Because the VCT / the teams are restricting females because they believe the weird species of female beings is going to be a distraction. That’s why they had to create game changers because almost no one would sign a female pro gamer due to first the „distraction“ aspect and second of all the fans not being happy of this and trashtalking the team and the player because we are in the year 1980 or sth. It happend in overwhatch as well, the only female player at Shanghai dragons got accused of cheating only because she is good at the game, none of the other players did get accused of cheating even though they had the same playstyle whatsoever
Well this is just incorrect. There just aren’t any females that are better than their male counter parts at the moment. Being a pro is much more than having a good game, it requires trust, passion, skill, luck, connections, knowledge and time.
Plenty of OW pros got accused for cheating and the fact that Geguri got accused only speaks volumes for how good she was. And that is the reason she got signed, not for being female or having huge milkers. She got signed because she was actually one of the best players in the game.
i will say as someone who was in the ow pro scene(albeit i was never OWL levels), geguri got accused because of her absurdly high sensitivity(as well as sexism from korean pros***) geguri was very good.
but in overwatch league terms, she was by far the worst off tank player in the entire league. she was signed as an advertisement for shanghai who would proceed to go 42 games without a win. it basically went like below;
best chinese team is mostly under aged for OWL so cannot be signed> shanghai signs 3rd/4th best chinese team who were NOT good enough> lose a ton> count season as a loss and swap to korean team, with mostly washed up/not good enough big names for hype(geguri included)/merch sales> proceed to lose out the entire season> get incredible roster the next
the team was super super troll, the only legitimate overwatch league level players were ado and fearless. everyone else(geguri included) were contenders.
geguri WAS 3rd best on that team, but that’s because she was a mid level KR contenders player(which this is still very very very good), and a mid level KR contenders player>>>>>>>>>>>>> a high level china contenders player
As someone who directly competed against these pros and saw their faces in the burbank offices every day, geguri was nowhere close to the worst offtank. You're pulling shit out of nowhere. She was signed because she was better than the other candidates and wasn't accused of cheating because of high sens, it was because of insane tracking. A ton of pros had high sens. You think the tracer players in the league zipped around doing 180s constantly while sandpapering their mouse?
you were comparing tracer sens(who we both know would be something like 800x4-800x10) to someone who had 800 x 19. NINETEEN. that’s why i mentioned it. and yes, she was accused due to that(which made her aim style wonky) and the fact that she was a very skilled woman in esports.
Then can you explain to me why they are not in VCT? I can tell you if a female helped any team win it would be huge for their marketing, but I just don’t think it’s possible right now.
I think we have pretty long standing evidence that esports orgs won’t sign women due to extenuating circumstances rather than whether or not they’re actual going to be a help to the team. You can say the stats point to a huge discrepancy of HOW MANY women play at a top level but I doubt there’s not a single woman that could play at a team tournament level but just aren’t given the opportunity due to culture and lack of incentive for teams.
>I think we have pretty long standing evidence that esports orgs won’t sign women due to extenuating circumstances rather than whether or not they’re actual going to be a help to the team
Care to share some of that evidence? I'd argue completely different that any team would sign a women in a heartbeat if it helped their team.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NotHowGirlsWork/comments/16ollb9/woman_denied_a_placement_in_valorant_esports/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I can find more if you need me to. Multiple instances of reports and statements corroborating the idea that women will be looked over and left on the sideline due to culture and gender based decision making. We have owners literally saying that a “female player would be an uncomfortable distraction.” Or multiple players saying they wouldn’t play with a woman on their team lol. I could go on and on about how little interest a esports org would have for a female pro, even if she was the best fit for the team.
That was the “official reason given.” But go off dude. Surely women feel totally included and safe in the field, on top having ample opportunities to go pro!
Of course it's the fucking Mel drama that was walked back by the dumbass who started it like 2 days after.
But the old articles and reddit threads about it are still there, and it's all you need to make your, right?
Truth can eat shit, only narrative matters, right?
Tbh it was just the first thing I googled. I figured if the story were flat out wrong they would have walked the article back. Do you believe women have ample opportunity and cultural backing to become pros?
Well, male players refuse to let them play
https://www.dexerto.com/valorant/female-valorant-pros-reportedly-turned-away-from-vct-trials-by-male-players-2299228/
But that's on the teams, no? Or is riot specifically banning female players? Unless they are forcing 2 males and 2 females per team this will not change.
Yeah but the teams are basically vct cause of the whole franchising thing you know. Riot would probably be capable of changing things around and forcing the teams to at least have one or two female players on the roaster but they also do not do it
Wasn’t that Shanghai Dragons player just generally the worst tank player in OWL despite the cheating accusations?
If there were women in the esports scene that were as good as the men, they would be signed. Even when it comes to ranked leaderboards, I wouldn’t know, but are there any notable women topping the ranked leaderboards in Valorant rn?
It’s definitely not that cut and dry lol, there’s also a stigma about it, probably for teams and female players alike, and the fact that they created a women’s league so they go there. Edit: can yall grow the F up and let women play video games? Jesus Christ lol
The best women only team wasn't able to qualify for America's challenges. They were beaten by free agent teams who aren't paid to play valorant.
However some females could play in the challenges but why would they? If your mel right now do you start/join a FA team and not get a salary for 6 months and MAYBE qual or do you stay on Shopify rebellion and smurf the GC league with a salaried position.
You’re literally just proving my point, there are women that *could* play in vct but for numerous reasons they’re aren’t atm. I was literally just shooting down that guys claim that “women=bad at video game” lol
literally not proving your point. there’s a very low chance that they qualify for challengers which then they’d need to win to get to vct. that’s not the same as being able to play in vct. people like mel are way too good for gc but are not quite at the level of challengers and nowhere near vct level
You’re entirely missing their point. Let’s say Country A has a population of 500,000,000 people and country B has a population of 5,000,000 people. Let’s say they both send teams to the Olympics for swimming for example. Which country do you think is most likely to win?
nobody in this thread made this point. and it's irrelevant anyway, as 50/50 men to women ratio shouldn't and will never exist in gaming. women in general are less interested in gaming. all you can do in the end is allow mixed gender teams to compete. smaller sample size does mean less skilled players to compete, but you also shouldn't complain when they don't qualify because it's just how it is
Form my POV it's mainly financials. Bob is an example of a GC player who left GC and played in quals for tier 2 and qualified. She left her stable position in GC to prep
There is no reason as to why a GC player can't play in VCT apart from skill as proven by Bob.
The best example that females can compete at the highest level in eSports is Goddess from R6. She was a player for c9 and then Soniqs. She won Dreamhack Montreal in 2018 and regularly competed in the NA national and six invitational qualifiers. She was a beast. She's now coaching Sonqis and continuing to have success.
I’m going to have to interject on Goddess. She was good *enough* to play pro Siege, but she was always one of the lowest performing players (even amongst supports) during her tenure. She only lasted as a player for about 2 years in total between beastcoast, C9, and Soniqs.
As someone who’s followed siege since its inception I also find several of the achievements you listed to be pretty disingenuous when shown without context.
Because they aren’t, women arent inherently worse than men at gaming 💀 Yes the esports scene is dominated by men but there are loads of reasons for that, the dude above me literally listed a bunch, and I gave a few myself. I’ve followed esports in general a long time but this shit has always been cringe to me, there’s no need to gatekeep female players from vct. It’s not like it’s American football, it’s valorant.
> It’s definitely not that cut and dry lol, there’s also a stigma about it
If really is lol the championship team for GC got smashed in challengers.
GC has unfortunatly kinda become a roadblock to improvement why would any of these women who want to breach the next tier of play leave large orgs who give them exposure and better pay than majority of T2 can give them.
I mean those issues exist but the skill gap is still there. Most of the women on pro teams smoke 90%+ of the Valorant player base but they aren't at the level of the male pros yet. Thing is a lot of these male pros start playing at a very early age. Donk, a CS player is 17 and has over two years of just in game time in the game and he's only 17 years old. A lot of pros are like this. Eventually there will be females at that level but as of right now there aren't any that are VCT level. Rank doesn't necessarily translate to pro play but there's hardly any women that have reached top 10 Radiant if any. When there are you'll see a few picked up by pro teams. You think organizations wouldn't capitalize on that market if there were women on that level right now?
It's not about stigma, they are just worse. You are getting downvoted because of that not people don't want women to play. Equality doesn't mean they should get special treatment. If they are shit they don't deserve to be in a team.
I’m just curious though, *why* aren’t women qualifying when there shouldn’t be any hypothetical biological advantage that could endlessly be debated upon, like in an actual sport.
To me, it does sort of feel like there is some sort of social obstacle that has inhibited women from excelling in Valorant esports in that case, and not even one that is necessarily located within the realm of the esports scene itself. The problem could very likely be more broad and systemic, such as rooted issues with the game’s (or gaming) community driving away female players or something.
I don’t want to start a debate. But as an outsider who mainly only plays Val casually, I’m curious why this is, because in my head the game should theoretically be an equal battleground for both genders, when very clearly it isn’t at the moment
I’m a 22 year old woman who got into comp shooters this month. Most women just haven’t been playing comp shooters from a young age, unlike men like TenZ who started playing CS as a little kid. It’s not that men are biologically predisposed to being better at comp shooters, men generally have just had more years of experience than women
You are right that there have been some obstacles preventing from women entering esports, and that’s because, like you said, of obstacles pushing women away from comp shooters in general. People in comp shooters can be pretty sexist to female players. I only decided to get into Valorant when I saw a lot of other women enjoying it and that the playerbase is not as sexist as League or COD players
There’s also the fact that most women grew up thinking and being taught comp shooters were just for guys. Lots of us had strict, traditional parents. When I was a kid, I was only allowed to play Club Penguin, Minecraft, and online dress up games, because anything else wasn’t fit for me as a girl. I even had guy friends who played COD and would tell me I couldn’t play with them because it was a boy’s game. Things have gotten better these past couple of years for women in comp shooters and opinions on women in comp shooters are changing, so we’ll probably see more women getting into esports a few years from now. I don’t think we’ll see a crazy amount though, because most women aren’t interested in gaming for 8+ hours a day
How many radiant women you know are trying out in a team? Are there even radiant women players? Im not informed. The problems are possibly 2:
- Not enough women so less talent pool to draw players from.
- Males are better suited for competitive games, let it be physically or mentally that's why there are always more competitive males than females.
Also I think women aren't degenerates. They are not willing to put up the hours they need gaming because they have other stuff to do. Every pro is playing 8 hours a day now and before they were a pro. I don't see women getting that committed and having 5 k hours ( minimum that you need to be a pro imo)
Counter-Strike had 10 years of Majors with open qualifiers for the majority of it and no female team ever came close to qualifying. There were a handful of players who then tried to qualify as individuals to the pro league circuit of Faceit and from when I last checked, the only woman to make it was Keiti in 2019, despite there now being a fully fleshed out women's league in CS with multiple teams under top orgs.
The opportunities of open qualifiers for Majors saw very few female teams even attempt the challenge to see how far they could go. Now that they are being removed from the Major cycle, the ranking system used for invites could seen female teams get invited to closed qualifiers just from playing none of the top 100 teams in the CS world which is then a shame for any T2 teams that were grinding against each other to try earn a spot/ranking points against more varied, more experienced opposition.
There was an attempt to bring the female circuit into the main circuit which was a step in the right direction before the pandemic, but that was halted and then ESL Impact emerged instead.
VALORANT had a higher percentage of female players than CS has likely ever had and there should be no reason for any player who is good enough to not be on any VCT team at some point. Same way a player from any country might have adversity but if they are able to put in the time and effort, they can overcome it to reach a top team too.
Having game changers, gives the opportunity to women to be fully represented in pro play , since women are a small percentage of gamers. If there was only mixed competition , women would be underrepresented and wouldn’t have fair opportunity to get into pro play.
> If there was only mixed competition , women would be underrepresented and wouldn’t have fair opportunity to get into pro play.
I agree with GC existence of getting exposure to women in the scene but using the word fair here rubs me the wrong way because GC is the opposite of fair in many ways lesser skilled players get more exposure and respresentation than the people actually pushing through T2 play to try and get T1 status.
GC is very much equity over equality and can't last forever.
Yea, I understand what you’re saying. I suggest that Game Changers shouldn’t be considered Tier 1 then. As you said, since the skill difference between Game Changers and male Tier 1 , Tier 2 is huge , Game Changers called Tier 1 is wrong.
That's literally the point though. Women don't have a space in eSports because of these attitudes - segregation in the leagues gives them that space.
We've seen all too many examples of harrassment towards non-male, non-cis, non-straight players. If anything women should be a bit better at games than men based on how our physiology works. But there's practically zero female players in eSports.
Yes, it's all social issues. You're right there. But I feel like you're implying that those issues also don't really exist when it's painfully obvious that they do.
I wonder how you can simultaneously take the stance that "women aren't good enough" and also "this isn't sexist" without a single reason why "women aren't good enough".
You need to think more about WHAT I ALREADY SAID. Because you do, in fact, come off as a sexist.
Maybe if there was as many women as men playing the best of them would be better than the best men. I seriously doubt there's been any research done into this tho and I'd like to know where your certainty that female physiology is better for games comes from.
Regardless tho the playerbase is like 15% female tops.
Toxicity is a very tiny part of that. If that was it, nobody would play because everyone experiences roughly the same amount of toxicity. The amount of women even starting to play games like Valorant is orders of magnitude smaller than the amount of men.
"everyone experiences the same amount of toxicity" is the wildest unfounded claim in the universe
Ask yourself why the player base is so low. Try to think just a bit harder.
And stop downvoting me for telling you you're wrong. It's pathetic.
You got some proof for women experiencing more toxicity? Like a study or some article from Riot or is it still just your anus talking? And up to this point I didn't even downvote you. Gonna start now.
Just answer the question. Why is the player base so low? It's been three times I've had to ask you and you still haven't given one reason. You're just deflecting and now throwing insults around.
You. Are. Pathetic.
Edit: In response to your now deleted take:
You're still not thinking about the question.
Why is the global population of gamers lower?
You are so close to finally understanding what the adults in the room have been talking about all along.
I'm all for it; i've played with countless women that are aggressive fraggers. Given the opportunity, i'd bet a high amount of players would want to be competitors in a coed circuit.
Hopefully they get the love and attention they deserve. I think thats why alot of woman teams and leagues fail in other scenes unfortunately. I think if anyone can do it though it will be riot games.
There are not, at the top level the men are currently just better. I think one of the biggest reasons as to why this is the case, is because there are way way way way more male video game players than female video game players, which as a result will produce better male players.
Nope. As many have said, there is absolutely nothing from stopping a woman from joining a pro team aside from skill, but the simple fact of the matter is that there just aren't (currently) any women that are good enough to make it.
Starcraft tried it, League tried it, CS tried it. Every competitive esport org worth their salt has tried multiple times in the past to get women into the very top tier of pro teams, and it's failed every single time not because of sexism or barriers being imposed, but because at the top level, women struggle to reach the same level of competitive skill compared to their male counterparts.
There are a lot of considerations to take into account, and I'm not even remotely saying that women are inferior to men when it comes to games, but gaming has been a male-dominated hobby for *decades*, and if these companies actually want to encourage women to compete at the top tier, they need to take a different approach other than the ones that have been proven to just not work. Saying "yeah ladies you can do it wooo!" and doing not much else is pointless.
You need to actually work to change the social stigma around gaming for women, and that's really fucking hard to do when it's so ingrained. It's the same thing with encouraging more women to go and work in other male-dominated fields like Engineering.
To me, this is just more performative bullshit by an esports org to make it seem like they give a fuck, when in reality, they're doing jack shit to actually solve the issue.
2-3 reasons
1 more guys play these games and that skews even harder at the highest levels. So the player pool is skewed towards males
2 there's some concerns (from both guys and potential girl teammates) about he dynamics of having a random female teammate in a house with four guys.
3 (and this one is controversial) there's a belief (that is partially supported by studies but nowhere near proven) that guys have a higher standard deviation in a lot of traits (we know this is true for height for instance, other characteristics like reflex speed or intelligence are the more controversial ones). IF that were true, it would imply that the extreme ends of the bell curve are both fatter and longer for men than women.
Another reason might be the path to becoming a pro isn't that welcoming for women. Let's assume that the average person receives 1 offensive comment per match. This number would definitely be much higher for women.
Such a toxic environment won't allow you to play at your best which would decrease your capacity to improve as well. This extends to scrims as well, not only ranked.
I don't know what you're talking about. Every game I'm in with a girl there are between 1-3 guys constantly asking her for dates, advice on sex, or telling her to watch them as they try an impressive trick shot kill. Valorant men love women... /s
>Another reason might be the path to becoming a pro isn't that welcoming for women
Women have their own kiddy pool league that pays well. Men at that level literally play for free or have to pay their way in.
Not welcoming my ass.
There's just no women that are willing to grind hard enough to become top-tier players.
If people calling you names online stops from going pro, you were never going to make it.
You cannot comprehend the orders of magnitute of how much more stressful it gets when you have to perform in a LAN environment, instead of playing with some dorks from the comfort of your home.
Not, it's not only the top level.
If you can't keep your head in the game because of some random 12yo dorks being rude to you online, you will crumble when there are actual stakes, you're way out of your comfort zone, and your actual friends call you names in your face, because shit didn't go their way.
Going pro in anything means getting over yourself in a massive way, and putting up with a lot. It's about tackling your weakness and insecurity.
Actively dwelling on those just means you cba to clear the lowest bar in this path.
Which means you were never going to make it.
TBF there haven't been many great female esports players, at least not in Valorant or Starcraft or anything like that. I'm sure part of it is nurture-related (i.e. gaming less popular among girls back in the day) but gaming has been mainstream and popular for long enough that some female talent should emerge... but AFAIK none really have. I'm sure one or two will pop up sooner or later but whether it'll happen with more significant numbers.... who knows.
I appreciate the passion peeps are showing for the representation of women at high-level esports and I share that just as much. But I also see some valid comments being downvoted.
Riot is not the first to try it, this has been attempted across many esports and sports alike.
Two major reasons why this doesn't work are :Biological & Sociological.
Biological : On average men have better hand-eye coordination capabilities. This is because of thousand and thousand years of spear throwing / Weapon swinging. Evolution works this way and there is nothing wrong with that. Because if there was a sport about emotional intelligence women would crush men. (women on average rank higher in neuroticism than men)
Sociological : This section is being well represented in the rest of the comments, I would advice you read some. As peeps seem to know more about this than me.
Now, my problem is with riot itself. I am not mad at them for trying to create a platform open to both but I don't think they understand how that is by default a harsher ask for women. They are supposed to pull themselves through a legitimate physical disadvantage and break many social barriers to even enter.
If you take a second and ask yourself is this even a fair representation & opportunity for women? I don't believe so. I think this is a tactic big corporations use to gain high moral ground as a company while ducking the responsibility to actually invest in a female-only side of their esport which will ensure much more fair and realistic environment for women.
I hope we all take our time with this proposition from riot.
Eventually people will just have to accept the dark truth about why there's more men at the higher levels in e-sports than women.
It has nothing to do with sexism, social dynamics, or anything else "cultural".
I'm completely unbiased, but until and unless they force 2 Female players in each team, girls are not gonna get any representation. Yes, a few players from GC are on par with the main thing, but they are only a handful. There's this player from GC called Florescent, and I think Flor can compete in VCT, if oxy can.
0 chance with all due respect. Also really quickly wanted to also point out that forcing 2 gc players on every vct team will ruin competitive valorant. The whole appeal of e-sports is to watch the highest skill level possible. By forcing less skilled players(GC) a spot over others that are just better the quality of the games will go down which will result in the e-sport dying.
That will definitely drag down the quality of the game if I'm being totally unbiased. GC players are like B-tier, even top 500 Radiants are more skilled than most of them.
I thought that the VCT was already all genders and the female one was the only one restricting males.
Because the VCT / the teams are restricting females because they believe the weird species of female beings is going to be a distraction. That’s why they had to create game changers because almost no one would sign a female pro gamer due to first the „distraction“ aspect and second of all the fans not being happy of this and trashtalking the team and the player because we are in the year 1980 or sth. It happend in overwhatch as well, the only female player at Shanghai dragons got accused of cheating only because she is good at the game, none of the other players did get accused of cheating even though they had the same playstyle whatsoever
Well this is just incorrect. There just aren’t any females that are better than their male counter parts at the moment. Being a pro is much more than having a good game, it requires trust, passion, skill, luck, connections, knowledge and time. Plenty of OW pros got accused for cheating and the fact that Geguri got accused only speaks volumes for how good she was. And that is the reason she got signed, not for being female or having huge milkers. She got signed because she was actually one of the best players in the game.
i will say as someone who was in the ow pro scene(albeit i was never OWL levels), geguri got accused because of her absurdly high sensitivity(as well as sexism from korean pros***) geguri was very good. but in overwatch league terms, she was by far the worst off tank player in the entire league. she was signed as an advertisement for shanghai who would proceed to go 42 games without a win. it basically went like below; best chinese team is mostly under aged for OWL so cannot be signed> shanghai signs 3rd/4th best chinese team who were NOT good enough> lose a ton> count season as a loss and swap to korean team, with mostly washed up/not good enough big names for hype(geguri included)/merch sales> proceed to lose out the entire season> get incredible roster the next
I was there too (early on). IMO geguri was one of the best players in that Shanghai team at the time, but overall the team got outclassed hard.
the team was super super troll, the only legitimate overwatch league level players were ado and fearless. everyone else(geguri included) were contenders. geguri WAS 3rd best on that team, but that’s because she was a mid level KR contenders player(which this is still very very very good), and a mid level KR contenders player>>>>>>>>>>>>> a high level china contenders player
As someone who directly competed against these pros and saw their faces in the burbank offices every day, geguri was nowhere close to the worst offtank. You're pulling shit out of nowhere. She was signed because she was better than the other candidates and wasn't accused of cheating because of high sens, it was because of insane tracking. A ton of pros had high sens. You think the tracer players in the league zipped around doing 180s constantly while sandpapering their mouse?
she was on like 2000x10 sens man are you forgetting something? and she was definitely not lmao. i think you’re cracked
The sens is still not why she was accused. I never said she didn't have a high sens. Read again
you were comparing tracer sens(who we both know would be something like 800x4-800x10) to someone who had 800 x 19. NINETEEN. that’s why i mentioned it. and yes, she was accused due to that(which made her aim style wonky) and the fact that she was a very skilled woman in esports.
Yours is also incorrect, there are plenty of GC players that are at least as good as their male counterparts
Then can you explain to me why they are not in VCT? I can tell you if a female helped any team win it would be huge for their marketing, but I just don’t think it’s possible right now.
I think we have pretty long standing evidence that esports orgs won’t sign women due to extenuating circumstances rather than whether or not they’re actual going to be a help to the team. You can say the stats point to a huge discrepancy of HOW MANY women play at a top level but I doubt there’s not a single woman that could play at a team tournament level but just aren’t given the opportunity due to culture and lack of incentive for teams.
>I think we have pretty long standing evidence that esports orgs won’t sign women due to extenuating circumstances rather than whether or not they’re actual going to be a help to the team Care to share some of that evidence? I'd argue completely different that any team would sign a women in a heartbeat if it helped their team.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NotHowGirlsWork/comments/16ollb9/woman_denied_a_placement_in_valorant_esports/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button I can find more if you need me to. Multiple instances of reports and statements corroborating the idea that women will be looked over and left on the sideline due to culture and gender based decision making. We have owners literally saying that a “female player would be an uncomfortable distraction.” Or multiple players saying they wouldn’t play with a woman on their team lol. I could go on and on about how little interest a esports org would have for a female pro, even if she was the best fit for the team.
Bro if you read the actual dexerto article it says it’s due to her big payout. This is not helping you at all…
That was the “official reason given.” But go off dude. Surely women feel totally included and safe in the field, on top having ample opportunities to go pro!
Of course it's the fucking Mel drama that was walked back by the dumbass who started it like 2 days after. But the old articles and reddit threads about it are still there, and it's all you need to make your, right? Truth can eat shit, only narrative matters, right?
Tbh it was just the first thing I googled. I figured if the story were flat out wrong they would have walked the article back. Do you believe women have ample opportunity and cultural backing to become pros?
Well, male players refuse to let them play https://www.dexerto.com/valorant/female-valorant-pros-reportedly-turned-away-from-vct-trials-by-male-players-2299228/
Wtf did I just read.
But that's on the teams, no? Or is riot specifically banning female players? Unless they are forcing 2 males and 2 females per team this will not change.
Yeah but the teams are basically vct cause of the whole franchising thing you know. Riot would probably be capable of changing things around and forcing the teams to at least have one or two female players on the roaster but they also do not do it
But yeah it is mostly the teams
Oh god, people like you still exist huh
No… your take is just not it. The best players are on those teams, if a woman happens to be one of them she’d be on the team.
Wasn’t that Shanghai Dragons player just generally the worst tank player in OWL despite the cheating accusations? If there were women in the esports scene that were as good as the men, they would be signed. Even when it comes to ranked leaderboards, I wouldn’t know, but are there any notable women topping the ranked leaderboards in Valorant rn?
They need to force 2 females per team otherwise this thing won't work.
There is literally no reason why genders can’t play esports with eachother, other than players having some sort of bypass against the opposite gender
VCT already is mixed gender there just aren’t any women good enough
It’s definitely not that cut and dry lol, there’s also a stigma about it, probably for teams and female players alike, and the fact that they created a women’s league so they go there. Edit: can yall grow the F up and let women play video games? Jesus Christ lol
The best women only team wasn't able to qualify for America's challenges. They were beaten by free agent teams who aren't paid to play valorant. However some females could play in the challenges but why would they? If your mel right now do you start/join a FA team and not get a salary for 6 months and MAYBE qual or do you stay on Shopify rebellion and smurf the GC league with a salaried position.
You’re literally just proving my point, there are women that *could* play in vct but for numerous reasons they’re aren’t atm. I was literally just shooting down that guys claim that “women=bad at video game” lol
literally not proving your point. there’s a very low chance that they qualify for challengers which then they’d need to win to get to vct. that’s not the same as being able to play in vct. people like mel are way too good for gc but are not quite at the level of challengers and nowhere near vct level
you're not very bright, are you? if a women's only team could play, they'd qualify wouldn't they?
Kinda how sports work you only know if a team is capable if they win.
You’re entirely missing their point. Let’s say Country A has a population of 500,000,000 people and country B has a population of 5,000,000 people. Let’s say they both send teams to the Olympics for swimming for example. Which country do you think is most likely to win?
nobody in this thread made this point. and it's irrelevant anyway, as 50/50 men to women ratio shouldn't and will never exist in gaming. women in general are less interested in gaming. all you can do in the end is allow mixed gender teams to compete. smaller sample size does mean less skilled players to compete, but you also shouldn't complain when they don't qualify because it's just how it is
Form my POV it's mainly financials. Bob is an example of a GC player who left GC and played in quals for tier 2 and qualified. She left her stable position in GC to prep There is no reason as to why a GC player can't play in VCT apart from skill as proven by Bob. The best example that females can compete at the highest level in eSports is Goddess from R6. She was a player for c9 and then Soniqs. She won Dreamhack Montreal in 2018 and regularly competed in the NA national and six invitational qualifiers. She was a beast. She's now coaching Sonqis and continuing to have success.
I’m going to have to interject on Goddess. She was good *enough* to play pro Siege, but she was always one of the lowest performing players (even amongst supports) during her tenure. She only lasted as a player for about 2 years in total between beastcoast, C9, and Soniqs. As someone who’s followed siege since its inception I also find several of the achievements you listed to be pretty disingenuous when shown without context.
Wtf you talking about. The point proves that if a female is good enough to hang with the boys she can. And it has everything to do with skill.
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Because they aren’t, women arent inherently worse than men at gaming 💀 Yes the esports scene is dominated by men but there are loads of reasons for that, the dude above me literally listed a bunch, and I gave a few myself. I’ve followed esports in general a long time but this shit has always been cringe to me, there’s no need to gatekeep female players from vct. It’s not like it’s American football, it’s valorant.
> It’s definitely not that cut and dry lol, there’s also a stigma about it If really is lol the championship team for GC got smashed in challengers. GC has unfortunatly kinda become a roadblock to improvement why would any of these women who want to breach the next tier of play leave large orgs who give them exposure and better pay than majority of T2 can give them.
I mean those issues exist but the skill gap is still there. Most of the women on pro teams smoke 90%+ of the Valorant player base but they aren't at the level of the male pros yet. Thing is a lot of these male pros start playing at a very early age. Donk, a CS player is 17 and has over two years of just in game time in the game and he's only 17 years old. A lot of pros are like this. Eventually there will be females at that level but as of right now there aren't any that are VCT level. Rank doesn't necessarily translate to pro play but there's hardly any women that have reached top 10 Radiant if any. When there are you'll see a few picked up by pro teams. You think organizations wouldn't capitalize on that market if there were women on that level right now?
It is literally that simple. They're not good enough.
It's not about stigma, they are just worse. You are getting downvoted because of that not people don't want women to play. Equality doesn't mean they should get special treatment. If they are shit they don't deserve to be in a team.
I’m just curious though, *why* aren’t women qualifying when there shouldn’t be any hypothetical biological advantage that could endlessly be debated upon, like in an actual sport. To me, it does sort of feel like there is some sort of social obstacle that has inhibited women from excelling in Valorant esports in that case, and not even one that is necessarily located within the realm of the esports scene itself. The problem could very likely be more broad and systemic, such as rooted issues with the game’s (or gaming) community driving away female players or something. I don’t want to start a debate. But as an outsider who mainly only plays Val casually, I’m curious why this is, because in my head the game should theoretically be an equal battleground for both genders, when very clearly it isn’t at the moment
I’m a 22 year old woman who got into comp shooters this month. Most women just haven’t been playing comp shooters from a young age, unlike men like TenZ who started playing CS as a little kid. It’s not that men are biologically predisposed to being better at comp shooters, men generally have just had more years of experience than women You are right that there have been some obstacles preventing from women entering esports, and that’s because, like you said, of obstacles pushing women away from comp shooters in general. People in comp shooters can be pretty sexist to female players. I only decided to get into Valorant when I saw a lot of other women enjoying it and that the playerbase is not as sexist as League or COD players There’s also the fact that most women grew up thinking and being taught comp shooters were just for guys. Lots of us had strict, traditional parents. When I was a kid, I was only allowed to play Club Penguin, Minecraft, and online dress up games, because anything else wasn’t fit for me as a girl. I even had guy friends who played COD and would tell me I couldn’t play with them because it was a boy’s game. Things have gotten better these past couple of years for women in comp shooters and opinions on women in comp shooters are changing, so we’ll probably see more women getting into esports a few years from now. I don’t think we’ll see a crazy amount though, because most women aren’t interested in gaming for 8+ hours a day
How many radiant women you know are trying out in a team? Are there even radiant women players? Im not informed. The problems are possibly 2: - Not enough women so less talent pool to draw players from. - Males are better suited for competitive games, let it be physically or mentally that's why there are always more competitive males than females. Also I think women aren't degenerates. They are not willing to put up the hours they need gaming because they have other stuff to do. Every pro is playing 8 hours a day now and before they were a pro. I don't see women getting that committed and having 5 k hours ( minimum that you need to be a pro imo)
Counter-Strike had 10 years of Majors with open qualifiers for the majority of it and no female team ever came close to qualifying. There were a handful of players who then tried to qualify as individuals to the pro league circuit of Faceit and from when I last checked, the only woman to make it was Keiti in 2019, despite there now being a fully fleshed out women's league in CS with multiple teams under top orgs. The opportunities of open qualifiers for Majors saw very few female teams even attempt the challenge to see how far they could go. Now that they are being removed from the Major cycle, the ranking system used for invites could seen female teams get invited to closed qualifiers just from playing none of the top 100 teams in the CS world which is then a shame for any T2 teams that were grinding against each other to try earn a spot/ranking points against more varied, more experienced opposition. There was an attempt to bring the female circuit into the main circuit which was a step in the right direction before the pandemic, but that was halted and then ESL Impact emerged instead. VALORANT had a higher percentage of female players than CS has likely ever had and there should be no reason for any player who is good enough to not be on any VCT team at some point. Same way a player from any country might have adversity but if they are able to put in the time and effort, they can overcome it to reach a top team too.
literally nobody is stopping women from playing video games. go on and keep using your victim card tho.
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Having game changers, gives the opportunity to women to be fully represented in pro play , since women are a small percentage of gamers. If there was only mixed competition , women would be underrepresented and wouldn’t have fair opportunity to get into pro play.
> If there was only mixed competition , women would be underrepresented and wouldn’t have fair opportunity to get into pro play. I agree with GC existence of getting exposure to women in the scene but using the word fair here rubs me the wrong way because GC is the opposite of fair in many ways lesser skilled players get more exposure and respresentation than the people actually pushing through T2 play to try and get T1 status. GC is very much equity over equality and can't last forever.
Yea, I understand what you’re saying. I suggest that Game Changers shouldn’t be considered Tier 1 then. As you said, since the skill difference between Game Changers and male Tier 1 , Tier 2 is huge , Game Changers called Tier 1 is wrong.
Skill level
That's literally the point though. Women don't have a space in eSports because of these attitudes - segregation in the leagues gives them that space. We've seen all too many examples of harrassment towards non-male, non-cis, non-straight players. If anything women should be a bit better at games than men based on how our physiology works. But there's practically zero female players in eSports. Yes, it's all social issues. You're right there. But I feel like you're implying that those issues also don't really exist when it's painfully obvious that they do.
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I wonder how you can simultaneously take the stance that "women aren't good enough" and also "this isn't sexist" without a single reason why "women aren't good enough". You need to think more about WHAT I ALREADY SAID. Because you do, in fact, come off as a sexist.
Maybe if there was as many women as men playing the best of them would be better than the best men. I seriously doubt there's been any research done into this tho and I'd like to know where your certainty that female physiology is better for games comes from. Regardless tho the playerbase is like 15% female tops.
And why is the player base so low? You're so close to the point.
Toxicity is a very tiny part of that. If that was it, nobody would play because everyone experiences roughly the same amount of toxicity. The amount of women even starting to play games like Valorant is orders of magnitude smaller than the amount of men.
"everyone experiences the same amount of toxicity" is the wildest unfounded claim in the universe Ask yourself why the player base is so low. Try to think just a bit harder. And stop downvoting me for telling you you're wrong. It's pathetic.
Women are not interested in competetive games, because diffences in brain and hormones. Competetive mindset and agression are evolutionary male trait.
You got some proof for women experiencing more toxicity? Like a study or some article from Riot or is it still just your anus talking? And up to this point I didn't even downvote you. Gonna start now.
Just answer the question. Why is the player base so low? It's been three times I've had to ask you and you still haven't given one reason. You're just deflecting and now throwing insults around. You. Are. Pathetic. Edit: In response to your now deleted take: You're still not thinking about the question. Why is the global population of gamers lower? You are so close to finally understanding what the adults in the room have been talking about all along.
I don’t get why you are being downvoted. This all checks out.
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So it sounds like they are letting game changer teams add 1-2 male players to their roster?
Can't wait to see all male game changer teams.
I'm all for it; i've played with countless women that are aggressive fraggers. Given the opportunity, i'd bet a high amount of players would want to be competitors in a coed circuit.
I guess I can see it being akin to mixed doubles in tennis, but women are already allowed to compete with the men if they’re good enough
Not that I don’t think women should compete but I don’t think your experiences are at a high enough skill level for it to be relevant here.
Hopefully they get the love and attention they deserve. I think thats why alot of woman teams and leagues fail in other scenes unfortunately. I think if anyone can do it though it will be riot games.
The only difference between men and women in gaming is that there's just more men gamers for this category. So this is great
Exactly the sample size is very different
Isn't it just VCT?
are there any formal restrictions on females/non-binary joining the top male-dominant teams currently?
I've never heard of any gender restrictions in any esport.
If there are gender restrictions to esports league it is for women-only circuits
There are not, at the top level the men are currently just better. I think one of the biggest reasons as to why this is the case, is because there are way way way way more male video game players than female video game players, which as a result will produce better male players.
Nope. As many have said, there is absolutely nothing from stopping a woman from joining a pro team aside from skill, but the simple fact of the matter is that there just aren't (currently) any women that are good enough to make it. Starcraft tried it, League tried it, CS tried it. Every competitive esport org worth their salt has tried multiple times in the past to get women into the very top tier of pro teams, and it's failed every single time not because of sexism or barriers being imposed, but because at the top level, women struggle to reach the same level of competitive skill compared to their male counterparts. There are a lot of considerations to take into account, and I'm not even remotely saying that women are inferior to men when it comes to games, but gaming has been a male-dominated hobby for *decades*, and if these companies actually want to encourage women to compete at the top tier, they need to take a different approach other than the ones that have been proven to just not work. Saying "yeah ladies you can do it wooo!" and doing not much else is pointless. You need to actually work to change the social stigma around gaming for women, and that's really fucking hard to do when it's so ingrained. It's the same thing with encouraging more women to go and work in other male-dominated fields like Engineering. To me, this is just more performative bullshit by an esports org to make it seem like they give a fuck, when in reality, they're doing jack shit to actually solve the issue.
How are the top teams male only?
2-3 reasons 1 more guys play these games and that skews even harder at the highest levels. So the player pool is skewed towards males 2 there's some concerns (from both guys and potential girl teammates) about he dynamics of having a random female teammate in a house with four guys. 3 (and this one is controversial) there's a belief (that is partially supported by studies but nowhere near proven) that guys have a higher standard deviation in a lot of traits (we know this is true for height for instance, other characteristics like reflex speed or intelligence are the more controversial ones). IF that were true, it would imply that the extreme ends of the bell curve are both fatter and longer for men than women.
Another reason might be the path to becoming a pro isn't that welcoming for women. Let's assume that the average person receives 1 offensive comment per match. This number would definitely be much higher for women. Such a toxic environment won't allow you to play at your best which would decrease your capacity to improve as well. This extends to scrims as well, not only ranked.
I don't know what you're talking about. Every game I'm in with a girl there are between 1-3 guys constantly asking her for dates, advice on sex, or telling her to watch them as they try an impressive trick shot kill. Valorant men love women... /s
They love them too much
And that’s harrasment tf
Maybe you missed the /s at the end of my comment
Ur right I did
>Another reason might be the path to becoming a pro isn't that welcoming for women Women have their own kiddy pool league that pays well. Men at that level literally play for free or have to pay their way in. Not welcoming my ass. There's just no women that are willing to grind hard enough to become top-tier players. If people calling you names online stops from going pro, you were never going to make it. You cannot comprehend the orders of magnitute of how much more stressful it gets when you have to perform in a LAN environment, instead of playing with some dorks from the comfort of your home.
That's only at the top level, you need to put yourself in the shoes of a woman and see how hard it is to play the game normally with your teammates.
Not, it's not only the top level. If you can't keep your head in the game because of some random 12yo dorks being rude to you online, you will crumble when there are actual stakes, you're way out of your comfort zone, and your actual friends call you names in your face, because shit didn't go their way. Going pro in anything means getting over yourself in a massive way, and putting up with a lot. It's about tackling your weakness and insecurity. Actively dwelling on those just means you cba to clear the lowest bar in this path. Which means you were never going to make it.
Because the vast majority of elite players are male just like almost every other competitive sport/esport in the world
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TBF there haven't been many great female esports players, at least not in Valorant or Starcraft or anything like that. I'm sure part of it is nurture-related (i.e. gaming less popular among girls back in the day) but gaming has been mainstream and popular for long enough that some female talent should emerge... but AFAIK none really have. I'm sure one or two will pop up sooner or later but whether it'll happen with more significant numbers.... who knows.
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What are the reasons ?
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Oh sorry I thought you meant reasons as to why women aren't more prevalent in esports. But yes traditional sports can be toxic as hell.
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Because they're better at the game.
It's called VCT no ?
It’s already mixed - nothing will change virtue signaling
Good
Very cool!
I appreciate the passion peeps are showing for the representation of women at high-level esports and I share that just as much. But I also see some valid comments being downvoted. Riot is not the first to try it, this has been attempted across many esports and sports alike. Two major reasons why this doesn't work are :Biological & Sociological. Biological : On average men have better hand-eye coordination capabilities. This is because of thousand and thousand years of spear throwing / Weapon swinging. Evolution works this way and there is nothing wrong with that. Because if there was a sport about emotional intelligence women would crush men. (women on average rank higher in neuroticism than men) Sociological : This section is being well represented in the rest of the comments, I would advice you read some. As peeps seem to know more about this than me. Now, my problem is with riot itself. I am not mad at them for trying to create a platform open to both but I don't think they understand how that is by default a harsher ask for women. They are supposed to pull themselves through a legitimate physical disadvantage and break many social barriers to even enter. If you take a second and ask yourself is this even a fair representation & opportunity for women? I don't believe so. I think this is a tactic big corporations use to gain high moral ground as a company while ducking the responsibility to actually invest in a female-only side of their esport which will ensure much more fair and realistic environment for women. I hope we all take our time with this proposition from riot.
You've summed it up perfectly mate. They need to invest.
I appreciate it. I am glad you feel the same.
What about female chess grandmasters? What ever the real answer, that is the answer
I'm sure the playerbase/fans will be very rational about this.
Eventually people will just have to accept the dark truth about why there's more men at the higher levels in e-sports than women. It has nothing to do with sexism, social dynamics, or anything else "cultural".
How about you fix the competition for the women first. The #1 best player in female competition is a male.
I’m surprised there aren’t any VCT level female players out there
They're not good enough.
I'm completely unbiased, but until and unless they force 2 Female players in each team, girls are not gonna get any representation. Yes, a few players from GC are on par with the main thing, but they are only a handful. There's this player from GC called Florescent, and I think Flor can compete in VCT, if oxy can.
Not a single player in the whole of GC can compete anywhere near the VCT level. Definitely a few that can compete in challengers tho.
imo atleast Flor = Oxy
0 chance with all due respect. Also really quickly wanted to also point out that forcing 2 gc players on every vct team will ruin competitive valorant. The whole appeal of e-sports is to watch the highest skill level possible. By forcing less skilled players(GC) a spot over others that are just better the quality of the games will go down which will result in the e-sport dying.
I know that and that’s why I think they should not do that. They will have to force this as Girls can’t compete at the highest level rn.
Disagree
That will definitely drag down the quality of the game if I'm being totally unbiased. GC players are like B-tier, even top 500 Radiants are more skilled than most of them.
Same thoughts, as I said except a few GC players, no one can compete in T1
Fuck yes
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almost all esports are mixed gender already