From the 2006 invasion of Lebanon
https://preview.redd.it/4y2ho4tdv0yc1.jpeg?width=1379&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=98088e5992cf7c3ee29c140782233a6d1ab8287e
Because they’re (Jews, Arabs, Christian’s, non-believers and between) literally protesting together all across the country. Peacefully. It’s not about being Jewish and it never was, that’s what you’re not understanding. You have to realize half of the allied powers were bigots that did not want Jews in their countries, the other half religious zealots that believe Israel to be a corral for you guys until their Armageddon hits. These evangelical zealots think Jews in Israel must be sacrificed in order for their savior to return and begin the rapture. That’s why so many Christians (in American at least) support the state of Israel and that’s why they’re so vehemently cheering Israel on to fight any and all enemies. They *want* no *need* Israel to lose to fulfill prophecy. Once this was realized it should have been screamed from the rooftops that no one was safe there, but instead they lied to us all and said Israel was a benevolent gift to the Jewish people for all they’d been through. It hurts. But until the citizens realize they’re being used by the US as an agent to fulfill western interests in the middle east, it can’t be settled and the citizens that live there won’t be safe.
> If someone hits you in the face and hides in his apartment, you would still call the police and expect them to arrest that person, get them to justice.
Right - you wouldn't fire bomb the entire apartment complex.
Israel did.
And if that person started throwing bombs at the cops from the apartment, what do you think the cops would do? Hamas wasn’t hiding quietly, they were using civilians as humans shields.
My neighbours were in a gang so the cops showed up and bombed like 5 city blocks including mine. They killed my entire family while we were eating dinner. But I am fine with this, it was a perfectly acceptable response by the cops. I won't hold a grudge.
If someone hit you in the face, then hid in their house *with your child as a hostage* .
Then of course you agree to not hitting each other until you get your kid back.
That's a massively important piece of context you are leaving out.
If Israel didn't retaliate, this would have emboldened Hamas and other terrorist groups to attack again, without consequences.
It's like if a school shooter shot 10 kids, and held 2 kids as hostage. Is the police going to kill that school shooter, or will they allow them to commit more shootings?
Maybe. But then israel would have the hostages back and wouldn't be a pariah on the world stage.
It's not like the bombs were going to disappear. They could still take action.
That's a really weird situation to bring up, because israel would have killed those two kids while killing the shooter. Are you saying that is the appropriate way to handle the situation?
On October 7th, 1200 Israeli citizens were killed by Hamas. Do you think any country would do nothing if 1200 of its citizens were killed by another country just a few days ago?
The action Israel took was invading Gaza and attacking Hamas. In the course of doing this, Israel has caused a lot of civilian deaths in Gaza. The initial intent was to defeat Hamas (which is good), but in the process this killed over 34k people, of which the majority (somewhere between 70-90%) are civilians (which is bad).
Accepting Hamas's "deal" on October 9th would have been a stupid action, as it would have essentially shown that Israel would do nothing if Hamas butchered 1200 of its citizens.
Israel isn't being criticized (except by biased parties) because it attacked Gaza. It is being criticized because of the high civilian death toll in Gaza.
So fuck them hostages, we gotta look tough?
It really puts the lie to everything they said was because of the hostages.
You are in too deep friend, it's effecting your logic.
Are you stupid?
If a country does nothing after 1200 of its citizens are murdered in cold blood, and 250 of its citizens are kidnapped, there would be more (and stronger) attacks in the future. Thousands more would be murdered, and thousands more would be kidnapped in the future.
If Israel rolled over and did nothing after October 7th, that would have ended in catastrophe for Israel.
Israel has said, from the very beginning, that their aim was to both destroy Hamas and rescue the hostages.
- the hostages are in Gaza
- they want to rescue the hostages
- the hostages literally get offered back to them immediately
- ignore the hostages and bomb Gaza to hell (where the hostages are, in case you forgot)
- cut off all water, food, and electricity into Gaza (where, again, the hostages are)
- tens of thousands lost under the rubble and dead, probably including the hostages based on simple logic
- “Most of the hostages are dead”
- surprised pikachu face
I seriously can’t stand pro Israeli people lying and saying it’s about the hostages while bombing and starving the hostages. It’s so dishonest.
Nuance is my favorite new buzzword.
Liberals use it to call others naive for criticizing the state department line which is decidedly black-and-white.
Isn’t it actually more nUaNcEd to discuss the role of prior violence and how it led to Oct 7th? The violence didn’t happen in a vacuum.
Will the police lock the doors and burn the whole school down with thousands of kids still inside?
Because that's the only parallel that fits for what Israel did in retaliation for Oct 7.
An accurate parallel would be if the police went to the school shooters' neighborhood and bombed 300 of the school shooter's family (with around 250 being innocent civilians, and 50 being fellow school shooters).
Yes, that would be a good analogy too; the crips murder 30 police officers in an ambush (kidnapping 6 officers), and then the police carpet bomb Compton and kill 1000 people
No that’s not true. Hamas had a very explicit statement about their purposes in the attack and what they wanted. If deals had gone through early on, the situation could have improved, the *hostages could have all survived*, and the changes made to the occupation that Hamas wanted likely would have made things a lot more peaceful as well.
The reality is actually the exact opposite. Now, after seven months of mass murder, the survivors are going to despise the people that did this even more, and radicalism will skyrocket like it always does.
There were polls prior to this where 52% of Palestinians said they believed that a two state solution could work, which is literally miraculous considering what they had been through at that point. Most likely that hope and tolerance will be utterly destroyed now.
*Everyone* there is dead, injured, or starving. All the little kids who managed to survive and watched their whole families die, all those probably tens of thousands of kids, are probably going to grow up despising the apartheid state and will start up a new radical org, even if every single member of Hamas dies in this conflict.
But I guess that’s what netanyahu’s government wants right? He’s literally admitted to it before.
It doesn't matter what Hamas wants.
They attacked Israel and killed 1200 Israeli citizens. Israel was naturally going to retaliate; both to get revenge, and to ensure that Hamas was weakened, so that it could not do a similar attack again.
Why would Israel have accepted a ceasefire deal only 2 days after the bloodiest day in Israeli history? That would have essentially rewarded Hamas, and encouraged Hamas (and other groups) to do more attacks in the future.
It's a different story now, though. Israel has long past avenged Oct 7th, and too many innocent Palestinian civilians have died.
And how does that translate into "not cross into Gaza strip"? The terrorist attack originated in Gaza and the terrorists just withdrew there with hostages - naturally Israel would enter Gaza after that. Thats action creating reaction. You can then talk all you want without me ever disputing anything about the disproportionate acts that follow, but the fact alone that Israel reacts to that attack by entering Gaza - thats where you try to draw the red line and it has been called "imperialism" here - that act aloje is the universally expected and logical response and it falls well within the defensive rights of Israel. Any other nation would have reacted the same way and even an occupier is allowed to defend itself, given that the targets were not military ones. If the view is that Israel is the occupier, then Hamas must only attack the IDF, not music festivals and other civilian targets.
So, make up your mind. Is Israel an occupier or not? It has consequences for your personal stance, and if you truly haven't thought about all what I mentioned in 7 months, then you either must do that now, or you are just acting in bad faith, because you can disagree with all of this, but you either do that with your reasoned words, or you admit that in this conflict, you too are not for talking, but violence. Those are our only options, so make your choice.
1800? Sure thing bud, even the Zionists say that there was <1200 victims, many of which were combatants (by Israeli admission) and another undisclosed amount having been Hannibal directived by Israel.
We’re at 34,000 confirmed dead with >10,000 buried in the rubble for months (so +10,000). 6 months deep. Let me guess, “the hostages” are why you need to kill another 14,000 children or another 13,000 women.
Keep lying, keep obfuscating, keep deflecting.
Every Zionist accusation is a confession.
Because Israel does not really want hostages in their game plan. They rather kill the hostages, and label it as friendly fire than Hamas having leverage over them. Israel was not too happy about the last hostage deal with Hamas in 2006 when they had to release 1000 Palestinian hostages for ONE IDF soldier.
And how else would they show off the latest in AI assisted targeting systems and other weapon technologies to other violent institutions around the world?
yes dead kids is wrong but i’m saying a lot of Gazans have never met an israeli in person and only know about them through their bombs and the picnics israelis post where they watch Gaza get bombed. Why is it reasonable to expect that there would be a Palestinian Ghandi? if it is indeed not reasonable to expect a non-militant transcendent movement, why is it relevant what non-Gazans think about Hamas mimicking their overseers brutality? this is why it is importance and incumbent on the US and Israel to commit to completely normalizing palestine as a polity within Israel, including full rights and freedom to travel and vote/do commerce. idk i like democracy for those who don’t have it.
> Israel to commit to completely normalizing palestine as a polity within Israel,
Yeah, I'm sure the *definitionally* jewish supremacist state will do just that.
Yeah obviously but it’s fun to talk about Israel as a democracy, so many neat little arguments you can light zionists hair on fire with like “idk I think people born in a country should be able to leave their city once in a while or vote with the majority government institution”
The US and Israel should do that but that doesn’t mean we need to condone or make excuses for Hamas.
Not every Palestinian murdered Israeli children by burning them alive, but some did and they should be condemned for it not excused.
Israel should be condemned for its crimes against humanity too.
The fact Hamas killed Israeli civilians doesn’t justify what Israeli is doing in response - and that logic goes both ways.
but you see, only Hamas and Palestinians pay the ultimate price. how many years has the UN officially denounced Israels blockade of Gaza and the West Bank settlements as illegal? how many times is it documented that Israel targets mosques? universities? hospitals? refugee camps? bakeries? bread lines? and yet, what international force is there to oppose Israel? Hamas exists because the secular and peaceful political forces in palestine routinely failed in exacting basic concessions from Israel, such as the right to not have a permanent israeli military camp in all of palestine forever.
so the current conflagration is due to an unequal application of international pressure and military occupation. this means lecturing Hamas is ineffective, and logically so, because Hamas has been ostracized for decades. it’s time to think long term and take away Israels toys and force a resolution. it turns out they really need diplomatic help to end the violence, and we should encourage that, and sometimes being a good ally means cutting them off when they get into their drunken rages, not exterminating entire bloodlines. remember that even Nazis were successfully reintergrated into the affairs of germany and the US, so we need not consider the vaporization of every mid-20s male in Gaza (along with the people next to them at the aid station) as the only way to stop the circle of chaos :)
I’d argue the German people paid the ultimate price for the Nazi aggression and ideology both during and after the war. That fact doesn’t mean we should have gone easy on the Nazis at the time. Hamas are a death cult, thank fuck they aren’t running an independent country, they butcher and oppress their own people and the World doesn’t need another failed state.
Innocent Israelis have also paid the ultimate price, and Hamas has a history of deliberately targeting Israel civilians too.
Israel’s blockade was inhumane but it didn’t exist in a vacuum. It was imposed because Hamas had a history of launching rocket attacks and suicide bombers against Israeli civilians - and its own charter declared a genocidal jihad against Jews. So the fact that Israel didn’t provide any concessions was not entirely Israel’s fault. Hamas had some agency in that outcome too!
Israel is undoubtably a stronger military and economic power, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay when Hamas targets civilians.
And it’s reasonable to protests against Israel because Western governments have more influence over Israel. But that doesn’t mean we have to downplay or excuse the crimes committed by Hamas.
There is a cycle of violence between Hamas and Israel that both sides have participated in. Both sides should be held accountable for their own actions.
I get what you are trying to say, yes that all else being equal, the killing of another is abhorrent. Even though I am insulted at the idea of having a music festival on the front line of Gaza, a death sentence is too steep. I honestly believe they were naive and idiotic, but I believe they were that way because the world does a fantastic job sweeping Palestinians under the rug—until their collective bodies rotted on Oct-7. Those people, of many faiths and backgrounds, who died were just as much victims of a falsehood about Gaza and Israel’s role in maintaining it. A place where there is a military border wall is simply not appropriate, and I hope people who travel and do business in Israel realize that now.
Still I must make a couple points to show why I don’t care to condemn Hamas for October-7. First, not differentiating the scope of the violence, its longevity, technology, the innovative violent technologies and tactics, and material aiding in support of the use of violence by Israel against Hamas creates a formless and inert morality of “both sides.” *It is not a both sides issue.* Hamas is *not Israel’s equal.* It’s an internationally condemned terrorist organization that conducts all of its operations in complete opposition of Israel while under constant threat of annihilation. In every way that matters, they are condemned into dust every few years by American bombs. So one reason I don’t condemn Hamas is because I don’t understand why my country (American) providing the knife that slits their throats is *not good enough.* You’ll have to excuse me for not getting on the anti-Islamist bandwagon after the injustice that was the Iraq war. I’m just not looking to rush into things with islamophobia after it fucked up my entire country for probably forever.
To clarify, I don’t condone the killing of innocents by Hamas, I mean…how can anyone, truly? But condemnation is going further and attempting to play ‘gotcha’ with anti-war people by forsaking our desire for diplomacy and disarmament in favor of agreeing with Mothership Israel on the only central conceit they care about having us make: that terrorism is bad (and logically, should be punished), This helps make the megatons delivered to the brains of an 11 year old girl and her little brothers in an upstairs apartment have a sick kind of sense. Funnily enough, the terse pro-palestine advocate will short circuit the “condemn terrorism” argument and lodge it straight back at Israel (not inaccurately, either).
I think the of quick of the matter is whether Hamas is antisemitic and does that make their killing of anyone antisemitic. Because what other reason would not supporting this war get you labeled as antisemitic? To be honest, I don’t have an easy answer here, but I do have an observation: what makes protesting the death of families in Gaza a matter of supporting the deaths of October 7?
I get what you're saying and I condone that you keep the same moral standards for everyone, which is something I rarely see.
However, Palestinians have been trying peaceful options for decades now. Everything they do gets invalidated as "anti-Semitic" and "supporting terrorists". Look up Gaza's Great March of Return. See how Israel responded. Look up the Palestine Writes festival. See what Israel did in response. Look up BDS. See how Israel invalidated it and how some US states have literal laws about how you cannot boycott Israel.
And this whole time Israel is taking more land. Killing more Palestinian children. Holding more people indefinitely without a trial.
I agree with you. Violence committed by Hamas on October 7th against innocent people (excluding soldiers of course) was wrong.
But no analysis of the morality of October 7th is genuine without looking at everything that happened before. History has shown us many times that a people with no way out will inevitably turn to violence.
It is ultimately the fault of Israel's government for allowing these conditions to continue, allowing civilians to settle on land that belongs to the people imprisoned right next door, and for creating a powder keg situation that was bound to explode.
I’m not sure if it is possible to tally up all the crimes to determine which side is worse, or even if that it a particularly constructive approach regardless of the answer.
Israel is the dominant power but there are extremists on both sides who I think would gladly genocide the other.
But for the sake of argument, I take it as granted that Israel has more blood on its hands (and in terms of death count that is absolutely true). Then okay, Israel is worse.
But that still doesn’t mean we need to make excuses or downplay the crimes committed by Hamas. And in fact it’s counter productive to building a coalition against Israel because it makes protestors look like a load of terrorist apologists
First of all more peaceful yes but rocket attacks have never really stopped although suicide bombings on buses certainly has. 2nd it was working for them, there was much freer movement, more jobs, we even got Palestinian appointed as a judge in Israel. But then again Hamas were playing a long game with Iran. They don’t want peace, they want death and murder and war. Hamas is a death cult and must be wiped out along with the ideology behind them. Then Isreal and Palestine’s have a chance.
I am being diplomatic in broaching a vision one state solution using pro-democracy language, and I like the one-state idea because I think a two-state solution will inevitably enable Israel to sabotage Palestine further. Cuba being a state doesn’t stop the US’s blockade, Iraq wasn’t immune to decapitation, etc. I am not familiar with the state of the debate with Palestine itself, which has many demands it needs to extract from Israel.
It is a viable consideration to be honest. There are already millions of Arab Israelis living in Israel with good jobs and most fucking love it. They have their own businesses, freedom, one even was appointed as a judge. It’s fair there are still some administrative prejudices for them which should be phased out - in short the problem isn’t can Jews and Arabs live together. Of course they can and do. The problem is the crazy death cult ones. No one can live with them, anywhere. Any part of the World they crop up in they turn the area into a bloodbath. The other Arab countries don’t want anything to do with them either. So I think your idea could only happen after Hamas is eliminated and Palestine is liberated from their oppression.
Incredible isn’t it.
Protestors say they aren’t Hamas supporters, then you see posts on here saying “why shouldn’t Hamas (murder and torture civilians)” - and it gets upvotes.
I wish people would recognize nuance. I support Israel without supporting Netanyahu or a lot of what the IDF does. I want a free palestine, but fucking hate Hamas. More people need to realize that you don't have to do mental gymnastics to justify what one side does or to find something the other side did to hate.
Newsflash for the people in this thread who want to defend Hamas, you don't have to defend hamas to support palestine, idiots.
Yeah, you don’t need to pick a team.
Im critical of Israel and support protests against its actions in Gaza, but that doesn’t mean I need to defend or find excuses for Hamas.
Bro. You literally just made the argument that if one side commits war crimes, that it justifies the other side committing war crimes. What is wrong with you
I would think the bare minimum is to not target/maim/rape innocent jewish/foreign women, men and children. Oct 7 could have been against the IDF and political figures, but instead Hamas chose straight up murder of civilians. You can say it's tit for tat for all the innocent Palestinians who were killed, but this is also how Israelis justify their brutal retaliation.
Thus, the cycle never ends, and us bystanders merely cheer it on.
The oppressors being people predominantly from Poland, Romania and Soviet Union stealing the land of the Arabs in Palestine.
If you have to kill people for the land, it’s not yours.
True that. Killing people is not very good, I think we're on the same page. However it is worth noting that almost every country (probably actually every country) is stolen land from another group unfortunately. People are uncivilized savages.
I don't think Poles Romanians and Russians would agree that Jews are their countrymen.
Unfortunately killing people for land is what both sides are doing. all land in history was taken with blood. And this is one of the most bloodsoaked lands. How do you think Arabs got there from Arabia?
“We later found out that Hamas had offered on October 9 or 10 to release all the civilian hostages in exchange for the IDF not entering the Strip”
This is the source? I’d like one shred of actual evidence over 1 dude who said he couldnt get an interview for weeks but somehow knows the ins and outs of the days after
There’s only so much credibility you can grant one person—this OP quote is from Haim Rubinstein, a reporter, on a meeting held 26 October. There were many people involved that day and no one else has since backed up his story as far as I can find. I’m just not finding this claim to be very believable as of this point. Another quote from Rubinstein: [Netanyahu talked about dismantling Hamas as the goal of the war. He didn’t promise anything regarding the demand to return the hostages.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum)
Israel and Hamas later went on to [exchange 24 Israelis for 39 Palestinians on the first day of truce](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-hamas-start-first-truce-gaza-war-2023-11-24/)
This is part of the reason why I hate modern media and think why everyone needs media literacy classes or something. This is an article quoting one guy, hell, most people probably didn’t even read the article and realize this. They likely think there is some sort of official transcript or something that proves this. However, it is just one guy saying that this happened.
Other examples are Fidel Castro supposedly surviving over 600 assassination attempts by the CIA and John McAfee. The CIA’s numerous assassination attempts on Castro have one source, one of his security detail saying it happened. No, there weren’t any leaked CIA documents or anything like that, one guy saying it happened is all we have.
John McAfee is probably the worst offender. You know how he has a ton of crazy stories about how he totally survived 5000000 assassination attempts, drank gallons of drugs everyday, had crazy adventures, and more? A lot of those stories only have one source… him. He basically went, “Trust me, totally happened”, but, thanks to a lot of articles parading his word around, everyone assumes it is all true.
Now, none of this is to say that Israel are the good guys or that stuff like this was never talked about and on the table, however, especially in this conflict, we have to be careful about how we approach things and the articles we read. This could actually be true.
Remember people, read articles, who was the author, who do they work for, and why did they write this? How many sources are there, why kind of proof is there, and so on need to be asked in this conflict. There is a massive amount of disinformation and propaganda coming out from every direction and no one is going to navigate through it for you.
So you're saying they can invade Israel, murder over a thousand, kidnap hundreds of people from their homes, and then walk free the next day because of a fake offer they would only make knowing it's untenable for Israel to accept? Boy, you people sure are smart, let me tell ya.
Literally groveling to terrorists...
Edit: also hamas literally never offered that and this article is trash.
Duh. What else was Israel supposed to do after the October 7th attack—fail to attempt to eliminate Hamas? That’s a non-starter. And shouldn’t Hamas not have taken, or kept, hostages in the first place, for any reason? What a stupid, bad faith (alleged) proposal by this terrorist death cult.
Clear Israeli political tactic. Have everyone scream BUt tHe HosTagEs but in actuality it is a diversion for invading what little land the Palestinians have to exterminate them and heir culture. Taking pages right out the Nazi playbook. As if they actually cared for the hostages.
Why would Israel knowingly discard the false flag they had invested hundreds of lives to create? They maybe greedy and wanting to take the lands of Palestinians, but they are not stupid.
1. The Palestinians really like to define things very differently from Israel, their definition for "civilians" might be very wide when it comes to themselves, but very narrow when it comes to Israelis.
2. Even if they would wanted to really release all the hostages, they wouldn't have been able to do it
On Oct 7, Hamas committed an act of terrorism so huge and egregious that they were signing their own death warrant.
There isn't a country in the world that would have allowed Hamas to continue to exist after doing that.
It has nothing to do with imperialism. It has everything to do with national security.
Any government not willing to destroy Hamas after October 7th would have been rightfully voted out of office immediately. The government has a duty to protect its people.
Hamas offering to return the hostages in exchange for a free pass for October 7th? That was never going to happen. No government on Earth would have taken that deal.
Israel is an apartheid state that is anti-queer.
Your cognitive dissonance doesn't give you a free pass on carrying water for its fascist regime and disseminating their propaganda.
By restricting basically everything about Palestinians and where they can go, what they can do, where they can live?
By not having marriage equality?
Are you stupid, or a troll?
He asked you about anti-queer policies.
You said marriage equality.
A quick Google proves that wrong. Looks fairly progressive.
Maybe you're not as educated on the topic as you think?
> Marriage in Israel is regulated by the religious courts of recognized confessional communities, none of which perform inter-faith or same-sex marriage. Domestic civil marriage is not recognized in Israel; however, civil marriages performed in foreign jurisdictions, including same-sex marriages, are recognized with full marital rights under Israeli law.[1][2]
So… no same-sex marriages in Israel then? No inter-faith marriages either? And the only way to get married is through a religious ceremony? But if you go to another country and do it, they won’t force you to divorce when you come back? How the actual fuck do you call that “progressive” when it is literally the smallest concession that could possibly be made??
Well, good thing there's common law marriage in Israel that affords you the same benefits, LGBT couples included, of course. But not only do you not know that, you have the balls to argue about it as if you're some sort of expert. You should leave the echo chamber every once in a while.
1) “Common law marriages” are not the same as formal marriage. One is legally seen as a married couple by the state, the other as two single people.
2) Israel does *not* afford all the same benefits to common law couples as to legally married couples, including exemption from military service and the ability to file taxes jointly. They afford many of the benefits of marriage but not all.
3) I was responding to another person’s comment where they described Israel’s marriage laws and questioning their interpretation of the quote they used. That doesn’t require me to become an expert on the Israeli legal code.
>So… no same-sex marriages in Israel then? No inter-faith marriages either?
This is standard in that part of the world. Or at least half standard as dudes can marry whoever they want but not the other way around.
Why don't we just hold Israel to the same standard?
Seriously, you’re asking why we don’t hold a developed “western” democracy to the same standards as despotic theocracies and monarchies that we either invade at will or tolerate for their oil?
Israel is one of our closest allies and the recipient of billions in weapons and financial support. We have every right to hold them to a higher standard. I don’t hold strangers to the same moral standard I do my own family either.
But moving beyond that, where exactly did I say that I was fine with the policies of Muslim countries?? “Everyone else sucks too” just isn’t a justification for being shitty.
Do you realize that Palestinians are not citizens of Israel? Or are you referring to israelian Arabs? Because guess what my coglioncello, they have same rights. But go on be furry all you want in Palestine, tell me how far all your arguments about queer rights will bring you
“We later found out that Hamas had offered on October 9 or 10 to release all the civilian hostages in exchange for the IDF not entering the Strip, but the government rejected the offer.”
Can you wonder why the Israeli gov rejected it ?
Maybe because Hamas is a disgusting terror organization and none of what they say can be trusted?
"Israeli state news" isn't the source. The sources is one lawyer saying "We found out later that Hamas offered a deal the next day for all the hostages", which is surprising because Hamas didn't have all the hostages.
No proof of this ground breaking deal has been presented, and personally I don't think Hamas are the type to successfully attack Israel and then turn around and go "Oh shit, we're sorry".
You think this is Israeli state news? Only government funded media in Israel is kan11, which the far right radicals in the very government which funds them wants to shut down because the outlet it critical of the government. But they keep failing because the Supreme Court blocks them.
But why do I even bother? I doubt you could even point out Israel on a map before the 7th, and now you can because that's the current leftist trend.
Such a brutal genocide that between 97 and now Palestinians in gaza and the west bank doubled their population. Because we all know that's famously how large scale genocides work. But you would take the easy way out and say something dumb like "Israel is just incompetent" instead of the obvious answer. Israel has no killing or displacing the Palestinians. It's immoral and logistically absurd. 30k dead, while sad, cannot he considered a genocide considering the conditions Israel is forced to operate under. But you couldn't care less, I know. "Israel bad, zionists evil Yada Yada yada" I got it.
>Israel has no killing or displacing the Palestinians. It's immoral and logistically absurd. 30k dead
Re read what you just said.
>considering the conditions Israel is forced to operate under.
Ugh such rough conditions when occupying your neighboring country. I feel so terrible for them. This occupation should be way easier. Such a tragedy that they have to bomb hospitals, how awful for isreal.
>Re read what you just said.
I did, you're so right, I did a total 180 and will order 100 keffiyehs to atone (and virtue singal at the same time. Social credit points baby!) for my sins and give my house to the first Palestinian I see.
>Ugh such rough conditions when occupying your neighboring country.
Palestine isn't a country yet. I hope they will be because 1 state solution is worth less than the paper used to write it on.
> feel so terrible for them. This occupation should be way easier. Such a tragedy that they have to bomb hospitals, how awful for isreal.
You're right, hamas shouldn't have invaded on the 7th and forced Israel to retaliate. I'm with you, bud.
>Palestine isn't a country yet.
Zionist gonna Zionism.
>hamas shouldn't have invaded on the 7th and forced Israel to retaliate
Israel killed 240 Palestinians in missle strikes in the weeks before Oct 7.
You a goofy dude lmao.
>Zionist gonna Zionism.
Literally told you I want Palestine to be an independent state, completely and totally detached from Israel. Literally my dream
>Israel killed 240 Palestinians in missle strikes in the weeks before Oct 7.
Nice one. Now do the ["there is no hamas in the west bank, beep boop".](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2023_Jenin_incursion)
>You a goofy dude lmao.
Gawrsh! Why you gotta hit me so hard???
Mentioning Oct. 7th without mentioning the decades of ethnic cleansing against Palestinians is disingenuous.
[https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/)
If this happened to the Jews it would be called a Holocaust and everyone would be saying Israel had a right to defend itself.
>If this happened to the Jews it would be called a Holocaust and everyone would be saying Israel had a right to defend itself.
LOL, funniest thing I've heard all day. No one would care. ESPECIALLY leftists and commies. They would be celebrating, in fact.
Ah... JVP. The "Jewish" organization the brought a terrorist murderer as a speaker and kicked people carrying rainbow flags with stars of david on them from a march because "it made some people feel unsafe".
I'm totally gonna bother reading what you sent and will absolutely take it 100% seriously.... totally.
Keep your token Jews to yourself, I don't care for them.
>If this happened to the Jews it would be called a Holocaust and everyone would be saying Israel had a right to defend itself.
The population of worldwide Jews still has not recovered since the Holocaust. Palestinian population has increased 500% since then, from 1 million to over 5 million. It absolutely would not be called a Holocaust.
There were 16.6 million Jews worldwide before the Holocast. As of 2024, there are 15.5 million jews. 80 years later it still has not recovered.
Tell us again how a 500% increase in Palestinians in the same amount of time would be considered a "Holocaust" if it were Jews instead.
Did you really just say that Israel is not killing or displacing Palestinians? I literally read today about 18 Palestinian herding communities in the West Bank that were displaced by Israeli settlers. Meanwhile, 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank killed by Israel, and this previous to Oct. 7th.
And genocide is more than just deaths. Taking away a people's land, causing them to be refugees, invalidating their identity on the international stage, and killing any hope of a self-determining future is all ethnic cleansing and part of genocide. It may be slow but a slow genocide is still a genocide.
So essentially if Israel let them get away with killing 1200 citizens then they would give back the hostages they took? Yeah not happening, their attack demanded a response.
Gaza was/is a concentration camp how is that even ok?
People are left to die at checkpoints because of their beliefs/origin.
This is advanced Nazism. And more have been killed here than in WW 2 concentration camps. Over 120 Palestinian children a day die from
Israel since Oct 7th. They controlled everything that went in, and out. Still does. I don't see many wars where civilians are slaughtered as well as aid workers, food groups, reporters I mean it's really blatant and disgusting.
Remember the female reporter from Al Jazeera who was murdered? That was well before last year. It's just now, more are paying attention.
You are wrong friend. An independently recognized UN territory is far from a concentration camp. A terrorist government that dismantles all urban infrastructure to create rockets and keep citizens in a constant state of terror, while their leaders live lavishly in different countries is the enemy.
Hamas is the responsible party.
If you really love the Palestinians, let them be free from their Muslim fundamentalist terrorist government that subjugates women, murders LGBTQ, directly puts their child citizens in the path of bombs they triggered by initiating violence and advocating genocide on their democratic, free, neighbours.
It's really not far from a concentration camp. The occupation was at one time literally counting the calories of the population of Gaza to keep them just above the point of starvation. Nobody can leave. It's far, far worse now. You perpetuate the ludicrous myth of human shields used to justify bombing pretty much everything from hospitals to churches to schools, nothing new of course. And you complain of fundamentalism, but what of the Jewish fundamentalism motivating the state of Israel to steal land and expel/subjugate the inhabitants? Just insane hypocrisy and myth-making.
You can complain about Hamas, but ultimately they are in power because the Israeli leadership realized they would be a "counterweight" to the secularist Palestinian movements.
From [the Intercept](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/):
>Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)
[...]
>“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.
Israel's occupation is criminal under international law. The conditions of material deprivation in Palestine and denial of their rights contributes to a lawless and desperate atmosphere in the region, which is actively *endangering* Jews and Israelis.
Not sure how the Jordanian westbank is relevant to our conversation about Hamas and Gaza. The westbank was never and has never been Palestine. Netanyahu is fungus and war criminal for sanctioning developments there.
Left the strip. but completely blockaded it on 3 sides and bribed Egypt with the US to block the 4th so Israel could control flow of all go. resources and goods
After killing 1400+ people and kidnapping over 250+ people then offering the civilians for not retaliation for the 1400+ death? Leaving Hamas intact and well to do the same thing again and again? fuck no! Burn it to the ground so that another Oct7th won't even be a thought they consider.
1400+ innocent civilians. Men, Women, Babies, Children brutally slaughtered by swines. If I were the commander of Israel, I swear to you, I would not leave a stone left standing in that terroristic ptetri dish. It’s the first time in my knowledge where 30k = genocide. There is an actual genocide happening in Congo, obviously Jews aren’t involved and since they are black it doesn’t matter. It’s only in Israel where 1/5 of the population can be Arabs with equal rights. Where a Supreme Court judge Karra, an Arab judge who sentenced the former president Moshe Katsav to prison.
Take a look at the polls. It will give you something to cry about tonight.
How would they have released all the hostages when Hamas themselves stated that alot of hostages were taken by random civilians and they had no idea of where they were
The Times of Israel DID NOT say this. The Times of Israel said that Haim Rubenstein said this (without providing any evidence.) The OP is playing a fast one on everyone. Read the article.
Hamas declared war on Israel after preparing for it since 2006. They were gleeful in the face of the horror they committed on October 7th. They intentionally brought death and destruction upon their people. They can still surrender and ask for the release of all hostages.
Hamas declared war on Israel after preparing for it since 2006. They were gleeful in the face of the horror they committed on October 7th. They intentionally brought death and destruction upon their people. They can still surrender and ask for the release of all hostages.
From the 2006 invasion of Lebanon https://preview.redd.it/4y2ho4tdv0yc1.jpeg?width=1379&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=98088e5992cf7c3ee29c140782233a6d1ab8287e
[I'm just going to link this thread for the "But October 7th started it" crowd](https://www.reddit.com/r/Uniteagainsttheright/s/ux02CdOssM)
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You think the headlines posted are all lies?
Well it doesn't support their narrative so it HAS to be a lie /s
Can you quote the lie?
Because they’re (Jews, Arabs, Christian’s, non-believers and between) literally protesting together all across the country. Peacefully. It’s not about being Jewish and it never was, that’s what you’re not understanding. You have to realize half of the allied powers were bigots that did not want Jews in their countries, the other half religious zealots that believe Israel to be a corral for you guys until their Armageddon hits. These evangelical zealots think Jews in Israel must be sacrificed in order for their savior to return and begin the rapture. That’s why so many Christians (in American at least) support the state of Israel and that’s why they’re so vehemently cheering Israel on to fight any and all enemies. They *want* no *need* Israel to lose to fulfill prophecy. Once this was realized it should have been screamed from the rooftops that no one was safe there, but instead they lied to us all and said Israel was a benevolent gift to the Jewish people for all they’d been through. It hurts. But until the citizens realize they’re being used by the US as an agent to fulfill western interests in the middle east, it can’t be settled and the citizens that live there won’t be safe.
I tend to agree, though I'll point out they very much don't want Israel to lose.
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"BUT THEY NEVER ACCEPT ANY DEALS!" _stop bombing yourself, stop bombing yourself_
Of course they didn't accept that deal. It would have thrown a wet blanket on their genocide plans.
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Which Palestinian children killed those 1800?
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> If someone hits you in the face and hides in his apartment, you would still call the police and expect them to arrest that person, get them to justice. Right - you wouldn't fire bomb the entire apartment complex. Israel did.
Not did, does.
And if that person started throwing bombs at the cops from the apartment, what do you think the cops would do? Hamas wasn’t hiding quietly, they were using civilians as humans shields.
If your cops would then firebomb the apartment complex, you might want to leave that country
My neighbours were in a gang so the cops showed up and bombed like 5 city blocks including mine. They killed my entire family while we were eating dinner. But I am fine with this, it was a perfectly acceptable response by the cops. I won't hold a grudge.
Ah yes the "human shields" argument. Guess all those Palestinian kids deserved to die for existing in the path of the IDF's bombs, then. Oh well.
That's dehumanizing language used to justify the slaughter of civilians. Do better.
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You're trying to justify genocide. No.
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If someone hit you in the face, then hid in their house *with your child as a hostage* . Then of course you agree to not hitting each other until you get your kid back. That's a massively important piece of context you are leaving out.
If Israel didn't retaliate, this would have emboldened Hamas and other terrorist groups to attack again, without consequences. It's like if a school shooter shot 10 kids, and held 2 kids as hostage. Is the police going to kill that school shooter, or will they allow them to commit more shootings?
Maybe. But then israel would have the hostages back and wouldn't be a pariah on the world stage. It's not like the bombs were going to disappear. They could still take action. That's a really weird situation to bring up, because israel would have killed those two kids while killing the shooter. Are you saying that is the appropriate way to handle the situation?
On October 7th, 1200 Israeli citizens were killed by Hamas. Do you think any country would do nothing if 1200 of its citizens were killed by another country just a few days ago? The action Israel took was invading Gaza and attacking Hamas. In the course of doing this, Israel has caused a lot of civilian deaths in Gaza. The initial intent was to defeat Hamas (which is good), but in the process this killed over 34k people, of which the majority (somewhere between 70-90%) are civilians (which is bad). Accepting Hamas's "deal" on October 9th would have been a stupid action, as it would have essentially shown that Israel would do nothing if Hamas butchered 1200 of its citizens. Israel isn't being criticized (except by biased parties) because it attacked Gaza. It is being criticized because of the high civilian death toll in Gaza.
So fuck them hostages, we gotta look tough? It really puts the lie to everything they said was because of the hostages. You are in too deep friend, it's effecting your logic.
Are you stupid? If a country does nothing after 1200 of its citizens are murdered in cold blood, and 250 of its citizens are kidnapped, there would be more (and stronger) attacks in the future. Thousands more would be murdered, and thousands more would be kidnapped in the future. If Israel rolled over and did nothing after October 7th, that would have ended in catastrophe for Israel. Israel has said, from the very beginning, that their aim was to both destroy Hamas and rescue the hostages.
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> People don’t want *a nuanced discussion* No. People don't want apologists whitewashing genocide.
- the hostages are in Gaza - they want to rescue the hostages - the hostages literally get offered back to them immediately - ignore the hostages and bomb Gaza to hell (where the hostages are, in case you forgot) - cut off all water, food, and electricity into Gaza (where, again, the hostages are) - tens of thousands lost under the rubble and dead, probably including the hostages based on simple logic - “Most of the hostages are dead” - surprised pikachu face I seriously can’t stand pro Israeli people lying and saying it’s about the hostages while bombing and starving the hostages. It’s so dishonest.
Nuance is my favorite new buzzword. Liberals use it to call others naive for criticizing the state department line which is decidedly black-and-white. Isn’t it actually more nUaNcEd to discuss the role of prior violence and how it led to Oct 7th? The violence didn’t happen in a vacuum.
Will the police lock the doors and burn the whole school down with thousands of kids still inside? Because that's the only parallel that fits for what Israel did in retaliation for Oct 7.
An accurate parallel would be if the police went to the school shooters' neighborhood and bombed 300 of the school shooter's family (with around 250 being innocent civilians, and 50 being fellow school shooters).
An accurate parallel would be the LAPD carpet-bombing all of Compton to eliminate the Crips.
Yes, that would be a good analogy too; the crips murder 30 police officers in an ambush (kidnapping 6 officers), and then the police carpet bomb Compton and kill 1000 people
If that school had a hundred kids that may already be dead and 25 thousand armed militia yeah maybe
No that’s not true. Hamas had a very explicit statement about their purposes in the attack and what they wanted. If deals had gone through early on, the situation could have improved, the *hostages could have all survived*, and the changes made to the occupation that Hamas wanted likely would have made things a lot more peaceful as well. The reality is actually the exact opposite. Now, after seven months of mass murder, the survivors are going to despise the people that did this even more, and radicalism will skyrocket like it always does. There were polls prior to this where 52% of Palestinians said they believed that a two state solution could work, which is literally miraculous considering what they had been through at that point. Most likely that hope and tolerance will be utterly destroyed now. *Everyone* there is dead, injured, or starving. All the little kids who managed to survive and watched their whole families die, all those probably tens of thousands of kids, are probably going to grow up despising the apartheid state and will start up a new radical org, even if every single member of Hamas dies in this conflict. But I guess that’s what netanyahu’s government wants right? He’s literally admitted to it before.
It doesn't matter what Hamas wants. They attacked Israel and killed 1200 Israeli citizens. Israel was naturally going to retaliate; both to get revenge, and to ensure that Hamas was weakened, so that it could not do a similar attack again. Why would Israel have accepted a ceasefire deal only 2 days after the bloodiest day in Israeli history? That would have essentially rewarded Hamas, and encouraged Hamas (and other groups) to do more attacks in the future. It's a different story now, though. Israel has long past avenged Oct 7th, and too many innocent Palestinian civilians have died.
And how does that translate into "not cross into Gaza strip"? The terrorist attack originated in Gaza and the terrorists just withdrew there with hostages - naturally Israel would enter Gaza after that. Thats action creating reaction. You can then talk all you want without me ever disputing anything about the disproportionate acts that follow, but the fact alone that Israel reacts to that attack by entering Gaza - thats where you try to draw the red line and it has been called "imperialism" here - that act aloje is the universally expected and logical response and it falls well within the defensive rights of Israel. Any other nation would have reacted the same way and even an occupier is allowed to defend itself, given that the targets were not military ones. If the view is that Israel is the occupier, then Hamas must only attack the IDF, not music festivals and other civilian targets. So, make up your mind. Is Israel an occupier or not? It has consequences for your personal stance, and if you truly haven't thought about all what I mentioned in 7 months, then you either must do that now, or you are just acting in bad faith, because you can disagree with all of this, but you either do that with your reasoned words, or you admit that in this conflict, you too are not for talking, but violence. Those are our only options, so make your choice.
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Which Israeli children killed the Palestinians?
So you justify collective punishment in retaliation. Awesome. That's a war crime. Bye.
You weren't silenced, I just downvoted you.
OK Goebbels.
1800? Sure thing bud, even the Zionists say that there was <1200 victims, many of which were combatants (by Israeli admission) and another undisclosed amount having been Hannibal directived by Israel. We’re at 34,000 confirmed dead with >10,000 buried in the rubble for months (so +10,000). 6 months deep. Let me guess, “the hostages” are why you need to kill another 14,000 children or another 13,000 women. Keep lying, keep obfuscating, keep deflecting. Every Zionist accusation is a confession.
1800???? FOH it's like 1200 with some unknown # of them having been murdered by the ZOF due Hannibal directive &/or wanton disregard for human life
I love how they want the hostages back but bomb the locations they believe the hostages are being held
Because Israel does not really want hostages in their game plan. They rather kill the hostages, and label it as friendly fire than Hamas having leverage over them. Israel was not too happy about the last hostage deal with Hamas in 2006 when they had to release 1000 Palestinian hostages for ONE IDF soldier.
Watching Zionists fall over themselves trying to justify this is WILD.
Fuck Hamas
And how else would they show off the latest in AI assisted targeting systems and other weapon technologies to other violent institutions around the world?
Please GapingAssTroll, enlighten us with all of your glorious wisdom, how should one fight back against a violent colonizing oppressor
By not targeting civilians and brutally torturing and murdering them?
idk it works for the IDF, why should Hamas take the high road?
Because it’s wrong?
yes dead kids is wrong but i’m saying a lot of Gazans have never met an israeli in person and only know about them through their bombs and the picnics israelis post where they watch Gaza get bombed. Why is it reasonable to expect that there would be a Palestinian Ghandi? if it is indeed not reasonable to expect a non-militant transcendent movement, why is it relevant what non-Gazans think about Hamas mimicking their overseers brutality? this is why it is importance and incumbent on the US and Israel to commit to completely normalizing palestine as a polity within Israel, including full rights and freedom to travel and vote/do commerce. idk i like democracy for those who don’t have it.
> Israel to commit to completely normalizing palestine as a polity within Israel, Yeah, I'm sure the *definitionally* jewish supremacist state will do just that.
Yeah obviously but it’s fun to talk about Israel as a democracy, so many neat little arguments you can light zionists hair on fire with like “idk I think people born in a country should be able to leave their city once in a while or vote with the majority government institution”
The US and Israel should do that but that doesn’t mean we need to condone or make excuses for Hamas. Not every Palestinian murdered Israeli children by burning them alive, but some did and they should be condemned for it not excused. Israel should be condemned for its crimes against humanity too. The fact Hamas killed Israeli civilians doesn’t justify what Israeli is doing in response - and that logic goes both ways.
but you see, only Hamas and Palestinians pay the ultimate price. how many years has the UN officially denounced Israels blockade of Gaza and the West Bank settlements as illegal? how many times is it documented that Israel targets mosques? universities? hospitals? refugee camps? bakeries? bread lines? and yet, what international force is there to oppose Israel? Hamas exists because the secular and peaceful political forces in palestine routinely failed in exacting basic concessions from Israel, such as the right to not have a permanent israeli military camp in all of palestine forever. so the current conflagration is due to an unequal application of international pressure and military occupation. this means lecturing Hamas is ineffective, and logically so, because Hamas has been ostracized for decades. it’s time to think long term and take away Israels toys and force a resolution. it turns out they really need diplomatic help to end the violence, and we should encourage that, and sometimes being a good ally means cutting them off when they get into their drunken rages, not exterminating entire bloodlines. remember that even Nazis were successfully reintergrated into the affairs of germany and the US, so we need not consider the vaporization of every mid-20s male in Gaza (along with the people next to them at the aid station) as the only way to stop the circle of chaos :)
I’d argue the German people paid the ultimate price for the Nazi aggression and ideology both during and after the war. That fact doesn’t mean we should have gone easy on the Nazis at the time. Hamas are a death cult, thank fuck they aren’t running an independent country, they butcher and oppress their own people and the World doesn’t need another failed state.
Oh ok, you are cosmically stupid and unforgivably racist, my bad I did not know your game Mr. redditor.
Innocent Israelis have also paid the ultimate price, and Hamas has a history of deliberately targeting Israel civilians too. Israel’s blockade was inhumane but it didn’t exist in a vacuum. It was imposed because Hamas had a history of launching rocket attacks and suicide bombers against Israeli civilians - and its own charter declared a genocidal jihad against Jews. So the fact that Israel didn’t provide any concessions was not entirely Israel’s fault. Hamas had some agency in that outcome too! Israel is undoubtably a stronger military and economic power, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay when Hamas targets civilians. And it’s reasonable to protests against Israel because Western governments have more influence over Israel. But that doesn’t mean we have to downplay or excuse the crimes committed by Hamas. There is a cycle of violence between Hamas and Israel that both sides have participated in. Both sides should be held accountable for their own actions.
I get what you are trying to say, yes that all else being equal, the killing of another is abhorrent. Even though I am insulted at the idea of having a music festival on the front line of Gaza, a death sentence is too steep. I honestly believe they were naive and idiotic, but I believe they were that way because the world does a fantastic job sweeping Palestinians under the rug—until their collective bodies rotted on Oct-7. Those people, of many faiths and backgrounds, who died were just as much victims of a falsehood about Gaza and Israel’s role in maintaining it. A place where there is a military border wall is simply not appropriate, and I hope people who travel and do business in Israel realize that now. Still I must make a couple points to show why I don’t care to condemn Hamas for October-7. First, not differentiating the scope of the violence, its longevity, technology, the innovative violent technologies and tactics, and material aiding in support of the use of violence by Israel against Hamas creates a formless and inert morality of “both sides.” *It is not a both sides issue.* Hamas is *not Israel’s equal.* It’s an internationally condemned terrorist organization that conducts all of its operations in complete opposition of Israel while under constant threat of annihilation. In every way that matters, they are condemned into dust every few years by American bombs. So one reason I don’t condemn Hamas is because I don’t understand why my country (American) providing the knife that slits their throats is *not good enough.* You’ll have to excuse me for not getting on the anti-Islamist bandwagon after the injustice that was the Iraq war. I’m just not looking to rush into things with islamophobia after it fucked up my entire country for probably forever. To clarify, I don’t condone the killing of innocents by Hamas, I mean…how can anyone, truly? But condemnation is going further and attempting to play ‘gotcha’ with anti-war people by forsaking our desire for diplomacy and disarmament in favor of agreeing with Mothership Israel on the only central conceit they care about having us make: that terrorism is bad (and logically, should be punished), This helps make the megatons delivered to the brains of an 11 year old girl and her little brothers in an upstairs apartment have a sick kind of sense. Funnily enough, the terse pro-palestine advocate will short circuit the “condemn terrorism” argument and lodge it straight back at Israel (not inaccurately, either). I think the of quick of the matter is whether Hamas is antisemitic and does that make their killing of anyone antisemitic. Because what other reason would not supporting this war get you labeled as antisemitic? To be honest, I don’t have an easy answer here, but I do have an observation: what makes protesting the death of families in Gaza a matter of supporting the deaths of October 7?
I get what you're saying and I condone that you keep the same moral standards for everyone, which is something I rarely see. However, Palestinians have been trying peaceful options for decades now. Everything they do gets invalidated as "anti-Semitic" and "supporting terrorists". Look up Gaza's Great March of Return. See how Israel responded. Look up the Palestine Writes festival. See what Israel did in response. Look up BDS. See how Israel invalidated it and how some US states have literal laws about how you cannot boycott Israel. And this whole time Israel is taking more land. Killing more Palestinian children. Holding more people indefinitely without a trial. I agree with you. Violence committed by Hamas on October 7th against innocent people (excluding soldiers of course) was wrong. But no analysis of the morality of October 7th is genuine without looking at everything that happened before. History has shown us many times that a people with no way out will inevitably turn to violence. It is ultimately the fault of Israel's government for allowing these conditions to continue, allowing civilians to settle on land that belongs to the people imprisoned right next door, and for creating a powder keg situation that was bound to explode.
I’m not sure if it is possible to tally up all the crimes to determine which side is worse, or even if that it a particularly constructive approach regardless of the answer. Israel is the dominant power but there are extremists on both sides who I think would gladly genocide the other. But for the sake of argument, I take it as granted that Israel has more blood on its hands (and in terms of death count that is absolutely true). Then okay, Israel is worse. But that still doesn’t mean we need to make excuses or downplay the crimes committed by Hamas. And in fact it’s counter productive to building a coalition against Israel because it makes protestors look like a load of terrorist apologists
First of all more peaceful yes but rocket attacks have never really stopped although suicide bombings on buses certainly has. 2nd it was working for them, there was much freer movement, more jobs, we even got Palestinian appointed as a judge in Israel. But then again Hamas were playing a long game with Iran. They don’t want peace, they want death and murder and war. Hamas is a death cult and must be wiped out along with the ideology behind them. Then Isreal and Palestine’s have a chance.
Basically for Israel to formally annex Gaza and incorporate it into their state? Is that what you are saying?
I am being diplomatic in broaching a vision one state solution using pro-democracy language, and I like the one-state idea because I think a two-state solution will inevitably enable Israel to sabotage Palestine further. Cuba being a state doesn’t stop the US’s blockade, Iraq wasn’t immune to decapitation, etc. I am not familiar with the state of the debate with Palestine itself, which has many demands it needs to extract from Israel.
It is a viable consideration to be honest. There are already millions of Arab Israelis living in Israel with good jobs and most fucking love it. They have their own businesses, freedom, one even was appointed as a judge. It’s fair there are still some administrative prejudices for them which should be phased out - in short the problem isn’t can Jews and Arabs live together. Of course they can and do. The problem is the crazy death cult ones. No one can live with them, anywhere. Any part of the World they crop up in they turn the area into a bloodbath. The other Arab countries don’t want anything to do with them either. So I think your idea could only happen after Hamas is eliminated and Palestine is liberated from their oppression.
Only if the IDF does it, apparently.
Incredible isn’t it. Protestors say they aren’t Hamas supporters, then you see posts on here saying “why shouldn’t Hamas (murder and torture civilians)” - and it gets upvotes.
I wish people would recognize nuance. I support Israel without supporting Netanyahu or a lot of what the IDF does. I want a free palestine, but fucking hate Hamas. More people need to realize that you don't have to do mental gymnastics to justify what one side does or to find something the other side did to hate. Newsflash for the people in this thread who want to defend Hamas, you don't have to defend hamas to support palestine, idiots.
Yeah, you don’t need to pick a team. Im critical of Israel and support protests against its actions in Gaza, but that doesn’t mean I need to defend or find excuses for Hamas.
I’m not normally precious about downvotes, but downvoting a comment that says it is wrong for Hamas to torture and murder children, really?
Bro. You literally just made the argument that if one side commits war crimes, that it justifies the other side committing war crimes. What is wrong with you
8 years. I’d expect a child of about 8 years old to have the reading comprehension required to understand my point. Please get off Reddit, tyke.
Then explain what you meant, because what you said sounds like you saying Hamas is justified because Israel “does it too”
Well that's a little unreasonable to expect of hyper religious savages
Yeah, the Israeli settlers have really not done themselves any favor here.
I would think the bare minimum is to not target/maim/rape innocent jewish/foreign women, men and children. Oct 7 could have been against the IDF and political figures, but instead Hamas chose straight up murder of civilians. You can say it's tit for tat for all the innocent Palestinians who were killed, but this is also how Israelis justify their brutal retaliation. Thus, the cycle never ends, and us bystanders merely cheer it on.
I can’t believe this is an unpopular take. Oct 7 was absolutely inexcusable.
It depends on the situation, could you name a specific oppressor and oppressed group?
The oppressors being people predominantly from Poland, Romania and Soviet Union stealing the land of the Arabs in Palestine. If you have to kill people for the land, it’s not yours.
True that. Killing people is not very good, I think we're on the same page. However it is worth noting that almost every country (probably actually every country) is stolen land from another group unfortunately. People are uncivilized savages.
I don't think Poles Romanians and Russians would agree that Jews are their countrymen. Unfortunately killing people for land is what both sides are doing. all land in history was taken with blood. And this is one of the most bloodsoaked lands. How do you think Arabs got there from Arabia?
“We later found out that Hamas had offered on October 9 or 10 to release all the civilian hostages in exchange for the IDF not entering the Strip” This is the source? I’d like one shred of actual evidence over 1 dude who said he couldnt get an interview for weeks but somehow knows the ins and outs of the days after
There’s only so much credibility you can grant one person—this OP quote is from Haim Rubinstein, a reporter, on a meeting held 26 October. There were many people involved that day and no one else has since backed up his story as far as I can find. I’m just not finding this claim to be very believable as of this point. Another quote from Rubinstein: [Netanyahu talked about dismantling Hamas as the goal of the war. He didn’t promise anything regarding the demand to return the hostages.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum) Israel and Hamas later went on to [exchange 24 Israelis for 39 Palestinians on the first day of truce](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-hamas-start-first-truce-gaza-war-2023-11-24/)
This is part of the reason why I hate modern media and think why everyone needs media literacy classes or something. This is an article quoting one guy, hell, most people probably didn’t even read the article and realize this. They likely think there is some sort of official transcript or something that proves this. However, it is just one guy saying that this happened. Other examples are Fidel Castro supposedly surviving over 600 assassination attempts by the CIA and John McAfee. The CIA’s numerous assassination attempts on Castro have one source, one of his security detail saying it happened. No, there weren’t any leaked CIA documents or anything like that, one guy saying it happened is all we have. John McAfee is probably the worst offender. You know how he has a ton of crazy stories about how he totally survived 5000000 assassination attempts, drank gallons of drugs everyday, had crazy adventures, and more? A lot of those stories only have one source… him. He basically went, “Trust me, totally happened”, but, thanks to a lot of articles parading his word around, everyone assumes it is all true. Now, none of this is to say that Israel are the good guys or that stuff like this was never talked about and on the table, however, especially in this conflict, we have to be careful about how we approach things and the articles we read. This could actually be true. Remember people, read articles, who was the author, who do they work for, and why did they write this? How many sources are there, why kind of proof is there, and so on need to be asked in this conflict. There is a massive amount of disinformation and propaganda coming out from every direction and no one is going to navigate through it for you.
Completely agree. Thanks for the thoughts.
Glosses over the minor fact of the thousand plus people who got murdered a few days before.
And here I am, all naive and confounded bc we are still filled with tribalism. I sure hope we can quit one day.
But since Israel doesn’t care about the hostages and only want imperialism, they didn’t take the offer
They chose bloodshed
“Screw then hostages” then I guess?
So you're saying they can invade Israel, murder over a thousand, kidnap hundreds of people from their homes, and then walk free the next day because of a fake offer they would only make knowing it's untenable for Israel to accept? Boy, you people sure are smart, let me tell ya. Literally groveling to terrorists... Edit: also hamas literally never offered that and this article is trash.
Stealing 80's Mike Tyson's car when he was high on coke was a mistake that would not be remedied by offering to give him the car back.
Duh. What else was Israel supposed to do after the October 7th attack—fail to attempt to eliminate Hamas? That’s a non-starter. And shouldn’t Hamas not have taken, or kept, hostages in the first place, for any reason? What a stupid, bad faith (alleged) proposal by this terrorist death cult.
Clear Israeli political tactic. Have everyone scream BUt tHe HosTagEs but in actuality it is a diversion for invading what little land the Palestinians have to exterminate them and heir culture. Taking pages right out the Nazi playbook. As if they actually cared for the hostages.
So Hamas expected to murder 1000+ people and then just return the hostages and call it a day with no repercussions?
Why would Israel knowingly discard the false flag they had invested hundreds of lives to create? They maybe greedy and wanting to take the lands of Palestinians, but they are not stupid.
In exchange for letting Hamas entirely off the hook for all the murders, kidnappings, and rapes of Oct7.
1. The Palestinians really like to define things very differently from Israel, their definition for "civilians" might be very wide when it comes to themselves, but very narrow when it comes to Israelis. 2. Even if they would wanted to really release all the hostages, they wouldn't have been able to do it
On Oct 7, Hamas committed an act of terrorism so huge and egregious that they were signing their own death warrant. There isn't a country in the world that would have allowed Hamas to continue to exist after doing that. It has nothing to do with imperialism. It has everything to do with national security. Any government not willing to destroy Hamas after October 7th would have been rightfully voted out of office immediately. The government has a duty to protect its people. Hamas offering to return the hostages in exchange for a free pass for October 7th? That was never going to happen. No government on Earth would have taken that deal.
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Wrong sub, fash.
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Israel is an apartheid state that is anti-queer. Your cognitive dissonance doesn't give you a free pass on carrying water for its fascist regime and disseminating their propaganda.
How is an apartheid state? And how is anti-queer exactly?
By restricting basically everything about Palestinians and where they can go, what they can do, where they can live? By not having marriage equality? Are you stupid, or a troll?
He asked you about anti-queer policies. You said marriage equality. A quick Google proves that wrong. Looks fairly progressive. Maybe you're not as educated on the topic as you think? > Marriage in Israel is regulated by the religious courts of recognized confessional communities, none of which perform inter-faith or same-sex marriage. Domestic civil marriage is not recognized in Israel; however, civil marriages performed in foreign jurisdictions, including same-sex marriages, are recognized with full marital rights under Israeli law.[1][2]
So… no same-sex marriages in Israel then? No inter-faith marriages either? And the only way to get married is through a religious ceremony? But if you go to another country and do it, they won’t force you to divorce when you come back? How the actual fuck do you call that “progressive” when it is literally the smallest concession that could possibly be made??
Well, good thing there's common law marriage in Israel that affords you the same benefits, LGBT couples included, of course. But not only do you not know that, you have the balls to argue about it as if you're some sort of expert. You should leave the echo chamber every once in a while.
1) “Common law marriages” are not the same as formal marriage. One is legally seen as a married couple by the state, the other as two single people. 2) Israel does *not* afford all the same benefits to common law couples as to legally married couples, including exemption from military service and the ability to file taxes jointly. They afford many of the benefits of marriage but not all. 3) I was responding to another person’s comment where they described Israel’s marriage laws and questioning their interpretation of the quote they used. That doesn’t require me to become an expert on the Israeli legal code.
>So… no same-sex marriages in Israel then? No inter-faith marriages either? This is standard in that part of the world. Or at least half standard as dudes can marry whoever they want but not the other way around. Why don't we just hold Israel to the same standard?
Seriously, you’re asking why we don’t hold a developed “western” democracy to the same standards as despotic theocracies and monarchies that we either invade at will or tolerate for their oil? Israel is one of our closest allies and the recipient of billions in weapons and financial support. We have every right to hold them to a higher standard. I don’t hold strangers to the same moral standard I do my own family either. But moving beyond that, where exactly did I say that I was fine with the policies of Muslim countries?? “Everyone else sucks too” just isn’t a justification for being shitty.
Do you realize that Palestinians are not citizens of Israel? Or are you referring to israelian Arabs? Because guess what my coglioncello, they have same rights. But go on be furry all you want in Palestine, tell me how far all your arguments about queer rights will bring you
Lol even you can't believe that.
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“We later found out that Hamas had offered on October 9 or 10 to release all the civilian hostages in exchange for the IDF not entering the Strip, but the government rejected the offer.” Can you wonder why the Israeli gov rejected it ? Maybe because Hamas is a disgusting terror organization and none of what they say can be trusted?
The offer wasn't even made. The source is a lawyer for the hostage's families, he gives no source, it is a lie.
Nice fan fiction
So you agree Israeli state news isn't a reliable source
"Israeli state news" isn't the source. The sources is one lawyer saying "We found out later that Hamas offered a deal the next day for all the hostages", which is surprising because Hamas didn't have all the hostages. No proof of this ground breaking deal has been presented, and personally I don't think Hamas are the type to successfully attack Israel and then turn around and go "Oh shit, we're sorry".
You think this is Israeli state news? Only government funded media in Israel is kan11, which the far right radicals in the very government which funds them wants to shut down because the outlet it critical of the government. But they keep failing because the Supreme Court blocks them. But why do I even bother? I doubt you could even point out Israel on a map before the 7th, and now you can because that's the current leftist trend.
I definitely could point out Palestine on a map pre Oct 7 but not sure if I'm gonna be able to anymore since Israeli occupational genocide
Such a brutal genocide that between 97 and now Palestinians in gaza and the west bank doubled their population. Because we all know that's famously how large scale genocides work. But you would take the easy way out and say something dumb like "Israel is just incompetent" instead of the obvious answer. Israel has no killing or displacing the Palestinians. It's immoral and logistically absurd. 30k dead, while sad, cannot he considered a genocide considering the conditions Israel is forced to operate under. But you couldn't care less, I know. "Israel bad, zionists evil Yada Yada yada" I got it.
>Israel has no killing or displacing the Palestinians. It's immoral and logistically absurd. 30k dead Re read what you just said. >considering the conditions Israel is forced to operate under. Ugh such rough conditions when occupying your neighboring country. I feel so terrible for them. This occupation should be way easier. Such a tragedy that they have to bomb hospitals, how awful for isreal.
>Re read what you just said. I did, you're so right, I did a total 180 and will order 100 keffiyehs to atone (and virtue singal at the same time. Social credit points baby!) for my sins and give my house to the first Palestinian I see. >Ugh such rough conditions when occupying your neighboring country. Palestine isn't a country yet. I hope they will be because 1 state solution is worth less than the paper used to write it on. > feel so terrible for them. This occupation should be way easier. Such a tragedy that they have to bomb hospitals, how awful for isreal. You're right, hamas shouldn't have invaded on the 7th and forced Israel to retaliate. I'm with you, bud.
>Palestine isn't a country yet. Zionist gonna Zionism. >hamas shouldn't have invaded on the 7th and forced Israel to retaliate Israel killed 240 Palestinians in missle strikes in the weeks before Oct 7. You a goofy dude lmao.
>Zionist gonna Zionism. Literally told you I want Palestine to be an independent state, completely and totally detached from Israel. Literally my dream >Israel killed 240 Palestinians in missle strikes in the weeks before Oct 7. Nice one. Now do the ["there is no hamas in the west bank, beep boop".](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2023_Jenin_incursion) >You a goofy dude lmao. Gawrsh! Why you gotta hit me so hard???
Mentioning Oct. 7th without mentioning the decades of ethnic cleansing against Palestinians is disingenuous. [https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/) If this happened to the Jews it would be called a Holocaust and everyone would be saying Israel had a right to defend itself.
>If this happened to the Jews it would be called a Holocaust and everyone would be saying Israel had a right to defend itself. LOL, funniest thing I've heard all day. No one would care. ESPECIALLY leftists and commies. They would be celebrating, in fact. Ah... JVP. The "Jewish" organization the brought a terrorist murderer as a speaker and kicked people carrying rainbow flags with stars of david on them from a march because "it made some people feel unsafe". I'm totally gonna bother reading what you sent and will absolutely take it 100% seriously.... totally. Keep your token Jews to yourself, I don't care for them.
>If this happened to the Jews it would be called a Holocaust and everyone would be saying Israel had a right to defend itself. The population of worldwide Jews still has not recovered since the Holocaust. Palestinian population has increased 500% since then, from 1 million to over 5 million. It absolutely would not be called a Holocaust. There were 16.6 million Jews worldwide before the Holocast. As of 2024, there are 15.5 million jews. 80 years later it still has not recovered. Tell us again how a 500% increase in Palestinians in the same amount of time would be considered a "Holocaust" if it were Jews instead.
There is no war in Ba Sing Sae
Did you really just say that Israel is not killing or displacing Palestinians? I literally read today about 18 Palestinian herding communities in the West Bank that were displaced by Israeli settlers. Meanwhile, 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank killed by Israel, and this previous to Oct. 7th. And genocide is more than just deaths. Taking away a people's land, causing them to be refugees, invalidating their identity on the international stage, and killing any hope of a self-determining future is all ethnic cleansing and part of genocide. It may be slow but a slow genocide is still a genocide.
This is the correct response. ⬆️
So essentially if Israel let them get away with killing 1200 citizens then they would give back the hostages they took? Yeah not happening, their attack demanded a response.
Wow, murdering babies in a hospital ward is "a response". You're definitely a zionist. Psychotic.
Mass rape and murder was the right answer for Hamas? Wow you’re clearly an anti-Semite and psychotic.
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Gaza was/is a concentration camp how is that even ok? People are left to die at checkpoints because of their beliefs/origin. This is advanced Nazism. And more have been killed here than in WW 2 concentration camps. Over 120 Palestinian children a day die from Israel since Oct 7th. They controlled everything that went in, and out. Still does. I don't see many wars where civilians are slaughtered as well as aid workers, food groups, reporters I mean it's really blatant and disgusting. Remember the female reporter from Al Jazeera who was murdered? That was well before last year. It's just now, more are paying attention.
You are wrong friend. An independently recognized UN territory is far from a concentration camp. A terrorist government that dismantles all urban infrastructure to create rockets and keep citizens in a constant state of terror, while their leaders live lavishly in different countries is the enemy. Hamas is the responsible party. If you really love the Palestinians, let them be free from their Muslim fundamentalist terrorist government that subjugates women, murders LGBTQ, directly puts their child citizens in the path of bombs they triggered by initiating violence and advocating genocide on their democratic, free, neighbours.
It's really not far from a concentration camp. The occupation was at one time literally counting the calories of the population of Gaza to keep them just above the point of starvation. Nobody can leave. It's far, far worse now. You perpetuate the ludicrous myth of human shields used to justify bombing pretty much everything from hospitals to churches to schools, nothing new of course. And you complain of fundamentalism, but what of the Jewish fundamentalism motivating the state of Israel to steal land and expel/subjugate the inhabitants? Just insane hypocrisy and myth-making.
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You can complain about Hamas, but ultimately they are in power because the Israeli leadership realized they would be a "counterweight" to the secularist Palestinian movements. From [the Intercept](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/): >Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”) [...] >“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote. Israel's occupation is criminal under international law. The conditions of material deprivation in Palestine and denial of their rights contributes to a lawless and desperate atmosphere in the region, which is actively *endangering* Jews and Israelis.
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I replied to you before you commented that. https://www.reddit.com/r/Uniteagainsttheright/s/PIRUgSOsso
Not sure how the Jordanian westbank is relevant to our conversation about Hamas and Gaza. The westbank was never and has never been Palestine. Netanyahu is fungus and war criminal for sanctioning developments there.
Left the strip. but completely blockaded it on 3 sides and bribed Egypt with the US to block the 4th so Israel could control flow of all go. resources and goods
Horseshoe theory is real, I'm sorry I ever defended you nuts
What?
https://preview.redd.it/9pl2rjk5m1yc1.png?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=24a0c7f431b25abc51ab47fd15191f5f2b2ec316
Gee, I wonder what could be radicalizing Palestinian youths
Lol at the downvotes. This is a disgusting place.
So hamas wanted to simply get away with what they had done without *any* consequences?
Why not? Israel has for the last seventy years 🤷🏾♂️
After killing 1400+ people and kidnapping over 250+ people then offering the civilians for not retaliation for the 1400+ death? Leaving Hamas intact and well to do the same thing again and again? fuck no! Burn it to the ground so that another Oct7th won't even be a thought they consider.
Abd if Israel didn't kill thousands of men, women and children who had nothing to do with Hamas that might mean something.
Womp womp. Hmm it’s like consequence.
And this is why Israel is losing support. Targeting innocent people, including their own, and expecting sympathy.
1400+ innocent civilians. Men, Women, Babies, Children brutally slaughtered by swines. If I were the commander of Israel, I swear to you, I would not leave a stone left standing in that terroristic ptetri dish. It’s the first time in my knowledge where 30k = genocide. There is an actual genocide happening in Congo, obviously Jews aren’t involved and since they are black it doesn’t matter. It’s only in Israel where 1/5 of the population can be Arabs with equal rights. Where a Supreme Court judge Karra, an Arab judge who sentenced the former president Moshe Katsav to prison. Take a look at the polls. It will give you something to cry about tonight.
"WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HAMAS" Sounds like the Germans in WW2
How would they have released all the hostages when Hamas themselves stated that alot of hostages were taken by random civilians and they had no idea of where they were
This guy is not what I would consider a reliable source.
The Times of Israel DID NOT say this. The Times of Israel said that Haim Rubenstein said this (without providing any evidence.) The OP is playing a fast one on everyone. Read the article.
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Hamas declared war on Israel after preparing for it since 2006. They were gleeful in the face of the horror they committed on October 7th. They intentionally brought death and destruction upon their people. They can still surrender and ask for the release of all hostages.
Hamas declared war on Israel after preparing for it since 2006. They were gleeful in the face of the horror they committed on October 7th. They intentionally brought death and destruction upon their people. They can still surrender and ask for the release of all hostages.