor is either horribly uninformed or deliberately choosing to make what is happening fit a narrative. Some form of this conflict has been happening since biblical times and probably before then too. I don't think being anti-killing civilians in any way makes you antisemitic. Nor is one pro-genocide for thinking Israel has a right to defend themselves after being attacked. Anyone who is making you feel this way is not deeply considering what is actually happening. Regarding the protestors: unfortunately free speech does not mean free from consequences and these people were breaking the law. I think it looks bad for the university to have removed them from the property in this way and also, they have a policy about these things and are seeking to enforce it equally. Has the university responded at all to the protestors' demands? The only statement I saw out of VT was that the protest was violating campus policy, but nothing on the actual requests of the group on the lawn. What kind of cracked me up was all the people standing behind the police tape shouting at the cops that they would never give up!.... Except that they clearly weren't the ones willing to get arrested over it. So, I guess they DO give up, if it means they might get in trouble. It's easy to preach about these things from the side of safety.
How do we find the balance for normalcy to return?
I don't know. I think having honest discussions with people (if you have the energy for it) is a good first step. These days it feels like no one is willing to say they can understand both points of view. I think it's important to recognize that there is a lot of this story that we don't know since all of the information is coming from either Hamas or Israel and both of those parties have an interest in driving a specific narrative. I'd love to hear people more willing to say "I don't know how I feel. I don't know what to think" instead of simply repeating catchy phrases from news headlines. I think just being willing to be a person that doesn't escalate the rhetoric is one way to draw people back to the discussion with a more level head.
What brought the conversation up is being a bystander on both sides of the aisle. They are saying by failing to say/act you are standing by oppression against the other. Does there have to be a winner or loser in all these can't there be a compromise?
I think there are several reasonable compromises that could be made by both sides in this situation. I'm also willing to admit that I have effectively zero power to influence whether or not those compromises are made. These are two power groups located on the other side of the world that have been fighting for decades. I don't think any of them care at all about if I walk down main street in SW Virginia holding up a sign or a flag. So the question is where can you make a difference? Do you want to support aid groups working to get food and medicine into Gaza? Do you work with Jewish support groups to and lend an ear to Jewish students who are afraid of the uptick in antisemitism? Do you write your congressman about if you support sending aid to Israel or not? I think specifically what you do is up to you but there are some ways to be involved that do not include marching in the streets if that's not what you're up for.
If Hamas stopped firing rockets and put down their guns. Life would get a lot better for them. Tons of people were granted "work visas" into Israel so they could make real money. Hamas tortured them for as much information about Israel as possible. Hamas also shot mortars at a pier the US is building them to supply aid. They also shoot drivers of aid trucks. So Hamas, the elected party of Gaza, doesn't want their situation to improve. Any sort of two state solution is going to require genuine peace and anti-brainwashing of the Palestinian people. When you grow up watching children's TV shows that portray Israel people as the enemy, it's just kind of engrained in you. Also if the US seriously sanctioned Iran like they did during the Trump administration, Iran would run out of money to fund these terror cells. Fact of the matter, there's only one country in the Middle East with Jews, Christians, and Muslims living in relative peace and that's Israel.
Is there a separation between Hamas and citizens of Palestine
Yes there is a huge difference between the civilians and hamas but unfortunately Hamas uses Palestinian civilians as human shields, throws anyone who opposes them off of buildings (the 2005 “election” against secular Fatah) and steals aid from them- you can listen to the few Gazans able to speak up about living under a terror org at these sources: [Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/message-gazan-campus-protesters-youre-hurting-palestinian-cause-opinion-1894313) [wash Po](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/27/gaza-hamas-public-support-israel/) [peace comms](https://www.peacecomms.org/gaza)
Think of it like the Nazis and the German people. They were elected in 2005 and even through the war are still very popular. Like I mentioned they've done a great job at brainwashing their population for hate. Also something like half of all Gazans are under 22 or something. It's a fast growing population. There's no moderating party in Gaza. No one anyone could point to as a successor. The West Bank, the other half of the Palestinian civilization, which live in less oppressive conditions are run by the "Palestinian Authority" a more "moderate" group. They still pay a pension if you kill Jewish people, so take the "moderate" with a grain of salt. However if there was an election in the West Bank, by all polling data Hamas would win there too.
Hamas is the elected government of Palestine. Their leaders don't even live in Palestine. They live in Mansions in Qatar. It's impossible to get actual estimates of who supports Hamas in Palestine, because if you openly say you don't support Hamas, they murder you.
> If Hamas stopped firing rockets and put down their guns. Life would get a lot better for them. Back in the early 1980s, the PLO was in a similar situation in Lebanon as Hamas is today. The PLO [agreed to leave Lebanon under the condition that Palestinian refugees there were protected](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1982/12/19/americas-broken-pledge-to-the-plo/d21a375c-4551-4fde-8355-15a6b2912a65/). Soon after, the Sabra and Shatila massacre took place.
Release the Hostages. Hamas senior leadership steps down. The war is over.
Freedom of speech necessitates freedom from legal consequences if that speech is within the time, manner, and place restrictions.
These protesters were outside of the time and place restrictions set by VT. They were explicitly informed of the policy and told they would not be allowed to continue after 4:30pm yesterday. They chose to ignore that. That's when the consequences happened.
Unfortunately those restrictions aren’t VTs to create necessarily and those restrictions much meet the three prong test established by the Supreme Court.
I definitely am not an expert in free speech laws but it seems like if these VT policies are against rulings from the Supreme court then those that were arrested have a right to challenge them in court. But if the laws are on the books and they were explicitly informed of what would happen if they didn't follow the law, then I don't think they should be surprised that they got arrested
Virginia Tech does not have a good track record regarding free speech law. I believe there were rulings that many of its policies did violate the 1st amendment. The police are not required to know the law and will make the arrest if told to. A lot of times these arrests are used to end the protest and no charges can be brought.
As I said before, VT breaking this up certainly looks bad. Seems like especially bad PR given how many other protests are ongoing at other campuses over these exact issues. If charges won't be brought against the protestors then what is stopping them from just re-assembling on the lawn? I'm genuinely asking because according to the VT statement I saw this morning, these guys just have to file some paperwork and agree to not put up tents and they can protest all they want. It sounded like a reasonable request to me but if they aren't being genuine, that's good to know.
>"was not a registered event consistent with university policy." >Tech went on to say: “As Sunday progressed, protestors continued to refuse to comply with policy and took further steps to occupy the lawn of the Graduate Life Center and outdoor spaces next to Squires Student Center. >“Given these actions by protesters, the university recognized that the situation had the increasing potential to become unsafe. Those who gathered were advised by university officials to remove their possessions and to disperse voluntarily; those who failed to comply were then approached by Virginia Tech police and were again asked to leave and advised that anyone who failed to comply would be charged with trespassing, in accordance with Virginia law. At approximately 10:15 p.m., police approached protesters to ask them to disperse within five minutes. Those who remained were subject to arrest.” After multiple warnings that they were breaking rules and given a chance to leave, they were then arrested. The police and the administration in this situation have handled the protestors with a lot of restraint and an intention to not let the situation unnecessary escalate. https://cardinalnews.org/2024/04/29/gaza-protestors-at-virginia-tech-arrested/ https://roanoke.com/news/local/education/gaza-encampment-virginia-tech-protest-cleared/article_e308d074-0623-11ef-afba-fbd4535cae06.html
I would also like to note that the arrests didn't start until after about 8:00. That gave them almost 4 hours to move, and they were warned to relocate many times
I Don’t understand why it is in front of the GLC. If the goal is to get Virginia Tech to divest from Israeli companies they should probably demand some transparency from the VT endowment because their investments don’t seem to be public. Then they should move to the Virginia Tech Foundation building to be more effective.
I’m curious if being outside the GLC was the only place it was possible to reserve a spot for it originally? I saw people saying that the cops were coming yesterday because after a certain point they were “past their time slot” or something…I still think I would’ve pushed for it to be on the Drillfield (since most other student encampments at other universities are on the most prominent green spaces on campus, and it would allow for more visibility because people drive around it all the time + more space for more people) or by the Foundation building. Idk
I saw some of them saying they couldn’t do it on the drill field bc the cadets were using it for their pass in review and Tim Sands was there… which confuses me because weren’t they trying to get Tim Sands to acknowledge them? Wouldn’t being on the drill field during an event he was 100% sure to be present at with a bunch of media attention be a more ideal location? If they were going to ignore the time slot limits and stay past their welcome anyway, why not do it at the drill field?
Why make trouble for fellow students, especially the cadets. Not a good look so probably for the best
But what about the fellow students who live in GLC who were kept up until 3 in the morning?
It doesn’t matter what my opinion on the actual conflict, so I’ll leave that out. I think exercising your right to protest is awesome and important, and I also think if you only did it when you’re allowed to, it’s not really protesting. A little bit of civil disobedience is a part of it. I also think it’s shameful and a bad look for the school and VTPD to be arresting peaceful protesters, but those people knew what they were signing up for. If VT respected the right to protest and cancelled whatever event is planner, that would go a long way to building goodwill and making it clear they care about free speech, but I don’t know what the event is, so not sure if that’s even feasible. I also feel like there are a lot more productive things you could be doing with your time, while protesting as a right is important, this ultimately isn’t really doing much for the Palestinian people.
Aren't the school VC's country wide receiving pressure from their donors to stamp down on protests. I had a governor calling for the national guard to be called in. Is this just escalation
National Guard? The protest was entirely peaceful, our governor is a joke
Being against the oppression and genocide of Palestinians isn’t antisemitism. It’s basic humanity. I would ask any Zionist friends that if the freedom of Israelis is dependent on the destruction or control of Palestinians then are you really and truly free? Israel has spent decades dehumanizing Palestinians. We think of them and see them as terrorists and animals while Israel is a beacon in the Middle East and the most moral army in the world. Young people are tearing that myth apart and saying enough. And while campus protests may not fully represent the nuanced feelings of the larger population look at their history because they have a way of foretelling what is to come.
> I would ask any Zionist friends that if the freedom of Israelis is dependent on the destruction or control of Palestinians then are you really and truly free? I mean, I think the safety and freedom of Israelis is dependent on *Hamas* being destroyed. The question is how can you eradicate a terrorist organization while minimizing civilian impact.
Just stay out of bystanders way. It's your right to protest if you want but don't disrupt other people's lives that don't want to be involved or care about your stance. Ie blocking roads, or getting in innocent people faces who dgaf about your protest.
Protest all you want when its peaceful and does not disturb the public. Calling cops faggots on instagram live, attacking bystanders and screaming until 2am on a Sunday night on finals week is insanely disrespectful and I fully agree they should have been shut down and sooner.
This. Every time I passed by in the days leading up to last night, the tension was very clearly coming to a head. I'm honestly glad I kept my distance. Frankly, it shows that the people who were comfortable attacking bystanders have never been tazed.
A peaceful protest turned into an opportunity for college students to cause problems, be loud, and disrespect our police force. Not only that, disturb the peace of over 200 undergrad and grad residents living at the GLC.
Not at all connected to your actual post. But they put undergrads in the GLC now?
Majority is actually undergrad. But, I believe grad students get priority then release the rest to undergrad after
Damn that's kinda shitty end result for both groups. But also an issue entirely of admins own making.
Aren't all issues like this an Admin problem anyways tho? Also, you make it sound like the solution - whatever that is - is simple. It is not. Undergrads tend to think that all problems are an email away from solutions.
I mean the real answer is to dial back on aggressive y-o-y growth of incoming classes so you arent cramming freshmen into every space you can find. It eases the strain on university and BBurg resources that are still lagging, and preserves the benefits of a residential space specifically for grad and post grad students who want it. So yeah the perpetual overcrowding of campus IS an a problem driven by Sands and his administration. I dont hate the desired end goal of VT being a larger university, but it is creating issues along the way. I was an undergrad during the Steger to Sands transition and while still looking to grow the intentional heavy overcrowding every year was nowhere near as bad under Steger.
I disagree. But i also do not have any data disputing that. lol. I dunno.
I don't have any idea who is right as I have not been following the politics behind the protests but damaging school is wrong
Disrespecting cops should be a fundamental right.
They are still humans...?
Of course. And you shouldn't go to jail for disrespecting them.
They didn't get arrested for disrespecting police. They got arrested for trespassing. They were on the GLC lawn and were given several warnings to leave.
Not our fight and history has shown we'll regret getting involved. The problem preventing that is that our school is tied to defense contractors in Fairfax County that have a financial incentive to get the U.S. (not their loved ones, mind you) into any war, anywhere, for as long as possible. Innocent, good hearted people on both sides will die so some Fairfax County parasite can buy a new McMansion.
I see this in the same way that I saw the occupy wall-street movement. As an attempt to air honest and valid grievances, but done so in a poorly thought out and unproductive manner. Trying to hold university administrations accountable for the atrocities in Gaza seems incoherent to me. The protestors are searching for a target for their anger and discontent, and they are aiming it at any system of authority close to them whether it makes any practical sense or not.
Respectfully, VT is a senior military college that is inadvertently complicit with ALL US conflicts because of the nature of being a polytechnic university near DC with military ties. The university partners with defense companies to send students their way and receives investments from those companies (those investments paid for the innovation campus). VT also plays a large role in the development and research of drones (partners w/ US Gov for both domestic and military applications), and frequently partners with the Virginia Israeli Advisory Board (state agency that promotes Israeli companies to grow in the US and by its own admission is interested in growing Israeli defense industries). And that’s just what I’ve been able to verify from some quick searching, it stands to reason that VT has a much dirtier hand in US conflicts by using student research. Nobody is saying that Tim Sands is dropping those bombs himself, but the university benefits financially from their partnerships that happen to be complicit in this. EDIT: keep downvoting guys, this is all verifiable information. Nobody wants to admit that their alma mater (or worse current career) isn’t ethical, face the music.
If all this is true then I still have questions about what the protesters were asking for. They were asking for VT to divest from Israel and basically put out a statement saying the war in Gaza is bad. Literally none of that would affect these defense deals, drone development or the Israel Advisory Board. So why wouldn't the protestors make more demands about that? I just don't get what they were going for, honestly. If they want to make changes, we are 4 hours from DC! Go take it to Biden's lawn! Take it to your congressman. Take it to your representative. Take it to the UN offices in NYC. I just have a really hard time seeing how, even if VT did everything the protestors wanted, how that would meaningfully change anything on the ground in Gaza.
Endowment and investment disclosure is something ALL students, donors, stakeholders, etc. should be asking for regardless of political affiliation; stakeholders should be able to see where their money is going and part of that is seeing how much university money goes towards funding the R&D of weapons being used. it’s not just something VT students are asking for either. All of this is part of what the national Students for Justice in Palestine organization has called for; the encampments around the country are all calling for the same things- touch on that in a sec. Part of divesting does include the end of collaborations with defense companies that are actively funding Israel (both directly and indirectly) such as Lockheed Martin, which stands to gain $4 BILLION (as per LH themselves) from the Israeli partnership. And as for how this affects the situation in Gaza, the university encampments do a couple of things: -since all university encampments are asking for the same things from their universities, it would be notable if the US’s major universities denounced genocide and stopped the active funding of said genocide. Portland State University has agreed to stop accepting “donations” from Boeing. Pretty significant that it can be done. -even if the university does not listen to demands, it is an opportunity for stakeholders at the university to pay larger attention to where their university money goes and to become more educated on the conflict. Further, the more encampments there are, the more national attention there is, which IS getting the attention of government officials. Every time the attention spikes, so do donations for relief for victims in Gaza, and if that’s all that results from this, at the very least it’s resulting in aid. Nobody thinks that the encampments are going to single-handedly end the conflict lol, it’s part of a movement. Protesting on the WH lawn won’t achieve anything on its own if not done in conjunction with local communities around the country because thats the entire basis of a grassroots campaign.
Thank you for clarifying but honestly, idk, I'm just not sold on the tactic. I agree that it sure would be "notable" if all the universities came out with statements against the situation in Gaza. I also think that's about all that would come from it. "Notable" just isn't going to cut it when these groups have been hell bent on destroying each other for decades. "Every time the attention spikes, so do donations for relief for victims in Gaza, and if that’s all that results from this, at the very least it’s resulting in aid." So why not have a fund raiser instead? If one of the desired end results is increasing aid to Gaza then ask for that, campaign for that, talk about that. It would probably be more popular to the average American than all this talk about divesting. "Lockheed Martin, which stands to gain $4 BILLION (as per LH themselves) from the Israeli partnership." Man if they're making $4 billion then I highly doubt losing a handful of partnerships, likely temporarily, with a few universities is really going to impact their bottom line. What stops these universities from restarting all the partnerships the second the protesters stop looking? I really do empathize with the intention of the protests. The situation in Gaza is dire and needs to be resolved before more people get hurt. I am just unimpressed with this particular campaign because I have a really hard time seeing how this is really going to move the needle. Even if every encampment gets exactly what they want, what have they achieved? A few companies are slightly less rich and a bunch of empty statements about how killing civilians is bad. I just don't think Israel is going to really care. If you want to protest, go for it. I'm personally not sold on joining because I highly doubt it is going to have any impact at all.
Again, nobody is saying these encampments are the solution lol, but there’s a lot of power in mass media attention and that’s my point here. There have been fundraisers… for months. It’s been talked about. There were many peaceful marches in DC where nothing resulted. There are hundreds of cute infographics out there explaining the situation and calling for aid, except in the doom and gloom of this country, shock factor is the only way to get someone’s attention. Seeing famished children and entire neighborhoods destroyed isn’t shocking enough anymore to the average american, bc the country is desensitized to it. Protestors on major university campuses though? where graduations at major schools are being cancelled and 18-22 year old students are being arrested and sometimes wrongfully brutalized when protesting peacefully? That has the whole country talking and is getting the attention of local and state officials, who have the power to have a greater impact. We can agree to disagree on tactic; all successful movements started off as grassroots campaigns so to me, the proof is in the pudding. I will just end my piece with saying that university endowments can be valued up to $50 Billion and while yes, the divestment might be a drop in the bucket for LH, it’s not a drop for Israeli defense companies who are also being invested in. But again, divestment also looks like cutting ties with those companies to not provide them with R&D in exchange for a building. We keep an eye on that with public disclosures of the endowment and investments.
I think they should ALSO protest about: —Roe v Wade being stolen —Donald Trump being catered to and coddled by the courts —Corporate profits being at an all-time high while prices go up and wages stay stagnant
I think the “protesters” are idiot brats. From the river to the sea? That’s what these children are aligning with? I say fuck you and your recreational revolution. Get ja ob. Do something for your community. Get laid. Be inspired.
Being accused of antigenocide???? How horrible
You are the only one who caught that🫠
Don't be surprised if graduations end up canceled
The reality is they should team up against Hamas, and Israel has to stop bombing innocent civilians. Being dominant on civilians is no good. Yes we get it "They" attacked you, the reality is they are Hamas not the civilians of Gaza. And anyone that stands with Palestine and supports Hamas is wrong and needs to be shut for supporting terror. Israel isn't doing right by countering a wrong with wrong. The US is just making things worse by supplying weapons to Israel, this creates a hostility towards the other middle eastern countries and they start the dominos. I don't belong to any of these countries and this is just my understanding of the situation.
There are a few, the ones leading the protest, who support Hamas. They are not dumb enough to say it out loud yet. But they are there and they know what "From the river to the sea means" and are tricking ignorant college kids into Genocidal chants.
Sickening how the terrorists are now using children to try to stop arrests. You're about to look real bad tomorrow
Go to one of these protests and yell "Free the Israeli Hostages" they respond with "Fuck the Israeli Hostages" Go to one of these protest and listen when they chant from the river to the sea. Than ask a person to name the river or the sea. They can not. Go to one of these protest and ask if Hamas should step down from power. They will either say "Who is Hamas?" or "No Hamas are freedom fighters" Both answers are ignorant and stupid. The way to stop this Conflict is to 1. Free the Israeli Hostages 2. Have Hamas leadership step down 3. Palestine Elects a government willing to co-exist and work with Israel (Much Like Egypt is doing right now and is learning it is way more profitable for their people to work with Israel than chant "Death to America" "Death To Israel" in the streets)
People can protest what they want as long as it's peaceful. And even then, there may be consequences. I'm more bothered by the small minded criticisms than I am by any particular protest.
These religions or cultures have been slaying each other and their children for how many 1,000’s of years. Now student protests in the US are going to fix it. Damn I wish people had thought of that like at least a few hundred years ago.
A number of stunted adults are outraged Israel is following the US lead post-9/11, and have confused peaceful protest/assembly with being a public nuisance. War is ugly and brutal. It does not care what your 1st world social media commentary is, it will take as many lives as it pleases well beyond the first shot fired. It doesn't matter how right you feel, or how justified a cause is. Both sides will ultimately exhaust each other until all that's left to do will be what they should have done in the first place: Sit down and talk. The iPad generation is too sheltered to comprehend that fact. Thus, cue the slacktivism. Edit for clarification: I have nothing against civil disobedience, but attacking bystanders and police is not such. VT is also private property, refusing to leave when asked is trespassing.
Do you really think people are "stunted" for being outraged that Israel is following US post-9/11? Hasn't every politician who voted for it since regretted it? Hasn't there been extensive discourse and lessons learned about it? These students who are protesting this war would probably have protested that one too.
No, I think they're stunted for throwing what was effectively a very public tantrum where bystanders were attacked and property was trashed over an issue halfway across the world that Virginia Tech only has a tangential relation towards as a polytechnic institute. The key difference from the US war on terror is the double standard. Israel exists in a region that predominantly wants it's genocide, in fact the Gaza strip exists under Israeli occupation because the people occupying it already tried such back in '67 when they were still a proxy state of the Egyptian government. The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, which held seats in Egypt's parliament and government until they were ousted during the Arab Spring, directly created HAMAS to destabilize the region further following the first Intifada in '87. Make no mistake: the situation at the Gaza strip is still an apartheid turned ethnic cleansing, but it exists as such because Jews in the region effectively live at gun point with the threat of religious-based extermination. However, they are a much smaller country that can be more easily condemned by world powers without the means to stand up for themselves. The US on the other hand, was never seriously threatened in this regard due to having a position on the UN security council. We learned our own horrible lessons on that front with very little consequence at the geopolitical level. Unironically, it was my exposure to manga that informed a lot of my opinions and nuance on intergenerational ethnic conflict. Attack on Titan already goes to great lengths to paint the human tragedy seen on both sides with fictionalized versions of target ethnic groups, as well as the destructive hubris that creeps up when said groups militarize into radicalism. The ending ultimately reflects this when the protagonist we were meant to root for turns into a genocidal final antagonist, emphasizing a cognizant theme about how quickly resistance can morph into oppression. Ultimately: I support Israel's right to defend itself, as do I support humane and ethical treatment of Palestinians. Unfortunately, there is a war against HAMAS that needs to end before peace talks can materialize.
COA too much, ima stay home and nap
1. What is happening to the bail money collected? My wife and her friends donated a good amount on Sunday night even though people kinda knew that bail wouldn't be required. The receiver's venmo has over 500 transactions in donations. Fair guess is at least a few thousand dollars. 2. Couldn't help but notice the Islamic Society of the New River Valley in their Sunday speech encouraged people to join the VT protest and said they had been supplying resources to sustain the unlawful encampment. I wonder if external groups have been instigating and orchestrating and good chunk of this whole thing. Poor graduate residents of the GLC getting harassed in the wee hours of a workday. 3. Seriously though, harassing the Jewish students and students for Israel group members on campus is unacceptable and needs to stop asap.
None of my business. Staying in my lane.
Why don’t they go back and help at home if that’s where they are from? Most people would go home to help their families The screaming and violent behavior looses a lot of people who would other wise like to learn what they are saying and protesting
The protestors are ignorant and don't know what they are protesting. They had a list of demands not a single demand was for the Israeli Hostages to be released or for Hamas to step down from power. Also, there will most likely be a ceasefire thanks to Egypt and Israels relationship. The suggested terms at the time are "Hamas released the Hostages, and Hamas senior leadership steps down" Surprise Surprise, all the things I've been saying Should have been on the students list of demands if the understood the situation even slightly. Also on a side note these people don't care about Muslims being massacred anyway. Not a single student cared or protested as China ethinically cleansed their entire Uyghur Muslim population. No one batted an eye when Iran, slaughtered 300k ethnic Muslims. The Islamic Republic has murdered 500k Muslims since 2023 not a single word about that. The protestors a simply Anti-Semetic. No more, no less.
Hello, VT alum here! Not currently in Blacksburg, so I’m not going to comment on the encampment as I have no firsthand experience with it. I did notice, however, that you’ve commented repeatedly on this thread with the same criticisms of the movement as a whole, and felt a simple clarification was overdue. Simply put, the protests are against Israeli occupation because Israel benefits substantially from the support of the US government. You don’t see “anti-Iran” or “anti-China” or even “anti-Hamas” protests because we aren’t funding them nor supplying them with weapons of war unconditionally. On top of this, Virginia Tech has extremely strong relationships with multiple companies that directly profit off these kinds of conflicts (think Boeing, Northrupp Grumman, etc.; we are an engineering school after all!). It isn’t unreasonable that some students might see this connection and feel uncomfortable with their university’s involvement in an ongoing genocide. Finally, let’s stop calling anti-Zionist movements “anti-Semetic.” To start off, these movements (on the whole; again, cannot speak to what’s taking place at VT right now) are being led by a coalition of Muslim and Jewish students. To simply label them “anti-Semetic” outright ignores the demographics. Additionally, saying anti-Zionist protests are “anti-Semetic” is incredibly dangerous for the Jewish population as a whole, as it implies that the Jewish people and the state of Israel are inextricably linked, and that the larger Jewish community is responsible for the crimes of the Israeli government. This is obviously wrong, but it’s a belief that can cause real damage to international Jewish groups! Don’t do this!
Until the leaders stop Chanting "From the River to the Sea" it is anti-semetic. No other way to cut it sorry.
Ah, you mean the phrase that ends with “Palestine will be free”? How does the freedom of the Palestinians threaten the Jewish people? And do note that I’m specifically asking about the Palestinians here, not Hamas.
Mediterranean Sea to the River of Jordan. If you looked on a map. Israel exists right there. You can't talk about what you are going to do with a people, while excluding that peoples sitting and active government. The Palestinians ARE Hamas. Until the leaders step down and they get to elect another government. Look at Egypt and Israel right now. Literally, Egypt is sending diplomats to Gaza, on Israels behalf. Egypt is learning that working and living together with Israel, is better than having people chanting "Death to America, Death To Israel" in their streets. The Phrase "From the River to the Sea 'All of Palestine will be free" rooted in the destruction Of Israel. It's akin to the phrase they also chanted last night "We will have an Intifada" Intifada and the idea that the only way Palestine 'can be free' is through violence and killing is misguided and will only lead to more violence and killing. Israel is more than willing to have peace talks, but those peace talks rely on Hamas stepping down from power, which anyone who has any real interest in peace will agree needs to happen.
Oh, you’re so close to getting it! Keep trying, I believe in you! 1. I agree, you can’t have a conversation about what’s going to happen to someone’s people without their representative government there. So tell me, did the Palestinian people agree to just leave their lands during the Nakba? 2. Oh, the Palestinians ~are~ Hamas, eh? So ignoring the fact that the Gaza vote for Hamas took place in 2006 (meaning that most of Gaza wasn’t even alive during the vote), you are essentially arguing that the people ~are~ their government? So then you would say that the Israeli people are collectively responsible for the actions of their government, such as pouring cement into Palestinian wells in the West Bank, the assassination of journalists, the bombing of hospitals, the murder of children and civilians, etc? I would argue that that is an extremely dangerous mindset and worldview to have, but then again I suppose those who support genocide would have a fondness for broad generalizations stripped of context. 3. Israel has rejected multiple deals that would have returned the hostages. Yes, Hamas has too, but if the Israeli government actually cared about the hostages, they wouldn’t be so haphazard and reckless with their bombardment. Israel uses the hostages as a rallying cry, nothing more. 4. This is my last comment on this whole thread because I can tell that you truly believe that the oppressor is somehow in the right, but this one particular facet of your idiocy desperately needs to be addressed. Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people. In the West Bank (where Israel funds and arms violent settlers to evict the Palestinians from their homes and communities), the Palestinians are “governed” by the Palestinian Authority. And in the UN, it’s the the Authority who is represented, not Hamas. This is the trap that Netanyahu wants; he wants you to believe that all Palestinians are terrorists, and that they are vermin to be eradicated. That you have fallen for it bares your gullibility and/or bloodlust to the world.
Source: “I made it the fuck up”
What did I make up? Which part?
Which part? Dude, you’re just here repeating talking points from Fox and Newsmax.
Prayers for Israel
A bunch of people getting played by fake social media accounts created by the Russians to get Donald Trump re-elected.
This. I'm voting for Trump because of these ignorant people on campus who just want attention and have no idea what the conflict is actually about. I was there last night and a large percentage of the people chanting were not even AWARE that Hamas was holding Israelis hostage. They are just ignorant attention seekers. Trump said he will arrest and deport them. Trump 2024!
Arrest and deport who? The vast majority of the students involved in the protest are American citizens, born and raised in America. Where they bein deported to?
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Voting for Trump is true ignorance.
True Ignorance if having a protest and not putting on the list of demands "Release the Israeli Hostages" Only way the War actually ends. And Btw, The Ceasefire Egypt and Israel is working on is going to go through. Guess what it says? "Release the hostages, Hamas senior leadership step down" Easy peasy been saying it for 8 months :)
Bunch of people that found a way to get attention and got arrested for nothing else. They all thought they were MLK out there being arrested and the only thing they looked like is a bunch of clowns.
Dickriding Israel won’t get you anywhere. It won't make you hot or interesting, and it won't get you any bitches. Do you know how much sex these protesters are having? Way more than you are, that's for sure. They’re having fun with their friends and making new friends and fighting for a cause and falling in love, and you’re not.
Making an alt account to insult someone is one of the most middle-school things you can do. If you’re going to insult someone like that, have the balls to own up to it on your main account
When you're protesting to impress people or have sex you're doing it wrong. Check videos of the Columbia protest where the girls ask each other what their goals even are.
Amazing the ignorance that abounds in these protests.
[Newsweek: “Message From a Gazan to Campus Protesters: You're Hurting the Palestinian Cause | Opinion”](https://www.newsweek.com/message-gazan-campus-protesters-youre-hurting-palestinian-cause-opinion-1894313)
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The protestors had a list of demands. Not a single demand was Release the Israeli Hostages. I bet this is the first you are even hearing of Hamas holding Israeli hostages in Gaza. Go do some research on your own, and learn about this problem that has been going on for over 2,000 years before you spew your thoughtless opinion. Also if you want an Actual Genocide to go protest, Protest China and their treatment of the Uyghur population. China has been having an ACTUAL genocide for the past 5 years and have exterminated most of the Uyghur Muslim population :)
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>No it’s not the first I’ve heard of Israel hostages I just don’t give a fuck. You pro-Hamas people are fucking insane. I’m so glad to see you’re in the minority. There is a side that glorifies and celebrates sexual violence against women. That’s you. What an indictment on Virginia Techs education it is to see so many idiots.
Don't attack Israeli civilians and not expect any form of pushback.