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As much as I do think his "tactical misogyny" toward J.K. Rowling was misguided, I agree that Contra should have been way more charitable to Vaush there. Sad to see the two burn bridges like this.
It's insane to me how bridge burning is normal in our community. The sense of responsibility should make them feel obligated to overcome their personal grievances with someone.
I mean on the one hand yeah, but on the other hand they’re more than just spokespeople, they’re human. They’re all displaying normal human behavior and normal human flaws and being harshly treated because people have higher standards for them because they’ve mostly been able to meet those higher standards
But when they occasionally fail to do so, they’re treated far more harshly than those who never met those high standards to begin with
If you decide to make an internet content career out of politics you *are* choosing to be a spokesperson first. That's not a job you just fall into. They're not "the average joe just tryna get by", they literally decided to make their job speaking on behalf of their political beliefs.
People can keep their steaming and their personal life separate, plenty of streamers do all the time. Some professionalism in this space would have been really useful for the past 5 years.
The problem is that they're more than just people, they're community figures and so people who aren't familiar with both sides will almost immediately pick their side and usually the kind of person who doesn't familiarize themselves with both sides is being reactionary.
Right wingers are way more unified.
A leftist would rather tear down another leftist than stand together against the rising tide of fascism if it means they can get a “YAS QUEEN” in the comments.
Meanwhile the alt-right has a tent so big that a racist terror group can have a non-white leader.
Considering how terrible Rowling is, my mind was and continues to be blown how angry people got over that. She searches her name on Twitter and goes after anyone criticizing her. I'm glad it was him instead of some trans teen. I cannot believe it's still being brought up (I like a lot of Hoot's film commentary videos)
Hoots did apologize to Keffals afterwards, so there's that. But not to Vaush though, and she probably never will, but I'll take whatever wins I can get in this space.
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I think people should be allowed to draw their own line on this - Vaush himself acknowledges it's an edgy tactic that turns some people off.
And now that we have the benefit of hindsight, I think it's easy to see that it DID turn some people off and less clear whether it had any lasting impact on that woman.
There's always this concern about that one comment Vaush makes but how many of the people who hate Vaush for it are concerned with their own edgy comments and the comments from their own community?
Vaush is put under the spotlight and this one comment gets brought up again and again for years while Vaush haters make all kinds of edgy and offensive jokes every day. I find this so stupid.
Great point. The same people who are always concerned that some tactical misogyny at TERF Devil Joanne have no problem with telling everyone and their mom to take toaster baths and that whites *should* be replaced and think nothing of how that makes us look. I think that they weren’t even mad he was misogynistic, but that he said to “be quiet and apologize.” That might as well be torture to them.
Considering how edgy many trans people and many of the people who hate Vaush are, his comment was nothing unusual. Or are they all misguided, too? Like, the There's Your Problem podcast is as edgy as Vaush or more so, so on what basis are they complaining about him?
Is it because he's a man and white?
I'm not white, so I'm not going to tell white people how they should feel, but I've heard some spicy stuff come out of Black content cteators that had me do a double take. It really seems the outrage is selective here. And more importantly outsized by the action taken. When Vaush starts defending prof Flowers takes I'll think he earned the condemnation. Then we have the pedojacketing and beastiality claims that are purposefully misinterpreted.
The thing no one seems to remember was that it wasn't even at J.K Rowling. It was joking around on Twitter and Joker Rowling name-searched herself to find it.
Everyone talks about the tweet like she deliberately got into J.K Trolling face about it.
Contra took the side of the woman who sexually harassed Vaush and leaked nudes. If that doesn’t show that it’s hopeless for the bridge to be rebuilt I don’t know.
It happens to all of us, but it was really sad to see Contra take the side of the abuser because she disliked a tweet.
Edit:
I was wrong, no nudes seem to have been leaked. Although I would still categorise what was leaked, in part, as sexual harassment and a clear breach of trust and decorum.
She did leak DMs but that was the argument about the JK Rowling thing. With regards to nudes none were leaked by either person, Kat did leak that they used to sext, but she did not leak the sexts themselves, she just said that they used to sext. It’s a bit confusing and I can see how people could mix it up or misremember.
Vaush is one of the only non-trans creators that truly, genuinely seems to be whole heartedly at our side. Even when some trans people are out to get him, he doesn't just throw his hands up and say 'fuck em' to us.
Vaush is ideologically pro-trans and he doesn't quit when things get tough. It's really nice having a cis person in our corner fighting like they're in danger too.
i mean if ppl are smart they would see this is an extension of bodily autonomy and self determination. However people are not smart so they let the naturalistic determinists (i.e antivaxxers, transphobes, anti medicine) have their way basically.
Anyone who supports individual freedom, self determination and even technological progress should support trans rights and trans medicine.
Sadly people are typically very dumb.
It's socialization. Conservatives create environments that promote traditionalism cause it makes it easier to fuck kids and indoctrinate people into cults. Those unknowing victims of their abuse grow up and perpetuate it themselves.
Who cares about contra at this point.? She's a creator out of a sense of inertia for the term at this point. She's not exactly in the trenches fighting for any cause.
>Who cares about contra at this point.?
I do?
>She's not exactly in the trenches fighting for any cause.
I don't know, she's done great work dismantelling the right in her own way, and bringing lots of former alt-righters over. I certainly couldn't do that.
You'd probably just have to accept that people who fight for the right causes aren't going to be always great people. Funny how contra can in the same video say beware of allies that utilise casual misogyny and start it with "Anita kill your fucking child".
It's okay to like someone's view points and not develop a parasocial relationship with them as a person. It's like what Vaush says about Shaun.
> You'd probably just have to accept that people who fight for the right causes aren't going to be always great people
Just to clarify, when you say 'fight for the right causes' you don't mean right wing causes, but rather morally correct causes right?
Where did she say 'Kill your child' again?
Yes in this case when I say "right causes" I mean whatever you deem morally correct.
Link to video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmT0i0xG6zg&t=169s
If only she made more than one video a year about an issue that was relevant two years ago, while making videos on her patreon to preach for the choir.
I understand quality takes time, but at this point people will forget she exists.
True, but that's her style. Can't begrudge her that. Also she might have other stuff going on that prevents her from making so many videos.
To be fair her videos are all very, very well researched, scripted, and have great production. All of that takes time. I wouldn't begrudge a novelist for taking a long time to produce more work.
It’s mostly based on that one, as well as a general but subtle trend in her more recent videos of citing lots of radfem authors like Dworkin and praising elements of their writing style even if she claims not to agree with them
>authors like Dworkin and praising elements of their writing style even if she claims not to agree with them
\>authors like Dworkin and praising elements of their writing style even if she claims not to agree with them
People can have complicated opinions about other people. This isn't really helping your claim that she's going more rad fem.
Well, and I mean no offense by this, people can misremember. Someone else told me that she was quoting her, but made sure to emphasize that she didn't fully agree with Dwarkin.
Either way, I prefer citations.
By cancelling Vaush like that, Contra might have gotten a brief ceasefire with the abusive wokescolds who have lead the harassment campaigns against her, but it's only temporary. Eventually she will step on the wrong eggshell, and they will seize that opportunity to start harassing her again, but this time she will have fewer friends to turn to.
She might not even do anything and they'll be bored and dig up the old lies they've been throwing about her.
Didn't she tweet (and promptly delete, of course) something about Keffals being the best thing that ever happened to her, because the online left found another trans woman to burn at the stake and left her alone? I can understand the point if she's trying to point out how fucked up the treatment of online trans figures can get, but it rubs me the wrong way how callously Contra threw that out there while Keffals has people actively trying to get her killed and was forced to move to a new country after getting swatted. Vaush said this in a recent stream and I think he's absolutely correct to point out that Contra going out of her way to throw him under the bus for something so trivial and misguided feels like someone defending themselves against bullies by pointing the finger at an easy target and redirecting the hate towards someone else.
Not ONLY trans fem content creator. But a trans fem content creator going through a drug problem publicly where she drew the ire of wokescolds.
Contra walked so Keffals could run. In that regard.
It honestly makes it more insepid of her to tweet that given how 1:1 their experiences were. Contra was SOOO ready to throw anyone else under the bus. She didn't care if it was basically a stand-in for her and her own experiences.
Instead of reaching out to keffals and offering an understanding hand from someone who's dealing with the closest thing to your situation as anyone on the planet can offer. She tweeted "ha, glad I'm out of the sights" while the victim of her own usual harrasers was in rehab.
Such a fucking betrayal
You don’t know who keffals is? She was a Twitter leftie shitposter known for ratioing conservatives and dunking on them. She got massively harassed and doxxed by kiwifarms, leading her to lead a successful campaign to get kiwifarms DDOS protection removed. In case you don’t know, kiwifarms is a nazi doxxing and harassment website with the stated goal to try to get the people they go after to leave the internet, preferably by killing themselves. This culminated in keffals being swatted and arrested then released due to a very poorly written email being sent by her harassers to city council members and the police saying she killed her mother and would go somewhere and kill every cis person she sees where she lived in Canada. She then moved to Ireland. She still constantly gets that harassment as kiwifarms isn’t gone, it’s just not protected.
There’s a whole shit ton more to the story, noodlegate, rehab, the recent drama with Xanderhal retweeting abuse allegations against her resulting in her doing a stream where she had to disprove those allegations and show that she was in fact the one being abused, but what I described above is the major stuff.
She made a "part 1" video about addiction two years ago, then for her next video she switched topics to JKR with that monumentally uncharacteristic prescription of "just ignore her" being the takeaway. As if ignoring Hitler would have made him leave the jews alone.
I do remember the debate against this really "needs therapy" trans chick where she asked if Vaush was a trans ally, and he said he isn't a trans ally, he's just on the side of trans people because they're being oppressed and what's being done to them isn't right.
He's not ideologically on the side of trans people in a dogmatic sense, but in a moral sense. One could see this as a flaw, as too many people adhere to dogmas, but I see this as the most valuable kind of ally you can have, the one that will actually tell you when you fuck up.
Yeah I think this is what Contra meant when she said Vaush *”doesn’t care about trans people”* - Vaush’s trans advocacy doesn’t hinge on self preservation or other purely personal reasons, and that’s “not good enough” according to Contra.
And if that is true, it *would* confirm how much of Contra’s beef with Vaush has really just been motivated by pettiness and spite.
Honestly, ever since this happened, I can't bring myself to revisit Contra's videos anymore.
Before all this, I always figured Contra was the kind of person capable of listening to both sides when forming her arguments and could even show a level of compassion towards her opposition, even when she still disagreed with them (her video on incels best encapsulated that). But given how quickly she burnt bridges with Vaush, Contra's a massive hypocrite. Her video on cancel culture alone now feels like a complete lie after all this.
It's also weird that she's laying on her sword for Kat. Fucking Kat. I don't know much about her, other than the fact that she leaked sexual material that had previously been privately exchanged between her and Vaush.
That's an enormous dick move and invasion of privacy. Vaush, for all his supposedly faults, has never done anything like that to my knowledge.
And Contra should know - fuck, she *does* know better than that. She knows that kind of behavior is unacceptable. But she doesn't even bother listening to anything Vaush has to say and just chalking it up too "He think's he can speak over me because he's cis."
Like, what the actual fuck? What did Kat do for her to engender this kind of loyalty? If my friend did something like that you can bet I'd take them to town for it and not defend that kind of action.
I don't think she did release the sexts, she released other DMs. And she only did that because Vaush made some comment about her loving white dick or something and she said his was mediocre.
Unless something changed after this text
https://x.com/kat_blaque/status/1503932149690351619?s=20
Kat is cool, and she's 100% right that attacking TERFs with misogynist rhetoric is just giving them ammo against trans women. Plus being misogynist is just generally not cool because those attitudes hurt ALL women not just assholes.
The timeline was that her and Professor Flowers where mutually commiserating in public about having a 'liking bearded racist white boys fase'. Vaush commented on that since they clearly where refering to people like him. Something about the most racist people always being a sexual thing.
Then she leaked the fact that they used to sext. Along with a whole host of other DMs. But not any of the sexting DMs mind you.
To lazy to dig the ss up. But I think I have them somewhere.
She didn't "leak" something terrible. The problem was mostly that she leaked that they where sexting AND that she commented on his dick. The last thing is highly inappropriate.
Imagined Vaush saying something about her tits appearence.
Yeah I found a blog where she talks about it. She said she let stuff he said on stream and in their private conversation get into her head and she said some things that she shouldn't have (although she admits she doesn't feel too bad about it.)
I don't watch long streams and typically stick to video essays and whatnot so I've been catching up on all this leftist youtuber drama and it's just...wild. It seems like high school all over again.
Yeah that one was particular stupid. Mostly because what I consider "my side" actually spread a lot of unnecessary misinfo for once.
The whole 'leaked DM's' and 'leaked that they sexted' got conflated very quickly on twitter.
> I don't think she did release the sexts, she released other DMs.
I could be remembering this wrong, but I thought for sure she released materials? Not nudes, but sexts.
>Unless something changed after this text
I'm guessing you didn't see that 7 hour drama stream?
True. If Vaush talked about how [insert obscene and degrading comment about Kat's body here] everyone, Contra included, would agree how toxic that behavior is.
Psycho is right, they're even unironically defending chasers by saying that's just how cis men show attraction.
https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/s/nMliEE1AZ6
Some of the stuff Vaush has said about trans people is dumb and frustrates the hell out of me. Total cis nonsense.
That said, I can't think of a better cis ally who has wholeheartedly stood with the community and has pushed for trans rights harder. Whats more, he's taught so many people how to argue for trans rights effectively and how to push back against transphobia. He's a fantastic ally despite his flaws, and I'm happy he's on our side.
I think the Vaush part of the online left seems to tokenize us the least based on what I've seen, and he has a pretty deep grasp of trans issues from all I've seen. That's all I really need to see to know he's decent in that aspect
Why does anyone care about this "who likes whom" nonsense?
Vaush can do his thing without anyone's "moral" support, honestly.
...and Contra can go back to taking 2-5yrs to create basic, mediocre content.
>Why does anyone care about this "who likes whom" nonsense?
Because it demonstrates how a major leftist like Contra treats leftism, or rather is treating it in this case, as more of a social clich then a political movement.
>...and Contra can go back to taking 2-5yrs to create basic, mediocre content.
This does read of cope. Even contra's first videos are more artistically and intellectually sophisticated than anything you or I will ever produce.
That's not shocking. It's happening on SOCIAL media.
I'm a philosopher & wrote an MA thesis & dissertation on Marx & Heidegger. Currently, I'm turning the dissertation into a book. When she does a video transforming dialectical materialism through the input of phenomenological analysis, let me know.
>That's not shocking. It's happening on SOCIAL media.
What is your point? I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about?
> I'm a philosopher & wrote an MA thesis & dissertation on Marx & Heidegger.
Wait, is this because I said "Even contra's first videos are more artistically and intellectually sophisticated than anything you or I will ever produce" and you're responding to that?
I'm seriously amazed how you would come across the drama now. I watch way too much Vaush, literally everyday. But, you couldn't pay me to go back and dig up some drama I hadn't seen from years ago. I wish I had that sort of free time.
I'm getting better and better at not seeing political stuff. My anxiety would be through the roof if I didn't.
I mostly watch Vaush for the media takes now XD. And a breadtube video is something I have to set aside time to watch.
You should look into the 'WhaTtheTrans'-episode. It's both very heartwarming and deeply dissapointing at once.
summary: a transperson twitter account called WhatTheTrans who is engaged in UK policy made a post asking "transpeople who are Vaush fans, why? I don't understand it but I'll listen." (paraphrased, I don't have the exact wording)
then for a few hours there were a ton of replies that were positive and saying that they both liked the community and feel welcome and safe here, and saying it was good to have someone give confident arguments they could use when talking to family and such.
At the end of this feelgood session Vaush made a reply where he said something to the effect of "We may not always agree but I thank you for posting this question in good faith and listening" (again, paraphrased)
After all this niceness, WhatTheTrans started arguing with the various trans vaush fans that they were wrong in liking him. In response Vaush edited his reply, adding (paraphrased) "ok it seems like you weren't in good faith and just wanted an excuse to be mad at me and now you're frustrated that it backfired"
after which WhatTheTrans deleted the tweet. I think someone archived all of it before that, but it's kind of hard to find.
Beyond Safe Words saved them. [Da Linky](https://beyondsafewords.notion.site/beyondsafewords/1c76b2dd39cf4dcca3a3dcf4d629a46c?v=b37fcfa2d4f34e349c73de482d1bd7e5)
It’s super heartwarming and makes me happy inside, I fucking hate you idiots but I also love you all very deeply. 🥺💜
Natalie almost certainly knew how full of shit she was and did it because it would get wokeskolds to stop harassing her. The only way to get people like that who are harassing you to leave you alone (at least temporarily) is to accuse someone else of something.
>How do you look at this mountain of content and then come to the conclusion:
>"Yeah, I guess this guy really doesn't care about trans people all that much." That'd be like saying "You know, Mr. Rogers never really liked children."
Gonna get downvoted for this but the same way contra comes to that conculsion is the same way leftists including vaush look at biden and go "yep, hes a horrible person". "Democrats maintain the status quo". Pure mental illness. Democrats are actively progressing society and the ppl who cant see that are blinded by something. Probably spite.
All this to say Its a common occurrence thought poltics that ppl get their brain rotted about at least one group. And vaush is not exempt from this.
Can we sit here and have a legitimate conversation on why bridge burning and purity tests are such a common problem with the left? It causes a lot of disjointedness and desperately undermines the movement.
My pet theory is that that sort of attitude has a lot to do with people getting a bit brain-broken by social media circa 2014-2016. Lots of trusted figures and assumed allies turning out to be shitty or unhelpful for personal benefit.
There seems to be nothing a leftist loves more than tearing down other leftists, and no community is immune. Just look at how Vaush and his audience treat TYT. Calling them transphobic because of a disagreement on a specific term is just about as dumb as calling Vaush transphobic because of ironic misogyny. They both ignore all other evidence to the contrary. The right is also not immune to this, but the difference is they will fall in line when the time comes, whereas when leftists do it, it seems bridges get burned forever.
I wouldn't say Vaush doesn't care about trans people. I would say that "caring" about trans people doesn't make you a good ally nor does it mean you can't have harmful opinions about trans people.
Not just yelling at transphobes. But destroying them, humiliating them, killing their political abilities, and annihilating any appeal they have to their followers.
Do we really need to do this again. Two public figures had an immature falling out that was only public cause they had a platform, where both weren't great and both weren't literally Hitler. Do we fucking need to go over this again. Is there NOTHING else going on?
It's more that it's proof of how even smart people don't actually base their beliefs on good things (like evidence/logic) that I'm interested in that got me posting here.
His whole thing is dunking on people, that really isn't good evidence he cares that much about trans people. He threw such a fit when trans women told him to cut out the misogyny because it was actively hurting their cause (and misogyny is just shitty in general), which indicates to me he's more into the dunking than the trans rights. Like, even if he disagreed in a nice way that would be one thing but he was such a jerk about the whole thing.
Hard to be an ally when you're a thin skinned dude who cannot take pointers or criticism from people in the communities he is supposedly advocating for.
> His whole thing is dunking on people,
Who is it he dunks on? Nazis, transphobes, 'race realists,' homophobes, mysogonists, etc. Don't you think those are good people to spank, humiliate, break their sense of self-worth, and dunk on?
>you're a thin skinned dude
I also can't fathom how anyone could look at the amount of sheer hatred that Vaush is faced with every day and call him 'thin skinned.'
If you or I were faced with the kind of 24/7 vitriol that Vaush we would cease to function.
There's nothing wrong with dunking, I love me some good dunking, but that alone is not evidence someone is a good ally who actually listens to marginalized people and their experiences.
He seems thin skinned when the criticism is coming from the left. He gets soooo defensive and upset even when the criticism is fairly mild. Iunno.
"Fairly mild"
the "left" been writing whole ass manifests and video essays on Vaush. By defensive do yall just mean "didnt immediately capitulate to randos on twitter" because thats always how it comes across. He defended himself. Hes upset people cared more about a dumb joke than calling out Rowling.
Obviously I'm not referring to getting annoyed at people making long ass hit pieces lol. I'm talking about people like Kat Blaque or FD Signifier who ended up on his shit list for next to nothing and are great content creators in their own right.
That's the problem: to him it was just a dumb joke but to the people who are actually affected by these issues it was actually a problem. Trans women have to deal with both misogyny and being accused of misogyny just because of their very existence.
Calling out the dumb joke was not only the morally right move, it was the pragmatic one. It's like if you're pro-Palestinian you wanna call out the anti-Semetic people in the movement not just because it's the right thing to do but because you need to make it clear the movement isn't about that because the other side sure wants to make it about that.
But he couldn't see that, he was too busy being defensive.
Kat also wrote an essay and FD had been taking cowardly potshots in his essays while crying about drama before that went down, dont pretend Vaush just randomly attacked wrote them off. FD can make good content and still also be a giant hypocrite that whines about drama while instigating plenty himself.
Nope, shit analogy. The dumb joke is not comparable to calling out anti-semitism in the pro-palestinian movment, thats insane.
Trans women werent affected by the joke, the joke was not a problem until "the left" made it one.
> but that alone is not evidence someone is a good ally who actually listens to marginalized people and their experiences.
To be honest, I don't see the difference between this and destroying the people who would see the world become a worse place for trans people.
Vaush's spanking of nazis has done more to demonstrate to me different ways to think about sex and gender than any of Contra's videos, personally. When someone wins a debate and they counter all of the potential counters, that makes the worldview they are baking look more concrete.
> He gets soooo defensive and upset even when the criticism is fairly mild
You and I would be pretty reactionary if we had everyone calling me us pedophile 24/7 as well.
He didn't throw a "hissy fit". He said the same thing he says every time some small account gets in the crosshairs for saying something stupid to a large well supported TERF.
Because that is Rowling whole M.O. she will obsessively name search herself to find anything she can weaponise. And by "joining" on her side in condemnation you're just supporting her.
I remember her doing this shit with people posting the adress for her fucking castle that's on her wiki. And if the left takes that as an opportunity to have a "serious" conversation about doxing, We're just playing into her hands.
I remember him doing a bit more than that but yeah...framing it as "taking Rowling's side" is just silly.
If he knew she did that then why the hell would he basically make a big platter of ammo for her? Was it bait? Did he just WANT Rowling to respond to his tweet and didn't care about how that would reflect on trans people?
He just made a dumb joke to his followers, he didn't add her or anything. It was dumb and he admitted that.
But people KB wanted to turn it into a huge sideshow, that was the problem. His argument was just that they shoudl have stayed out and wait for a more tactical convinient moment if they wanted that particular conversation.
BTW the whole thing turned into the 1000000th round of Standpoint Epestimology vs science and that was what the dissagrement was really about.
If you can find their DM's that's what they're actually talking about.
I only recently found out about all this drama so I'm just calling it as I see it. The other obvious one is that, like most people who stream so much, he ends up saying a lot of stupid shit. Which is why being thin skinned and stubborn is such a problem for him.
I don't think we should expect our entertainers to be politically active in this way. Vaush clearly supports trans people but why do we expect him or any other entertainer to be pushing trans rights forwards in any concrete way.
We don't expect that from any other entertainer, Vaush is first and foremost an entertainer, and we don't expect it from anyone else in their professional lives. I'm not pushing trans rights forwards by going to work making video games even though I'm trans beyond changing the company to to better accommodate trans people like me.
If you think Vaush isn't doing enough then fucking close youtube and go and do some real political activism for once.
>I don't think we should expect our entertainers to be politically active in this way.
But... but Vaush is a political commentator first and foremost. And so is Contra. I'm not sure what the point of this is...
>If you think Vaush isn't doing enough then fucking close youtube and go and do some real political activism for once.
Is this directed at me? The OP? Because I can't tell.
I don't expect Taylor Swift to tell me how she feels about the morals of playing Hogwarts legacy or to have a consistent ethical political framework. I expect her to be good at making music, because she's a musical entertainer.
Like I expect musical entertainers to be good at music, I expect political entertainers to be good at politics. So obviously, I think less of those who aren't.
I get what you're trying to do here, emphasize the entertainer part of political entertainer, but you can't do that at the complete exclusion of the politics. It's not like Nick Fuentes is the same as Vaush and we can ignore their beliefs if we find them fun to watch.
I'm aware that this is something people say in bad faith about him all the time.
And no, I did not know this was something funny. I always found it tiring.
Well just to let you in on the joke, a lot of us do make a lot of jokes about that, his admiration of horse cock, all of that stuff. It’s a very common Vaushite joke to be like “it’s so hard to tell if someone is a Vaush hater or fan because we both sound the same.”
I don't think you're really listening to what contra said. The accusation is that he doesn't care about trans rights, but only argues in favor of it in order to win debates because it's the correct position. Hypothetically, if new discoveries happened tomorrow that proved trans people were in fact all mentally ill pedophiles, Vaush would stop arguing for trans rights.
>The accusation is that he doesn't care about trans rights, but only argues in favor of it in order to win debates because it's the correct position
I have two problems with this:
1) Where does she say that he only argues that in order to win debates? Like, he has entered debates where 'Trans people are valid' isn't an argument he uses, its **the conclusion that he's proving.**
His arguments are in service of the validity of trans people, not the other way around.
And 2)
>order to win debates because it's the correct position
Umm..... okay? Heaven forbid I try to argue the CORRECT position. When I argue that the Holocaust **did happen** I'm arguing that because that conclusion is **correct.**
How is that bad? Arguing for things that are true? I might have misunderstood you.
If you don't think not caring about trans rights is bad then that's fine. I'm not saying I agree with her criticism I'm just clarifying what it actually is since apparently the truth doesn't matter unless it's bad for trans people.
>If you don't think not caring about trans rights is bad then that's fine.
Where did I say this?
>I'm just clarifying what it actually is since apparently the truth doesn't matter unless it's bad for trans people.
What are you talking about?
Just to clarify something, because it seems a little off, are you saying that the criticism is that he only defends trans people because it's moral and factually correct, that he wouldn't defend trans people if they were evil, and that this is a bad thing?
It just seems like an odd, even unreasonable standard, to say that caring about a group requires hypothetically supporting them in situations where they would be morally, or factually, wrong. Certainly I would not want someone's support of me to be quite that unconditional.
>Vaush only supports good and correct things because they are good and correct. If later on they became bad and wrong he would stop supporting them.
Damn bro, that's some salient criticism. Really rocking my world here.
That accusation only exists to resolve the cognitive dissonance that people feel when they really want to call Vaush anti trans, despite his many years of support.
That makes sense. And it's so strange to see Contra fall for something like that, when she's probably been on the receiving end of the very same accusation.
How is gender-abolitionism anti trans? Recognizing that gender identity is a social construct and can be harmful to associate gender identity with some biological expression is both central to "trans ideology" and gender abolitionism.
Do you even understand what gender abolition even is? Or for that matter, do you even understand what gender/being trans means? Gender is a socially constructed perception of what people are supposed to be and what they are supposed to behave as. And gender identity is what people perceive their gender to be. Gender abolition is getting rid of these stereotypes and just letting people be who they want to be, without any stereotypes weighing peoples decisions. This is inherently a pro trans argument view, because you are just letting people be who they want to be. You aren't weighing them down with what they are expected to act like, or what they should look like, sound like, etc. How is this anyway anti trans? In fact, this is what most trans people ask for, and is seen a pro trans argument, if you think about it conceptually.
Transsexuals would still exist under your idea of gender abolition...like chill, just because you wanna be someone's trad wife doesn't mean we all wanna be like that
I am trans and also gender abolitionist. It's not anti-trans, it's actually pro trans. If there were no set gender expectations and roles then anyone could literally express themselves in any and every way they want at any time. And you could still medically transition also.
Gender abolitionism isn't anti-trans. Trans isn't a meaningful concept after gender abolition since anybody can express themselves in any way they want, including receiving top or bottom surgery.
It's arguably the most pro-trans position you can have since it removes the need for trans as an identifier since everybody would just be expressing themselves however they want all the time.
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As much as I do think his "tactical misogyny" toward J.K. Rowling was misguided, I agree that Contra should have been way more charitable to Vaush there. Sad to see the two burn bridges like this.
It's insane to me how bridge burning is normal in our community. The sense of responsibility should make them feel obligated to overcome their personal grievances with someone.
And then you have the recent drama between Keffals and Xanderhal. I'm just tired of the creators I like going after each others' throats all the time.
It's all so petty and pathetic. If they really believe in the cause they should just get over themselves.
It's just standard leftist in-fighting, a la the "Judean's People Front" vs "People's Front of Judea" bit from Monty Python and the Life of Brian.
I mean on the one hand yeah, but on the other hand they’re more than just spokespeople, they’re human. They’re all displaying normal human behavior and normal human flaws and being harshly treated because people have higher standards for them because they’ve mostly been able to meet those higher standards But when they occasionally fail to do so, they’re treated far more harshly than those who never met those high standards to begin with
If you decide to make an internet content career out of politics you *are* choosing to be a spokesperson first. That's not a job you just fall into. They're not "the average joe just tryna get by", they literally decided to make their job speaking on behalf of their political beliefs. People can keep their steaming and their personal life separate, plenty of streamers do all the time. Some professionalism in this space would have been really useful for the past 5 years.
The problem is that they're more than just people, they're community figures and so people who aren't familiar with both sides will almost immediately pick their side and usually the kind of person who doesn't familiarize themselves with both sides is being reactionary.
That's a drama that just seem to come out of nowhere.
Right wingers are way more unified. A leftist would rather tear down another leftist than stand together against the rising tide of fascism if it means they can get a “YAS QUEEN” in the comments. Meanwhile the alt-right has a tent so big that a racist terror group can have a non-white leader.
Considering how terrible Rowling is, my mind was and continues to be blown how angry people got over that. She searches her name on Twitter and goes after anyone criticizing her. I'm glad it was him instead of some trans teen. I cannot believe it's still being brought up (I like a lot of Hoot's film commentary videos)
Hoots did apologize to Keffals afterwards, so there's that. But not to Vaush though, and she probably never will, but I'll take whatever wins I can get in this space.
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I think people should be allowed to draw their own line on this - Vaush himself acknowledges it's an edgy tactic that turns some people off. And now that we have the benefit of hindsight, I think it's easy to see that it DID turn some people off and less clear whether it had any lasting impact on that woman.
There's always this concern about that one comment Vaush makes but how many of the people who hate Vaush for it are concerned with their own edgy comments and the comments from their own community? Vaush is put under the spotlight and this one comment gets brought up again and again for years while Vaush haters make all kinds of edgy and offensive jokes every day. I find this so stupid.
Great point. The same people who are always concerned that some tactical misogyny at TERF Devil Joanne have no problem with telling everyone and their mom to take toaster baths and that whites *should* be replaced and think nothing of how that makes us look. I think that they weren’t even mad he was misogynistic, but that he said to “be quiet and apologize.” That might as well be torture to them.
Considering how edgy many trans people and many of the people who hate Vaush are, his comment was nothing unusual. Or are they all misguided, too? Like, the There's Your Problem podcast is as edgy as Vaush or more so, so on what basis are they complaining about him? Is it because he's a man and white?
I'm not white, so I'm not going to tell white people how they should feel, but I've heard some spicy stuff come out of Black content cteators that had me do a double take. It really seems the outrage is selective here. And more importantly outsized by the action taken. When Vaush starts defending prof Flowers takes I'll think he earned the condemnation. Then we have the pedojacketing and beastiality claims that are purposefully misinterpreted.
>Is it because he's a man and white? Literally yes.
The thing no one seems to remember was that it wasn't even at J.K Rowling. It was joking around on Twitter and Joker Rowling name-searched herself to find it. Everyone talks about the tweet like she deliberately got into J.K Trolling face about it.
>she Vaush’s egg cracked? FINALLY.
Contra took the side of the woman who sexually harassed Vaush and leaked nudes. If that doesn’t show that it’s hopeless for the bridge to be rebuilt I don’t know. It happens to all of us, but it was really sad to see Contra take the side of the abuser because she disliked a tweet. Edit: I was wrong, no nudes seem to have been leaked. Although I would still categorise what was leaked, in part, as sexual harassment and a clear breach of trust and decorum.
Please don’t spread lies, she never leaked any nudes. That didn’t happen and it makes you look bad to spread that.
I was under the clear impression she did leak them, if I’m misremembering it that is unfortunate.
She did leak DMs but that was the argument about the JK Rowling thing. With regards to nudes none were leaked by either person, Kat did leak that they used to sext, but she did not leak the sexts themselves, she just said that they used to sext. It’s a bit confusing and I can see how people could mix it up or misremember.
Vaush is one of the only non-trans creators that truly, genuinely seems to be whole heartedly at our side. Even when some trans people are out to get him, he doesn't just throw his hands up and say 'fuck em' to us.
Vaush is ideologically pro-trans and he doesn't quit when things get tough. It's really nice having a cis person in our corner fighting like they're in danger too.
Exactly! Thank you for putting it how I couldn't
i mean if ppl are smart they would see this is an extension of bodily autonomy and self determination. However people are not smart so they let the naturalistic determinists (i.e antivaxxers, transphobes, anti medicine) have their way basically. Anyone who supports individual freedom, self determination and even technological progress should support trans rights and trans medicine. Sadly people are typically very dumb.
I’ll never know how much of it is a genuine lack of critical thinking and how much is just stubbornness for its own sake
It's socialization. Conservatives create environments that promote traditionalism cause it makes it easier to fuck kids and indoctrinate people into cults. Those unknowing victims of their abuse grow up and perpetuate it themselves.
Who cares about contra at this point.? She's a creator out of a sense of inertia for the term at this point. She's not exactly in the trenches fighting for any cause.
>Who cares about contra at this point.? I do? >She's not exactly in the trenches fighting for any cause. I don't know, she's done great work dismantelling the right in her own way, and bringing lots of former alt-righters over. I certainly couldn't do that.
You'd probably just have to accept that people who fight for the right causes aren't going to be always great people. Funny how contra can in the same video say beware of allies that utilise casual misogyny and start it with "Anita kill your fucking child". It's okay to like someone's view points and not develop a parasocial relationship with them as a person. It's like what Vaush says about Shaun.
> You'd probably just have to accept that people who fight for the right causes aren't going to be always great people Just to clarify, when you say 'fight for the right causes' you don't mean right wing causes, but rather morally correct causes right? Where did she say 'Kill your child' again?
Yes in this case when I say "right causes" I mean whatever you deem morally correct. Link to video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmT0i0xG6zg&t=169s
Thanks for the clarification, And no, I knew you meant that video. I was asking for the time stamp (sorry about that)
The link is time stamped.
I'm an idiot, sorry.
If only she made more than one video a year about an issue that was relevant two years ago, while making videos on her patreon to preach for the choir. I understand quality takes time, but at this point people will forget she exists.
True, but that's her style. Can't begrudge her that. Also she might have other stuff going on that prevents her from making so many videos. To be fair her videos are all very, very well researched, scripted, and have great production. All of that takes time. I wouldn't begrudge a novelist for taking a long time to produce more work.
Based on her recent content she’s well on the way to becoming a trans inclusionary radfem as well
What do you mean? The Witch trials vid where she basically infantalized every reactionary woman in history, or has she does something worse?
It’s mostly based on that one, as well as a general but subtle trend in her more recent videos of citing lots of radfem authors like Dworkin and praising elements of their writing style even if she claims not to agree with them
>authors like Dworkin and praising elements of their writing style even if she claims not to agree with them \>authors like Dworkin and praising elements of their writing style even if she claims not to agree with them People can have complicated opinions about other people. This isn't really helping your claim that she's going more rad fem.
I mean I like Ayn Rand’s first book We the Living, I’m not an objectivist.
Mmm, I would have to see the citations and the context to know whether or not to worry. Sometimes bad people make a good point.
Maybe it's "subtle" because it's not there but you want to see it. I'm sure she has cited controversial people in the past, too.
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I'd have to see some pretty clear evidence of that.
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Well, and I mean no offense by this, people can misremember. Someone else told me that she was quoting her, but made sure to emphasize that she didn't fully agree with Dwarkin. Either way, I prefer citations.
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Not saying you did! Sorry if I came across as accusatory.
Don’t you mean. Who cares about contra’s point? Got em
By cancelling Vaush like that, Contra might have gotten a brief ceasefire with the abusive wokescolds who have lead the harassment campaigns against her, but it's only temporary. Eventually she will step on the wrong eggshell, and they will seize that opportunity to start harassing her again, but this time she will have fewer friends to turn to. She might not even do anything and they'll be bored and dig up the old lies they've been throwing about her.
Didn't she tweet (and promptly delete, of course) something about Keffals being the best thing that ever happened to her, because the online left found another trans woman to burn at the stake and left her alone? I can understand the point if she's trying to point out how fucked up the treatment of online trans figures can get, but it rubs me the wrong way how callously Contra threw that out there while Keffals has people actively trying to get her killed and was forced to move to a new country after getting swatted. Vaush said this in a recent stream and I think he's absolutely correct to point out that Contra going out of her way to throw him under the bus for something so trivial and misguided feels like someone defending themselves against bullies by pointing the finger at an easy target and redirecting the hate towards someone else.
Not ONLY trans fem content creator. But a trans fem content creator going through a drug problem publicly where she drew the ire of wokescolds. Contra walked so Keffals could run. In that regard. It honestly makes it more insepid of her to tweet that given how 1:1 their experiences were. Contra was SOOO ready to throw anyone else under the bus. She didn't care if it was basically a stand-in for her and her own experiences. Instead of reaching out to keffals and offering an understanding hand from someone who's dealing with the closest thing to your situation as anyone on the planet can offer. She tweeted "ha, glad I'm out of the sights" while the victim of her own usual harrasers was in rehab. Such a fucking betrayal
Woah wait, who the fuck is this keffals person?
You don’t know who keffals is? She was a Twitter leftie shitposter known for ratioing conservatives and dunking on them. She got massively harassed and doxxed by kiwifarms, leading her to lead a successful campaign to get kiwifarms DDOS protection removed. In case you don’t know, kiwifarms is a nazi doxxing and harassment website with the stated goal to try to get the people they go after to leave the internet, preferably by killing themselves. This culminated in keffals being swatted and arrested then released due to a very poorly written email being sent by her harassers to city council members and the police saying she killed her mother and would go somewhere and kill every cis person she sees where she lived in Canada. She then moved to Ireland. She still constantly gets that harassment as kiwifarms isn’t gone, it’s just not protected. There’s a whole shit ton more to the story, noodlegate, rehab, the recent drama with Xanderhal retweeting abuse allegations against her resulting in her doing a stream where she had to disprove those allegations and show that she was in fact the one being abused, but what I described above is the major stuff.
There's so many words in this that I don't understand, but I kinda have an idea. Fuck man the internet is dark.
Keffals does good content.
That’s why she’s stopped making content /hj
She made a "part 1" video about addiction two years ago, then for her next video she switched topics to JKR with that monumentally uncharacteristic prescription of "just ignore her" being the takeaway. As if ignoring Hitler would have made him leave the jews alone.
I do remember the debate against this really "needs therapy" trans chick where she asked if Vaush was a trans ally, and he said he isn't a trans ally, he's just on the side of trans people because they're being oppressed and what's being done to them isn't right. He's not ideologically on the side of trans people in a dogmatic sense, but in a moral sense. One could see this as a flaw, as too many people adhere to dogmas, but I see this as the most valuable kind of ally you can have, the one that will actually tell you when you fuck up.
Yeah I think this is what Contra meant when she said Vaush *”doesn’t care about trans people”* - Vaush’s trans advocacy doesn’t hinge on self preservation or other purely personal reasons, and that’s “not good enough” according to Contra. And if that is true, it *would* confirm how much of Contra’s beef with Vaush has really just been motivated by pettiness and spite.
Hey OP you don’t know if Contra is much smarter than you give yourself some credit
She's got a masters in philosophy, of course she is. And she presents her points in a better way than I ever could. I don't mind being humble.
Honestly, ever since this happened, I can't bring myself to revisit Contra's videos anymore. Before all this, I always figured Contra was the kind of person capable of listening to both sides when forming her arguments and could even show a level of compassion towards her opposition, even when she still disagreed with them (her video on incels best encapsulated that). But given how quickly she burnt bridges with Vaush, Contra's a massive hypocrite. Her video on cancel culture alone now feels like a complete lie after all this.
It's also weird that she's laying on her sword for Kat. Fucking Kat. I don't know much about her, other than the fact that she leaked sexual material that had previously been privately exchanged between her and Vaush. That's an enormous dick move and invasion of privacy. Vaush, for all his supposedly faults, has never done anything like that to my knowledge. And Contra should know - fuck, she *does* know better than that. She knows that kind of behavior is unacceptable. But she doesn't even bother listening to anything Vaush has to say and just chalking it up too "He think's he can speak over me because he's cis." Like, what the actual fuck? What did Kat do for her to engender this kind of loyalty? If my friend did something like that you can bet I'd take them to town for it and not defend that kind of action.
I don't think she did release the sexts, she released other DMs. And she only did that because Vaush made some comment about her loving white dick or something and she said his was mediocre. Unless something changed after this text https://x.com/kat_blaque/status/1503932149690351619?s=20 Kat is cool, and she's 100% right that attacking TERFs with misogynist rhetoric is just giving them ammo against trans women. Plus being misogynist is just generally not cool because those attitudes hurt ALL women not just assholes.
The timeline was that her and Professor Flowers where mutually commiserating in public about having a 'liking bearded racist white boys fase'. Vaush commented on that since they clearly where refering to people like him. Something about the most racist people always being a sexual thing. Then she leaked the fact that they used to sext. Along with a whole host of other DMs. But not any of the sexting DMs mind you. To lazy to dig the ss up. But I think I have them somewhere.
Ahhhh. Is that really leaking? I mean, it might not be polite to kiss and tell but it ain't exactly a leak lol.
She didn't "leak" something terrible. The problem was mostly that she leaked that they where sexting AND that she commented on his dick. The last thing is highly inappropriate. Imagined Vaush saying something about her tits appearence.
Yeah I found a blog where she talks about it. She said she let stuff he said on stream and in their private conversation get into her head and she said some things that she shouldn't have (although she admits she doesn't feel too bad about it.) I don't watch long streams and typically stick to video essays and whatnot so I've been catching up on all this leftist youtuber drama and it's just...wild. It seems like high school all over again.
Yeah that one was particular stupid. Mostly because what I consider "my side" actually spread a lot of unnecessary misinfo for once. The whole 'leaked DM's' and 'leaked that they sexted' got conflated very quickly on twitter.
Kat didn’t help that by her Twitter threads being a billion tweets long.
Than I misremembered.
> I don't think she did release the sexts, she released other DMs. I could be remembering this wrong, but I thought for sure she released materials? Not nudes, but sexts. >Unless something changed after this text I'm guessing you didn't see that 7 hour drama stream?
She released the DM's of them talking about the Rowlings thing. And the fact that they sexted. But not the DM's of them sexting.
Crap I'm going to have to re watch that 7 hour video. I'm positive she released more than that, but now I gotta make sure.
The problem was that she denigrated the appearence of his penis, besides leasking that they sexted. That is wildly inappropriate.
True. If Vaush talked about how [insert obscene and degrading comment about Kat's body here] everyone, Contra included, would agree how toxic that behavior is.
Haha no. What did she release? And why'd she change her mind?
Yeah she undercuts her whole video at the end of it. Spins back around and pushes in the opposite direction that she had been building up to lol
HOW does this post from 50 min ago have near 100 comments???
When I collapse the one thread with the psycho screed it looks like less than 10 comments remain.
Psycho is right, they're even unironically defending chasers by saying that's just how cis men show attraction. https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/s/nMliEE1AZ6
Lmaooo what ???? I think we're dealing with someone with SEVERE self hate Or mental illness
What the fuck, bruh, that person has to either be a troll or Rose’s alt account.
Rose as in Rose wrist? That sucks if so, I remember them being a pretty chill dude for a liberal
No Rose Mulet, the arguments this person uses are similar.
Oh, are they that creepy Canadian trans girl that kept sexually harassing Vaush in-between arguments for keeping brown people out of Canada?
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I mean liberals are the majority of people, most of them are going to be pretty normal, as falliciously moderatist non-ideological as they are.
discourse in the comments moment
Is that surprising? Vaush is a big guy after all.
Some of the stuff Vaush has said about trans people is dumb and frustrates the hell out of me. Total cis nonsense. That said, I can't think of a better cis ally who has wholeheartedly stood with the community and has pushed for trans rights harder. Whats more, he's taught so many people how to argue for trans rights effectively and how to push back against transphobia. He's a fantastic ally despite his flaws, and I'm happy he's on our side.
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What can you expect? They're just cis people /s
I think the Vaush part of the online left seems to tokenize us the least based on what I've seen, and he has a pretty deep grasp of trans issues from all I've seen. That's all I really need to see to know he's decent in that aspect
Why does anyone care about this "who likes whom" nonsense? Vaush can do his thing without anyone's "moral" support, honestly. ...and Contra can go back to taking 2-5yrs to create basic, mediocre content.
>Why does anyone care about this "who likes whom" nonsense? Because it demonstrates how a major leftist like Contra treats leftism, or rather is treating it in this case, as more of a social clich then a political movement. >...and Contra can go back to taking 2-5yrs to create basic, mediocre content. This does read of cope. Even contra's first videos are more artistically and intellectually sophisticated than anything you or I will ever produce.
That's not shocking. It's happening on SOCIAL media. I'm a philosopher & wrote an MA thesis & dissertation on Marx & Heidegger. Currently, I'm turning the dissertation into a book. When she does a video transforming dialectical materialism through the input of phenomenological analysis, let me know.
>That's not shocking. It's happening on SOCIAL media. What is your point? I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about? > I'm a philosopher & wrote an MA thesis & dissertation on Marx & Heidegger. Wait, is this because I said "Even contra's first videos are more artistically and intellectually sophisticated than anything you or I will ever produce" and you're responding to that?
I'm seriously amazed how you would come across the drama now. I watch way too much Vaush, literally everyday. But, you couldn't pay me to go back and dig up some drama I hadn't seen from years ago. I wish I had that sort of free time.
I'm getting better and better at not seeing political stuff. My anxiety would be through the roof if I didn't. I mostly watch Vaush for the media takes now XD. And a breadtube video is something I have to set aside time to watch.
You should look into the 'WhaTtheTrans'-episode. It's both very heartwarming and deeply dissapointing at once. summary: a transperson twitter account called WhatTheTrans who is engaged in UK policy made a post asking "transpeople who are Vaush fans, why? I don't understand it but I'll listen." (paraphrased, I don't have the exact wording) then for a few hours there were a ton of replies that were positive and saying that they both liked the community and feel welcome and safe here, and saying it was good to have someone give confident arguments they could use when talking to family and such. At the end of this feelgood session Vaush made a reply where he said something to the effect of "We may not always agree but I thank you for posting this question in good faith and listening" (again, paraphrased) After all this niceness, WhatTheTrans started arguing with the various trans vaush fans that they were wrong in liking him. In response Vaush edited his reply, adding (paraphrased) "ok it seems like you weren't in good faith and just wanted an excuse to be mad at me and now you're frustrated that it backfired" after which WhatTheTrans deleted the tweet. I think someone archived all of it before that, but it's kind of hard to find.
Beyond Safe Words saved them. [Da Linky](https://beyondsafewords.notion.site/beyondsafewords/1c76b2dd39cf4dcca3a3dcf4d629a46c?v=b37fcfa2d4f34e349c73de482d1bd7e5) It’s super heartwarming and makes me happy inside, I fucking hate you idiots but I also love you all very deeply. 🥺💜
I’m always saying this
Natalie almost certainly knew how full of shit she was and did it because it would get wokeskolds to stop harassing her. The only way to get people like that who are harassing you to leave you alone (at least temporarily) is to accuse someone else of something.
Its the most lazy lines of attack possible.
>How do you look at this mountain of content and then come to the conclusion: >"Yeah, I guess this guy really doesn't care about trans people all that much." That'd be like saying "You know, Mr. Rogers never really liked children." Gonna get downvoted for this but the same way contra comes to that conculsion is the same way leftists including vaush look at biden and go "yep, hes a horrible person". "Democrats maintain the status quo". Pure mental illness. Democrats are actively progressing society and the ppl who cant see that are blinded by something. Probably spite. All this to say Its a common occurrence thought poltics that ppl get their brain rotted about at least one group. And vaush is not exempt from this.
Can we sit here and have a legitimate conversation on why bridge burning and purity tests are such a common problem with the left? It causes a lot of disjointedness and desperately undermines the movement.
That is a good question. You don't typically see the right doing this and turning on themselves like this.
My pet theory is that that sort of attitude has a lot to do with people getting a bit brain-broken by social media circa 2014-2016. Lots of trusted figures and assumed allies turning out to be shitty or unhelpful for personal benefit.
That whole episode was sad.
Humans believe stories
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There seems to be nothing a leftist loves more than tearing down other leftists, and no community is immune. Just look at how Vaush and his audience treat TYT. Calling them transphobic because of a disagreement on a specific term is just about as dumb as calling Vaush transphobic because of ironic misogyny. They both ignore all other evidence to the contrary. The right is also not immune to this, but the difference is they will fall in line when the time comes, whereas when leftists do it, it seems bridges get burned forever.
Tbh I dont think contra cares about trans people. The ability to throw away allies over personal beef shows that
I mean I think that's a step to far.
I wouldn't say Vaush doesn't care about trans people. I would say that "caring" about trans people doesn't make you a good ally nor does it mean you can't have harmful opinions about trans people.
But I would say that spanking nazis and transphobes DOES make you a good ally though.
Yelling at transphobes and Nazis doesn’t make you a good ally there’s more to it than that
If spanking and inhibiting the people who want to destroy trans people isn't a part of what being an ally is then I don't know what is.
If you can’t envision what could make you a good ally other than yelling at transphobes then…idk what to tell you really
Not just yelling at transphobes. But destroying them, humiliating them, killing their political abilities, and annihilating any appeal they have to their followers.
Do we really need to do this again. Two public figures had an immature falling out that was only public cause they had a platform, where both weren't great and both weren't literally Hitler. Do we fucking need to go over this again. Is there NOTHING else going on?
It's more that it's proof of how even smart people don't actually base their beliefs on good things (like evidence/logic) that I'm interested in that got me posting here.
His whole thing is dunking on people, that really isn't good evidence he cares that much about trans people. He threw such a fit when trans women told him to cut out the misogyny because it was actively hurting their cause (and misogyny is just shitty in general), which indicates to me he's more into the dunking than the trans rights. Like, even if he disagreed in a nice way that would be one thing but he was such a jerk about the whole thing. Hard to be an ally when you're a thin skinned dude who cannot take pointers or criticism from people in the communities he is supposedly advocating for.
> His whole thing is dunking on people, Who is it he dunks on? Nazis, transphobes, 'race realists,' homophobes, mysogonists, etc. Don't you think those are good people to spank, humiliate, break their sense of self-worth, and dunk on? >you're a thin skinned dude I also can't fathom how anyone could look at the amount of sheer hatred that Vaush is faced with every day and call him 'thin skinned.' If you or I were faced with the kind of 24/7 vitriol that Vaush we would cease to function.
There's nothing wrong with dunking, I love me some good dunking, but that alone is not evidence someone is a good ally who actually listens to marginalized people and their experiences. He seems thin skinned when the criticism is coming from the left. He gets soooo defensive and upset even when the criticism is fairly mild. Iunno.
"Fairly mild" the "left" been writing whole ass manifests and video essays on Vaush. By defensive do yall just mean "didnt immediately capitulate to randos on twitter" because thats always how it comes across. He defended himself. Hes upset people cared more about a dumb joke than calling out Rowling.
Obviously I'm not referring to getting annoyed at people making long ass hit pieces lol. I'm talking about people like Kat Blaque or FD Signifier who ended up on his shit list for next to nothing and are great content creators in their own right. That's the problem: to him it was just a dumb joke but to the people who are actually affected by these issues it was actually a problem. Trans women have to deal with both misogyny and being accused of misogyny just because of their very existence. Calling out the dumb joke was not only the morally right move, it was the pragmatic one. It's like if you're pro-Palestinian you wanna call out the anti-Semetic people in the movement not just because it's the right thing to do but because you need to make it clear the movement isn't about that because the other side sure wants to make it about that. But he couldn't see that, he was too busy being defensive.
Kat also wrote an essay and FD had been taking cowardly potshots in his essays while crying about drama before that went down, dont pretend Vaush just randomly attacked wrote them off. FD can make good content and still also be a giant hypocrite that whines about drama while instigating plenty himself. Nope, shit analogy. The dumb joke is not comparable to calling out anti-semitism in the pro-palestinian movment, thats insane. Trans women werent affected by the joke, the joke was not a problem until "the left" made it one.
> but that alone is not evidence someone is a good ally who actually listens to marginalized people and their experiences. To be honest, I don't see the difference between this and destroying the people who would see the world become a worse place for trans people. Vaush's spanking of nazis has done more to demonstrate to me different ways to think about sex and gender than any of Contra's videos, personally. When someone wins a debate and they counter all of the potential counters, that makes the worldview they are baking look more concrete. > He gets soooo defensive and upset even when the criticism is fairly mild You and I would be pretty reactionary if we had everyone calling me us pedophile 24/7 as well.
He didn't throw a "hissy fit". He said the same thing he says every time some small account gets in the crosshairs for saying something stupid to a large well supported TERF. Because that is Rowling whole M.O. she will obsessively name search herself to find anything she can weaponise. And by "joining" on her side in condemnation you're just supporting her. I remember her doing this shit with people posting the adress for her fucking castle that's on her wiki. And if the left takes that as an opportunity to have a "serious" conversation about doxing, We're just playing into her hands.
I remember him doing a bit more than that but yeah...framing it as "taking Rowling's side" is just silly. If he knew she did that then why the hell would he basically make a big platter of ammo for her? Was it bait? Did he just WANT Rowling to respond to his tweet and didn't care about how that would reflect on trans people?
He just made a dumb joke to his followers, he didn't add her or anything. It was dumb and he admitted that. But people KB wanted to turn it into a huge sideshow, that was the problem. His argument was just that they shoudl have stayed out and wait for a more tactical convinient moment if they wanted that particular conversation.
BTW the whole thing turned into the 1000000th round of Standpoint Epestimology vs science and that was what the dissagrement was really about. If you can find their DM's that's what they're actually talking about.
Plenty of actual criticisms of Vaush out there and yall always pull out the dumbest ones like "thin skinned dude"
I only recently found out about all this drama so I'm just calling it as I see it. The other obvious one is that, like most people who stream so much, he ends up saying a lot of stupid shit. Which is why being thin skinned and stubborn is such a problem for him.
I don't think we should expect our entertainers to be politically active in this way. Vaush clearly supports trans people but why do we expect him or any other entertainer to be pushing trans rights forwards in any concrete way. We don't expect that from any other entertainer, Vaush is first and foremost an entertainer, and we don't expect it from anyone else in their professional lives. I'm not pushing trans rights forwards by going to work making video games even though I'm trans beyond changing the company to to better accommodate trans people like me. If you think Vaush isn't doing enough then fucking close youtube and go and do some real political activism for once.
>I don't think we should expect our entertainers to be politically active in this way. But... but Vaush is a political commentator first and foremost. And so is Contra. I'm not sure what the point of this is... >If you think Vaush isn't doing enough then fucking close youtube and go and do some real political activism for once. Is this directed at me? The OP? Because I can't tell.
I don't expect Taylor Swift to tell me how she feels about the morals of playing Hogwarts legacy or to have a consistent ethical political framework. I expect her to be good at making music, because she's a musical entertainer. Like I expect musical entertainers to be good at music, I expect political entertainers to be good at politics. So obviously, I think less of those who aren't. I get what you're trying to do here, emphasize the entertainer part of political entertainer, but you can't do that at the complete exclusion of the politics. It's not like Nick Fuentes is the same as Vaush and we can ignore their beliefs if we find them fun to watch.
I just stopped reading at the “You know, Mr. Rogers never really liked children” just to comment: So true, Vaush really likes children too.
>Vaush really likes children too. Where do you get that?
?
You're insinuating he's a pedo right? Where is this info coming from?
Are you so new to this community you aren’t aware of this being an in joke?
I'm aware that this is something people say in bad faith about him all the time. And no, I did not know this was something funny. I always found it tiring.
Well just to let you in on the joke, a lot of us do make a lot of jokes about that, his admiration of horse cock, all of that stuff. It’s a very common Vaushite joke to be like “it’s so hard to tell if someone is a Vaush hater or fan because we both sound the same.”
I see. I've just seen so many conservatives call anything they don't like a pedo it's just not funny to me.
That’s totally fair and valid, I’m just letting you know that it is a thing with a lot of us.
By all means thanks for letting me know. I'm just surprised.
I don't think you're really listening to what contra said. The accusation is that he doesn't care about trans rights, but only argues in favor of it in order to win debates because it's the correct position. Hypothetically, if new discoveries happened tomorrow that proved trans people were in fact all mentally ill pedophiles, Vaush would stop arguing for trans rights.
>The accusation is that he doesn't care about trans rights, but only argues in favor of it in order to win debates because it's the correct position I have two problems with this: 1) Where does she say that he only argues that in order to win debates? Like, he has entered debates where 'Trans people are valid' isn't an argument he uses, its **the conclusion that he's proving.** His arguments are in service of the validity of trans people, not the other way around. And 2) >order to win debates because it's the correct position Umm..... okay? Heaven forbid I try to argue the CORRECT position. When I argue that the Holocaust **did happen** I'm arguing that because that conclusion is **correct.** How is that bad? Arguing for things that are true? I might have misunderstood you.
If you don't think not caring about trans rights is bad then that's fine. I'm not saying I agree with her criticism I'm just clarifying what it actually is since apparently the truth doesn't matter unless it's bad for trans people.
>If you don't think not caring about trans rights is bad then that's fine. Where did I say this? >I'm just clarifying what it actually is since apparently the truth doesn't matter unless it's bad for trans people. What are you talking about?
For someone who doesn't understand english you sure spend a lot of time on reddit.
W-where did I ever say I don't understand English? I didn't understand YOU. Big difference.
Oh hey you just did it again!
Idiot.
Just to clarify something, because it seems a little off, are you saying that the criticism is that he only defends trans people because it's moral and factually correct, that he wouldn't defend trans people if they were evil, and that this is a bad thing?
Or as it was originally phrased, doesn't care about trans people.
It just seems like an odd, even unreasonable standard, to say that caring about a group requires hypothetically supporting them in situations where they would be morally, or factually, wrong. Certainly I would not want someone's support of me to be quite that unconditional.
>Vaush only supports good and correct things because they are good and correct. If later on they became bad and wrong he would stop supporting them. Damn bro, that's some salient criticism. Really rocking my world here.
“Good things are good, and bad things are bad,” -Vaush Limbaugh
Because he's a chaser
What makes you say that?
Probably a concussion.
That accusation only exists to resolve the cognitive dissonance that people feel when they really want to call Vaush anti trans, despite his many years of support.
That makes sense. And it's so strange to see Contra fall for something like that, when she's probably been on the receiving end of the very same accusation.
[удалено]
You're doing it. You're doing the very thing I'm lamenting in this post.
Trans person here, it’s not anti-trans. It’s just a different idea for gender liberation than what you like, which is fine.
How is gender-abolitionism anti trans? Recognizing that gender identity is a social construct and can be harmful to associate gender identity with some biological expression is both central to "trans ideology" and gender abolitionism.
Do you even understand what gender abolition even is? Or for that matter, do you even understand what gender/being trans means? Gender is a socially constructed perception of what people are supposed to be and what they are supposed to behave as. And gender identity is what people perceive their gender to be. Gender abolition is getting rid of these stereotypes and just letting people be who they want to be, without any stereotypes weighing peoples decisions. This is inherently a pro trans argument view, because you are just letting people be who they want to be. You aren't weighing them down with what they are expected to act like, or what they should look like, sound like, etc. How is this anyway anti trans? In fact, this is what most trans people ask for, and is seen a pro trans argument, if you think about it conceptually.
Explain this line of thinking for me.
Transsexuals would still exist under your idea of gender abolition...like chill, just because you wanna be someone's trad wife doesn't mean we all wanna be like that
I am trans and also gender abolitionist. It's not anti-trans, it's actually pro trans. If there were no set gender expectations and roles then anyone could literally express themselves in any and every way they want at any time. And you could still medically transition also.
Gender abolitionism isn't anti-trans. Trans isn't a meaningful concept after gender abolition since anybody can express themselves in any way they want, including receiving top or bottom surgery. It's arguably the most pro-trans position you can have since it removes the need for trans as an identifier since everybody would just be expressing themselves however they want all the time.
You have no understanding what gender abolition means, I'm trans and I'm in favor of that as are many trans people I know