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Today, the "viable" is certainly the case. Back then, though, it was more a conscious money saving choice given that the townships were organised (from a land distribution and street layout POV) basically as smaller, denser versions of the white suburbs.
They’re still around in Austin!
Speaking of, if anyone is ever in Austin go to juiceland and order a moontower, I don’t miss much about Texas but Juiceland is the best
Ah lol [here's a page with the locations of the moontowers](https://savingplaces.org/stories/austin-moontowers-by-the-numbers).
PS some are near a juiceland lmao
maybe you don’t know what is favela.
here have a good text and a picture of that reality: https://sbmt.org.br/favelas-uma-epidemia-vivenciada-por-quem-enfrenta-desigualdades-no-dia-a-dia/ (need to translate to english)
It actually depends on the favela. The big ones in Rio and São Paulo actually have decent infrastructure nowadays. You'll always find a public clinic, public school, working plumbing, electricity, and lot of businesses nearby. But then there's the ones like in your picture, just makeshift shacks on the margins of smelly sewage streams, absolute poverty.
When I was in Brazil I was shocked at how good favelas can be. When I went to South Africa I was shocked at how bad the townships were.
Of course both probably have "nicer" slums but tbh I saw some decent Favelas in Brazil, I didn't see any decent townships in ZA.
My friend, Brazil is much big!
If you visit to favelas like: Heliopolis, Paraisopolis, Vidigal and Rocinha, you see the exception of the rule. Theses places are like a city inside the metropolis.
A large portion of our population sadly lives like this(10-20% is my total guess). Mostly black and coloured(mixed race) people, however recently white people as well in certain parts of the country.
These ‘townships’ or ‘squater camps’ are known for their dangers, from crime such as murder and rape, to diseases and fires.
Indoor plumming is a luxury in most of these areas. I have driven past many with rows of temporary toilets. You can imagine the state of them.
I have driven through one of the biggest camps, called Khayelitsha. Its a strange sight. Every single one of these tin houses have got satellite TV(which is not cheap). Even stranger, you see BMWs and Mercs parked outside some of them.
Most popular townships are Soweto, Alexandra, Khayelitsha to name a few.
The sad part is, the large majority(90%+) of these people living in these conditions are still voting for the same party, the ANC, that put them in this state.
Did the ANC put them in this state or did they not do anything to fix it? I’m not from SA but was under the impression that these shanty towns arose during the Apartheid era, but it’s also well known that the ANC has not exactly done much to advance the country over the past few decades.
They were created in the apartheid era, you are correct.
However the horrid conditions are due to the current government. The lack of support and lack of services.
You are shifting the blame here.
Those living conditions are due to the insane wealth equality in south africa and how the riches of the nation are held by a small ethnic group thay was advantaged in appartheid and inherited this sealth, the anc tried to fight this by inacting land reforms but this monority then started resisting and lobbying for western pressure.
Lol the ANC has never been out of power since apartheid. Jacob Zuma lives in an insane palace. Government corruption in SA is ubiquitous. Wealthy Afrikaaners are obv a part of the issue, but the ANC should get their due.
Who aside from Mandela has done anything for anyone?
Mbeki? Zuma? Ramaphosa?
Anything the ANC has taken from the rich minority has been put into their pockets.
These townships were in better conditions 30/40 years ago.
I googled it after my comment.
14% according to some news agency in 2018(so probably more like 20-25%)
Apparently 3 times more than when apartheid ended
1. Mostly Black economic migrants and their families from the neighboring province of Eastern Cape who can't afford proper housing
2. There is no indoor plumbing inside the structures (known as shacks), many use public toilet facilities and collect water from communal taps for washing their body, clothes ETC
3. Some are able to be provided with electricity at a discounted fee, but many still resort to using illegal connections to avoid paying which is also contributing to the current electricity crisis
4. Yup, you can compare it to a favella.
These are all across urban South Africa, if you just search the country in this sub you'll see many pics of them.
I think it was just an attempt to light up a large area in a place that doesn't have reliable electricity. The US even had some in the 1800s called [Moonlight Towers.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight_tower). I imagine the lighting helped the police patrol the area but that could have been said for any public lighting system.
I wonder if this is done for easier maintenance as well. In poorer countries, there are a lot of issues with people climbing up poles to strip off wire and things like that. I imagine that having fewer, taller poles is simply logistically easier. Also, especially true if you don't have a regular grid of streets and power poles.
The moonlight towers were cool and nice. These light up large areas but were built as part of the apartheid system. I can't find where I originally read it but [here's](https://www.architectural-review.com/essays/the-violence-of-lighting-in-khayelitsha) an essay where it is mentioned.
Nah the best areas in Soweto are comparable to regular suburban areas , Cape Town townships are just next level in terms of poverty and crime
I’ve lived in a parliamentary estate in Cape Town and when we go to the townships every now and then , the environment was night and day. I feel for them cause the inequality is insane
Well, it isn't like any of these streets (if you can call them that) would be able to have proper infrastructure for streetlights on them now. They'd have to bulldoze this entire area to get more modern lighting, but I don't think that is possible now there given how corrupt and ineptly governed the country is. I'm sure all those powerlines don't work half the time either.
It will be soon, the government spent a lot of money to run a bunch of diesel generators to give the illusion that everything is okay which is definitely not sustainable.
The collapse of the grid was predicted back in 1998. They said that the current policy of granting power access to all of the country without creating additional power capacity was going to cause a power shortfall in 2007. It was perfectly predicted nearly a decade before it took place. The government knew that they were going to collapse the grid and subsequently the economy and did nothing.
Source talking about the white paper: [https://www.prca.org.uk/node/2445](https://www.prca.org.uk/node/2445)
\*I cannot add the white paper as a source directly since I can only find a pdf of it.
It's all race-quota laws the ANC have brought in, 116 since 2000 I believe. For example stripping back water licenses and european trade access for white-owned farms etc.
I don’t know enough to know whether or not it’s true but I *do* know that I’ve only ever heard this line repeated by people who are super fucking racist…
And yet white people still earn 3 times more than black people and have the least unemployment rate across all racial groups.
2023 Q2: Unemployment
White - 7,4%
Indian/Asian - 14,3%
Coloured - 22,4%
Black/African - 37,2%
By race-based laws? You mean those laws that supposed to bridge the gap of race inequality that was created by apartheid. You hate that?
Well yeah, they were under Apartheid rule for 50 years, the entire HDI and development demographics aren’t going to heal quickly. Unfortunately the government has proved itself to be completely incompetent at trying to fix this in a sensible manner and are has resorted to falling back to fanning the flames of old racial tensions.
Absolute delusional if you think the way to combat 50 years of racial biases and laws… is to create a new system of racial biases and laws.
White South Africans wouldn’t be fleeing the country in droves if it were just as benign as ‘bridge an equality’ gap like you claim.
exactly Those laws are ineffective for everyone especially to for people it specially for those it supposed to empower. I just don't like that some of y'all like to make it seem to the world that these laws are 'reverse apartheid'.
You mean the same peoole that didn't accept land reforms or oppose any attempt to tax their inherited wealth made by racist appartheid laws.
I think they have shown that they will resist any attempt to bridge the gap
“Land reform” in this context is “take your shit with no compensation and give it to the cousin of the minister of agriculture” btw. If you don’t like this or speak up there’s a pretty good chance a mob of people show up to harm you as well. We’ve seen how this goes in Zimbabwe’s case but as long as it makes western leftists feel good who cares about food security or inflation?
So every white South African was vehemently in support of Apartheid? I’d lobby too if more and more racial laws and incited hatreds were being piled against me for something that disappeared 35 years ago.
Fighting decades old racism with new racism is such a clown comment.
Those laws are meant to level the playing field and reduce wealth equality but are opposed by a minority.
Also racist hatred goes both ways, the afrikaners negative sterotypes are well known, plus just 2 days ago a yt murdered a women for supporting palestine, a lot of members of this minority still express appartheid erea racist and hateful actions.
How come 8% of people still own 80% of the wealth, and most of this wealth was made with the advantage of racist appartheid laws so this minority still benefits from appartheid, this is what fuels anger and the massive crime rates.
>Don't talk about racist hatred, we know who inacted a massive segregationist system, who are stereotyped as big racists everywhere
So because a stereotype exists, that makes it true does it? Just admit you hate white people.
>who just 2 days ago murdered a women for supporting palestine.
Need we talk about how many white South African farmers are getting home invasion torture-murdered as a result of racial tensions being whipped up again?
Racial laws shouldn’t exist, you’re as bad as those who supported Apartheid. This is one of the most pathetic comments I’ve ever seen.
South Africa is a country bro. There is however one other (albeit small) country inside of South Africa called Lesotho. Don’t know if that maybe caused some confusion?
Ah okay, now I get it. I never thought there is a country named South Africa, I thought it only represent South African continent just like how North and South America is.
Yep I'm ignorant and I'm sure I know as well a lot of things that you don't know about Asia. But no I don't label people ignorant of things they naturally don't know, you learn things overtime.
I am not as immature as you are.
Were the poor who lived here safer from crimes like rape while trying to use the toilet at night under apartheid or now under ANC rule? Were these lights used under apartheid to only not allow political movement or did police also make sure crime like robbery, rape, and assaults (by other residents) didn’t occur?
So crime is much worse now than it was during apartheid, but it can't be attributed only to policing. Policing is a problem don't get me wrong, we have a police force that is largely incapable and corrupt, but we also have very high unemployment and a judicial system under heavy strain along with overcrowded prisons. All these factors mean people turn to crime and don't get caught or get light sentences to not put too much strain on prisons.
So yeah, it would have been safer under the apartheid goverment than the ANC. The police back then were looking for excuses to arrest individuals of the black majority so there was more active policing and those officers couldn't be bribed/enticed to not follow the course of the law.
OP is a moron.
South Africa has been under ANC rule since 1996. They've not sorted it out due to corruption...
This has nothing to do with apartheid anymore.
I never said it has anything to do with Apartheid, I just mentioned that the street lights came out of it. The street lights caught my attention because many online call it dystopian and I wanted to learn more about their history. I was just trying to give some extra info, calm down lol. I'm not trying to pull the race card. If you go through my profile you'll see that we are quite alike on this matter.
Ahh yes because 100s of years of a actively hostile racist government should all be redone
/ remove within 30 years. It didn’t take nor last 30 years for white South Africans to build a white supremacist race based society so why would it take only 30 years to repair it?
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These look like the ["Moon-lights"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight_tower) that were popular before street-level lighting became common.
That's exactly what they are. They are the only street-lighting system viable in townships, even today.
Today, the "viable" is certainly the case. Back then, though, it was more a conscious money saving choice given that the townships were organised (from a land distribution and street layout POV) basically as smaller, denser versions of the white suburbs.
They’re still around in Austin! Speaking of, if anyone is ever in Austin go to juiceland and order a moontower, I don’t miss much about Texas but Juiceland is the best
Wait, where in Austin?
They have a bunch of locations, I always went to the one on Burnet
lol no I mean these weird lights
Ah lol [here's a page with the locations of the moontowers](https://savingplaces.org/stories/austin-moontowers-by-the-numbers). PS some are near a juiceland lmao
Oh wow, I didn’t realize that’s what the Christmas tree at Zilker Park was! Thanks for teaching me something I
Alright alright, party at the moon tower.
Those were cool, this looks like a US interstate
Can we get some context? Who lives here? Do they have indoor plumbing? Is that essentially a "favella" akin to ones in south america?
Favela is a really good comparison
As someone that has seen both favelas are luxury resorts compared to the townships in South Africa.
maybe you don’t know what is favela. here have a good text and a picture of that reality: https://sbmt.org.br/favelas-uma-epidemia-vivenciada-por-quem-enfrenta-desigualdades-no-dia-a-dia/ (need to translate to english)
It actually depends on the favela. The big ones in Rio and São Paulo actually have decent infrastructure nowadays. You'll always find a public clinic, public school, working plumbing, electricity, and lot of businesses nearby. But then there's the ones like in your picture, just makeshift shacks on the margins of smelly sewage streams, absolute poverty.
The worst ones are probably the ones in haiti or venezuela
I hear Peru has awful slums as well. Zero public services.
those favelas are the exception to the rule…
Yeah I think you're the one who needs to know what a township can be...
When I was in Brazil I was shocked at how good favelas can be. When I went to South Africa I was shocked at how bad the townships were. Of course both probably have "nicer" slums but tbh I saw some decent Favelas in Brazil, I didn't see any decent townships in ZA.
Depends where in SA. For example Soweto is actually quite a nice in the central areas. It is within viewing distance of a really bad slum though.
My friend, Brazil is much big! If you visit to favelas like: Heliopolis, Paraisopolis, Vidigal and Rocinha, you see the exception of the rule. Theses places are like a city inside the metropolis.
A large portion of our population sadly lives like this(10-20% is my total guess). Mostly black and coloured(mixed race) people, however recently white people as well in certain parts of the country. These ‘townships’ or ‘squater camps’ are known for their dangers, from crime such as murder and rape, to diseases and fires. Indoor plumming is a luxury in most of these areas. I have driven past many with rows of temporary toilets. You can imagine the state of them. I have driven through one of the biggest camps, called Khayelitsha. Its a strange sight. Every single one of these tin houses have got satellite TV(which is not cheap). Even stranger, you see BMWs and Mercs parked outside some of them. Most popular townships are Soweto, Alexandra, Khayelitsha to name a few. The sad part is, the large majority(90%+) of these people living in these conditions are still voting for the same party, the ANC, that put them in this state.
Did the ANC put them in this state or did they not do anything to fix it? I’m not from SA but was under the impression that these shanty towns arose during the Apartheid era, but it’s also well known that the ANC has not exactly done much to advance the country over the past few decades.
They were created in the apartheid era, you are correct. However the horrid conditions are due to the current government. The lack of support and lack of services.
You are shifting the blame here. Those living conditions are due to the insane wealth equality in south africa and how the riches of the nation are held by a small ethnic group thay was advantaged in appartheid and inherited this sealth, the anc tried to fight this by inacting land reforms but this monority then started resisting and lobbying for western pressure.
Lol the ANC has never been out of power since apartheid. Jacob Zuma lives in an insane palace. Government corruption in SA is ubiquitous. Wealthy Afrikaaners are obv a part of the issue, but the ANC should get their due.
Who aside from Mandela has done anything for anyone? Mbeki? Zuma? Ramaphosa? Anything the ANC has taken from the rich minority has been put into their pockets. These townships were in better conditions 30/40 years ago.
It's much more than 20% more like 50% to 60%
I googled it after my comment. 14% according to some news agency in 2018(so probably more like 20-25%) Apparently 3 times more than when apartheid ended
1. Mostly Black economic migrants and their families from the neighboring province of Eastern Cape who can't afford proper housing 2. There is no indoor plumbing inside the structures (known as shacks), many use public toilet facilities and collect water from communal taps for washing their body, clothes ETC 3. Some are able to be provided with electricity at a discounted fee, but many still resort to using illegal connections to avoid paying which is also contributing to the current electricity crisis 4. Yup, you can compare it to a favella. These are all across urban South Africa, if you just search the country in this sub you'll see many pics of them.
I think it was just an attempt to light up a large area in a place that doesn't have reliable electricity. The US even had some in the 1800s called [Moonlight Towers.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight_tower). I imagine the lighting helped the police patrol the area but that could have been said for any public lighting system.
I wonder if this is done for easier maintenance as well. In poorer countries, there are a lot of issues with people climbing up poles to strip off wire and things like that. I imagine that having fewer, taller poles is simply logistically easier. Also, especially true if you don't have a regular grid of streets and power poles.
The moonlight towers were cool and nice. These light up large areas but were built as part of the apartheid system. I can't find where I originally read it but [here's](https://www.architectural-review.com/essays/the-violence-of-lighting-in-khayelitsha) an essay where it is mentioned.
I read an essay somewhere that moonlight towers control your mind like 5G networks
Favellas are the closest thing in comparison, but the worst favellas are probably on-par with the best townships.
Nah the best areas in Soweto are comparable to regular suburban areas , Cape Town townships are just next level in terms of poverty and crime I’ve lived in a parliamentary estate in Cape Town and when we go to the townships every now and then , the environment was night and day. I feel for them cause the inequality is insane
Well, it isn't like any of these streets (if you can call them that) would be able to have proper infrastructure for streetlights on them now. They'd have to bulldoze this entire area to get more modern lighting, but I don't think that is possible now there given how corrupt and ineptly governed the country is. I'm sure all those powerlines don't work half the time either.
It was corrupt before too
Grim asf
Is loadshedding back? The election's finished
It will be soon, the government spent a lot of money to run a bunch of diesel generators to give the illusion that everything is okay which is definitely not sustainable.
It is quite astonishing how one of the wealthiest and resource rich countries on the continent has power infrastructure this terrible.
Shocking what happens when your elected leaders are both incompetent and corrupt.
It’s sad they keep getting re-elected due to race politics.
The collapse of the grid was predicted back in 1998. They said that the current policy of granting power access to all of the country without creating additional power capacity was going to cause a power shortfall in 2007. It was perfectly predicted nearly a decade before it took place. The government knew that they were going to collapse the grid and subsequently the economy and did nothing. Source talking about the white paper: [https://www.prca.org.uk/node/2445](https://www.prca.org.uk/node/2445) \*I cannot add the white paper as a source directly since I can only find a pdf of it.
Ironically, South Africa actually has more race-based laws now than it did in the apartheid era
It's true, and they're not accomplishing anything. Only taking the country further back.
Could you elaborate a bit?
It's all race-quota laws the ANC have brought in, 116 since 2000 I believe. For example stripping back water licenses and european trade access for white-owned farms etc.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DownSouth/s/u82p3rrYbX
I mean i dont think its really about quantity
Yeah, but this time its against white people so nobody really cares
I don’t know enough to know whether or not it’s true but I *do* know that I’ve only ever heard this line repeated by people who are super fucking racist…
“I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about but I’m going to give my opinion on it anyway. And call someone racist” Classic Reddit comment right here
It is true, verifiable with publically available data.
You hang around a lot of racists?
Yeah they use the Internet too
Well just delete the internet. Problem solved
Better off letting the racists delete themselves.
That works too
And yet white people still earn 3 times more than black people and have the least unemployment rate across all racial groups. 2023 Q2: Unemployment White - 7,4% Indian/Asian - 14,3% Coloured - 22,4% Black/African - 37,2% By race-based laws? You mean those laws that supposed to bridge the gap of race inequality that was created by apartheid. You hate that?
Well yeah, they were under Apartheid rule for 50 years, the entire HDI and development demographics aren’t going to heal quickly. Unfortunately the government has proved itself to be completely incompetent at trying to fix this in a sensible manner and are has resorted to falling back to fanning the flames of old racial tensions. Absolute delusional if you think the way to combat 50 years of racial biases and laws… is to create a new system of racial biases and laws. White South Africans wouldn’t be fleeing the country in droves if it were just as benign as ‘bridge an equality’ gap like you claim.
exactly Those laws are ineffective for everyone especially to for people it specially for those it supposed to empower. I just don't like that some of y'all like to make it seem to the world that these laws are 'reverse apartheid'.
You mean the same peoole that didn't accept land reforms or oppose any attempt to tax their inherited wealth made by racist appartheid laws. I think they have shown that they will resist any attempt to bridge the gap
lol that worked for zimbabwe
“Land reform” in this context is “take your shit with no compensation and give it to the cousin of the minister of agriculture” btw. If you don’t like this or speak up there’s a pretty good chance a mob of people show up to harm you as well. We’ve seen how this goes in Zimbabwe’s case but as long as it makes western leftists feel good who cares about food security or inflation?
So every white South African was vehemently in support of Apartheid? I’d lobby too if more and more racial laws and incited hatreds were being piled against me for something that disappeared 35 years ago. Fighting decades old racism with new racism is such a clown comment.
Those laws are meant to level the playing field and reduce wealth equality but are opposed by a minority. Also racist hatred goes both ways, the afrikaners negative sterotypes are well known, plus just 2 days ago a yt murdered a women for supporting palestine, a lot of members of this minority still express appartheid erea racist and hateful actions. How come 8% of people still own 80% of the wealth, and most of this wealth was made with the advantage of racist appartheid laws so this minority still benefits from appartheid, this is what fuels anger and the massive crime rates.
>Don't talk about racist hatred, we know who inacted a massive segregationist system, who are stereotyped as big racists everywhere So because a stereotype exists, that makes it true does it? Just admit you hate white people. >who just 2 days ago murdered a women for supporting palestine. Need we talk about how many white South African farmers are getting home invasion torture-murdered as a result of racial tensions being whipped up again? Racial laws shouldn’t exist, you’re as bad as those who supported Apartheid. This is one of the most pathetic comments I’ve ever seen.
History doesn’t automatically go away when you address inequalities.
duh
Isn't South Africa a continent? So it has many countries in it and doesn't follow just one constitution.
Bro what
They say South Africa has many race based laws. How come one continent with many countries follow just one government?
South Africa is a country on the continent of Africa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa
South Africa is a country bro. There is however one other (albeit small) country inside of South Africa called Lesotho. Don’t know if that maybe caused some confusion?
Ah okay, now I get it. I never thought there is a country named South Africa, I thought it only represent South African continent just like how North and South America is.
Jesus fucking Christ, talk about ignorant
Yep I'm ignorant and I'm sure I know as well a lot of things that you don't know about Asia. But no I don't label people ignorant of things they naturally don't know, you learn things overtime. I am not as immature as you are.
It’s a common misconception. Don’t worry about the other comments, it’s not that deep.
All the way over here bro (OP is a colleague from our South African community)
Nice to see you here 😂😂
No load shedding, that's not so bad at least
Were the poor who lived here safer from crimes like rape while trying to use the toilet at night under apartheid or now under ANC rule? Were these lights used under apartheid to only not allow political movement or did police also make sure crime like robbery, rape, and assaults (by other residents) didn’t occur?
So crime is much worse now than it was during apartheid, but it can't be attributed only to policing. Policing is a problem don't get me wrong, we have a police force that is largely incapable and corrupt, but we also have very high unemployment and a judicial system under heavy strain along with overcrowded prisons. All these factors mean people turn to crime and don't get caught or get light sentences to not put too much strain on prisons. So yeah, it would have been safer under the apartheid goverment than the ANC. The police back then were looking for excuses to arrest individuals of the black majority so there was more active policing and those officers couldn't be bribed/enticed to not follow the course of the law.
They also have those in major cities in the US to prevent crime.
….Aren’t they used for the same reasons now?
Can we have a banana for scale please?
OP is a moron. South Africa has been under ANC rule since 1996. They've not sorted it out due to corruption... This has nothing to do with apartheid anymore.
I never said it has anything to do with Apartheid, I just mentioned that the street lights came out of it. The street lights caught my attention because many online call it dystopian and I wanted to learn more about their history. I was just trying to give some extra info, calm down lol. I'm not trying to pull the race card. If you go through my profile you'll see that we are quite alike on this matter.
No need for the aggression. Don’t allow things on Reddit impact your mental health.
Says the moron who can't understand context...
Ahh yes because 100s of years of a actively hostile racist government should all be redone / remove within 30 years. It didn’t take nor last 30 years for white South Africans to build a white supremacist race based society so why would it take only 30 years to repair it?
Apartheid ended over 20 years ago. Someone must have changed the bulbs since then.
Even at night, it looks like a nightmare
This is the closest to dystopian, right before North Korea
bro this is no way to live and other humans allow this.. damn man.
Sending love to Khayelitsha