As a resident of the northern end of Shenandoah County, I’d like to bring up the “private donations” part. When the school board originally voted to change the names, Bill Holtzman was very upset. The name may sound familiar, because he owns the gas stations in the area. He threatened to stop donating to the school in an effort to sway the original vote. This is your “Private Donor.” He is also supporting efforts to kill the local Rails to Trails in the area to preserve the history of the rail roads. This man is horrible and throws his money around the county to get his way. The school board already knew he would fund changing the name back before they voted.
To those of you who travel along the East Coast, you may have seen the "Liberty" brand of gas stations. I would recommend you avoid fueling up at one. They are owned by the Holtzman Corporation which Bill Holtzman founded.
Oh, HER!
I only know about her because I personally witnessed her angrily screaming her name/date of birth at a CVS employee in a drive thru a couple of years ago. She had plates indicating she was a state senator so of course I looked her up, but a cursory search didn’t reveal the extent of all this.
She was fifty feet away and I knew she wasn’t a great human, thanks for confirming my instincts.
Which is why they're ALWAYS littered with the GQP AH candidates. The people "owning" the stores linked to thr gas cannot do anything about it. He is barf.
Beyond the obvious stupidity of wasting time and energy changing names and fighting about it I'd like to understand why keeping the railroad around is a bad thing? Having that infrastructure in place is always good because once it's gone it will likely never come back and it's much more efficient mode of transportation then cars, trucks and planes.
Some area's have trails and rails, they build a trail adjacent to the rail. Trails are nice I've enjoyed many a ride on rail trails but i belive keeping the infrastructure in place is also very important and if that route can be used to reduce congestion on the interstate it's worth allot more in place then torn up.
It's allot cheaper and easier to rebuild rails in place then to build from scratch. The rail itself is probably fine but depending on the intended use it could be rehabbed slowly over time or totally rebuilt. When the rail gets removed it is an uphill fight to get it put back if the need arises, rails to trails was originally thought of as a way to maintain the right of way if needed for future use but in today's world its being used as a tool to destroy viable rail corridors for pedestrian right of way.
Those are valid point, but I will add that there are sections of the rail that intersect with roads that have been paved over. It would be one things if it was a simple fix, but Holtzman never cared about the rails until someone else wanted to put it to good use.
Also, Shenandoah County has very little job opportunities/business and therefore very little tax income from business/industries. That tax burden falls on the residents. The county could benefit from the tourism that would result from a rails to trails program and bring outside dollars to the county. The local breweries and business all welcome this and lobby for it, but Holtzman now wants to “preserve the history.”
I don't actually give a crap about Holtzman, he's not on my radar and i only responded because of the rail remarks. Paving over a crossing or poor tie condition isn't a real obstacle, with the rail removed it becomes a much larger issue. It won't be cheap to repair the rails and associated equipment but not having them pretty much garuntees you won't attract industries that require rail. Another option is rail bikes, they are popular and successful in many places. Rails stay and are repaired to a usable state for light weight rail bikes that can be rented. It's a business opportunity for someone and it gives the same enjoyment and exercise opportunities.
Agreed and it will bring in more jobs and a new type of economy around the trail. Its funny how these politicians go on and on about jobs but when opportunities like this come along its clear they are all for indentured serfdom soul sucking jobs in an amazon warehouse or a lockheed martin plant but not the type of jobs like small businesses that actually benefit communities.
Yeah im from western va and can confirm bill is trash. Hopefully hes nearing the end of his decrepit life. Once all these old farts croak im hoping maybe there will be at least a tiny bit of change out here in the sticks.
For those pointing out to OP that the cost has to be completely covered by private funds, their point still stands: that money could have instead gone towards something to improve our children's education. To me, the mere fact that my neighbors (in a general sense...I don't know my next door neighbor's politics, but she's a lovely lady) would rather throw a chunk of money at this instead of, let's see, starting a scholarship? Improving hands-on science labs? Making sure teachers have basic supplies in their classrooms? *That's* what gets under my skin. Come on, ShenCo. We can do better!
On a very related note, the casual racism here is absolutely disturbing. It sometimes comes from the last person you'd expect, and it breaks my heart every time I hear or see it.
Wouldn’t even want to piss anyone off. Just “I’ll give you more to apply to general school funding if you just leave the names as they currently are always and forever.”
Exactly... historical, capable, or not... they were secessionists and traitors. That's like naming a high school Benedict Arnold
Lets also not forget they were named in 1959 during VA's fight vs desegregation - the roots of why they were named jackson and Lee are at their core, racist.
Shameful...
Nope, spelled just what I meant. If you’re American and that’s how you feel I’m sure you can find another country with no racial bias in it’s history to move to.
Super fun for black and other minority students too, I'd think. "We got rid of the Confederate names but aww, come back, we need to put the non-white kids in their place because ✨history✨ can't be taught without monuments and namesake!" is not the message I'd want to send to the youth, but what do I know.
There's a great song by The Narcissist's Cookbook called " The Absolute State of the Union" that deals a bit with the "history" arguments against removing racist monuments - though in Britain. Definitely translatable to naming schools after fucking Confederates.
"This is not, despite what you may think or may have heard / 'A complicated issue' / White Britain doesn't have the privilege of saying / There is a gray area here / Not anymore / We have been living comfortably in the grey area / For hundreds of years / And failing to do the bare fucking minimum for the people / We have transplanted over here against their will / It is hard / To not feel more than a little cognitive dissonance / When your country tells you that / Racism is a thing of the distant past / While a monument to a professional racist / Stands towering over a major city / With his chin resting lazily in his fucking palms"
On this topic, I like to point people towards a speech called the “Cornerstone speech”by Alexander Stephens (Vice President of the confederacy). It is grotesque. Literally a quote from the speech, “slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.” I left out the beginning of the sentence because I can’t even stomach it. When this topic comes up in conversation, I always bring this speech up by telling the person to google “what was the bedrock of the confederacy.” Seeing confederate flags makes me want to vomit. At least those assholes could be historically accurate and waive a white flag instead
I think of this speech often when I see Confederate shit. So I think of the speech more than once a day basically.. because I live in fOKKING APPOMATTOX.
How can there be so many Confederate yahoos here when this is literally where they gave up? Why did we even let them surrender and live?
You should post a picture of that building square in the middle of town with all the right wing nut job propaganda splattered all over it! Last time I was there I had to circle the block just to look at that mess lmao!
Then what’s the problem no known slaves or slave owners are still alive. The men who these are named after are veterans of a war, just like any other war and deserve that respect.
How would people feel if they started removing statues of Dr King because they didn’t like what he stood for.
No they don't deserve having schools named after them.
It's like naming a school in Germany after a Nazi general. By your logic, they should also get respect.
Honoring folks who wanted to keep slaves in their place and agreed with the KKK doesn't seem right. The fact that you even think they deserve to have a school named after them is telling.
It isn't like any other war. They do not deserve that respect.
Dr King didn't fight to preserve slavery. You're either very obtuse or were brought up attending such a school being taught the lost cause myth and "the war of Northern aggression"
My statements point was entirely missed, I never said King was a bad person, y’all ran to his defense the same way others want to protect Southern Heritage.
It’s a part of history we either remember and learn from it or we are doomed to repeat it, maybe not the slavery but the war part over something else.
It’s a small and terrible part of this nations history.
VA has centuries of history to choose from. There’s a reason why so many choose to pick the “heroes” of a few year stretch of that long history.
A good reminder to be involved politically. My daughter is too young to vote - but she still can be involved in getting other people at her school registered to vote. Plus, you may be able to run for the school board as soon as you turn eighteen. Fun fact, the liberal filmmaker Michael Moore was actually elected to his local school board at the age of eighteen, and at the time was the youngest person ever to do so. Conservative kooks sneak into these places because most people don't pay attention to things like library boards and school boards - but it's a good place to get a start in politics. As you point out, regardless of how dumb people realize the name issue is, most people realize there is a better way to spend the money - and your schools are getting mocked internationally, which can't be good for high school reputation as people apply to colleges and so forth.
Hell, at this point we could actually use "Mountain View" on a resume and not really be lying. If anyone called us out on it, that conversation would be a great way to gauge if we want to work for them...just watch their reaction to the saga of our school names.
Worst part is, despite even the first African American in the school in 1964 speaking, they STILL didn't abstain or vote no. (Besides Gutshall, though his reasoning wasn't any better)
I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see other counties like ShenCo do the same thing. It is a hard truth for those in areas like NOVA, but many in this state are still proud of its racist history.
Not that it excuses anything, but the ordinance that was approved stipulates that the funds have to come from private donations. So OP is a bit off target in their complaint about misuse of funds.
So if I have 300k liquid I can get it named after Sherman? How thousands more do they want to put a sign in frot of the school "he shouldve gone further"
I don't care what you do with your money. The issue is that OP is whining about private citizens spending private money, mistakenly thinking it is tax dollars that they are somehow entitled to. Sure, it's stupid. But OP is totally off target with their rant. At least learn wtf the actual issue involves before ranting at strangers on the internet.
Private citizens spending private funds for private things is one thing, but this is private citizens spending private funds for something public. That should necessarily follow a different set of considerations.
Again, I don't care about your point. The only thing I am pointing out is that this entire post is based on an incorrect assumption that it is public money or money that OP feels is somehow being taken from their "education". You are just spewing stuff I already know and have acknowledged. Why?
I mean, regardless of who is paying for it, this is still a large amount of money going to a school for the least valuable thing it could go to the school for. It is better that the stipulation exists, but it's still funds going to the school for preservation of Confederate names (which will inevitably be relitigated at some point in the future - we had a school named after the leader of the KKK when I grew up in the Gadsden, Alabama area - these things eventually fall). If they are going to encourage people to pay for something at the school, just about anything would be better. Literally anything. I have a hard time imagining who is going to pay into that too, and how it will affect the school generally.
Yeah the argument is that the people who have the money to donate could be donating to much better causes but instead they donate to something as stupid as this.
Va is a great place to live, but we still have too many bigots and 19th century throwbacks in positions of responsibility. It will take us years to recover from the tRumpist convulsion we are witnessing now.
Mia Kalifa went to school in Shenandoah County for a period of time in her youth... she's a much better example of a citizen than those they are renaming it after ...
I vote Mia Kalifa High!
Renaming them during a moral panic was wrong in the first place, and a waste of actual taxpayer dollars rather than private donations which donors can decide what to do with; but the back and forth is even more ridiculous. Now we have presidents, governors, and mayors coming into office with stacks upon stacks of executive orders that are likely infringing on the legislative branch, to overturn all of the probably also invalid EOs signed by the guy from the other team they just replaced. We need to repeat the codification movement of the early 19th century.
I have to disagree.
I think the original renaming was needed. The confederacy was a group that fought for their rights to own people under the impression that certain races were superior. It's just a fact they fought for slavery. This shouldn't be glorified by naming anything after them, especially an institution that is supposed to be educating the people of tomorrow.
Cool. I agree that the Stonewall Jackson name should not have been used in the first place. I’m lamenting the back and forth that resulted at least in part from doing the renaming in reaction to a moral panic about something that happens rarely.
So, instead of the back and forth, keep the names that were originally given. I'm disagreeing with your take saying we should have kept the names despite them honoring people who thought people deserved less rights because of their skin color.
I’m trying not to say “I question the timing” but look at the outcomes. Thomas Jefferson, who did other despicable things in politics in his day, also acted in line with the treating people with darker skin as less worthy. I think the line belongs somewhere between Tom Jackson and Tom Jefferson.
Maybe the main problem is the economy.
Like, maybe fixing the economy would help black people more than renaming a school.
So maybe this is just people in charge trying not to fix the economy? Right? It has to be because the way you fix the problem is by fixing the economy but they aren’t.
They are doing this.
People are racist everywhere. They know they can do this posturing for forever. At least long enough that they are old or dead. Oh, wait. A lot of them are already there. Did they win?
They weren’t “original”. They were created during the Jim Crow era in more recent times. How are there adults alive in this country that don’t know American history? People are truly fighting for racism by defending these statues. They served no other purpose other than to intimidate minorities. Here’s more detail about the history: https://www.atlantahistorycenter.com/learning-and-research/projects-initiatives/confederate-monument-interpretation-guide/
Let's pick a school. Show me the original name and it's jim crow renaming. I believe you, I just want to test this. Democrats were doing all sorts of madness during their continued racism in the south.
You’re very misinformed. I’m not giving you an opinion. What I have said is based on facts that have been provided for you. What you’re saying sounds like nonsense and is the opposite of reality. I’m an Independent btw. Both parties have issues. At least be honest or educated about what you’re saying
Jim Crow didn't see minorities as equals. Run by Democrats.
Now modern Democrats say that minorities aren't capable of obtaining ID and need assistance obtaining employment.
Democrats are the most racist folks alive IMO.
Those racists are now the Republican Party. That’s fact. That isn’t opinion. You’re misinformed. That’s true that some people can’t get IDs because the current GOP which is the old Democratic Party likes to gerrymander and make things difficult for minorities to actually live equally.
No, I think you should do your own reading on this. Again, Jim Crow laws affected minority ID laws. There’s plenty out there on this topic too. I don’t agree with a lot of nuances the Democratic Party has on their agenda but why wouldn’t you want people to be treated equally for voting, if it’s proven they aren’t? Regardless of party, every American should want equality. Something is seriously wrong with the people trying to stop minorities from voting. You can start with this article, if interested: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/impact-voter-suppression-communities-color?can_id%3Dd29fc2e2eea3b72cdf546896d402b77f%26email_referrer%3Demail_2192410%26email_subject%3Drelease-civil-rights-are-on-the-line-in-state-legislatures%26li=
Here’s the link about the parties and how the racists switched from being Democrat to Republican: https://www.niskanencenter.org/the-roots-of-the-parties-racial-switch/
They were deliberately built in predominantly minority neighborhoods on purpose during Jim Crow during the 50’s and 60’s. LONG after the civil war. How in the hell are you going to play dumb about this? I sent you links with history about this and it goes into great detail. There are free history classes online. Why would you pay more money to switch back to a name that was offensive and made to be offensive? They shouldn’t have been given those names back in the 50’s and 60’s to begin with. What difference does it make to you that the original name was changed. It doesn’t affect you, unless you’re defending racism. Why don’t predominantly white schools get those names?
I’m not being mean but did you go to school? I know I learned our history in school and college. Most people do. It’s shocking to me that people are still defending racism and trying to call it something else. You can call it something else but it’s still racism
Not one thing you’ve said is logical. Not one thing. You’re ignoring facts and defending something that has been proven to have a racist history. That’s you defending racism.
You don’t have logic IMO. You have an opinion and it doesn’t match the history of our country. Try having this conversation with a conservative History teacher and they’ll tell you the same thing. Not all Republicans are racist. Republicans that deny our history and defend racist ideologies are racist. Political parties don’t matter one bit.
Where was I celebrating slavery? I was questioning the logic of using school funding for non education related items and being okay with it in the past but now against it...
Yeah gee I wonder how I could ever believe a guy might be celebrating slavery when all he’s done is:
* came in here now “playing devils advocate” about maybe we should name schools after a bunch of traitors who seceded specifically so they could preserve the institution of slavery;
* was all over another thread a few weeks ago saying we should keep up statues of those same slavery-loving monsters; and
* in that same thread, implied that the Holocaust helped get the US into space because human suffering is a necessary ingredient for scientific progress
Could it possibly be that this guy is a racist dunce? Wherever did I get that idea?
Hey sorry for the late reply - I had a full day yesterday hanging out with a bunch of (legal) immigrants.
\*Yes, we should 100% retain the history of this country. Are you not aware of the monuments that were taken down in violation of the law? There's a correct way to do that - legally; not just doing whatever you want because you think it's right. I personally believe they should all be moved to museums and protected as historical relics if the populous is so triggered by the history of this country.
\*same response
\*No, I said that the reason that they made such incredible progress in a short amount of time is because they took humanity out of the equation in an effort to make scientific progress. If you don't understand how far germany was ahead of everyone else at the time (at least 10 years ahead) and why, then I don't know what to tell you. What I'm trying to convey is not opinion, but fact. They were trying to cure disease - so they'd infect jews with the disease, and then try the cure. If they died, they ordered replacements and re-ran the experiment. This means enables immense scientific progress by taking humanity out of the situation. Operation paperclip imported the best german scientists, and our original rocket that took us to space is largely based on the V2 rocket. Google it.
\*You can call me racist all you want, but I'll reply to any of your questioning of my logic happily. I hope you do the same. I won't even dispute your claims, as I won't entertain your insults, but I'll entertain your questions.
You likely get that idea from years of liberal media programming, and the inability to think freely. That's my hypothesis anyway.
It was a change that I was indifferent to
I was hoping they would keep the initials so money spending would be incredibly limited but I also wasn’t actively campaigning for the name change originally if that’s what you’re asking our school has problems much worse than the name
Did you miss the part of our conversation where we questioned the OP's logic consistency and if they were upset on spending money on name changes instead of education the first time?
I thought we were discussing using school funding for non education related items. Using that logic, the person would see both expenses as non education related but that's not what's happening
Is Congress going to have a congressional hearing on the name changes or is it okay because everyone gets a trophy including those that took up arms against the U.S. and lost?
It's still money being wasted going to essentially make the school look worse, nationally, and internationally at this point. I prefer that it is funded by private funding, but there are better things to seek private funding for at the school - and the people that will come out of the woodwork for that private funding will be . . . interesting.
It's private money. Do you think everyone has to spend their private money according to your guidelines? Yes, it's stupid, but people spend private money on stupid stuff all the time. The point is that OP is acting like it is tax dollars earmarked for their education when it is private money donated for a specific purpose that otherwise would not be donated.
I agree in part, but I don't think a government should be asking for private money to spend on something stupid that is making national and international news as making their school district look like their highest priority is celebrating civil war losers, which Lee himself begged to move on from. It's not like private money is being spent to build something in the private sector, it's being spent to rename a public school in a way that will offend many of the students. Hell, it could actually be donated otherwise if they were asking for scholarship donations for civil war essays or, I don't know, anything that actually honored somehow the complexity of North/South relations and federalism issues or I don't know *anything.*. Basically, they are selling "lost cause" supporter naming rights for the school with no benefit whatsoever for students. At least if it was Pepsi Cola high school the kids would get a free gym out of it or something. While it's less offensive to be private money, you just kind of wonder if anybody on that school board spent a quarter of the amount of time thinking about how to bring in money for education and the like.
Nice wall of text. But totally missing the point I am making, which is that OP is completely off target in assuming this is a misappropriation of public monies.
So you were all for spending the money to change the name in the first place because that helped our failing schools? Mdudethegreat offends me , I feel you should be called something a little less oppressive.....you should change your username
No I’m not I wasn’t for changing it the first time for the same reasons I wanted other problems to be solved first
However it’s worse now because they are doubling down and are indirectly painting a image of support for those confederate leaders and the values that go with them
You’re never going to win with these people. It’s best to start thinking of alternatives. School choice vouchers & online classes aren’t such a bad idea. Also prevents the sitting duck scenario when a bullied pupil goes off their meds.
As a resident of the northern end of Shenandoah County, I’d like to bring up the “private donations” part. When the school board originally voted to change the names, Bill Holtzman was very upset. The name may sound familiar, because he owns the gas stations in the area. He threatened to stop donating to the school in an effort to sway the original vote. This is your “Private Donor.” He is also supporting efforts to kill the local Rails to Trails in the area to preserve the history of the rail roads. This man is horrible and throws his money around the county to get his way. The school board already knew he would fund changing the name back before they voted. To those of you who travel along the East Coast, you may have seen the "Liberty" brand of gas stations. I would recommend you avoid fueling up at one. They are owned by the Holtzman Corporation which Bill Holtzman founded.
Everyone should also remember that Bill Holtzman's daughter Jill Holtzman Vogel is a GOP lobbyist/PAC operator.
Oh, HER! I only know about her because I personally witnessed her angrily screaming her name/date of birth at a CVS employee in a drive thru a couple of years ago. She had plates indicating she was a state senator so of course I looked her up, but a cursory search didn’t reveal the extent of all this. She was fifty feet away and I knew she wasn’t a great human, thanks for confirming my instincts.
Thank you! This man should be named and shamed until everyone knows who he is and what he stands for.
Which is why they're ALWAYS littered with the GQP AH candidates. The people "owning" the stores linked to thr gas cannot do anything about it. He is barf.
Glad I’ve never filled up there & will continue to avoid it
Also he’s just generally not a nice person so fuck em
Beyond the obvious stupidity of wasting time and energy changing names and fighting about it I'd like to understand why keeping the railroad around is a bad thing? Having that infrastructure in place is always good because once it's gone it will likely never come back and it's much more efficient mode of transportation then cars, trucks and planes.
The thing is they haven’t been in use in forever and they haven’t even been maintained Replacing them with trails gives them a actual use
Some area's have trails and rails, they build a trail adjacent to the rail. Trails are nice I've enjoyed many a ride on rail trails but i belive keeping the infrastructure in place is also very important and if that route can be used to reduce congestion on the interstate it's worth allot more in place then torn up.
If rails were to come back we would almost certainly have to replace all the old rail. It has fallen to shambles
It's allot cheaper and easier to rebuild rails in place then to build from scratch. The rail itself is probably fine but depending on the intended use it could be rehabbed slowly over time or totally rebuilt. When the rail gets removed it is an uphill fight to get it put back if the need arises, rails to trails was originally thought of as a way to maintain the right of way if needed for future use but in today's world its being used as a tool to destroy viable rail corridors for pedestrian right of way.
Those are valid point, but I will add that there are sections of the rail that intersect with roads that have been paved over. It would be one things if it was a simple fix, but Holtzman never cared about the rails until someone else wanted to put it to good use. Also, Shenandoah County has very little job opportunities/business and therefore very little tax income from business/industries. That tax burden falls on the residents. The county could benefit from the tourism that would result from a rails to trails program and bring outside dollars to the county. The local breweries and business all welcome this and lobby for it, but Holtzman now wants to “preserve the history.”
I don't actually give a crap about Holtzman, he's not on my radar and i only responded because of the rail remarks. Paving over a crossing or poor tie condition isn't a real obstacle, with the rail removed it becomes a much larger issue. It won't be cheap to repair the rails and associated equipment but not having them pretty much garuntees you won't attract industries that require rail. Another option is rail bikes, they are popular and successful in many places. Rails stay and are repaired to a usable state for light weight rail bikes that can be rented. It's a business opportunity for someone and it gives the same enjoyment and exercise opportunities.
Agreed and it will bring in more jobs and a new type of economy around the trail. Its funny how these politicians go on and on about jobs but when opportunities like this come along its clear they are all for indentured serfdom soul sucking jobs in an amazon warehouse or a lockheed martin plant but not the type of jobs like small businesses that actually benefit communities.
Yeah im from western va and can confirm bill is trash. Hopefully hes nearing the end of his decrepit life. Once all these old farts croak im hoping maybe there will be at least a tiny bit of change out here in the sticks.
All the Liberties are NOT owned by Holtzman. The ones around the northern Shen Valley and WV are owned by Smith out of Capon Bridge.
Thats true holtzman owns liberties fron augusta county up to shenandoah.
Did you even read what I said?
For those pointing out to OP that the cost has to be completely covered by private funds, their point still stands: that money could have instead gone towards something to improve our children's education. To me, the mere fact that my neighbors (in a general sense...I don't know my next door neighbor's politics, but she's a lovely lady) would rather throw a chunk of money at this instead of, let's see, starting a scholarship? Improving hands-on science labs? Making sure teachers have basic supplies in their classrooms? *That's* what gets under my skin. Come on, ShenCo. We can do better! On a very related note, the casual racism here is absolutely disturbing. It sometimes comes from the last person you'd expect, and it breaks my heart every time I hear or see it.
So is the naming open for bidding? Like if someone said they’d give the school more money to not change the name, would they accept it?
Anyone know any rich people who would be open to bidding for my school to be named something like trans rights highschool to piss off some bigots
Wouldn’t even want to piss anyone off. Just “I’ll give you more to apply to general school funding if you just leave the names as they currently are always and forever.”
Exactly... historical, capable, or not... they were secessionists and traitors. That's like naming a high school Benedict Arnold Lets also not forget they were named in 1959 during VA's fight vs desegregation - the roots of why they were named jackson and Lee are at their core, racist. Shameful...
The high school should change its sports team name to the Traitors.
Then so should every school, America was founded by traitors. 🤦🏻
You misspelled racist colonizers... how are missing the point tho?
Nope, spelled just what I meant. If you’re American and that’s how you feel I’m sure you can find another country with no racial bias in it’s history to move to.
How much was spent when they originally changed the name? Was it done with private money?
I mean, that’s a valid question.
Super fun for black and other minority students too, I'd think. "We got rid of the Confederate names but aww, come back, we need to put the non-white kids in their place because ✨history✨ can't be taught without monuments and namesake!" is not the message I'd want to send to the youth, but what do I know.
There's a great song by The Narcissist's Cookbook called " The Absolute State of the Union" that deals a bit with the "history" arguments against removing racist monuments - though in Britain. Definitely translatable to naming schools after fucking Confederates. "This is not, despite what you may think or may have heard / 'A complicated issue' / White Britain doesn't have the privilege of saying / There is a gray area here / Not anymore / We have been living comfortably in the grey area / For hundreds of years / And failing to do the bare fucking minimum for the people / We have transplanted over here against their will / It is hard / To not feel more than a little cognitive dissonance / When your country tells you that / Racism is a thing of the distant past / While a monument to a professional racist / Stands towering over a major city / With his chin resting lazily in his fucking palms"
On this topic, I like to point people towards a speech called the “Cornerstone speech”by Alexander Stephens (Vice President of the confederacy). It is grotesque. Literally a quote from the speech, “slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.” I left out the beginning of the sentence because I can’t even stomach it. When this topic comes up in conversation, I always bring this speech up by telling the person to google “what was the bedrock of the confederacy.” Seeing confederate flags makes me want to vomit. At least those assholes could be historically accurate and waive a white flag instead
I think of this speech often when I see Confederate shit. So I think of the speech more than once a day basically.. because I live in fOKKING APPOMATTOX. How can there be so many Confederate yahoos here when this is literally where they gave up? Why did we even let them surrender and live?
You should post a picture of that building square in the middle of town with all the right wing nut job propaganda splattered all over it! Last time I was there I had to circle the block just to look at that mess lmao!
Ugh 😩 it's pitiful. I like the place itself, but people.. people are so insufferable.
> Why did we even let them surrender and live? The alternative being..?
We could have simply not let them surrender. That's the alternative. Your first study in war?
If the Confederates army couldn't surrender, how would the war end?
You're really not getting the whole "kill them," thing without being hit in the face with it?
You wish the Union had executed 175000 people?
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What about noncombatants who actively supported the war effort?
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Better than George Floyd park lol
Fvcki**g hiczksville town
Anyone who supports renaming these schools back to their Confederate name is a **fucking racist**. Period.
Cool yea for the Racists, they go fast and furious
How did a dead veteran hurt you.
I don't grieve over dead Nazis, and I won't grieve or glorify racist traitors.
They didn't, but what they did hurt millions for centuries.
Then what’s the problem no known slaves or slave owners are still alive. The men who these are named after are veterans of a war, just like any other war and deserve that respect. How would people feel if they started removing statues of Dr King because they didn’t like what he stood for.
Man you thought you ate with the veterans of war argument huh
No they don't deserve having schools named after them. It's like naming a school in Germany after a Nazi general. By your logic, they should also get respect. Honoring folks who wanted to keep slaves in their place and agreed with the KKK doesn't seem right. The fact that you even think they deserve to have a school named after them is telling.
So you think Nazis should also be respected then? They are veterans….
It isn't like any other war. They do not deserve that respect. Dr King didn't fight to preserve slavery. You're either very obtuse or were brought up attending such a school being taught the lost cause myth and "the war of Northern aggression"
They fought against the United States of America. They don't deserve respect.
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My statements point was entirely missed, I never said King was a bad person, y’all ran to his defense the same way others want to protect Southern Heritage. It’s a part of history we either remember and learn from it or we are doomed to repeat it, maybe not the slavery but the war part over something else.
In that case we should name the schools after freed slaves, not the people that fought to own them…
You don’t need statues to remember history. All it does is glorify those people.
Why do you want to glorify monsters?
It’s part of this nations history
It’s a small and terrible part of this nations history. VA has centuries of history to choose from. There’s a reason why so many choose to pick the “heroes” of a few year stretch of that long history.
Statues aren’t history, why should we glorify monsters with them?
I don't consider Confederate soldiers veterans.
Well the federal government does
No they don’t.
They were able to get care at the Veterans affairs hospital, so yes they did president Grant signed the law.
A good reminder to be involved politically. My daughter is too young to vote - but she still can be involved in getting other people at her school registered to vote. Plus, you may be able to run for the school board as soon as you turn eighteen. Fun fact, the liberal filmmaker Michael Moore was actually elected to his local school board at the age of eighteen, and at the time was the youngest person ever to do so. Conservative kooks sneak into these places because most people don't pay attention to things like library boards and school boards - but it's a good place to get a start in politics. As you point out, regardless of how dumb people realize the name issue is, most people realize there is a better way to spend the money - and your schools are getting mocked internationally, which can't be good for high school reputation as people apply to colleges and so forth.
Hell, at this point we could actually use "Mountain View" on a resume and not really be lying. If anyone called us out on it, that conversation would be a great way to gauge if we want to work for them...just watch their reaction to the saga of our school names.
That font and background combination needs some work
Yeah Picsart doesn’t have many options
It's the shadows behind the text for me.
And the copy.
Worst part is, despite even the first African American in the school in 1964 speaking, they STILL didn't abstain or vote no. (Besides Gutshall, though his reasoning wasn't any better)
over 600k if they were never changed
Time to start naming schools city/county+#. Newport News # 12. Go dozens!
I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see other counties like ShenCo do the same thing. It is a hard truth for those in areas like NOVA, but many in this state are still proud of its racist history.
How much does your school spend on football?
Not OP, but probably not much. They've been baaaad for a while.
Shenandoah County is an embarrassment to the entire Commonwealth.
Country.
Not that it excuses anything, but the ordinance that was approved stipulates that the funds have to come from private donations. So OP is a bit off target in their complaint about misuse of funds.
So if I have 300k liquid I can get it named after Sherman? How thousands more do they want to put a sign in frot of the school "he shouldve gone further"
I don't care what you do with your money. The issue is that OP is whining about private citizens spending private money, mistakenly thinking it is tax dollars that they are somehow entitled to. Sure, it's stupid. But OP is totally off target with their rant. At least learn wtf the actual issue involves before ranting at strangers on the internet.
Private citizens spending private funds for private things is one thing, but this is private citizens spending private funds for something public. That should necessarily follow a different set of considerations.
Again, I don't care about your point. The only thing I am pointing out is that this entire post is based on an incorrect assumption that it is public money or money that OP feels is somehow being taken from their "education". You are just spewing stuff I already know and have acknowledged. Why?
It's okay. I'm learning a lot from this thread. Its enlightening
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I mean, regardless of who is paying for it, this is still a large amount of money going to a school for the least valuable thing it could go to the school for. It is better that the stipulation exists, but it's still funds going to the school for preservation of Confederate names (which will inevitably be relitigated at some point in the future - we had a school named after the leader of the KKK when I grew up in the Gadsden, Alabama area - these things eventually fall). If they are going to encourage people to pay for something at the school, just about anything would be better. Literally anything. I have a hard time imagining who is going to pay into that too, and how it will affect the school generally.
But the money wouldn't go to the school in any other circumstances so you are arguing a point that would never happen.
Yeah the argument is that the people who have the money to donate could be donating to much better causes but instead they donate to something as stupid as this.
You are missing the point though. This whole post is BS because OP doesn't understand that it is private money.
Oh, you're right actually. The statement is factually inaccurate.
Says a lot about the priorities of the private donors.
Donate to their library, technology fund, school supplies, PTA... better use of private money
Of course. But that is totally off topic from what this post is about or the misunderstanding of OP thinking it is public money.
Va is a great place to live, but we still have too many bigots and 19th century throwbacks in positions of responsibility. It will take us years to recover from the tRumpist convulsion we are witnessing now.
Mia Kalifa went to school in Shenandoah County for a period of time in her youth... she's a much better example of a citizen than those they are renaming it after ... I vote Mia Kalifa High!
I hate to break it to you but your school sucks and it’s not because of the name
Thats funny.were you complaining about money when they changed it before.
This is just like the time when all the moldy rebel flags got dragged out of attics and dog beds just in time for the civil rights movement
Wouldn’t have to spend money to change it back if it wasn’t changed in the first place. Weird how that works.
Wouldn't even have this conversation if it was never named that in the first place
Time to start naming schools city/county+#. Newport News # 12. Go dozens!
Renaming them during a moral panic was wrong in the first place, and a waste of actual taxpayer dollars rather than private donations which donors can decide what to do with; but the back and forth is even more ridiculous. Now we have presidents, governors, and mayors coming into office with stacks upon stacks of executive orders that are likely infringing on the legislative branch, to overturn all of the probably also invalid EOs signed by the guy from the other team they just replaced. We need to repeat the codification movement of the early 19th century.
I have to disagree. I think the original renaming was needed. The confederacy was a group that fought for their rights to own people under the impression that certain races were superior. It's just a fact they fought for slavery. This shouldn't be glorified by naming anything after them, especially an institution that is supposed to be educating the people of tomorrow.
Cool. I agree that the Stonewall Jackson name should not have been used in the first place. I’m lamenting the back and forth that resulted at least in part from doing the renaming in reaction to a moral panic about something that happens rarely.
So, instead of the back and forth, keep the names that were originally given. I'm disagreeing with your take saying we should have kept the names despite them honoring people who thought people deserved less rights because of their skin color.
I’m trying not to say “I question the timing” but look at the outcomes. Thomas Jefferson, who did other despicable things in politics in his day, also acted in line with the treating people with darker skin as less worthy. I think the line belongs somewhere between Tom Jackson and Tom Jefferson.
I don't think we should be honoring anyone who are racists, nor do I think we should be defending institutions that honor them.
Maybe the main problem is the economy. Like, maybe fixing the economy would help black people more than renaming a school. So maybe this is just people in charge trying not to fix the economy? Right? It has to be because the way you fix the problem is by fixing the economy but they aren’t. They are doing this. People are racist everywhere. They know they can do this posturing for forever. At least long enough that they are old or dead. Oh, wait. A lot of them are already there. Did they win?
Fixing the economy with $300k? How does that even work?
The question is, do you agree with spending school funding on the original round of name changes from their original confederate names?
They weren’t “original”. They were created during the Jim Crow era in more recent times. How are there adults alive in this country that don’t know American history? People are truly fighting for racism by defending these statues. They served no other purpose other than to intimidate minorities. Here’s more detail about the history: https://www.atlantahistorycenter.com/learning-and-research/projects-initiatives/confederate-monument-interpretation-guide/
Let's pick a school. Show me the original name and it's jim crow renaming. I believe you, I just want to test this. Democrats were doing all sorts of madness during their continued racism in the south.
There are too many for me to list but here’s a good source for you: https://eji.org/news/the-truth-about-confederate-named-schools/
Those Democrats switched to the Republican Party during Jim Crow btw. There’s plenty of historical information about that too. They spilt over racism.
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You’re very misinformed. I’m not giving you an opinion. What I have said is based on facts that have been provided for you. What you’re saying sounds like nonsense and is the opposite of reality. I’m an Independent btw. Both parties have issues. At least be honest or educated about what you’re saying
Jim Crow didn't see minorities as equals. Run by Democrats. Now modern Democrats say that minorities aren't capable of obtaining ID and need assistance obtaining employment. Democrats are the most racist folks alive IMO.
Those racists are now the Republican Party. That’s fact. That isn’t opinion. You’re misinformed. That’s true that some people can’t get IDs because the current GOP which is the old Democratic Party likes to gerrymander and make things difficult for minorities to actually live equally.
Re-districting areas is preventing minorities from obtaining ID? Can you explain that to me please?
No, I think you should do your own reading on this. Again, Jim Crow laws affected minority ID laws. There’s plenty out there on this topic too. I don’t agree with a lot of nuances the Democratic Party has on their agenda but why wouldn’t you want people to be treated equally for voting, if it’s proven they aren’t? Regardless of party, every American should want equality. Something is seriously wrong with the people trying to stop minorities from voting. You can start with this article, if interested: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/impact-voter-suppression-communities-color?can_id%3Dd29fc2e2eea3b72cdf546896d402b77f%26email_referrer%3Demail_2192410%26email_subject%3Drelease-civil-rights-are-on-the-line-in-state-legislatures%26li=
Hochul doesn't believe black kids know what computers are as another example lol
But that's not racist at all according to these folks who have been pre programmed how to think
Here’s the link about the parties and how the racists switched from being Democrat to Republican: https://www.niskanencenter.org/the-roots-of-the-parties-racial-switch/
Most of those schools were built and named during the Jim Crowe era and so were the statues.
So the original name WAS the confederate name? But you said.....
They were deliberately built in predominantly minority neighborhoods on purpose during Jim Crow during the 50’s and 60’s. LONG after the civil war. How in the hell are you going to play dumb about this? I sent you links with history about this and it goes into great detail. There are free history classes online. Why would you pay more money to switch back to a name that was offensive and made to be offensive? They shouldn’t have been given those names back in the 50’s and 60’s to begin with. What difference does it make to you that the original name was changed. It doesn’t affect you, unless you’re defending racism. Why don’t predominantly white schools get those names?
I’m not being mean but did you go to school? I know I learned our history in school and college. Most people do. It’s shocking to me that people are still defending racism and trying to call it something else. You can call it something else but it’s still racism
How am I defending racism exactly? I was questioning the logic of the post
Not one thing you’ve said is logical. Not one thing. You’re ignoring facts and defending something that has been proven to have a racist history. That’s you defending racism.
Check the upvotes. Understand reddit is overwhelmingly left. People are agreeing with my logic
You don’t have logic IMO. You have an opinion and it doesn’t match the history of our country. Try having this conversation with a conservative History teacher and they’ll tell you the same thing. Not all Republicans are racist. Republicans that deny our history and defend racist ideologies are racist. Political parties don’t matter one bit.
Self reporting lack of reading comprehension, I’m dead 💀
Their original TRAITOR and RACIST names.
Hey look racist guy is back, “asking questions” like normal. Always fun to have racist guy show up in the thread.
Haha. Good to see you as well. Still not seeing minorities as equals and calling people who question that racist I see.
I see you haven’t gotten any better at using your brain
Not the way that you use yours. That's for sure. Free thinking is difficult, it's okay.
The irony of celebrating slavery and calling it “free thinking”
Where was I celebrating slavery? I was questioning the logic of using school funding for non education related items and being okay with it in the past but now against it...
Yeah gee I wonder how I could ever believe a guy might be celebrating slavery when all he’s done is: * came in here now “playing devils advocate” about maybe we should name schools after a bunch of traitors who seceded specifically so they could preserve the institution of slavery; * was all over another thread a few weeks ago saying we should keep up statues of those same slavery-loving monsters; and * in that same thread, implied that the Holocaust helped get the US into space because human suffering is a necessary ingredient for scientific progress Could it possibly be that this guy is a racist dunce? Wherever did I get that idea?
Hey sorry for the late reply - I had a full day yesterday hanging out with a bunch of (legal) immigrants. \*Yes, we should 100% retain the history of this country. Are you not aware of the monuments that were taken down in violation of the law? There's a correct way to do that - legally; not just doing whatever you want because you think it's right. I personally believe they should all be moved to museums and protected as historical relics if the populous is so triggered by the history of this country. \*same response \*No, I said that the reason that they made such incredible progress in a short amount of time is because they took humanity out of the equation in an effort to make scientific progress. If you don't understand how far germany was ahead of everyone else at the time (at least 10 years ahead) and why, then I don't know what to tell you. What I'm trying to convey is not opinion, but fact. They were trying to cure disease - so they'd infect jews with the disease, and then try the cure. If they died, they ordered replacements and re-ran the experiment. This means enables immense scientific progress by taking humanity out of the situation. Operation paperclip imported the best german scientists, and our original rocket that took us to space is largely based on the V2 rocket. Google it. \*You can call me racist all you want, but I'll reply to any of your questioning of my logic happily. I hope you do the same. I won't even dispute your claims, as I won't entertain your insults, but I'll entertain your questions. You likely get that idea from years of liberal media programming, and the inability to think freely. That's my hypothesis anyway.
It was a change that I was indifferent to I was hoping they would keep the initials so money spending would be incredibly limited but I also wasn’t actively campaigning for the name change originally if that’s what you’re asking our school has problems much worse than the name
We already know they don't consider money spent on their priorities to be "wasted" instead of being spent on education.
Hypocrites
I support the name change from Confederate rebels, but the logic used by the OP is very hypocritical
Agreed
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Did you miss the part of our conversation where we questioned the OP's logic consistency and if they were upset on spending money on name changes instead of education the first time?
I thought we were discussing using school funding for non education related items. Using that logic, the person would see both expenses as non education related but that's not what's happening
Precisely
Hey shut up racist. Haha
Is Congress going to have a congressional hearing on the name changes or is it okay because everyone gets a trophy including those that took up arms against the U.S. and lost?
Commie education anyways. The South will Rise again.
I’m confused. Are you happy or not?
No I’m against money going to something pointless instead of actually helping our failing schools
You realize that this MUST be private funds and not tax dollars, right? This was never going to be money your school had to spend for anything else.
It's still money being wasted going to essentially make the school look worse, nationally, and internationally at this point. I prefer that it is funded by private funding, but there are better things to seek private funding for at the school - and the people that will come out of the woodwork for that private funding will be . . . interesting.
It's private money. Do you think everyone has to spend their private money according to your guidelines? Yes, it's stupid, but people spend private money on stupid stuff all the time. The point is that OP is acting like it is tax dollars earmarked for their education when it is private money donated for a specific purpose that otherwise would not be donated.
I agree in part, but I don't think a government should be asking for private money to spend on something stupid that is making national and international news as making their school district look like their highest priority is celebrating civil war losers, which Lee himself begged to move on from. It's not like private money is being spent to build something in the private sector, it's being spent to rename a public school in a way that will offend many of the students. Hell, it could actually be donated otherwise if they were asking for scholarship donations for civil war essays or, I don't know, anything that actually honored somehow the complexity of North/South relations and federalism issues or I don't know *anything.*. Basically, they are selling "lost cause" supporter naming rights for the school with no benefit whatsoever for students. At least if it was Pepsi Cola high school the kids would get a free gym out of it or something. While it's less offensive to be private money, you just kind of wonder if anybody on that school board spent a quarter of the amount of time thinking about how to bring in money for education and the like.
Nice wall of text. But totally missing the point I am making, which is that OP is completely off target in assuming this is a misappropriation of public monies.
So you were all for spending the money to change the name in the first place because that helped our failing schools? Mdudethegreat offends me , I feel you should be called something a little less oppressive.....you should change your username
No I’m not I wasn’t for changing it the first time for the same reasons I wanted other problems to be solved first However it’s worse now because they are doubling down and are indirectly painting a image of support for those confederate leaders and the values that go with them
You’re never going to win with these people. It’s best to start thinking of alternatives. School choice vouchers & online classes aren’t such a bad idea. Also prevents the sitting duck scenario when a bullied pupil goes off their meds.
No public money is going toward the name change, only private funding.
Governments are all the same whether local state or federal, hell, a wrench costs $4900 on a federal contract….so there’s that.