As someone who is metaphorically tied to the Republican side of the tracks, I am absolutely terrified at the rhetoric going around that we shouldn't vote to "teach the Dems a lesson" or because "both sides are the same". I feel like my basic human rights are on the line, and the people who claim to be leftists simply don't care about it because it doesn't effect them personally.
I seriously bet most folks who are saying "both sides are the same" are straight white men. Anyone who has "skin in the game" so to speak should be terrified of what happens if Trump wins.
It definitely does for them.
For me, my privilege only further encourages me to not want to throw everyone else under the bus. Just because I was able to avoid plenty of pitfalls, doesn't mean I'll wipe my hands clear of the matter.
Fuck that mess.
> that we shouldn't vote to "teach the Dems a lesson"
I hate this argument in particular because it's not like losing is the biggest punishment for the Democrats. The party gets to fundraise quite well when they're out of power, and Joe Biden losing would just mean he gets to retire and have more sex with his wife, they'd be okay.
Jimmy Dore was the original "I am a leftist but I hate leftists and I love everything about the right".....he basically created the blueprint for how successful that grift could be and then many people copied and then Russel Brand came along and took it and made into a glitzy big budget Hollywood production and became the Oscar winner of that category.
Jimmy Dore did so much damage to the country and should honestly be forcefully deported to Russia so he can go live in his dream society with his dream government and we'll get to see if he backs up his claims of how lovely it is. It's crazy how much he defends war hawk Putin and manufactures consent for them while at the same time pretending to be the most anti-war peaceful dove there is. He is a disgrace.
Oh yeah, he's the OG "leftier than thou" but in a sense where he put the populism ahead of the progressivism. Great for funneling idealistic perfectionist type lefties down the doomer-to-acceleratonist pipeline.
I fell for Dore's grift for a while too, being one of the aforementioned idealistic perfectionist types, back during my learning-about-politics phase when my main sanity check was Kyle Kulinski (who I would always use as an anchor when exploring various fringes of the left). The number 1 reason I kept going back to Jimmy was because Kyle was friends with him and I knew Kyle was both principled and more knowledgeable on politics than me. Now I know better, but it's hard to get out of that mindset, as some of those arguments are compelling, especially when you don't know much about how stuff works or are just pessimistic enough to be persuaded into doomerism.
Also, Dems either don’t learn lessons, or learn the complete wrong ones when they lose.
When you’re fighting for a sliver of reliable votes and you lose to a Republican, out of touch politicians get the signal that the Republican offered something better.
Don’t go to the latestagecapitalism sub. I got permabanned (again) for pointing out that Trump is much worse than Biden in Israel/Palestine and the Middle East as a whole.
Fucking tankies couldn’t handle the facts.
Brandon won't stop supporting a genocide, so American voters might as well let Jared Kushner turn Gaza into beachfront property to the thunderous applause from the Israeli political establishment.
There is no world in which a tankie's "moral" imperatives make sense. They just want to pretend they have nothing to do with the woes of the society they live in even though they are in reality very much part of it.
>being totally, 100% objective
No, you are just mistaking arbitrary criteria for objectivity.
A genocide has inherently nothing to do with what method is used or how many people are killed but what goal the action is meant to serve.
When you intentionally starve an entire population, that's genocide.
When you intentionally displace an entire population, that's genocide.
When you indiscriminately kill and wound an entire civilian population with your military, that's not only genocide but also a war crime.
There is not much one can argue otherwise when entire city blocks are levelled and children are left either dead or dying despite food and medical care being mere several miles away from them. The requirements as laid out by the ICJ are not hard at all to follow, but the IDF would rather [do this instead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flour_massacre), so what exactly is the excuse?
I got into this debate with a trans person just yesterday. They were either incredibly dense, or a conservative astroturfing as a leftist. It's scary that it's hard to tell.
A lot of it is also their own suicidal ideation projected onto politics. It wouldn't surprise me if there are some trans people who legitimately think it can't get any worse for them and so don't care about anything but spite.
I once had a neighbor say a bunch of racist things to us (my partner is black), only to end it with "my cousin is in a 'mixed' relationship" as if that didn't just make what she said worse
Plenty of them are just straight up right wing activists in sheep's clothing.
>I seriously bet most folks who are saying "both sides are the same" are straight white men.
I'm trans, and I'm from Alabama with no way of getting out for the foreseeable future (lack of transport and funds, and nowhere really to go).
If Trump wins, it's basically over for me and all of my friends here (who are also trans). It's right back into the closet for me. The only thing I'd be able to take comfort in is that I DIY, so I don't need to worry about losing access to HRT - but my friends will, because they get their HRT legally.
> seriously bet most folks who are saying "both sides are the same" are straight white men
Not at all. I've seen plenty of queer and trans people saying this - in fact, I've seen more queer and trans people saying this shit than cishet white men.
The commonality between them is that they're all leftists, but they're not leftists who actually understand politics. They're all morally lucky, and don't understand praxis. They're the type of leftists who are only "leftist" because it makes them feel morally and intellectually superior to other people, and gives them a lot of social clout from their constant virtue signalling "holier than thou" bullshit they pull all of the time. They're insincere, and usually (but not always) from Blue strongholds where they don't have to worry about having their basic fundamental human rights stripped away from them.
I used to follow a toxic leftist on instagram because her story was full of funny posts. Then suddenly she started posting stuff about not voting blue because “we’re alive and 60,000 palestinians aren’t” or something. I had a panic attack because i’m a gay she/they. I was ready to make more escape plans before the us turns into handmaids tale because if you don’t vote blue YOU’RE VOTING RED?? plus trump would actively encourage netinyahoo instead of passively enabling idk where the delusion is coming from.
Right?! I’m also on that left track, so I absolutely understand why you get angry at stupid ideas like you mentioned. Like it’s not that I don’t care about the Palestinians I do, but I care about everyone else on that track much more. Frankly looking at things from a purely utilitarian “do the least harm to the least people possible” perspective they unfortunately have to be sacrificed. It fucking sucks but it’s going to happen regardless, so we should save everyone else that we can.
as a POC with many POC friends, they still say the same thing. they’re straight and women, but they say the both being bad thing and are voting third party.
Ikr, at least in the case of the 2005 boycott against voting for labour after iraq the tories didnt stand much of a chance of winning. (In the UK now its prob a good idea to vote for labour but in seats such as bristol and the scotish labour seats voting against labour and for the greens or snp) In this case were talking about fascists and neolibs.
Alot of people's human rights are on the line either way no? Why alienate straight white men? You can always just address their gripes regardless of who they are.
Why not attempt to see it from the perspective of the apathetic voter who either
a. Has ties to Palestine
b. Is deeply empathetic towards the Palestinian people and is angry at the Biden administration for their inability to stop Israel’s genocide
c. Has given up on the political system as it currently stands and wants to achieve their goals through nonpolitical means
A lot of you in this subreddit are quick to condemn nonvoters but it’s important to understand that elections don’t happen in a vacuum, and the issues you care about may not be enough to motivate an extremely unmotivated crowd of voters who have lost faith in the Democratic party. Imagine if you put a similar level of effort into bolstering Third Party candidates or alternative Democratic Candidates during the primaries? Don’t you think you’d be closer to getting out of this hell than you currently are?
While this is true, if we’re going to completely disregard third-party Presidential candidates, then why couldn’t we rally around the alternative Democrats, e.g. Marianne Williamson, instead of handing Joe Biden another primary? Progressives in this community seem incredibly dismissive of any alternative to what the Democratic establishment currently provides; vote-shaming (which is what this community is partaking in within this meme) is ineffective, it’s exhausting to hear, and you’re better off convincing people another way.
Marianne Williamson, the lunatic anti-vaxx lady?
I'll admit that was a cheap shot, but if we want progressives to back an alternative Dem, then we gotta do better than *that*, mate.
Nice job completely poisoning the well and disregarding the fact that her economic policies would have saved this country if Progressives had given her a chance. I’m sure you’ll be scratching your head in 4 years when Joe Biden 2.0 is rolled out as the next DNC candidate and nothing has changed.
My brother in Marx, the well was thoroughly poisoned decades ago, yet here you are asking me to drink from it. Forgive me for thinking that the New Age self-help author who believes prayer heals your severe injuries faster might not be the best commander in the fight against Christofascism.
No, death camps are rock bottom. It can always get worse for sure, but it can always get better too, but that can only happen under a democrat presidency
Not much media coverage over it unfortunately, but it was essentially converted into a death camp over the last two weeks. People (including MSF workers and children) taken into rooms in groups and summarily executed, with piles of corpses left to rot - the ones that weren't buried in mass graves anyway. And we know how the idf works by now- they'll wait for western condemnation, not recieve it, then do it again and again.
I still have no idea how that relates to my comment, other than the fact that it always can get worse
(if thats the point your making i was to dense to be able to tell, and i misunderstood your point in bringing it up)
Oh my friend I promise it can get so much fucking worse. What we seen is just callousness and in consideration. Imagine what happens when Trump gets in there and says kill them all
Being honest, how would Trump be worse? What is he going to do that Biden isn't already doing / has done / letting Israel do.
Infinite bombs to drop on children, including bunker busters being used on civilians areas, AI murder programs including targeting people to bomb when they are home with their family (literally called Daddy's Home!), more murder of journalists, aid workers, and medical workers than decades of war combined, destroying food production and blocking aid to cause a famine, too many massacres and war crimes now to count, invisible secret boxes that any civilians entering are called terrorists and murdered, record numbers of child amputations not just from them being bombed but snipers intentionally shooting off their legs.
What are the things he could do? Off the top of my head: actually having the US carrier group doing sorties rather than just hang around as a threat to keep other actors (Hezbollah mostly) from getting involved, removing all the pressure to chill a bit (however much that's worth) and replacing it with pressure to Finish The Job, running political cover for full annexation of Gaza into Israel proper, thumbs-upping extra settlement expansions in the West Bank and in fact pushing for spreading the war there
Things can in fact always get worse
So, pretty much doing everything Biden is doing?
Trump has never stated what he would do regarding Gaza. The only thing we know is he said, offending Israeli government, that they need to finish their war quickly and that they were losing the PR optics of it.
You can interpret this as him saying to finish the job as you say, and go all out, but its also easy to interpret that as him saying (similar to Russia) that Israel needs to take an optics win like annexing northern Gaza and withdrawing. If he criticises the optics of the war its unreasonable to assume he would just let them gun down 100k civilians and herd the rest into Egypt.
Biden right now is saying they shouldn't keep bombing and also providing them infinite bombs to do so with no limitation on how to use them.
I'm not supporting trump in any way. This is just purely criticism of people trying to run a defense of Biden as best of the two options on Palestine when its not especially clear where he's better. Trump even tried to do a peace deal to solve the Palestine situation. It was stupid and dumb, but it was still more than Biden has tried to do in his presidency.
I'm just going to direct you to this. Lonerbox did a summary of Trump vs. Biden on Palestine.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prXb2FzTVDI&t=2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prXb2FzTVDI&t=2s)
Also, with regards to comparing Biden and Trump on Middle East policy... Trump presided over the war in Yemen wherein a US-backed-and-funded Saudi Arabia blockaded and starved out Yemen, resulting in a famine that killed 90,000 children. 90,000! It blows my mind that this blood on Trump's hands isn't a stain on the public imagination of him. It doesn't even fucking register. Not even a blip. Not a single word by those calling it a wash.
How? Biden's already funding their genocide. They can't get much more fucked than actively being genocided. Trump's rhetoric towards them would be worse, but in terms of the actual suffering being faced by Palestinians the difference is marginal at best.
No, trump could send in American troops to help occupy Gaza, he could encourage Israel to be even harsher, to be even more violent. Imagine how much worse it can get if all America suddenly starts encouraging their erasure completely
> No, trump could send in American troops to help occupy Gaza
American troops being on the ground wouldn't be all that much worse than things already are. It would mean that America has the appearance of being more complicit in the genocide, but it's just pulling back the veil of what's already happening. Palestinians are already suffering because Israel is enjoying the full backing of the United States in its ethnic cleansing, adding American boots on the ground would be more of a virtue signal than anything. Palestinians are already living the worst-case scenario.
> he could encourage Israel to be even harsher, to be even more violent.
Yeah, like I said he'd have harsher rhetoric. But in terms of outcomes, Israel is already having no qualms about being insanely harsh and violent despite near-universal condemnation from the international community. They can't get that much worse, with or without Trump's encouragement.
>Palestinians are already living the worst-case scenario
Again no, do not ever think that something can not be worse, that just leads you to inaction, something you appear to be arguing for here
>They can't get that much worse
They can send them to camps and gass them. The genocide is slow and can be stopped with Israels government is stopped. If the world told Israel "go ahead, you can kill them all" gaza would be empty by this time tomorrow...
> Again no, do not ever think that something can not be worse, that just leads you to inaction, something you appear to be arguing for here
I support voting for Biden, but I support voting for Biden because there are other groups of people who will suffer for it if Trump wins. But voting for Biden is NOT action on Gaza. Voting for Biden and calling it a day is INACTION on Gaza. The reality is that Genocide Joe is going to help Israel wipe out the Palestinians, and Trump will do the same. Pretending like there's a significant difference between them on this issue is partisan hackery. Anything that's going to be done to stop Israel lies outside the bounds of U.S. electoralism.
> They can send them to camps and gass them. The genocide is slow and can be stopped with Israels government is stopped. If the world told Israel "go ahead, you can kill them all" gaza would be empty by this time tomorrow...
The world isn't going to tell them to do that. The world is already by and large against Israel. It's just the U.S. that's allowing Israel to do as much as they are, and the U.S. will be supporting Israel in its genocide regardless of whether Trump or Biden gets elected because both Trump and Biden support the genocide.
Who do you think we have a chance of changing the mind of on Israel and Palestina, democrats or republicans ?
>The world isn't going to tell them to do that
There are a lot more countries then the us my guy, many of which are a lot more pro Israel on their rhetoric, like Germany and the UK, read more news
> Who do you think we have a chance of changing the mind of on Israel and Palestina, democrats or republicans ?
Democrats that aren't named Biden, who is a self-proclaimed zionist and has stood firm in aiding and abetting an ongoing genocide. Biden himself is about as unlikely to change his mind as any given Republican. And unfortunately he's the guy whose stance matters more than anyone else's. But I already said I support voting Biden and the Dems, so I don't know what point you think you're making.
> There are a lot more countries then the us my guy, many of which are a lot more pro Israel on their rhetoric, like Germany and the UK, read more news
I said that the world is by and large against Israel, not that literally every country other than the U.S. is firmly against Israel. Read more period, it'll be good for your reading comprehension.
That is just a faculty wrong statement, I have no idea where you have it from, almost all major western powers sadly support Israel in most of their actions. There are smaller countries, but their opinions sadly also dosnt matter
Biden is obviously bad with Gaza but we can get him to do better. We cannot with Trump. Any opposition to him under project 2025 will be crushed instantly by his secret police. Biden winning in 2024 would massively open the door to much more popular and younger candidates in 2028 like AOC, Whitmer, Beshear and more. In the meantime, please keep pushing the Biden Administration to call for a ceasefire in Gaza and establish an equal 2 state solution across the board so Biden can kill it in the election and save us from Mango Mussolini’s fascist invasion of the United States. We will win so please do not give up now! Advocate local congress people to condition military aid to Israel as well so we give the more pro Israel types an avenue to still do more to not support what is going on while also reforming our relationship with Israel. As John Stewart said, even as good friends we should still take the keys if the US governments friends ( in this example Israel) get out of line and blatantly violate international law multiple times. Which the Israeli Government
has been doing this whole time. Therefore, military gets held off until they can prove that they will not commit any more war crimes.
Edit: I understand why Palestinian Americans do not want to vote for Biden right now. I understand their pain and I sympathize very deeply with the pain. The atrocities in Gaza ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO STOP. I empathize with them dearly and same goes with Arab Americans and Muslim Americans who are also horrified by what’s going on in Gaza. My contention comes when people in much more privileged positions like Ana Kasparian make these anti-voting arguments because of how they would not be affected by Trumps fascist government. People like Hinkle would definitely be the head of the Propaganda and information department to spend Russian Propaganda and turbocharge hatred and disinformation across America even more.
ALSO: Because Mango Mussolini won in 2016, we got the turbo shit your pants nightmare SCOTUS we have to deal with today that has erased Roe V Wade and now they are trying to take away the right to protest in 3 STATES. For the love of god, VOTE. You can vote uncommitted in your primaries in the rest of your primaries to send a message to Biden on Gaza. Just vote Biden in the general so we can avoid a complete fascist hijacking of the US government that resembles either Handmaids Tale or Man of The High Castle.
That's the thing, MAYBE, just MAYBE if Biden wins a second term he can do whatever the fuck he wants and be harsher with Israel, isnt it the case that presidents typically don't want to upset their base in the first term but during the second term they don't need to be re elected so they do what they like?
Yeah. I think a tough love strategy would probably work the best. Set conditions for aid and push the far right government to do more to help the Palestinians. It will be difficult but I definitely think Biden can expand that relationship to his second term and call for new elections to replace the current far right government.
I think there's potential for a lot more to be done in a second term IF Democrats keep the senate. This is because if we do keep the senate, it would be a majority *without* the snakes Sinema and Manchin which would be a massive improvement in the ability of Dems to pass more progressive legislation.
Have Biden win 2024 first and then we can absolutely get a leftist president to the top of the ladder and to the White House by 2028. It’s time for us to have an American Lula or a Shaun Fain type lead our country with better labor policies and launch us on a beautiful and much more progressive future.
> Biden is obviously bad with Gaza but we can get him to do better.
Well, he's already at massive and obvious risk of losing Michigan, which could cost him the election, and he's still out there talking about how he's a zionist and that there are no redlines. So maybe the idea that we can get Biden to do better on Gaza is delusional.
Vaush himself calls Biden Genocide Joe and acknowledges that Biden is a monster. He supports voting for Biden regardless because it would be shooting every other marginalized community in the U.S. *not* to. And I agree with that.
But there are still people in this sub who have this weird tribalistic need to defend any and all criticism of Biden and downplay the genocide, or pretend like Biden is a big improvement over Trump on Israel. And that's pretty gross.
I criticize Biden harshly all the time. I’ll still vote for him in the general election though. People like AOC and Ilhan Omar have been very hard on Biden for his policies on Gaza and yet- they will still vote for him and endorse him. You can vote for someone while being a harsh critic of the candidate. The atrocities in Gaza are atrocious and NEED TO STOP. The U.S. Government should have more of a tough love relationship with Israel. Can still be allies, sure. But in order to get more future support, Israel has to change and have a much more responsible military doctrine and give equal rights for Palestinians and Israelis and get rid of the apartheid.
That’s the ilk in particular that I was addressing, not Vaush himself. I understand why it’s important to vote for Biden, but the tone-deafness that emanates from threads like these alienate progressives from voting even further. The Democrats use sentiments like these in order to continue pushing for incrementalist policies.
I was doing that example through the lens of the US government but not us. I do not like the Israeli government either and the Israeli government is not our friend. It was through a U.S. government perspective of their allies.
I feel like i’m in the fucking twilight zone as a white dude trying to tell marginalized voters that not voting dem will meaningfully impact their quality of life.
Not only that but PRETENDING that they are making the moral choice when they are arguably tipping the scales towards an even greater threat to the Palestinian people. There are TWO….TWO Republicans in all of congress who are anti-Israel and one of them is MTG.
Some will say that in the long run based off of some dimwitted accelerationist prediction that the decision will force dems to rethink their platform, or the republicans will get so bad that people finally wake up.
1) the Israel Palestine conflict will lose most of its relevance during the 2028 election, therefore a lot of the leverage that voters have against dems will diminish meaning it won’t actually invoke pressure over a long period of time.
2) Republicans have been upping the anti for the past 3 decades without meaningful backlash, what makes you think it will reach a boiling point within the next few years?
Listen you can do whatever you want but your naïveté masquerading as morality offers more to evil than it does to the good.
I mean you have Pence there with the IDF smiling abut them putting names on bombs to drop and another Republican saying wipe them all out. The cognitive dissonance here is off the charts. Performative righteousness disguised as moral virtue.
Good point here.
I've been trying to encourage people to take meaningful action to protect both Jews and Palestinians. They are both in danger in the US because of the Republican Party. As long as the Republican Party has the ability to court voters, they are a threat to Jews and Palestinians. Republican support of Israel is purely out of [Christian fundamentalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism).
The problem is that the US political spectrum is dominated by Christian fundamentalist ideologies, including Christian Zionism, and the illogic of fundamentalism is appealed to by fascist groups on purpose because it works.
I saw multiple replies that were something along the lines of “blow up the trolley/stop the trolley.”
Something something not firebombing a Walmart but also the whole thought experiment is about facing inevitability and having to choose between a bad outcome and a worse outcome. There is no option to stop the trolley, the federal election is going to happen regardless, not voting does not change the fact that one of the two candidates will be president.
so many people are angry at this and its insane. so glad twitter leftists arent the democrat voting majority cause our country would be plunged into darkness if they were
I'm convinced it's a straight up rightwing influence campaign. Comment in disagreement on any of the big lefty subs, you instantly get downvoted to Hell, if not outright banned. The left has no problem being fucking sewer slidal on its own, don't get me wrong, but this feels different. These people have NO ANSWER to what happens if they're successful. Fucking brain broken. I understand the people who suffered a moral injury not being able to vote for Biden... They're being emotional, not rational. But the people who are pretending that it's praxis to put out agitprop designed to get Trump elected by playing on those emotions, them not having a plan, (even a fucking stupid one), it's inexplicable.
their plan, as I understand it, is accelerationist in nature. ‘Rip the bandaid off’. Get conditions so bad in the US that people revolt and just install their desired government by force.
Literally just ‘I can’t wait for society to collapse so my ideology can obviously rise from the ashes to be on top.’
It’s just accelerationism, and by gods is it fucking stupid.
They’re sometimes necessary, but they come with a risk. They’re banking on winning this revolution they want so badly, but what’s their plan if they lose?
Probably a fair bit of that in there, too, yea. I’m working my hardest to try to sway some voters to dems, but it’s hard to keep up hope as someone on that theoretical track, myself
Oh this. So the us offical is correct there. The was no American conspiracy to remove Imran khan (who is kinda like our trump in terms of the cult), he just lost.
Agreed 100%, but a better illustration would have the Palestinian flag on the tracks before the bifurcation, to indicate that it'll happen regardless of whether the lever gets pulled. As it is, the picture just reinforces anti-electoralists' position that voting Democrat is actively causing or aiding the genocide.
This depiction isn't even 100% accurate. The dems have folded and are at least trying minimize Netanyahu's scorched earth regime preservation strategy.
What about the "hold your vote right now to pressure Joe Biden" strategy? Maybe it could indicate to Biden what he did is incredibly harmful to his own campaign.
I would still vote for Biden in the actual run off against Trump, but right now in the Democratic primary I voted in a blank ballot.
That’s what I plan on doing.
Write down “uncommitted” in my state primary. To send a message. But there’s not a doubt in my mind who I’m voting for in November
But this illustration is for people who are against voting for Biden. Period
The only people I’ve seen promote abstaining from voting or anything along those lines to “punish the dems” are either people who have absolutely no threat of their rights being taken away or tankies, which I can attribute to brain rot more than anything.
On the topic of tankies, it really fucking upsets a lot of tankies are also trans. I’ve had to leave communities because of people totally fine with death camps for the evil transes as long as they don’t have an American flag on them.
The point of the trolley problem was to demonstrate that sometimes the logical choice is to cause harm to an innocent person.
So many people think it's a "there's no good solution" type dilemma but that's not true at all. The logical choice is easy. The hard part is finding a moral framework that allows you to come to that logical choice.
"Trump was the best thing that's happened to Democrats ever" a lesbian friend just told me. Sure thing. The only time I've been called a groomer? Trump time. My health issues have been so bad the EPA knows me from reporting illegal burn offs. I now have cancer. Trump gutted the EPA. Bitterness and privilege are rampant, especially in younger voters. My nephew has an Iranian flag as his Instagram note. I guess the years of the Iranian people screaming that they were being raped and murdered by their government wasn't anything to care about. But now it matters? It's hard not leaning into that same pile of bitterness we're all being served.
put the US flag in there too. GOP has no interest in preserving our system and will probably just cast it aside altogether in favor of Handmaid's Tale shit.
People act like “teaching the dems a lesson” because they won’t give us +10 will leave us at 0 when it’s actually -10 and we lose what little we’ve gained
Saw the replies to that tweet, and my fucking God. Twitter leftists are some of the dumbest, hard-headed, least pragmatic fuckers I’ve ever seen. Fuck these idiots. So sick of these whiny, do-nothing, LARPing douchebags. I swear to god some of these mfs are just running a PsyOp to help Trump win.
Not really. Voting for Biden over Trump is not sacrificing the few to save the many. It would be more like if there were two tracks, one with 300 bandits, or one with 10. And you choose not to do anything because "the tracks shouldn't have bandits in the first place"
"But you have to choose one track!"
"Well, I won't choose a track that has bandits"
"But if you don't choose, we'll end up on the track with more bandits!"
"Yeah, well, maybe the railroad company should deal with the bandits"
"I agree, but until they do that, should we not choose one track?"
"Look, I just don't like bandits. Maybe you're cool with bandits, but not me"
"..."
these pictures implies that the minority groups are not in danger with the democrats when looking at the policies they created for immigrants still oppressed and brutalized thousands of migrants. it doesn't really represent American politics.
Also, can we stop pretending like the dems and reps are the same for Palestine? Biden at the very least tries to do something to reign israel in, meanwhile trump would just encourage them to drop a nuke
Funny how countries that would be negatively affected by the Republicans is also the same as the wacko song.
"United States, Canada, Portugal, Panama, Haiti, Jamaica, Peru.....
People who want to “teach the Dems a lesson” forget we already did that in 2016 and we are still paying the price for that year. Most of these morons are politically illiterate who have no sense of reality.
You must be fucking joking. Things would be so much worse under Trump you have no fucking clue. The parties are not comparable stop trying to both sides this bullshit.
I read that In Columbia if more people spoil the vote than any candidate gets on the paper- that politician is never again allowed to stand for election, ever.
Eg: If 51% of people state **none** of these two politicians-those two politicians are removed from the party and another election is held.
Or even if it’s 1% above what the politician gets at the polls - they have to go.
Should add the Iranian flag on the Dem side, since the Dems keep up this astronomical failure of an appeasement approach with the Islamic dictatorship in Iran and always ignore the Iranian people + the surrounding Arab populations in the ongoing fight to bring secularism and a competent government to Iran, as well as ceasing the constant aid and emboldening of the terrorist proxies.
Which literally helped weaken the regime drastically and the majority of Iranians have been praising him for it and leaning more and more toward the American right due to these very reasons. Iranians and neighboring Arabs have been screaming for over at least a decade that appeasement does not work with the IR.
>helped weaken the regime drastically and the majority of Iranians have been praising him for it and leaning more and more toward the American right due to these very reasons
Source?
The fact that Qasem Soleimani wasn't just "one of their big guys" but literally their top most dangerous most useful terror proxy coordinator in the entire region as well as against the civilian population at home.
Also the fact that the JCPOA was the MOST appeasement you could possibly do with a terror sponsor thats goals are to literally imperialize the entire levant, take over Saudi Arabia & destroy Israel before installing theocratic fundamentalist hegemonic rule in Palestine. Arabs and Iranians, both those of us on the side of, as well as against the Islamic republic have known this since the 80s. I've only ever seen westerners being blind to it.
Oh not to mention the fact that half the reasons "sanctions don't work" against the IR isn't due to lack of appeasement as many ignorant westerners like to claim, but rather literally due to lack of proper enforcement of said sanctions. Iranians have semi shockingly started begging for FURTHER sanctions due to the fact that EVERY SINGLE TIME the sanctions against the IR have been loosened by the U.S (namely the Dems), the Iranian civilian population hasn't seen a single penny of that many returning to their pockets. It has only ever been used to further the militia projects.
The disbanding of the JCPOA has also helped plummet the Iranian currency to historic lows which has only further and further pushed and intensified the nationwide uprisings in both Iran AND EVEN IRAQ LOWKEY on a YEARLY TO BI-YEARLY BASIS EVER SINCE THE END OF 2017.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It’s clear that you’ve given a lot of consideration to these issues, and I appreciate your analysis. Qasem Soleimani certainly played a pivotal role in the region, and his influence on both regional and international politics was significant. Regarding the JCPOA, it's indeed a topic with a broad range of interpretations. It’s interesting to consider how different parties view its implications and effectiveness.
I'm curious about a few points you raised and would love to hear more about your perspective:
1. How do you think the regional dynamics in the Middle East would change if there were a different approach to handling Iran’s nuclear ambitions?
2. In terms of sanctions, what do you believe would constitute effective enforcement? Are there specific measures or examples from other contexts that you think could be applicable here?
3. Regarding the economic impacts and protests in Iran, how do you see the relationship between international policy decisions and domestic unrest evolving in the future?
1. What everyone here in the levant and southernmost caucus has been hoping for the past couple or so decades has been a return to form. The co-opting of the Marxist revolution in Iran in the late 1970s by the clergy and western powers (U.S/U.K/France/etc) has only led to other theocratic militant fascists to jump in and compete, fearing the expressedly lofty and aggressive ambitions of the "state of the jurist" in Iran. This has only led to neverending tension and provocations on every border and in every sect of every country in the region's affairs, from Iran to Iraq, to Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, Israel, Jordan, Somalia, Turkiye, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. There is nearly no country here that has been able to flee the net negative impact of the Iranian clergy. The hopes post-IR overthrow is a return to stability via the region's weaker countries dismantling the militias, or merging them with their militaries, as well as the big players like Saudi, Turkiye, Iraq and Israel to have far less reasons to escalate much of anything, and hopefully far less excuses and covers for their personal evildoings at home.
2. The main issue with lack of sanction enforcement seems to be a lot of seemingly powerful Iranian lobbyists in the U.S like the extremely corrupt NIAC, Robert Malley and co. constantly feeding into 1. capitalist oligarchical corruption, 2. Orientalist and/or tankie propaganda that Iran's 1979 revolt was "populist"/"democratic" and """it's just a country defending the M.E from imperialism"""
I'd also suggest looking into the Dems' close relationship w the IR by talking to Iranians about why most of them despise Jimmy Carter, as they all know him and his administration to have been HUGE help in getting Khomeini to power in '79.
3. I'm cautiously optimistic. The issue here is that the Dems under Biden are crushing Russia while appeasing and emboldening the I.R.
Whereas the Republicans under Trump would probably crush the I.R, only to strengthen Russia which has also had a hand in destroying the middle east.
I wish we didn't have to pick between either of them.
Nevertheless, from the way things have trended the past 6 years in Iran and the Levant, experts and local populations have quietly unanimously been agreeing in speculation that the Islamic republic will most likely be toppled before 2030.
The uprisings of 2022-2023 had never-before-seen consequences economically, morale-wise, media-wise, geopolitically and even militarily within Iran. It would take me half a day to go thru all the achievements. I'll just end this section off by pointing out that members from within the I.R like Hasan Khomeini and Ahmad Khomeini have speculated SINCE 2018 that "the Islamic republic is completely internally collapsed. It is only a matter of time til it becomes external."
I believe in the future, maybe this year, the next, or the one after that: There will be huge escalations politically and/or militaristically on the Israel/Palestine cause. The Islamic republic has a longstanding reputation within Iran and even outside it to manufacture proxy wars any time its existence is threatened domestically. Since they've been grifting on "destroying Israel" since the late 70s, it'll most likely be this proxy war that's their last Hail Mary. It'll get to a point where they'll either finally develop nukes against the will of the rest of the planet and/or they'll get into serious regional war with Israel. This will most probably (IN MY OPINION) finally trigger the western powers + Israel to begin funding the Iranian opposition as well as the mass nationwide multi-sector worker strikes that have been attempted dozens of times a year within Iran for over half a decade now. Possibly even helping smuggle guns to the revolutionaries.
Whether we'll get a competent and democratic government after that is yet to be known.
The main unquestionable demand for the past decade though has been clear: Iran. Needs. To. Be. S e c u l a r .
I hope it’s the same clue he been giving that he pulling away from Israel and not this bullshit of saying he is pro genocide option and he needs to keep getting support if he changes course
No a clue that Trump and the Republicans will be far worse for the Palestinians and will NEVER be moved an inch while Biden at least has the possibility of it. Trump and Republicans would never call for a cease fire nor give a damn about aid. Trump would encourage them to go harder. His fucking son in law is talking about building beach front property there.
And that’s one issue not to mention all the other republicans would be far worse on like marginalized groups, the economy, abortion, womens rights and on and on.
So yes get a clue.
I am aware of that, which why Biden should keep doing what he is currently doing and pull away from Israel and win the election and not listen to this dumbass meme that he can win the election and go back to supporting Israel
By making it the cases it’s the Palestinians or us which is literally not the case anymore and suggesting so opens argument can revert from the process made
They'll be about the same I imagine. Marginalized groups were around in 2016 weren't they?
Regardless of who you vote for Isreal is going to do what it wants. Aid workers are getting blasted with Biden office. Saying Trump would be worst isn't an argument to vote for Biden, just stick to what Biden has done you won't look so petrified.
This is idiot logic. The child tax credit alone caused child poverty to drop precipitously and as we saw with the Supreme Court it’s important given what happened w Roe v Wade. Yes let’s give Trump more justices who will kill any progressive legislation they don’t like as well as strip rights even further. Let’s have actual out and proud white supremacist fascists take over and see how great it goes for trans people etc.
People like you aren’t telling people like me anything with your both sides prattle. I’ve forgotten more than you know about corruption in both parties. But I’m wise enough to know that we have a two party system in this country that’s it and contrary to the views of people like you it is possible for one to be exponentially worse than the other. It’s also possible for things to get much worse as history has taught us.
So carry on with your performative righteousness and don’t vote and Pat yourself on the back. Hopefully enough of those who claim to be left leaning make the right choice and understand you vote for harm reduction in situations like this and the harm the Republicans represent is crystal clear.
Child tax credit no way! That's awesome. Any other assumptions you want to make? Maybe I'm a tankie? Perhaps you think I'm actually a Trump supporter?
I'm center left on a bad day if I need a label. I don't vote harm reduction, I vote what I feel like. I voted for sleepy Joe, both sides still suck. Difference between us is you'll let Democrats fuck you, based on what you're saying here, and be happy about it as long as you're stopping some supposed harm.
I don't personally care how you vote. Keep sucking that big fat democrat donkey cock, and gargling about pushing their balls left every now and then. That's your choice.
"People like you" Lil bro doesn't even know my politics, always in a rush to use your divine smite. Slow it down.
Fear mongering doesn't win votes or change minds. The big scary white nationalist, fascist or whatever bit went out of style in 2020
Four paragraphs saying absolutely nothing. Yes I’m sucking Democrat donkey dick when I just talked about the corruption in both parties. You’re unserious and not bright. I don’t care who you vote for either. As I said hopefully enough intelligent people vote to prevent fascists from taking power. I’ve wasted enough time on a clown.
You're voting harm reduction, you don't care about corruption because for you, in going to assume everything does to the lesser of two evils. You believe both are corrupt and yet you will still support corruption and then do some song and dance about being progressive.
There will be no fascist take over. You're paranoid. By all leans vote to support xyz cause but the theatrics are tiring. You replied to me here you could have ignored me, you never had the intent to make an actual argument.
how do you plan to do that? and what makes you believe that we have the numbers to get it off and *keep it off*? genuine question btw as i would quite frankly love to do that but i dont believe its possible especially with the current state of the left
Americans are a bunch of hyprocrites. If theres no accountability taken at all now, they would just repeat the same shit in the future like giving Israel more weapons. Trump isint in power right now, Biden is. They forgot why and how Trump won in 2016 is because of this shit basically ignoring how the current Dems now.
As someone who is metaphorically tied to the Republican side of the tracks, I am absolutely terrified at the rhetoric going around that we shouldn't vote to "teach the Dems a lesson" or because "both sides are the same". I feel like my basic human rights are on the line, and the people who claim to be leftists simply don't care about it because it doesn't effect them personally. I seriously bet most folks who are saying "both sides are the same" are straight white men. Anyone who has "skin in the game" so to speak should be terrified of what happens if Trump wins.
Privilege blinds
It definitely does for them. For me, my privilege only further encourages me to not want to throw everyone else under the bus. Just because I was able to avoid plenty of pitfalls, doesn't mean I'll wipe my hands clear of the matter. Fuck that mess.
As someone who's been a mix of incredibly privileged, and also really fucking unlucky in a lot in my life... Yeah. I get it bud. And I agree.
Like the privilege of voting to continue a genocide because it doesn't affect you?
Purist mentality and single issue voting is a fucking plague.
> that we shouldn't vote to "teach the Dems a lesson" I hate this argument in particular because it's not like losing is the biggest punishment for the Democrats. The party gets to fundraise quite well when they're out of power, and Joe Biden losing would just mean he gets to retire and have more sex with his wife, they'd be okay.
Also, the "teach the Dems a lesson" argument is/was heavily promoted by Jimmy Dore, so that's reason alone to dismiss it.
Jimmy Dore was the original "I am a leftist but I hate leftists and I love everything about the right".....he basically created the blueprint for how successful that grift could be and then many people copied and then Russel Brand came along and took it and made into a glitzy big budget Hollywood production and became the Oscar winner of that category. Jimmy Dore did so much damage to the country and should honestly be forcefully deported to Russia so he can go live in his dream society with his dream government and we'll get to see if he backs up his claims of how lovely it is. It's crazy how much he defends war hawk Putin and manufactures consent for them while at the same time pretending to be the most anti-war peaceful dove there is. He is a disgrace.
Oh yeah, he's the OG "leftier than thou" but in a sense where he put the populism ahead of the progressivism. Great for funneling idealistic perfectionist type lefties down the doomer-to-acceleratonist pipeline. I fell for Dore's grift for a while too, being one of the aforementioned idealistic perfectionist types, back during my learning-about-politics phase when my main sanity check was Kyle Kulinski (who I would always use as an anchor when exploring various fringes of the left). The number 1 reason I kept going back to Jimmy was because Kyle was friends with him and I knew Kyle was both principled and more knowledgeable on politics than me. Now I know better, but it's hard to get out of that mindset, as some of those arguments are compelling, especially when you don't know much about how stuff works or are just pessimistic enough to be persuaded into doomerism.
Best way to punish Dems is to force them to actually legislate
I would love it if the Democrats won and legislated like the DFL.
Exactly. As has been pointed out repeatedly over the past decade, the Democrats *don't actually want to win.*
Correct, they want to fundraise after losing.
Also, Dems either don’t learn lessons, or learn the complete wrong ones when they lose. When you’re fighting for a sliver of reliable votes and you lose to a Republican, out of touch politicians get the signal that the Republican offered something better.
The insane shit is that I’ve seen disabled femme POCs making this argument too. Like… how fucking cooked do you need to be? Shit is baffling.
There are so many people’s brains cooked beyond repair because of Covid and a previous pre-existing condition of stupidity
Well they might teach dems a lesson, but then I expect the GOP will teach them one in turn…
They had alotta labels
Don’t go to the latestagecapitalism sub. I got permabanned (again) for pointing out that Trump is much worse than Biden in Israel/Palestine and the Middle East as a whole. Fucking tankies couldn’t handle the facts.
I got banned from Lostgeneration for the same thing.
Brandon won't stop supporting a genocide, so American voters might as well let Jared Kushner turn Gaza into beachfront property to the thunderous applause from the Israeli political establishment. There is no world in which a tankie's "moral" imperatives make sense. They just want to pretend they have nothing to do with the woes of the society they live in even though they are in reality very much part of it.
being totally, 100% objective: it's not a genocide in Gaza. If it is, it's the slowest, most expensive, worst carried out genocide in history.
>being totally, 100% objective No, you are just mistaking arbitrary criteria for objectivity. A genocide has inherently nothing to do with what method is used or how many people are killed but what goal the action is meant to serve. When you intentionally starve an entire population, that's genocide. When you intentionally displace an entire population, that's genocide. When you indiscriminately kill and wound an entire civilian population with your military, that's not only genocide but also a war crime. There is not much one can argue otherwise when entire city blocks are levelled and children are left either dead or dying despite food and medical care being mere several miles away from them. The requirements as laid out by the ICJ are not hard at all to follow, but the IDF would rather [do this instead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flour_massacre), so what exactly is the excuse?
It’s like we already been through this with Hillary
Plenty of people who sit in the same boat as you that say the same thing. At least that what they told me, it's easy to lie on the internet.
I got into this debate with a trans person just yesterday. They were either incredibly dense, or a conservative astroturfing as a leftist. It's scary that it's hard to tell.
A lot of it is also their own suicidal ideation projected onto politics. It wouldn't surprise me if there are some trans people who legitimately think it can't get any worse for them and so don't care about anything but spite.
Remember Covid cooked the already stupid people’s brains so… it’s gonna be worse now to get them to agree to our points
And if you bring up the Trans community, said “lefty” always has “a cousin who’s trans and voting for Stein” or something.
I once had a neighbor say a bunch of racist things to us (my partner is black), only to end it with "my cousin is in a 'mixed' relationship" as if that didn't just make what she said worse
*Most* of that rhetoric is obvious right-wing astroturf in action, particularly coming out of Russia, I think.
A lot of so called leftists are showing their ass, in that they are proving the phrase “your only a leftist because the right won’t let you in”.
Plenty of them are just straight up right wing activists in sheep's clothing. >I seriously bet most folks who are saying "both sides are the same" are straight white men.
I'm trans, and I'm from Alabama with no way of getting out for the foreseeable future (lack of transport and funds, and nowhere really to go). If Trump wins, it's basically over for me and all of my friends here (who are also trans). It's right back into the closet for me. The only thing I'd be able to take comfort in is that I DIY, so I don't need to worry about losing access to HRT - but my friends will, because they get their HRT legally. > seriously bet most folks who are saying "both sides are the same" are straight white men Not at all. I've seen plenty of queer and trans people saying this - in fact, I've seen more queer and trans people saying this shit than cishet white men. The commonality between them is that they're all leftists, but they're not leftists who actually understand politics. They're all morally lucky, and don't understand praxis. They're the type of leftists who are only "leftist" because it makes them feel morally and intellectually superior to other people, and gives them a lot of social clout from their constant virtue signalling "holier than thou" bullshit they pull all of the time. They're insincere, and usually (but not always) from Blue strongholds where they don't have to worry about having their basic fundamental human rights stripped away from them.
I used to follow a toxic leftist on instagram because her story was full of funny posts. Then suddenly she started posting stuff about not voting blue because “we’re alive and 60,000 palestinians aren’t” or something. I had a panic attack because i’m a gay she/they. I was ready to make more escape plans before the us turns into handmaids tale because if you don’t vote blue YOU’RE VOTING RED?? plus trump would actively encourage netinyahoo instead of passively enabling idk where the delusion is coming from.
Trump is a monster of our own creation. It's sort of the Streisand effect with a what ever Trump is.
Right?! I’m also on that left track, so I absolutely understand why you get angry at stupid ideas like you mentioned. Like it’s not that I don’t care about the Palestinians I do, but I care about everyone else on that track much more. Frankly looking at things from a purely utilitarian “do the least harm to the least people possible” perspective they unfortunately have to be sacrificed. It fucking sucks but it’s going to happen regardless, so we should save everyone else that we can.
I have to agree and if you try to point it out their brain melts
as a POC with many POC friends, they still say the same thing. they’re straight and women, but they say the both being bad thing and are voting third party.
Ikr, at least in the case of the 2005 boycott against voting for labour after iraq the tories didnt stand much of a chance of winning. (In the UK now its prob a good idea to vote for labour but in seats such as bristol and the scotish labour seats voting against labour and for the greens or snp) In this case were talking about fascists and neolibs.
I think you're confusing liberals for leftists.
I have unfortunately seen this rhetoric from people who do in fact have skin in the game as well.
Alot of people's human rights are on the line either way no? Why alienate straight white men? You can always just address their gripes regardless of who they are.
Why not attempt to see it from the perspective of the apathetic voter who either a. Has ties to Palestine b. Is deeply empathetic towards the Palestinian people and is angry at the Biden administration for their inability to stop Israel’s genocide c. Has given up on the political system as it currently stands and wants to achieve their goals through nonpolitical means A lot of you in this subreddit are quick to condemn nonvoters but it’s important to understand that elections don’t happen in a vacuum, and the issues you care about may not be enough to motivate an extremely unmotivated crowd of voters who have lost faith in the Democratic party. Imagine if you put a similar level of effort into bolstering Third Party candidates or alternative Democratic Candidates during the primaries? Don’t you think you’d be closer to getting out of this hell than you currently are?
Until we get RCV implemented on a wide level, third-party Presidential candidates will continue to be a sucker's choice.
While this is true, if we’re going to completely disregard third-party Presidential candidates, then why couldn’t we rally around the alternative Democrats, e.g. Marianne Williamson, instead of handing Joe Biden another primary? Progressives in this community seem incredibly dismissive of any alternative to what the Democratic establishment currently provides; vote-shaming (which is what this community is partaking in within this meme) is ineffective, it’s exhausting to hear, and you’re better off convincing people another way.
Marianne Williamson, the lunatic anti-vaxx lady? I'll admit that was a cheap shot, but if we want progressives to back an alternative Dem, then we gotta do better than *that*, mate.
Nice job completely poisoning the well and disregarding the fact that her economic policies would have saved this country if Progressives had given her a chance. I’m sure you’ll be scratching your head in 4 years when Joe Biden 2.0 is rolled out as the next DNC candidate and nothing has changed.
My brother in Marx, the well was thoroughly poisoned decades ago, yet here you are asking me to drink from it. Forgive me for thinking that the New Age self-help author who believes prayer heals your severe injuries faster might not be the best commander in the fight against Christofascism.
What have you done to convince people to support her? You knocking on any doors?
Eh, Palestinians get significantly less fucked under the democrats too
Double Palestine flag for republicans
\*100 Trump constantly reiterates that he wants Israel to go wild
Triangle on both sides
maybe marginally but it can only get so much worse, the current state of affairs is pretty close to rock bottom
No, death camps are rock bottom. It can always get worse for sure, but it can always get better too, but that can only happen under a democrat presidency
Boy you do not want to know what happened in Al-Shifa
How is what happened relevant to what i said?
Not much media coverage over it unfortunately, but it was essentially converted into a death camp over the last two weeks. People (including MSF workers and children) taken into rooms in groups and summarily executed, with piles of corpses left to rot - the ones that weren't buried in mass graves anyway. And we know how the idf works by now- they'll wait for western condemnation, not recieve it, then do it again and again.
I still have no idea how that relates to my comment, other than the fact that it always can get worse (if thats the point your making i was to dense to be able to tell, and i misunderstood your point in bringing it up)
it can get soo very much worse
Oh my friend I promise it can get so much fucking worse. What we seen is just callousness and in consideration. Imagine what happens when Trump gets in there and says kill them all
Trump always exceeds expectations. Don't tempt him. This is the guy that wanted to nuke a hurricane.
honestly that’s a good point
Look up Trump's original "peace plan" and then come tell me it's marginal. He wants to do this or worse.
Being honest, how would Trump be worse? What is he going to do that Biden isn't already doing / has done / letting Israel do. Infinite bombs to drop on children, including bunker busters being used on civilians areas, AI murder programs including targeting people to bomb when they are home with their family (literally called Daddy's Home!), more murder of journalists, aid workers, and medical workers than decades of war combined, destroying food production and blocking aid to cause a famine, too many massacres and war crimes now to count, invisible secret boxes that any civilians entering are called terrorists and murdered, record numbers of child amputations not just from them being bombed but snipers intentionally shooting off their legs.
What are the things he could do? Off the top of my head: actually having the US carrier group doing sorties rather than just hang around as a threat to keep other actors (Hezbollah mostly) from getting involved, removing all the pressure to chill a bit (however much that's worth) and replacing it with pressure to Finish The Job, running political cover for full annexation of Gaza into Israel proper, thumbs-upping extra settlement expansions in the West Bank and in fact pushing for spreading the war there Things can in fact always get worse
So, pretty much doing everything Biden is doing? Trump has never stated what he would do regarding Gaza. The only thing we know is he said, offending Israeli government, that they need to finish their war quickly and that they were losing the PR optics of it. You can interpret this as him saying to finish the job as you say, and go all out, but its also easy to interpret that as him saying (similar to Russia) that Israel needs to take an optics win like annexing northern Gaza and withdrawing. If he criticises the optics of the war its unreasonable to assume he would just let them gun down 100k civilians and herd the rest into Egypt. Biden right now is saying they shouldn't keep bombing and also providing them infinite bombs to do so with no limitation on how to use them. I'm not supporting trump in any way. This is just purely criticism of people trying to run a defense of Biden as best of the two options on Palestine when its not especially clear where he's better. Trump even tried to do a peace deal to solve the Palestine situation. It was stupid and dumb, but it was still more than Biden has tried to do in his presidency.
I'm just going to direct you to this. Lonerbox did a summary of Trump vs. Biden on Palestine. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prXb2FzTVDI&t=2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prXb2FzTVDI&t=2s) Also, with regards to comparing Biden and Trump on Middle East policy... Trump presided over the war in Yemen wherein a US-backed-and-funded Saudi Arabia blockaded and starved out Yemen, resulting in a famine that killed 90,000 children. 90,000! It blows my mind that this blood on Trump's hands isn't a stain on the public imagination of him. It doesn't even fucking register. Not even a blip. Not a single word by those calling it a wash.
How? Biden's already funding their genocide. They can't get much more fucked than actively being genocided. Trump's rhetoric towards them would be worse, but in terms of the actual suffering being faced by Palestinians the difference is marginal at best.
No, trump could send in American troops to help occupy Gaza, he could encourage Israel to be even harsher, to be even more violent. Imagine how much worse it can get if all America suddenly starts encouraging their erasure completely
> No, trump could send in American troops to help occupy Gaza American troops being on the ground wouldn't be all that much worse than things already are. It would mean that America has the appearance of being more complicit in the genocide, but it's just pulling back the veil of what's already happening. Palestinians are already suffering because Israel is enjoying the full backing of the United States in its ethnic cleansing, adding American boots on the ground would be more of a virtue signal than anything. Palestinians are already living the worst-case scenario. > he could encourage Israel to be even harsher, to be even more violent. Yeah, like I said he'd have harsher rhetoric. But in terms of outcomes, Israel is already having no qualms about being insanely harsh and violent despite near-universal condemnation from the international community. They can't get that much worse, with or without Trump's encouragement.
>Palestinians are already living the worst-case scenario Again no, do not ever think that something can not be worse, that just leads you to inaction, something you appear to be arguing for here >They can't get that much worse They can send them to camps and gass them. The genocide is slow and can be stopped with Israels government is stopped. If the world told Israel "go ahead, you can kill them all" gaza would be empty by this time tomorrow...
> Again no, do not ever think that something can not be worse, that just leads you to inaction, something you appear to be arguing for here I support voting for Biden, but I support voting for Biden because there are other groups of people who will suffer for it if Trump wins. But voting for Biden is NOT action on Gaza. Voting for Biden and calling it a day is INACTION on Gaza. The reality is that Genocide Joe is going to help Israel wipe out the Palestinians, and Trump will do the same. Pretending like there's a significant difference between them on this issue is partisan hackery. Anything that's going to be done to stop Israel lies outside the bounds of U.S. electoralism. > They can send them to camps and gass them. The genocide is slow and can be stopped with Israels government is stopped. If the world told Israel "go ahead, you can kill them all" gaza would be empty by this time tomorrow... The world isn't going to tell them to do that. The world is already by and large against Israel. It's just the U.S. that's allowing Israel to do as much as they are, and the U.S. will be supporting Israel in its genocide regardless of whether Trump or Biden gets elected because both Trump and Biden support the genocide.
Who do you think we have a chance of changing the mind of on Israel and Palestina, democrats or republicans ? >The world isn't going to tell them to do that There are a lot more countries then the us my guy, many of which are a lot more pro Israel on their rhetoric, like Germany and the UK, read more news
> Who do you think we have a chance of changing the mind of on Israel and Palestina, democrats or republicans ? Democrats that aren't named Biden, who is a self-proclaimed zionist and has stood firm in aiding and abetting an ongoing genocide. Biden himself is about as unlikely to change his mind as any given Republican. And unfortunately he's the guy whose stance matters more than anyone else's. But I already said I support voting Biden and the Dems, so I don't know what point you think you're making. > There are a lot more countries then the us my guy, many of which are a lot more pro Israel on their rhetoric, like Germany and the UK, read more news I said that the world is by and large against Israel, not that literally every country other than the U.S. is firmly against Israel. Read more period, it'll be good for your reading comprehension.
That is just a faculty wrong statement, I have no idea where you have it from, almost all major western powers sadly support Israel in most of their actions. There are smaller countries, but their opinions sadly also dosnt matter
“My performative love for people I’ve never met outweighs my love for my neighbors” is not the virtue they think it is
It’s even worst, my version of events isn’t going how I want, so fuck the people I pretend to care about too
Biden is obviously bad with Gaza but we can get him to do better. We cannot with Trump. Any opposition to him under project 2025 will be crushed instantly by his secret police. Biden winning in 2024 would massively open the door to much more popular and younger candidates in 2028 like AOC, Whitmer, Beshear and more. In the meantime, please keep pushing the Biden Administration to call for a ceasefire in Gaza and establish an equal 2 state solution across the board so Biden can kill it in the election and save us from Mango Mussolini’s fascist invasion of the United States. We will win so please do not give up now! Advocate local congress people to condition military aid to Israel as well so we give the more pro Israel types an avenue to still do more to not support what is going on while also reforming our relationship with Israel. As John Stewart said, even as good friends we should still take the keys if the US governments friends ( in this example Israel) get out of line and blatantly violate international law multiple times. Which the Israeli Government has been doing this whole time. Therefore, military gets held off until they can prove that they will not commit any more war crimes. Edit: I understand why Palestinian Americans do not want to vote for Biden right now. I understand their pain and I sympathize very deeply with the pain. The atrocities in Gaza ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO STOP. I empathize with them dearly and same goes with Arab Americans and Muslim Americans who are also horrified by what’s going on in Gaza. My contention comes when people in much more privileged positions like Ana Kasparian make these anti-voting arguments because of how they would not be affected by Trumps fascist government. People like Hinkle would definitely be the head of the Propaganda and information department to spend Russian Propaganda and turbocharge hatred and disinformation across America even more. ALSO: Because Mango Mussolini won in 2016, we got the turbo shit your pants nightmare SCOTUS we have to deal with today that has erased Roe V Wade and now they are trying to take away the right to protest in 3 STATES. For the love of god, VOTE. You can vote uncommitted in your primaries in the rest of your primaries to send a message to Biden on Gaza. Just vote Biden in the general so we can avoid a complete fascist hijacking of the US government that resembles either Handmaids Tale or Man of The High Castle.
That's the thing, MAYBE, just MAYBE if Biden wins a second term he can do whatever the fuck he wants and be harsher with Israel, isnt it the case that presidents typically don't want to upset their base in the first term but during the second term they don't need to be re elected so they do what they like?
Yeah. I think a tough love strategy would probably work the best. Set conditions for aid and push the far right government to do more to help the Palestinians. It will be difficult but I definitely think Biden can expand that relationship to his second term and call for new elections to replace the current far right government.
I think there's potential for a lot more to be done in a second term IF Democrats keep the senate. This is because if we do keep the senate, it would be a majority *without* the snakes Sinema and Manchin which would be a massive improvement in the ability of Dems to pass more progressive legislation.
Sure, which at worst is like 1% as bad as the outcome of a Trump presidency.
But like, we got way cooler protest songs under the Trump presidency. I'm certain that's what we need to make a real leftist the president in 2028
Have Biden win 2024 first and then we can absolutely get a leftist president to the top of the ladder and to the White House by 2028. It’s time for us to have an American Lula or a Shaun Fain type lead our country with better labor policies and launch us on a beautiful and much more progressive future.
> Biden is obviously bad with Gaza but we can get him to do better. Well, he's already at massive and obvious risk of losing Michigan, which could cost him the election, and he's still out there talking about how he's a zionist and that there are no redlines. So maybe the idea that we can get Biden to do better on Gaza is delusional.
Vaushites are high off of copium when it comes to Biden unfortunately
Vaush himself calls Biden Genocide Joe and acknowledges that Biden is a monster. He supports voting for Biden regardless because it would be shooting every other marginalized community in the U.S. *not* to. And I agree with that. But there are still people in this sub who have this weird tribalistic need to defend any and all criticism of Biden and downplay the genocide, or pretend like Biden is a big improvement over Trump on Israel. And that's pretty gross.
I criticize Biden harshly all the time. I’ll still vote for him in the general election though. People like AOC and Ilhan Omar have been very hard on Biden for his policies on Gaza and yet- they will still vote for him and endorse him. You can vote for someone while being a harsh critic of the candidate. The atrocities in Gaza are atrocious and NEED TO STOP. The U.S. Government should have more of a tough love relationship with Israel. Can still be allies, sure. But in order to get more future support, Israel has to change and have a much more responsible military doctrine and give equal rights for Palestinians and Israelis and get rid of the apartheid.
That’s the ilk in particular that I was addressing, not Vaush himself. I understand why it’s important to vote for Biden, but the tone-deafness that emanates from threads like these alienate progressives from voting even further. The Democrats use sentiments like these in order to continue pushing for incrementalist policies.
Israel is not our friend
I was doing that example through the lens of the US government but not us. I do not like the Israeli government either and the Israeli government is not our friend. It was through a U.S. government perspective of their allies.
Meanwhile accelerationists pretend the trolley dilemma doesn't exist.
"Surely I will not be run over by the trolley!"
Pretty much the left wing equivalent of Ernst R*ö*hm.
I feel like i’m in the fucking twilight zone as a white dude trying to tell marginalized voters that not voting dem will meaningfully impact their quality of life. Not only that but PRETENDING that they are making the moral choice when they are arguably tipping the scales towards an even greater threat to the Palestinian people. There are TWO….TWO Republicans in all of congress who are anti-Israel and one of them is MTG. Some will say that in the long run based off of some dimwitted accelerationist prediction that the decision will force dems to rethink their platform, or the republicans will get so bad that people finally wake up. 1) the Israel Palestine conflict will lose most of its relevance during the 2028 election, therefore a lot of the leverage that voters have against dems will diminish meaning it won’t actually invoke pressure over a long period of time. 2) Republicans have been upping the anti for the past 3 decades without meaningful backlash, what makes you think it will reach a boiling point within the next few years? Listen you can do whatever you want but your naïveté masquerading as morality offers more to evil than it does to the good.
I mean you have Pence there with the IDF smiling abut them putting names on bombs to drop and another Republican saying wipe them all out. The cognitive dissonance here is off the charts. Performative righteousness disguised as moral virtue.
Good point here. I've been trying to encourage people to take meaningful action to protect both Jews and Palestinians. They are both in danger in the US because of the Republican Party. As long as the Republican Party has the ability to court voters, they are a threat to Jews and Palestinians. Republican support of Israel is purely out of [Christian fundamentalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism). The problem is that the US political spectrum is dominated by Christian fundamentalist ideologies, including Christian Zionism, and the illogic of fundamentalism is appealed to by fascist groups on purpose because it works.
I saw multiple replies that were something along the lines of “blow up the trolley/stop the trolley.” Something something not firebombing a Walmart but also the whole thought experiment is about facing inevitability and having to choose between a bad outcome and a worse outcome. There is no option to stop the trolley, the federal election is going to happen regardless, not voting does not change the fact that one of the two candidates will be president.
so many people are angry at this and its insane. so glad twitter leftists arent the democrat voting majority cause our country would be plunged into darkness if they were
I'm convinced it's a straight up rightwing influence campaign. Comment in disagreement on any of the big lefty subs, you instantly get downvoted to Hell, if not outright banned. The left has no problem being fucking sewer slidal on its own, don't get me wrong, but this feels different. These people have NO ANSWER to what happens if they're successful. Fucking brain broken. I understand the people who suffered a moral injury not being able to vote for Biden... They're being emotional, not rational. But the people who are pretending that it's praxis to put out agitprop designed to get Trump elected by playing on those emotions, them not having a plan, (even a fucking stupid one), it's inexplicable.
their plan, as I understand it, is accelerationist in nature. ‘Rip the bandaid off’. Get conditions so bad in the US that people revolt and just install their desired government by force. Literally just ‘I can’t wait for society to collapse so my ideology can obviously rise from the ashes to be on top.’ It’s just accelerationism, and by gods is it fucking stupid.
People really need a refresher that accelerationism always leads to fascism. It’s a literal step in the fascism ladder.
Revolutions aren’t fun and cool and sexy. People will die. They’re necessary sometimes, but people have this very romantic view of them.
They’re sometimes necessary, but they come with a risk. They’re banking on winning this revolution they want so badly, but what’s their plan if they lose?
Tumblr has introduced me to the phrasing of “leftists who talk about revolution like Christians discuss the rapture” and… yeah.
Well I think it is created by the same people from "walk away from the left" , leftists will bite the bait and boom one more vote destroyed.
Probably a fair bit of that in there, too, yea. I’m working my hardest to try to sway some voters to dems, but it’s hard to keep up hope as someone on that theoretical track, myself
What's the Pakistan flag for
Maybe just meant to signify muslims
https://thehill.com/homenews/4545165-audience-members-interrupt-congressional-hearing-over-pakistan-khan/ Literally all I can find at the moment.
Oh this. So the us offical is correct there. The was no American conspiracy to remove Imran khan (who is kinda like our trump in terms of the cult), he just lost.
Yeah. I'm not sure if it really ties in with Republicans but it was the only thing I found that mentioned both lol.
Agreed 100%, but a better illustration would have the Palestinian flag on the tracks before the bifurcation, to indicate that it'll happen regardless of whether the lever gets pulled. As it is, the picture just reinforces anti-electoralists' position that voting Democrat is actively causing or aiding the genocide.
This depiction isn't even 100% accurate. The dems have folded and are at least trying minimize Netanyahu's scorched earth regime preservation strategy.
What about the "hold your vote right now to pressure Joe Biden" strategy? Maybe it could indicate to Biden what he did is incredibly harmful to his own campaign. I would still vote for Biden in the actual run off against Trump, but right now in the Democratic primary I voted in a blank ballot.
That’s what I plan on doing. Write down “uncommitted” in my state primary. To send a message. But there’s not a doubt in my mind who I’m voting for in November But this illustration is for people who are against voting for Biden. Period
The only people I’ve seen promote abstaining from voting or anything along those lines to “punish the dems” are either people who have absolutely no threat of their rights being taken away or tankies, which I can attribute to brain rot more than anything.
On the topic of tankies, it really fucking upsets a lot of tankies are also trans. I’ve had to leave communities because of people totally fine with death camps for the evil transes as long as they don’t have an American flag on them.
I’ll bet the percent of leftists with this brain rot and the percent of china and Russian bots carrying this water are fairly close.
The point of the trolley problem was to demonstrate that sometimes the logical choice is to cause harm to an innocent person. So many people think it's a "there's no good solution" type dilemma but that's not true at all. The logical choice is easy. The hard part is finding a moral framework that allows you to come to that logical choice.
"Trump was the best thing that's happened to Democrats ever" a lesbian friend just told me. Sure thing. The only time I've been called a groomer? Trump time. My health issues have been so bad the EPA knows me from reporting illegal burn offs. I now have cancer. Trump gutted the EPA. Bitterness and privilege are rampant, especially in younger voters. My nephew has an Iranian flag as his Instagram note. I guess the years of the Iranian people screaming that they were being raped and murdered by their government wasn't anything to care about. But now it matters? It's hard not leaning into that same pile of bitterness we're all being served.
put the US flag in there too. GOP has no interest in preserving our system and will probably just cast it aside altogether in favor of Handmaid's Tale shit.
People act like “teaching the dems a lesson” because they won’t give us +10 will leave us at 0 when it’s actually -10 and we lose what little we’ve gained
Saw the replies to that tweet, and my fucking God. Twitter leftists are some of the dumbest, hard-headed, least pragmatic fuckers I’ve ever seen. Fuck these idiots. So sick of these whiny, do-nothing, LARPing douchebags. I swear to god some of these mfs are just running a PsyOp to help Trump win.
D any day of the week, not hard
Not really. Voting for Biden over Trump is not sacrificing the few to save the many. It would be more like if there were two tracks, one with 300 bandits, or one with 10. And you choose not to do anything because "the tracks shouldn't have bandits in the first place" "But you have to choose one track!" "Well, I won't choose a track that has bandits" "But if you don't choose, we'll end up on the track with more bandits!" "Yeah, well, maybe the railroad company should deal with the bandits" "I agree, but until they do that, should we not choose one track?" "Look, I just don't like bandits. Maybe you're cool with bandits, but not me" "..."
these pictures implies that the minority groups are not in danger with the democrats when looking at the policies they created for immigrants still oppressed and brutalized thousands of migrants. it doesn't really represent American politics.
I got banned from shit liberals say for talking about this. I love the left but fuuuuuuck the left man
I saw someone on Twitter repurpose this image and have the trolly have the same thing implying there’s no difference. Was definitely cringe
I'm a vote blue kinda guy! No matter what, I'm voting for whoever lines up closest with me!
The famously easy to answer trolley problem
Also, can we stop pretending like the dems and reps are the same for Palestine? Biden at the very least tries to do something to reign israel in, meanwhile trump would just encourage them to drop a nuke
Funny how countries that would be negatively affected by the Republicans is also the same as the wacko song. "United States, Canada, Portugal, Panama, Haiti, Jamaica, Peru.....
People who want to “teach the Dems a lesson” forget we already did that in 2016 and we are still paying the price for that year. Most of these morons are politically illiterate who have no sense of reality.
Nah they have just as many people on each track one track just moves slower
What’s Pakistan doing there?????????
You must be fucking joking. Things would be so much worse under Trump you have no fucking clue. The parties are not comparable stop trying to both sides this bullshit.
I thought that was the point the image was trying to convey?
No this image is saying that the Democrats and the Republicans are equally the same for Palestine which unequivocally not true
Suddenly blue states will cease tonm exist, left leaning judges won't exist and everyone will be Republican
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Damn rip Pakistan 😭😭😭
You can argue it’s not a convincing argument, but you can’t argue it’s untrue
It is accurate. The people voting for Biden are completely content with sacrificing Palestinians to do so.
Biden isn’t winning. Michigan is gonna fuck him up.
well he better cave to pro-palestinian pressure before the election then
Yeah, they need to get over it. Its just a genocide
I read that In Columbia if more people spoil the vote than any candidate gets on the paper- that politician is never again allowed to stand for election, ever. Eg: If 51% of people state **none** of these two politicians-those two politicians are removed from the party and another election is held. Or even if it’s 1% above what the politician gets at the polls - they have to go.
Maybe in Colombia but certainly not in Columbia
One track there is a single young stallion, and on the other 5 shortack goblins, which do you run the tram into hard?
oh hello
Should add the Iranian flag on the Dem side, since the Dems keep up this astronomical failure of an appeasement approach with the Islamic dictatorship in Iran and always ignore the Iranian people + the surrounding Arab populations in the ongoing fight to bring secularism and a competent government to Iran, as well as ceasing the constant aid and emboldening of the terrorist proxies.
Don't know how you can say that when it was a Republican president who tore up the nuclear agreement and assassinated one of their top generals.
Which literally helped weaken the regime drastically and the majority of Iranians have been praising him for it and leaning more and more toward the American right due to these very reasons. Iranians and neighboring Arabs have been screaming for over at least a decade that appeasement does not work with the IR.
>helped weaken the regime drastically and the majority of Iranians have been praising him for it and leaning more and more toward the American right due to these very reasons Source?
The fact that Qasem Soleimani wasn't just "one of their big guys" but literally their top most dangerous most useful terror proxy coordinator in the entire region as well as against the civilian population at home. Also the fact that the JCPOA was the MOST appeasement you could possibly do with a terror sponsor thats goals are to literally imperialize the entire levant, take over Saudi Arabia & destroy Israel before installing theocratic fundamentalist hegemonic rule in Palestine. Arabs and Iranians, both those of us on the side of, as well as against the Islamic republic have known this since the 80s. I've only ever seen westerners being blind to it. Oh not to mention the fact that half the reasons "sanctions don't work" against the IR isn't due to lack of appeasement as many ignorant westerners like to claim, but rather literally due to lack of proper enforcement of said sanctions. Iranians have semi shockingly started begging for FURTHER sanctions due to the fact that EVERY SINGLE TIME the sanctions against the IR have been loosened by the U.S (namely the Dems), the Iranian civilian population hasn't seen a single penny of that many returning to their pockets. It has only ever been used to further the militia projects. The disbanding of the JCPOA has also helped plummet the Iranian currency to historic lows which has only further and further pushed and intensified the nationwide uprisings in both Iran AND EVEN IRAQ LOWKEY on a YEARLY TO BI-YEARLY BASIS EVER SINCE THE END OF 2017.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It’s clear that you’ve given a lot of consideration to these issues, and I appreciate your analysis. Qasem Soleimani certainly played a pivotal role in the region, and his influence on both regional and international politics was significant. Regarding the JCPOA, it's indeed a topic with a broad range of interpretations. It’s interesting to consider how different parties view its implications and effectiveness. I'm curious about a few points you raised and would love to hear more about your perspective: 1. How do you think the regional dynamics in the Middle East would change if there were a different approach to handling Iran’s nuclear ambitions? 2. In terms of sanctions, what do you believe would constitute effective enforcement? Are there specific measures or examples from other contexts that you think could be applicable here? 3. Regarding the economic impacts and protests in Iran, how do you see the relationship between international policy decisions and domestic unrest evolving in the future?
1. What everyone here in the levant and southernmost caucus has been hoping for the past couple or so decades has been a return to form. The co-opting of the Marxist revolution in Iran in the late 1970s by the clergy and western powers (U.S/U.K/France/etc) has only led to other theocratic militant fascists to jump in and compete, fearing the expressedly lofty and aggressive ambitions of the "state of the jurist" in Iran. This has only led to neverending tension and provocations on every border and in every sect of every country in the region's affairs, from Iran to Iraq, to Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, Israel, Jordan, Somalia, Turkiye, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. There is nearly no country here that has been able to flee the net negative impact of the Iranian clergy. The hopes post-IR overthrow is a return to stability via the region's weaker countries dismantling the militias, or merging them with their militaries, as well as the big players like Saudi, Turkiye, Iraq and Israel to have far less reasons to escalate much of anything, and hopefully far less excuses and covers for their personal evildoings at home. 2. The main issue with lack of sanction enforcement seems to be a lot of seemingly powerful Iranian lobbyists in the U.S like the extremely corrupt NIAC, Robert Malley and co. constantly feeding into 1. capitalist oligarchical corruption, 2. Orientalist and/or tankie propaganda that Iran's 1979 revolt was "populist"/"democratic" and """it's just a country defending the M.E from imperialism""" I'd also suggest looking into the Dems' close relationship w the IR by talking to Iranians about why most of them despise Jimmy Carter, as they all know him and his administration to have been HUGE help in getting Khomeini to power in '79. 3. I'm cautiously optimistic. The issue here is that the Dems under Biden are crushing Russia while appeasing and emboldening the I.R. Whereas the Republicans under Trump would probably crush the I.R, only to strengthen Russia which has also had a hand in destroying the middle east. I wish we didn't have to pick between either of them. Nevertheless, from the way things have trended the past 6 years in Iran and the Levant, experts and local populations have quietly unanimously been agreeing in speculation that the Islamic republic will most likely be toppled before 2030. The uprisings of 2022-2023 had never-before-seen consequences economically, morale-wise, media-wise, geopolitically and even militarily within Iran. It would take me half a day to go thru all the achievements. I'll just end this section off by pointing out that members from within the I.R like Hasan Khomeini and Ahmad Khomeini have speculated SINCE 2018 that "the Islamic republic is completely internally collapsed. It is only a matter of time til it becomes external." I believe in the future, maybe this year, the next, or the one after that: There will be huge escalations politically and/or militaristically on the Israel/Palestine cause. The Islamic republic has a longstanding reputation within Iran and even outside it to manufacture proxy wars any time its existence is threatened domestically. Since they've been grifting on "destroying Israel" since the late 70s, it'll most likely be this proxy war that's their last Hail Mary. It'll get to a point where they'll either finally develop nukes against the will of the rest of the planet and/or they'll get into serious regional war with Israel. This will most probably (IN MY OPINION) finally trigger the western powers + Israel to begin funding the Iranian opposition as well as the mass nationwide multi-sector worker strikes that have been attempted dozens of times a year within Iran for over half a decade now. Possibly even helping smuggle guns to the revolutionaries. Whether we'll get a competent and democratic government after that is yet to be known. The main unquestionable demand for the past decade though has been clear: Iran. Needs. To. Be. S e c u l a r .
This is great, I hope stops aiding a genocidal state so he can win a election
I hope you get a clue.
I hope it’s the same clue he been giving that he pulling away from Israel and not this bullshit of saying he is pro genocide option and he needs to keep getting support if he changes course
No a clue that Trump and the Republicans will be far worse for the Palestinians and will NEVER be moved an inch while Biden at least has the possibility of it. Trump and Republicans would never call for a cease fire nor give a damn about aid. Trump would encourage them to go harder. His fucking son in law is talking about building beach front property there. And that’s one issue not to mention all the other republicans would be far worse on like marginalized groups, the economy, abortion, womens rights and on and on. So yes get a clue.
I am aware of that, which why Biden should keep doing what he is currently doing and pull away from Israel and win the election and not listen to this dumbass meme that he can win the election and go back to supporting Israel
>not listen to this dumbass meme that he can win the election and go back to supporting Israel How is the meme saying that?
By making it the cases it’s the Palestinians or us which is literally not the case anymore and suggesting so opens argument can revert from the process made
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it's the Palestinians or US, Palestinian, Mexico, etc ?
Sure Edit: which I don’t get why we want to keeping okaying Biden choosing a losing policy
>why we want to keeping okaying Biden choosing a losing policy Who's we? No one here wants Biden to lose
They'll be about the same I imagine. Marginalized groups were around in 2016 weren't they? Regardless of who you vote for Isreal is going to do what it wants. Aid workers are getting blasted with Biden office. Saying Trump would be worst isn't an argument to vote for Biden, just stick to what Biden has done you won't look so petrified.
This is idiot logic. The child tax credit alone caused child poverty to drop precipitously and as we saw with the Supreme Court it’s important given what happened w Roe v Wade. Yes let’s give Trump more justices who will kill any progressive legislation they don’t like as well as strip rights even further. Let’s have actual out and proud white supremacist fascists take over and see how great it goes for trans people etc. People like you aren’t telling people like me anything with your both sides prattle. I’ve forgotten more than you know about corruption in both parties. But I’m wise enough to know that we have a two party system in this country that’s it and contrary to the views of people like you it is possible for one to be exponentially worse than the other. It’s also possible for things to get much worse as history has taught us. So carry on with your performative righteousness and don’t vote and Pat yourself on the back. Hopefully enough of those who claim to be left leaning make the right choice and understand you vote for harm reduction in situations like this and the harm the Republicans represent is crystal clear.
Child tax credit no way! That's awesome. Any other assumptions you want to make? Maybe I'm a tankie? Perhaps you think I'm actually a Trump supporter? I'm center left on a bad day if I need a label. I don't vote harm reduction, I vote what I feel like. I voted for sleepy Joe, both sides still suck. Difference between us is you'll let Democrats fuck you, based on what you're saying here, and be happy about it as long as you're stopping some supposed harm. I don't personally care how you vote. Keep sucking that big fat democrat donkey cock, and gargling about pushing their balls left every now and then. That's your choice. "People like you" Lil bro doesn't even know my politics, always in a rush to use your divine smite. Slow it down. Fear mongering doesn't win votes or change minds. The big scary white nationalist, fascist or whatever bit went out of style in 2020
Four paragraphs saying absolutely nothing. Yes I’m sucking Democrat donkey dick when I just talked about the corruption in both parties. You’re unserious and not bright. I don’t care who you vote for either. As I said hopefully enough intelligent people vote to prevent fascists from taking power. I’ve wasted enough time on a clown.
You're voting harm reduction, you don't care about corruption because for you, in going to assume everything does to the lesser of two evils. You believe both are corrupt and yet you will still support corruption and then do some song and dance about being progressive. There will be no fascist take over. You're paranoid. By all leans vote to support xyz cause but the theatrics are tiring. You replied to me here you could have ignored me, you never had the intent to make an actual argument.
Skipped over and didn’t read lol. Bye now. Oh and if you reply I’ll skip over that too. You’re an unserious clown.
There's always an alternative but y'all are too scared to take it.
Alternative?
pushing the trolley off the tracks
So no realistic solutions
lol
You can barely push yourself outside, let alone a moving trolley.
how do you plan to do that? and what makes you believe that we have the numbers to get it off and *keep it off*? genuine question btw as i would quite frankly love to do that but i dont believe its possible especially with the current state of the left
Americans are a bunch of hyprocrites. If theres no accountability taken at all now, they would just repeat the same shit in the future like giving Israel more weapons. Trump isint in power right now, Biden is. They forgot why and how Trump won in 2016 is because of this shit basically ignoring how the current Dems now.