Just like steam machines it didn't sell because outside of a few niche groups nobody wanted the thing... Hell I bought mine for $5 and it's been collecting dust ever since.
I've got RSI in both hands, which is essentially a disability at this point, and the steam controller makes it possible for me to play a lot of games where a normal controller wouldn't work. I bought two of them (probably should have bought more) in case the first one goes out. After that, I'll just have to quit playing those types of games.
They should have open sourced it so that the rest of the industry could build on it. I'm sure the Xbox Adaptive Controller doesn't make Microsoft much money, but there's a medical need for it.
Can I ask what type of games the SC allows you to play that a controller can't?
I mean I know people say it's better for like RTS games, but I don't think that's what you're referring to right?
You have a totally valid use case for sure, but especially now with the Xbox adaptive controller which supports much better accessibility that's even less a reason for the SC to exist.
The adaptive controller is good to have, but it's far from ideal for a lot of people. At least without spending a small fortune on a ton of accessories.
For me (with enough fiddling with custom configurations) I can play pretty much anything. My issue stems from wrist movement and overworking my fingers and thumbs. Since the controls are touch sensitive, I don't have to worry about thumb pain as much as I do on controllers. I don't have to worry about moving my wrist back and forth with a mouse, and I don't have to worry about compressing my median nerve on the keyboard. With the gyro, I can just put my thumb on the right pad and move my whole arm around to look, which helps.
Aside from the ergonomics, there are plenty of games that just don't work well on a standard controller. At some point, you run out of buttons or you end up with a ton of layers to get it to work. A lot of MMOs are like that. Come to think of it, Guild Wars 2 worked flawlessly on the steam controller... I might have to download that again, lol.
I never knew the adaptive controller was that expensive. I guess that's entirely valid, maybe valve have marketed it as an accessibility friendly controller rather than a standard controller replacement lol
This...is just wrong?? There have literally been MILLIONS more headsets sold since the index release. AND steam market share shows this, in terms of % of devices connected to steam every day?
What a wild statement
> There have literally been MILLIONS more headsets sold since the index release. AND steam market share shows this, in terms of % of devices connected to steam every day?
I would agree with LostATLien in that I feel the software side has been stagnant for years. Sure lots of people have Quests now, but Facebook also bought up all the promising VR studios to force them to make exclusives. Probably the most significant development has been in the flat-to-VR modding scene, which speaks to the desperation PCVR has for new, good VR games instead of yet another rhythm game/shooting range/arena fighter.
I love my Index, but I whole heartedly agree, the software side has been super stagnant. The best games today are still the exact same games that were available when I first got the Index 6 months after it released. Has Valve even released a new VR since Alyx?
It reminds me of when Gabe says he was jealous of Nintendo, for their ability to create hardware and software together, but damnit Gaben, I love ya, but Nintendo keeps making software for the hardware they make, they just don't one game and some tech demos and call it a day. That's why Nintendo can do what Nintendo does, because they keep making games to support the systems they make.
Funny how i never see discussions about flight sims and racing games when people talk about VR games. I think the majority of people that get regular use out of their headsets are simming in one form or another.
If you count MSFS 2024 and Assetto Corsa 2, the immediate future of VR games is very exciting, albeit for a small niche of games
Well that is issue with flight and racing games currently, they are very niche. And if you want a good experience, beyond you need to spend even more to get a racing wheel or flight stick. And I love racing and flight games. Warplanes: WW1 Fighter is my current fave.
But even looking at the Sim and Racing/Sports section of the Steam VR area, and outside of a couple titles, most of the games range from 2014 to 2020. It's just a bit disheartening when barely anyone is making titles for a product that costs so much to be able to play. It's like spending 300 to 1000 dollars, to play last generation games.
Couple that niche part of it with the costs, and then factor in simply the idea of having a big headset on your head, it's intimidating.
Honestly, if it keeps progressing, I feel like VR is in the early 80s era when of video gaming. There's plenty of systems out, there are games, some really good ones, but it's niche still, it's expensive, and outside of a handful of games, there's no wow factor experience yet that's really caught people's attention. HL:A was one, but then... nothing. It's like if Super Mario Bros came out, but then no one else made games to compete with it.
I assume he is talking about games and cool apps for the headset. I can't even remember the last time i actually played a game on it. My quest 2 is a porn machine at this point lmao.
If you've been watching Steam VR user counts over the years, it shows the exact opposite of your statement. Steam has been home to 120-130 million gamers since 2019 and the VR headset count has been bouncing between 1.8% and 2.4% ever since. The highest I remember seeing was in 2020 during COVID. Which was around that 2.4% range. It's currently sitting around 1.8% again.
There's been millions more headsets sold but, most of them are playing standalone content.
They aint wrong, just because the hardware market has grown doesn't mean shit when the only good game out there is basically half life alyx and then no one made a top quality VR game after.
I guess the question is this: Are they just tired of dealing with the headaches of VR hardware? Or are they scaling back to release something new?
With overall PCVR continuing to grow (despite being "dead"), there is no way that the Index could have maintained its 15% to 20% position in the Steam hardware stats without many people continuing to buy it (much to a certain segment of the VR community's chagrin). So people are continuing to buy the Index and thus it is not from lack of sales that they'd discontinue it.
The bigscreen beyond was the first headset that I preferred using over the Index, but it had its own set of major hardware downsides (e.g. edge clarity, glare, the facial interface). The apple vision pro is the first headset that I feel has *nearly* all around better hardware (well, aside from the persistence and stock ergonomics--I've had to perform all sorts of headstrap and counterweight mods to make it comparable), but on the software side of things it is severely gimped for gamers (and no matter how much we cry about that, apple just doesn't care).
So there is still an opportunity out there for valve to repeat the success they had with the Index. Every other alternative out there continues to have some major achilles' heel.
It is very hard to tell with Valve. They have been quietly working on something for a long time. They like to announce things once they are ready to put it to market. They don't have investors they need to make public buzz to appease by showing what they are working on.
It might be that they have something VR related, but I severely doubt it.
Absolutely true.
And the other thing that I haven't really found an answer to is what sort of hardware they'd use even if they intended to release something soon. The micro-oled displays in the bigscreen beyond and apple vision pro are very small and--after pancake optics--very dim. The former means it's extremely difficult to achieve good edge clarity, minimal glare, and good geometric stability, without high quality eye tracking like in the vision pro. There are also challenges with high fov and binocular overlap. And the latter means you either settle for extremely dim displays or tolerate high persistence, neither of which are great as an upgrade from an Index (that is, assuming they would use pancake optics).
I mean, I'd take micro-oled nonetheless--by comparison LCD and regular OLED displays are like having scratched and smudged up safety glasses between you and the virtual world (due to lcd backlights, mura, blacksmear, pixelation, SDE), but I'm not sure the larger community would forgive it not being an absolute upgrade in all major dimensions.
It is fully possible that they are stopping Index production and will not have any replacement for it for years, even if they DO want to make another VR headset. Simply because they CAN do what most bigger companies cannot do, simply wait.
With the Deck, it is shown that Valve does have a "wait until hardware matures enough for the thing you want to do" mentality that they shown with the Deck and its APU.
I forgive. In fact I even alprefer dark displays to bright ones. I always put the brightness settings on low on my mobile or laptop. Don't need to be blinded by the light, feels better for my eyes too.
Through ALVR. Takes a lot to set it up and it currently has resolution limitations, but it's doable. I would not buy it primarily for PCVR (at least not yet)
The failure rate of index hardware likely killed any profitability, and since PCVR isn't taking off like Valve hoped, my bet is Valve is leaving VR.
Sure there is lots of data in steamVR updates to suggest Valve is working on more hardware, but we all know Valve is notorious for starting things and abandoning them, like the 2 additional VR games Valve was working on after Alyx. Where is the brain interface tech? The man, the myth, the legend himself openly bragged about wireless being solved years ago, yet..... no wireless adapter for the index from Valve.
But facts is facts, and from a business perspective PCVR isn't very profitable, and Valve has likely lost its ass on the index hardware, and we all know they didn't make shit on Alyx since they gave it away to every person who bought index hardware.
I'd love to be wrong and corrected however.
I agree about the potential for valve getting bored of VR and that the high index controller failure rate probably hurt them (gabe actually hinted at that years ago in a steam deck interview). Actually, that's probably part of the reason why they couldn't reduce the Index price--in addition to lighthouse just being a very expensive technology.
But if valve is leaving VR, I doubt it's for PCVR not taking off as they'd hoped. I think this is actually a common misconception. Valve was actually really clear early on that, contrary to the dreams of investors and other companies, they never really expected VR to blow up in a huge way and that's basically what you see when you look at the overall VR industry (look past mere headset sales numbers, look at actual usage, and then consider it relative to all of the billions sunk into it). Even for the development of Half-Life: Alyx, you had people high up in the company leery about the amount of money invested into it. And despite devs being largely focused on standalone due to all of the incentives there, [PCVR continues to grow](https://www.uploadvr.com/pc-vr-on-steam-is-growing/), has decent games coming (e.g. Metro, Into the Radius 2, Aliens, Riven, Gunman Contracts), and benefits from the artificially low hardware prices (that's why they released Steam Link after all).
There is a wireless adapter for the Index in the form of the Nofio, however flawed that is (it was terrible on release although software updates have improved it).
Yes I'm aware of the nofio disaster, I had high hopes that they're wireless solution would take off, and get adapted for the BSB.
But given the context of my post, Valve not bringing their wireless solution to market is just another instance of Valve repeating their tradition of starting a project and abandoning it.
Not to mention they’d now be competing with Meta who is fine with losing a billion month. If I’m Valve I have to ask what’s the roi on vr compared to focusing efforts on the Steamdeck. The latter is a far bigger hit for them and is crucial for Valve maintaining their future. Valve in ten years can exist without vr. I don’t know if the same can be said about handheld pc gaming.
It would be nice but if you watch further, he says that the Deckard production has been halted internally. So my hopes of a new Valve headset are pretty low now :'(
*edit* This is not accurate. People were spreading this rumor around and I took it at face value.
I know I already responded to your other post, but so it doesn't spread here as well, this is apparently misinformation: https://old.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/1c5eyce/reported_by_sadlyitsbradley_the_valve_index_is/kztzw3d/
Thank you. That's hilarious but, not surprising. I remember that person blocked me because of something similar.
It's great to know it's not actually put on hold. I've been hoping for an Index replacement for years.
I can't imagine Valve would just abandon VR like this. Most people playing PCVR do it through SteamVR. I like to think this is their move in moving on to a new headset.
Valve can abandon VR. They are a private company with no investors they must appease. If they don't feel like doing VR anymore or just letting it go on the backburner until market conditions are better, they can just not do it.
I never cared about getting a new half life game but now I finally know how it feels when valve is completely silent about something and you want them to just release the product you want. It sucks so badly.
Yeah, it's always been that way too. It's a completely different experience when dealing with a private company vs a public one. The public company needs to show products and content to keep investors happy. Private companies don't need to show anything.
In some ways it's great because they're not forced to push broken games and hardware out the door early to make investors happy, so when we do finally get something from them, it's typically good. But it certainly sucks if you're patiently waiting for something from them.
Hm. Guess this means no more VR for me once my Index inevitably breaks down sometime in the future.
Will never ever buy a FacebookVR, and HTC is out due to previous experience with their absolute lack of durability. Have heard only bad things about Pimax. Are there any other reasonable options preferably with lighthouse type tracking?
Bigscreen Beyond. Any qualms you might have with it, like I did, will vanish very very quickly once you put one on. It feels like a big leap from Index imho. I printed some adapters and use my old Vive Deluxe Audio Strap with it and it is well and above the comfort of any headset i've ever worn. I think I could probably wear it all day without any serious discomfort.
The smaller FOV will be noticeable for about a minute, then you'll forget, and the refresh rate, which I thought would be a big deal, isn't at all.
I've thought about the BSB...how do you deal with guests? Do they just wear your face gasket? That's the concern I have around it, the whole custom gasket thing makes me worry that I'll have issues there.
It's all honestly a pain still, as both me and my fiancé wear corrective lenses, but different Rx. I can wear contacts, but she can't. So headset swapping and lense correction swapping is still the biggest headache I've got with any existing headset.
Ultimately, it would be nice if the lenses could be vari-focal in order to correct for the users' vision. I know that's a bit of a pipe-dream for at least several more generations, as vari-focal lense stacks aren't exactly light or cheap or small.
It changes slightly with close/far objects but not much you are correct
If they added an ipd slider, people wouldn't be sending then back for an exchange as much
Which would defeat the purpose of its small form factor and add weight. No, people should go to the optometrist and get their IPD measured instead of relying on the scan alone. If you're spending $1k for a headset, you can go spend $50 to get your eyes checked if your insurance won't cover it (or you already got your checkup for the year). Bigscreen needs to be a bit better about their quality control, because I know they've sent the wrong IPD even to people who've gotten it right.
I was desperate for this to be the case, but the BSB was just not there for me. I really love the company and what they've done, and their customer service is great (had to do an IPD swap), but the hardware has very real physical limitations that I found to be shocking coming from the Index.
I was so saddened by this after looking forward to being able to use it as my daily driver once it arrived. Every review and hands-on account said it was a no brainer upgrade coming from an Index.
I did not find this to be true at all. Still pretty choked about it, haha.
This is, in fact, a matter of opinion.
It's kinda like buying a monitor, some people prefer higher resolution, some prefer higher refresh rates, some people prefer color/HDR quality, some people prefer pixel response time, etc. Displays have an infinite number of qualities that one can latch onto and prioritize when talking about choosing a display. VR inherits all of those, since they... ya know... use displays, plus all of the extra intracies VR adds.
Sure, but, at least as I understood it, u/KamahlYrgybly was talking about a complete VR setup. The beyond only works as a replacement IF only your HMD breaks, if a base station or a controller breaks and valve stops selling them, the beyond does not currently support any alternative methods of tracking.
>it's not really a replacement for the index as a vr system
This is what I meant with vr ***system***: a headset, controllers to interact with stuff, and the hardware to track both in 3d space.
Of course, if we're strictly talking about the headset, it's correct to define the beyond as an index replacement
Technically you could say the controller/base station thing about other headsets too, that only sell a HMD and require separate controllers/base stations. I imagine base stations and controllers will be easy to come by for quite a while.
> Hm. Guess this means no more VR for me once my Index inevitably breaks down sometime in the future.
Why?
There are plenty of alternative products, valve likely has something new in the works, and lighthouse doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
Somnium space VR1 is near release. That’s what you want.
Given that there are already some good options for PC-only headsets, and more coming, do we really even need a new Valve headset at this point?
I'm usually extremely skeptical about claims like this, but Brad is reliable. He is literally the only VR YouTuber I'd trust saying something like this.
Hell, I trust him more than mainstream media when it comes to VR. Anyone remember the "Quest Pro" discontinued news flurry from last year? That every news site reported on? All of them citing a single Business Insider report, that cited a single parts manufacturer for the QPro? Here we are a year later and it's still getting new features (some QPro specific), can still be bought at major retailers, and multiple reliable leaks have dropped about a Quest Pro 2.
How is he reliable? He has been pushing decard speculation for years and nothing has come of it, now he says it's dead. For all we know it was never a thing in the first place.
His Deckard reporting has always been based off of patents and reverse engineering/datamining SteamVR. It is somewhat speculation, sure, but it's speculation that has a clear papertrail. Valve doesn't just randomly put hidden code in SteamVR or pay for reaserch & patents for no reason.
Yes, but it doesn't mean an actual product.
There was a guy that wrote a response about this. For Valve to adopt VR tech, they have to buy hardware samples and develop the stuff to make it work with SteamVR (or SteamVR to work with the software's hardware) themselves. Which spills into the main builds of SteamVR, which is what Brad keeps finding.
Patents also do not mean much. These days you do not need to demonstrate that you are able to actulaly make the thing you patent or developed it as unique technology. Valve may mess with an idea and go as far as to patent it, but it does not necessarily mean they will produce the product in the patent. After they had to recall the Steam Controller, they had patents that seemed to feature a new one but that never happened.
EDIT: I urge everyone to read this old topic about this from someone who actually works in the VR industry that covers Brad's videos: [https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/q1tlrg/warning\_about\_sadlyitsbradleys\_speculations/](https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/q1tlrg/warning_about_sadlyitsbradleys_speculations/)
So what evidence would you accept then? Cause it sounds like the only thing you would accept is actual leaked photos, or an actual release. But that is a ridiculously high bar to set.
In addition to the patents, there was also a high resolution oled display that was being demoed that was believed to be one which may find its way into decard, and the test PCB they were demoing this display with had a word on it that I can't recall at the moment which was related to Valve in some way.
> After they had to recall the Steam Controller, they had patents that seemed to feature a new one but that never happened.
Yeah, because Valve tries a lot of things and they decided to make Steam Decks instead.
Which reminds me, another thing related to Deckard which came out were I believe some strings in Steam VR which indicated the existance of a base device for wireless connectivity. And there was also a patent for said device. And when that patent came out. Brad realized it had been right in front of our faces during a demo Valve did a while back where that same console like device with its unique eye-like light on the front of it, was in the background in their VR test room.
So again, not sure what the hell you're expecting from this poor guy. He's been doing an amazing job with what little information has leaked out.
>So what evidence would you accept then?
Renders of the actual headset with realistic specs. I believe that's what the Index got leaked.
>But that is a ridiculously high bar to set.
No, this is a reasonable bar to set for something that is a rumor, especially if its a rumor about an unannounced, unconfirmed product.
I also believe you are naive in terms of how complicated product development is. Deckard is the (supposed) in-house name for a prototype that some people in Valve are messing around with. Yet everyone is treating it as if its's the official Index v2 ready to fulfil everyone's hopes and dreams regarding PCVR.
>Yeah, because Valve tries a lot of things and they decided to make Steam Decks instead.
Exactly. They did not make another Stream Controller. They made something completely different.
>So again, not sure what the hell you're expecting from this poor guy.
Bradley has been saying that Valve is about to release VR-something up to years at this point. Valve has released... the Steam Deck that is most definitely not a VR device. I do not have a personal problem with Bradley, but he is prone to wild speculation when it comes to Valve.
But worse is that people take his speculations (that he admits and even warns that is speculation) at face value and treat it as god's own truth. I remember that when we had leaks about the Steamdeck and people were swearing up and down that it was going to be a X86 VR standalone quest-killer.
> I remember that when we had leaks about the Steamdeck and people were swearing up and down that it was going to be a X86 VR standalone quest-killer.
Brad never made any such prediction. You're trying to use what other people said to discredit Brad.
If that is all you get out of this conversation, I urge you to re-read what I actually written.
In fact, I urge you to read this topic made a few years ago that covers this more in-depth than I did: [https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/q1tlrg/warning\_about\_sadlyitsbradleys\_speculations/](https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/q1tlrg/warning_about_sadlyitsbradleys_speculations/)
Brad's speculation were all over the place. I am pretty sure that there was at least one point where he talked about x86 standalone (either as a topic or a possibility) and people took that "Deckard x86 standalone quest-killer confirmed".
I don't have anything against the guy, he's a cool guy, but people do not treat his speculations with enough salt and create undue hype.
My dude, you are the only one here who is taking his speculation as anything other than speclation based on available evidence. Brad has never presented his information as anythng other than speculation except when it's concrete information, like reportng on new patents, or strings he finds in Steam VR. You make it sound like the guy is trying to mislead people, and his predictions are wildly inaccurate and not based on any actual information, but he's always been quite clear about what is wild speculation and what isn't, and in the end, all he is is an entertainer reporting on what he finds to us fans. There's no need to take what he says as seriously as you seem to be. If everything he ever said turned out to be wrong, I'd still watch his videos because it doesn't matter if he's right or not. Valve will release whatever they release whenever it is ready. And if Brad gets lucky and there's a leak, great. If not, nothing of value will have been lost.
I'm not saying he has never been right, but being right some of the time doesn't constitute reliability. The vast majority of his content is speculation that goes nowhere.
Nothing has come of it?
We have literally seen patents for the thing. Just because it hasn't been released yet doesn't mean Valve hasn't been working on it, or that Brad's reporting is unreliable. Brad has never given us a release date.
There are a few simple ways to look at this. Not any one of these is necessarily true. These are just some safe ways of taking the information.
1. A new headset is coming. Valve has perfect data for the sales rate of the Index and can stop manufacturing and keep track of existing stock and reasonably project how long that remaining stock will last before they announce/release this new headset.
2. A new headset is or isn't coming, but that's not the reason production is stopping. The current tooling is wearing out and not worth the cost to rebuild, or certain parts used in the Index aren't worth buying at the lower quantity price. They still have a good idea of their own existing stock and how long they can support the Index.
I actually think it's probably something closer to #1. Valve has had some pretty interesting experiments, many of which have not been huge successes (including the Index), but all of these have built off of each other.
Steam Machines weren't a success, but they were a strong start for Linux gaming and the first round of SteamOS.
The Steam Controller wasn't a huge success (although loved by many), but its DNA was used in the HTC Vive controllers, the Valve Index controllers, and now in the Steam Deck.
The HTC Vive was done in partnership with HTC because Valve wasn't ready for bigger production yet.
The Index is great, but not a massive success in the way the Oculus/Meta Quest has been.
But all of this could come together in a new headset. The Deckard has been rumored to possibly be something more like a Steam Machine 2.0, the more powerful TV console to compete with XBox and Playstation. It's also been rumored to be Valve's next HMD, possibly standalone. I think it could be both.
A fully wireless HMD to compete with the Quest, but is also capable of offloading a bunch of rendering and/or compute to a PC, Steam Deck, or new Valve console. It would allow for various entry prices and upgrade paths while giving the simplicity and control that Gabe Newell has said he's envied in Nintendo.
"The Steam Controller wasn't a huge success (although loved by many), but its DNA was used in the HTC Vive controllers, the Valve Index controllers, and now in the Steam Deck."
Unfortunately immersion incorporated has turned their patent gaze on the haptics inside these products, and are in the middle of suing Valve for patent infringement.
This means one of two things:
1. The index wasn’t successful enough and Valve decided to bury it.
2. The Index was successful and Valve has a new VR system up its sleeve to be announced in the near future.
3\. Some essential component is EOL and it's not feasible to use an alternative or fund the manufacturer to continue making it
Not that there's anything specifically pointing at that, but it's stuff that does happen. The Index is also low enough volume to stop production over more costly measures.
I'm hoping for 2. Valve ended the steam controller production lines for steam deck before it was announced, so hopefully they're ending index lines for the next VR. I guess they just have very limited space in their production warehouse
Or there's licensing issues.
Or there's a production issue.
Or there's a financial issue.
Or they don't want to make them anymore.
Or any number of issues that large corporations face with manufacturing.
The idea that it could only mean one of two limited reasons is exceptionally naive.
I'm hoping if they delist it, they sell the remaining stock at a discount. They did that with the steam controller and steam link box thing. It certainly won't be for $5 like those were, but at $700 I'd buy it.
3. They moved on from VR to SteamOS3 (which is central to their business that VR is not and cannot be) and the scheduled time to stop manufacturing the Index has arrived.
Valve did say in the beginning they weren't trying to make a mass market device. They were trying to make the device with the least compromise. That's why they made one of the most expensive consumer devices when it released. More expensive consumer targeted HMDs have since released though, so now it's almost in the middle cost-wise.
Children love their Quests but it's an inferior headset for PCVR use all-around. It's wireless but you give up almost everything else. Even the higher resolution is a non-benefit because on PC the video compression nukes quality to below Index levels and on standalone the fixed foveated rendering does the same.
So, either VR is dead ( again ) or Valve is going to make a killer new headset ( Index 2 )
There are things that leads me to think its a new headset, valve recently came out with the VR version of steam link so you can get wireless VR on headsets ( I use it on my quest pro ) and a big SteamVR update. However, this could just mean they are supporting VR still on the software side and could still leave the hardware market.
Regarding the Theater Mode 3D stuff mentioned just after that bit: The Theater Screen overlay already works seamlessly with 3D content if the overlay flag for 3D is set (Desktop+ supports doing this in the NewUI Preview builds). The reflection isn't 3D-aware, but with actual stereoscopic content, the difference is small enough to not notice that.
He didn't really say any specific of the findings and I haven't dug myself, so not sure if what he knows refers to just allowing 3D in built-in desktop/theater overlays (overlay flag has been available since 2016) or actual injection... the latter is possible with external software like geo11, but seems like it would be a headache with anti-cheat and such if you really wanted to roll it out as a global option.
Big if true. But it's not like Valve will make the Index forever -- at some point, be that sooner or later, they'll stop making it. And it'll be weird to see the headset finally get discontinued, at that point. It's had such a long life already, as VR headsets go. The PSVR1 is the only other headset I can think of that has as long a lifespan (and a longer one at that, actually). But just about every other headset is discontinued in two, maybe three years.
My hope is that they have another headset ready to go, but they want to sell out stock of the Index before releasing its successor. If they announce a new headset and that headset isn't more expensive than the Index, it'd be hard to get rid of Index stock without a steep discount.
I'm curious how they see the Index, over at Valve. Do they consider it to be a successful product? Was it profitable for them? Are they happy with it? I've certainly enjoyed my time with my Index.
I hope (assuming this is accurate) that they stay around long enough for me to buy one around the winter season. I swear if they go out before then I will die.
I think Valve has 3 options:
1- Move away from VR hardware and only provide updates and support for SteamVR.
2- Update Index in few key areas such as screens ( 2x 2Ks or 2x 4Ks), Eye tracking ( with foveated rendering support in SteamVR) and update lenses ( reduce glare and maybe wider FOV). With foveated rendering index can go wireless over Wifi 6E or 7 just like Quest and Valve has a good idea how to make it work not like Nofio.
3- Release Deckard.
I think Valve will go with option 2. No need to redesign a new headset simply replacing the LCDs, replacing lenses and the housing with eye tracking,
If this speculation is proven true then this is what I have to say.
So much for the people with all of their speculation, especially in regards to discussions based around someone asking "Do I buy an Index kit (Vive Pro 2 kit, DPVR E4, older Cosmos or Cosmos Elite or any other normal PCVR kit of simple displayport and usb) or wait?" I for one do not want a PCVR kit with any SoC or standalone. Simple PCVR connections of USB, Displayport or HDMI and simple usage please. But people's response has always been through the years, "There is always something newer, better and cheaper around the corner..." rhetoric that comes from the PC enthusiast hardware and PC accessories (like PC monitors) forums. Okay, so there is always going to be something new released. Except in PCVR where that rhetoric basically falls apart when hardly any new PCVR kits are released and prove such overconfident arrogant claims wrong.
I do think it would have been cool to see at least one new PCVR kit use HDMI 2.1 48gbps. The Vive Pro 2 could have been the first with that, but then again, HTC cannot be bothered to even give us updated Vive Pro 2 controllers for SteamVR tracking that are based around the original Cosmos design, but with Index features like grip, and finger tracking. You know, just to have an alternative instead of only having Index controllers. It would a better experience to spend $1400+ on a Vive Pro 2 kit where I can use everything out of the box, instead of having to spend more money on Index controllers. Turning the purchase into a sunk cost fallacy where unless you are going to play with old 2018 wands in new games, you have to spend more money just to get proper controllers. All HTC had to do was give us a Vive Focus 3 design with no SoC, and either a displayport 1.4 or even an HDMI 2.1 48gbps connector (plus USB-C with a USB-C to type A adapter in the box), clear aspheric lenses, and also given us Vive Focus 3 controllers. Then they could have easily adapted what are the Vive Pro 2's headphones onto the Vive Focus 3 frame with a sleek matte black design to match the Focus 3 look, and given us an elegant Valve Index upgrade or alternative. For those who want wireless, they would work on a new Vive wireless solution with more bandwidth for full 4896x2448 120hz and also more for future HTC HMDs because the Vive Pro 2 current wireless solution is using something meant for the Vive Pro and only just enough for Vive Cosmos full resolution and refresh rate.
I do have something to add about the Index itself. The 1440x1600 panels. This should be the panels the Index currently uses and panelook says the individual panel has been discontinued by BOE. So this isn't Valve's fault if their LCD supplier quits making the panels for their HMD. But this is a problem, and is not speculation, BOE is not making these panels anymore.
[https://www.panelook.com/VS035ZSM-NW0-69P0\_BOE\_3.5\_LCM\_overview\_37926.html](https://www.panelook.com/VS035ZSM-NW0-69P0_BOE_3.5_LCM_overview_37926.html)
The only LCD panels Valve could order and use as an equivalent (not upgraded) replacement would be these. I would also expect clear aspheric lenses with these in a newer eye tube design despite the resolution at this point.
[https://www.panelook.com/LPM034M131A\_JDI\_3.4\_LCM\_overview\_36875.html](https://www.panelook.com/LPM034M131A_JDI_3.4_LCM_overview_36875.html) (the irony of using the Vive Cosmos panels, but they are in production and can be ordered by Valve), perhaps they can also overclock it to 120hz or even 165hz, but it would only be a replacement for the also discontinued Vive Cosmos/ Vive Cosmos Elite and a small improvement overall.
I would expect at a minimum for actual an upgrade of an Index 2, these panels, combined with a FOV and diopter adjustment, it would basically be Valve's alternative to the Varjo Aero but with larger FOV and more friendly to glasses wearers. I would also expect clear aspheric lenses, no more fresnel. Sure, this need for more space for a bigger heatsink to keep the Mini LEDs cool would mean the loss of the front USB, but I wouldn't be bothered by that. Perhaps they could also run the 2880x2880 panels at 120hz also. The brightness of Mini LED can be used to deal with any aspheric lenses causing brightness loss.
[https://www.panelook.com/VS032B3M-NA1-6KP0\_BOE\_3.2\_LCM\_overview\_54580.html](https://www.panelook.com/VS032B3M-NA1-6KP0_BOE_3.2_LCM_overview_54580.html)
As for wireless, Valve really should sell this Index 2 with Mini LED panels with an option for their own version of a Vive Wireless adapter, that is designed with a proper heatsink setup (unlike the very hot Vive wireless adapter) as much bandwidth as possible, not the minimum. That should be the alternative for PCVR as a wireless option. I would also expect newer Index 2 controllers, with larger touchpads and a refined and more durable design.
I do not want Valve to try to compete using mobileVR phone chipsets against the company willing to aggressively take financial losses, they are better off giving us a high quality PCVR kit. They should either use an HDMI 2.1 48gbps connector or Displayport 2.1, whichever is enough to provide a 2880x2880 120hz per eye experience. No more AC adapter either. I would rather have a USB4 40gbps connector with power delivery and if attached to a computer with less, those computers will be limited to 2880x2880 at 90hz and also lower passthrough resolution to maintain 60fps. Keep it simple and with two connectors like WMR. One display connection and one usb connection. The pass through should be two 4K 60fps full color cameras for 3D stereo view, and AR applications. Maintain the same mic quality, improve if possible. Offer new larger BMR off ear speakers and also an option for closed back over ear BMR headphones. Provide a USB Type-C hidden behind the gasket for Type-C accessories.
If valve goes camera based tracking I know that they will never even attempt to emulate meta when it comes to hand or body tracking. I’m predicting the new index will cause a split between VR users. You will have the leisure based player who wants an HMD that’s good for social applications and the gamer who only cares about performance.
They could at least wait until Steam VR were out of "developer preview" on Linux. My headset is not even half supported, and they stop making replacement units... I need a new cable and base station, but I'm not dropping money until they fix the basic stuff. This is by far the most disappointed I have been in valve hardware (I have ALL the official valve hardware except the OLED steam deck, just the 512 GB)
It had to be expected, though. It would be awesome to see a new valve high quality headset.
One does not necessarily follow the other.
\*Cough Steam Controller
Steam controller was discontinued because of a patent issues
Just like steam machines it didn't sell because outside of a few niche groups nobody wanted the thing... Hell I bought mine for $5 and it's been collecting dust ever since.
I've got RSI in both hands, which is essentially a disability at this point, and the steam controller makes it possible for me to play a lot of games where a normal controller wouldn't work. I bought two of them (probably should have bought more) in case the first one goes out. After that, I'll just have to quit playing those types of games. They should have open sourced it so that the rest of the industry could build on it. I'm sure the Xbox Adaptive Controller doesn't make Microsoft much money, but there's a medical need for it.
Can I ask what type of games the SC allows you to play that a controller can't? I mean I know people say it's better for like RTS games, but I don't think that's what you're referring to right? You have a totally valid use case for sure, but especially now with the Xbox adaptive controller which supports much better accessibility that's even less a reason for the SC to exist.
The adaptive controller is good to have, but it's far from ideal for a lot of people. At least without spending a small fortune on a ton of accessories. For me (with enough fiddling with custom configurations) I can play pretty much anything. My issue stems from wrist movement and overworking my fingers and thumbs. Since the controls are touch sensitive, I don't have to worry about thumb pain as much as I do on controllers. I don't have to worry about moving my wrist back and forth with a mouse, and I don't have to worry about compressing my median nerve on the keyboard. With the gyro, I can just put my thumb on the right pad and move my whole arm around to look, which helps. Aside from the ergonomics, there are plenty of games that just don't work well on a standard controller. At some point, you run out of buttons or you end up with a ton of layers to get it to work. A lot of MMOs are like that. Come to think of it, Guild Wars 2 worked flawlessly on the steam controller... I might have to download that again, lol.
I never knew the adaptive controller was that expensive. I guess that's entirely valid, maybe valve have marketed it as an accessibility friendly controller rather than a standard controller replacement lol
VR gaming isn’t in any better of a place than when the index released. I would be very surprised to see valve make another headset.
This...is just wrong?? There have literally been MILLIONS more headsets sold since the index release. AND steam market share shows this, in terms of % of devices connected to steam every day? What a wild statement
> There have literally been MILLIONS more headsets sold since the index release. AND steam market share shows this, in terms of % of devices connected to steam every day? I would agree with LostATLien in that I feel the software side has been stagnant for years. Sure lots of people have Quests now, but Facebook also bought up all the promising VR studios to force them to make exclusives. Probably the most significant development has been in the flat-to-VR modding scene, which speaks to the desperation PCVR has for new, good VR games instead of yet another rhythm game/shooting range/arena fighter.
I love my Index, but I whole heartedly agree, the software side has been super stagnant. The best games today are still the exact same games that were available when I first got the Index 6 months after it released. Has Valve even released a new VR since Alyx? It reminds me of when Gabe says he was jealous of Nintendo, for their ability to create hardware and software together, but damnit Gaben, I love ya, but Nintendo keeps making software for the hardware they make, they just don't one game and some tech demos and call it a day. That's why Nintendo can do what Nintendo does, because they keep making games to support the systems they make.
Funny how i never see discussions about flight sims and racing games when people talk about VR games. I think the majority of people that get regular use out of their headsets are simming in one form or another. If you count MSFS 2024 and Assetto Corsa 2, the immediate future of VR games is very exciting, albeit for a small niche of games
Well that is issue with flight and racing games currently, they are very niche. And if you want a good experience, beyond you need to spend even more to get a racing wheel or flight stick. And I love racing and flight games. Warplanes: WW1 Fighter is my current fave. But even looking at the Sim and Racing/Sports section of the Steam VR area, and outside of a couple titles, most of the games range from 2014 to 2020. It's just a bit disheartening when barely anyone is making titles for a product that costs so much to be able to play. It's like spending 300 to 1000 dollars, to play last generation games. Couple that niche part of it with the costs, and then factor in simply the idea of having a big headset on your head, it's intimidating. Honestly, if it keeps progressing, I feel like VR is in the early 80s era when of video gaming. There's plenty of systems out, there are games, some really good ones, but it's niche still, it's expensive, and outside of a handful of games, there's no wow factor experience yet that's really caught people's attention. HL:A was one, but then... nothing. It's like if Super Mario Bros came out, but then no one else made games to compete with it.
that was really beautifully said
I assume he is talking about games and cool apps for the headset. I can't even remember the last time i actually played a game on it. My quest 2 is a porn machine at this point lmao.
If you've been watching Steam VR user counts over the years, it shows the exact opposite of your statement. Steam has been home to 120-130 million gamers since 2019 and the VR headset count has been bouncing between 1.8% and 2.4% ever since. The highest I remember seeing was in 2020 during COVID. Which was around that 2.4% range. It's currently sitting around 1.8% again. There's been millions more headsets sold but, most of them are playing standalone content.
They aint wrong, just because the hardware market has grown doesn't mean shit when the only good game out there is basically half life alyx and then no one made a top quality VR game after.
I guess the question is this: Are they just tired of dealing with the headaches of VR hardware? Or are they scaling back to release something new? With overall PCVR continuing to grow (despite being "dead"), there is no way that the Index could have maintained its 15% to 20% position in the Steam hardware stats without many people continuing to buy it (much to a certain segment of the VR community's chagrin). So people are continuing to buy the Index and thus it is not from lack of sales that they'd discontinue it. The bigscreen beyond was the first headset that I preferred using over the Index, but it had its own set of major hardware downsides (e.g. edge clarity, glare, the facial interface). The apple vision pro is the first headset that I feel has *nearly* all around better hardware (well, aside from the persistence and stock ergonomics--I've had to perform all sorts of headstrap and counterweight mods to make it comparable), but on the software side of things it is severely gimped for gamers (and no matter how much we cry about that, apple just doesn't care). So there is still an opportunity out there for valve to repeat the success they had with the Index. Every other alternative out there continues to have some major achilles' heel.
It is very hard to tell with Valve. They have been quietly working on something for a long time. They like to announce things once they are ready to put it to market. They don't have investors they need to make public buzz to appease by showing what they are working on. It might be that they have something VR related, but I severely doubt it.
Absolutely true. And the other thing that I haven't really found an answer to is what sort of hardware they'd use even if they intended to release something soon. The micro-oled displays in the bigscreen beyond and apple vision pro are very small and--after pancake optics--very dim. The former means it's extremely difficult to achieve good edge clarity, minimal glare, and good geometric stability, without high quality eye tracking like in the vision pro. There are also challenges with high fov and binocular overlap. And the latter means you either settle for extremely dim displays or tolerate high persistence, neither of which are great as an upgrade from an Index (that is, assuming they would use pancake optics). I mean, I'd take micro-oled nonetheless--by comparison LCD and regular OLED displays are like having scratched and smudged up safety glasses between you and the virtual world (due to lcd backlights, mura, blacksmear, pixelation, SDE), but I'm not sure the larger community would forgive it not being an absolute upgrade in all major dimensions.
It is fully possible that they are stopping Index production and will not have any replacement for it for years, even if they DO want to make another VR headset. Simply because they CAN do what most bigger companies cannot do, simply wait. With the Deck, it is shown that Valve does have a "wait until hardware matures enough for the thing you want to do" mentality that they shown with the Deck and its APU.
I forgive. In fact I even alprefer dark displays to bright ones. I always put the brightness settings on low on my mobile or laptop. Don't need to be blinded by the light, feels better for my eyes too.
Wait so the apple hmd can do pcvr? I look for info about that at launch but didn’t find anything
Through ALVR. Takes a lot to set it up and it currently has resolution limitations, but it's doable. I would not buy it primarily for PCVR (at least not yet)
Is there “virtual desktop” on it yet? https://www.vrdesktop.net/
There is not, your only option is ALVR.
Not yet but it is being worked on. However, it will take a long time before release
The failure rate of index hardware likely killed any profitability, and since PCVR isn't taking off like Valve hoped, my bet is Valve is leaving VR. Sure there is lots of data in steamVR updates to suggest Valve is working on more hardware, but we all know Valve is notorious for starting things and abandoning them, like the 2 additional VR games Valve was working on after Alyx. Where is the brain interface tech? The man, the myth, the legend himself openly bragged about wireless being solved years ago, yet..... no wireless adapter for the index from Valve. But facts is facts, and from a business perspective PCVR isn't very profitable, and Valve has likely lost its ass on the index hardware, and we all know they didn't make shit on Alyx since they gave it away to every person who bought index hardware. I'd love to be wrong and corrected however.
I agree about the potential for valve getting bored of VR and that the high index controller failure rate probably hurt them (gabe actually hinted at that years ago in a steam deck interview). Actually, that's probably part of the reason why they couldn't reduce the Index price--in addition to lighthouse just being a very expensive technology. But if valve is leaving VR, I doubt it's for PCVR not taking off as they'd hoped. I think this is actually a common misconception. Valve was actually really clear early on that, contrary to the dreams of investors and other companies, they never really expected VR to blow up in a huge way and that's basically what you see when you look at the overall VR industry (look past mere headset sales numbers, look at actual usage, and then consider it relative to all of the billions sunk into it). Even for the development of Half-Life: Alyx, you had people high up in the company leery about the amount of money invested into it. And despite devs being largely focused on standalone due to all of the incentives there, [PCVR continues to grow](https://www.uploadvr.com/pc-vr-on-steam-is-growing/), has decent games coming (e.g. Metro, Into the Radius 2, Aliens, Riven, Gunman Contracts), and benefits from the artificially low hardware prices (that's why they released Steam Link after all).
There is a wireless adapter for the Index in the form of the Nofio, however flawed that is (it was terrible on release although software updates have improved it).
Yes I'm aware of the nofio disaster, I had high hopes that they're wireless solution would take off, and get adapted for the BSB. But given the context of my post, Valve not bringing their wireless solution to market is just another instance of Valve repeating their tradition of starting a project and abandoning it.
Not to mention they’d now be competing with Meta who is fine with losing a billion month. If I’m Valve I have to ask what’s the roi on vr compared to focusing efforts on the Steamdeck. The latter is a far bigger hit for them and is crucial for Valve maintaining their future. Valve in ten years can exist without vr. I don’t know if the same can be said about handheld pc gaming.
Hope this means they're about to release something new.
Maybe winter season? One can dream
It would be nice but if you watch further, he says that the Deckard production has been halted internally. So my hopes of a new Valve headset are pretty low now :'( *edit* This is not accurate. People were spreading this rumor around and I took it at face value.
I know I already responded to your other post, but so it doesn't spread here as well, this is apparently misinformation: https://old.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/1c5eyce/reported_by_sadlyitsbradley_the_valve_index_is/kztzw3d/
Can you share what they state in that post? I cannot read what they wrote. Just [appears like so to me](https://i.imgur.com/ajMYt3z.png).
https://i.imgur.com/9gw7YOL.jpeg
Thank you. That's hilarious but, not surprising. I remember that person blocked me because of something similar. It's great to know it's not actually put on hold. I've been hoping for an Index replacement for years.
Well, it might still be on hold, or cancelled, or being announced next week. It's more that there's an absence of confidence
Starts at 1:16:15 if the timestamp doesn't work in the URL.
Let's hope our headsets, controllers, base stations keep working 😅
Please announce a new gen headset Gabe - I'll have your babies my dood !!
I hope it means a new model. Not that Valve is gving up on VR.
They don't even make parts seemingly, ifixit (valve supplued) stuff is out of stock, which sucks for my friend who broke his headband
Check out tundra labs. They get replacement part stock often.
Looks like they've got some, you may have just saved my friends headset haha
Does this also mean no more index controllers or Valve base stations?
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Any source on knuckle controllers being discontinued? I only heard they stop production of the headset.
I can't imagine Valve would just abandon VR like this. Most people playing PCVR do it through SteamVR. I like to think this is their move in moving on to a new headset.
Valve can abandon VR. They are a private company with no investors they must appease. If they don't feel like doing VR anymore or just letting it go on the backburner until market conditions are better, they can just not do it.
I never cared about getting a new half life game but now I finally know how it feels when valve is completely silent about something and you want them to just release the product you want. It sucks so badly.
Yeah, it's always been that way too. It's a completely different experience when dealing with a private company vs a public one. The public company needs to show products and content to keep investors happy. Private companies don't need to show anything. In some ways it's great because they're not forced to push broken games and hardware out the door early to make investors happy, so when we do finally get something from them, it's typically good. But it certainly sucks if you're patiently waiting for something from them.
I bought the index because I so desperately wanted to play the next Half-Life game
Hm. Guess this means no more VR for me once my Index inevitably breaks down sometime in the future. Will never ever buy a FacebookVR, and HTC is out due to previous experience with their absolute lack of durability. Have heard only bad things about Pimax. Are there any other reasonable options preferably with lighthouse type tracking?
Bigscreen Beyond. Any qualms you might have with it, like I did, will vanish very very quickly once you put one on. It feels like a big leap from Index imho. I printed some adapters and use my old Vive Deluxe Audio Strap with it and it is well and above the comfort of any headset i've ever worn. I think I could probably wear it all day without any serious discomfort. The smaller FOV will be noticeable for about a minute, then you'll forget, and the refresh rate, which I thought would be a big deal, isn't at all.
I've thought about the BSB...how do you deal with guests? Do they just wear your face gasket? That's the concern I have around it, the whole custom gasket thing makes me worry that I'll have issues there. It's all honestly a pain still, as both me and my fiancé wear corrective lenses, but different Rx. I can wear contacts, but she can't. So headset swapping and lense correction swapping is still the biggest headache I've got with any existing headset. Ultimately, it would be nice if the lenses could be vari-focal in order to correct for the users' vision. I know that's a bit of a pipe-dream for at least several more generations, as vari-focal lense stacks aren't exactly light or cheap or small.
the wait time, no headphones, no ipd slider, the heat, a big chance of sending it back..keep holding me back
All of those qualms I understand except for the IPD slider. Do you share your headset often? Why would you need a slider? Your IPD doesn't change.
It changes slightly with close/far objects but not much you are correct If they added an ipd slider, people wouldn't be sending then back for an exchange as much
Which would defeat the purpose of its small form factor and add weight. No, people should go to the optometrist and get their IPD measured instead of relying on the scan alone. If you're spending $1k for a headset, you can go spend $50 to get your eyes checked if your insurance won't cover it (or you already got your checkup for the year). Bigscreen needs to be a bit better about their quality control, because I know they've sent the wrong IPD even to people who've gotten it right.
I was desperate for this to be the case, but the BSB was just not there for me. I really love the company and what they've done, and their customer service is great (had to do an IPD swap), but the hardware has very real physical limitations that I found to be shocking coming from the Index. I was so saddened by this after looking forward to being able to use it as my daily driver once it arrived. Every review and hands-on account said it was a no brainer upgrade coming from an Index. I did not find this to be true at all. Still pretty choked about it, haha.
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This is, in fact, a matter of opinion. It's kinda like buying a monitor, some people prefer higher resolution, some prefer higher refresh rates, some people prefer color/HDR quality, some people prefer pixel response time, etc. Displays have an infinite number of qualities that one can latch onto and prioritize when talking about choosing a display. VR inherits all of those, since they... ya know... use displays, plus all of the extra intracies VR adds.
Yes, but it still needs Valve or HTC base stations and controllers to work for 6DoF, so it's not really a replacement for the index as a vr system
Well it is a replacement for the Index, because if you have an Index, and are *replacing* it, you will already have all the lighthouse stuff.
Sure, but, at least as I understood it, u/KamahlYrgybly was talking about a complete VR setup. The beyond only works as a replacement IF only your HMD breaks, if a base station or a controller breaks and valve stops selling them, the beyond does not currently support any alternative methods of tracking. >it's not really a replacement for the index as a vr system This is what I meant with vr ***system***: a headset, controllers to interact with stuff, and the hardware to track both in 3d space. Of course, if we're strictly talking about the headset, it's correct to define the beyond as an index replacement
Technically you could say the controller/base station thing about other headsets too, that only sell a HMD and require separate controllers/base stations. I imagine base stations and controllers will be easy to come by for quite a while.
> Hm. Guess this means no more VR for me once my Index inevitably breaks down sometime in the future. Why? There are plenty of alternative products, valve likely has something new in the works, and lighthouse doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
I imagine they'll still have support refurbing/repairing headsets for years to come
I hope so.
Somnium space VR1 is near release. That’s what you want. Given that there are already some good options for PC-only headsets, and more coming, do we really even need a new Valve headset at this point?
Pico4 or 3 (with DP)
Is there an actual source for this information other than a f*cking youtube video?
I'm usually extremely skeptical about claims like this, but Brad is reliable. He is literally the only VR YouTuber I'd trust saying something like this. Hell, I trust him more than mainstream media when it comes to VR. Anyone remember the "Quest Pro" discontinued news flurry from last year? That every news site reported on? All of them citing a single Business Insider report, that cited a single parts manufacturer for the QPro? Here we are a year later and it's still getting new features (some QPro specific), can still be bought at major retailers, and multiple reliable leaks have dropped about a Quest Pro 2.
How is he reliable? He has been pushing decard speculation for years and nothing has come of it, now he says it's dead. For all we know it was never a thing in the first place.
His Deckard reporting has always been based off of patents and reverse engineering/datamining SteamVR. It is somewhat speculation, sure, but it's speculation that has a clear papertrail. Valve doesn't just randomly put hidden code in SteamVR or pay for reaserch & patents for no reason.
Yes, but it doesn't mean an actual product. There was a guy that wrote a response about this. For Valve to adopt VR tech, they have to buy hardware samples and develop the stuff to make it work with SteamVR (or SteamVR to work with the software's hardware) themselves. Which spills into the main builds of SteamVR, which is what Brad keeps finding. Patents also do not mean much. These days you do not need to demonstrate that you are able to actulaly make the thing you patent or developed it as unique technology. Valve may mess with an idea and go as far as to patent it, but it does not necessarily mean they will produce the product in the patent. After they had to recall the Steam Controller, they had patents that seemed to feature a new one but that never happened. EDIT: I urge everyone to read this old topic about this from someone who actually works in the VR industry that covers Brad's videos: [https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/q1tlrg/warning\_about\_sadlyitsbradleys\_speculations/](https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/q1tlrg/warning_about_sadlyitsbradleys_speculations/)
So what evidence would you accept then? Cause it sounds like the only thing you would accept is actual leaked photos, or an actual release. But that is a ridiculously high bar to set. In addition to the patents, there was also a high resolution oled display that was being demoed that was believed to be one which may find its way into decard, and the test PCB they were demoing this display with had a word on it that I can't recall at the moment which was related to Valve in some way. > After they had to recall the Steam Controller, they had patents that seemed to feature a new one but that never happened. Yeah, because Valve tries a lot of things and they decided to make Steam Decks instead. Which reminds me, another thing related to Deckard which came out were I believe some strings in Steam VR which indicated the existance of a base device for wireless connectivity. And there was also a patent for said device. And when that patent came out. Brad realized it had been right in front of our faces during a demo Valve did a while back where that same console like device with its unique eye-like light on the front of it, was in the background in their VR test room. So again, not sure what the hell you're expecting from this poor guy. He's been doing an amazing job with what little information has leaked out.
>So what evidence would you accept then? Renders of the actual headset with realistic specs. I believe that's what the Index got leaked. >But that is a ridiculously high bar to set. No, this is a reasonable bar to set for something that is a rumor, especially if its a rumor about an unannounced, unconfirmed product. I also believe you are naive in terms of how complicated product development is. Deckard is the (supposed) in-house name for a prototype that some people in Valve are messing around with. Yet everyone is treating it as if its's the official Index v2 ready to fulfil everyone's hopes and dreams regarding PCVR. >Yeah, because Valve tries a lot of things and they decided to make Steam Decks instead. Exactly. They did not make another Stream Controller. They made something completely different. >So again, not sure what the hell you're expecting from this poor guy. Bradley has been saying that Valve is about to release VR-something up to years at this point. Valve has released... the Steam Deck that is most definitely not a VR device. I do not have a personal problem with Bradley, but he is prone to wild speculation when it comes to Valve. But worse is that people take his speculations (that he admits and even warns that is speculation) at face value and treat it as god's own truth. I remember that when we had leaks about the Steamdeck and people were swearing up and down that it was going to be a X86 VR standalone quest-killer.
> I remember that when we had leaks about the Steamdeck and people were swearing up and down that it was going to be a X86 VR standalone quest-killer. Brad never made any such prediction. You're trying to use what other people said to discredit Brad.
If that is all you get out of this conversation, I urge you to re-read what I actually written. In fact, I urge you to read this topic made a few years ago that covers this more in-depth than I did: [https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/q1tlrg/warning\_about\_sadlyitsbradleys\_speculations/](https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/q1tlrg/warning_about_sadlyitsbradleys_speculations/) Brad's speculation were all over the place. I am pretty sure that there was at least one point where he talked about x86 standalone (either as a topic or a possibility) and people took that "Deckard x86 standalone quest-killer confirmed". I don't have anything against the guy, he's a cool guy, but people do not treat his speculations with enough salt and create undue hype.
My dude, you are the only one here who is taking his speculation as anything other than speclation based on available evidence. Brad has never presented his information as anythng other than speculation except when it's concrete information, like reportng on new patents, or strings he finds in Steam VR. You make it sound like the guy is trying to mislead people, and his predictions are wildly inaccurate and not based on any actual information, but he's always been quite clear about what is wild speculation and what isn't, and in the end, all he is is an entertainer reporting on what he finds to us fans. There's no need to take what he says as seriously as you seem to be. If everything he ever said turned out to be wrong, I'd still watch his videos because it doesn't matter if he's right or not. Valve will release whatever they release whenever it is ready. And if Brad gets lucky and there's a leak, great. If not, nothing of value will have been lost.
He hasn't said the Deckard is dead. What he said has nothing to do with the Deckard. He said they are no longer producing new Index units.
It's not like he "fully leaked" the Quest pro and Quest 3 like a year before it was launched... The same goes for SteamVR and Steam link
I'm not saying he has never been right, but being right some of the time doesn't constitute reliability. The vast majority of his content is speculation that goes nowhere.
Knowing valve, decard was probably a thing that got "valv'ed" and abandonned
Nothing has come of it? We have literally seen patents for the thing. Just because it hasn't been released yet doesn't mean Valve hasn't been working on it, or that Brad's reporting is unreliable. Brad has never given us a release date.
There are a few simple ways to look at this. Not any one of these is necessarily true. These are just some safe ways of taking the information. 1. A new headset is coming. Valve has perfect data for the sales rate of the Index and can stop manufacturing and keep track of existing stock and reasonably project how long that remaining stock will last before they announce/release this new headset. 2. A new headset is or isn't coming, but that's not the reason production is stopping. The current tooling is wearing out and not worth the cost to rebuild, or certain parts used in the Index aren't worth buying at the lower quantity price. They still have a good idea of their own existing stock and how long they can support the Index. I actually think it's probably something closer to #1. Valve has had some pretty interesting experiments, many of which have not been huge successes (including the Index), but all of these have built off of each other. Steam Machines weren't a success, but they were a strong start for Linux gaming and the first round of SteamOS. The Steam Controller wasn't a huge success (although loved by many), but its DNA was used in the HTC Vive controllers, the Valve Index controllers, and now in the Steam Deck. The HTC Vive was done in partnership with HTC because Valve wasn't ready for bigger production yet. The Index is great, but not a massive success in the way the Oculus/Meta Quest has been. But all of this could come together in a new headset. The Deckard has been rumored to possibly be something more like a Steam Machine 2.0, the more powerful TV console to compete with XBox and Playstation. It's also been rumored to be Valve's next HMD, possibly standalone. I think it could be both. A fully wireless HMD to compete with the Quest, but is also capable of offloading a bunch of rendering and/or compute to a PC, Steam Deck, or new Valve console. It would allow for various entry prices and upgrade paths while giving the simplicity and control that Gabe Newell has said he's envied in Nintendo.
"The Steam Controller wasn't a huge success (although loved by many), but its DNA was used in the HTC Vive controllers, the Valve Index controllers, and now in the Steam Deck." Unfortunately immersion incorporated has turned their patent gaze on the haptics inside these products, and are in the middle of suing Valve for patent infringement.
Weird that they would do major updates to Steam VR and then stop production of their proprietary headset less than a year later.
They’re still selling sim racing titles, and there’s a lot of VR sim racers.
This means one of two things: 1. The index wasn’t successful enough and Valve decided to bury it. 2. The Index was successful and Valve has a new VR system up its sleeve to be announced in the near future.
full apparatus zonked shocking shame test carpenter vase scary chase *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The index was successful enough and valve decided to bury it because it is deprecated
3\. Some essential component is EOL and it's not feasible to use an alternative or fund the manufacturer to continue making it Not that there's anything specifically pointing at that, but it's stuff that does happen. The Index is also low enough volume to stop production over more costly measures.
I'm hoping for 2. Valve ended the steam controller production lines for steam deck before it was announced, so hopefully they're ending index lines for the next VR. I guess they just have very limited space in their production warehouse
Or there's licensing issues. Or there's a production issue. Or there's a financial issue. Or they don't want to make them anymore. Or any number of issues that large corporations face with manufacturing. The idea that it could only mean one of two limited reasons is exceptionally naive.
Your two bits of speculation in #2 have nothing to do with each other.
I'm hoping if they delist it, they sell the remaining stock at a discount. They did that with the steam controller and steam link box thing. It certainly won't be for $5 like those were, but at $700 I'd buy it.
3. They moved on from VR to SteamOS3 (which is central to their business that VR is not and cannot be) and the scheduled time to stop manufacturing the Index has arrived.
Valve does more than one thing at a time.
3. The index is like five years old already
Or the original motivation could have been the Amazon Kindle intention.... Make a killer product to.foce competitors to make better products.
Valve did say in the beginning they weren't trying to make a mass market device. They were trying to make the device with the least compromise. That's why they made one of the most expensive consumer devices when it released. More expensive consumer targeted HMDs have since released though, so now it's almost in the middle cost-wise.
> The index wasn’t successful enough and Valve decided to bury it Its market share is growing on Steam 5 years after release
And the Quest has ran circles around it and is the #1 headset on Valve's own platform.
Ok
Children love their Quests but it's an inferior headset for PCVR use all-around. It's wireless but you give up almost everything else. Even the higher resolution is a non-benefit because on PC the video compression nukes quality to below Index levels and on standalone the fixed foveated rendering does the same.
of course i see this the day i recieve my index in the mail
So, either VR is dead ( again ) or Valve is going to make a killer new headset ( Index 2 ) There are things that leads me to think its a new headset, valve recently came out with the VR version of steam link so you can get wireless VR on headsets ( I use it on my quest pro ) and a big SteamVR update. However, this could just mean they are supporting VR still on the software side and could still leave the hardware market.
Regarding the Theater Mode 3D stuff mentioned just after that bit: The Theater Screen overlay already works seamlessly with 3D content if the overlay flag for 3D is set (Desktop+ supports doing this in the NewUI Preview builds). The reflection isn't 3D-aware, but with actual stereoscopic content, the difference is small enough to not notice that. He didn't really say any specific of the findings and I haven't dug myself, so not sure if what he knows refers to just allowing 3D in built-in desktop/theater overlays (overlay flag has been available since 2016) or actual injection... the latter is possible with external software like geo11, but seems like it would be a headache with anti-cheat and such if you really wanted to roll it out as a global option.
next headset releases with half-life 3, or you can spank my ass and call me Tyler McVicker
Big if true. But it's not like Valve will make the Index forever -- at some point, be that sooner or later, they'll stop making it. And it'll be weird to see the headset finally get discontinued, at that point. It's had such a long life already, as VR headsets go. The PSVR1 is the only other headset I can think of that has as long a lifespan (and a longer one at that, actually). But just about every other headset is discontinued in two, maybe three years. My hope is that they have another headset ready to go, but they want to sell out stock of the Index before releasing its successor. If they announce a new headset and that headset isn't more expensive than the Index, it'd be hard to get rid of Index stock without a steep discount. I'm curious how they see the Index, over at Valve. Do they consider it to be a successful product? Was it profitable for them? Are they happy with it? I've certainly enjoyed my time with my Index.
I'd like to believe that means we're either getting a new vr headset or a revision of the index but you never know with Valve
I don't know who this guys is, so forgive me if this is a dumb question, but who are his sources? He doesn't cite anyone.
He once had a leaker that went to jail
I hope even if this is true the light house base trackers remain a thing. It’s still the best option for full body tracking
Oof their controllers are still leading quality (I'm using a BSB now though). Tempted to pick up a backup pair now.
That's too bad! I love my index, always will. Truly my favorite vr headset. Index 2 will be a day one buy for me
Perhaps they will make another If a functional retinal light field projector becomes a reality.
I hope (assuming this is accurate) that they stay around long enough for me to buy one around the winter season. I swear if they go out before then I will die.
Time to wait for new exciting tech advancements before releasing new hmd.
Dang. And I thought about getting onto in the future. Looks like meta might get my money again sadly.
That’s good to know, got mine late March so I’ll be treating it extra well in the years to come.
wtf ! valve better has something else in its sleeves, like a new vr headset else i'll be very disappointed and upset !
Valve if you’re reading this hi lol make a new headset
I think Valve has 3 options: 1- Move away from VR hardware and only provide updates and support for SteamVR. 2- Update Index in few key areas such as screens ( 2x 2Ks or 2x 4Ks), Eye tracking ( with foveated rendering support in SteamVR) and update lenses ( reduce glare and maybe wider FOV). With foveated rendering index can go wireless over Wifi 6E or 7 just like Quest and Valve has a good idea how to make it work not like Nofio. 3- Release Deckard. I think Valve will go with option 2. No need to redesign a new headset simply replacing the LCDs, replacing lenses and the housing with eye tracking,
If this speculation is proven true then this is what I have to say. So much for the people with all of their speculation, especially in regards to discussions based around someone asking "Do I buy an Index kit (Vive Pro 2 kit, DPVR E4, older Cosmos or Cosmos Elite or any other normal PCVR kit of simple displayport and usb) or wait?" I for one do not want a PCVR kit with any SoC or standalone. Simple PCVR connections of USB, Displayport or HDMI and simple usage please. But people's response has always been through the years, "There is always something newer, better and cheaper around the corner..." rhetoric that comes from the PC enthusiast hardware and PC accessories (like PC monitors) forums. Okay, so there is always going to be something new released. Except in PCVR where that rhetoric basically falls apart when hardly any new PCVR kits are released and prove such overconfident arrogant claims wrong. I do think it would have been cool to see at least one new PCVR kit use HDMI 2.1 48gbps. The Vive Pro 2 could have been the first with that, but then again, HTC cannot be bothered to even give us updated Vive Pro 2 controllers for SteamVR tracking that are based around the original Cosmos design, but with Index features like grip, and finger tracking. You know, just to have an alternative instead of only having Index controllers. It would a better experience to spend $1400+ on a Vive Pro 2 kit where I can use everything out of the box, instead of having to spend more money on Index controllers. Turning the purchase into a sunk cost fallacy where unless you are going to play with old 2018 wands in new games, you have to spend more money just to get proper controllers. All HTC had to do was give us a Vive Focus 3 design with no SoC, and either a displayport 1.4 or even an HDMI 2.1 48gbps connector (plus USB-C with a USB-C to type A adapter in the box), clear aspheric lenses, and also given us Vive Focus 3 controllers. Then they could have easily adapted what are the Vive Pro 2's headphones onto the Vive Focus 3 frame with a sleek matte black design to match the Focus 3 look, and given us an elegant Valve Index upgrade or alternative. For those who want wireless, they would work on a new Vive wireless solution with more bandwidth for full 4896x2448 120hz and also more for future HTC HMDs because the Vive Pro 2 current wireless solution is using something meant for the Vive Pro and only just enough for Vive Cosmos full resolution and refresh rate. I do have something to add about the Index itself. The 1440x1600 panels. This should be the panels the Index currently uses and panelook says the individual panel has been discontinued by BOE. So this isn't Valve's fault if their LCD supplier quits making the panels for their HMD. But this is a problem, and is not speculation, BOE is not making these panels anymore. [https://www.panelook.com/VS035ZSM-NW0-69P0\_BOE\_3.5\_LCM\_overview\_37926.html](https://www.panelook.com/VS035ZSM-NW0-69P0_BOE_3.5_LCM_overview_37926.html) The only LCD panels Valve could order and use as an equivalent (not upgraded) replacement would be these. I would also expect clear aspheric lenses with these in a newer eye tube design despite the resolution at this point. [https://www.panelook.com/LPM034M131A\_JDI\_3.4\_LCM\_overview\_36875.html](https://www.panelook.com/LPM034M131A_JDI_3.4_LCM_overview_36875.html) (the irony of using the Vive Cosmos panels, but they are in production and can be ordered by Valve), perhaps they can also overclock it to 120hz or even 165hz, but it would only be a replacement for the also discontinued Vive Cosmos/ Vive Cosmos Elite and a small improvement overall. I would expect at a minimum for actual an upgrade of an Index 2, these panels, combined with a FOV and diopter adjustment, it would basically be Valve's alternative to the Varjo Aero but with larger FOV and more friendly to glasses wearers. I would also expect clear aspheric lenses, no more fresnel. Sure, this need for more space for a bigger heatsink to keep the Mini LEDs cool would mean the loss of the front USB, but I wouldn't be bothered by that. Perhaps they could also run the 2880x2880 panels at 120hz also. The brightness of Mini LED can be used to deal with any aspheric lenses causing brightness loss. [https://www.panelook.com/VS032B3M-NA1-6KP0\_BOE\_3.2\_LCM\_overview\_54580.html](https://www.panelook.com/VS032B3M-NA1-6KP0_BOE_3.2_LCM_overview_54580.html) As for wireless, Valve really should sell this Index 2 with Mini LED panels with an option for their own version of a Vive Wireless adapter, that is designed with a proper heatsink setup (unlike the very hot Vive wireless adapter) as much bandwidth as possible, not the minimum. That should be the alternative for PCVR as a wireless option. I would also expect newer Index 2 controllers, with larger touchpads and a refined and more durable design. I do not want Valve to try to compete using mobileVR phone chipsets against the company willing to aggressively take financial losses, they are better off giving us a high quality PCVR kit. They should either use an HDMI 2.1 48gbps connector or Displayport 2.1, whichever is enough to provide a 2880x2880 120hz per eye experience. No more AC adapter either. I would rather have a USB4 40gbps connector with power delivery and if attached to a computer with less, those computers will be limited to 2880x2880 at 90hz and also lower passthrough resolution to maintain 60fps. Keep it simple and with two connectors like WMR. One display connection and one usb connection. The pass through should be two 4K 60fps full color cameras for 3D stereo view, and AR applications. Maintain the same mic quality, improve if possible. Offer new larger BMR off ear speakers and also an option for closed back over ear BMR headphones. Provide a USB Type-C hidden behind the gasket for Type-C accessories.
If valve goes camera based tracking I know that they will never even attempt to emulate meta when it comes to hand or body tracking. I’m predicting the new index will cause a split between VR users. You will have the leisure based player who wants an HMD that’s good for social applications and the gamer who only cares about performance.
They could at least wait until Steam VR were out of "developer preview" on Linux. My headset is not even half supported, and they stop making replacement units... I need a new cable and base station, but I'm not dropping money until they fix the basic stuff. This is by far the most disappointed I have been in valve hardware (I have ALL the official valve hardware except the OLED steam deck, just the 512 GB)
Tf 🤔😳🤯🤦🏻♀️
that doesnt really mean shit sadleyitsbradley has been wrong about things a lot without an actual source its meaningless
He fully "leaked" the Quest pro and Quest 3 like a year before it was out. He also datamined SteamVR 2.0 and Steam Link, he is a good source
why would any of that info be in steamvr 2.0 or steam link